Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Unsalvageable bean dishes (with Trinny Woodall)

Episode Date: September 19, 2023

Jane and Fi massively get the Tuesday giggles in this one but, before that, they chat Fi's chilli-con-carne-smugness, children flying the nest and shared baths. Plus, they're joined by TV personality and entrepreneur Trinny Woodall to discuss her new book 'Fearless'. If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] Follow us on Instagram! @janeandfi Assistant Producer: Eve Salusbury Times Radio Producer: Kate Lee Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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So my handbag, a packet of tissues, a hairbrush you might be surprised to hear, and yeah I know. Why? My emergency spoons. Yeah. And. What are your emergency spoons? Well, my big horror is to be trapped on a train without the means of eating my granola. Oh, good God.

You're absolutely right. So, in fact, I've just seen a message from my daughter on the WhatsApp group. Tell you what, middle class emergency. She's currently on a bus and there's a woman eating a tub of strawberry-flavoured Oatly without a spoon. What, just using a finger? Oh, no, that terrible I know nope nope so oakley yogurt I mean I've tried it but it's not for me that's yogurt made with oat milk and I always feel very sorry I wonder what those milking sheds are like for the oats they must be are they they must be either very small or very crowded. I can't make it out. Do you think they do it first thing in the morning?

I don't know. All those oat farmers getting up at two o'clock. I don't know. I'm slightly baffled by what oat milk is. I buy it very regularly. So you know you can make it so easily. With what? I don't say oats.

It's one of the cons of uh modern supermarket shopping it is just oats if you leave oats to soak in water overnight yeah and then you pour that water through a sieve or a muslin square jane and you've got oat milk that's it that's all it is that's all it is there's a time in, well, many women's lives where muslins. What do you call them? Muslins. Well, I just call them muslins. But they're so handy to have.

Oh, they're handy. For everything, aren't they? They really are. If you've got a little bit of jam you need to strain, or perhaps you've got a brea bass that's got some spiky claws in it, or you need to just polish your bathtub. Anyway, have you finished rummaging, or are you going to carry on doing it? No, I'm just, I needed to find my lip salve.

But as I was looking for it, I just realised that I've got a very handy sachet of mayonnaise in there, if you want some. And some diorite replacement of lost water and body salts in case you've had any issues. Brilliant. Almost every emergency is covered there. But it is good to know, isn't it, that I do have emergency spoons and I just can't tell you the feeling of relief when you realise the emergency has passed

because you can just go into your emergency spoon section. Well, I might put on my little Christmas list for Jane Garvey. I might get you a spork. What's that? So that's a spoon and a fork all in one. And then you'll be able to use your spork for your dinner here. Because I think that actually the whole of this empire

might come crashing down over the amount of cutlery that doesn't make it back to the canteen here. I've seen so many forks just accidentally go into the recycling. Because you go to the canteen, I'm not saying you, but one goes to the canteen, gets a takeaway to eat, salad, whatever it is, brings a fork back to the desk. Nobody's taking that fork back.

Well, I do. Do you? So you don't need a spork? No, I take my fork back to the desk. Nobody's taking that fork back. Well, I do. Do you? So you don't need a spork? No, I take my fork back every day. Don't you think it's something that wouldn't be recognised by previous generations, eating lunch at your desk? I know. It is low, isn't it? I mean, I do it every day and I'm not complaining because we happen to come in around lunchtime and I'm

always really hungry. Just the journey. It does make me ever so hungry, sitting down on a tube train. I don't know why. Anyway, I always eat, but at my desk. It's such a funny thing. And I am rather jealous

of previous generations who would maybe even pop out for lunch. And I don't mean a lavish three-course meal. I mean just leave. No, but there was a lunch hour. Yes. So I remember starting in local radio, particularly actually when I was

at Radio Humberside up in Hull. So there was a really properly defined lunch hour on any shift that you were on. And I would always go and have a pork and stuffing bun from the baker's downstairs and a bit of a sit on a bench. You'd pop to the post office, you'd do a couple of chores. I mean, it just was, it was just a really established part of your day. Yeah. And I suppose it just stuck in the mind because everybody on the station really adhered to it

in a way that when I, to be honest, Jane, came down south, nobody did. Really? Ready slack. Hull gets a bad rap, but it's good to hear something positive about it. Oh, and those pork and stuffing buns were delicious. So they've got those buns and they've got Philip Larkin and the House Martins and...

Well, they've got a really cracking cultural scene up there now. And I think the university is pretty dynamic too. Oh, yeah. So, yeah. Well, that's not... I only mention that in a slightly negative way because I've been to Hull myself. It's a great place. Because London Hughes mentions it in the interview

that people will hear tomorrow. You're right, yes. In not such a glowing way. Well, London Hughes is a comedian and she had a bad experience in Hull. She simply couldn't get the crowd going at all. And I think it's fair to say that she feels the same way about Hull as perhaps we might feel about Guildford.

Anyway, if it's not... Oh, God, I've said it. I've been triggering... I've triggered myself there. Right, a lovely email here from Sevda. Your interview with Rory Catherine Jones about Sunday nights reminded me of my Sunday nights in the 80s and 90s. Glenrow was a television drama series broadcast on RTE1 in Ireland between September 1983 and the May of 2001, so quite a long run of that, just over 13 years. It was shown at 8.30pm before the O'clock during school term.

To this day, people of a certain vintage refer to the dreaded Sunday night feeling of having to do homework and get clothes ready etc as a dose of the Glen Rose or awful feeling of Glen Rose etc as Sunday night rolls around again uh so I have to thank you for that it is funny isn't it I don't think it matters who you are where you are how old you are Sunday night has a feeling all of its own. And I don't actually think it matters what place you are in your life, how happy you are or not. There's just something about it that transports you back to the days when perhaps you did feel a bit nervous about the approach of the coming week.

I have nothing to be worried about as Monday comes around. In fact, I'm often looking forward to Monday, but I still feel a bit odd on Sunday nights. I'm with you on that. It's strange, isn't it? And there definitely was a cultural desert on a Sunday night, which I think now has been turned.

Because sometimes when the ITV crime dramas are good, that's where they used to pop a Vera, wasn't it? Yes. Then it can be just such a comforting way to spend an evening. Because I haven't got any energy left to do any chores. If the shirts hadn't been ironed, I'd just have to wait until Monday morning. But when there's nothing on TV on a Sunday night,

that's when I get a bit depressed. Well, I was at a low point on Sunday night because I'd made, by my standards, quite a complicated bean dish, which was simply inedible and couldn't be rescued i mean it was far far far too salty and so i went online and why eve's collapsing at that point because this is real life um i went online to find out solutions and there were many and very uh add lemon juice no but i tried it no that makes it sour and salty. And then the other one was from Martha Stewart. I know you're a big fan of hers.

Maple syrup. Had a rummage. We did have some maple syrup. No. I threw that in as well. That does make it sweet and salty. At that point, it tasted utterly disgusting. So it's had to be thrown out.

Okay. Couldn't you thin it out with maybe a little bit of yoghurt? I've done the thinning out. And it was meant to be a vegan dish, so I couldn't use yoghurt. Not even Smotely? No, I couldn't use Smotely. Well, I'm very, very sad to hear that because I had a very affectionate moment at about 10 to 2 today because I cooked a chilli, a chilli non-carne for this evening and it's been on the medium in the slow cooker all day

and I found myself actually thinking about it at about ten to two in a very affectionate way, just thinking, oh, I wonder how it is. Affectionate, bordering on. Bubbling away. A bit smug. No, not smug at all, just comforted. You're very sour. I've never actually used a slow cooker.

That's why your beans curdle. You're just sour about life. It's my attitude. I had to listen to an Archer's Omnibus. I just had to retreat into Ambridge. Where, by the way, there's an incel. I'm sorry? Yes.

I think it's rather good. They've got a plot line involved. Anyway, never mind. Yeah. Go on. No no I was just I picked up this email I've been left in the studio overnight and it's always better the next day isn't it

it comes from Amelia and it just says Waitrose Ndudja Pesto might just be what Fee is looking for as discussed on the most recent podcast that's adult pesto but maybe in all seriousness an Ndudja pesto might

save your sour dish okay I'll give that a world but I fear it is too late for that particular dish I've kept for reasons I can't fully put into words it and I've kept some of it I chucked out the majority of it but I've kept a bit I might give it to my sister this is from Angela I listened to your interview with Rory Ketton-Jones and I felt compelled to write in defence of Sing Something Simple. I have lovely memories of Sunday evenings as a girl back in the 70s,

having my weekly bath. I shared this with my dad and it was one of my favourite times of the week as we spent the whole bath time singing along to Sing Something Simple on the radio. Favourites of ours were Gilly Gilly Oss and Pfeffer and A Mouse Lived in a Windmill and K. Sarar Sarar.

Do you remember all of those? I hope it clears up soon. As an aside, my children were shocked that, one, we only had one bath a week. Well, that wasn't uncommon, was it? And two, that I bathed with my dad, something that does seem inappropriate and unacceptable now. My dad died in 2014 and I love little jolts to my memory like these, says Angela.

Well, thank you, Angela, for sharing your memories with us. It is unfortunate. I mean, the bathing once a week, I don't think it was remotely unusual back in the day. We certainly only washed our hair once every other week, I think. Very much so. Yeah, because my mum said, I said David Cassidy washed his hair every day because I'd read it in a magazine. And my mum just said, well, his hair's going to fall out. Yeah. And also that would just be considered incredibly vulgar. Yes, to want to be like David Cassidy. And as for bathing with a parent, that wasn't

unusual either. And of course, in 99% of circumstances you know it's fine isn't it I I don't know it is funny I don't know Jane yeah okay well I don't think it was that unusual no I'm sure it wasn't that unusual but I think it is unusual now I used to have a bath with my kids maybe up until they were two three three, but actually not after that. And I don't really know. I don't really know why. I don't know whether that was, you know, just I don't remember it really being a decision, but just felt like. No, I think you're right. I don't think we make this. We don't make a sudden announcement. No, but it's kind of like, oh, no, that just doesn't. It's just like it's not going to happen.

For a large period of time, you are in the bathroom with them when they're in the bath. Oh, you are so in the bathroom. And then you do. Every bloody night. Yes, then you beat a retreat. And you're right, I don't remember the last time I was there. No. But you just stop, you stop being there.

Yeah. Strange. Can we return to the subject of Russell Brand? Not for too long, actually, because we have talked about it a lot over the course of this week. And we do talk about it tomorrow again in our interview with London Hughes. But Millie has made a series of very good points

just listening to today's episode on my evening walk and audibly agreeing with a lot of your comments around the Brand scandal, particularly the email from another listener about the impossibility of considered consent when being so promiscuous. We do need to say that Russell Brand denies all the allegations against him. And it's just important to keep saying that for legal reasons apart from anything else, because we don't quite know where the case is going yet. But Millie goes on to say that I think there's another key conversation that really needs to be had about consent and when consent is and isn't possible due to a power imbalance. And she goes

on to believe that one of the reasons women come forward much later down the line can be because they've reflected on their experience and realised just how vulnerable they were. And that is something that's difficult to always recognise at the time. I hope we take this opportunity to broaden the conversation around consent and what it really means. It's not just saying yes or no. And men and women need to be more aware of that. So thank you for that, Manny, because I agree completely. And do you know what, Joan? I always remember I went back to my old university after the Me Too movement to make a series of short documentaries about it.

after the Me Too movement to make a series of short documentaries about it in the hope that things had really moved on and that the younger generation wasn't experiencing everything that the Me Too movement had really brought to light. And one of the students there said this fantastic thing, that when they all arrived at university, there was a great big pack in their rooms about how they should use the microwave, about how they should use the washing, about how they should use the

washing machine, about when laundry night was, about when freshers week started. There were all kinds of guidebooks to all kinds of things. There was not a single thing about consent. And actually one of the most important things that all the students needed to learn about first time living for most of them away from home and with members of the opposite sex or the same sex if that was what what they had chosen to do consent was just such a massive thing to actually see written down explained in quite basic words and I was so struck by that because it just it just I just hadn't thought a guidebook to that would have been handy. I'm surprised. What year was that?

I think it's changed now. And I think campuses are incredibly aware of all of these issues. But that would have been, so what, the Me Too movement, it would have been 20, probably we were back in... 13, 14. Yeah. So not hugely long ago. But I think you're right, Millie. It's just one word, but it covers a whole host of things. This is an interesting

email and it's from somebody who wants to stay anonymous. Russell Brand's first book came out when I was in my first year at uni and I genuinely was a huge fan as a 17 year old I thought he was erudite, eloquent, bold and frankly I really fancied him there was something about his overt sexuality

which attracted me back then as somebody who of course was not experienced. I wouldn't say I'd continued to be a fan of his as such, and certainly his most recent incarnation as a YouTube nonsense messiah just isn't my kind of thing. But if I'm honest, I probably did retain a certain fondness for him without examining any of it. fondness for him without examining any of it. But when the news came out at the weekend, I thought immediately, well, that would make sense. But this has left me really thinking deeply about why, when I was younger, I didn't spot any of those red flags at all. And it is the perfect example of young women falling prey to men like this. I watched that Channel 4 documentary, that was the one, The Dispatches on Saturday night, and I was genuinely shocked that I could ever have found any of his grotesque comedy funny

and why I didn't find him absolutely repulsive, as I would have seeing or hearing him for the first time now. I've thought about it and one conclusion, albeit a sad one I've come to, is that when you're young and insecure, that kind of over-the-top flirting, now I know it's harassment of course, could be exciting. When I think back at the boys and men I was attracted to in general and how they treated me, there really is a pattern. I was self-conscious about my body, so if anybody were to be pestering me or being lewd, that made me drawn to that person for some reason and I think I found it flattering because I wanted that validation from men.

Thank you to that listener because that's, she's speaking very much from the heart there. And I'm sure that period of reflection has been a bit odd. So thank you because I think we both said, didn't we, that we'd never, we are so much older that I just don't think he would have appealed to us and he didn't. No, well, I don't think he would have appealed to us. And he didn't. No, well, I don't think we really, I don't know about you,

but I just didn't watch very much of that stuff. So I wasn't watching Big Brother by then. And I certainly wasn't watching him do kind of stand up and stuff. I remember seeing him on the Jonathan Ross show. And there was just such a weird kind of chemistry between them. That's what struck me at the time but that's such a thoughtful email jane and i think spot on as well because there is something isn't there about a man noticing anything about you and especially if you feel uncomfortable about you know your own kind of

sexuality or just sexiness yeah And it does make you vulnerable. Yes, it really does. You are probably never more vulnerable than when you're riddled with self-doubt and wondering about your own place in the world, and then someone like him probably does. But to that listener, don't be hard on yourself. You've had a think, and none of this is your fault. And he was parading in front of you and you had exactly the response that

millions of others had yeah and that's why he became such a success but so good that we're all saying this now jane because you know i think it's just really helpful isn't it because it enables you to go yeah i felt like that too and I now feel a bit shit about that. Yeah. But, you know, sort of our generation, we watched Jimmy Savile and listened to him. So I heard some stories, but I didn't really pay them all that much attention. Anyway, so we've all been made fools of, and of course, in some people's cases, far worse than that.

This is from a listener who says says if you find time this week please can you send out a word of sympathy to the poor middle-aged women and men like myself who have seen our beloved loin fruit go off to spread their wings at university i've been pasting on a smile nodding about nodding about embracing a new life while it feels as though my heart has been pan fried oh can i just say I just say? They'll come back. They will come back. I'm here to tell you that I'm going home tonight. I mean, honestly, it may feel they've gone forever.

I can only speak from my own domestic circumstances. They don't appear to have done. When's reading week? Oh, it's time. She hasn't even gone back yet and she'll be home again for reading week. No, actually, I didn't expect, says this listener, to be crying in the corn nuggets section of Tesco's. I have my own vegan Vera, says our correspondent.

Or should I say had? Oh, no. Oh, you have. She's still very much your darling baby. Don't worry about it. And trust me, if you're providing corn nuggets at home, she'll be back for more. Yeah, I think sympathies, massive sympathies for the emotion.

I think we should probably try and get some emails from parents whose kids have decided to stay. I'm just going to take a four gap years. Yes, right, lovely darling. Now, shall we launch ourselves into our interview today? It was with Trini Woodall, who's written a tome actually called Fear Less, which is her kind of manual for life. But she is very keen in the interview to say it's not about rules, she's not telling everybody what to do. It's more about things that she believes that she has learnt over the years. I think when you think of Trini, you do still think of Trini and Susanna telling you what you should wear and what you shouldn't wear

and being quite gloriously inappropriate along the way. Would you ever have gone on their show? No. Oh, OK. Sorry, was I expected to say yes? Well, no. I mean, you said it how you wanted to say it and that's fine.

I'll read this instead. If you had fleeting thoughts that vary from what to wear today to have I got the right HRT going to how do I deal with grief and loss, Trini is here to help. All of this is included in this book called Fearless. But there's also a handy guide to necklines, how not to get into debt,

and whether or not statement jewellery is for you. Trini's lived quite a life herself. We know her as a fashion expert, TV presenter, and now beauty entrepreneur. And she's a woman who life has thrown quite a lot at as well. She's now at the helm of this very successful makeup empire, and a bottle of her BFF Skin Perfector sells every 30 seconds somewhere in the world. I to say that i use it i like it very much

and when they first launched another product sold every 15 seconds genius she's onto something isn't she yeah that was actually another one called miracle blur okay yeah but um it is we added it up once when we felt my goodness a lot of selling and we we found out it was that so it was quite exciting because that sometimes i need to visualize things really well to see how well they're doing and so yeah one was 15 seconds one was 30 yeah i mean you know hats off to you uh trinny because it can't be easy to launch a beauty line in this kind of climate. I mean, apart from anything else, there are just so many different products that are coming at us all the time. I think that's what I felt when I launched it. And it's one of the reasons I did, because when I was doing makeup shows in the UK,

I used to hear a lot of feedback from women of how they found things difficult uh to buy or what they suited and then i went around the world when we no longer were afraid of the months doing tv here and lots of very different countries from sort of israel to poland to india to australia to america and that same feeling of that paradox of choice and paradox choice makes us think well i just won't make a decision because i don't know what's the right decision and and that was one of the main reasons of starting Trini London is how could I help women to know what suited them? To go online and do that, too, because in a store, I know I'll go up to a big beauty counter and I'll think there's 300 lipsticks, which is my red, you know. Yeah. Is it very much aimed at people our kind of age? Yeah. Is it very much aimed at people our kind of age?

It's aimed at when I launched from the under and I aimed it really to address 35 plus as an audience. And we have all different ages who buy from us. And I think it's more an attitude which can be challenging to describe when you're trying to raise money. But I kept saying it's this attitude. It's somebody who says, I'm now a grown-up woman and I want to make the right choices for me. And we can become a grown-up woman when we're 25 or when we're 60. But you get to a stage where you just want things that work for you.

Yeah. I feel really sorry for the younger generation at the moment, Trini, just in terms of how much stuff is being chucked in their direction. You know, they are greeted 24 hours a day with these completely unrealistic images all across their social media platforms and just scrolling through some of the stuff that they're being sold with all its

ridiculous additives and ridiculous promises. It's not a great time to be alive in the beauty industry, is it? I think it's challenging. And I think that I had felt, you know, which is why I was here. But there was a time when perhaps you and I were first sold makeup in and it was always a flawless model, very airbrushed. And, you know, as I've gone down the path of life, it was still that 18-year-old selling me makeup and skincare, but I was 20, 30, 40, 50. And that's the challenge, I think,

for that generation. I think for my daughter's generation, she's 19, there are many more products. And there's a lot of very, you know, before and afters that, you know, have been doctored. And then there's a lot of filters. And I think filters is the biggest challenge, because you will compare how you feel inside with how somebody looks on the outside. And that isn't just actually, I think, my daughter's generation, because I think women I know, too, can just continuously look at other images of things that have been heavily filtered and think, my God, I don't stand up to what I'm meant to be. And I'd like to say, could we all stop filtering so much? Because it just gives people more confidence in themselves to think, I'm not just me, there's lots of me out

there. And I can find people. And so I mean, I watched some of your reels and stuff on Instagram, is there never a filter on that that is that absolutely as it's filmed that's absolutely as it's filmed and I don't love a filter and on the website we'd only do airbrushing or touching up when maybe some makeup drop when we were doing a makeup shoot but you know we show women as they are I feel it's really important to have it out there and I've been you know during Covid I was there putting you know nappies on my eyelashes trying to do eyelash tint and I will be me with nothing on today I have quite a lot of makeup on because I just did a shoot um I'll have a bright light here and that bright light might wash some things away but I'd you know be very happy to be in any light

doing things yeah so did you just say that you put nappies on your eyes yeah i i had this like i had some dog nappies in in my house and i was trying to dye my eyelashes and i couldn't find cotton wool and then i thought it was genius that i would take the dog nappy which had cotton wool in it and use that and it became an absolute disaster which was all live at the time yeah i'm so unfashionable, Trini. I didn't know dog nappies were a thing. I mean, how long have they been a part of your life? They've been a part of my life since my darling dog became very incontinent.

Oh, dear. Yeah. So either you've got a dog that hasn't been neutered yet and you want it to have its first season and you don't want blood around the house, or you have an incontinent dog and you haven't found the right mix of medication so that they they feel comfortable with their bladder okay do they keep a nappy on for long don't they just no no it's just an

overnight moment um if because i my dog loves to sleep on the bed and i don't want to change her lifestyle because she's you know she's now 91 equivalent from dog years the dog has to stay we all know that trinny the dog has to stay. We all know that, Trini. The dog has to stay. Yeah. Can we just have a name check? What is her name? Lily.

Lily. I have a teenager and I have an Alzheimer blind, deaf and incontinent 14-year-old. Okay. And they've actually got quite similar names, haven't they? Yeah. One is, no, that's my daughter is Lila. Yes. The dog is Lily.

Yes. But I have a new incumbent called Daffy, named Daffodil, after she was born in March. And she's a whiff it cross with a lurcher and she's very naughty. Oh God, I could imagine. That's a lot of energy going on there. lurcher and she's very naughty oh god i could imagine that's a lot of energy that is on there um uh trini do you think that you are currently in the best form of your life yes i do what has made it that because i'm in a place where i i talk in the book about self-belief you know we have self-confidence self this self that and I had lots of lack of self-worth when I was growing up but I feel I have a self-belief I feel

to an extent I know what I'm capable of I feel that when I set out to do something I have a chance of getting there and so that makes me feel more comfortable in my skin. I always refer to it as if I'm walking, in previous decades I'd walk and I'd feel I was maybe two feet from the ground, sometimes 20 feet from the ground, and I was going to really trip if I fell. And now I feel I'm sort of a foot from the ground. I'll have a trip, but I can get myself back up, or I could be two centimetres from the ground on a really good day. And I think that's

come with lots of experience and that's come with discovering how I tick and working to improve myself. I think some people would be surprised that you have ever been a very anxious or particularly a very shy person because we kind of assume that anybody who can leap onto television and give of themselves in that medium can't possibly be shy but you had a very tough late adolescence and early 20s which saw you in rehab I think was it by the time you were 21? Yes I went a few times, but I got sober. I got clean at 26. Right. I think that I think it's when I was about 13, I had very bad cystic acne and that affected my self-confidence. All my all my girlfriends had the most beautiful skin. And so I felt very unappealing.

And, you know, if I went out, I would be very aware if I was going on a date, what what lighting there would be, because I feel there'd be this down lighting and you'd see all these spots. So that made me feel very unconfident until I was about 30. And then I was very shy. I was the youngest of six kids. And sometimes when you're the youngest kid, you need to make, you know, make your voice heard. But there's also something which makes you be quiet amongst lots of loud siblings. So I had that mixture of bravado and chronic shyness. And I'd be the kind of person who would go to, you know, I'd originally go to a party and then sit in the loo for a bit until I felt more comfortable. And then I was sitting in the loo doing drugs to give me confidence, you know.

So until I was 26, it wasn't my favourite decade in which to live. Right. And what would your advice be to that shy, anxiety-ridden, probably girl? You know, you would have the close experience to a girl at the moment and certainly someone who looks in the mirror and doesn't like what they see. What would you say to that girl? It's very difficult because sometimes I think you have to live through things don't you because there was this some there was this uh in my school chapel there was this poem and none had written and it was talking about there always be people in life that you look up to and always look people in life you will feel aren't as much as you are and you we're always somewhere in the middle

and just remember you have this place in the middle. But I didn't listen to that advice because I was just down that rabbit hole. I think that sense of worry, you know, we can spend our life worrying. And to realize that 99% of what we worry about doesn't happen. But we spend so much time worrying and it would just be worry less, you know, live in the moment and worry a bit less I wish I heard that I think it's so it's so hard to do isn't it it's easy for us as older women to say that but we appreciate we appreciate that uh shall we lighten the load and talk about skin palettes and colors and all those kind of things because that's where your book starts I didn't even realize that I should have

put so much time into working out what mine was. Well, how do you find out? I think that you, hold on one second, sorry. I think that you find out when you start doing it how much it can help you dressing. And I think that so many people maybe are scared of colour and what to wear because they don't understand what colour suit them. And I always found that once I realised what colour suited me, it was so much easier to put clothes together, to understand what makeup I should wear. And just I wanted to simplify it. So in the book, you know, through the years, we've always had things of autumn, winter, spring, summer and people putting those scarves against you and lots of people trying to put you in a box of what you should be. So I just want to say there's, you know, when I did the algorithm for Trinidad and London, there's very cool to very warm as a tone. And people sit along that line.

And if you can figure out where you sit along that line then you can find it far easier to see your main colors that suit you and what colors go together yeah and then you wear more color and I think color is life I think lots of us can wear very black or white and be safe in that monochromatic world but I'm always drawn to people who wear color you know you're wearing a lovely blue today and I just think you know colors reveal a lot and mean a lot. And when I see somebody wearing colour, I'm drawn to get to know them better. I feel it sometimes can speak for you when you're a bit scared to speak yourself. I know exactly what you mean. And I fear the neutral palette. Actually, would you mind, mind trini just describing the gorgeous

shirt you're wearing because we can see it and people be able to watch clips on the socials but is that a metallic blue because it's gorgeous this is what i call cornflower blue this is my dad's favorite flower actually and it's my blue it's my best blue so i can wear electric blue which would wash me out i could wear a very dark indigo which would nearly be like black to me but I'd be better in a French navy because it's got a bit more color but this is a it's not a dirty color and it's just not a bright sharp color it sits in this very neutral tone so all the colors that I suit sit in this tone that they're not really bright and they're not dirty they're just clear and that's what that's what suits me so I love this and I wear this

color when I'm tired or when I've you know just feel I'm on a zoom and I want to give my best color and um it's a color that's my lucky color too I think we can have associations with colors that they make us you know that was my lucky shirt I don't know have any of that or things that you put on because you have an association that you're going to have a good day in it. Jane is wearing a kind of cornflower blue jumper today. I've got my blue top on. We don't, we never, we never discuss what we're going to wear, but increasingly, Trini, we're turning up at work wearing the same kind of piece of clothing. And if we were still having periods, we'd be having periods at the same time truly that's that's that's where we're at we've turned

into some kind of ley line connected duo voiceover describes what's happening on your iphone screen voiceover on settings so you can navigate it just by listening. Books, contacts, calendar, double tap to open. Breakfast with Anna from 10 to 11. And get on with your day. Accessibility. There's more to iPhone. Trini Woodall is our guest. Her latest book is called Fear Less.

It is a guide to style, beauty and life, and it's full of very handy tips. One that I particularly enjoyed reading, Trini, was the simple advice to just wear incredibly firm, elasticated clothes to workouts or classes because they literally just pull you in and make you feel like you've already done some of the work. It seems a silly one, but I think when we're on a journey of wanting to be strong or fit or whatever it is that motivates you to go and do exercise, we can sort of throw on our oldest raggedy t-shirt and some leggings that have seen better days. And I just think

if you treat it as if it's going to be something where you're going to feel the strength in what you're doing, if it's slightly elasticated and it's holding you and you feel that and there's lots of things like I get my things from Sweaty Betty and I feel that there's something called the power pant I love. that's been 300 times through the wash and lost everything. It's an odd one, but we need lots of reasons why we might look after ourselves with exercise. And I see that as I want to be in control of my body for as long as possible. And I write a little bit about that motivation. And, you know, I had a mum who wasn't that well, so she didn't do that.

And I noticed when she got in her 70s and stuff that it affected her. It affected her ability to have a broader life. And I do think that it's really important to have a strong body and how we can do that. You know, we were talking, sorry to interrupt, we were talking earlier about how long people are living, not routinely, but we increasingly do hear about the incredible number of people living to be over 100. In the last census in this country, it was nearly 14,000 people. And I just wonder whether there's so much emphasis on looking young, which I get completely, and staying fit, as you say, for as long as possible is hugely important. But do you think we ought to be having more tricky conversations about how we live

well for as long as possible? I mean, I'm talking into our 80s, for example. Well, sure. I had a very good friend of mine the other day saying you should, you know, Trini, you're going to be 60 and you might only have 25 good summers left. And I was horrified by that thought and the idea of thinking like that, because I think it can age you. And when I say aging, it's not the aesthetics of aging. It's the ability to have this very full life physically with your body and mentally with your brain and when we look at all these stats I think when you have a parent who's had Alzheimer's you are concerned with that sense of how can I be fully compass mentors and doing everything that I would

love to do for as long as I would like to do it I do really feel I'll live to 100. I want to feel I do that. So I look now, what am I putting inside of my body? Is my body strong? Am I stimulating my brain? Those New York Times crosswords that I try and do every day and beat every day as they get harder during the week. All those kind of things I want to do because it's not about looking younger. It's about being able when I'm 80 to have an amazing life and when I'm 90 to have an amazing life and when I'm 100 to still have a good life one of the things that we

really don't know as women is how we're going to feel in our hormone balance when we're 90 or 100 years old it's really not discussed ever I've never seen any kind of paper or article about that. And I know there are a few that there are a few now. There's a very good woman in New York called Dr. Erica Schwartz, and she is a hormone specialist. She wrote some amazing books, The Hormone Solution, a few other books. And I put two pages of her in the book of hormones through the decades, because I think people think perimenopausal and they start with that. But, you know, people start with polycystic ovaries and that can be a hormone imbalance which will affect you physically and mentally and it will go on. But she's done a lot of lectures recently on the importance of HRT or some HRT family or type of hormone treatment for longevity,

not to get through the menopause. I think the conversation has always been to get you through the menopause. The classic slightly old-fashioned GP is like, take it for a few years and then stop. But I'm presuming that most people, most women who are 90 or 100 years old at the moment probably aren't taking any form of HRT at all. I agree with you.

Yeah. I think women in their 70s are. Yeah. Do you think that you'll carry on taking? I know I'll take it till I die. Right. I know that for sure because we look now at some of the scientific papers on, you know, the scaremongering you had around HRT before of heart disease and breast cancer is now actually

doing a 360. And there's a lot of papers that are written on actually helping prevent things like that if you are on the right form of HRT. And I believe that everyone can believe their own methodology. And we all research what we lean into. And I lean into that, the philosophy of keeping up with hormone treatment. So I know that you have a testosterone injection three times a year. How does that make you feel immediately afterwards? And can you really feel a very profound difference in yourself? I lost lots of my hormones when I was 44, 45, because I had a ton of IVF and you do deplete your hormones as a result. And so my testosterone level was really,

really low. And so I do have extra testosterone and I do take oestrogen, progesterone every day and testosterone um uh gel which isn't i think in the uk prescribed with hrt you have to ask for it extra uh in america they do and i go you know i travel quite a lot to america and i get an injection when i'm there and i it just gives me an element of vitality and when we look at andropause with men, and the fact that there is that imbalance in hormones that can happen with men as well, the amount of men who I think if they'd had their hormones checked, and they had gone on testosterone, they wouldn't have thought maybe so much this is a midlife crisis, and I need, you know, to do some drastic radical things. I think hormones can account for a lot of how we feel

and we should always check them. We were talking about your interview that you did for the Saturday Times magazine in the studio. Was it last week or the week before? And this fantastic expression you'd used, Trini, about a hello from down there. Yeah. It's an expression that will never leave me now. And I'm grateful to

you for mentioning it. For people who didn't hear us have that discussion, what exactly did you mean by that? It was actually attached because it wasn't discussed in full with hormones, because I feel that when you have, you don't have that hormone supplementation, when you're losing your hormones as a woman you can feel quite shut down and so I think it's important to always feel one's sense of one's own sexuality and that's what I was saying so that was a little trite comment of hello from down there but it's that belief of women who really make an effort to think how can i actually work on this yeah i know i loved it as an expression i'm not deriding it at all i didn't know how to

say it because you know my daughter could be listening yes it's wanted to be subtle you know there's nothing more embarrassing for a child than its parent in any form to talk about sex. I agree. So let's end on necklines. I'm a bit obsessed with necklines. And there's certain things I hone in on you think, does it really bloody matter? Excuse me. But it's sort of, I think it's just from, you know, doing a lot of clothes with women and putting them in different things and seeing what necklines really help to frame you on which necklines drain you. So it's frame or drain, if I had to put it that way. And I think it's to do with the length of your neck and the squareness of your jaw and your cleavage. So in the book, I go through if you are you are you know square jaw and you have a long neck and

whatever this is a good this is your like your best neckline and it's the one place in the book I don't do rules anymore that was for when I did my old books with Susanna this is suggestions but it's one area where I do know if you look at those suggestions with necklines you'll feel this freshness around how you frame yourself that maybe had been lacking. So I think I'm passionate about the right neckline. And I'm passionate with you. It is a learning curve and I've learned from it. Trini, it's really lovely to talk to you. Thank you very much indeed in the nicest possible way. I hope your daughter hasn't been listening to this. But for women of a certain age and their partners and stuff, I think we're very grateful that you answered all of our questions.

Fearless is out now. Its author is Trini Woodall. And I do think that that phrase, hello from down below, is just a little bit of genius, actually, because it's not crude. It's not cruder than crude, but it's a little bit cheeky. Yeah, well, let's just have a period of silence and see if we can hear anything. It's not crude. It's not cruder than crude, but it's a little bit cheeky. Yeah. Well, let's just have a period of silence and see if we can hear anything. Hello. Right. I'm indebted to Antonia. I'm indebted to Antonia in Sligo in Ireland for, actually, this is really for me rather

than for Fee. It's a helpful guide to how to pronounce quassel. Thank you very much indeed, Antonia, I will certainly have a look at that. I think we better just leave it really, but we're back tomorrow anyway. well done for getting to the end of another episode of off-air with jane garvey and fee glover our times radio producer is ros Rosie Cutler and the podcast executive producer is Henry Tribe. And don't forget, there is even more of us every afternoon on Times Radio. It's Monday to Thursday, three till five. You can pop us on

when you're pottering around the house or heading out in the car on the school run or running a bank. Thank you for joining us and we hope you can join us again on Off Air very soon. Don't be so silly. Running a bank? I know ladies don't do that. A lady listener. I'm just sorry.

VoiceOver describes what's happening on your iPhone screen. VoiceOver on. Settings. So you can navigate it just by listening. Books. Contacts. Calendar. Double tap to open. Breakfast with Anna from 10 to 11. And get on with your day.

Accessibility. There's more to iPhone.