Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Tipping people over the edge since 2017 (with Jameela Jamil)

Episode Date: June 4, 2025

Jane had an accident just before recording — apologies if you can hear her toes squelching... Jane and Fi also chat care, foxes, and maths. Plus, actress and presenter Jameela Jamil joins them to talk about toxic masculinity, modern-day beauty standards, and her new podcast 'Wrong Turns'. If you want to contribute to our playlist, you can do that here: Off Air with Jane & Fi: Official Playlist - https://open.spotify.com/playlist/3qIjhtS9sprg864IXC96he?si=9QZ7asvjQv2Zj4yaqP2P1Q If you want to come and see us at Fringe by the Sea, you can buy tickets here: www.fringebythesea.com/fi-jane-and-judy-murray/ And if you fancy sending us a postcard, the address is: Jane and FiTimes Radio, News UK1 London Bridge StreetLondonSE1 9GFIf you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] next book club pick has been announced! We’ll be reading Leonard and Hungry Paul by Rónán Hession.Follow us on Instagram! @janeandfiPodcast Producer: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

People having lunch under very beautiful blue skies, they look a bit shady, these individuals, don't they? They look as though they probably are planning a little bit of nastiness, I'm going to suggest that. Jane! Well no, I'm just a bit of a bank job. No, no. That's how they look. That is how they look. This episode of Off Air is brought to you by Thomas Fudge's Biscuits. We've got a bit of a reputation, haven't we Jane?

Our desk here at Times Towers is pretty famous for having the most delicious sweet treats in the office. Yep, guilty as charged. But we're not into any old treats, no sir. Only the most elevated biscuit makes the grade. Because we're so classy. May we introduce you to Thomas Fudges, born from the expert British craftsmanship

of inventive Dorset bakers in 1916, Thomas Fudge's Florentines are an indulgent blend of Moorish caramel, exquisite almonds and luscious fruits draped in silky smooth Belgian chocolate. Oh, you've said a few key words there, Fee. Exquisite, Moorish. Exactly the way my colleagues would describe me, I'm sure. Did you say sophisticated? I didn't, but I can. Just like the biscuits you're very sophisticated, darling. And like you, Thomas Fudges believes that indulgence is an art form and it should

be done properly or not at all, Jane. I concur. Thomas Fudges, hats off to remarkable biscuits. So Eve has excelled herself by making sure that Lady Jane Garvey has got the right chair for the podcast. But we've had an accident already today, haven't we? We had a spillage. Yeah, well I've just spilled my flat white, well the dregs of my flat white, all over my trousers and irritatingly my left foot. So there's that sticky, sticky coffee residue between my toes because I've had a pedicure so I've got my... what's the matter? Do you want to wipe? Do you want me to go and get you a wipe? No, I don't need a wipe. I've dealt with it.

Do you know what? Many, many young men in the office rushed forward with sanitizing wipes. It was caused by a sudden jolt, wasn't it, basically, to our ego. One of our team had been looking up how many awards this podcast had won and it's none. Not surprisingly, I dropped my coffee. I mean, who wouldn't? Oh, dear, Eme. Right. Thank you for your emails, which have flooded into Jane and Fee at times.radio. And I wanted to bring back into the conversation the lady who had a take on Jane Mulcairn's,

Jamal's take on Lewis. This is the person who felt that she was being slightly elbowed out of her community because of the people she describes as the capitalist boomer hippie couples in Waitrose arguing about the price of burrata. And she's rethought it all and she doesn't want to be thought of as unpleasant. Well we never thought she was, did we? No. No. Thanks for reading out my email, Susbie. I realise I might have come across as a bit bitter and twisted. Oh, don't worry about that with us. I frequently come across as bitter and twisted. Not at all. I'm okay with how my life has panned out, she says, but I do like to keep an eye on the enemy. And I've had a few weeks free access to the Daily Telegraph.

Oh, that's really not going to help, Vee. because the one thing that The Daily Telegraph absolutely is, is a vessel for envy and rancour. Well I'm now as irritated as Vee. Just read the headline of that one. As irritated as Vee, because she sent us this following article with the headline, cost of comfortable retirement surpasses 60K a year. Wealthy retirees hit with four figure increase to maintain lifestyle standards. And what really gets to me and I imagine it will have got to be as well as the stock photograph that they've included with this article, this profoundly disturbing and irritating article.

They couldn't look more bloody jaunty, could they, these two herbits? So we've got two older people, but I'd say that they're well past retirement actually. They look about, they look 75 don't they? I mean he's happy but he looks knackered. Anyway, they're driving an open-topped car. She's got quite a twinkle. She's definitely got a twinkle, yep. And they're waving, they're waving to us. Look at us.

Where are they going? We've got the outside cabins on the cruise. I tell you what, they're just going to the doctor's, aren't they? Well, maybe. Yeah, it's the open top sports car and the really smug, jaunty, oh, can't stand it. Well, just to balance that out as well, in case those two retirees, those happy, luxurious retirees are from West Sussex or East Sussex, a very kind correspondent who got in touch about the delights of living in Stenning. And thank you very much indeed for that. I know you didn't want to be mentioned on the podcast so I won't say your name, but it was such a kind, thoughtful email. She did point out that all of that part of the country is now

going to come under a unitary trust and people aren't sure that the services will actually be maintained in the right way because it's a very diverse set of communities that are all being bundled together. So I'd say you know maybe that car will be traded in, maybe they won't be flashing headlights in a Waitrose car park at other happy retiree couples when everything is piled into one resource and maybe it is doled out in an equal way. It's just good to get the words unitary and trust, isn't it? So early in the podcast today.

Thank you for that. It certainly is. Very informative. Now, I was struck today, I don't know if you've read this article by Esther Walker in The Times and on thetimes.com. The headline is, Needy Teens and Elderly Parents, I'm in the Squeeze. And it was quite interesting, it's an interesting article, but the comments underneath were interesting too. Basically, to sum up what Esther Walker's writing about, it's that spot that many people find themselves

in where they have teenage children and parents who are becoming inevitably just frailer and in some cases really quite infirm and that can put you on the old, well it's quite difficult for those people who find themselves in that position, who do I prioritize when my dad's had a fall and my teen is prepping for their GCSEs and it is, it's not an uncommon experience and we're very fortunate in this country, we don't live in a war zone. One of the people in the comments just said, well I imagine there are elderly people all over the world. I mean of course there are, we know that, but that doesn't mean that the problems outlined in Esther's article aren't real, because they are.

But actually I think one of the people she talks to in the article says that they'd always imagine that there'd be like a sort of sweet spot in life where no one you cared about needed your care. You know, when your children are grown up enough to look after themselves and mum and dad are at the stage of life where they're in a soft top car heading for a spa weekend and nobody would be vulnerable and no one would need you. But I just don't think that moment exists anymore, does it? Well, I think, no, I don't think it does exist anymore.

If it ever did, by the way. Exactly. I think it's exacerbated by the fact that we are in the Western world having kids later. Yeah, exactly. And so it means, you know, sometimes actually you've got a couple of generations who will need looking after, you know, where you've probably got three generations still alive who might need your care in your kind of bouncy years. But I think that point about whether or not something else has changed is really important to talk about because, I mean, who ever said that life wasn't about caring?

The idea that you would only ever go through life being the one who was cared for, where's that come from? I mean is it because we live more distant lives to our parents? Isn't it just an absurd notion to think I will be looked after as a child, my parents will dote on me, they will dote on me as an adult, I won't have to look after my own children. Why would you think that you're only ever facing one way on the conveyor belt of life? I think some people do, maybe they do think that, which is weird. Of course there are some people who genuinely do not have relatives who they'd be expected to care for, or they've

already cared for them and they may not have their own offspring so wouldn't be caring for them but then that also leaves them in the vulnerable position you can imagine. Who's going to look after them? Who's going to look after them? Yeah. So somebody will, somebody will have to. Yeah it's really interesting I think I there's nothing particular, I mean no disrespect to Esther, there's nothing particularly original about the subject of the article but I do think she's probably hit a nerve. Oh and I'm sure, I mean I'm not saying that it's not difficult at all and you know you and I both have elderly parents and we have kids who no longer need picking up from school at 3.30 but have different requirements and needs and money. All of that. I think also

just when you do hit the late teen young adult phase, when they need you, they really need you. That's the thing, isn't it? And that's fair enough. But it is just part of life. Do you know what? Michelle Hussain wrote something once, and she was celebrating the fact that she was in the position where she was now looking after her dad, who was frail and more in need of looking after. And she wrote something so moving about how it made her feel, knowing that he had done the same for her, when she was tiny and vulnerable as a child. And she put it so beautifully, I will try and dig it out because that's the point isn't

it if you take all of the the love and the care as a child there will come a time when you might have to give it back I think it's okay to say that we had this conversation a bit around Davey's book about care. Well you know it's interesting you mentioned what Michelle Hussain said because interesting you mention what Michelle Hussain said because I have asked Eve to arrange an interview for us with a woman who's written a book about her mother and have you read, I confess I hadn't although I'd heard of it, Fear of Flying by Erika Jong. Yes, yes, long time ago though. That's the Ziplers, yeah I hadn't actually read it but I have now zipless. Yes, I'm not saying it. I'm not saying it in or should you because we'll get the E for explicit on the podcast. We won't be available in the United Arab Emirates. And our UAE audience is very dear to us so we need to keep up that connection.

You can look it up if you need to know what it was. Yes. What actually does it mean in the context of that book by the way? Doesn't it just mean the carefree vwoompf? Oh I see okay the jajajajum, babababum. Who have we booked? The smell of caffeine from my trousers is slightly overwhelming. It's well this is where it gets semi-serious well more than semi-serious so Erica Jong's daughter is a she's such a good writer she's called Molly Jong Fast and she has

written a book called How to Lose Your Mother and Erica Jong is still alive and she is writing about that incredibly difficult area of how much care, because Erica sadly has now got dementia, how much care do you owe a parent who didn't care for you? Well that's a magnificent question, That is an absolutely magnificent question. I have to say it's a magnificent book but I only read it over the weekend because a friend from the publisher sent me a copy and said oh I think this would be one for you and Fi and it's really not because I should say either of us have mothers who didn't care for us but just because it's an under discussed area, it really is. And Molly also happens to be just an incredibly brilliant writer,

probably something you could say she got from her mother. Yeah. But her mother is also an alcoholic and just not easy. No. And also, just to go back to the point that Esther Walker is trying to make, it is one about the fact that women have this pressure put on them far more than men. And that is never truer than when you have very small children and a parent who is ill, or actually who's then so ill that they die, I think it's just such a monumentally difficult time of life to be able to be handing out that really really important nutrient of love at the same time as dealing with the death of

your parents. So I really hear you on that Esther, I think it's a really good point that we should talk about more as well because that is what happens when you have an aging population and people are having kids at a later date that is just more likely to happen to you. So that's a good thing to talk about too but Ed Davey had this statistic in his book which really surprised me which was that 59% of caring is done by women. I actually thought it would be much, much higher than that and maybe we need to hear more from the male carer voice in order to know that, you know, the great truism of you can't be it if you don't see it. I think we definitely need to chuck that into the mix so it doesn't always come down to the women in the family

to do it all. Well in some families there aren't any women around to do it. I mean if you're one of three sons then one of those sons or all of those sons are going to have to play a part in caring for elderly parents. Yep. Yeah and you're right we do it weirdly. The focus is always on the female burden and yeah it's not true. It's not even a burden necessarily.

Yeah well that's the other point that Mr Davy was making. We've been told off and I'll absolutely take this hit. It's from an anonymous maths teacher. I'm a big fan of the show here and back at The Old Place and generally agree with your worldly wisdom but you had me shouting at the radio today when you were discussing the maths recruitment test for the civil service. My blood pressure was rising from the moment you said you didn't think maths skills were that important to the job, only seconds after listening negotiating trade deals as one of the things embassy staff do. And then you flung out the lazy stereotype that those who are good at maths tend to be less good at the people side of things. Well that tipped

me right over the edge grabbing my phone to type this tirade. This perception of maths and mathematicians is one of the reasons we still have a gender difference in the uptake of STEM subjects. Moreover conversations such as these which suggest that as a successful professional adult it is acceptable to struggle with general numeracy make teaching maths to the next generation an uphill struggle. Nobody would ever say in such a proud way that they were a bit useless at reading or had never really mastered writing sentences. I could rant for longer but it's late and I've got a class of A-level further maths students expecting a coherent teacher first thing in the morning so I'll leave it there.

Hopefully I've said enough to get you thinking. Well you absolutely have said enough to get me thinking and I'm sure Jane as well and our apologies for tipping you over the edge because obviously it is a lazy trope actually to shove out there into the world. I suppose the point that I was trying to make and then I will let my colleague speak for herself is dangerous to try and talk for the Lady Garvey, was that sometimes that barrier of math seems too high if you haven't been good at it. So the point that I was trying to make is if you don't even get to the second interview because you can't do the maths, what's that saying? Would it be

the same that if you hadn't read all of the works of Dickens and truly understood it, then you wouldn't be able to get into any kind of science degree or place or job or whatever? I just don't know whether the barriers are the same. And I'm just going to quote a personal example. So apologies if it doesn't float your boat, but a friend of mine wanted to become a social worker and we did quite a lot of form filling together because actually the written word wasn't her forte, but she was the most extraordinary woman. Her family had come over here from Uganda. She really understood so many things about living in this country

when life doesn't seem to be on your side. She had been a mentor to so many young women who were really struggling with pregnancy and very young women who were struggling with pregnancy. She had done that through her church. She had just these incredible skills, Jane, that I thought, oh my goodness, in times of trouble you would absolutely be the person with this extraordinary experience and emotional intelligence who could help people through the worst of times. And her application was kicked out right at the first point of entry on basically her language skills and her math skills. And it just made me so angry and really sad.

And I mean, feel free if you come from the world of, you know, working out who's fit for a social worker role and who isn't. I'd love to hear more about what it is that you choose. But I suppose I've just lent into those kind of examples to back up what I was trying to say about the interviews sometimes weeding out exactly the wrong people. That wouldn't be a case of Computer Says No, the old AI at work. Well, I mean there are so many jobs now that are weeded out until a very late stage by

Computer Says No and that's been the source of enormous concern in quite a few of the very large companies because actually it's been proven that the AI's got a bit of a slant. It's particularly like people who've got very difficult to understand accents from AI's point of view, that type of stuff. So I don't know.

Anyway, that's my rant, but I really hear you, anonymous maths teacher. Thank God God you're doing all of the work, because actually the hold of society had fallen apart and people didn't understand maths. So sorry. I wonder whether we should adopt that slogan though, just Garvey and Glover tipping people over the edge since 2017. It's a good idea. I think that would work. Garvey and Glover provoking rants. I think that would work. Garvey and Glover provoking rants. Last thing at night. We just can't take any more of our ill-informed witchcraft.

But I tell you what, I do think that you and I, as a journalistic test, should apply for some of these big jobs and see whether or not we would get through the first hurdle of the interview. Should we do that? Yes. Not today, because I'm a bit tired. I went to the theatre last night and the fruits of this endeavour will be on tomorrow's podcast. This is from Sandra. Oh Sandra, this is funny. She sent us an Elvis Presley in blue Hawaii postcard. It's funny because the depiction of Elvis on the postcard, I mean, it's not Elvis, is it? I mean, it looks a little bit like a younger version of our Silver Fox friend

who's taking his his Mrs for a spin in the open top sports car in the Daily Telegraph. Thank you, V, for that image. It looks nothing like Elvis. It looks like Spencer Matthews. It looks a bit like Spence but he is really shoehorned into a pair of very snug white shorts. But Sandra says that she has really lovely happy memories of watching the Elvis films on the telly during the school holidays and I remember that as well. They were shown on repeat on BBC One during the long school summer holidays. They certainly were. And there were loads of those. I mean all of the Clark Gable ones were up there as well weren't they? And there were loads of girls who were on farms in the midwest who fell in love with

the man who only came to town once a year. There was pining. I remember black and white pining. Which is very different and much more intense than pining in colour. It kind of is though. It is though. All of those love affairs. Because of our memories of a brief encounter. That's possibly where we get all that from. Yeah, the colour's just distracting. I think holly oaks would be good if it was in black and white. Yeah, probably would. Would it be any better? Sandra says, I'm originally from Tunbridge Wells, now I live in central coast California. What a life!

That's what happens when you don't get a wait rose. People just think, sod it, I'm off, I'm going to California. Thank you for that and let's just bring in another postcard. This is from Richard who is our Brussels correspondent. I've got many postcards from my granddad as he traveled the world before and after the war But I thought this one of Larnaca was probably the best. It was sent in 1954 Love the show and as I'm using a post snap, which is one of those automated postcards. My handwriting should be readable He says Richard. Thank you. We love hearing from you and He has sent us this image of the promenade, Larnaca, Cyprus.

With some people having lunch under very beautiful blue skies, they look a bit shady, these individuals, don't they? They look as though they probably are planning a little bit of nastiness. Jane, careful, careful. I'm just a bit of a bank job. That's how they look. That is how they look. Well, Cyprus has had some issues, hasn't it, over the years? No, it's not. It's Monaco that's described as a sunny place for shady people, isn't it? Who said that? Was that...? I don't know.

I tell you what's really remarkable actually is it's just quite empty as well, isn't it? It's not bustling. No, it's not bustling. That must have been... It obviously wasn't... What's that thing they have, you know, when they have the half-price cocktails? Happy Hour. It wouldn't have been Happy Hour at that place in Larnaca when that shot was taken. I think if you are going to take a shot of a calf or a restaurant... It used to be busy. It does, yeah. It looks just a bit unloved if there's only about three people. They're all smoking fags as well. Having a fag over me lunch.

Did you used to do that? I did. Oh, I know. So when, and this is so so horrible kids, don't do it, when I was doing the breakfast show many many many years ago at the GLR, I used to get up, my alarm went off at 3.45, I would have had my first cigarette by 4.30 in the morning Jane. I know isn't that absolutely dreadful. Right. Did you smoke in bed? No. She's got standards everybody. I don't think I ever went that far. I don't know. I mean there'd be nobody out there to verify that.

That's indeed. Don't email in. We used to be able to smoke in the studio. When you were at BBC Hereford and Worcester or in your commercial radio jockeying days. Oh yeah, well the first... Could people smoke in the studio? Absolutely they could. Radio Wyvern in 1987, the very first time I entered a live radio studio, the mid-morning jock, and what a jock he was by the way with his

wonderful mid-Atlantic drawl, so appropriate to Herefordshire, he used to have a big cigar on the go, a cigar. It's terrible. I mean it is absolutely, it is remarkable isn't it, how much we've changed around Smokey. I mean I can't believe that was deemed in any way appropriate. He said it helped his voice. Right, okay. It didn't. So yeah, we used to smoke in the studio. You don't think that gave him the accent. And of course we had loads of guests in. I mean these poor people, most of whom were sensible and non-smokers, used to have to come into this, you know, when you used to walk past the smoking area in a in a airport or a station, just this kind of fag in a room, well that would have been us. I mean I don't know why anybody

carried on coming in. And then there was one presenter who was so annoyed when the smoking ban came in. He said as an ultimatum, I'm simply not going to come to work. And the bosses didn't like it. They said, yeah fine. Can I just say just as a general rule of thumb to younger listeners, if you are going to make a threat like that in the workplace you have to be sure of your ground. I'm just writing down for Jane the name of the person. Oh yes. Yeah good riddance. Ta-rah! Absolute pain in the butt. Right yesterday we were talking about Lidos on the programme with Deborah Aidan who's director

of Future Lidos. If you want to Lido in your part of the world, if you want to get involved in the Lido campaign, then use your social media platform and get involved. Future Lidos would love to hear from you. But it did start this most fantastic series of pictures and anecdotes from people who have been visiting Lidos. I'd like to say hello to Sarah, who has sent an early morning photo of the library, of the Lido in St Albans. Doesn't that look beautiful? With the sun reflecting on the water, because it's completely and utterly still. And she says the Lido is run by members members which even though I've lived here since 2007 I hadn't realised existed until two years ago. It became an absolute lifeline swimming

most mornings all winter while I tried to wade through some serious grief. Now after two seasons as a Coldwater member I've been lucky enough to gain all year round membership in this year's ballot. Gosh it's so popular that there has to be a ballot. Yeah, I'll put your name in for it Jane. I can't tell you how amazing it is to turn up and open the doors to the beautiful shimmering blue pool enveloped by the colourful changing room doors. It's such a happy place and we're lucky to have this on our doorstep. Love the show. I'm saving this week's pods for my long drive to Glastonbury for a much- restorative yoga retreat this weekend. Well,

greetings to you on your drive. Are you in a traffic jam? Is it near Stonehenge? Deep breathing will always be necessary. Lovely to hear from you Sarah and you know, I'm a huge huge fan of the Lido and the outdoor swim so I'm with you on any success that you have there. Enjoy your break and Marie, hello to you. Now Marie's about to embark on an adventure and the background to it she says is that very sadly four years ago my sister Jane and her husband both died. Now in life they were keen sailors and she wants to draw our attention to something I didn't know about. The RNLI has a scheme whereby for a donation to the charity and as a memorial, members, names of dead people can be added onto the big white numbers on the sides of new lifeboats.

Didn't know that at all. Marie, this is very interesting. Thank you. And I'm so sorry to hear about the loss of your sister and her husband. She says, my nieces have done this for my sister and brother-in-law, and the new lifeboats are built in Poole in Dorset and then they sail off to their operational locations. In the case of my sister and brother-in-law and many others, the lifeboat is in, I think you all know how to say this, Anstrother? Anstrother. Anstrother, yeah. Now you announced your next live podcast and I wondered if a trip to the Anstrother lifeboat station to see the names on the lifeboat could be combined

with a trip to see you at the Fringe by the Sea. I live just outside Oxford so I'm not really local, my geography is not great and I found out that Anstrother is just 12 miles from North Berwick so I bought my ticket for the podcast show but here come the logistics. It turns out there's a 12 mile gap between Anstrother, where I'm going to be staying, and North Berwick, which is across the Forth of Firth. The Firth of Forth or the Forth of Firth? The Firth of Forth. The Forth Road Bridge.

The Firth of Forth. So it's not the Forth of Firth? It's the Firth of Forth. Oh, that's really confusing me now, it's the fur the fourth. I thought it was the fur the fourth. Marie has put the fur the fourth. Look, it's very tidal around here. There is a ferry and it's only able to make the crossing for about three days every fortnight. There's no crossing on the 8th of August and the distance by road and rail is 74 miles. Anyway, she's undeterred, she's organising what she describes as her own race across the world.

If the planets, the trains and the buses, I mean, align, I will see you on the 8th of August. I will have been on six trains and two buses, and that is the one-way trip. Oh, Marie, well, thank you for even thinking about making the effort. And we're going to pass that email over to Young Eve, and we'll keep it for the big day in August. And we really, really hope you can make it. And once again, so sorry to hear about what happened to you at your sister and brother-in-law,

but a very, very fitting way to remember them. I think that's great. Really great, yes. Absolutely amazing. And I love all these little bits of information that come to us that inform our world. I can't think where I would ever have learned that nugget of information apart from here. You've just managed to put... I've got my trousers smell of flat white. I've now got pen on my face and there's also a lot of difficult

coffee business going on between my big and the taller of my toes. Right, and also because I've very kind of definitively said that it's Ann Strother, I was just checking that because sometimes it's like the Cudbright, Cucubri pronunciation, I may have got that wrong so we need to check that one too. Can I just say as well that the further forth, yeah, that we will do other shows because that journey sounds so challenging. You don't have to do that. We'd welcome you to another show where maybe it might be easier for you. But if you like the challenge...

She does say on Reflection the Barbican might be easier. From Oxford, yes it would. But anyway, look. We're definitely going to be in Cheltenham in October so that might be easier. Cheltenham should be doable. Well it should. This one comes in from Caroline who says, We are a no-jew bake bean household but equally appreciate the orange adornment and texture across the plate. So we use a... Sorry, can I just do that again? Do the whole sentence again.

Don't like the jus. I thought it was lovely, but gone. What are they resistant to? So we use a slotted spoon to scoop from the pan, which allows for just the right amount of jus for maximum enjoyment, so no need to ramekin. That's quite a handy hand. Sorry, I hadn't thought of that.

So some people really don't like the stuff that the beans come in? No. Okay. Well that's, and also that's the bit that if anything was going to be slightly not great for you in a baked bean can, it's that, isn't it? Because that's what's full of sugar and salt. The beans themselves.

The beans themselves are fine. Are good, yeah. It's all of that. You know, Fee, I'm very keen on pulses. I know you're keen on pulses. Yep. Just stop trying to feel mine. I may be here for a while. Steve says, I was just listening to your item. Well, we don't actually have items as such, but your item about what sounded like aggressive checks by your bank on your spending. This is me. Yes. And this is funny. I had a similar experience as Steve when I

tried to pay John Lewis the deposit for my new kitchen. The amount got flagged, which I guess that's perfectly reasonable because you're going to be giving up a chunk of money, aren't you, for something like this. The amount got flagged, I contacted the bank and I had to explain why I was making this large payment. All good so far, he says. I explained that I was paying John Lewis, which triggered the question, well, who is he? How do you know him? Do you trust him? Right.

But I guess that's back to what we were saying yesterday about the youngish people on the other end of the phone. Some of them, and it's hard to believe this Fiona, may not be over familiar with everything John Lewis offers the middle-aged. It's hard to imagine, isn'taged. It's hard to imagine. It is hard to imagine. Yeah, I think what we've got from everybody who's emailed in about the fraud conversations is just that they just might want to recalibrate the tone and the believing the person on the other end of the line. Because as we said yesterday, if you get quite

antagonistic and aggressive with the caller, then us as the callers, you just put your fists up a bit yourself. It's weird. You do. It can alter your mood very, very quickly, can't it? Yeah. So I definitely, on my fraud check call, went from being, oh hello there, I'm just calling in because it's been flagged up, would it be okay to just make this payment, it's a builder, he needs to pay his other builders. In other words, your normal, affable self. Very very affable self. Into this little troll by the end of it, this little feminist troll in the kitchen just

goes stop talking to me like that I know what I'm doing but it was weird yeah well it is weird you're right to just draw attention to the impact it has on the way we then proceed to conduct ourselves yeah I'd be the same I was just living for hours afterwards. You're alright now, you're in a safe place. I'm okay now. With a woman who smells of flat white. Steve says it's quite hard to look at you. I know. Finally this is an important message from Steve, we have a guest on the podcast today. Finally, if you ever need to phone your bank about a possible scam, just call 159 and this is interesting, it will then connect you to the

fraud department of your bank. That's brilliant. Yeah, that is good and that's true. Thank you very much for that Steve. Good reminder. Right, shall we be entertained by a guest? Why not? Here she is. Jamila Jamil has something to tell you about body image, about porn, about where young women are in the world right now. She once called out the Kardashians for being double agents of the patriarchy, for their promotion of a man-pleasing female look that very few women can ever achieve. Jamila is an actress. You might know her from the sitcom, The Good Place. She's also a podcaster and DJ,

former host of the Radio One Chart Show. She's also a disability rights campaigner. She's done an awful lot in her nearly 40 years on the planet. And her latest venture is a podcast called Wrong Turns. She came in to tell us all about it. So Wrong Turns is a comedy disaster podcast that I have started in an effort for us to abandon toxic positivity and own the most humiliating and embarrassing and disastrous

things that happen to us and no longer force a silver lining and a pearl of wisdom because that's just simply not the case. And I feel like so much of what we see online is people taking something embarrassing that happens to them and turning it into this inspirational story and there's violins under what they're saying and then it turns somehow into them becoming a billionaire CEO. And that's simply not the case for most of us. And I, for one, get sometimes stup stupider not wiser after my biggest mistakes. Well you're a woman after my own heart because I absolutely share that sentiment of not wanting

to relentlessly try and turn the negative into a positive because some of life is just rubbish. Isn't it? And let us just let us just be sodden in the bleakness sometimes let us just laugh together I think it's exhausting. It can be exhausting. It's tedious and it's disingenuous and I'm really lucky to have had some of the funniest people in the world come on and share some really deeply personal and hilarious mess-ups in life. The one with May Martin and Bob the Drag Queen. Now what happens to Bob actually

is really terrifying. Briefly. Which one? Well the, so he admits that he has a bladder the size of a pea and constantly needs to go to the loo and he found himself on a live comedy show being filmed and he thought he could just hold it in and he couldn't. And actually, do you know what, I was quite upset hearing him retell the anecdote because it is everybody's worst nightmare. I think the older you get, the bigger the nightmare might become a reality. And he basically was filmed and then lives forever on social media. The video is still up. Having wetted himself. I mean it's just awful actually isn't it?

Yeah, not just a little patch. Like he created a small, it's a river, a lake perhaps on the stage. That was a nightmare but he has a wonderful sense of humour about it and also these things happen. Our insides fail us constantly. It's an embarrassing situation to find yourself in. But it's kind of brilliant, because then you know that life doesn't end after these embarrassing moments. And I think that's the other point of the podcast, is life goes on and this happens to everyone. Because we keep these things quiet in shame, we think we're the only ones. And actually, it's staggering how many of us just live within a tapestry of mortification. Yeah, it's very much in your DNA, isn't it, this willingness to tell people some

of the darkest sides of your own life and your own experience, but I know that you want to use that to the greater good and for people who aren't aware of what you've tried to do for body positivity, could you just explain it to them? I don't think body positivity is my area. I advocate for body neutrality. Body positivity is for a whole other community, but I'm simply trying to get women to stop thinking about their bodies at all. I don't really care if you love or hate your body. Who cares about your body? Let's focus on our brains. It is a deliberate distraction tactic for us to obsess over our exterior rather than build our brains, build our lives, build our experiences, build our happiness. And so what I encourage is

for people to focus on something that will actually nourish them and something that'll be fun to look back on when they're 85. I've watched countless videos of people on their deathbeds because I think they're incredibly valuable, bleak but valuable, in seeing what people regret at the end of their life. And it's never, oh I wish I'd spent more time on my appearance, I wish I'd bowed down to the patriarchy more, I wish I'd starved and missed more meals. It's always that they wish they'd spent less time worrying about

all of these things, succumbing to ridiculous arbitrary social norms and not having enough fun and not spending enough time with the people they love. And so I think I'm just always advocating for us to dabble in a bit of enjoying your appearance or experimenting the way that David Bowie would or Prince would. But when it comes to actively pursuing something that could risk or harm you or even kill you for a societal norm that we know is gonna shift, because you and I are both old enough

to have been around all of these cycles again and again and again, anytime you meet the beauty standard, I guarantee it's just about to change. So I think it's a con and I think that we should reject it en masse. And what I'm seeing currently to my disbelief is that if anything, we are embracing patriarchal standards more than ever, which baffles me because at least my generation and generations before me,

we didn't have the information as to how damaging this was, where this comes from, why we fall into the trap of it, the long-term impacts. Now we do have all of that information. We couldn't have more access to that information. And yet we're taking some of the biggest risks I've ever seen with our health to meet these norms and I don't know what's happening. It is a frequent thing that happens alongside a rise of fascism and conservatism that beauty standards for women become far more restrictive, but it's out of control. So I'm just going to keep pushing for women to really just chase pleasure.

Pleasure is not an indulgence, it's not a privilege, it's a right and it's something you have to actively seek out in a world that wants you to just reduce, reduce, reduce, serve, serve, serve, impress, impress, impress. And the world is not really built for your enjoyment and what kind of life is that going to be to look back on when we're older? Do people come at you though because actually you are amazing looking, you are beautiful, you have the body that an awful lot of particularly young girls aspire to have and are possibly indulging in, you know, they're definitely indulging in controlled eating in order to get there. So is that problematic?

I completely understand people's frustration, but I also can say with my full chest that this exact same face was not the beauty standard 10 years ago. And I was not on magazine covers and Girls Who Look Like Me weren't, Which in and of itself shows that these beauty standards are make believe. And my face will go out of fashion again at some point. So this same exact face and body has gone in and out and in and out. I just went to Cannes Festival where I could barely fit my leg in most of the dresses. So my body might be someone else's ideal, but according to my industry standard, I'm twice the size I'm supposed to be. I'm I have a disobedient body. I'm

a size UK 8 to 10 and I was called brave over my body on a photo shoot. So so it just goes to show that it's all arbitrary. It's all nonsense. And I urge people to know that like, there is this fear that you're gonna be left behind if you don't succumb to the will of the quote unquote tribe. And it's a loop, you can't be left behind in a loop. My face and my body will continue to go in and out of fashion forever and I just refuse to hurry up and meet those standards. I'm gonna stay as I am, I'm gonna continue to go in and out of fashion forever, and I just refuse to hurry up and meet those standards.

I'm going to stay as I am, I'm going to continue to age naturally, I'm going to continue to allow my body to do what it's doing. I've publicly been many different sizes, and I don't think my being slender or currently temporarily fitting the beauty standard means I shouldn't speak about it, because when people who don't meet the beauty standard speak about it, they're called bitter, jealous and they're dismissed. And so if we then say the people who do have too much privilege, then who's speaking about it? It's the same for austerity. It is the same for race. It's the same for

so many different things. We need everyone to join in the conversation and we are such a despicable society that we make it almost impossible for the people who actually should be platformed to have that conversation to do so. I'm interested by your experience at Cannes because there's something happening on red carpets across the world isn't it which is is is Zempik thinness. Yeah it's crazy. And you know, the latest statistics would seem to suggest that so many women are taking those weight loss drugs, not because they are obese or their health is in danger, but because they want to be much thinner than their normal body size, completely normal, completely natural body size.

And the example that we're being shown on those red carpets is absolutely that, it's dangerous thinness, isn't it? It's really scary. And like I said, the sample sizes are that of Baby Gap. I had multiple arguments with designers when I was out there because I don't think that that's appropriate. And I wonder what their, you know, none of the designers and none of the editors of the magazine

meet the beauty standards that they project onto the rest of us. And I really think that should be a prerequisite. I think you should walk the walk before you talk the talk, because it's all very well for you enjoying your fish and chips while you're telling all of us to inject ourselves with something that can cause cancer. It's meant to help cancer in some cases. I put that in with my journalistic head on. In some cases, and in some cases it doesn't, because there's also types of...

And partially that's also because cancer feeds off of sugar, and you're eating less sugar, and you're eating less in general, but there's thyroid cancer and pancreatic cancer, are two of the side effects that I think are on the website of the drugs that people manage to always conveniently leave out. And I have no problem with anyone doing whatever they want to do. My issue is that the current beauty standard has gone back to frail. People are using it to go from slim to super skinny to frail.

They don't even want to have muscles anymore. The tagline in the New York Times was the results without the sweat, as if we shouldn't encourage people to exercise. When we know that women's bone density is impacted, we know that it causes muscle loss far before it causes fat loss. These are things that we need. We're going to have a miserable menopause without muscle and without bone density and the years beyond.

And the thing that disturbs me about this is the fact that one consistency I have seen since I was 11 years old is that all of these quick fix fad things that have been brought in have the capacity to do extreme long term damage. Not always, but in many cases, a significant amount of cases. And the reason why women in particular are targeted to do things that can hurt you in the long term is because there is this devaluing of women's lives in the long term. Because they think men grow with their value, with age, and we lose ours because our only currency within a patriarchal society is fertility and shaggability. And so no one cares what happens to us later. So if you get the pancreatic cancer, if you get the osteoporosis, if you get the kidney problems, the IBS, the depression, the muscle weakness,

if you have a miserable third act, no one cares because they don't have to look at you anymore. And we have to reject that as a society. All I think about now is my 85 year old self and what she's going to be thinking about what I'm doing now, what I'm eating, whether or not I'm strengthening my bones, whether or not I'm looking after myself. We treat our older selves as if it's something to be embarrassed of, we don't prepare for that act of our lives. Men are taught to build and grow their lives and women are not taught to do anything other than diminish themselves, reduce, reduce, reduce until we're finally invisible. And we are not here to be servants.

It is post-menopause that I find women to be the most hilarious, the most driven, the most clear. I hear better in bed, so I'm excited for that, you know, for me. I'm excited for you. Very excited. And it is such a powerful time in a woman's life, which is why we are manipulated to believe it's not. Welcome to our podcast. I mean, this is our community and actually... I'm 40 next year. We're having a blast. I'm 40 next year. I cannot wait. I'm trying to launch my crone years prematurely because

I'm so excited to get older. Every year I get further away from my 20s, I become infinitely more powerful, more confident, more self-assured and I make better decisions most of the time. Within reason. But I know that I'm a threat. And it's because we're a threat that we used to be burned at the stake. And this is just a new way of eradicating us. We're teaching us how to eradicate ourselves. Well, let's not go quietly into that good night to paraphrase. Can we just talk about men before we get to the end of the interview?

I thought something that you said. What are those? About the men who made deep fake porn images of you was really interesting. You called for those men to be treated with sympathy rather than being vilified. Why? Because I think it's harder to get an erection when someone pities you. It's a very specific kink, if you do. But I think they get off on the power of making us feel exposed and embarrassed and violated, right? Rape is not something that is about sex, it's not about sexuality, it's about power.

And this is a form of digital sexual violation. And part of the appeal for them is indeed to make us feel like we don't have agency over who sees our body. And so I don't think that we should be gifting them that satisfaction. I think we should turn this into, you are masturbating in a basement and you don't have any friends and you don't have anywhere else to go right now. And I'm really worried about you that this is how a grown adult man is spending his time. Because there's just no way that when he was six and he was drawing pictures of firemen

and superheroes and Batman and all the people that he thought he was going to be, there's no way any boy on this planet dreamed for himself that he would one day be spending his time on this earth that we are lucky to live in, taking one woman's face and sticking it on another woman's body. That's honestly one of the saddest ways I've ever heard of someone using their liberty in their life. I genuinely feel very sad. And so it's not really about manipulation and it's not about coddling. It's about going, are they okay? Like, have you spent an hour putting my face on someone else's boobs? Are you alright darling? You're 40, what's going on?

Like how can I help? How can we help? Because I bet this didn't fix things for you. I bet this didn't make your life better. I think turning this into a pity party rather than the shame game is actually going to be more effective. And I've experienced that, is going, this is very embarrassing. I'm deeply concerned for you. It's much harder to feel powerful when someone's going, you're right, hun. Do you think that you could do that as well as vilifying them? I mean, there has to be some form of punishment, doesn't there? There has to be some form of open shaming of them,

because all of this lives in a very, very closed world at the moment. Of course, and also there's, and it's very important, like it was a very long essay that I'd written that had lots of stipulations and context within it, and there are certain things that are done that are completely unacceptable, especially the fact that it is used to also create child sex images, like all kinds of different ways in which this can be abused. It should be recognised as an abuse and as a crime. And I'm glad that we're legislating against it. But I think our cultural conversation should be that of that it's a pathetic way to use your time. It's not scary. You're not scary. You're not powerful. You're

not the Joker. You're not a villain. You're a loser. And that's sad. And actually, I believe there's better for you out there. So I'm purely talking about the social conversation around it should be, babe, what's going on? Because I don't think that makes anyone, I think, disempowering them. That the shame is powerful. People, there is so, there's such a ginormous community within the sexual world that seek out shame specifically. That's the high. So I'm talking purely about the fact that we should carry on legislating against these things because they lead to very dangerous places and teenage girls wanting to commit suicide when these images are circulated as if real. But I do think we can do two things at the same time, which is shift our conversation

away from giving them the even the kudos of being seen as a predator and more as a wimp. Jamila Jamil and her latest podcast is called Wrong Turns. There's so much that we probably need to talk about off the back of that interview and I think her point about the way that we treat the men who are making these horrendous deep fake porn videos and feeling powerful through them and all of that kind of stuff definitely merits some attention. And it's your point about Andrew Tate, you know, when you see him, I mean, he's just a he's an absolute pratt, loads and loads of young men think he's an absolute pratt. I mean, they do impersonations of him with his silly big biceps and his slightly camped eyes and you know they they don't have any time for him at all but if you haven't watched very much of his stuff then you know I think he can

he can feel more powerful than he should be. Yeah oh let's not give him any any power at all. You wonder whether that, I mean we we're edging towards that story, if I can call it that, hopefully coming to some kind of conclusion or at least... Well, he's got... the charges against him in this country have been formalised. He had to return from America, where he appeared to be seeking sanctuary forever at the behest of Donald Trump, but the Romanian authorities ordered him back to Romania. So it does seem that the clouds are gathering in order for rain to fall on him. And that would be great because it has been going on

for such a long time. And in the meantime, he does carry on making money. You know, even if he's not making any more video content. He doesn't really need to. No, I mean it's still being viewed and actually, do you know what, that is such a story for another time as well. That benefiting from criminal activity over stuff that you made before you were convicted of a crime, I think we need to really open our eyes to that. We're back tomorrow and our guest is the author and Times columnist Satnam Sanghera because his novel Marriage Material has been made into the play What I Saw Last Night.

Excellent. Plenty to chomp your way through in this episode so if you'd like to send us an email any of the topics that we've covered we are Jane and Fee at times.radio goodbye now do you want me to wash that thing off your face? Don't spit on a hankie. I was so tempted to. No I can't. No I could do that. It makes me feel sick. It might actually be the end of our working environment. It'll be the end of everything. Goodbye. Goodbye. Goodbye. Congratulations you've staggered somehow to the end of another Off Air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do do it live,

every day, Monday to Thursday, 2 till 4, on Times Radio. The jeopardy is off the scale, and if you listen to this, you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online, on DAB, or on the free Times Radio app. Off Air is produced by Eve Salisbury and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler.