Off Air... with Jane and Fi -  Trapped inside a washing machine full of digestive biscuits and regret

Episode Date: March 23, 2026

Jane and Fi are back in front of the fire, which can only mean one thing... You can watch this episode on our YouTube channel: www.youtube.com/@OffAirWithJaneAndFiThey assume the alter egos, FGTikkyTokky and JGTikkyTokky, and discuss the manosphere, the Isles of Scilly, memorial benches, note pocketing, gay icon status, and Peaky Blinders.Our new playlist 'Coiled Spring' is up and running: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/4tmoCpbp42ae7R1UY8ofzaOur next book club pick is 'A Town Like Alice' by Nevil Shute.Our most asked about book is called 'The Later Years' by Peter Thornton.If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiPodcast Producers: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

We're on. We're on. Welcome. Welcome. Welcome to our fair. Good morning. Good morning. Good morning. Good morning for you. Because... Like your dress. Thank you. Well, that's very kind. I did manage to spill something on it within moments of putting it on this morning, but it seems to have dried out. So that's good. I like your top. And also you've got a double stripe going in the shoe department there,

which is making me go a little bit woozy. Well, it's not intentional. But we have managed to not dress exactly the same, which is good. It's excellent. It's a really good start. Our wardrobe laylines have parted company. Thank God for that. Somewhere over Glastonbury tall. Yeah.

We ought to start because quite a few people in the email inbox have wanted to pay tribute to Jenny Murray, who very sadly died last week. And obviously you would know her so much better than most people. Although, and I did read this in the piece that you did for the Times, You made the very pertinent point that actually if you're one half of a presenting duo, not like us where you're co-pressing to use the technical term, then actually you are ships that pass in the night, aren't you? You're actually deliberately never in the same place at the same time.

It is a bit of an odd one. You and I work together. We work together. We do, darling. And I love it. And I used to work with a man called Peter Allen. I worked with Peter. I work with you.

Yes. Jenny and I did present the same program, though very, very rarely at the same. same time. Although I do have some, one in particular, one happy memory of working with her on a Christmas day, a pre-recorded Christmas Day edition of Women's Hour, which I think they used to record on, so I don't know, middle of December or something. And we'd assemble in one of those huge studios at the top of Broadcasting House. And there'd be a Salvation Army band or a gospel choir or, I don't know. God, those are the days. I tell you what. It won't happen in future, darling. I don't think it will. And Jenny and I would interview a sort of disparate group of members of the BBC Radio 4 family.

Oh gosh, yes. One of those. Do you remember? Yes. Was Gary Richardson involved? No, not Gary Richardson, no, but we did have Brian from the Archers. Well, there you go. Yeah, I love. He's a very funny man, actually, the man who plays Brian in the Archers. And Jenny was, she'd actually, the poor woman had had a fall, and she'd broken her humorous, which is, is that the, where is that it's your I don't know is that above your coxics she was anyway she was

she was absolutely one of those professional the show must go on people and she turned up I think she was in great pain but she was taking very strong painkillers and I will just say that she was the most mellow I ever saw her and we did have

a laugh that day we really did and she was a formidable woman a tremendous broadcast I think deep down, I know her because there were times when she was very kind to me and very thoughtful. She sent me a message the morning after my marriage breakup had appeared on the front page of one of the newspapers preposterously. I do need to say it was a very quiet weekend. And I didn't expect to hear from Jenny.

And I did. And I thought, well, I'm not going to forget that. And I also treasure another memory of her at a party we had at my house, a woman's our party. when my youngest daughter was, I think she was about six, and she knew that Jenny had had a hip replacement. So she was quite a chatty child, still is. She went over to Jenny, who always sat down, and she was one of those people who held court.

She was very much someone who did that. She would arrive in a social setting, assume a position, and maintain it. And people would come to her. They would talk to her. And my youngest daughter went over and said to Jenny, I hear you've had hip problems. And my daughter said, you know, I was born with a very, I had problems with my hip, which was true. And I had to be put into some equipment.

But I'm all right now. I can walk and I'm absolutely fine. Are you? Jenny was incredibly sweet to her and tolerated this urchin trying to make conversation with her. And I think back to occasions like that when she could be incredible. warm and very kindly. I only know Jenny through having had many colleagues who had worked on Women's Hour. The thing that people would say first about Jenny Murray was that she was fierce.

And fierce is a, you know, it can be sometimes difficult to be on the receiving end of. But she was, she was an indomitable radio journalist, wasn't she? And she wanted things to be researched at a certain level, produced at a certain level, delivered at a certain level. and, you know, there is a place for that in work because you need things to be of a high standard. She could be, she was exacting. Yeah. She had exacting standards.

And also I do think it's really, really important to say that she was a woman who came from a background, like mine and yours, no connections to the media. She wasn't someone who could pick up the phone and her godfather would magic up a job at the BBC. It wasn't like that for her. It wasn't like that for many of us. And I hugely respect.

her for that, but she was the generation ahead of us. And I think women of that generation had to be particularly, particularly indomitable. And the men, some of the men, behaved disgracefully. Let's not forget that. And I think it must have been very, very hard for that generation of women in broadcasting. And it's also really important to say that Jenny and I worked together when the issue of equal pay or lack of it came up at the BBC. And I felt, very sad for Jenny because in a way I think she felt she had she'd been a bit naive. She actually thought she was getting the going rate for public service broadcasting and she was passionate about it.

And it actually turned out when some of those salaries were published that some of the men were earning squillions. Yeah. And she wasn't. I mean at least three or four times as much. Yes. And as you and I know, you know, because we've talked about this and we've done the arithmetic, a lot for ourselves and for other women

that if you don't start out on a par with men, you never really catch up in production, in broadcasting, in your life in many areas of life. Retirement. Absolutely. It means that the compound interest that you fail to be able to achieve, I know you do. But it's not, it's never about the now.

You know, rectifying pay, balancing pay. Of course, it helps if you get to that point where it is done eventually, but all of those lost years, you'll never, ever, ever be able to get back. And that must really hurt if, as in Jenny's case, she only came to know how different her pay was. Towards the end of her 30 years after she started being paid less than money. And after 30 years of hosting discussions,

about equal pay. Equal pay for women. I mean, just unbelievable. So no wonder she was spitting tax about that, as we all were. It seems like a long time ago now. It's nearly a decade, isn't it? It is. Look where we are now.

Look where we are. We've had the last laugh there. But anyway, also just do want to express condolences to her family. And I hope she found happiness. I know she'd actually become a grandmother, which must have been such a delight for her. So I'm really pleased for her. Also, that voice, it's one of the great radio voices.

That kind of, it was authoritative, but it was also sort of, kind of velvety. It was, it had timbre. Yeah, and really quite exquisite, actually. And there isn't anybody else that sounds like Jenny. So I hope, honestly, that her last couple of years, when I didn't see her, our paths didn't cross after we stopped doing the program, which was more or less at the same time. I think we both went to the same leaving do of a much loved colleague, but she arrived after I did.

So anyway, Jenny, some lovely memories of you. So I hope you're okay. Yeah. Nicely put, lady, nicely put. So I don't know which email is appropriate to go into after that. So I'm just going to pick the first one that's in front of me. And thank you for your emails. Do you know what?

We always say this. It's like opening a jewelry box, isn't it, on a Monday morning? And you just go, oh, you know, these fantastic glittering trinkets await us and it is hard to know what to choose. It is hard to know where to go and I didn't know that travelling to the Silly Isles would be such a rich vein. But there we go. Here we go. Have I read your mind? Yes. That's exactly the one that I've got here from Bridget. Yeah. My daughter and I went to the Isles of Silly last autumn on the Salonian. I'd been visited before as a child. I'd been visited. It'd been visited. We all had.

Well, no mind you seem to have survived and was wondering that the same ship was still in service. So I did a of internet search. I found a review on social media which described the Salonians flat bottom design as riding the waves like a possessed shopping trolley in a hurricane.

It's not great. They're not going to put that on the posters, are there? It's better. The voyage was likened being trapped inside a washing machine full of digestive biscuits and regret. I think I've been inside

that washing machine more often than I care to remember. We turned up for our trip prepared for the worst, armed with, Now, is it Stojourn tablets? I don't know, I'm sure. God knows I've taken tablets for my digestion, but not those. I know. I think there must be the specific kind of seasickness tablets.

And fully gurdid for an ordeal. But actually it was fine despite crossing in quite stormy weather. There is a new Salonian coming into service soon, which has thin stabilisers and a more modern hull design. So don't be put off. The islands are beautiful and well worth a visit. And Bridget goes on to say, on a related topic, our first family holiday. to the Silly Isles in the 1970s, was funded by a tax rebate my mum received

after she was granted my father's married man's tax allowance. My mum was the only person earning in our home and her tax allowance as a woman, wife's earned income allowance, was about two-third of a married man's allowance. It's quite unfathomable these days that a man would be entitled to a bigger tax allowance. My mum is no longer with us,

but I often reflect on the fact that she was ahead of her time, as the main breadwinner in our household and on the challenges that must have come with this. I credit her for making me the feminist harpy I am today. Well, Bridget, we salute her too. And actually, that's a very nice email to do after talking about Jenny. Because she lived a life that she often then had to talk about on air

and she was the main breadwinner in her family. Yes, she was very proud of that, but also felt huge responsibility. Because it is one. Yeah. It's a colossal responsibility. And by the way, I believe it to be a responsibility for the man as well. If that's what, if it is a man who is the sole breadwinner, as it was, it still quite frequently is.

So yes, I think she'd approve of that. Very much so. She did actually, did she come on. She did occasionally appear on, fortunately, when we were at BBC, didn't she? If I could catch her eye in the piazza. So I do remember she came over once because she was, when we were doing the podcast in the, in the noisy piazza. And she came out of the main entrance of Broadcasting House, and we were always a bit, further down. And she used to do this often. And I hope she wouldn't mind me repeating this,

but she would get as soon as she got out of those front doors broadcasting house, she'd light up a fact. Yes, she was there. She was having a gasper. Yes. And we invited her over. I mean, she was a committed chugger. She was a very committed smoker. Yeah. And also, I mean, you, and you can relate to this, big dog lover. I mean, the chihuahuas. Oh, well, she was a big lover of tiny dogs. Yeah. She had chihuahuas. Yeah. She had chihuahuas. Yes, she did. And on one occasion, these are memories. When somebody dies, you do, all these memories come back. At one point, and I was absolutely petrified. I was left in charge of Madge, her chihuahua. I think it was in, was it in Hyde Park? No, Regents Park. I was petrified. Jenny went off somewhere and we were doing recording some feature on Foley and Shores, I don't know what it was. And it was me and Madge against the world. And Madge was absolutely minute. And did she do that thing that Chihuahuas do, or they shake? They just shiver.

She wasn't happy to be left with me. She wanted Jenny back. And I was just standing in Regents Park on a freezing cold day. Responsible for Madge. Anyway. Madge survived. Marge survived. We should say, and props to Rosie and Eve, this is a very beautifully adorned studio now.

Yes. And we're going to put just one of the pets, is allowed to have prime position. As pet of the week. And we have gone for Babs. Well, I'm delicious. No, you agreed to it. You agreed to. I let you have it, yeah.

He's currently known, and I'm sorry about this, everybody, but currently known in the house as Fatty Babs, because she's put on a little bit of weight. Well, the one at the back ears, no slim gym either, less we forget. Cooles is doing a very, very good impersonation of an enormous cushion. And then we got Nancy to the right.

I love that shot of Nancy. Yeah, that's a beautiful picture. But Cools looks like a ginger nut with a head. He is a big ginger nut. And Nancy has not been specially lit, for that portrait. She was just sitting in front of the fire. So she's got this golden glow.

But I have to say that her cleavage is extraordinary. I think that's almost an award-winning shot. It's absolutely beautiful. It's quite provocative. Yes. Right. Let's move on. And don't forget Dora.

Dora's over there and there for looking longingly, longingly upwards. Yeah, well, I'm not quite sure what she's looking at. When's my food coming? Yes, exactly. Happy weekend, Sarah wishes us. Well, yes, mine was bang average, if I'm honest, Sarah, but thank you for that.

Just checking, you know, you can buy Tim Tams in Waitrose. I love them. I would personally never go near a penguin, but these are something else. I don't agree, I'm afraid. I had my first Tim Tam last week. I only got two mouthfuls in, and I put it in the bin. Why? I didn't ever like penguins, and I thought these were a poor substitute for a penguin.

Is that the one that describes something extraordinary that you can do with the Tim Tams? It isn't, no. Because there's somebody suggested that you can break off the corners, and then use it as a straw to suck your tea up through it. I know. It's daring. I'll find that. If we don't manage to do it today, we'll definitely be doing it tomorrow.

Sarah says, keep up the good work. You're my sanity. Won't reflect on that any more deeply as it could be worrying all round. Oh, don't worry, Sarah. We're both as mad as frogs. So please don't feel untethered if you're listening to this. And we slightly tether you because it does the same phrase. It tethes us.

It tells us. It does. Swade's bassist, incoming from Gene, listening to Wednesday's pod, I heard Jane say that she shared living space with Swades, Swade's bass guitar. He wouldn't have known anything about it. We lived in the same. No, I think he's probably doing exactly the same thing. He's probably, he's probably sitting in, where would he be? I think it'd be somewhere in a nice apartment in Blackheath.

I think that's where a lot of musicians end up. And he'd be saying, oh, yeah, I shared living. space with one of Woman's Hour's presenters who's now at the Times. I'd love to think he was doing that. He isn't. But anyway, quite a few people wanted to know whether it was Richard Osmond's brother.

Because Richard Osmond's brother, that's right, Matt Osmond. Yes, I mean, it could have been. Okay, you don't know. I'm afraid I can't feather the nest of that particular anecdote. Okay. As with so many of my stories,

some of the finer details are lost in the midst of confusion. Yeah, well, that's, fine. I mean, if he's listening or anybody's listening who could add any detail and fact to this anecdote, we'd love to hear from you. Quite a few people as well have commented on the fact that in our new publicity photograph, which is against a very lovely magenta background. Yeah, it's a good colour. It's a nice colour. Very nice colour. You are making a bit of a funny hand pose. So Kat, who is a long time and youthful listener, do you know how old Kath is?

21. 28. Oh, wow. Anyone in their 20s, very, very welcome. Like many other listeners, I too have watched the Manosphere documentary in recent days and I'm eagerly awaiting your takedown. Well, that'll happen in a minute. However, I'm wondering if anybody else has picked up on the striking resemblance between the Manosphere's matrix hand symbol and James Pose in your new promotional imagery. Am I actually working undercover for the Manusphere? Well, if you, so Kat has very kindly actually provided some comparative screenshots. And we can do it. We're visualising this podcast, don't we? So if you're watching it, here comes the symbol. So the matrix thingy is like that. Yeah.

You're doing a that. Yes. And in your promotional pose. I'm standing awkwardly and doing something. You're doing something very. Not entirely dissimilar. Yes. The only, you've just got to, you've got to slightly raise, you've got to raise thumbs.

I don't know what you're doing there. It's the masons. It is, something like that. Yeah. But I don't think you're symbolising that at any moment you might drop a red pill and say something truly offensive about female bits. Or are you? I know.

I think it's one thing for your straight hair to go curly. For me to become a fully operational manisphemeraholic, that would be a curveball, wouldn't it? But nobody was expecting, no. So did you get to the end of the documentary? I did. I did just about get to the end of it. I mean, I think what did you think about?

You see, I do, I've watched a lot of his programs over the years. Everybody has. And do you remember his father, the travel writer? Paul. Yeah. Did you ever interview him? Do you know, I don't think I did. I did love his books.

And one of them, Calhoun Tong, set in Hong Kong. Yeah. I thought it was superb. But no, I don't think I ever interviewed him. Did you? No. But it's interesting, you remember that book by him. I remember the book.

Do you remember the book he wrote about walking around the coast of Britain? No. Was it called the Pepper Path? No, it wasn't called that. I can't remember what travels around the other? I don't know, but he did write that. And I read that and I really enjoyed it. I thought that was really interesting.

I don't know why I wanted to mention Paul Thruh, when we were talking about Louis. But at the beginning of the Manosphere program, Louis Thruh does announce quite grandly, I've begun to note it, or a couple of years ago, I began to notice that the internet was full of these men spewing this peculiar stuff about women. And I did think, well, yeah, obviously this is your documentary and you must own it at the very start,

but lots of women and feminist writers and academics had already plunged into this world. But I do think it's important that men make programmes about it. I mean, there's actually no point in you and I making a documentary. And this is exactly what we've... This is the difficult thing. We've said to lots and lots of men that we've interviewed along the way.

And in fact, I think didn't we try and coax Ross Kemp into actually submitting a proposal about doing a manosphere documentary? Because it's somebody like him as well. Yeah. And I say somebody like him because I think he does display. He's a manly man, isn't he? Yeah. He's very. He's a bunch of looking, yeah.

We are visualising and I'm making a bicep move here. I'll just tell you what. Take my glasses off and you could be Ross Kemp. God, it's only Monday. Because you're right, if we make a documentary about the Manosphere and, do you know, I did try years ago with the fantastic producer Sarah Cudden to, we had an idea to, and it wasn't an original one to try and investigate the in-cell movement by getting inside the in-cell movement. And we both had to stop our attempts to do it because it was so frightening what we found within it. So I think women are entitled to fail on that score that you suddenly don't want to take your head

to that place where you are being described as the enemy, simply a body, a vessel for assault and all of that kind of stuff. But also, you and I know that our voices against those voices will just create, there won't be a bridge between them. So if you and I went to interview HS Tiki-Tocky, and by the way, I think that we should now be known as FG Tiki-Toki and J-G Tiki-Ticky, because that definitely conveys an element of the serious nature of our work.

What I'm not prepared to do is wear that too tight clothing and the cross-body bag. And the permanent over the body bag thing. But if you and I went to interview H.S. Tiki-toki, there would just be an expectation of animosity between us. And I think what is helpful is to try and, meet them on their own turf to find out more about what they actually believe in. And I do think Louis Thru managed to do that.

But there's an element of performance in all those documentaries, isn't there? Which it's very entertaining and keeps you watching. Did I want to see a little bit more challenge? I don't know, maybe I did, Jane. Yeah. Or maybe that's just because maybe the challenge is simply in the, just ridiculous nature of some of the things that they say. Give them enough rope.

Yes. Yeah. And look, they were morons. They are morons. And he is very much not a moron. And when somebody who's rather clever spends considerable amounts of time with somebody who's a moron and films them,

then you are going to get a version of events, aren't you? I wish somebody would turn the tables. It's Marlon Gaines, isn't it? the guy who does the... Well, you'd been talking about him a couple of weeks ago. Yeah. Fresh and Fit podcast because our listener Tonya had recommended that we investigate his work

a little bit more, which we will do, Tonya. So he, for people who haven't seen the documentary, part of his shtick is that he will get lots of women who are on Instagram and on only fans round the table at his podcast. And he

in an effort to prove that women are shooting for the stars in terms of what they want from men, he asks them to describe what their perfect man is. So how much they should earn, what their physical attribute should be, how tall they should be. And then he puts it into this, you know,

his Marlon calculator and comes up with the percentage of men available who fit that profile. And then he laughs at the women and says, you know, you've just got to change your expectations because only 0.40% of men in the world fit that, you know, earn over 300 grand a six foot tall and have got three beach apartments in Miami or whatever it is. But you could equally turn the tables on the men, couldn't you?

If you asked him what he wanted in a woman, I think it would be a very, very small percentage of women who would fit his bill. A lot about this world is about the focus is on men who've been rejected by women. Well, I'm a woman, and you'd be amazed to hear that some men have rejected me. You know, I'd join you on that. And I've just had, do you know what, Fee, I've simply had to learn to live with it. I am not currently married to Brad Pitt. No.

I mean, I... You should be. You absolutely should be. Of course I should be. You should be livid that you're not. I'm incensed. You should. But of course, I'm not incensed.

I'm just getting on with life. I had a Nacado delivery before 7 o'clock. Oh, good God. I know. That's a bit disturbing for the neighbours. I think it was quite disturbing for the young man who brought the bagels and the ginger shot, to be perfectly honest with you. Right. It's quite a lot of clanking involved there.

But you're right. The teaching of understanding rejection would be an incredibly helpful thing. Welcome to human existence. Nobody gets everything they want. And you certainly don't get everything you want in the Lerve department. Excuse me. Fee, I know it's a, you'll be amazed to hear this. How are you spelling that?

L, six U's, R, double V, two E's. All right, JG, tiki toky. This is why we should be out there in the womanosphere. strutting about in this extra tight lycra stuff. Well, maybe that's another thing that we can add to our... I thought your idea of... You also suggested that we just read out the statements of the leader of the free world every now and again,

but just in a kind of blank, not particularly expressive way. We should just quote from... We should do that. The Manuspero. No, I'd like to do that very much. So I have got Marlon's book. I have paid money for it. Oh, my God, you have paid money.

Oh, I'll give you half. I think it's, well, what can I say about it? It's called Why Women Serve Less. Deserve Less. Deserve less. Yep. I mean, it's pretty excruciating. But yes, I'll bring it in and read sections from it.

And for the leader of the free world, I really think, and if anybody would like to volunteer their services for this, he's nearly 80 or is 80, Donald Trump. Oh, he's 80 in the summer, I think. Yeah. Okay. So we are looking for a woman who's going to be 80 this summer. And we would like to invite you at a time of your choosing to record some excerpts from some of Donald Trump's most pertinent speeches.

And we're just going to see what people think when they listen to that rambling. I'm here to tell you. Nonsense. Just read by a woman his own age. Exactly. If you're thinking of volunteering and you're nervy, we won't ask you to read out the bit where he talks about

the size of the late golfer Arnold Palmer's genitalia, because that would be really weird. I mean, that's still sticks in my mind as being quite the oddest thing I've ever heard from anybody in public life in my many, many years on the planet. Should we veer off to the Natural History Museum? Please, go through. Let's do dynos snores. Well, dynosnores, although this is the one, it's quite interesting this. It's from Caroline.

I took my then-toddler son to go and see the dinosaur. But the first stop on arrival was, of course, the cafe. Well, I mean, I only ever went to the cafe. I never really went to anywhere. On entering it, I noticed some currency lying on the floor, nobody nearby to claim it. I thought it was a five euro note she's put here. So perhaps, do you mean pounds?

Well, no. Then Brexit, Brian. I mean, we've got no way of knowing. I think it must be euros, because we don't have a £500 note. That's true. Thinking it was a five euro note, I bent down. I haven't got any money, love.

I bent down and put it in my pocket. Only when I sat down, a table, did I pull it out to look more closely, and I realised it was actually a 500-Euro note. I have to admit, I spent the next hour calling various friends for advice, and this is very honest of you, Caroline, whilst furtively walking around the museum trying to work out what to do next, I'm not going to lie. I wanted to get in a cab and go straight to Liberty and buy myself some jewellery. What I actually did, being conscientious, was to hand it to the security guards, who took me through a thorough process of reseating the find. When I tell the story now, people are

shocked and ask why the hell I didn't just go straight to the door and catch that taxi to liberty. I'm not going to lie, it did ruin my visit to the museum. What would you have done? Ask Caroline. Well, I think I know what you do. Well, go on. Well, I think you and I would both just take the money back. Yeah. I just think we would.

It would rest on my conscience. I couldn't enjoy it. Yeah, too much. No, if I just could. If I pocketed it. But there is, there's a level of note where that altrued. would stop. So if you'd found a tenor?

I think a five or a tenor. I've just been completely honest. I'm having that. You could have got yourself a slightly underfilled baguette for that, couldn't you? Only just. Well, no, not with a coffee. Not anymore. No, no, not with a coffee.

No, not these days. Not these days. Confessions are always welcome on this. And we won't even give it some kind of a great big theme tune or a spin-off series. We're not Simon Mayo, are we? No. Angela joins us, Angie in Chelmsford, to simply recommend the Storyville and its Oscar award-winning film. Yeah. Mr. Nobody Against Putin. Have you watched it yet?

Well, I have to be honest. My sister messaged me only last night to say you must watch it. My ex-husband has been banging on about it for weeks. I haven't watched it. I really will. Okay. I really, really will. People say it's a thing of absolute wonder. I watched it over the weekend, and it is one of the most remarkable is it? documentary films that I think I've ever seen. It's really, really thoughtfully, brilliantly done. Yeah.

Because what's being filmed is interesting in and of itself. But the timeline and the way it jumps around is just brilliant. Really, really brilliant. And we hope to have Mr. Nobody on the podcast. Oh, we will be using the services of a translator, but we are investigating that possibility at the moment. Outline what actually happened. So he is a young teacher in a town in Russia, famous for its copper mining plant and for being probably the most polluted city in the world.

But actually his teaching role is to be the events coordinator. So he's always filming. Right. So he is really upset by the invasion of Ukraine and the war and the conscription in particular involved in the war. because he knows that his young students are going to be the people sent off to war. Yeah, because they tend not to recruit from the bigger cities, do they? And not really from the liberal elites, either. They've found ways of their young sons not being called up.

So he feels very, very viscerally that the war is wrong. And then this extraordinary Dictat comes from central government that the schoolchildren have to be taught this propaganda about Russia and Russia's place in the world and the insignificance of democracies like ours so he can film it so he does

he's then contacted he finds a way of being contacted by the Storyville team and hatches a plan to film this in secret although he's doing it in plain sight

and then smuggle the footage out of Russia and turn it into this film he can't live in Russia anymore he's left Russia and he's left Russia and he's left Russia and he gosh, we must admire his bravery

because we know what happens to people who cross Putin and he's a young man who's going to look over his shoulder for the rest of his life. But it's absolutely mind-boggling what the children are then taught. And, you know, I won't say anything else about it because otherwise, you know,

you're not going to be intrigued when you're watching it. But it's so sad, Jane. It's so, so, so sad. And I did think, and let's talk about this in a bit more, depth when you've watched it and other people have watched it too. You and I would be powerless to resist having that kind of propaganda shoved down our throats at a young age. You know, I think sometimes we go, you know, all this, you know, Russia's a wash with propaganda, but they've

got the internet, so why can't they find out everything that, you know, is available to us? Yeah. But I don't think if we have been brought up having those kind of lessons from teachers who we really loved and a city governed by people who we really admired, I'm not sure that we would be capable of seeking out a different way of thinking and believing that. And of course, that's the power. It would be wonderful to think that we'd be clever enough and savvy enough. But I don't think I would be. No, I don't think it would be.

If I'd been indoctrinated from an early age. And also, let's just be honest, I mean, Britain has, we've lived in, and we've been so fortunate to live our lives here in this sort of impassee. perfect, ragged democracy that is still better than any other alternative system. And you can express your feelings and you can say what you think and you can take part in the democratic process. And Britain wasn't invaded in World War II. But let's just own the fact that if it had been, there's no way that had I been alive, I'd have been a member of the plucky resistance. I'd have just done, I'd have just kept my head down and got on with whatever came my way.

I would love to think I'd have been brave enough to hide people who would have been in peril but would I? We're not going to know, are we? And it's always a good question. But I mean, I... To ask yourself. Yeah, I think it's really important to ask yourself

just how biddable would I have been if I'd been faced with those sorts of choices. So I don't know. I don't blame the suffering citizens of Russia for just going along as best they can. I can't see what alternative if there would be for them really. Well, will you try and watch the documentary this week.

I will, I tell you what I did see yesterday. I'd never seen it before. It was Peaky Blinders. Peaky Blinders. The film. The film? Have you seen it? No, because we did the first series of peeky blinders.

It was very, very violent by the end of that. Oh, well, you see, I'd never seen it before. So I watched it. I felt I'd had my, I felt I'd peaked. Very good. I was a bit bamboozled by, it's almost like when they run out of puff for the script, they just play some heavy metal. That happened quite a lot in the feature film,

which is the sort of end game for the characters who I'd never met before, so I was sorry to see one go at the end. But anyway, and they all wear these funny hats, and it's all, I'm not sure whether I really bought it. And the script is funny because they converse in a way that nobody does in real life, you know, with lots of really important pauses

and men brooding and staring out of windows. I mean, how much brooding can imagine? And do. I mean, the central character that played by Killian Murphy has given up peaky blindering for reasons that are totally unknown to me because I hadn't watched it before. And he's holed up in a secluded, ruined manor house with only one gentleman retainer. So does he do quite a lot of staring into the middle distance considering his memory bank? Exactly. He's writing a book and he's brooding because men are allowed to brood. But I kept thinking, well, how is he heating the place? But I don't, where's his money, God.

What do you have to? We have to open it to the public in order to pay for the roof. It makes all of that. I mean, I just, I had too many questions. But anyway, do like the hats. Those funny, baggy cats. Well, they know, they do. I don't think they suit anybody.

If you came, next time we're visualising the podcast, I'm getting a pinky blind. It's getting a picky blind a cat. So I won't be watching the series, but I can't say I didn't enjoy the film. I rather did. But as I say, the music just cut in when they run out of scripting path, I thought. Anyway.

We've been promoted to gay icon status. Oh, well, I couldn't be more thrilled. Okay. Yeah. This one comes in from Darren, who's in Guildford. Now, we forgive Guilford because there were technical issues that night. And we're not rude about Guilford anymore, are we? No, if you say so, sister.

I was listening to your recent discussion on camp, says Darren. And I felt it was my duty as a homosexual man to intervene before things. spiraled further. Thank you, Darren. We do appreciate the intervention. We love an intervention. First, a vital point of order. It is Liza with a Z. It's never Lisa with an S. And that's my fault, because we were talking about Liza mentally. And I think I described her as Lisa. Okay. So that's wrong. To confuse the two, says Darren, is a minor ecclesiastical sin in our community, usually punishable by being forced to watch cabaret on a loop until the sequence blind you. You also touched on women possessing camp qualities, which leads us to the high stakes world of gay icons.

Gay icon in brackets noun. This is a dictionary definition. A woman usually possessing a dramatic backstory, a penchant for oversized eyewear, or a spectacular lack of emotional regulation whom gay men adopt as a secular saint to compensate for their own lack of a supportive grandmother. I don't wish dictionary. It's from Darren, but we like it. We do like it, Darren. And thank you very much.

And Darren, I'm going to crown him, the King of Guilford. Yeah. I hope you'll take that compliment. It is with great pride that I officially anoint you both as gay icons. Jane, I realize this isn't quite a damehood or a CBE. I've given up caring about all that now. Yeah, it's weird, isn't it? I saw two very, very old school friends who I hadn't seen for 40 years on Friday,

Joe. Oh, my goodness. Did you just bump into them? No, we had arranged at lunch. It was very, very lovely. and obviously we were considering the path that other of our school friends had been on and a couple of them have done extremely well for themselves

and been gonged, being gonged. Couldn't believe it. But frankly, it's the highest accreditation the community can bestow. It carries significantly more weight in a West Kensington wine bar than any ribbon from the palace ever could. Why this sudden elevation,

do you want to know why? Yes, please. Three reasons. The aesthetic, your pink and orange jump, I can't say that. Your pink and orange jumpsuit photo shoot was a cultural reset. Oh. Now I think, but was it pink and green? Are you referring to the terrible line by Xteran?

Has it all just gone hazy and neon in your mind? I don't know whether the signal to Guilford is as strong as it could be. Well, maybe we did. Did we ever wear matching jumpsuits? I wouldn't rule it out. Very true. But in our quick fit years, we may well have done. The fairy friends, your mutual devotion to animals

suggests a level of nurturing that every gay man seeks in a surrogate matriarch. The shared neuroses, your ability to find a minor social slight and dissect it for 45 minutes in your podcast with the precision of a surgeon is the exact energy we bring to every brunch. Now, Fee, we do need to address your slightly less than enamored approach to musicals. Usually this would be a disqualifying blemish,

but in your case, we've decided to overlook it. welcome to the pantheon ladies don't let the glitter go to your heads Darren that's such a lovely lovely email we appreciate it enormously and and I would say I'm not trying to blow smoke or you know forn over you Darren but I've been to a lot of musicals for someone who doesn't like musicals I'm just putting me out of Are you a secret fan of musical? I don't well I don't know I mean I do seem to be drawn to booking them a little bit more actually than something very very

dry but profound at the element later. It's seven brides for seven brothers for you is your Christmas gift. I'm all set to work on it. We probably need to get a wiggle on and go in a second. But I just want to say thank you to Jazz. He says, I looked into getting a memorial bench when my soulmate Naomi died a couple of years ago. But they were a bit out of my price range at Edinburgh. Godfee, it was over six grand for one. Yes, I was a bit horrified at that. That was in the Royal Botanic Garden. So I don't know whether they're particularly expensive. So I decided, says Jazz, to order an engrave plaque from good old Timpsons and did a bit of a DIY job. I chose quite an unkempt looking bench next to part of the braid burn behind Blackford Hill in Edinburgh.

It's a place I strongly associate with Naomi because we often walk there and she had once gone for a wild swim in the burn. It was bloody freezing and the water was barely deep enough to cover her. No actual swimming was done but at least her craving for cold water was satisfied. And he has sent an image, or jazz has sent an image. I'm not sure whether it's male or female. I do apologize. Or you're male or female, I should say. The words I chose for the plaque are lyrics from a Kate Rusby song that we both love.

Underneath the Stars, I'll meet you. There beneath the Stars, I'll greet you. That's very sweet, isn't that? That's lovely. It's lovely. I was a bit nervous to be seen sticking it on with extra song, strong super glue. But on the morning, I did it. I had the place to myself.

And I know she would have loved this tiny, rebellious act. I think that's brilliant. Well done, Jazz. And I bet every single time you pass the bench gives you a real jolt of pleasure. Yeah, I think that's wonderful to you. I mean, I guess after a while are we just going to have to accept that a bench is going to need to carry more than one commemorative plaque? Gosh, it might come to that, might. Yeah. But, I mean, whilst the places are charging six grand for one, I think we're going to have to allow people the simple pleasure of attaching a little Timpson's effort. Yeah. Yeah. I admire your slightly rebellious spirit too. And can we say a huge, huge hello to Fleur who has said,

I totally agree that the idea of a Park Bench Memorial is sweet and lovely. This memorial is for my ex-husband who died unexpectedly in his late 50s. It's on Battersea Park near where we lived when we were first married. Here's a picture of us so young, such a long time ago. And it says his chosen resting place, a Tim kind who died in 2011. And for the picture of you and Tim on your wedding day, I don't know when that was.

I'm going to say sometime in the 1980s just because of your hair. Let's have a look. It's so lovely, Jane. Oh, that is lovely. Yes, that's sweet. So lovely. So, you know, we, I mean, that must be,

is it slightly confusing? You know, it's your ex-husband. I always think those emotions must be, can be very tricky when an ex dies. You know, what you're entitled to feel, where you're entitled to be. I don't know. I don't know. Who you're entitled to contact.

I think that's probably maybe sometimes tricky. Maybe you navigated it with ease for it. But it's a really, really beautiful, beautiful picture. And Battersea Park, gosh, what a lovely, lovely, lovely park that is. Yeah. Well, thank you. We had some lovely emails, actually, about benches and can't read all them out, but very grateful to you because I think it's a really,

well, we said last week, didn't we, how we both find the whole idea of it, really, really touching. Yeah. It's lovely. I'm quite like a memorial toilet in London Fields because for a long time there were only two working female toilets in London. What were the other two doing?

Were they on strike? They were just permanently not working. Oh, right. And then they built not one but two new sets. And they're very nice actually, Jane. They're very nice. They're quite well kept. If I'm spared, I'll cut the ribbon on that.

Yes, could you? But I think a little plaque to fees, wheeze would be very nice. I'd be happy with that. that. What a way to end. Thank you so much. I actually do need to go. You need to go. Well, we should go. She needs to go. It's Jane and Fee at Times. We'll regroup tomorrow. Goodbye. I think you like it or not. Congratulations. You've staggered somehow to the end of another off-air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do do it live, every day, Monday to Thursday, 2 till 4 on Times Radio.

The Jeopardy is off the scale. And if you listen to this, you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online, on DAB, or on the free Times Radio app. Offair is produced by Eve Salisbury, and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler.