Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Trying to associate youths on the bus with whooshing romanticism

Episode Date: December 13, 2023

We're all getting giddy for Christmas as the team dinner looms! Before that can happen, Jane and Fi must do a couple more podcasts. They chat stamps, overnight trains and Saltburn... They're joined by writer and actor Katherine Jakeways to discuss her latest creation 'The Buccaneers'. If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] Follow us on Instagram! @janeandfi Assistant Producer: Eve Salusbury Times Radio Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

VoiceOver describes what's happening on your iPhone screen. VoiceOver on. Settings. So you can navigate it just by listening. Books. Contacts. Calendar. Double tap to open. Breakfast with Anna from 10 to 11. And get on with your day. Accessibility. There's more to iPhone. Do you play bridge, Jane?

Eight card games. You've seen Saltburn, haven't you, Eve? Yep. What is so dreadful about it then? Just go and see it. Well, I will, but what are people talking about? Well, I can't tell you. Okay, welcome, welcome.

Are we ready to go? Are we already going? Okay. It is Wednesday. We're a little bit giddy. We're playing Christmas carols on the Times Radio show today. And also it is our programme's Christmas dinner tomorrow night. So I think the anticipation has got to people already, hasn't it?

We've circulated the menu. Yeah. And we should say there's only about, is it six of us? Seven. Is it seven? Seven of us, yeah. Remind me who my dear colleagues are. They are Eve.

Oh, yeah. She's in the room with us now. No, I'm not going to forget her. Me. Yeah. Rosie. Yes. Kate. Yes.

Megan. Yes. Einar. Oh, lovely. Okay. Yes. Kate. Yes. Megan. Yes. Einar. Oh, lovely. Okay. I wasn't sure whether Einar was coming. Would you like them to wear badges? Yeah, it would be helpful.

Yes, it would be helpful. Especially after the drink takes cold. Mind you, I've given up drink, as I've made very clear. I had a little episode which I've been mulling over whether or not I should mention it, but I'm going to decide to put it out there. Are you drunk now? No, but nearly. High on life. and I'm going to decide to put it out there. Are you drunk now? No, but nearly.

High on life. I had one of those incidents where I became the middle-aged woman on the bus. Have you ever done this? I told off some youths for swearing. No, I've never told anyone off for swearing. A couple of these lads got on and honestly, their language, it was laughable. It was laughably bad, considering language, it was laughable. It was laughably bad, considering it was mid-morning, it was quite a crowded bus full of very small children and elderly people going about their entirely legitimate business.

What age are these youths? These youths, I put them at about 15. One of them was wearing his trousers so low down on his buttocks that I think it attempted every single other passenger on the bus to just yank them, just to actually just, oh, just put them right down. He could hardly walk. He was taking such care to keep them on when they were almost at knee level. I'm not joking.

No, I know what you mean. It was absolutely ridiculous. I think it's called showing, isn't it? Well, I just wish that he wouldn't show. Anyway, the conversation went as well as you might expect. That'll probably be the last time I tell off some youths. So did they turn on you?

Not in any physical way, no. They were verbally. They gave me a few verbals and I'm afraid I gave it back. But we parted on relatively good terms when I I got off at my stop in fact I didn't get off any earlier and I wished them both a very happy Christmas so it was only two of them oh yeah it was only two of them okay in all fairness I wouldn't have taken on more than two okay is this a double decker or are you

on just a single bus it's One of those small shoppers. It wasn't a small shopper, it was a double-decker. I was on the bottom of the double-decker, at the back. It's probably my own fault for sitting close to the back. No, I don't think so, because most youths go upstairs on a double-decker. I know they do. But it just would have been funny if it was on a shopper. I just don't know why it wasn't on a single-decker. But the thing is,

what should you do in those circumstances? They were being offensive. Well, I would never intervene because I'm too scared of some kind of retribution that I wouldn't really be able to handle. I also, I've got quite a high tolerance level for swearing so I'm a little bit potty-mouthed myself.

Yeah, but you wouldn't be on a bus. No, I mean, you're right, I wouldn't be on a bus. Just no. No, when you're an old lady, I think you and I will both be travelling around London entirely free of charge, swearing at... Oh, I see. I would concur with that vision of the future.

Oh, absolutely. Anyway, I'm just saying, has anybody else done that? Have you ever... Because the number of times in my life, you'll be astonished to hear, I'm just saying, has anybody else done that? Have you ever? Because the number of times in my life, you'll be astonished to hear, I have chosen to ignore things like that.

But on this occasion, for whatever reason, I just didn't want to ignore it. And I think also, I'm not sure that you would give a ticking off to maybe 19, 20, 21-year-old blokes. But I think 15 is

almost still young enough to feel a little bit maternal There was an element, a tiny element of that but also it was in the middle of the they should have been in school Yeah, you're right Obviously I didn't suddenly say, aren't you in double geography, officially

I didn't go that far but it was just, anyway I am the neighbourhood Nellie, I am the neighbourhood Nellie. I am the old woman on the bus. Now, before you get to the greatest photo opportunity of all time, which we're going to put up on the Instagram, how many Christmas cards have you got so far this year? Three.

Only three? Yeah. OK. Well, I'm assuming they're Christmas cards. Three cards have arrived. I haven't opened them. You've not opened them? No. Okay.

Because I am topping out at six, but I think that's it. I don't think any more are coming at all. I did buy some stamps today, but the price of a first-class stamp in Britain... It's huge. Yeah. I mean, I did actually... You're what? And also, they're...

What is it? It's over a quid. Yeah, it's £1. I think they're £1.20, £1.30. And also their Charles stamps. Is that not good? Well, it's not the same, is it? I asked for the Christmas ones.

I didn't get Christmas. I just got King's Head. Right. I can't take it seriously when it's not the Queen on the stamp. I don't think they're going to deliver Charles stamps. Do you not? No.

Anyway, the really awful publicity photograph that has made, for whatever reason, they've chosen to put it in the Guardian today, it's one of the worst photographs ever taken. And it's to promote, and I use that word advisedly, to me rather appealing, Berlin-Paris overnight train. And I didn't know they'd stopped running the service. Apparently they had. People were just flying between Paris and Berlin. But they brought back an overnight train. I think that's something romantic about pan-Europe overnight train travel,

isn't there? Well, I look forward to hearing your verdict once you've used that. Well, I won't be using it, but I'm very happy to read about it. But in order to mark this maiden journey of the new Berlin Link, the French transport minister, Clément Bonne, hugged his German counterpart, Volker Wissing, before departing. There's two great

names there. The French transport minister, Clément Bonne, and his German counterpart, Volker Wissing. They had a little Clement Beun and his German counterpart, Volker Bissing. Right. They had a little smooch together because they're friends these days and off they set on this journey. But this initiative is promoted with the worst photograph ever taken

of Clement Beun, the French transport minister, who is standing in what looks like an impossibly cramped overnight bed carriage. How would you describe that? So what's really weird about it is he's got four people in front of him, all presumably very talented, high-level executives, who are all either sitting on the ground or crouched on the floor or kneeling. Or Mr Bone is some kind of a giant. I mean, he's two foot taller than everybody else.

There's one rail official, as he's built here, hovering very close to his erogenous zones, but they're all crammed into this... It is bizarre. This cabin, which is filled with... But who said cr crouch down like that? It looks like they're all having a communal wee. Yeah, it's absolutely terrible. And we'll do nothing at all to entice people

to use this overnight rail service. But anyway. But take a picture. We'll have to credit it, won't we? But we'll pop it up on the Insta. Well, the photograph is by, yes, it's by Shutterstock. Yeah. Well, that's OK, just as long as you include their name in it.

Yeah, okay. Well, I'll just pass that over to one side. Anyway, there we are. So if you do plan to take that rail service, let us know what it's like. And indeed, have you travelled overnight on trains across Europe? Because I do think there is something, I don't know, there's something rather dazzling about getting on a train in Vienna and waking up in Budapest. Yeah, I would agree. Definitely.

Whereas getting on at Euston and waking up in Glasgow. It's just not the same. I did take a very long train journey from Paris down to Lake Wörthensee in Austria about five, six years ago. And it was beautiful because the Austrian rail network stopped stop me if at any time I'm losing you, Jane, it is nationalised. So it's, no, come on, I've sat through that. So the trains are just beautiful. They have, you know, proper linen tablecloths,

even in the second class. And incredibly clean and very efficient. And it was just a completely different journey. And it was lovely. Really, really lovely. It was the proper definition of exciting pan-European rail travel. But you're right. If you came back to this country, and even if you're on,

I think GNR's not bad sometimes. They've got nice stock. Yes, they have. It doesn't have the same kind of whooshing romanticism about it at all. I'm trying to associate those ewes on the bus with whooshing romanticism. I think they've got quite a long way to travel before they meet that. It's just the fact that they call a breaded chicken product a schnitzel. It's just better, isn't it? Schnitzel.

So schnitzel just is evocative of so many things. It is. You're right. It's just findus frozen. Breaded chicken. It's not the same. No, it's not. Right. Bring us an email, Jane.

Yes, OK. Do you know who I am is the title of this email from Joe in Salisbury. I was listening to a podcast, one of your podcasts, I mean, not just any old one, on tonight's dog walk, and the tale of Do You Know Who I Am reminded me of something that happened to me many years ago. Now, this will resonate with you, Fi. In one of my first jobs after uni, it was roughly 1995,

I was working in a record shop in Winchester. It was a rather random American chain called Sam Goodies. As one of the managers, I used to deal with shoplifters on a fairly regular basis, and I learned that it's a wide and varied cross-section of society... Sorry. A wide and varied cross-section of society that likes to steal. Winchester is home to one of the country's most prestigious public schools,

not the nice one up the hill that Fee went to, the other one. And we used to get a lot of wickamists in the shop. Can I just say, ours wasn't a public school, it was just a private school. It's different, isn't it? It's not quite as knobby. You've totally lost our entire audience outside the UK. One day I watched as two of these chinless wonders, an

expression used by Joe, decided to help themselves to a couple of CDs. Waiting until they'd left the shop, as you're not stealing until you've left the store. Oh, that's quite useful to know, isn't it? I followed them, stopped them, and asked them to come back into the shop, as I believed they'd taken things without paying.

At this point, the poshest of the two of them declared rather loudly, do you know who my father is? To which I replied, oh my God, I'm so sorry. Has your mother never told you? To say his face was a picture would be an understatement. I can't really remember whether he was charged with actual shoplifting, but I'm fairly sure

I've repeated my side of this story far more than he has. Jo in Salisbury. Thank you for that, Jo. I don't recall the record shop that has that chain at all because there was one record shop in Winchester but I would have been there 10 years previously and

I don't doubt that there was thieving among the Wickhamists at all Wickhamists are people who go to Winchester that's what they call themselves and Rishicamists are people who go to Winchester, that's right. Yes, that's what they call themselves. And Rishi Sunak, our Prime Minister, went to Winchester College. And I've not kept in touch with anybody that we knew back in the day, really. I'm sure some of them are absolutely lovely guys,

but it's a prestigious school, and that's what they seem to wake up every morning telling themselves. What? Hello, I'm prestigious. Yeah, maybe. Yeah, I don't know, Jane. Those aren't my fondest memories. Saltburn is a film that's currently out. Oh, God, no. Are we going to do this?

No, no, no. I like this email from Hazel. Saltburn is a film that I think it's fair to say lots of people have watched. I think it's been quite successful. It's properly divided people because there's at least one scene that has really... Well, are we going to include Eve's description of the scene at the beginning of the podcast? I muted that.

You muted that. Young Eve has told us what happens in one particular scene. Let's just call it the bathroom scene, which Maud has as emailed to say, left her feeling decidedly uncomfortable. The next sexual scene was in a garden, and that shocked me, and I wondered where on earth is the pleasure in that?

What, gardening? No, I've never understood that either, to be honest. No, it's something other than gardening. Right, okay. Maud, thank you. So Maud goes on to say that the bit that she struggles with is the fact that somebody thought to write that and then film it. And I'm really with her on that because sometimes...

You can say that about any number of scenes. Well, you can, but sometimes there are such visceral scenes in movies now. You just think, wow, somebody sat in their room on their own and came up with that. That's quite nasty. That's a dark mind. Yeah, that's a worrying mind to me. Yes.

Hazel, though, does say, being a Yorkshire woman, when I heard the title Saltburn, and I've been to Saltburn. It's a very interesting... Have you been to Saltburn? No, I've not been to Saltburn. It's in the Teesside area. And I once did a week of programming based around the Teesside area. And that included a trip to Saltburn. Anyway, Hazel said...

Would we be able to find that recorded in a museum anywhere, Jane? I think the Saltburn Museum will probably bear record. Anyway, being a Yorkshire woman, says Hazel, as soon as I heard the name Saltburn, I assumed that Ken Loach had made another brilliant, hard-hitting film, this time about the decline of the steel industry in the north-east of England. I know how wrong I was. It wasn't a reflection on the terrible state of those of us who need levelling up,

but a weird sort of bride's head revisited. My other half and I went to see it this week. What an experience. I thought it was brilliant, actually. Dark, bizarre, unexpectedly gripping, really well acted and directed. My husband is not quite as convinced as I am and is still reeling, I think, from the weirdness of it. He hasn't recovered yet. Nor has my Pilates teacher's mother-in-law, I don't think. For the book club, though, Hazel has an interesting suggestion, Wintering by Catherine May the blurb says

wintering is a poignant and comforting meditation on the fallow periods of life, times when we must retreat to care for and repair ourselves, Catherine May thoughtfully shows us how to come through these times with the wisdom of knowing that like the seasons, our winters

and our summers are the ebb and flow of life. I've read Wintering by Catherine May. Oh, have you? Okay. And I'd happily put it up for the book club, but it didn't ding my dongs at all. Oh, well it definitely donged Hazel's dings. Yeah.

Hazel, thank you for that, and that's our first suggestion for the next book club. Keep them coming, janeandfee at times.radio. But what's interesting about the suggestion is obviously it's non-fiction yes which we have said that we might entertain yes and i know loads of people really enjoyed wintering when i bought it on a recommendation from a friend but it just for me uh i was i don't know what i was expecting actually but something maybe a little more it's quite kind of it's a warm blanket of solace going on in that book I found it a bit much after a while too much solace yeah okay almost a quantum Jane oh god yeah

voiceover describes what's happening on your iphone screen voiceover on settings so you can navigate it just by listening books contacts calendar double tap to open breakfast with anna from 10 to 11 and get on with your day accessibility there's more to iPhone. We'll take your thoughts as well on the male contraceptive pill, please. Because a big news story today. In the UK. That 16 men are undergoing a trial to take the male contraceptive pill. This is happening in Nottingham.

And it could be the start of a revolution in contraception. And the word could is doing quite a lot of heavy lifting there, I think. It is. But it's such an interesting debate because it's about trust and it's about perceptions of people's sense of responsibility. It's about what we've all felt when we've had to take the pill or decided not to take the pill. Now it's on them. I'd just be very interested to hear people's thoughts about it. And we had a lovely chat with a very nice young man today on the radio programme who was deliciously honest

about how his generation might feel about it. And I felt quite encouraged. I thought he said some very good things. Well, what else could he say? Come on the radio live to talk to a couple of old harpies and say... That's true. It's kind of self-selecting, isn't it? But he also, we corpsed

as well, and I can't repeat why we did, but it was just one of those moments where we were trying so hard with our 638 years of broadcasting experience between us not to both giggle at the same thing that accidentally slipped out. Anyway.

Oh, get on with it. But our big guest today was the multi-talented Catherine Jakeways, who has taken an unfinished novel by Edith Wharton and turned it into a 21st century friendly Apple TV sensation called The Buccaneers, or as Eve likes to say, The Buccaneers. I don't know why. Still making me laugh, that one.

So she's very talented, isn't she, Catherine? She's done loads and loads of other things. She's a good woman. She's written a lot of plays for Radio 4. She's written a number of successful series, including genuinely one of my favourites, in a number of successful series, including genuinely one of my favourites, North by Northamptonshire,

which is this just bone dry, brilliant radio sitcom about a small village in Northamptonshire with some amazing people in it. Sheila Hancock, Penelope Wilton, just some cracking observations about the niceties and the non-entities of British life, I would say. No, she's a good woman.

But now, I think it's fair to say, she is properly hitting the big time and she's worked very hard to achieve this success. I put it to Catherine that she has more strings to her bow than you could cock a snook at. I didn't know how you... A bow, let alone with strings on it. Oh, you've got a bow.

I've done some acting, yeah. Yes, you're a comedian and now you're a writer. I don't know where to start, but your most important role was in the archers i loved doing the archers i've done a few episodes i think i've appeared every now and then when alice has needed somebody to alice is in a track let me know when this is over alice is in a and you're her sponsor aren't you i am yeah i think yes i've only been in it a few times i don don't know how Alice is getting on now with her drinking. She's all right.

I slightly hope she might go off the wagon. Oh, that's absolutely outrageous. We'll park Ambridge right there. A lot of people listening, I imagine, will be at home, will be people who would love to be a writer and hear someone introduced to someone who's written an Apple TV show and think, I'd like a slice of that pie. But it's not been all that easy to get here, has it? It's been a long old road, I would say. I did my first

radio show over 10 years ago, and I spent 10 years sort of writing radio and every now and then pitching bits of television and sort of getting to places and almost getting there. And I made a pilot and I did a couple of things and nearly got there. But no, it's been, yeah, it's been at least a decade of sort of toiling away doing other stuff and writing less well-paid things. Yes. Well, I was about to ask, don't worry, we're going to get on to how much Apple TV is giving you. But writing for the BBC, for example example is uh time consuming at times i imagine soul destroying and also very lonely because you're sitting there trying to bang it out and are you someone who can work with a bit of noise going on or do you need no quiet silence and i find

that's annoying for everybody around me i've got better at being able to have the odd sort of noise in the background but no if there's a radio on or any kind of music, I can't work. So no, I do need to have no noise at all at home when I'm working annoyingly for everyone. But I, yes, in radio, it's basically you and one producer who's sort of a producer slash director, as you know, when you're doing sort of scripted stuff. So you're very much left to it, which is obviously great in lots of ways. left to it which is obviously great in lots of ways uh but it's only once i've discovered the sort of joys of having a team of people who are really much more experienced and uh efficient than i am around me that i've realized how you know how lovely that is as well actually because you do then uh you know there's always somebody you can talk to and be on the phone to or be in

a room with and kind of spark ideas off and sort of they can go no absolutely you're not having that and if you trust not having that and if you trust them then that's that's half the battle take us uh we probably haven't got time to take us on the entire journey but you move from writing critically acclaimed stuff for the bbc to being told by somebody at apple television take all the money and just give us a version of the buccaneers please it wasn't quite that straightforward but yes yes, I get what you're saying. Yes, the production company, The Forge, had heard some of my radio plays and liked them and thought I would be a decent match

for Edith Wharton's sort of style, which is mainly character-based, mainly women, often quite funny, but sort of with pathos as well. So they asked me to do a version of a script of The Buccaneers and Apple liked it very much and commissioned another one. And yes, in telly terms, it was actually quite straightforward.

Once the ball was rolling, it actually happened quite quickly. But it was still three or four years of kind of lockdown writing in a bedroom with everybody around me trying to do homeschooling and stuff. And what makes The Buccaneers buccaneering? and we're trying to do homeschooling and stuff. And what makes the Buccaneers buccaneering? They are a group of vibrant, sort of articulate, beautiful, rich women from America who come over in the 1870s to aristocratic England in order to find husbands according to their parents.

And according to them, because they are young women and they are going out with their friends for the first time and off on a big adventure with all their girlfriends, they are looking for good are going out with their friends for the first time and off on a big adventure with all their girlfriends they are looking for uh good times and fun with their friends and maybe they might meet some boys along the way but actually it's more about the fact that they're going to be there with their mates and having a great time so they are coming over and sort of finding this whole new world of uh titles in england and assuming that it's all going to be plain sailing of course it isn't and what starts as quite sort of joyous and frothy

and entertaining quite quickly over the course of the series becomes much more sort of serious and obviously hopefully it's funny and sort of joyful along the way but it does become sort of slightly darker in places and by the end certainly of the series and the finale

is out today so the whole series is now available away episodes it is sort of a quite different beast to what it starts out as actually because their journeys have become so sort of um sorry to use the word journey we're very self-conscious about using the word journey it's sometimes quite hard to avoid isn't it well yes i mean anybody with the amount of experience i've had of avanti west tries to avoid i mentioned avanti west at least once a program because you just need the airing frankly it just maybe one day they'll improve um yes i mean the first episode right yes no um i don't have to use them for a week or so so all right um the very first episode of the buccaneers is just a blaze

with color and as you say vibrancy and verve. It is. It's great fun. And these women are amazingly sort of articulate and they kind of move as a pack and they're like whirlwinds that they turned up in these kind of stiff aristocratic drawing rooms. And it really happened, didn't it? Absolutely, yeah. It was absolutely a phenomenon.

Winston Churchill's mother, of course, was the sort of most famous of these dollar princesses who came over from New York. Is that what they were called? Dollar princesses? Yes, that's how the term was. And were we sending women over to America to meet the rich American men? I don't think so. No, I think it was more of a transactional thing because the English needed the cash, you see. They had the titles, but they had these crumbling stately homes where they were desperate for the injection of cash

and they were allowing these women to come over and marry their sons. And most of the women were actually new money so they weren't able to get sort of invited to parties in New York and the New York society was very sniffy about that. I tell you what, that's a points-based immigration system there, isn't it? Well, it is, actually. Actually, it is. It is. It completely is.

There's a lot of sort of similarities, actually, and it does strike chords down the line with those kind of stories. Absolutely. It was the Downton Abbey story as well, wasn't it? Yeah, I think there was a character in Downton who did it. Yeah, Lady Downton or Lady Abbey. Lady, one of the Downton or Abbey. Hugh Bonneville's lady wife, I think,

was one of those Gilded Age American ladies. Yes. But I was just thinking, watching it, you can whiff the money. And I think there was probably more dollar spent on the very first scene of The Buccaneers than on how many series of North by Northamptonshire for Radio 4? Oh, three, and a Christmas special. Yeah, I think there were, I think there was a lot more money.

Yeah, there's a lot of beautiful locations. And we filmed the whole thing in Scotland. So although it's set in Cornwall and London and New York, the whole thing was filmed in Scotland for the whole of last year. So these amazing sort of cliff tops and stately homes and castles and the sort of streets that double for New York and double for London that we filmed in either Edinburgh or Glasgow. But it is beautiful.

And we did, yeah, great care has been taken with the sets and I mean some of the sets and I didn't say sex I said sets oh yes I was worried by your face and lots of people have been worried by it great care has also been taken with the sex but the the sets were unbelievably detailed and beautiful and handmade wallpaper made and chaise longs and the costumes yeah the costumes are stunning, they really are. So now that streaming services are making such high quality and successful drama, where does that leave the BBC? Do you think in 30, 40 years' time, a writer like yourself

would not have on their CV all of that early BBC stuff? That's a really good question. I'd be sad to think that was the case because I was so sort of grateful for those years of doing stuff on the radio and doing, you know, the learning that happens when you're having to do that many episodes of something with so little interference. Or encouragement. Certainly none of that. No. Having not done any BBC telly, I don't know whether it's the same, but I would imagine it's similar, that you... I mean, obviously, all television,

there is a bit more encouragement and also interference than there is in any of the kind of radio stuff that I did. But I think the BBC are going to have to... I would love to think... I mean, I'm a huge fan of the BBC. I'm sure we all are, in terms of their sort of sentimentality,

and we sort of want that as a force for good. But if other people can do it, then you can't maintain the argument that everyone should pay for it. I think that's a possibility, yeah, absolutely. And I think that, truthfully, if I think about what I actually watch these days on telly, very little of it is the BBC and that's not for want of trying or looking for stuff.

Well, you've tried to get your own stuff commissioned by the BBC. Absolutely. But inevitably you do go for the more sort of high-end, more sort of the stuff that's got the stars in it and the stuff that you've heard of and then truthfully the money, I suppose, behind it. Not that there haven't been brilliant, very cheap things made. No, don't apologise for the money.

Sorry, I'm sorry. North by Northamptonshire, if anybody hasn't heard it, is it still available to listen to, actually? I think it will be, yeah. I tried to find it and I couldn't find it. Oh, really? Surely. I'm always getting messages saying it's been repeated on various... Radio Extra.

But it will be on BBC Sounds, I think. OK, well, that's where I looked. I couldn't find it. I'm very proud of that. It's very funny, Catherine. Thank you. I mean, there are just these endless throwaway memorable lines. Like you describe, what was the name of the village

in North by Northampton? Waddenbrook. Waddenbrook. Had a post office that sold teapots in the shape of buildings. Oh. Do you remember that? That does ring a bell. And if I did put that line in,

it will be based on the Jill Wing shop on Upper Street in London, which used to always sell teapots in the shape of buildings and I was quite obsessed with. And it's quite recently closed. What was the strangest building that they ever had a teapot in the shape of?

Did they try and do the shard? I think, no. I think it'd be mainly thatched cottages, wouldn't it? Oh, I see. Yes, that kind of teapot. Yeah, no, I don't think you'd be recognising them and picking them out. They're just kind of quaint little streets. Well, I think there's an opening in the market for modern buildings.

Yeah, you can do that for Christmas. Euston Station. I mean, I'd love to drink a cup of tea out of that. We just wanted to make it clear to people, if they want some escapism, but a little bit more, The Buccaneers is on Apple TV right now. Great soundtrack as well. Oh, fantastic soundtrack.

Female-heavy cast. All women. Entirely women on the soundtrack. All women on the soundtrack, virtual women in the cast, although lots of good men as well, and mainly female creatives and team behind it. And we're hugely proud of it, actually. By the sort of finale which comes out today,

it's all about the women and all about their sort of rallying for each other. And there's a great love triangle at the proud of it, actually. By the sort of finale which comes out today, I just, you know, it's all about the women and all about their sort of rallying for each other. And there's a great love triangle at the centre of it, which has set the internet slightly alight about Team Guy or Team Theo, but really it's about her choosing her friends and her sister at the end. You should always choose.

Oh, absolutely. I don't have a sister, but if I did, she would... Oh, you should always choose your sister. I was going to say, yeah. My sister won't be listening, so that's all right. Now let's move on seamlessly to the male contraceptive pill, which we are told, Fiona, is... Well, we've got some fantastic suggestions

because we were looking for a slightly more enigmatic and imaginative title for it, brand name for it. What's it currently called? Well, it's currently, what is it, VCY529, which isn't particularly catchy. Yeah, well done. So this one comes from Sue Freemaneman who says yct529 i'm so sorry uh god knows what would happen if you took cvy what's wrong with the name along the

lines of uh vagifem and anus so soon well you see this is the point you shouldn't be laughing because they clearly identify where you're meant to put those creams and that is helpful in a dark bathroom of an evening. So Sue suggests it should simply be called the penis stop. Oh, I think that's fair enough. It might catch on. I think that would be useful as well because men would then be less likely to forget it

because if you'd said, have you remembered your penis today, they would, yes, every two minutes I've remembered it. Exactly. Blankety blank is the suggestion that's come from many people including tim she's quite written and andy suggests a jaffa pill and that's because the jaffa oranges are seedless yeah but in truth i wonder whether women would be prepared to give away, well, the certainty. That's if you can depend upon... The control.

The control. If you can depend upon yourself to take the pill, how many women would honestly be willing to trust a man to do it? Or am I just being unfair? What do you think? My husband's relatively trustworthy, I would say, but I still think that I would find it more stressful having to remind him every day of having... It's not something that I think I it more stressful having to remind him every day or for having I it's not something that I think I would ever be able to just uh you know cede control of

so to speak yeah um I think so I think you would still you'd be thinking about it even more actually I think it would actually be more of a an effort for women because you'd constantly have to say have you taken it have you taken it whereas if you're taking it yourself you're just it becomes second nature so I feel mean saying that men, and I'm sure men would be able to, but it's something that would take a long time for you to actually be confident in, I think. Yeah, and this is, I guess, where the problem lies. I would just like to say something on behalf of men who worry enormously about getting women pregnant. And I think I completely hear what you're saying. And I know that you're saying the same thing, Jane,

but I don't think you can underestimate the fear, especially for young men, of getting a woman pregnant. You know, it is... That's true. I think that there just is a more responsible attitude towards sex, actually, and a certainly more talked-about responsibility. That's lovely to hear. So I just hope that we can trust men to take it.

And the statistics are interesting, that as many men want to take the male pill as women want to take the female pill at the moment. Oh, that is interesting. Can the man take it and the woman still be on the pill as well? No, you kind of double-bubble it. You could double-bubble, yeah. I wonder if that's what would end up happening.

Or you could just hold hands. You could actually just have a nice cup of tea. That's always an option, Catherine. And a cold shower. Yeah. We decided to hurl a topical question about the male contraceptive pill at Catherine Jakeways towards the end of that conversation.

That's us. We just can't resist just being topical. One of those things. And I hope you recognise the fact that's why I introduced the male pill to the conversation before we went into that. Otherwise, it wouldn't make any sense. Do you know what? You are, you're so good sometimes that it takes my breath away. So I'm afraid I'm not able to say anything else. Right. It is Jane and Fee at Times.Rad dot radio we love hearing from you we would happily take suggestions for the book club but do you know what i think both jane and i fully recognize

we're in the christmas season everybody's got a list nobody gets to the end of it possibly the last thing that you need to think about is recommending a book to us birds perched on a wire natteringattering away. You can leave it till January. We'll still be taking your suggestions then, so don't sweat it. Don't sweat it. And if you want to suggest Ian Beefy Botham's autobiography,

that would be great, because I've read that. Oh no, is that good? What do you think? Anyway, a Christmas dinner tomorrow. Looking forward to that. Plus, we're going to record Miriam Margulies, because she's banned from being live. She's so... And our guest tomorrow on the podcast, and you'll definitely

enjoy this, is Maria Mercurlo. So can we just make Miriam Margulies bingo card? So it's definitely got an onion on it. Fart. Fart and a radish and the F word and possibly the C word. Let's see how many we can get through. OK, yes. Going home for a lie down, I think, in preparation. Well done for getting to the end of another episode of Off Air with Jane Garvey and Fee Glover. Our Times Radio producer is Rosie Cutler

and the podcast executive producer is Henry Tribe. And don't forget, there is even more of us every afternoon on Times Radio. It's Monday to Thursday, three till five. You can pop us on when you're pottering around the house or heading out in the car on the school run or running a bank. Thank you for joining us and we hope you can join us again on Off Air very soon. Don't be so silly. Running a bank? I know ladies. A lady listener. I'm sorry. VoiceOver describes what's happening on your iphone screen voiceover on settings so you can navigate it just by listening books contacts calendar double tap to open breakfast with from 10 to 11 and get on with your day accessibility there's more to iphone