Off Air... with Jane and Fi - To lick or not to lick?

Episode Date: July 24, 2023

Jane and Fi reflect on the highs (and licks) of Latitude Festival, and England's somewhat lack-lustre win over Haiti. And they are STILL talking Penny-farthing sightings. They are also joined by campaigner Daisy, who discusses her campaign to change the law to make children born of rape legally recognised as victims. If you are affected by any of the issues discussed on today's episode please contact [e-mail] and we will direct you to support services. If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail].  Assistant Producer: Angus Mitchell Times Radio Producer: Rosie Cutler   Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Let's start now. Let's start now. Let's start now. Let's start now. Yeah. Okay. Definitely ditch that previous bit. We're starting now.

Dear Joan and Fee, I have two observations about your off-air latitude addition. In at number one, did Fee adopt an intermittent Yorkshire accent? We both keep slipping into a Yorkshire accent. I don't know why. Well, we must stop. Yeah. In at number two, the way you immediately declined a celebrity dinner offer

from Richard and Emma for fish and chips with your crew. It's why we all love you both. You're just nice. Go on, read this out and don't be modest. Well, we have done that, Nicky. But genuinely, it wasn't some kind of, you know, faux humble thing. Jane and I have been looking forward to fish and chips all day. It's not just that.

It's just that I don't like to change plans. In the Garvey family, you make a plan and you stick to it. And we were really, really looking forward to, all of us were really looking forward to fish and chips. We decided on the shop. We'd had a look at the menu. Yes. We decided on the shop we'd had a look at the menu yes we decided on the timings i was going to have two small fish goujons from the kiddies menu and the kiddies chips because a big man-sized portion of fish and chips is too much jane well i would definitely have given it a go uh because let's be honest it was quite cold in

suffolk on thursday and wet so i would have needed a jumbo helping. As it turned out we got tantalisingly close to being able to order from that award-winning chip shop. We were in the queue, there were only two people in front of us. One of them was wearing a kind of flat cap and after we had been standing there for about five minutes with that wonderful smell of hot oil and salt and vinegar drawing us in so drool was pouring down our faces stay with me kids uh the lovely woman behind the bar said um i'm not serving anybody else after the bloke with the cap and that was us so i hope the bloke with the cap enjoyed his chips uh but actually we did get some in the end from Mark's chip shop in South World

big shout out because without Mark I would have gone to bed hungry and it just doesn't we would have had such a mardy crew wouldn't we yeah so we're all grateful for that and it was you know it was good fun wasn't it Jane it was it was good fun to be out in retrospect it was, you know, it was good fun, wasn't it, Jane? It was good fun to be out and about. Oh, in retrospect, it was. Yeah, it was quite a hassle getting there and back because we, along with many, many other people, were trying to get to the Latitude Festival on a train strike day. So all of that, all of that, et cetera. Lovely of you came to see us.

Thank you very much indeed. Were you both OK being licked by Emma Freud from Anonymous? I know a woman who licks other people's faces as a joke and it's always made me feel weird. I'd hate it if someone did it to me. Did you? Well, we should explain this in case people haven't listened. Yes.

Emma, upon departure, Emma Freud, who was our guest on the podcast last Thursday at Latitude, upon departure, she said she was going to come over and lick our faces. We didn't believe her. We didn't believe her. We should have believed her. She did. Yes, she did. Yes.

Did you enjoy it as a sensation? Has anybody ever, I mean, you know, let's not be silly about it and for now, for now, but has anybody ever, outside of a warm and loving relationship, licked your face? Not even in one. No. Has anybody done? So I've got to be honest, it's probably not something that I want to, I wouldn't make a habit of doing it.

So that's, what else can I say? I mean, maybe things are different in south but i but i don't think they are i really don't it was so strange because like you i didn't think it was going to happen no and then it suddenly did i thought it would be just an idle threat but it wasn't yeah can we talk about slightly easier things? Yes, let's. I want to talk about the Women's World Cup because during the course of the live show at Latitude, I talked to, was it Casey Stoney? I think it was Casey Stoney.

No, it might not have been Casey Stoney. Anyway, a former England player about England's chances. And I was basically saying, they'll play Haiti and they'll probably win seven or eight nil and it might be a bit embarrassing. Well, we now know that they ground out a one nil victory against Haiti. And all I can say about that was it was just like watching England at a major tournament. The biological sex of the participants was completely irrelevant. It was just England at an international tournament,

not doing quite as well as some of the hype might have led you to believe. Do you think though, because they're playing without some of the, they're playing without some of the original squad, the winning squad. Yeah, the winning squad, yes. Well, some are retired, some are injured. Yeah, who you and I might hope to see.

Yeah. And they might not yet have gelled together. I'm doing that thing where I'm full of hope at the beginning of the tournament and we've got to make it through the group stage. Oh, well, we really have. And I'll tell you this, Vee, I'm not going to use the word. There are no easy games at international level. There aren't any, apart from San Marino.

And I still remember that game the England men played against San Marino, where I think they had to win 9-0 to get to a tournament, and San Marino scored in the first minute. It was one of my happiest footballing memories, because it was so embarrassing. It was just unbelievable, almost from the kick-off, San Marino scored. I can't remember what year that was. But I know what you mean, because there was a little bit of that kind of arrogance going on about Haiti, though, wasn't there? And effectively, we won because of a mistake

made by their goalkeeper, who was actually brilliant. And I remember mentioning last week that she is, quotes, only 5'4", which isn't tall for an international goalkeeper, but she was amazing, as it turned out. Anyway, England's next game will be an even sterner test against the Danes next Friday. Watch out. Anyway, England's next game will be an even sterner test against the Danes next Friday. Watch out. We've been talking a lot about air conditioning, haven't we? And we did put out a

plea for an air conditioning engineer to get in touch with the podcast. Have we been successful on that? Well, I'm not sure we've got an engineer, have we? We've got lots of emails about air conditioning. This is from an Australian, Yvette. I thought you'd like an Aussie perspective on your suggestion that we ban air conditioning. No, I live most of my 60 years, next week, she says, happy birthday, Yvette, without air conditioning. And finally getting it a few years ago has changed my life. With heat waves bringing several days of 40 plus temperatures in recent years and predictions this will increase further as climate change continues to have an impact. I am terrified of future summers. However

we did install solar power last year. Now I do feel a little better about using the air conditioner when needed. Yvette's in Melbourne. Thank you very much for that Yvette and that's really interesting because that reminds me of Sam Walker who is in Phoenix in Arizona who was on the Times radio show this afternoon and she was saying that there's so much sunshine in Phoenix in Arizona where she lives but hardly anyone

has solar panels and she just couldn't understand it. I would say there's a massive, massive missed opportunity there for a commercial manufacturer and installer of solar panels so we will carry on the conversation about air conditioning just because we are so interested in the kind of um the circular nature of that economy and of what you're doing to the climate by installing air conditioning to keep it cool, but you're consuming the electricity.

You know where I'm going with that. So we'll carry on talking about that. There's something that we just really, really enjoy as human beings about other people's experience of extreme weather conditions. It's quite perverse, isn't it? It is a bit odd. And I know there's something... I have never been this. Have you ever been a Brit?

Because you're only ever a Brit if you're abroad and something starts going wrong and I've never been in that unfortunate position where all of a sudden the newspapers start talking about Brits who need bringing home I mean no one ever does anybody ever call themselves a Brit well unless they're abroad I think that's it's that's doubly controversial now. Don't get me started. But I think even if you're not a Brit abroad, we just really, really enjoy reading about how the human body reacts to extreme cold and extreme heat. And it's weird, Jane, because basically the experience will always be the same. It's very uncomfortable and in worst case scenario you die.

So why is it that we want to just keep hearing all of these stories about difficulty? Can we just be really honest about this? There's a certain amount of satisfaction in somebody else's holiday going belly up, isn't there? Which is terrible because I absolutely reserve the right to have my

so-called week in the sun every year and I would hate for that not to happen but you can't help just thinking oh quite not in book roads this week which isn't to say if you're going with young kids or older people it must have been horrible but let's get it into perspective going on holiday anywhere is a first world thing and although it must have been very frightening for you it's probably nowhere near as bad as for the people who live there or for other people in all parts of the world who are fleeing all kinds of desperate situations yes yeah that's a good point to make because some of the snaking cues of you know families who can't get back in time to be able to rebook

another holiday with dewey it's not the same as a snake in queue leaving a war-torn country. So that's us being pompous and po-faced and I tell you what, we'll be the first people to actually end up weeping with abject misery if we were caught at an airport without a food voucher. Oh my God! Talking of the same

subject, Jenny says, at the risk of sounding terribly self-righteous, the fact that many of us routinely fly to Europe for short breaks and that this has become part of the accepted standard of middle-class living has contributed hugely to carbon emissions and the climate change that fuels inhospitable poolside temperatures. Of course, we rely on our governments and big business to make decisions that will reduce emissions, but it's wrong to think our own personal choices don't have an impact research suggests that 37 percent of the uk's emissions are related to our lifestyle habits and flying is the single biggest contributor to this with a much greater impact than our dietary choices or our purchasing habits there you go and that's jenny who does work at guys where she is a

research fellow that's at the nhs trust very close to where we are now i would like someone to i'd like a place to go actually where i could do a personal audit on my own energy use and contribution to global warming jane i'd like to pop in you know how much uh unrecycled waste i make every year how many miles i travel in the car and then on a plane and my heating do you know what i mean yeah i'd like someone to audit my life and say this is actually the single most useful thing that you could do but i mean i'm certainly it's not that long ago that we did no recycling at all. Well, in some parts of the country, I've been on holiday there, they still don't.

What? You put everything in a black bag and it just goes off. What, cardboard, newspaper? It felt really weird and really wrong. In Margate, two summers ago. Wow. So it was just coming out of the pandemic, and I don't know whether that was a pandemic related thing. But we were staying in an Airbnb. And, you know,

we went through the folder at the end, and we'd carefully separated all of our recycling as we would at home. And then the folder just said, you just have to put it all in a black bin bag and put it outside. And we had wondered a bit, actually, because we hadn't seen lots of recycling bins with, you know, separate colours and stuff, which you do most places in this country. So if someone's in Margate, if someone is part of that county council and can inform us,

that would be nice to hear from you. This one from Kate says, Dear Jane and Fi, I wanted to write to you about your interview with Lisa Jewell, where Jane commented that if a woman hadn't made it by 45, it probably wasn't going to happen. As a 40 year old woman myself, I really hope this isn't the case, as it means I only have five years to get to where I want to be professionally.

Are women really confined to wading in the shallows of a career for the next 20 to 25 years if they aren't where they want to be by their mid-40s now do you know what that was one of those questions as I saw it coming past because we were doing the interview together I did think god that is quite a bold thing to say I think I probably um I certainly didn't mean just women by the way I kind of meant I suppose if you have an ambition in your teens or 20s to be a specific thing and you haven't got into that line of work by the time you're 45 perhaps it's not going yeah it's not that's what I meant yeah but also I thought it was one of those things that actually was really worth saying because sometimes you do I think we can be a bit surrounded, can't we, with messages of positivity about changing career, rejoining a workforce, putting everything into it.

Hashtag living your best life, finding your inner soul, a job that's fulfilling and all that kind of stuff. But I think it is very true, actually, that your energy levels are just different as well. My what? Mid 40s. different as well uh my what mid 40s you know so that kind of verve and determination and stuff to start doing something from scratch i think is very different some people seem to manage to just put it out the bag and kate i really hope that that happens for you but it's an interesting one to discuss i'd like to hear about people being on the receiving end of the ever optimistic messaging because i've always found that a bit annoying actually jane well a lot of positivity can be really annoying

i think that's one of the reasons our podcast has been a minor triumph well no it's realistic yeah we we do just try to you, acknowledge that things can be a bit shit. But experiences of mid-40s trying to, and, you know, we'd be very willing to hear the bits that haven't really worked out and where that's left you. Yeah. As well as the remarkable stories of,

you know, somebody who has managed to turn it around. And Kate, let us know what it is that you'd like to be doing in your mid-40s as well, because that would be interesting too. This is a nice positive one from Jane, thank you Jane, about the interview with Katrina O'Sullivan who was just so eloquent and brilliant about her childhood in the Midlands in England and then her adolescence and later life in the Republic of Ireland and she is someone who grew up in pretty desperate poverty but has achieved remarkable success and is now an academic at Trinity College in Dublin and this is from Jane

who says there is a great charity called Crowd Scholar who accept donations that are then turned into scholarships for young people from disadvantaged backgrounds receiving free school meals to help with the financial burden. They also provide support during the students' time at university and help with preparing CVs and finding internships. All the stuff that pushy middle-class parents do, as we all know, because we can play the game. There is no bank of mum and dad for many people and so many have to take on part-time jobs alongside their studies

and there isn't always somebody there to help pick them up when they're struggling and tell them that they're doing fine or bring them home for a weekend of Sunday lunch and TLC when they're stressed. That does sound like a really a good charity I mean obviously I'm afraid I don't know much more about it but it might well be worth looking at if that's something you think you'd like to help with it's called Crowd Scholar. Sounds brilliant. We've got quite a long interview with our guest today, so I'll only do one more thing, which is just to say penny farthings.

I mean, what the actual, what is happening here? Well, we've got people on PFW, Penny Farthing Watch, all over the UK. But all over the world, Jane. Just catching up on the podcast whilst at Lake Tahoe for a swim. I'm afraid there's no escaping Penny Farthings, even here at 6,300 feet. More interesting were two bear sightings on days one and three, the first in a meadow from the safety of the car,

the second having a dip in the lake at the same time as me. Not so safe. Oh, my God. From Mel, a.k.a. Poppet. And there is a Penny Farthing in Lake Tahoe. And then keep up the good work, Rose and Baby Thomas. Baby Thomas is a newborn baby, and Rose has been binging on the podcast after her husband recommended it.

Oh. Absolute keeper. What a keeper. Slam dunk keeper there. And welcome, Thomas. You must be enjoying every word. Oh, I would have thought so. Yesterday evening, we were walking home from a pub

and spotted a man, not Jeremy Vine, riding a penny farthing through the streets of Wandsworth in South London. We turned to each other in excitement. He said, Jane and Fee, here's a photo for evidence. We gave him a clap. And frankly, he looked a bit smug about it. But I suppose if you ride a penny farthing,

you probably enjoy the attention. And there is something in that. You've certainly not lost any of your powers of deduction through having a baby, Rose. You'll be absolutely fine. It's only people who want to blend into the background who ride penny farthings. Attention is, I've said before, is the very last

thing they want. I'd like to see a penny farthing taking a really, really tight corner at speed. Let's see if we combine the two. If someone can send us a picture of a bear riding a penny farthing, a really, really tight corner at speed. I'd like to see, let's see if we can combine the two. If someone can send us a picture of a bear riding a penny farthing, then you win, OK? It's as simple as that. And maybe whilst you're in labour.

Right. There's a note here, a post-it note, attached to the top of the emails that just says, mention Helen who came to Latitude and sent a photo on Instagram. Do not fear, you will have someone in the audience. That's right. Helen was, I think she was early doors in the marquee at Latitude, wasn't she? And Helen, we were very grateful to see that. Thank you for coming. Thank you for making the effort. Okay. Shall we get to the guests?

Yes. Now the guest today is a woman called Daisy who has just lived an extraordinary life. She was adopted by a family. She is a black woman herself and the family who adopted her are white. They had other children of their own. She had what she describes as quite an idyllic childhood in terms of all of the things that were provided for her and the kind of place that she lived and the school that she went to. But interracial adoptions can be incredibly difficult for the child and she certainly experienced quite a lot of confusion and curiosity about her own identity. So she decided that she wanted to know a little bit more about her mum and her adoptive family told that actually when she was born her mother had only

been 14 years old herself and that her birth father was in his 30s. So a little bit further down the line when she was 18 Daisy decided that she really did need to know more about that story and when she found out who her birth father was she also found out that he had raped her mother. Obviously, this is quite a triggering interview to listen to. And we completely understand if that's going to be something that affects you. You don't have to stay with us. Come back in about half an hour's time. But what Daisy has to say is really relevant because as you're here throughout her journey, she didn't just want to change her own life. She wanted to change the way that the system treats children like her, children of rape who weren't recognised as being victims of crime.

You should know before we start the interview that there are quite a few people in Daisy's story who she doesn't identify, who don't wish to be discussed. So we don't go there. And you should also know that in August 2021, Carvel Bennett, who was by then 74, was convicted by a unanimous jury at Birmingham Crown Court of raping Daisy's mother, and he was sentenced to 11 years. So I started by asking Daisy when it was that she decided she just needed to know more about her own birth story. I grew up in a university town in the south of England in a majority white village three miles outside of the town. Well, say majority white, it was all white. I was the only black child for miles around.

I wasn't educated with another black child until I was about 13 years old. My adoptive parents had two birth children and then, see, adopted me. Very idyllic in many ways, on paper, very idyllic upbringing. Very white, middle class class quite affluent area had everything provided for me um foreign holidays good education um encouragement around sports and education um so in theory everything should have been great. So we can all hear the but. Yes. Because of course you always knew that you were different to your siblings and to the rest of your family. That's right and as a black child I was placed at seven months old so this is what I grew up knowing. I can't recall being sat down and told about being adopted and why I'm black and my parents are white.

I would have been told, I just always knew. But I had to live my life. I've lived my life, particularly in childhood, being so ultra aware of myself, of being different, of the looks that that would garner from people, just being very hyper vigilant, hypersensitive, carrying a degree of shame, I think, because people would know I'm adopted about what I was like as a child I'd say I was very compliant because if you've not been wanted already you need to make sure you're wanted by this new family I wouldn't have been able to verbalise that, but that was definitely a strong sense I had. Be good, be quiet, behave yourself.

People, you stick out, you need to behave yourself. That's a narrative I had for myself. And I'm just very aware that many black children growing up in black homes will have conversations with their parents. Their parents will talk to them about being a black child in society racism having to do more to get further I didn't have those conversations given to me and maybe because my parents were affluent white middle-class parents I mean obviously they didn't have any knowledge or insight into how to deal with racism and the needs of a black child. But I wasn't given any armour, any armour at all around race and difference. So when did you decide that you needed to know more about yourself? I knew from very young that I wanted to find my birth mother.

Before I even knew the story, I would, like many adoptees, I would think about her all the time birthdays particularly painful is she thinking about me did she want me and couldn't have me what's she doing now um mother's day again particularly painful and those dates are still painful for me as an adult who's processed of everything that's gone on um But I knew as soon as I was 18 and could get my files from social care that that's what I wanted to do. It was an absolute urge to see someone who mirrors me.

Just, you know, my siblings look exactly like my adoptive parents. I grew up not having anybody nobody at all to mirror me genetically you just feel like you've just been kind of dumped dumped on earth with no nothing to determine where you've come from who you are where you've you know your genetic history. So how prepared do you think now looking back on it you were to find out the story of your birth? I was given no preparation I knew at around the age of 13 and 14 because obviously my parents spoke to me shared information, 14, shared more information at 18, and then obviously I got my records. But at the age of 13, 14, I was aware that my birth mother would have been around that age

when she was pregnant with me. And I can picture myself being in the classroom thinking about that and how horrendous that would have been. So this was information that your adoptive family had given you? Yeah, that was on a social services report. It simply said birth mother at the time of this report was 14, birth father between the ages of 30 and 35. Just written like that.

Nobody filled in what that could mean so you find yourself about the same age as your birth mother trying to imagine your connection together trying to imagine her story her connection to this older man and had you thought about the very dark reality that it may well have been a sexual assault, a rape. I think the ages I was when I first saw the information about the pregnancy, how old she was, it just sort of, I remember thinking, oh, that's really odd, that's quite a difference. As I got older and by the time I got that information passed to me in my files, it wasn't a surprise but it was shocking

information and the shocking shocking that it happened to a child shocking that she told people disclosed the name shocking that social care and the police had been involved and shocking that nothing was done because it was not enough evidence you've got a pregnant child disclosing rape and the perpetrator's name who was a friend of the family and yet nothing happened and of course you are the evidence yeah aren't you yeah so uh take us back to being 18 and deciding that you want to find out more about your story and you wanted to meet your mum didn't you yeah yeah when I got the birth record sat down with a social worker it's called birth records counselling it's not counselling at all not counselling at all it was going through

the records and there you go off you go have a think if you want to make contact when the rate was fully confirmed in those files, I immediately wondered if my birth mother was going to want to meet me. I absolutely understood why she wouldn't have wanted to have done. Obviously, at this stage, I didn't know what she looked like, what the perpetrator looked like. So am I going to be turning up with the face of her perpetrator? Also, I represent, as far as I was aware,

the worst thing that had happened to her, not just a rape, child abuse, but then the pregnancy, hiding the pregnancy, labour, and then the separation, horrific. So I did not know where that was going to leave her in her life. This happened when she was 14. She only turned 14 a couple of days before I was born. This happened when she was 14.

Would she want to see me? Had life taken her down a route where she wasn't alive? Had she just been killed in an accident? Had she ended her life because of what she'd been through? So really torturous. What was it like when you met? We organised that I would go and stay for the weekend, which is insane. Absolutely insane. I was young, didn't think about it, you know, and I'm a social worker now. So you just think,

oh my gosh, what was going on? But I don't regret it. I don't regret it. I didn't set out to kind of have a mother-daughter relationship obviously was not sure how it would go at all I felt very grateful that she would even meet me the numbers of adoptees who would not who have not been able to do this may not ever be able to do this because of lack of records birth parents don't want to meet them denial the shame I've just I would have met her anywhere for however long because that's what I needed to do we obviously do need to talk about your birth father is that a term that sits very uncomfortably with you you know what birth father doesn't I think it sits very uncomfortably with other

people. Right. I've had someone say, he's not your birth father. Well, he is. My birth mother gave birth to me. I gestated in her and he was the rapist. His sperm inseminated her. He is a birth father. I'm very strongly stick to particularly for adopting for everybody but when i'm talking about adoptees we have a right to call anybody what we want it's not about anybody else and i you know you hear terms like the rapist's child people have been very you know pro my campaign but will refer to children born from rape as the rapist's child well that's very i mean that says a lot doesn't it i mean that's the sins of the father yeah yeah and this bad genes and it's like no i won't have that so he is my birth father my dad is my adoptive father but birth father is exactly what it what it is what it says on the tin and I

think it may make people uncomfortable and people need to think about that because he is half of my genetics half of my ancestry and I will not give him that power not to be interested in that part of my life. You're listening to an interview with Daisy. You may have heard that Daisy's law has been incorporated into law in this country at the beginning of this year, in fact, and that's a law that makes the victims of rape, the children who are born of rape, recognised as victims within the legal system. In the second part of our interview, I asked her to take us back to when she'd met her birth mother and asked her what originally she had resolved to do. I never kind of got a full disclosure from my birth mother and that was okay. We maintained some contact, but it got very difficult.

We maintained some contact, but it got very difficult. I eventually did ask her outright about my birth father and she didn't want to give any information, which was extremely upsetting and frustrating. But I also understood it. I also understood it. But I have got just this feeling it is my right to know and I want to know what's gone on because actually I wouldn't be here

talking if a man hadn't chosen to rape a child in his own home. My whole life's been dictated by what he did. So I've always had this thought that, you know, it's, you know, how can I not be? How can it not be so prevalent to my experience experience but always very sensitive towards my birth mother so we eventually did stop contact I can only speak from my perspective that I found it too emotionally harmful in terms of our mental health I feel and I guess that speaks to the lack of support that she had that I've had um that it just felt healthier not to have that relationship as painful as it is and continues to be. But it was from around 2011, 2012, when all the sort of more historical cases became more, were appearing in the media, Jimmy Savile, Rolf Harris, Stuart Hall, all the kind of Operation New Tree cases, which were obviously, ironically, men perpetrating sexual abuse against children in the 70s,

just like my birth father. And hearing some of these news reports, thinking this is right that they're being caught, that they're being, there's attempts to prosecute, but actually I've got even more evidence. I've got social work records and I am the irrefutable DNA evidence that wasn't around in the mid-70s. This should be a shoo-in. By this stage, I'm also a social worker. I qualified as a social worker in 2003. So I've also learned far more about perpetrators, offenders, working more with women and children and males who have been subject to sexual violence. So I've seen the outcome of what support and lack of justice does. So I spent probably about two years researching sexual violence. It was very clear that people born from rape were not represented in any research

any information at all really I remember looking up support for people born in rape from in my very early 20s absolutely nothing nothing at all that shows me that anybody else was going through this but I just knew that couldn't be right that couldn't be right and I was in the unique position that I knew about my background as well with no one being actually this is a really interesting bit of law because I just thought god it just needs somebody who's like not even wants to do the right thing per se but it's like wants to make a name for themselves because this is you know even then rape convictions so low um i know birmingham city council were under special measures there were huge issues huge issues around west midlands police in terms of inspections around success around rape and sexual violence cases so the atmosphere felt

right um and i approached my birth mother to say look look, I've been doing some research. I've read about evidence-based prosecutions. You should not have to come forward. You did what you needed to do. I want to see if I can do this in my own right, but I want to let you know what I'm doing. Her response was, well, this has taken so long. If anyone wants to contact me about it, I don't want to be involved which I completely understood why should she have to be part of my reasoning for doing it this way was of course because I knew the criminal justice system was so horrific for victims this is a rape

sort of 40 less than 40 years ago by the time I was speaking to my birth mother that nearly 40 years she'd been let down by every professional, by family members. Why should she have to come forward? Like I said, I wanted to do this in my own right. And it was about justice for the both of us, not just her, but for me. So what then happened, because obviously we are now talking from an extraordinary position where you have managed to change the law. an extraordinary position where you have managed to change the law. Yes so in a very good in a summary as much as I can summarise it's been gruelling absolutely gruelling working in social care at the same time working with women who've had children removed high levels of sexual violence so doing that job and seeing the injustice and lack of change in how women are supported and going home and doing

hours and hours of research and looking at other ways to get the police to listen to me so the police did go out to see my birth mother came back no not going to do anything she's the victim she doesn't want to make a complaint I made the point there's a man who is at risk of children. We know the high rates of re-offending. For him to be living his life at risk to a community was sickening to me, absolutely sickening to me. And even you just thought, yeah, it just was nonsensical. The lack of concern for public protection was staggering. And I'm coming from a position as a social worker. It was just staggering by the police and social care. Eventually, I met up with an assistant director

of quality assurance and safeguarding from Birmingham. He assured me there'd be a, which I thought was remarkable, got someone to come and meet with me. He said there'd been a review of my files. Nothing happened. They took me back to the police, a police force which had actually told me, can't do anything, you're not the victim. Make a complaint. I made a complaint. And I was deemed vexatious. I made a complaint about a lack of investigation of a child rapist, and they deemed me vexatious, which again was staggering. I'm vexatious, and yet meanwhile this man,

who's had 40 years to offend, gets away scot-free. So how do we go from that point to the point at which you are actually in court for the first time, seeing your birth mother and your birth father in the same room. Yeah. So eventually, you know, contacting various people with Jeanette Oldham at Birmingham Mail, articles written about my case. 2017, didn't get any response from MPs,

the local police force, no one. And in 2019, the Victoria Derbyshire show featured my story even that was grueling my birth mother did give permission which was fantastic but I got to the point when I thought this is so ludicrous so ludicrous and so dangerous and within this time there's me too there's the independent Inquiry for Child Sexual Abuse. Just everything's going on which would make seeing this should be easier but it was only when my story was featured in August 2019 at the police then, didn't contact me but they went out to see my birth mother a few days later.

So with the glare of publicity. Yes, it was absolutely publicity that got them to do anything which is disgusting not not the rape and pregnancy of a child not this man has 40 years to rape children down his street even because i turned up on his doorstep surrounded by children, it was going to the media. So what happened to him? So court was 2021, as you said, first time I was in a room with both birth family, mother and father. At one point I had to move over so my birth father could sit down.

They didn't usher him through to the dock. He was kind of left wondering, was stood there. I had to get my friend to move over so he could sit down. I remember looking around at the police like, what? I mean, there was no care for me, no care for me through victim and witness services, through the police, nothing was disgusting disgusting but on the 3rd of august 2021 he was sentenced to 11 years in prison well i mean i want to say well done but i mean you know the there is no celebration about something like that it is justice that you fought so hard to get. What has now happened with regard to the law, the changes that have been made? So obviously we heard in January, and we knew that the victims bill, it's been, the consultation has

been ongoing and discussions are still ongoing now, hoping the amendments will come in in the autumn, I think. I've not had any updates um so it was announced in January that the government is supporting children born from rape to be deemed as victims Daisy's Law and which was absolutely staggering I couldn't believe it what it will mean now I hope is that it's acknowledging that we have been victimised. Now, I'm not saying every child born from rape, but I'm talking about we understand how horrific rape is. We only talk about rape conception, it seems, in terms of abortion debates. And that's it. It's so stigmatised. And I think that's why it's such a taboo subject.

I think that's why it's taken so long for my campaign. And being faceless, having to not be able to be, not being able to wave my anonymity has probably put me at a disservice, but I understand why, for the rights of my birth mother. But it has put me at a disservice to be a black, transracially adopted woman born from rape is quite hard in terms of campaigning there's quite a lot of areas where you're being marginalized and not listened to um so it's

astounding and i hope the changes will mean well the change is about making people born from rape a part of the victim's code we have the same rights of victims of crime and so it is everything that i wouldn't have so it's care it's support it's access to therapy specialist support and recognition recognition i think that's almost symbolic really the other option the other element is support, specialist services, and I think that's for people born from rape. Mothers, obviously men are born from rape. So it's not just a female issue because men are born from rape. And I'm really interested in what that experience is like in terms of the gender difference and the impact. It's also about prosecutions, increasing prosecutions, we desperately need to increase prosecutions.

In terms of my case, it was under the old Sexual Offences Act where there had to be proof of consent still for 13 to 16-year-olds, which is just disgraceful. That's now changed. So hopefully it will make it easier now, even for evidence-based prosecutions, where there is so much evidence. And when you factor in something like adoption and being born from rape that's a real heady mix of complexity

to have to deal with in your life so it is about support prosecution and recognition of the other impact that rape has when there's a pregnancy and would there ever be a time again where a woman as you had to would have to sit in court next to the man who raped her mother? I hope not and it's I've had that example of ill treatment when I've been sat with women going to court and through social justice process and I've seen the failings and I mean they had they were not ready they were not ready to deal with these different parties you've got my birth father in the waiting room you've got my birth mother the siblings my siblings you've got me no one was me. No one was looking out. No one was looking out. So I hope with this change of law,

the complexity of turning up to court and making sure people are safe and not further traumatised by an instance like that doesn't happen. There's a lot of learning. I'm very happy to help any police force, any CPS talk about improvements because there's everything that shouldn't happen, happened to me within this process. The gaslighting, the bullying,

the treatment by the police, the disdain by the police was traumatising in itself. Do you spend very much time being able to imagine the life that you could have led if this wasn't your story? gave me a name they were hoping to adopt me and I was given an adoptive name I've actually changed my surname so in some ways there's three different versions of Daisy that could have happened I kind of think about what would Daisy who stayed with birth family have done what would Daisy who grew up with I mean it's so it is so layered it's in complex and layered but it is but um you know it's been do I regret anything I don't it has been horrendous I'm lucky to have survived it really it's been I don't want anyone to go through what I've had to go through to do the right thing but I feel like I've come out the other end victorious and not just in terms of justice and the law but in myself. I've been working on a podcast documentary,

which will be out in November, The Second Victim, Daisy's Story. And that has been transformative. It's been really hard and going to all those really dark places and going back over horrendous experiences that I've had over the last, not over just a decade in trying to get justice, but over the last 47 years of my life. But, you know, I'm really proud of myself. I'm

very proud of my birth mother. We don't have a relationship, but I hope she will always feel proud of herself and that some justice has been done in that way. That's Daisy. It was a real pleasure to meet her, Jane, and what an extraordinary thing to have persevered with doing because there just must have been so many times when Daisy wanted to just have a more normal life, a less confused life, a life where she wasn't having to deal with all of this stuff going on around her,

but she was just resolved to keep going until she made things better, you know, not just for herself, but so many other people. Well, I think her achievement is colossal. And yeah, hugely, hugely impressed by what she's done. But also how awful for the pretty much, let's's be honest the entire course of your life to be dictated by something over which you had absolutely no control and I'm incredibly relieved to hear that she got justice a form of justice at least but how it's just it speaks volumes that unfortunately this isn't one of those things that's tied up with pretty bows at the end because she doesn't have a relationship with her birth mother and i think anyone who's heard the full

story will understand why that's probably just not possible but also do you know i was really struck by um what she said just about the number of victims of carvel bennett's crime because it's not just her birth mother and her it's all of their subsequent partners children Daisy's adoptive family the other children involved in that just so many lives touched by darkness because of one man's really heinous act so yeah I mean difficult story to listen to but uh you know I hope that um I hope that people do actually because that's what Daisy wants you know and for people to have a better understanding and you can only really have an understanding when you hear a first person experience of what

that life is well I mean it was an experience that I have to say I've never I haven't heard heard anybody talk about it so So enormous respect to Daisy. And that's not her real name because she can't be identified because that would identify other people in that story. But hugely, hugely impressive woman. If you'd like to email your thoughts, it's janeandfee at times.radio. You can send us stuff about all manner of things that we are discussing on the podcast.

It's the same one for our on-air programme, which is Jane? Jane and Fi at times.radio. No, when is the programme, Jane? Oh, when is the programme? Oh, sorry. I had a sip of a rather extraordinary tomato-based martini cocktail at about quarter to five.

And the rumifications are still being felt. I knew this would happen. The accents come on again. Now, it's three o'clock, isn't it? Well, yes, it's not three o'clock now. Kick-off is at three o'clock. So, yes, a very long first half, two hours.

Starts at three o'clock and we finish at five. And if you've never tried our live radio programme before, give it a go. you just leave it on in the background you don't have to concentrate on every single thing that we're saying. Well we'd prefer it if you did No, we don't. And you can always catch us on the

app as well can't you? Oh yes and the app's free. You're going veering all over the place now have a very good evening, I think we'd better click while we're certainly nowhere near ahead. Okay, goodnight Goodnight Have a very good evening. I think we'd better quit while we're certainly nowhere near ahead. Okay, good night. Good night. We're bringing the shutters down on another episode of the internationally acclaimed podcast Off Air with Jane Garvey and Fee Glover. Our Times Radio producer is Rosie Cutler and the podcast executive producer is Henry Tribe.

But don't forget that you can get another two hours of us every Monday to Thursday afternoon here on Times Radio. We start at 3 p.m. and you can listen for free on your smart speaker. Just shout Play Times Radio at it. You can also get us on DAB Radio in the car or on the Times Radio app whilst you're out and about being extremely busy. And you can follow all our tosh behind the mic and elsewhere on our Instagram account. Just go onto Insta and search for Jane and Fee and give us a follow. So in other words, we're everywhere, aren't we, Jane?

Pretty much everywhere. Thank you for joining us. And we hope you can join us again on Off Air very soon.