Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Triggered by the word 'teats'

Episode Date: February 28, 2023

Jane and Fi are talking all things breastfeeding.They're joined by art historian Joanna Wolfarth to discuss her book Milk: An Intimate History of Breastfeeding; it's out now.If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] Producer: Kea BrowningTimes Radio Producer: Kate LeePodcast Executive Producer: Ben Mitchell Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

it's quite possible jane that we might have in the offing off air's first wedding oh yeah because olivia who wrote to us from brisbane yeah and she was the young lady who was a little bit lonely on coming back from her friend's fantastic wedding. So lots of people have got in touch, one of your favourite phrases, I know, to suggest positive things that she could do. And one, John, has got a positive person that she could meet. Dear Jane and Fee, I was listening to your podcast earlier and heard your Australian listener

who'd been left feeling some post-wedding blues after attending her friend's marriage. I would like to firstly echo your reassurance to the listener in question. This was a very normal feeling. I, like Jane, don't often attend weddings these days, but I felt it makes it sound like you're invited to loads, but you simply don't wish to attend.

No, thank you. I'm no longer attending weddings, just funerals. Oh, God. Well, shall I carry on? Yes. Secondly, I wanted to perhaps a bit boldly suggest my younger brother as a potential romantic interest for the young woman in question. John does immediately say it does occur to me that I'm not 100% sure

if your correspondent made her preference for the gender of her future romantic interest clear. So apologies if I'm suggesting the wrong sort of person. But if your correspondent is interested in a young man, my brother is 30, is currently touring Australia on a year-long post-COVID sabbatical. He's very handsome, very funny, and I think perhaps most importantly, is just one of the nicest, very funny and I think perhaps most importantly is just one of the nicest, most genuine people I know. If you're after further references, I know my sister listens to your podcast and I'm sure she'd echo my description. We're going to need somebody outside

the family, John, but he does sound absolutely lovely. Yes. And John ends by saying, I've already lost one sibling to a glamorous life abroad and I'm increasingly resigned to lose the other siblings so it would be some comfort to at least lose him to someone who listens to your podcast. What a lovely, thoughtful email to send. Yes, thank you John.

And Olivia, if you are interested then we will put you in touch in a proper way. Do we have to fill out a form or something? We'll fly out to Australia and we will chaperone you. Good idea, sister. We'll make sure it's ordered.

No, that would, I mean, who knows? Who knows? It might work out. And actually, Olivia in Brisbane, I hope you're touched by the fact that so many people are, they're just interested and they're sympathetic, really. This is from Jill. She says, I listened to your podcast. I wanted to write to you about Olivia in Brisbane. I was so similar to her a couple of years ago, although I was a bit older at 36.

I'd spent a few years with nobody special, seeing so many friends around me in relationships and having families. And it was a really lonely and sad time for me. Eventually, I made a very conscious decision that I was going to spend a year really looking for that special someone. And as well as doing the regular dating app stuff, I did three other big things. I signed up with a matchmaker. Yes, it did cost money to get on her books, but that meant that everyone else signed up with her had also paid money and really wanted a serious relationship. It didn't work out with anyone she matched me with in the end but it was a relief to meet people who had the same goals as I did and actually there was some real potential

in some of the matches she made for me. Two, I made myself vulnerable and I asked all of my good friends and their male partners if they knew anyone they could set me up with. Thinking back on that now it makes me squirm with embarrassment because I'm a private person but I did end up on some lovely dates and was amazed how many good single people there were out there who I hadn't been meeting on the apps and three I asked my friends to write me a message telling me how they described me so that I could use those words and their I asked my friends to write me a message telling me how they described me so that I could use those words and their descriptions in my dating profiles. Some of the things they wrote back to me were really wonderful and they actually brought me to tears. They gave me a bit of

confidence, confidence I hadn't had for a long time if ever and it gave me a different way to describe myself on the apps as well. Now I don't know if any of this will help Olivia, but maybe it'll give her a few ideas. And yes, this is the good bit. I know it's not all that matters in life, but it's important to say that Jill did meet her person a week before her 37th birthday, and I'm still very happy with him five years later.

I'm so grateful for him and us in a way that I don't think couples who met in their 20s can ever understand. There you go. Jill, thank you for your email too. Really lovely. And you know what? I completely agree with you, Jill, about number two and making yourself vulnerable. And I think it feels so difficult, doesn't it? I think it feels so difficult, doesn't it, if you find yourself singled or you've just been single too long to not allow that, I can never say the word properly, carapace? What? That mask to develop, I'm fine, I'm OK, I'll get through it, whatever.

And I think it's very brave but does also reap rewards to actually put your hand up and say, brave but does also reap rewards to actually put your hand up and say I'm a bit lonely I'm a bit anxious I'm a bit bored I'm a bit sad is there any chance that someone could help me out here and nine out of ten people will but I think you just have to be brave in that moment and say and you're right Jane there's nothing wrong with being single as long as you're happy being single but it's miserable it doesn't matter what your situation is. We all have our moments. But I think you raise a really good point. And I think it's hard.

I mean, this is me personally talking. I do think it's hard to make yourself vulnerable, to say to people, you know what? Yeah, I am fine most of the time. But there's always a but for whoever you are. But yes, I think being single, whether you're in your 30s, I think there's a pressure in your 30s because so many people are matching up around you and then the baby thing starts and if that's not happening to you or for you that can be really difficult and then again in your in your late 50s or even your 60s or 70s

you can just feel oh everyone else everyone else is in a couple and i'm not what's wrong with me and it's really difficult so thanks to everybody who just took the time and were so thoughtful about the emails because there have been some really nice ones really nice ones and where we started with Olivia as well was her being fed up with the platitudes coming her way that you know this will happen

of course it'll happen to you it'll happen when you least expect it and actually how fantastic that so many of our listeners are with us on actually let's do something practical for Olivia instead of chuck all of that back at her. So, look, this is what we call in the business a developing story. Yes, here's actually just one from Linda who says,

can I just say I totally identified with the lady who wrote in about coming home from a wedding. I'm exactly the same and also find that people do say similar platitudes when I mentioned being single at the age of 50 something. I don't know what the answer is. I have tried online dating to minimal success, but I do have great friends and I'm not defined by being single. It's just that I would like to meet somebody. I just wanted to say to others like me, you are not alone. Linda, thank you too. And it's Jane and Fee at times.radio. Now, we had a very good guest on the programme today

didn't we? Shall we introduce the big guest and maybe just squeeze an email or two in afterwards? Yes, although can I just draw attention to the Pennestone Cinema in Barnsley? You may. Thanks to our correspondent Colin in Sheffield. It's a paramount cinema. It's a fantastic

old traditional cinema where you can step back in time to when everybody went to the pictures to see the latest film. The first time I went to the Paramount, says Colin, I was quietly enjoying the film when the big screen went blank and the big lights came on.

I thought the projector had broken. Then a whirring sound caught my attention from the side of the auditorium. It was a lady opening a sliding door to the bar refreshment area. Then an usherette appeared with a tray of ice creams and stood in front of the screen. Yes, it was an interval. A queue had quickly developed into the refreshment room. I was the last one into the room. I bought a coffee and sat down on the plush seating. I took a couple of quick drinks of my coffee as I didn't want to miss the restart.

Then the barmaid said, no need to rush, love. They won't start the film until everyone's back in their seats. It's wonderful and I would recommend The Paramount to anyone who wants to experience the good old-fashioned cinema rather than the crowded, overpriced and impersonal studio cinemas in the big cities. Have I sold it to you, says Colin. Yes, you have, Colin.

Well, we'll pop there after we've had our little jaunt to Brisbane. Yeah, exactly. We'll just be on tour. We're going to be so busy. What with that and the coronation and Eurovision and the snow coming next week. Do you know what I quite like in cinemas, Jane? Big headphones like the ones what we're wearing now.

How would that help in a cinema? Because then you wouldn't have to listen to the sound of everybody else eating. Oh, yeah. And everybody just eats from start to finish now. Do they? help in a cinema? Because then you wouldn't have to listen to the sound of everybody else eating. And everybody just eats from start to finish now. Do they? Yes, they do. So back in the day, sorry about the creaking doors of yonder opening

here, but there just wasn't a snack that would last you two and a half hours in a film. You got an ice cream cone or a small box of popcorn, didn't you? No, I used to get one of those grab bags of minstrels. No, there wasn't such thing as a grab bag

in the 1980s. You're imagining it. You'd be lucky if you had a family sized something, but possibly of newberry fruits. I don't like those, they're very smelly. Is it tacos? Yeah, so now you just get these trays. I don't like those. Then everybody, you know, once they finish that,

someone pops out and gets nine enormous seven ounces of Coca-Cola and all that kind of stuff. So it just goes on and on, and I just can't stand it. But why don't they just give us headphones, and then everyone could be listening at a different level, and you wouldn't have to listen to everybody chatting their way through too. It's a tiny suggestion. That's actually quite a big suggestion.

Oh, my chest, thank goodness. So today we talked to Joanna Woolfarth, the author of a really interesting book about breastfeeding. Well, about milk, really. Now, this is one of those subjects that it's never boring. Everyone has a view, and as we discussed in the conversation, there's a lot of judgment around breastfeeding, whether you do it or not, how long you do it for, where do you do it, are you doing it in the conversation, there's a lot of judgment around breastfeeding, whether you do it or not.

How long you do it for. Where do you do it? Are you doing it in the right way? What does everybody else in the family think? It's so complicated and it can be incredibly stressful. But there is a great quote in her book about breast milk, which she describes as a finely tuned substance and the only foodstuff specifically and uniquely designed for human consumption well that's true but as she describes in the conversation we're about to listen to it doesn't mean that breastfeeding itself is all that simple no it does not um so yes we know that breast milk is an extraordinary substance and i I think people have known that for forever, for thousands of years. Although it's only very, very recently that we actually have a real understanding of what breast milk is and what it contains. And so I was, you know, I was really intrigued because I'd grown up with this message of breast is best.

So I did a little search when I was writing the book of an academic database, the Web of Science. And there was something like 10,000 articles on tomatoes and something like 3,000 on breast milk. So there's very little research on breast milk. But it is a fantastic substance however um you know it's it that doesn't mean breastfeeding is easy it doesn't always mean that breastfeeding is best for for a particular woman or a particular family um and you know i felt when i was a new mother um breastfeeding was very

important for my motherhood um but i also felt very fortunate that i live in a time where we have formula where we have sterilization where we have these technologies um to support breastfeeding as well in your experience we should say your son is he's just started school so he's four and a half now um you went to hospital and and you had a few early problems and your baby was given formula. And then I think it was almost the next day that a breastfeeding counsellor came to the ward. You were all ushered to the end of the ward

and you were given a lecture about the wonders of breastfeeding, which are undeniable. And formula was really frowned upon. And that must have been difficult for you. It was very, very hard. I think that, yeah, I think that throughout my, the antenatal classes that I went to, and then immediately after I'd given birth,

so immediately after I gave birth, they were so keen for my son to breastfeed and to latch on. And he didn't. I mean, I'd had an incredibly long labour. I just wanted to be left alone with my son to breastfeed and to latch on. And he didn't. I mean, I'd had an incredibly long labour. I just wanted to be left alone with my son. I didn't want anyone else to touch me anymore, quite frankly. But so they gave him a bit of formula. And that also confused me a little bit. But because during the antenatal classes, somebody had asked about expressing milk or giving milk in a bottle and had been told this is a breast you know

a baby-friendly hospital they'd misunderstood um the the who guidelines but they were saying this is a baby-friendly hospital we cannot talk to you about bottle feeding and this is in britain in the 21st century yes yes um and then yeah the day after I gave birth, I did the right thing. And I went to the sort of breastfeeding session on the post labour ward. And she did, she spent a long time telling us about how awful formula was and how breastfeeding was wonderful. And I kind of thought, well, he's had a little bit of formula, but I'm committed to breastfeeding, you know, I will be fine, we'll be fine. Because I assumed that because it's quote-unquote natural it would be easy you know I had the I had the desire to breastfeed would be

fine that wasn't that wasn't the case so um so I thought we were doing great I went to all the breastfeeding support cafes that I had locally I was very very fortunate it was you know pre-pandemic I lived in a you know southeast London so I had a lot of options um but then in four weeks uh we were back in hospital again um because he had lost so much weight um because uh because he hadn't had enough milk I'm very thankful that that was the reason that it wasn't anything more serious but that was devastating and it also was the inspiration for you wanting to know more about breastfeeding and the history of it so can i mean fee was we and i were talking earlier about wet nurses and this extraordinary it seems to us extraordinary that women who were not the mother of the child would

be professional providers of milk to newborn babies who were not their own and not just newborns when did that die out? Or is that still happening? Well, it is still happening. So I mean, it's happening across the world in various other cultures. It's happening here in the UK as well. And there will be women who have breastfed with consent, a family member's child, a sister's baby, they may rather than directly nurse the baby, they may have, directly nurse the baby they may have you know shared breast milk informally amongst themselves that does happen um i think women that do that are very reluctant to speak about that um you know because it is still see you know it's seen as

quite squeamish actually and quite a taboo i think culturally today in the uk um so it did start to die out sort of in western europe kind of sort of towards the end of the 18th century throughout the 19th century. And for a long time, there had been, you know, wherever you look culturally across the world, there are texts that tell us what kind of breast, what kind of wet nurse you want to select, because they are going to be not only caring for your child, but they might be transmitting certain qualities through the breast milk. So you want to select because they are going to be not only caring for your child, but they might be transmitting certain qualities through the breast milk. So you want them to look a certain way.

They might, you know, a brunette might have better quality milk, for example. So there was a lot of, you know, you want to make the right choice. By the Victorian period, you have real concerns about sort of lower class women, working class women feeding upper class babies and maybe passing on some, you know, some undesirable characteristics. Like bad ways of speaking. Right. Dropping their H's.

Possibly, yeah, yeah. And you have, you know that there's there's men um you know wealthy men who who kind of write in their adulthood and kind of blame all their health problems on the the wet nurse and her poor quality milk so it starts to die out but also i mean it's interesting you talk about them being paid. And to me, that's a really interesting move towards, you know, you paying a woman to care and to nurse for her lactation, for that labour. And then as breastfeeding goes out, as wet nursing goes out of fashion, women are no longer being paid for that labour.

And to be a wet nurse, do you have to be lactating anyway? So to have had your baby recently yourself, or can any woman start to lactate if a baby latches on? A bit of both. So I think for most wet nurses, they would have had their own baby, they would be lactating and, you know, it works on a supply and demand basis. So as long as there's that demand, you know, as long as they've got their own children or they're nursing and they're employed but um people can induce lactation um and when i was researching this book i was very interested in things like same-sex couples um and one you know one mother but who's not the birth mother um will in you know induce lactation in herself through a

combination of kind of maybe hormones or just kind of expressing and putting the baby to her breast and I remember feeling incredibly envious when I read that reason when I read about those cases and is it a myth that you can't mix breast and bottle uh yeah absolutely I mean I you know before I went into all of this um you know I just assumed you did one or the other right and it was a choice that you made probably before you give birth you know in terms of what was right for you or what your family did or whatever um and so when we introduced mixed feeding um when I was in hospital and they said you're going to have to start giving your son top-ups of formula I was so confused and I felt so um so alone like oh god and then I find out

that actually it's incredibly common and I remember being told I don't know whether you were both told this that that if I introduced a bottle to my babies then they would lose the ability to latch on to a breast because it would be a different way for them to feed were you told that one too yeah yeah and i had to that was very cruel i just thought well i'm sure that i'm sure that that they could manage both if they're hungry they're probably going to give it some welly whatever it is there's a nice text here from a listener who says when my son was born prematurely i had a huge oversupply of milk and i donated it to the hospital milk bank for other babies to benefit. Very proud to have helped others at a time when I felt I had little control over the

care of my own son. And I just want to read this one as well from Sarah who says, I am currently doing extended breastfeeding. I've got a two and a half year old and early baby feeding judgment pales into insignificance. Whilst natural term weaning is anything up to seven years, and it is accepted in other cultures, it isn't in ours. And yes, I do have a sense of humor, but no, hearing little Britain quotes for the umpteenth time does not, do not make me laugh, she says. And this is where society, us, we pile in on women

from every angle offering judgment and getting, why should we? Why do we do this? Yeah, yeah. I don't know. You're, you're, you're, you know, you're in trouble with either way, right? Yeah. You don't breastfeed or you don't breastfeed for long enough. Or you breastfeed for too long.

Or you breastfeed for too long. Or you breastfeed in public or you don't breastfeed in public um it it seems like um yeah yeah there's no you know there's no way of winning in this game and one of the strategies does you know one of the strategies i think is that we pit women against each other and groups of women against each other um and in reality i don't think that happens maybe as much as as we fear it happens you do go to some, I'm going to say, quite awkward places in the book. It's really wide ranging. There's a lot about you and your own experience,

but also a great deal about how others feel and might have felt. And there's a bit where you acknowledge that as a child gets older, there are times when, frankly, their demands for your breasts are quite irritating and at times almost a bit repellent. Do you want to just sort of say more about that? Because it's a very under-discussed area. It is, yeah. So I should say after we had these initial problems,

I did carry on and breastfeed my son until he weaned himself for about 18 months. And particularly towards the end yeah they get more and more demanding with with what they want they can be more kind of you know sort of physically demanding um and uh there were times particularly during night feeds um particularly when my son was waking like every 45 minutes for a feed. And I would feed him. And but I had this overwhelming urge to just push him off. And I never did that. But it was this real full body, as you said, kind of repelling impulse. And it was only when we again researching this book and speaking to other women that I found out that actually others experiences

there is a term for it's called breastfeeding aversion people have it to varying degrees some people have real real kind of issues with um let down um so that kind of rush of oxytocin that you get when your you know your baby latches on um for them it can elicit a really negative experience um sort of emotional experience so um so that can happen um but i do think that women are reluctant to talk about that openly and i think one of those reasons is that we are kind of bereft of a kind of language to discuss it i think to talk about maternal love in all of its kind of you know all of its joys and all of its kind of wonder but also the really difficult bits and the times when you know those those feelings are there that you just want your child to get off you and get away

that doesn't diminish the love that you have for your child in that moment as well and the complexity you need to sleep well yes exactly yes, exactly. Yeah, yeah. Our guest today is Joanna Woolfarth, author of a book called Milk, An Intimate History of Breastfeeding. And we asked Joanna how crucial it is to make sure that a mum looks after herself so that she's in the right place to care for the baby. It is about supporting the mother, supporting parents. I think that at the the moment i mean i certainly felt it that the onus is on the individual parent right and you you feel that whatever choice you

make is sort of you're responsible for that alone and you're not because if you want to successfully breastfeed if you want to establish you know breastfeeding um some people will will manage fine others will need a lot of you know will need support consistent advice you know you need that kind of network to hold you and support you you need that if you're bottle feeding formula feeding as well yeah um and i do think you know i do think that now we tend to kind of expect women to mother um you know alone in a very atomized way and um yeah yeah i think there's also so many other pressures aren't there just outside the medical profession so there are two very clear directions of travel and then actually not both facing the same way between what the nhs asks you to do favor

breastfeeding possibly for up to 12 months and a government that sees you as an economically inactive person until you return to work, which they would encourage you to do sooner than 12 months. And you cannot do both, can you? No, absolutely not. And it's really interesting you talk about the economic benefits because the WHO, the WHO, World Health Organization, estimates for every $1 invested in breastfeeding support um will result in 35 dollars in economic benefits so breastfeeding has economic benefits it has wide-reaching um societal benefits that's not to put pressure on individual mothers and to judge them if they don't but that is to say at a zoom out on and on a larger level governments need to be doing more

to support breastfeeding women and not to see not to see mothers as kind of inactive um on their you know yeah you're contributing if you're breastfeeding you are actually doing a job for you know however long you choose to do it for that figure is interesting though so that is much further down the line they've done studies that are looking at brain development at nutrition all of those kind of things that's how they're getting to the 35 dollar figure yeah yeah i think it yeah i think it is in health benefits primarily yeah okay um i just want to mention francisco francisco i hope i've got that name right both my boys refused the bottle and fed five to six times a night until they were weaned at 13 and 14 months old my rescue welsh sheepdog millie would follow

me into their bedroom every night and just sit with me while i fed she was the greatest doula and breastfeeding support i could ever have wished for um well well done to millie she does sound fantastic can we just acknowledge some some of the misogyny i was shocked by this actually because there's there's a real misogyny um that surrounds those people who don't like breastfeeding and are actually deeply unpleasant and vitriolic about people who do it yeah yeah and i often wonder you know they they might be the same people that say you know breast milk is best at the same time and i think you know this is this is a bigger cultural problem and i think culturally um in the uk we say to women breast milk is the best but we do not want to see it you know we do not want to you know can

you imagine anything worse than leaking through your t-shirt um in public um even when it comes to public breastfeeding um something like uh uh the the the majority of the uk public i think it was something like 70 thought it was more acceptable for a woman to breastfeed in a public bathroom in a toilet than it would be for her to breastfeed in a public space or on public transport or in the restaurant so so there is this you know there is this kind of distaste for it there is this squeamishness um around you know, around women's bodies generally, I would say. But the sort of the perceived messiness of women's bodies.

And I think, you know, breast milk is sometimes seen, misunderstood as a sort of bodily fluid, as some sort of contagion, right? As some sort of waste fluid. And yeah, it's definitely a misogyny yeah you mentioned um that during the pandemic and i hope i've got this right you can correct me if i'm completely wrong that breast milk from covid positive women was stored and then given to people in care homes i believe so i believe so there was certainly yeah there was certainly um a lot of interest in

breast milk and its healing properties its antibody properties yeah um this is nothing new breast milk you know i'm a cultural historian yeah right so um looking back across history breast milk features as a kind of health remedy so from early egyptian texts, right the way through to, there was one minister in Massachusetts in the late 18th century, who recorded having his wife's breast milk, and that kind of cured him from near death from fever. So it's always been understood as something that has beneficial qualities beyond the baby. And I think, but i think when it came to covid19 one of the things that struck me was the potential that breast milk might have as a as a kind of therapy as a healing product and then that lack of research um coming up to that point you know

that kind of wish if only we had more research on this then we might you know better understand how it could contribute to to sort of helping covid do we so we still don't know for certain what is in it then because i i think i read in your book that it can differ between babies that girls breast milk if you had a girl your breast milk will have slightly differing properties to the breast milk supplied for a male child is that true there is wonderful research being done by professor katie hind on on breast milk and the qualities in it we do know what you know we know what's in it um again i'm a cultural historian yeah not so not a medic um but we do know what's in it um but it is bespoke so it will it will change depending on the time of the day

um so the melatonin that you might have in breast milk in the evening to help with sleep. A chance to find it. Yeah. Doesn't always work. The different qualities that you might have between a boy and a girl, whether it's your first child, your second child, it's bespoke. Yeah. Yeah. So it does change.

But, you know, we know roughly the kind of the amazing things that are in it you know that it is a living substance can i do a very quick quick far round is it a myth that you lose weight if you breastfeed it helps you get your figure back i couldn't say for certain um but i'm very very interested in the way that it's sometimes sold to women in that way as if we would choose something purely on the basis that it might affect our... Good answer. Can a different species suckle a child?

Yes, they can and they have. Well, what kind of different species? Well, it's like the Romulus and Remus suckle-by-a-wolf thing which you write about. Yeah, so myth is full of babies that are suckled by animals. It kind of marks them out as being other and being different. But before infant formula, before sterilisation, what are the alternatives?

So, I mean, the main alternative would have been to have another woman feed your child. If that can't happen, and at certain points of history, there has been problems around that. For example, sort of in the months during a syphilis outbreak, there was concerns that wet nurses might infect babies. A few centuries later, there was concerns that syphilis-infected babies might infect wet nurses.

And so those babies were fed by goats. That was Joanna Wolfarth and her book, in case you'd like to buy a copy, both Jane and I would recommend it. It's Milk, An Intimate History of Breastfeeding. And I deny anybody will be able to ever get out of their mind the image of babies in order to protect themselves against syphilis, being fed by goats.

I wasn't expecting her to say that, actually, Jane. I thought she was going to say that it was a mythical thing, as in Romulus and Remus being... Because you know that very famous picture, and it's a carving originally, isn't it, of a wolf's teats and Romulus and Remus as babies. Can you not say teat just lying in the direction of the teats

why don't you like that I think it's a triggering word it partly reminds me of the days when I would obsess by the number of holes that the baby's you know when you're wandering around boots in a fog and you're thinking, should we go up to four holes? And how long did it take you to realise that you could simply get a safety pin and make four holes yourself? I don't think I ever realised that. There was so much that I just didn't understand or know.

Yeah, you're right. Why didn't I just do that? Yeah, but they've got you, haven't they? They've totally got you. It's a really trying time in your life, if you're right. Why didn't I just do that? But they've got you, haven't they? They've totally got you. It's a really trying time in your life, if you're honest. I mean, we did have an email. I've got it put in front of me here. If you look at it, it's from Janet. Hello, Janet.

Janet says, if you look at a group of children in a school playground, you cannot tell which child has or hasn't been breastfed. No woman should be judged for her choices regarding bottle or breast or both and that's true i mean there is a certain amount of propaganda suggesting that breastfed babies are well they don't have is it they don't have eczema they're unlikely to get asthma and they'll be incredibly brainy so in theory you should be able to spot the breastfed child because they'll be they'll be reading shakespeare in the corner of the playground whilst the other kids just play marbles, I imagine. But it's not true.

No, but it is true that whilst you're breastfeeding your baby, whatever immunity you have to serious disease, you do pass on to them. I'm not saying for one minute that breastfeeding isn't incredibly valuable. You know, you mentioned goats and we do sort of think, oh, goats. But then, of course, you know, we all, most of us, drink cow's milk. So what? And I know vegans, as regular listeners might know, cow's milk is for baby cows, isn't it? It's meant to be.

Yeah. And oat milk is not meant to be for baby oats. Well, no, we don't know that. Nobody's asking the baby oats. Well, somebody should. What about the little almonds? We visited the little almonds before, haven't we? Have we?

Yes. I can't remember who we were on with, but we did end up talking about whether or not it was very cruel to take the little almonds away from the big almonds. Oh, God. We have talked about some crap over the years, haven't we? But listen, it's all about keeping each other company. It is.

Can I just shoehorn my fantastic breast milk anecdote in here? Yes. So our childminder, Brenda, she deserves mention. She was absolutely fantastic. She looked after my kids. Oh, it's good, this story. I've heard it. Go on.

I was working back at the old place, and she phoned me one day because she also worked in a local fishmonger. She was training to be a fishmonger, actually. And she phoned up, she said, Fifi, I don't know if anyone else I can phone about this, but a woman's just come into the shop and she's asked me a question I can't answer.

I was like, calm down, Brenda, don't worry, tell me what it is. Well, hang on. Why did she think you'd know about fish? No, wait for it. Oh, sorry, I have heard, yeah go on. Yeah so the question that the woman had asked her was is it possible to poach sea bream in my own breast milk? Brenda didn't know the answer, neither did I. So I just said well I think you'll be fine, I mean if it's fine for kiddies

then it's fine for sea breams. Was it a dinner party or just a private occasion? I've got no idea, but I hope it was the right advice. I can't think for one moment it wouldn't be. Was that in East London? It was in East London. Yeah, that has got to be. Peak East London anecdote.

Peak. Is it Shoreditch? No. Not far off. Not far off. It's a little bit further east from that. Well, we'll take your recipes for poached sea bream in breast milk. But you're right. You can poach it in cow's milk. But also people are frying up their placentas, aren't they?

Yes. Yes. You probably did that every Wednesday on Woman's Hour, didn't you? Another recipe for the placenta. Gather round. As you may or may not remember, Fee, my placenta was taken away for research. I do remember. Yes, so just watch it.

I was going to cook it, but it was so interesting, like so much else about me, that it was taken away in a taxi. I tell you what, that is the thing that you should put on your dating app profile. You know, the one that asks you for three things about yourself. That would... If you were to say, my placenta's in a museum, I think you'd be inundated. It would be a talking point, wouldn't it?

It's been so long, I don't know whether it would be a talking point. OK, then, I'll go away to work on that. So thank you very much for all your correspondence Have you got time for one more? Oh, always Jane Yes, go on then Oh okay, well there's a tiny one up here Which is just Claire saying

Dear Fionnuala, I love your programme I loved you on radio Yeah, we don't do those Nope, but stop eating on air It's not fair to the listeners No, it's horrible Claire says it's off-putting, unnecessary, and I'm sure you both know this.

Apart from this, you're doing a wonderful job. Now, the problem is, Claire, we've got a special food slot now, haven't we, on a Thursday? Yeah. So what shall we do, Jane? Well, we take turns, and I think it was me being repulsive last week because I had one of those delicious Henry Bird phyllo tarts

with, what was it, coconut vegan feta, which was unexpectedly delicious. It was a pea puree on top. It really was lovely. And I'm afraid I probably did enjoy it quite noisily. So I'm sorry about that. But you're right. It's a little bit of a challenge. Okay. So yeah, we'll turn down the microphone on the one who's doing the crunch. Yeah. And hopefully you'll escape that. Now thursday's big guest is sally wainwright the creator of happy valley and so much else uh some brilliant telly she's been responsible for and she is talking to us on thursday and tomorrow we're talking actually today i think there were times we both felt that program was perhaps a little female centric so tomorrow fee we are talking to Richard Reeves,

who's written a book all about men and boys. And it's a book which asks some very good questions about where it's all gone wrong for men in terms of toxic masculinity and actually poorer grades and some pretty awful mental health statistics. And it offers up some suggestions on how things might get better that is tomorrow and you may have missed the radio show i can't imagine why but it ended with well we were so privileged to be able to speak to jim dale not the carry on jim dale but weather meteorologist jim dale who told us we were absolutely amazed't we? We had an exclusive that he had created the phrase, the beast from the east.

And he was on because, and I don't want to worry anybody unnecessarily, although a certain amount of broadcasting is all about spreading fear and despondency, is what we're here for. Snow is coming, we're told, sometimes towards the end of next week. And it's likely to be, what was the adjective you applied? Significant. And that, because you asked a very searching question, what did that mean? And Jim didn't disappoint.

He said it was going to be a good inch. Brace yourselves. He's also going to come up with a little name for the weather pattern and he's going to let us know first. I'm on the edge of my seat. Yeah, well, we're all on the edge of our seats. This time next week, we'll be slipping and sliding off them because we'll be buried under 10-foot snow drifts.

I cannot tell you, and I'm not alone in this, I know how little I want it to get colder before it gets warmer, Jane. I'm a bit fed up with winter now. Yeah. Yeah. He was right. Jim Doe was right, though. This last couple of weeks has been really boring.

It's just been boring. It's grey. It's about nine Celsius. It doesn't even rain. It's just dull. So I'd welcome something. A pitfall from the iffel, a biff from the woff. I don't care what it is, just bring it on weather.

Goodbye. You have been listening to Off Air with Jane Garvey and Fee Glover. Our Times Radio producer is Rosie Cutler and the podcast executive producer is Ben Mitchell. Now, you can listen to us on the free Times Radio app or you can download every episode from wherever you get your podcasts. And don't forget that if you like what you heard and thought, hey, I want to listen to this but live,

then you can, Monday Monday to Thursday 3 till 5 on Times Radio Embrace the live radio jeopardy Thank you for listening and hope you can join us off air very soon Goodbye