Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Trouble in Winchester (with Alex Crawford)

Episode Date: April 30, 2025

Fi's been to Badminton and had some realisations. Jane and Fi ponder those realisations, as well as mini Magnums, Padel, Crosby, and train carriages. Plus, Sky News Special Correspondent Alex Crawford discusses her documentary 10 Years of Darkness: ISIS and the Yazidis. Please be aware that this interview contains sensitive content. If you fancy sending us a postcard, the address is:Jane and FiTimes Radio, News UK1 London Bridge StreetLondonSE1 9GFSend your suggestions for the next book club pick!If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiPodcast Producer: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Yes, and it's meant to be our life's work to try and, you know, coax, coax emotion. Come on, say something. I mean, the truth is, I'm more likely to fancy chatty man Alan Carr. Well, you've got some hurdles there. Carry on. Oh, I'm on. Okay, thanks. It's got to that stage hasn't it Jane, where Eve has to tell us when we're working. You're on now loves, you're on. Talk! I hope you had a lovely day yesterday with

Minxie Malks. Yeah, it was lovely. She was down in Brighton though, she wasn't here. Yeah, I did listen to the podcast on the way back on the train. You're very loyal. Did you hear the seagulls? I heard the seagulls. I was worried about the ice creams at the beginning. Yeah, yes. I mean, she got an early mention of sticking something up your fundament, but that's more

caring for you. Well, it is, but I just need my magnums to stay sacred. Okay. Do you just remind me I've got some in the freezer? Have you? Do you still just do the minis or are you always just a magnum magnum? I've gone full size but I've said it before I'll say it again I wish there was something between the two.

Oh don't be dark. No I do, I do. To find the big ones, just a little bit too big for me, I'm only tiny and I've got the appetite of a bird. And the small ones are too small? The small ones aren't enough, they don't satisfy. I just need to say that my seat is very low down so I'm sort of looking up at the microphone and just hoping you can hear me. We really can, Jane. Now, you were doing charity work yesterday, so it was a lovely day to do it and it was

an outside event. It was amazing. So it was a lunch for Horatio's Garden, which is a charity that puts gardens near spinal injury units in hospitals and if you think about how long people have to spend in spinal injury units Jane and quite often you know there are tiny incremental gains being made during that stay and being inside all of the time must be just so exacerbating of your sense of loss of mobility, let's just put it that way. So they build these really beautiful

gardens where the patients can go and spend a bit of time, meet their friends there, you know, sit outside, maybe have a barbecue, do something different within their day. So I'm a big big fan of the charity and yesterday was the tulip lunch which was at the Badminton Estate. Have you been to the badminton estate before? Only when competing. So I'd never been to the badminton estate before. Well it's quite a long way. That's what it is.

It depends where you're starting from of course. It certainly does. Yes, and I should make that clear. It's quite a long way from East London. It is down the M40 all the way at the end, just by Chippenham. Goodness me. I took the train, though, because I don't like to drive long distances. No, wise. No, I mean, I'm getting to the stage where I think twice about driving in the dark.

Yeah, no, definitely. But I'm not laughing, by the way. I mean, this is... I can't drive in the dark anymore because the blimmin LED lights. But anyway, can I just say a huge thank you to everybody who was there yesterday. And there was a wonderful tour around the gardens to see all of the tulips. I mean, you know, the estate's absolutely unbelievable. Can't be a better time to see it though. It's unbelievable. Yeah. It was so beautiful. But there were lots of really, really kind, lovely, interesting people there

and if you've got time to just look up the charity and want to give it a little bit of your support, I think it is a very good thing. Lots of listeners to this podcast, so I say cheerio to... What, they've left? I say cheerio... What should I say? Hello? Hello? I say hello to all of those listeners. You're right there. What's the posh version of a shout out? A shout out? A shite-ite? I don't know. Well anyway, you've done it. Yeah. And it was a beautiful day and I didn't realise, I know this is such a thick thing to say, I didn't realise that Badminton and Badminton would have anything to do with each other. But Badminton is where Badminton was invented.

Is it the proud home of the shuttlecock? It is Jane, and the very high net. I'm sorry, I hate to say, particularly to someone who had such a glorious day in a wonderful setting, I think that's a very silly game, badminton. Just, I'm sorry. I know there are lots of badminton lovers out there, but please, and if you are out there, make the case. Make the case for the game. Well, I think a lot, I think we might get inundated with badminton lovers.

Well, because you can do it inside. Tennis is not... You can do tennis inside? It is not a sport that suits this country's climate. No. And I know a lot of people, when a tennis court might seem a little bit challenging, find that badminton is amazing. So I don't want to diss the badminton fraternity.

Oh, get on. I tell you, a fraternity I am happy to diss. But I was going to ask you actually, Jane, if there was a sport that could be named after your house, what would it be? It's a fun game, kids. I'm afraid I can't play that. You've given me the opportunity to get something off my heaving bosom. Paddle. Do you know anyone who's taken to paddle? To paddle? I don't, so I only know paddle because of the ructions in Winchester. Oh, have there been trouble? Have there been trouble?

Sounds like some local yokel who's just been told about World War Two. Have there been trouble? Right, I just want to know a couple of women of my age, good friends of mine, who've both started banging on about paddle. Good. Anyway, tell me what you were going to tell me. Trouble at Winchester. Yes. Anyway, just absolutely make my life of a podcast as title Trouble at Winchester. I think there's been a high-dudgeon with the people

who live next door to a tennis club that put in paddle courts because paddle is really, really loud, much louder than tennis. People banging on about it are loud, I know that much. I think the size of the court means the acoustics are just an awful lot louder because there's a wall isn't there? There's a Perspex wall involved in paddle, I don't really know either. I'm at the very very boundaries of my paddle knowledge here and a lot of people seem to say that the hitting of the ball can sound a little bit like gunshots. So you've got lots of courts of people playing paddle then it can be incredibly loud. Right. Well there's two communities we've had a go at. So Bambington lovers and

newly passionate paddle fans, you know what you can do. It's Jane and Fee at Times.radio. I understand that paddle is appealing to people who are or were really good at tennis and perhaps weren't bad at ping pong and it's somewhere in the middle and is the back bigger and it's easier to make contact and I think it's underarm serving as well. Well there you go, so launch yourself into it, don't be resistant. Were your friends inviting you to join them on the paddle course? No, it's funny, my friends never invite me to do anything. Okay.

Let's just bring in Mark who says, Jane and Fee, I enjoy your podcast, I've listened to every episode. Well done, Mark. I don't know what you've done to deserve that, Mark. You regularly state, Jane, just on the 28th of April, Fee, a couple of weeks ago, that you don't believe in God and don't have a faith. So when you both say things like thoughts and prayers in response to a listener letter or email, who are you praying to? Thank you. Good point, Mark.

It's a very good point, but I do think there's something. That's my backup. I think there's something, but I'm just not quite sure what. Open to ideas. Now, men are from Mars, women are from Venus, in brackets. Not, in comes Hazel from Wulton in Liverpool. What's Wulton like? Well, it's in South Liverpool and it's really rather posh. Is it? Is it posher than Crosby? Oh, I would say they were on a par. I think they'd be a posh-off.

So is Crosby very posh? And I don't want to get you into trouble here, but are you actually masquerading as... Look, there's Great Crosby and there's Little Crosby. And Little Crosby is a teeny tiny village built around a stately home. I mean, the whole thing is slightly odd. What do they play there? Well, they play Catholicism because my understanding was until very recently

you couldn't have a property there unless you were a Catholic. It's one of those, um, what? I know, I know. So say that again. In the village you can't have, you can't buy into the village unless you're a Catholic. I think it was something to do with the stately home, very much a Catholic family and a place with priest holes and all the rest of it. And yeah, they own the village, or they certainly did. It was quite feudal, and in order to live in the village, perhaps not to own, so I need to be careful, perhaps just to live in the village, you did have to be a member of the Catholic faith. Wow, do they know that the Reformation is over?

What? No news doesn't travel all that speedily to certain, let's be honest, rural villages the world over. Okay, so you've got Little Crosby and then Big Crosby. This isn't fair. No, it's interesting. Is it like the magnums where you'd much rather have lived in a medium Crosby? Yeah, I'd want to live in a medium Crosby.

Very definitely. So were you in Big Crosby? Yes. Well, I was actually born in Waterloo. Who's still awake listening to this? But go on with the email because it's important. Yes, well I was actually born in Waterloo. Who's still awake listening to this? But go on with the email because it's important. I love that you're not trying to shut down a conversation about Liverpool. Incoming Hazel.

I absolutely love your podcast. Your warm humour always makes you laugh. But I found myself yelling at my speaker in horror during your recent comments about John Grey's Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus. It is such a deeply problematic book. It's not only sexist and heteronormative, but it also reinforces outdated and binary gender stereotypes. Women are cast as needy and over-talkative, while men are portrayed as withdrawn and incapable of communication under stress. Darcy. It's the Darcy thing, isn't it? Yeah Yeah yes it is. I don't like the Darcy thing. It's that strong silent type we're meant to find really attractive. Yes and it's meant to be our life's work to try and you know, coax, coax emotion. Come on, say something. I mean the truth is I'm more

likely to fancy chatty man Alan Carr. Well you've got some hurdles there. Carry on. These tropes aren't just lazy they're genuinely harmful to both men and women. Grey's advice is also worryingly one-sided. Women are told in detail how to support their male partners through their emotional retreats, yet there's very little offered in terms of how men might support women. The entire book is anecdotal and unsupported by academic research. In fact, quite a bit of research directly contradicts Grey's claims. Studies show that men often speak more than women and tend to dominate mixed-sex conversations as

many of us will have witnessed firsthand. Deborah Cameron's The Myth of Mars and Venus is a brilliant scholarly takedown of the pseudoscience behind books like Grey's. So thank you for that Hazel. I was really glad that you wrote in with that and it really made me think because when I read the book which would have been in my early 20s I don't think and well I mean obviously because the memory of it didn't stay with me as being that. So I would have swallowed all of that pseudo-science and put the book down and thought what a great book to read because I don't remember it rubbing me up the wrong way at all.

And you read it because you thought you could learn from it. Yes, because I remember it being quite a thing around at the time. You know, there was a lot of, oh my goodness, this book is telling us something really important that we should all know. And I remember finding it interesting. I don't remember finding it as, I mean to be honest, as offensive as I probably now would as a much older woman. So Hazel, huge thanks for writing in and actually you've got a very good PS as well, double stars on the email. You also mentioned Life on the Channel Islands during World War Two in the same podcast. I would recommend the

novel The Guernsey Literary and Potato Peel Pie Society. Oh it's good that, yeah. Have you read it? Yes. By Mary Ann Shaffer and Annie Barrows, which is about just that. It was also made into a film but not nearly as good as the book. So lovely stuff all around Hazel and thank you very much. And it is interesting that although neither of us are religious, I need to stop saying that really, we are interested in religion and we're interested in faith and we're interested in people who've got faith. And so this is an email from Sarah who says, I was listening on Monday with interest, especially when you talked about the Pope's funeral and the Catholic Church. I was born and raised a Catholic and I still practice and I approach my faith though with eyes wide open and a feminist streak. I know the Catholic Church is

misogynistic. I felt like I was drowning in a sea of men at the Pope's funeral. I am desperate for a way for women to become clergy. I know the church has its issues covering up abuse, hoarding money, holding outdated views on gender and sexuality. It makes me angry, frustrated and tired. But when I go to church on Sundays, I see people coming together, trying to do the right thing and live a Christian life. They do strive to be kind, compassionate, to speak out against injustice, to forgive freely and to serve others.

I managed to separate the church's trappings from my faith by focusing on its teachings about how to live. The Reverend Kate Botley once said you can only change the institution from the inside and that sums up my feelings about Catholicism. And you mentioned Cardinal Vincent Nicholls, I had no idea he hailed from the, yes we're going to mention it again, sacred land of Crosby. I did meet him when he was the Archbishop of Birmingham. I took a group of Catholic young people to the Cathedral and we ran into him in one of the chapels. He was lovely and introduced himself as Archbishop Vinny which I thought was so kind and informal. He was a great laugh.

Well of course he would be saying that. Of course he would be because we all know why. Anyway, she has called the email Pope Vinny and all I'll say is you just never know do you? But the funny thing is they all then get to choose another name don't they? Because they're not all called Paul John and Francis You can choose you can choose your name can't you? Yeah, well, do you know the name of England's only Pope so far? Vernon Adrian Everyone here even laughing in the background? Yeah, well Eve's in disgrace because she was outed on the podcast yesterday for being someone

who as a teenager went to spy on the nudists at Brighton Beach. Oh come on. So she's lying low. Everybody as a teenager wanted to spy on a nudist. In fairness that's exactly what I said, that I had access to a nudist. But now of course in Crosby you can go and look at Anthony Corley. Which occasionally I do question, is there a female artist alive who'd have had the brass neck to put up hundreds of naked images of herself on a beach? Possibly not hundreds but I mean it is quite a theme isn't it in artists work to start with the self and then work outwards. I mean Tracey Emin is, most of her early work is delving into Tracey Emin isn't it?

Well I can't speak with enormous authority there but I'll take your word for it. You said you've just been to the Badminton estate so you know what you're talking about. Right, this one comes in about Gerona and VE Day and I thought this was just an astonishing email on so many levels. Dear Jane and Fee, I had to write in when I heard that you'd been to Gerona Fee. It's a place that inadvertently changed my life. In 1962 when I was seven years old my mum went with a friend on one of the very early package holidays to Gerona, leaving me and my sister in the care of our grandma. Our father was working overseas and she didn't return because she was involved in a car crash whilst there. Her friend survived and married my father but that's another story. Oh goodness. It certainly is.

I've recently had my 70th birthday, though I feel I've had a lucky life as an adult. Mother loss in childhood is something that never leaves you. I've longed for my mum all my life. I remember her very well. She was completely full of joy, always laughing and singing and trying new experiences, hence the holiday. And one of the hardest things to cope with is the way that people just moved on so quickly after her death. I've always tried to honour her memory by reminding people that she existed,

and one of my very few possessions of hers is a two-day diary she wrote describing her celebrations on VE Day here in Portsmouth. I thought you might like to see it, seeing as we're about to celebrate the 80-year anniversary of it. She was 19 years old when she wrote it. Best wishes to you both. And that comes from Kerry Rose. And it really echoes what you've been saying that we need to hang on to in our heads when we look back on VE Day and celebrate VE Day. That of course it was a day that was so complicated when you were actually living through it. So just to read a tiny bit of it and thank you for sending it in because it really is remarkable. At last the day we'd awaited for so long had arrived

and as I always want to remember it I'm going to make an account of my activities on May the 8th and May the 9th 1945. Hostilities in Europe really ceased on May the 7th. Maureen and I were doing our bit down the YMCA when the dramatic announcement was made that VE Day would be tomorrow. I was surprised that the forces weren't very enthusiastic. Still, we had expected the end of the war for so long. The radio announcer informed us that May the 8th and 9th would be national holidays and also that Mr Churchill would tell the world at 3pm tomorrow the exact details of the defeat of Germany. When I awoke on VE Day I felt very unsettled. There was an air of excitement and I felt like doing the Highland Fling or some such thing, but instead

I watched from the living room windows shopkeepers decorating their windows with the allied flags. There were long queues everywhere for food as housewives had to get in a supply for two days. I couldn't keep still so I went on to the Rwanda where Mrs Martin and I played with baby Raymond. Ray was waving a Union Jack and acting in a very excited manner. People's high spirits even affected animals as it seemed all the dogs in Portsmouth were barking and running around in circles. It goes on and takes you fully through the day in this fantastic domestic detail but underneath all of it is that feeling that you just didn't quite understand what was happening around you and the change that

we can look back on and know was to come for many families much further down the line you wouldn't have been able to see that at all. So thank you for sending this and thank you so much for this email and obviously we never know who's listening and we talk about such a crazed variety of subjects and I'm just so sorry that your childhood was marred in that awful way and I'm so sorry sorry that your childhood was marred in that awful way and I'm so sorry you lost your mom when you were so young. It's just miserable and it sounds like you've done everything you can to honor her memory and how lovely that you've got those extracts. Yeah. What really happened on

VE Day. But I think, I mean to echo everything that Jane said there, also it must be just so so hurtful as a very young child when the world seems to have moved on and so you can't hear lots of stories about your mum and feel that she is still there with you because you can't go back and relive your childhood, we all know that, but in the moment as I think we know so much more about grief now, especially childhood grief, and all of the experts say, keep the person in... Talk about them. Yeah, keep the stories alive, keep their intent alive,

talk about what they would have thought of important moments and stuff. So, yeah, that would be such a long and cold shadow. So thank you for taking the time. Really appreciate that email. Some of you for taking the time. Really appreciate that email. Some of you really do spend ages and ages on your emails and we are incredibly grateful to you. We did get one from Australia, we can't read it out but we just want you to know that we've absolutely absorbed what you said and thank you for sending it. Much appreciated. Let's talk about the toilets

at Euston Station in fashionably North West Arden. I was just saying how pleasantly surprised I was when needing to use the facilities. Why have you gone into that voice? Because that's the voice you use. Is that the toilet voice? For facilities. Okay. This train is comprised of nine... Why do they say that? Why do they say comprised? Nobody else ever says it. I see I'm on a train comprised. Oh, how wonderful. Right. I only take trains comprised of four characters. Well, you're lucky to have four. This is from a woman who's actually, we don't need to name her, but she is actually in charge of upgrading the toilets at Euston station. You've made it.

And honestly, they are much better better so I thank you for it. I take a close interest. I couldn't believe it when you started talking about the toilets as I've just started a new role to manage the programme of changes to Euston that need to be made before the full redevelopment of the station further down the line. Whoa! Get it? Yeah. The toilet, I don't think it's intentional,

the toilets were a key part of this interim improvement programme and lots more is to come to improve the station for passengers. Well, I can't wait. Our correspondent goes on to say, I'm just confirming that Network Rail does indeed manage Euston and all major railway stations across the network, 20 in total. Thank you very much, Anonymous. And I look forward to continued satisfying use of those lavs. So the one thing that they have to really

sort out at Euston is the Euston rush, isn't it? Yes, yeah. Because it's just such a big haul so when the platforms announce there is an almighty surge. Yes, yeah. And I did, you know you can find out the platform on the apps now. I do that. You do that. I'm way ahead. You get ahead of yourself. I'm known as Techno Jane.

Yes, you're so not. Dating questions incoming from Beck. Further to your discussion on men not asking questions on dates, I'd like to add my two penneth. That will be a phrase our children don't understand, won't it? Well, they're trying to bring cash back, aren't they? No, they'll be saying I'd like to add my tap and pay. When I went speed dating, I found that some of the men were very keen to fire questions at me, interview style. I don't know if it was the pressure of the three minute meeting or the thought that you

had 21 people to meet so you needed to distinguish who they were. But I would say it was more often than not that this approach was taken. One man asked me if I found my leisure activities fulfilling, which I took at face value at the time, but looking back sounds like a euphemism. Well, I don't know, Frish, I'm trying to think well of the chap. It might not have been what they meant. The men weren't all bad. One man made me laugh for the full three minutes and we're now married.

Three minutes, that is good. I don't know how long we've been married because my maths is terrible but it was Christmas Eve 2007 so knock yourself out if you're happy to work it out. Oh I just haven't got the time. I remain impressed with your interviewing skills flying in the face of the director. Bec thank you for that I just love the fact that you do that obviously your marriage is so good you don't need to work out how long it's been and whether it's a steel anniversary or a copper or a bronze. Whatever it might be, congratulations to you. It does sound a long time. And actually on that subject, Anonymous says, I can't speak for all autistic men but I always ask questions on dates. I think I over prepare and I keep a mental track of the ratio of speaking between us I ask questions because it is the right thing to do. It's equal its equity

It is also the sensible thing to do finding out who they are Others especially those from elsewhere on the spectrum might take a different approach though says anonymous Well, thank you for that and thank you for your input and keep your thoughts coming on this subject I mean, yeah, no questions at all is clearly wrong but there has to be a happy medium I suppose doesn't there? And also, you've got to listen to what people are saying to you. Yeah. What?

Yeah. It should. You've got to listen. It's hard listening though, isn't it? And then you've got to properly think of another question rather than just reverting the conversation back to you, because that's very frustrating, isn't it? When somebody is literally waiting to tell you another anecdote about themselves when you've just introduced a topic about you. It is like playing swing ball when you want to play tennis.

Yeah, I think we've done enough on sport for this podcast. I'm with you on that. I feel exhausted. I may need a rub down. Jane and Fee, this comes in from Bev for my 12th birthday. In 1969, my Aunt Patty, white boots, long blonde hair, minis, skirt and car, offered to buy me a bikini. We went to CNA, where I insisted on trying on the bikini tops over my vest. It wasn't a good look. Now that took me back. I mean CNA isn't around anymore is it? No, Coats and Atts. That's what it's still called. Coats and Atts. Okay. Well it's sadly missed as are all big department stores. They just, they won't, I know Selfridges still exists, that's

not mentioned in the H1, I can't be asked, but they just aren't going to be built, are they? It's funny you mention, the last time I went in one, I think Selfridges is genuinely, the last time I went there I remember thinking what a beautiful place it was genuinely, but it's not somewhere I'd ever seek out, I mean their windows are just brilliant, and I often marvel at the window displays on Selfridges, in Selfridges window, but I don't go in. Do you not find yourself drawn to a John Lewis for safety on a Saturday? Oh, of course. That's a slightly different thing.

OK, you wouldn't call John Lewis the department store. I'd call it an experience. An institution. An institution, and one I'm very happy to enter. Unlike some of the other institutions I'm probably going to enter. Well, I tell you what, we're having a bit of a nightmare in the UK at the moment because there's some online cyber activity which has taken out Marks and Spencer's ability to deliver an order online and what was the other one that's gone down today?

Co-op. Co-op. It's actually very serious and these shops are going to lose loads of money and ultimately the customer is going to have to pay the price for that, I guess. And it's just, yeah, it's really sad. We know that the high street is up against it. And so if even their online offerings are being challenged, that's really miserable. Speaking of which, Justine says, I just wanted to say a big gracias from, oh, goodness me, do you know Spanish? From...

Murcia? Spanish? From... Murcia? What? Oh no, I can't do that, it's too complicated. Just wanted to say a big grapia from Mahaca, Majaca, in southern Spain. Give us Penelope Cruz, just because it's a sunny Wednesday. Penelope Cruz. She was rude when I met her actually.

So I don't feel the need to pronounce her name properly. I just wanted to say I'm going to get through this from Justine. She's in southern Spain where my recent musings about emergency kits suddenly felt very real. Yeah. Yesterday we had what I can only describe as a full on 1970s power cut. No lecky, no internet, no cash points, and eventually no mobile. Honestly, it felt like the universe was forcing a digital detox without consent. With just 40 euros in our pockets, we had to channel our inner Ray Mears

and decide what mattered most. Torches, water, food or candles. Spoiler, Ryoka didn't make the cut. We made some strategic purchases and kept a little bit of cash in reserve in case things went full apocalypse now. Dear. Salvation came in the form of the lovely staff at the hotel. My Jack-o-plier. We learnt to eat a hot meal and blessed them, exchanged our pounds to euros so we didn't go hungry. Proper heroes. It was a strange evening by candlelight back in our apartment. When the phone signal finally disappeared completely at nine o'clock, I looked at my dad and said, well, Jane did warn us. This is it. All's well today. All's

well today, but I'll... Oliver Down is currently seething. I warned you. He tried. He did. All's well today, but I'll never again roll my eyes at a drawer full of candles and batteries and when I get home to Blighty I'm going to be making my own UK prepper box. I mean the thing is that governments have been warning us about this for a very long time and it's completely on us to have not taken it seriously, isn't it? I wonder whether they've warned us often enough and in a plain speaking enough way. Well, when they've tried to people have laughed.

And that's the problem. When the Oliver Dowden stuff was circulating. Which was about a year ago, wasn't it? Which was entirely sensible. And also you've got to realise that he's saying that or amplifying that message because he's seen something we haven't. Yes, you'd imagine so, yeah. Then, you know, most of the newspapers just did a kind of rather silly... Teehee, I know. Yes, yeah. I wish it was Teehee, it's not. And so anyway, we can't say often enough you need a wind-up radio or one with batteries,

you need a torch. You need water and anything else that you think you're not going to be able to get through 48 hours without. So let's have a proper think about it. If you're a house full of women, you probably need some sanitary products that you don't want to find yourself lacking in those. If you've got pets, you need pet food. What are you going to give your animals? You know, you could probably go a bit hungry yourself, but

the animals are absolutely bonkers. You need some tinned food and you need some medium magnums. Yes, but I mean, if only they'd invent them, then we'd all be all right. So yes, that's put a rather a dark cloud over what had up until that point been a relatively cheery podcast. What do you think? No, I think we touched on some very non-cheery things. We're just trying to be sensible. Yes and I think our audience know that. Well let's thank you very much indeed it's lovely to have you back. It's very nice to be back Jane, it's very nice indeed. I tell you what there were many many moments yesterday where I did think I'd quite like to send you a picture. Right but I've seen some of your pictures before.

Oh, the tulips, absolutely amazing. Oh, the tulips, I see, you know, that would be lovely, yes. They're all blousy and lovely. That's why I've got back into peonies, I love a peony, and they're blooming out all over the place. Are they? Yes. Gosh, mine are still furled.

Oh, I have to buy mine, I can't. Oh, I've got a couple in the garden. I've just got some in a vase. And I've got a very delicate pink one at the moment. Just about to burst forth. Bring me great joy, peonies. We are joined now by Alex Crawford, Sky News special correspondent.

Is she going to tell us about her documentary? It's pretty, I've got to be honest, it's a bleak one, isn't it, Alex? Yeah, it's depressing. Yeah, it really is. It's all depression. Well, it's 10 Years of Darknessak one isn't it Alex? It's depressing, it's all depression. Well it's 10 years of darkness ISIS and the Yazidis it's going to be shown on sky this Friday at 9 o'clock that's right isn't it and it's about the

systematic slaughter of the Yazidi people in Sinjar in northern Iraq in 2014. Now women and children were also abducted by ISIS fighters and it's thought that over 2,000 of them are still being held in captivity. There's a lot to try to explain here. First of all, who are the Yazidi people? Yazidi people are a very small, ethnically different, diverse, tiny little group that have been the subject of number of genocides. I mean that in itself is remarkable, 74 different genocides before this current one.

And I think what's important to remember is that this one's still ongoing, because we're still finding Yazidi girls who were taken by ISIS more than 10 years after they were taken. So they've been enslaved for more than 10 years. They are quite inward-looking. They only want to marry within their group generally, within their community. They tend to be around Iraq and Syria, although now they're displaced. And this latest genocide, recognized by the UK government and a number of other governments, the EU as well,

is probably the closest that has come to erasing them. And they believe it's still ongoing. And they're worried because I know from my evidence that ISIS has not gone away, its ideology is there and they fear that, they still fear that they're targets and we know nearly 3,000, 2,600 women and children are still in captivity enslaved by ISIS. So they are neither Muslim nor Christian. Correct.

Is it too crass to say they're somewhere in the middle? Who do they worship? What do they worship? Well, first of all, I think in many ways that's irrelevant. But, and I wouldn't say I'm an expert in what they follow and what they believe in. They have taken parts or developed, they are familiarities between a number of different religions, but they are very particular on their own. And they are considered to be one of the oldest religions in the world, so they have been around for centuries. But because they have been persecuted, because they are different, because they are small, and we've seen this replicated around the world,

they are subjected to particular discrimination and persecution. And this one was very particular because the extremist militant group, the Islamic State, did not recognize them as religious, felt that they were sinners and that they, you know they they they respect for instance peacocks they felt that they didn't have a recognizable God

as they saw it and they were outside their extremist version of Sharia law and and Islam so therefore they were open to abuse they saw them as subhuman and they set about systematically attacking them, killing them, raping them, stopping them from just existing. And they didn't treat them like humans, like another human. Well, you've been quoted as saying that you regard it actually as your feminist duty, if you like, to bring more attention to their plight. That sounds really naughty. No, no, I don't think it is.

But thank you. But you know what, I think as a female it's very difficult and it's, you know, I'm sure you probably feel the same. It's very difficult to see another woman sitting opposite you talking about being gang raped and sometimes maybe only being a child, and not feel that you need to sort of at least magnify what's going on, at least spread it to the rest of the world, because this isn't even just a one-off. And I feel very empathetic towards another woman who was just on her own being raped. This was a whole community, a whole ethnic group that was being targeted. And did they welcome your interest? Are they happy to talk to you?

Very much so. They feel extremely ignored, overlooked. There's so much trauma going on in the world generally. And they have been. That's why I feel they felt they have been in the darkness. They have been completely forgotten. 80 different countries took part in the military action to crush the Islamic State. What's happened to

rebuilding and helping the Yazidi people who were the subject of that persecution? So tell us about conditions at this enormous refugee camp that features in the documentary. It's the Al-Hawl refugee camp isn't it in this case. Now it's in northern Syria so it's close to the Iraqi border. Who is there and who's protecting them and actually keeping them within the camp? They don't like this camp to be called a prison but it basically is an open-air prison and it sort of fulfills what you and I and many of your listeners would see as prison conditions. People aren't allowed in, people aren't allowed out.

They're surrounded by barbed wire and lots of perimeter fences and men and women with guns keeping them in there. And who were the men and women keeping them? They are all ISIS families or people who... Sorry, no, the men and the women guarding them. Oh, the men and the women guarding them are part of the Kurdish-led Syrian Democratic Forces, who was part of the coalition that tried to crush ISIS. Okay, we'll get on to talking more about Syria in a moment, but the people in the camp, they are?

They are the ISIS families, or those who were found in ISIS territory with ISIS fighters, people who were accused of being ISIS fighters or loyalists. So there is a large rump of them who are affiliated to ISIS and the extremist group. And they've been left in these conditions for many years, which would lead to, in ordinary conditions, quite a lot of radicalization. They're very primitive conditions, very rough conditions. It looked awful, actually. Yeah, it's pretty awful. And within that community, there are some women,, well they were girls when they were taken, they're now very young women who were in fact Yazidi women who were taken and abducted and have been used as, well, as sex slaves frankly.

Yeah, and the thing is when the coalition reclaimed the last bit of ISIS territory. They created what they called a humanitarian corridor. All these families came out from that last, all these ISIS families. And amongst them were hidden Yazidis. We suspected that at the time, but it was impossible to prove because there was this huge group of people coming out and they were all either segregated, men sent to prisons, women and the children sent to these camps. They were meant to be temporary. And there are more than 50 different nationalities amongst them.

We know that there are Britons there. But the countries who took part in that fight against ISIS don't want to take any of their citizens back. No, well, Shemeema Begum is not in that camp. She's in the smaller one close by, which tends to be where the foreigners are. But many of them are fighting to try and get back. And I spoke to many of them, Australians, Germans, French, you know, Barbadan, all sorts

of nationalities, they're all trying to get back to their homeland. Right. But all people who answered that call to join ISIS and to be a part of it, it is extraordinary, isn't it? I mean, they had an incredible marketing campaign, the Islamic State. Well you do feature some of their ads. It worked incredibly well because it drew a wide range of people from more than 200 countries. I think the important thing that the documentary does is it humanizes it,

personalizes it through a young woman called Covan. Now, tell people about her. Covan was 14 when she was captured along with the rest of her family. They were immediately split up. She never saw her parents again and still hasn't found them, believes them to be killed. One of her sisters is still in captivity. One of her brothers has disappeared, a younger brother. We tried to track him down. The boys are particularly vulnerable as well, the young boys, because they're brainwashed, they turned into child, they were turned into child soldiers and if they were lucky enough to

end up in the detention camps, and I use that word lucky very subjectively, is that they, as soon as they reach puberty, they get sent off to mini-borstels because they feel that they're going to turn into ISIS fighters. Kovan herself remained in captivity, was held multiple rapes. Her story is absolutely horrendous, it's hard to listen to. It's hard to listen to a lot of those stories without feeling, you know, just heart-wrenchingly sad. At age 14 she hadn't even started menstruating at that point and she was being gang raped and sold between men who were 20, 30, 40 years old. I think part of her story was just... and she... the thing that was most disturbing to me was that she said it very monosyllabically, very robotically and it was only when she

started talking about her children, because she got two children born of rape, that she broke down and her anger was really fuelled by the way the women, the ISIS wives treated her. Yeah, I mean, it's her experience was truly, it's savage, it's just absolutely appalling what the treatment that was meted out to her and of course not just her. But it's savage, it's just absolutely appalling, the treatment that was meted out to her, and of course not just her. But it's interesting, isn't it? We do need to see this through the prism of one individual, and it was listening to her and seeing her that really concentrated my mind. We do need to almost get to know these people, don't we? I think it helps with being able to associate with people who are from a different culture,

and maybe speak different languages, and seem to be from a land far away if you can somehow build a bond between you and whoever's watching. Because everyone can identify, she could be your daughter, your sister, your wife, your partner. Everyone can sort of identify if you can build a picture of what their personality is like. So she was allowed to leave or she was picked up by security forces, wasn't she? She swept out with a family and got taken to the detention camp and then stayed there for a number of years. Too scared because you're surrounded by extremists, you feel, and those extremists don't think that you're human. So you've gone from one prison to another prison. But when she was allowed to leave the refugee camp,

the price she had to pay for that was that her children couldn't come with her. The Yazidi community is very conflicted about this, because under Iraqi law, where many of them have emerged after being rescuing to spend more time in refugee camps because they can't return to their homes they're still in rubble. Under Iraqi law if you've got one parent is Yazidi and one parent is Muslim, the Islamic State fighter, you're declared Muslim and the Yazidi community is worried on all sorts of levels. One that, the one half of the family, the extremist half, will come back and try and claim the children.

They don't feel safe in that area anyway. You've got a whole community that's massively traumatized. It's so depressing. I mean you were right to say that it is frankly a deeply, deeply challenging subject and I appreciate that some people listening would have felt that was more detailed than they needed at this time of day so I apologize. I know I apologize. No, Alex don't apologize because this is such an important story Just a very brief word on whether the regime change in Syria has impacted that refugee camp and its security I mean with these people are they gonna be okay? Or I mean, in the sense are they gonna be contained there? Yeah lots of things have impacted it. The Trump administration withdrawing USAID meant that they suddenly didn't have any aid coming into the camp for four days and they didn't

know whether that was going to be just end. They didn't get water, they didn't get food because they were a lie on aid coming into the camp. Second thing is the new regime wants to take over control of these camps and the Kurdish-led SDF doesn't want to relinquish control. And there is a worry amongst the Kurds who mainly form the SDF that they will be the next target. They know that a number of these people have links with ISIS outside. They know that ISIS is regrouping and getting stronger. And they're worried that if they're suddenly freed, there's going to be a big issue. And they keep on telling me anyway that this is not just an issue for Iraq and Syria it's an

issue for the world. Yeah well it should be an issue for the world that's for sure. And Alex's documentary is 10 years of darkness ISIS and the Yazidis and you can see it on Sky on Friday evening at 9 o'clock and it's well I mean it's really worthwhile if you can find the time and Alex is a formidable journalist so he has huge respect from us. Very much so sister. In other parish notices any suggestions for book club number 672? Got completely lost on where we are. We would happily take those. It won't be our bumper summer read it'll be the one before that. I think for the bumper summer read we really want to find something. Page

turning, essential, beachy, summery, something like that. Yeah. What? Shall we say what? We will decide at the end of next week because Eve has told us to. Eve has had a challenging podcast today because she sat down on her chair to find that one arm was missing and you know what I'm amazed if I can be honest if that had been my colleague Jane Garvey at some point she would have fallen off. Well I know I would. I need support on both sides.

So Eve's done very well as ever. Yes she has and just to say to Kerry Rose again thank you so much for sending these extracts from your mum's diary. It just means such a lot when people are prepared to share this really personal stuff with us and it's much appreciated, it really is. New postcards in and they will go up on the postcard wall, so just a thank you to Sarah, to Katie and to oh the fantastic person whose husband walked into the room once and heard us discussing gynaecological issues and now calls us the vagina women. Debbie from Tring. I've been called worse. It's on the BBC log. And Bonnet in Bristol. Yes, no thank you all. Do you want to give

the snail mail address? It's important, it reminds me of when I wanted to be a DJ and I used to listen to the DJs giving the address. Off air, Times Radio, News UK 1, London Bridge Street, London, SE 1, 9GF. Thank you very much indeed, you did that adequately. Thank you for listening, we'll be back tomorrow. Congratulations, you've staggered somehow to the end of another Off Air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do do it live, every day, Monday to Thursday, two till four, on Times Radio.

The jeopardy is off the scale, and if you listen to this, you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online on DAB or on the free Times Radio app. Off Air is produced by Eve Salisbury and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler.