Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Trimmings are for life, not just for Christmas

Episode Date: January 11, 2024

Fi is gazing into the middle distance, while Jane reminisces over her long lost German homestay. Award-winning children's writers Nadia Shireen and Frank Cottrell-Boyce join Jane and Fi to talk about their new podcast 'The Island of Brilliant'.If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiAssistant Producer: Kate LeeTimes Radio Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

VoiceOver describes what's happening on your iPhone screen. VoiceOver on. Settings. So you can navigate it just by listening. Books. Contacts. Calendar. Double tap to open. Breakfast with Anna from 10 to 11. And get on with your day. Accessibility. There's more to iPhone. Excellent.

Are you good to go? I'm very good to go, yes. Looking at a picture of Michelle Moan. I just... I've never worn one of her. She's in the Times magazine this weekend, we should say. She's Baroness Bra. She's Baroness Bra. I'd never worn one of her bras. The Ult the Times Magazine this weekend, we should say. She's Baroness Bra. She's Baroness Bra. I'd never worn one of her bras, the Ultimo.

The Ultimo, no. What was special about them? So I think they were gel-filled. They were the first gel-filled bra, which meant that you just didn't have quite so much wirage going on. Oh, I see. But I remember the

Wonder Bra. Do you remember the very, very famous adverts for Wonder Bras? And they were so, it was such a weird thing, wasn't it? I mean, it properly, it was a proper craze. It was a proper thing that suddenly your bra was different. And they were so uncomfortable. I had a Wonder Bra. I don't think I had an Ultimo bra. And I think I wore it once and it was just like, I can't.

It was just, I couldn't wear it to work. Where did it hurt? So I think just because it was so wired, wasn't it? And it pushed your bosoms together. That was the idea. Yeah. So you just had this. So they could chat.

Huge cleavage. Well, I mean, they were locked in a warm and sweaty embrace. Oh, I see. They were warm and chatting. And it just wasn't a bra for women. It was a bra for men. But it was sold on being the ultimate bra for women. It's crazy days.

Yeah. But as we know, breasts are just for men. Very much so. Are we in France? No. Well, they do say that... Are we a bit ahead of France Well, they do say that some... Are we a bit ahead of France in terms of fiery feminist debate?

Feminism, I think so, Jane. It was a very fun... I don't often... I must be honest. I don't often read the leader in the newspapers, you know, the... Yeah, editorial. Yeah, but there was a very funny one on France today. Saying what?

Well, just basically saying, you know, the story of that poor lady who'd gone to France hoping it would be like Emily in Paris. And she'd bought a beret and she fully expected to be clasped to the collective bosom of the nation. So her video has gone viral on the TikTok. Yes. She wasn't happy, was she? She went to Lyon. Yes. And she didn't speak French. So her argument that nobody was talking...

They understand English, for God's sake. ...to her was because she wasn't speaking their language. No, it wasn't. Well, yeah. But I didn't realise that it was actually... It has a name. I mean, it's called the Paris Syndrome. Yeah, I had not realised that some Japanese people,

I think it was all women, had had to be treated in hospital for this syndrome. Which is basically disappointment at travel. Yeah, grave disappointment with the lack of interest and affection shown to you by the city of Paris or the people of France. Oh, my dear. Yeah, it is. I mean, I don't think of them as, I haven't been to Paris for a long time, but I love it because it's so fabulously foreign but quite close and it's an intoxic intoxicating place but apparently a bit dirty these days paris yes not that london isn't filthy i should say yeah we went there quite recently actually um i went there with a child and i'd never because i'd never really been gripped

with that, oh, I must go and spend some time in Paris, I must sit looking into the middle distance whilst, you know, perusing my inner Proust. I'd never had that kind of yearning anyway. So I found it just a, yeah, slightly, we were staying quite near the Champs-Élysées, which is just this massive, it's like a motorway

with lots of Zaras on either side. It didn't really, it didn't blow our minds with the Romance Fiddle at all. And in fact, we ended up having quite a laugh because we were trying to find the Romance Fiddle. We put ourselves into a hotel that claimed to have a view of the Eiffel Tower. But honest to God, I mean you you risk losing your life trying to get to that view out of the window on the terrace only if you were seven foot two would you have been able to see the pointy top of a very you know I did a very easy to spot landmark so all of it was just comically a bit a bit rubbish actually many many years ago I did go on I think what was

intended to be a romantic break. But you know how small the hotel rooms are in Paris? I mean, you really do get properly ripped off there. Maybe things have got slightly better now with Airbnb. It's probably not a politically correct thing to say, I don't know. But this was a tiny hotel room, which also, one of its other distinguishing features, was a bathroom and lavatory so tiny

that my then partner, who's relatively large, couldn't actually shut the door. It's not very romantic. It just plain wasn't romantic. I mean, I do... No, it wasn't. It just wasn't for you. No amount of baguettes could make up for that savage disappointment. The other funny thing about going to Paris is the amount of queuing done at the Eiffel Tower.

Because the Eiffel Tower is like a very, very good looking man at a party with terrible halitosis. What do you mean? Best viewed from afar. Okay, the closer you get. There's no point in going up the Eiffel Tower because actually what you want to see is the Eiffel Tower. What you see when you go up the Eiffel Tower is an enormous city landscape of not very much merit, because actually they don't have the... That's a bit harsh. Paris, not very much merit.

No, so Notre Dame Sacré-Cœur, lovely. But they don't have a city district of skyscrapers and all that kind of malarkey. So the view is quite... This is Paris syndrome. This is what we're experiencing even talking about it. I suppose we are. So I tell you what, we've absolutely stuffed any chance of being sponsored by the French Tourist Board. I think we have rather blown that, yeah.

Anyway, if anybody wants to speak up in favour of Paris and actually in favour of the Entente Cordiale and French hospitality. Yeah, and I bet we've got some listeners who live in France. Well, it's funny you say that, but I'm not sure... Well, Valérie Perrin was the author who couldn't be bothered coming on the podcast when offered the opportunity when we did our book on the book club. No, but that's because she didn't speak English

and we don't speak good enough French. I have an A-level in French. Do you speak good enough French. I have an A level in French. Do you speak good enough French? I would have muddled through. Okay. Well, we can go back and do it again. I would just have addressed her in a clear English voice. Quite loud.

Which I strongly suspect she would have understood. Okay. And don't worry because when we come back next week on the podcast, we'll be picking on Denmark. No. Look, I've already said i think paris is truly beautiful i really do it's not what you said more or less is what i said i was just thinking about that reminds me of when my german pen pal came to stay for the weekend not weekend fortnight it was

she was with us back in the early 80s my mom she just she honestly god love her she just shouted at her in english um do you like marmalade? I don't think they have it in Germany, Mum. Marmalade! Why do people do that? I think that is, it's something that the British have got absolutely nothing to be proud of. I think the way we travel abroad is pretty well understood. No, well, the way we treat foreign guests here is not always what it could be.

Anyway, right, we need to get on. We do. Let's crack on. Le crack, le on. This one comes from Jackie, who says, thank you for reading out my email as a follow-up. So I thought, was it Jackie who had seen Simon and Bond's Ordinary World? Yes, it is. I didn't, by the way, that's not what she described,

but it was what I'd inserted because it was a very rude word. Actually, there was an email on the show today that I hadn't read through properly before reading it out. No, and it was somebody talking about porn and then going on about fannying around. Honestly, I do feel for you. I fear for you. We made it through.

It was okay. Here we go. I didn't include the fact that I'd also met Simon Le Bon in a lift in Liberty when I was about 11 years old. So we've got this double whammy thing going on, haven't we, with Sting and now with Simon Le Bon. Some people just seem to be very meetable, notably Sting and Simon Le Bon. Do you think they're just permanently travelling around? I just think they're in circulation 24-7, somewhere in the world, yeah.

Jackie says, at the time, I was more of a police fan spooky sting link so i deliberately ignored him i then saw the error of my ways and went full-on gerani i've seen dd a number of times first of all right at the front at wembley for the seven and the ragged tiger tour in 1983 i threw every piece of jewelry and button badge I had on stage including one that hit Simon to be pointed it's not funny and said was that you I practically fainted on the spot I then decided to bookend my DD gig days with a right at the front of girls court in the early 2000s but I just can't stop I saw them at Hyde Park a couple of years ago and I've just bought tickets with posh tenting for latitude in July I'm hoping you'll be there again this I just can't stop. I saw them at Hyde Park a couple of years ago and I've just bought tickets with Posh Tenting

for Latitude in July. I'm hoping you'll be there again this year and I can be full fangirl for you too. Well, Jack, I'm going to duck. Yeah, of course. Not with her record. Must be joking. Latitude, yes, it wasn't good weather last year.

No, it was, do you remember how wet it was? It was very wet. It was so wet we got a full tent. Yep, it was very, very squidgy underfoot, wasn't it? Well, people were just seeking sanctuary in the tent

that we were performing in. We've been talking about feedback that there's nothing you can do about and it started because Beck emailed to say that

a former amour of hers had, what was it he said to her, that she was quite attractive but he wouldn't call her pretty. Yes, but you're not pretty. No, she's lovely. Or maybe on a good day

you can be pretty. Well, Kathleen says a former boyfriend once accused me of being too tall. I am 5'10 and thus embarrassing him 5'8.

You will not be surprised to hear the relationship didn't last. No, I'm not surprised. Then there's this from Iona, an American man. It is funnier in the accent.

Once said to me you're kind of I won't attempt the accent. I'll do it in a very English accent, you're kinder, funny looking, but in some lights, you're beautiful. Every now and then, I remember this, and it always makes me laugh so hard, I cry. I recently heard that his partner had run off with her personal trainer. It shouldn't have made me smile, but I am only human. run off with her personal trainer. It shouldn't have made me smile, but I am only human. But it's made me smile too.

Sorry to hear about Iona's ex and the terrible thing that happened to him when his partner buggered off with her personal trainer. Very sorry indeed. Very, very sorry. How awful. Beck says, dear Jane, yes, it was a man. Dear Fi, yes, he was a tosspot. You just read that out in every episode, perhaps.

Right, cooked breakfast. This one comes in from Naomi, who says, I had to pause listening to you both and write this. My husband loves to have the whole family sitting down for a cooked breakfast and our children, now 14 and 11, and our beloved cat. She has her own seat in the corner near the window to keep an eye on the birds outside. If one of us isn't there, she often will come over and sit in their seat.

Her sweet little head only just above the table and licks her lips at times in anticipation of someone's meaty scraps a bit. We do also have a line, though, that no food is to be given to her on the table, only the floor. And with that, she has to sit on command. I don't think you get a cat to sit on command. That's amazing. We don't always get to have dinner together because of so many clubs, work life, etc. But breakfast gives us that important touchstone

for the day, all the family unit getting together before we all get busy. So some people are doing it. Well, I'm delighted to hear that. Honestly, I am. Because you do sometimes wonder what's happened to, I'm sounding rather sort of

somebody from the 1970s, but you do wonder what's happened to the family meal. And also the dining room doesn't exist anymore, does it? No, we're all just gathered around the island. Yeah, that's right.

We're sitting around your silly island on High Stools Island. I mean, where did that come from? For God's sake. We're very high stools. Island. I mean, where did that come from? For God's sake. We're very fond of ours. Sorry. Don't forget. Well, it's just the word island.

What's wrong with the word island? Well, just call it... What would you call it? It's not a table. It's a... It's an island. It's like a hub. A hub.

Okay. We're all sitting around our kitchen hub. Yeah, not quite the same, is it? Next week, we are going to talk, as we've said. Are you sure you're not my mother? Well, I've checked. And I rang your mother and just made sure of all the information. Do you know what?

If you'd rung my mother, my mother would have rung me. Would she? Oh, yes. She certainly would. To complain. Yes. Next week, we are talking about porn. And this is my serious voice there.

You'll notice the change. Focus on porn is what we're calling the week. There was a little bit of heartache about what to call it. And that's what we're calling it now. Is that right? I think it is. And, I mean, if you're, you know, slightly kind of smirking away at that, so were we.

But that's what we're doing. We're sticking with it. It'll be fine. Yeah. And we've got some interviews which have already been done. Now, you've talked to the Children's Commissioner, haven't you? A lady called Dame Rachel D'Souza. And she's fantastic. Yeah, I'm sure she's very interested because this week these god awful figures came out about child abuse and how, This week, these god-awful figures came out about child abuse and how, is it almost half of the people accused of child abuse in the UK are now under 18? Yes, so it's acts being perpetrated by children on children. Right, and we should make it clear that some of those acts are consensual and involve the sharing of explicit images. So you could argue about whether you wouldn't necessarily want,

and I think the police official who was questioned on this made it very clear that he wouldn't want to criminalise people, young people, for doing that. No, but it's why we're doing the series of features, isn't it? Because it's a topic that seems to have taken an awful lot of people by surprise with the amount of harm that's being done, just the enormity of the problems being caused against a background of an industry that's thriving

because people are enjoying it so much. Yeah, and there's no doubt about it, some parts of this are deeply uncomfortable and worse than that. So also on Monday we're going to talk to Dr Fiona Vera-Gray who is a leading researcher on the link between porn and violence than that. So also on Monday, we're going to talk to Dr Fiona Vera-Gray, who is a leading researcher on the link between porn and violence against women. And then later in the week, there's an interview with Sean Russell, who will tell us about his experience with porn addiction.

And you'll hear, too, from Erica Lust, who has made up porn herself ethically and with a feminist slant. And then on Thursday, we'll talk to Lucy Whitehouse, who is the founder and CEO of a sex education organisation called Fumble. So that's next week. But I just want to say thanks for all the emails we've had so far. And you can keep them coming to janeandfee at times.radio. Your own experiences, your own thoughts.

And if you're horrified or if you're a fully paid up porn enthusiast, then we're more than happy to consider every single point of view. We just want to hear from almost anyone who's got any, I was going to say skin in the game, but instantly, of course, you regret that. Nearly every phrase that you head towards might have some kind of a... Du blanc tendre.

But we're not laughing about any of this because, God knows, it really can impact on lives. So it's janeandf Fi at Times.Radio. Morning from Perth, Australia. This comes from a very hot Sasha. Menopause in an Australian summer is tough going. I bet it is. Jane's comment about Fi's slogan, women end up with a partner they think they're worth.

That came from a listener. I can't claim that as my own at all. Should be on a badge. It made me think of a wall in a hotel I stayed at in Washington, D.C. Last August, I went on an incredible trip to New York City, Niagara Falls and Washington with my bestie, Tina, who instantly introduced me to your podcast in the other place just after you'd started it. Well done, Tina. What a bestie. Early adopter. And her two teenage daughters to celebrate big birthdays we both had what a

lovely trip um tina booked a hotel in washington due to the fact that it promoted art by women three of the walls in the lobby and dining room were covered in badges with the best slogans on such as a woman's places wherever the hell she wants it to be and on one wall a huge portrait of ruth bader ginsburg made from tampons. Photos attached. The art sent such a powerful message to the teenagers. And RBG has been kind of deified, hasn't she? Rightly so. But in so many wonderful ways.

We have a colouring book of images of her. Yes. You can just, you know, you do the dot to dot colouring in stuff. And here she is in tampons. It's a very, very good picture, actually. And I wonder why her, more than other feminist icons, have been so wonderfully depicted

in quite kind of humorous ways, actually. What is it about her? Can I ask a question? I hope it's not tasteless. Yeah. Just unused tampons. They've just used packeted tampons, yeah, and just arranged them.

Okay. I mean, you could make some very powerful feminist art with used tampons, couldn't you, if you wanted to? You could. Well, maybe that's something that we can use to venerate you when the time comes, very, very long way in the future. I'm not there yet, Fee, but what a lovely thought. I shall be hovering on my cloud in the afterlife.

Actually, that's not a very nice thought, I've decided, and I'm going to move on. But let's briefly reference American politics, as we were talking there about a pivotal American figure. Because do you remember that on our show today we had that Republican strategist, Brian Lanza? We did. And he's terribly well connected. And he came out with, he sounded as though, he sounded as though he was very much in the know about who Donald Trump was going to consider

picking as his vice presidential running mate. And they were two names that I confess didn't mean a great deal to me because I keep, I've been banging on about Nikki Haley as possibly being somebody to watch, not according to him, because he said the two names in the running, as far as Trump is thinking is concerned, are Tim Scott and Kristi Noem. And I'm just putting it out there so people who didn't hear the Times radio programme, that these are people you might want to find out a bit about. Because if Donald Trump does win the election, and we have to start thinking about this as a serious possibility, he'll be very old too, won't he? He will, and his running mate will be a really, really key figure. And if you think about all of the vice presidents of recent years, they fill a role, don't they? Not always in a terribly good

way, Jane. So I'm just saying, passing on that tidbit from a man who, he didn't have, he wasn't exactly burdened with huge amounts of self-doubt, was he? So it was like he knew. Because I mean, you and I, I'm so burdened with self-doubt, sometimes I can't get through the day. I've often thought that's the difference between us, actually, that you're burdened with self-doubt. Sometimes I can't get through the day. I've often thought that's the difference between us, actually, that you're burdened with self-belief and I'm burdened with self-doubt, and that's why it works. I'll tell you why. I just want to pay tribute to you

because you are, by some margin, the fastest walker I have ever met. And we'll investigate this in more detail in next week's podcast. But we're serious journalists, and we must move on to the subject of trimmings. This is from Anna. I mention trimmings because it always crops up at christmas and that word just drives me insane after a rubbish time at uni says anna some of my happiest years were living with my two best friends from school when we all moved to london bringing our scouse accents

with us if we cook mexican food on a weeknight it would simply be fajitas, but at the weekend we might include various sides, loaded nachos, guacamole, refried beans, etc. And we call this Mexican with all the trimmings. People should not be restricted to using that word at Christmas or even within a culinary setting. A bath, for example, with all the trimmings is a lovely way to relax at the end of the week. Good thinking, Anna. I like that. Let's welcome that word trimmings into our everyday life and not keep it just for Christmas. Like a dog. When you're reading out the Mexican feast, I'd like to order that right now. Yeah, I wouldn't mind actually. It's got all the good bits in it, hasn't it? I don't, well, you say that. I'm never sure about that right now. Yeah, I wouldn't mind, actually. It's got all the good bits in it, hasn't it?

Well, you say that. I'm never sure about refried beans. Because you can get tins of refried beans. What does it mean? I don't think it's complex, is it? What, they've refried beans twice and then stuck them in a tin? I think so. It doesn't sound very hygiene. Well, I think you just add some spices and chillies and stuff, don't you? And you re-fry and then you fry them.

In the original fry, you add all the spices and the stuff and then you re-fry them. So if you're really bone idle, you can buy a tin of re-fried beans. And put it in the microwave. It does the same thing, doesn't it? Right, OK. I'm sure it's a big hit down Mexico way. Yes, Jane, I think that is what's happened. VoiceOver describes what's happening on your iPhone screen. VoiceOver on. Settings.

So you can navigate it just by listening. Books. Contacts. Calendar. Double tap to open. Breakfast with Anna from 10 to 11. And get on with your day. Accessibility. There's more to open. Breakfast with Anna from 10 to 11. And get on with your day. Accessibility. There's more to iPhone.

Right, shall we go into our big guests? Well, we've talked today about children's books, and I'm hoping that the following interview will inspire some emails on the subject of children's books that you are reading now, or your children or grandchildren are reading now. Books that you think will stand the test of time and will be, I don't know, treasured for many decades to come.

Because everyone's agreed that everyone, every child needs to read and they need to be encouraged to read. But it can be very difficult for adults to point them in the right direction and away from the classic celebrity authors who do tend to dominate the field at the moment. So I talked today to Nadia Shireen, author of the wonderful book Barbara Throws a Wobbler and the Grimwood series, and to Frank Cottrell Boyce, the man who has won the Carnegie Medal for his writing. He dominated an edition of Celebrity University Challenge. You might well recall it with fondness.

He represented Keeble College, Oxford, and answered almost every question himself. None of the other teammates got a word in. It also ended ignominiously for Keeble's opponents, Reading University. So a lot of people who love Celebrity University Challenge will be able to understand what I'm getting at here. He also, Frank, wrote the London Olympics opening ceremony. So the podcast they've made together about children's books is called The Island of Brilliant. Nadia told me more about it. I mean, I wish that I could say that we clearly thought this out. It was like most things that I do.

And I think Frank does. We just said, yep, that's a good idea. Let's do it. And we do it first and think later. But it was kind of a response to the fact that we just don't hear much conversation about children's books. That's fun and interesting and not tied to some depressing news angle about some controversy about a dead author you know edits that have been made to their books we're just like could we just maybe make a

nice pleasant informative hopefully funny and entertaining space yes it's a space it's a concept i mean you're on this island you and right i'm stuck on a desert island with Frank Hockfield's voice. She never stops complaining. Let me tell you, that is a nightmare. I'm not even going to ask. Actually, interestingly, Nadia, you have said that as a child, you didn't read too many children's books. Now, is that right? It is right. I was a voracious reader. I was always a reader. I was brought up in a house of books. However, they were not children's books necessarily. So we didn't have, you know, I didn't have bookshelves full of all the classics. You know, we didn't have the classics, but I had some

hand-me-down Ina Blytons and some Roald Dahls. But beyond that, the house was full of Agatha Christie's and P.G. Woodhouse. And, you know, I would read at school, but I didn't have an understanding of the great canon of children's literature. Now that's partly because my parents were immigrants in the late seventies and they are readers. They were readers, but they didn't necessarily have that same, I would say it's a particularly British kind of cultural thing that certainly many of my contemporaries or people my age age whose parents were born in this country they're like oh yes we love that but we know that but my mum used to read that book to me I didn't necessarily have that what did you read Frank I read everything I'm the opposite of Nadia

that she doesn't need to read anything because I've read it all already and I just fill her in when I was little we lived in a flat on Stanley Road in Kirkdale and we live with my gran it was a two-bedroom flat and my gran had one bedroom the four of us had the other so my mum spent every waking minute in the library across the road because it was like a warm welcoming space which was not did not have my gran glowering at her in it so I think that was the pull you know it was like somewhere to be peaceful so I just read everything in there and I think it was just a lovely place to be. You know, it wasn't so much the books, it was the fact that A, it was nearby, which is important, and that it was just lovely. It was a lovely sort of peaceful, safe space. But the books that I remember from my early, early years were the

Ina Blyton Ship of Adventure, stories like that. Now I grew up not very far away from you. Certainly, I wasn't underprivileged in any way, but there was no boarding school or sailing holidays or chalets in Switzerland or anything like that. But I didn't care. I mean, does that matter to kids, that sort of thing? I mean, we're supposed to think it does, but obviously, Harry Potter kind of refitted all those boarding school fantasies and people embraced it. I think, obviously, it depends on the kid. I can remember being annoyed by some of those enid blighton books just because they had so much freedom it's like they'd say to them it wasn't the privilege it wasn't the money it was they're like turning around to your mom and dad going we're thinking of going off in a caravan for a few weeks is that all right and the mom going oh i know take some boiled eggs i know

i was so jealous i was so jealous. I was so jealous. So we used to read them. The Freedom to Reign. And I read them kind of wide-eyed in wonder, like, listen to this. They get to do all this stuff. And their aunt and uncle don't care what they're up to. It's amazing. And then as I got older and those same books were lying around,

me and my brother used to, this is going to sound terrible and I'm sorry, but we used to deface them and add jokes in and kind of and then we'd really laugh we'd really laugh sometimes at some of the board install books because they talk about clarissa the wild gypsy girl and we'd be giggling because we'd be like oh right so she's she's literally brown and we just thought this was hilarious so we didn't i wish i could say that as a young child i was kind of righteously angry about it i was amused by how sort of weird the world was i listened to an episode of the island of brilliant today and it was the one in which you invite the the writer jt williams who is a new name to me writes historical fiction and she has these two characters who basically just dart around having

the kind of amazing adventures the famous five did back in the day but it's a long time ago the adventures are set quite some time ago so tell me about those books frank i mean they're astonishing aren't they so so and she fits in very much with what we've found about the podcast there's so much depth to her you know these are children's books but she has so much historical knowledge these books are set in 18th century london they're basically Cagney and Lacey. They're kind of two young women detectives going around foiling things. But they're based on real 18th century literary figures. Two young women of colour in London.

So it's Lizzie and Belle. One is the daughter of Ignacio Sanchez, who was kind of big. He'd been a slave, but he'd ended up in London and become kind of a figure in London literary life. He's a publisher. He had this beautiful correspondent with the author of Tristram Shandy and that Dido is this sort of, the other one is this young aristocrat. And they're sort of great detective stories. They're a great window into a kind of lost world of 18th century multicultural London. They're full of energy. And she had done so much work, which she carried so lightly. We started focusing on books and kind of informing people about what the choice was there.

But these have been amazing interviews about people's creativity. So for Joanne, for JT, it was like her historical research, but we also talked to Ed Veer, who's a picture book artist, and he talked about his influences. And we had an amazing interview with John Classen, who's a picture book artist, and he talked about his influences. We had an amazing interview with John Classen, who wrote, This Is Not My Hat, and I Want My Hat Back. And they were like Paris Review interviews, full of wisdom and full of insight and full of fun. What you're both illustrating is that patronised children are at your peril, because they deserve the same amount of detail, the same amount of research. I mean, you're nodding, Nadia.

They must be treated with respect as readers. Absolutely. I'm an author and illustrator of children's books as well. And one of the great unexpected pleasures of my job is that I go to schools and I chat with kids and I talk to them about my job. And we do, you know, story sessions. They are not to be trifled with. They are really that their sense of humor is sophisticated they want to know more why did you write that story what are your influences I'm always taken aback by how intelligent the questions are and I think they can see you know we talk a lot about modeling for children you know as parents of model behavior for children so if they see adults talking about

children's books with interest and respect and passion, it follows that they may decide to look at their books in that way. Yeah. I mean, I hope. Can we just have a brief chat about the cult of the celebrity author? There are, we don't need to name names. Everybody knows the names, unfortunately. When will these people stop? Everybody knows the names, unfortunately.

When will these people stop? It's almost become like people who have, I mean, it's a tricky one because there are some writers who write for other mediums like telly and whatever, and they write, they've just chosen to write a children's book. And I can understand that. And I don't want to be pointing fingers and telling people, you can't write things. But I suppose it's dispiriting that so much coverage is given to a certain type of celebrity and they will be on a tv show plug in their latest thing

that could be a perfume or it could be a children's book when children's books have become kind of you know they're a commodity that you just they're part of the celebrity portfolio I find that depressing but you, you can't necessarily blame the individual, it's the machinery around it. Why are they the ones on the radio, on telly? Why do they get the shelf space? You know, we just need more breadth. And hopefully, the Island of Brilliant is a way, a very small way of just saying, that's great. But look, there are also these other authors out there. So just one final quick question, Frank. Are parents meant to listen to this with their

children? Or is it for parents to then go away and encourage their children to pick up a certain book? To me, it feels quite, it's very lighthearted. It wears itself lightly. Guests are supposed to arrive in funny ways and they bring treats and it's all good fun. But they're quite substantial, these interviews. You know, I think so anybody who's interested in creativity would love to listen to the John Classen one, for instance. You know, so anybody who's interested in literature at all should listen to it. But I think the original purpose was to spread knowledge

of proper books by proper writers that are going to really abide. You know, you've talked about breadth, but depth is important as well. You know, that these are substantial books that if you read them the books that i read when i was 10 11 12 have stayed with me for the rest of my life and that's because somebody really gave themselves to the writing of those books and that they were they were really giving all of themselves to me in that and that generosity and that commitment is there and if you listen to these interviews you'll see that it's also maybe worth mentioning you know to any teachers or parents out there or people who uh give books or two kids are interested to understand who's out there we also have recommendations from emily of course emily drabble who works at the charity book trust

and every episode she gives us a list of the five great recent books that she's read and they go from picture books um to young adult books and everything in between and she's independent she gets sent these books by every publisher in the country so she provides a great overview frank and i maybe can't keep on top of it all but she does her chart rundown yeah can i just have a rock solid recommendation of a children's book from you both that people might not have heard about oh that's a tricky one i'm gonna go for the skull by john classen uh we did interview john on our sorry frank if i took that one from you uh it's such a strange book it's heavily illustrated it's extremely creepy it's based on the tyrolean folk tale about a girl who finds an abandoned skull

and it's spooky and yet very funny it's a beautiful thing yeah it's a really amazing piece of work it's very short but it's really got some clout to it without sounding creepy i am going to recommend grimwood by nadia shireen i know that's wrong but they're so good they're so funny and they're like kind of if you can imagine like a punk rock wind in the willows that's what, but they're so good. They're so funny. And they're like kind of, if you can imagine like a punk rock, Wind in the Willows, that's what you've got there. And it's about urban wildlife that is in the countryside and doesn't feel comfortable with it. So good. Oh, that sounds good.

Punk rock, Wind in the Willows. I'll go for that. I did not pay Frank to say that. Well, I'm afraid there's very little evidence of that, Nadia. It suggests to me that payola is going on. Frank Cottrell-Boyce, bigging up his mate Nadia's brilliant children's books, Grimwood.

And I very much hope you take inspiration from that conversation. And it sets you thinking about good books for our youngsters. Would you ever write a children's book? No, because I'm one of those people. Well, as you say that, of course, you think, first of all, you can earn loads of money

and they're not very long. So how hard can it be? And then you realise you can't do it. Otherwise, you would, first of all, you can earn loads of money and they're not very long. So how hard can it be? And then you realise you can't do it, otherwise you would have done. Yeah, but I think an awful lot of people, they don't stop that thought, do they? They don't come to that conclusion. No. As you talk about in that interview.

Well, Nadia's belief that, yeah, it's just become another thing that celebs do. Yeah, so you go on a reality show and you get a podcast yeah and you write a children's book or a young adult book if you're particularly thrusting and that is all part of the celebrity kind of pyramid isn't it and it's not fair on people who are hugely gifted writers for children and i think also what's not great about it, I mean aside from that point that you take away from truly gifted writers, is that the tone of them does all really seem to be a bit pulpy in the same because it's that, you know,

good triumphs over evil and you know a child finds himself in a position of adversity and then along comes an adult who disappoints them, along comes a young person who doesn't, and if you're very good, everything will work out in the end. I'm just writing all that down so it can help me with my book. But it's just so, it's actually not really, it isn't how life works. Well, I'm afraid often in life, bad people do really well. Yes. It's a terrible

lesson, isn't it? Yeah. But we've all got to learn it. But there's nothing of the there's nothing very true, is there, being imparted by somebody whose life has had that celebrity trajectory. There is none of that in those

books. They are then concocting an old-fashioned story of you know work really hard and somebody will see your true light and it'll all be okay in the end but that's not what they've done i mean they might as well just write a book saying plump your lips up bitch about your friends on television and on the insta get And get a good agent. And get here. To where I am. With your sharp elbows. Bullshit planet. So that. Exactly that.

Right. Okay. Oh, that's a fiery end to what has been a very enjoyable week here on Off Air. Thank you. Here on Off Air,

I speak as though it's a place. It kind of is. I think it's a planet. It's, yes, it's got its own atmosphere, that's for sure. OK, Jane and Fi at Times.Radio have a decent couple of days and we'll be back on Monday. And yes, we do want to know more about what you think about porn.

Or actually, you might be. There must be people who've never seen it, never read anything erotic, never had the faintest desire to explore this world. They must exist, those people. They really must. Along with people who, frankly, can't leave it alone but wish they could. I mean, it's a spectrum. There's no doubt about that. And don't forget, on Monday we're picking on Denmark. Well, other countries...

No Denmark. We'll give them a going over. If you're living there at. Well, other countries. No Denmark. We'll give them a going over. If you're living there at the moment, brace yourselves. I don't like that bacon. Oh no, I knew there'd be something. I knew there'd be something. We're bringing the shutters down on another episode of the internationally acclaimed podcast Off Air

with Jane Garvey and Fee Glover. Our Times Radio producer is Rosie Cutler and the podcast executive producer is Henry Tribe. But don't forget that you can get another two hours of us every Monday to Thursday afternoon here on Times Radio. We start at 3pm and you can listen for free on your smart speaker. Just shout Play Times Radio at it. You can also get us on DAB Radio in the car or on the Times Radio app whilst you're out and about being extremely busy. And you can follow all our tosh behind the mic and elsewhere on our Instagram account. Just go onto Insta and

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