Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Uplifted by sexy dragons (with Bishop Rose Hudson-Wilkin)

Episode Date: January 23, 2025

Happy Thursday! Jane and Fi ponder the genre of romantasy, the satisfaction of doing laundry and the word 'uncouth'. Plus, Rt Revd Rose Hudson-Wilkin, Bishop of Dover, discusses her book 'The Girl from Montego Bay: The Autobiography of Britain's First Black Woman Bishop'. The next book club pick has been announced! 'Eight Months on Ghazzah Street' is by Hilary Mantel. If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiPodcast Producer: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

One of the best ways to dry them is to put the sock over the top of your hairdryer and just fire the hairdryer up. Oh look, health and safety is... A great big wind sock. No. Steam comes out of the other end. And you can do a football sock in about four or five minutes. and try numbers. What if numbers didn't behave the way we assume? The world's greatest mind. Your work is the cornerstone to all digital security. Bank accounts, defense systems, government records.

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So whether you want to travel solo, or on one of their small group tours, or with family or friends on a private tailor-made trip, you can visit wildfronteirstravel.com. On your marks, get set. Incoming from Anonymous, sending love to you both. I've just heard you read out my email and answer to your questions. Yes, my husband and I are still together after 53 years. We still have such a great connection that when my mouth opens his ears close. I love that. I'm 75 and he's 77. So this was the sex education lesson and I enquired as to what age the boys were because the younger son had asked some particularly pertinent questions about what makes you smile afterwards, where you do it and that kind of stuff. From what I can remember says our

anonymous correspondent, our boys were about 12 and 9. I did avoid some of the answers. I mean you don't really crack jokes about where you do it to a young boy. Some people probably do. Actually he could be very sweet especially when he gave me gifts and this brought a bit of a tear to my eye actually, Jane. One Mother's Day it was a squashed bar of chocolate which he had kept under his pillow so that I wouldn't find it and another time He bought me a lettuce. He said he wanted to buy me some flowers, but didn't have enough money Oh well lettuces can be beautiful. That's the bit that really started me off. He can still be outrageous such as on my 70th birthday He mocked up a picture of a child being born. Mother's legs are Kimbo He put his face on the baby. The caption was, I've loved you since the first day I saw you and posted it on Instagram.

Now you've also sent us pictures detailing you, there's a lovely, lovely picture of you and your son. You've got a similar hairstyle, similar glasses, it's a cracker, it's a cracker of a family portrait but the Instagram photograph I was really shocked by and I don't know what to say. Well you're gonna have to explain more. Well it is from, it's a POV from the mum and it is you knees raised, baby arriving in the world. And it's bold, that's all I'll say. It's a very, very bold picture. But you've clearly got a very lovely relationship with your boys,

so all hail to you, and that description of what is making your marriage work in your 70s is genius. What was it again? I open my mouth, he closes his ears. Yes, and it can work the opposite way as well. Ladies, bear that in mind. Yeah, let's celebrate ourselves just slightly. Judy says, I just want to say how much I admire Mary Robinson. I was in my early 20s, just out of college, and I knew intellectually that I could determine my own path and have a career and be as independent as I wished. Mary's election as the President of Ireland and her 1990 inauguration speech solidified that reality in my heart. And Judy just reminds us of that great line which she thinks should be up there with Martin Luther

King's I have a dream. Above all by the women of Ireland who instead of rocking the cradle have rocked the system, Mary Robinson said on that day when she was inaugurated. So yes it was great to have her on the programme and the podcast earlier this week. We've got a bonus edition coming your way tomorrow. Quite recent this tendency though isn't it? Drop something into the feed that has come off the live radio programme because we do proper big interviews on that and this week it will be your interview with Baroness Scotland. Yes, who was, in fact she still is at the moment, she's stopping this role in April,

Secretary General of the Commonwealth. It's a big old job that. It's a very big job, but before that she was a KC, she was also the first female Attorney General in the UK, she was a Labour politician but I was also the first female attorney general in the UK She was a Labour politician, but I think she now regards herself as a political. She's a she's a global pioneer I guess you could call her and she's really interesting and slightly wary of

Answering any questions about you know who because I just think at the moment Some people just think it's better to step back and see how things progress. But there is no doubt that decisions made by – I'm just not going to say his name today – will have an impact on everybody. I don't know whether you're feeling this. Sometimes you feel at the moment that any news bulletin could just be things he said and done today. And I feel very sorry for editors who are having to make decisions about I mean in Britain we've had some huge and terrible

domestic stories this week which have made headlines but globally it must be it's like I'm afraid it is like a car crash on a motorway you can't take your eyes off it you just can't. Well I think what's also a truth is that an awful lot of politicians in Europe mainland Europe continental Europe and here where we broke away from Europe are having to think what the reaction is going to be to what they say about domestic policies and domestic issues or international issues that don't affect America, just affect Europe. They're having to think what will the reaction be and

therefore how shall I phrase this and it's very weird you know that's like you know that's like you and I having this conversation but sending it up via a satellite first you know why should we have to do that why should you have to be thinking somebody from another planet needs to listen to this and we need to hear his thoughts about it first. So it is odd, but I'm also a great believer, Jane. Time will tell. That's the phrase that I'm going to use. Time will tell. Now, quite a few people, Jane, weren't entirely convinced by your cry to make me watch Call the Midwife. Anna says Call the Midwife I'm totally with V having tried for 10 years and a number

of cycles of IVF I finally got pregnant devastatingly the jubilation was short-lived as it was quickly discovered at around six weeks that I was pregnant with triplets be careful what you wish for right? We soon realized that this wasn't going to be the dream ending to our long wait for children when further scans revealed that two of our three embryos were sharing a placenta. This could pretty much only end one way and we had to make the truly awful decision on those two with the hope that the third would survive. The procedure was quick and painless, but painless

in only one way of course. Thankfully the third one thrived and we finally had a delightful and healthy baby. She's now 21 and studying for her masters. However, like Fee with her challenging birth experiences, triplets will always be a trigger for me and having thought I'd give Call the Midwife a go, it was so disappointing that the very first episode was about a triplet birth. I had to stop watching and I won't be going anywhere near it ever again. I sort of like to hear people talk about how lovely the programme is and how it makes them feel cosy etc but what I really don't like is being told I should watch it as I'd really enjoy it. Nope, I would not. Love the show, Anna. So Anna, thank you for writing to us because obviously that is a painful memory and Emily

says the same thing. Actually, I think Emily, you and I met, didn't we? In London Bridge station because Emily says it was me who pushed out the nine pound 12 ounce baby 91st centile head on the 98th centile and I was a slim size 10 prior to pregnancy. My apologies if it was somebody else who I had a hug with at London Bridge station who had also pushed out a very large baby but Emily says they can't watch Call the Midwife because actually her husband won't watch it because he was there at the birth and he finds it incredibly difficult. And I think Jane it's just one of those things. I think

it just it may well be the coziest loveliest program on earth but actually you know there are lots of programs that must have difficult kind of auras around them because of their subject matter that I think people just do best to avoid. Yeah, I mean I've had experiences which I wouldn't care to relive via the prism of drama, I've got to be honest. So I think, actually was it Marie, our regular correspondent, emailed to say did we think that program, or it's not we actually because it's me, would work as well if it was shown on any other day of the week? And I kind of with her, I don't think it would. You think it's a we actually because it's me, would work as well if it was shown on any other day of the week and I kind of with her I don't think it would. You think it's a Sunday night thing?

I think it's a Sunday night thing. I also have a particular connection or feel a connection to it because it was based originally on a memoir by a woman called Jennifer Worth who was very elderly and she came on Woman's Hour when her memoir came out and it wasn't a kind of big thing and the program picked it because they thought it would be of interest to listeners and indeed it was. And Jennifer Worth was, I think she was pretty frail and I remember her saying to me, do you know, there's talk they're going to make a television program about my book, I can't believe it. And it was a very sort of small scale operation, her memoir. And I'm just really she didn't live to see it go on television, by the way, but I'm always really, I always

see her name in the credits and I think, Oh, yeah, I met you. And I'm sorry you didn't live to see this show become a real an institution that isn't I get it isn't enjoyed by everybody but is loved by by millions. I think it's definitely one of the BBC's banker shows. Well I'm gonna form a club if you don't want to watch Call the Midwife. We'll have a series of recommendations and we can all gather on a Sunday night. The other side. At that time. Well I don't know because it's where Vera used to go isn't it on a Sunday night? Just Call the Midwife's on it. Oh I suppose yes, 8 o'clock. Yeah. And I don't really TV on a Sunday night. I

Sunday nights tend to be rather full of oh dear. I've forgotten moments which usually find me in a laundry room Pressing something or sometimes actually blow-drying sports kit with a hairdryer I don't know anybody else has had to do this on a regular basis, but But I like to think... Does it work? Oh it really works. So especially with football socks, which football socks are just, they're so extraordinary Jane. They take about seven times longer to dry than any other piece of clothing I've ever come across. But one of the best ways to dry them is to put the sock over the top of your hair dryer and just fire the hair dryer up.

Oh look, health and safety is... A great big wind sock. Steam comes out of the other end. And you can do a football sock in about four or five minutes, especially with a Dyson. I wonder whether they'd like that to form part of a new advertising campaign. Very harried mothers drying sports gear with their dryers. I think not. Actually, it's one of the things with my children, not currently resident with me,

I'm just not doing any laundry. It's really weird. Well, I can't believe that your very adult children expected you to do their laundry. Anyway, we're already on a do-it-yourself, get ready for the world. I should have. I own it. I wasn't really good at delegating. I really wasn't. Do you know what, I just don't want to send and no, I'm just gonna say this anyway, I just don't want to send a young man in particular out into the world who cannot pick up his clothes, do his own laundry and function. I just think it's, I will feel that I've failed in my job if that is the case because somebody else is gonna have to pick up all that stuff and

it may well be a woman and I just think no I don't want to do that. It's a really good point and I perversely, I suppose there was a part of me, obviously when they were at university they had to do it but for themselves at least I hope they did or should they just never wash? I mean it's not beyond the bounds of possibility. I suppose I kind of think to myself, maybe they'll get lumbered with this kind of thing in later life, so as long as I'm around, I'll do it for them, which is a completely illogical way of thinking of it. But also I find so much gentle pleasure, Jane, and sometimes joy in doing certain chores and laundry in particular,

as perverse as that may sound. And we've often said it before, the caveat is I don't have to do it all of the time. But I genuinely find some kind of solace and so I quite want my children to know that you can enjoy doing chores. Because the folding up of laundry sometimes, especially during lockdown, being able to see a dirty clothes basket through to a pile of sweet smelling folded laundry was about the only method, results, conclusion thing that I felt I could successfully do. Well I always had the drama of going for a walk by the river. Should we turn right or shall we turn left? So they were very trying times.

They weren't trying times, but sometimes I did go left. There was something about the completion of a task that was actually really, really satisfying. So I just want them to learn that. I'd just like to say I still think about that chicken burger I used to have if I turned left. Yes, that's not a chicken burger but it is. This is, I'm showing my colleague here, a photograph of a cake that was made in the image of Jo Brand. Now this has been sent

to us because some of our lovely listeners are coming to see us at the Barbican on the 8th of February. Joe Brand is going to be our special guest and it came in from Mike who's coming along and they went on the Bake Off Extra Slice and baked this cake but it didn't get shown on the TV. It didn't get shown. Well you've got a much bigger audience showing it to us. Don't worry about it. Well it's an audience of one because I've shown it to you. Yeah but I'll tell lots of people about it, Mike. Okay, Eve will put it up on the Instagram. It's incredibly good. It's very good, isn't it? I'm sad that they didn't show that. Does he detail the flavours? Oh, hang on. You read something and I'll just... Okay, this is about siestas from Rosa.

I'm compelled to write. As you mentioned, one of the great things in life, siestas. I am a great fan, I am Spanish, she says, she confesses. Siestas should be no longer than approximately 20 minutes in length to avoid going into deep sleep and to wake up refreshed and energised. I've recently started using the Navy Seal position. This is apparently used by US Navy personnel. And this involves elevating the legs on a 45 degree angle. It's best lying on the floor, carpet or mat, legs over the

settee or similar. With training it is possible to fall asleep really quickly and to wake up naturally, but do put an alarm clock on if you like. In really hot countries it might be different. When it's very hot in the middle of the day, the evenings is when people do loads of other things. In Cairo, for example, the markets are open late in the evening and their midday siestas are perhaps longer. I'm not sure what percentage of people in Spain do use this siesta method regularly but more the falls if they don't, says Rosa. OK, well thank you for that. I worry about this idea of a siesta being 20 minutes long, because I would imagine that I'd wake up groggy

rather than refreshed, but maybe I'm just not tuned to the whole idea of them. I think you might be groggy if you went a bit longer than 20 minutes, but isn't that the point of the correspondence that just 20 minutes saves you from going into deep beach? That's sufficient. I don't know how you can avoid it.

I'm more concerned about the raising your legs up. I don't think I can fall asleep with my legs above mine. Elevating the legs. Is that really what goes on in the American Navy? The village people will know all about that, won't they? Yep. The cake was made by Hetty. And Hetty and Mike are attached to each other.

We once went to a filming of Bake Off, an extra slice. Hettie made a cake to look like Joe's face, a masterpiece to be honest, but it didn't make it onto the show. I've attached a photo. I'm sure you'll be as impressed as I was. Well, that's a very nice, supportive partnership going on there.

So we approve of that. I slightly fear it might have been red velvet though, that cake. I don't like a red velvet cake. I just can't, in a blind taste test, would you be able to tell it was a red velvet cake? What's the special taste? I don't know what the colour is. What's the taste? I actually don't know. I think it's the colour that puts me off. Is it just vanilla? Is it chocolate?

I don't know. I don't know what. No idea. This is fantastic. Melania's little or not so little helpers were keeping you you anonymous but it's quite revelatory. Are you ready everybody? This is good. Strap in. Following yesterday's podcast and the reference to Melania's hat, I purposely avoided watching any television on Monday, says our correspondent, I did have the misfortune to sit next to one of her helpers in February 2023 on a flight from Singapore to Melbourne. The helper, an uncouth man of enormous proportions, I love uncouth, introduced himself to me as

Trump's representative down under and explained that in addition to ensuring Trump had continued support from Australia, he also had responsibility for sourcing all top-of-the-range expensive trainers, i.e. those who wear on your feet, for both Melania and Barron. Apparently this chap had a wide range of contacts which enabled him to ensure both Melania and young Barron were suitably trainered at all times. Our conversation didn't end there.

We moved on to me saying somewhat incredulously, you cannot seriously think that Trump will ever become President again. Of course, absolutely he will. Next time around, at the end of 2024, he responded. I laughed in his face and told him he was mad to even consider it a possibility. Who's laughing now? Despite the above conversations, my most prominent memory of Mr Helper was not his size and lack of good manners, despite having a premium economy seat. He absolutely encroached on my territory. He relished telling me at 11am,

as our flight was just departing, that he had already eaten two meals that morning and was looking forward to the airline lunch. He proceeded to belch and slobber his way through lunch and the afternoon tea-serving. It was utterly repulsive. However, the look on my face could not have been a significant deterrent as he offered to meet me in London, as he also had good contacts there, should I be in need of Melania type trainers. Quelle surprise, I declined the offer. Well well done. What an odd person to have met. But you know what, that tiny detail, which could be something, you know, out of a very well-written Armando Iannucci comedy about the world of politics, it just rings true, doesn't it?

Somebody who's employed to just go round the world telling everybody that Trump's marvelous and buying trainers. It could happen. So yes, what's your job? Well, what I have to do is this. I mean, how, how extraordinary. There are people, and this is not a direct comparison, there are people who will go and buy trainers for footballers. Oh my goodness, that's a big thing. Yeah. And I've always been slightly baffled by that. So there are people who wait for the limited edition drops and they're online or they're outside the shop and then they will rush them over and I find it just bizarre. I genuinely don't really understand the collections of unworn trainers.

No. Because... Just as I don't understand expensive handbags, in the end, what are you going to do with your unworn shoes? Well exactly, to do with your unworn shoes? Because with the unworn shoes then you can't really display them in your house like art or you know a nice bit of pottery. Do you like to come up and see my trainers? A nice trinket.

Not really. They're always in those very strange kind of big internal rooms aren't they? The dressing room areas. Yes I mean it's like you know you must have one and I certainly have a trophy room. I do. Yes. I keep everything. And we were very disappointed to be told by a person in very, very high management today that there isn't a category we can enter for the latest audio awards. They've literally just cancelled the category of people like us. Was it something we said?

Um, almost certainly. I think it's just that it shouldn't be dispiriting, but it is a bit. I don't know why I'm upset. I'm just going to have to spread the awards out on the shelf, Jay. I just need to grow up and get over it. I really do. Oh, just very briefly, I wonder if one of our correspondents can tell us what's so good about this romantic genre of fiction? Because I think you don't get it any more than I do, do you? I don't really care what's great about it. I think it's lovely that it's taken off,

but I'm not going to read about sexy dragons. No, I'm not. I'm not either. But I want to know why people we're not going to please do email if you really can make the case for it why it's just an escapist joy for you. Rebecca Yaros I think is Onyx Storm is the name of her latest novel and Laura Hackett who I think is a really good writer and sometimes appears on the Times radio show with us talking about books, wrote a really good piece that's on the Times.com at the moment, quick plug there, about the new book and why it's, why she thinks its fans are going to love it. I just, the more I read the more baffled I am, but good luck to every single one of you. But which bit needs explaining? I mean,

isn't it? I just want, I suppose. It's Harry Potter. Yeah, with sex. With sex. Yeah, but I still, I want to hear someone tell me what, what it gives them, what it adds to that. Is it because the reality of our lives at the moment is so bloody grim? But then I guess, you know, I've never got Lord of the Rings either. What is it about me that doesn't allow, I don't allow myself or whatever to go there? I just, I'm just, I'd rather read a book whatever, to go there. I just, I'm just, I'd rather read a book set in the 21st century. But everyone's got different tastes. I mean, you know, military history is a huge genre, but I wouldn't read that. I don't think, I mean, somebody can explain it to me that they love military history. I thought Robbie Millen, who's the literary editor of The Times,

really put his finger on something yesterday when he said it's the literary editor of the Times, that really put his finger on something yesterday, when he said it's the Harry Potter generation growing up. So if you… Is it that simple? Maybe it is, in which case tell us. If you loved all of those books. I mean, the sheer, apart from anything else, the sheer length of a Harry Potter book, I think, takes, took young readers to a completely different place.

Because when we read as kids seven eight nine years old our books were short weren't they so if you think of all of that and I did grow up on Enid Blyton and Nancy Drew mysteries in particular and you know there was a the format of our books was about 250 pages so the Harry Potter thing and it takes you into a different world and you've got all your fantasy characters and then you grow up a bit and you have yearnings and somebody is writing Harry Potter with yearnings for you. I don't want to sound like I know it all because I don't read that but I just think I can completely understand why it's so successful and it just makes logical sense.

People like reading about sex, Jane. Yeah, but dragons have sex in this latest book. Well, I guess you're just... I mean, if you... So you and I need to read a sex scene with dragons and see whether or not it uplifts us. Yeah. Um... Eve is... Eve is...

She gets us going, oh God, please don't. I... Please don't. The cat's just going, oh god please don't. This is going to sound completely mad, but I know that humans and dinosaurs never, they didn't coexist. I know, but I just think that you just need to embrace the fact that some people believe you don't. But it's okay. But no, what I'm really fascinated by is the, I absolutely get that humans and dinosaurs

didn't coexist, so why has the dragon dominated so much, so many myths and so many stories throughout human existence? Because it is like a dinosaur. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Isn't that weird though? How did the first, how did the first humans who didn't know that dinosaurs existed, because they didn't know, how did they start inventing dragons as part of their myths? But wouldn't... Oh, I see what you mean. OK.

So until the first archaeologists found a great big thingy. But aren't there always been great big beasts? Beasts. Yeah, but why would they like that? Huge lizards and things like that, from which you might create a dragon. Or a dinosaur. Yeah, I see where you're going with that. Do you think dinosaur sex would work as well as dragon sex? Does it have to be dragon-y? It's probably out there, Fee.

It probably is. Let's briefly go to Canada. Somebody listening will have understood what we were talking about there. I doubt it. And will explain it. Really doubt it. Take us into their fantasy land. Dino romp. Actually that could be the name of the... Yes, let's not go there. Right, Vicky is in Canada. I'm in Ontario where winter comes regularly with chilly temperatures like the wind chill of minus 24 this morning. As I await to take my husband to hospital for a colonoscopy,

we call the firm dog poops, poopsicles. It makes poop and scoop so much more pleasant at this time of year. I hope the colonoscopy went well, Vicky, and thank you very much for that. May your poopsicles continue to be frozen stiff for the time being. They really are the little wins of dog ownership in very cold winter, because the other thing is you're having to walk a dog who's very cold whilst you're very cold. Last message on motherhood, and it really will be for the moment,

of course we'll return to the topic at some stage, comes from Kate, and my apologies if it was me reading this who left the following bit out. Just have to make this point you kindly read out part of a message I sent about the drudgery of motherhood and the particular quality of mother to child love but you left out the part where I said there is a particular metabolism to this love. This particular love exchange is the one great compensation for the enormous sacrifices you make who who would do it otherwise? But the love of a precious friend, partner or other relative can be no less life-changing and or inspiring. Kate, thank you for that and my

apologies if sometimes when we are reading our emails and I don't know whether you're doing the same thing but we're almost editing as we read and it depends on timings in the podcast and Jane and I never know who's going to read what so I think sometimes I will leave things out of an email if I think you've just read an email that says something too similar but I completely understand if you're listening you're thinking what I didn't what I didn't I didn't say that we don't we never change your opinion no a. 100 million percent.

No, but sometimes the very thing that you've written in to say must be so frustrating. Yeah. If that's the very thing that gets left out. It's one of the many reasons neither of us have ever emailed a podcast. Oh I did actually. Oh did you? Yes, I emailed the rest is entertainment. I emailed their questions thing because I really wanted to know why in some TV series the roads are always wet. In Ripley the roads were always wet and it was never raining, it was never part of the plot, but all the cobbles looked like it had just rained and the Gilmore Girls is the same. It'll look like it's just rained and I don't know why. But they never answered it. Disgusting. Absolutely disgusting. Right, I'm so sorry for you that you didn't get

full satisfaction. It serves you right for emailing another podcast. Email this one. I just wanted to know. I really like their podcast. Somebody somewhere will know the answer to that question. Don't waste your time with other nonsense. Listen to this nonsense instead. I'm never going to sit back at a weekend and go, I want to listen to myself this afternoon. Oh, I don't know.

Right. Do you? No. No, I don't know. I genuinely... I don't lie. Now streaming on Apple TV Plus. You're looking for sequences in prime numbers. What if numbers didn't behave the way we assumed? The world's greatest mind. Your work is the cornerstone to all digital security.

Bank accounts, defense systems, government records. Is now the most wanted. Do you know how dangerous you've become? You understand the chaos that's coming. If we can't stop this weapon from being created, we have to control it. I want to fly back. Leo Woodall prime targets now streaming on Apple TV plus subscription required New year new me season is here and honestly, we're already over it enter Felix The healthcare company helping Canadians take a different approach to weight loss this year weight loss is more than just diet and exercise

It can be about tackling genetics hormones take a different approach to weight loss this year. Weight loss is more than just diet and exercise. It can be about tackling genetics, hormones, metabolism. Felix gets it. They connect you with licensed healthcare practitioners online who'll create a personalized treatment plan that pairs your healthy lifestyle with a little help and a little extra support. Start your visit today at felix.ca.

That's F-E-L-i-x dot c-a. Uh, right, we're about to hear from someone who definitely doesn't lie. Rose Hudson Wilkin, who has written a memoir called The Girl from Montego Bay. Now, Rose is the Bishop of Dover. She's this country's first black woman bishop. She says she doesn't want to be the next Archbishop of Canterbury, but you may feel that's a little bit of a shame after you've heard her speak. Now Rose's childhood in Jamaica was pretty tough.

She was brought up largely by an aunt who didn't exactly smother her in affection. Her father wasn't really around much and her mother beat her. She had every reason to be bitter about her loss, about her lot, I'm sorry. But Rose says that her Christian faith always sustained her, helping her through those tough early years in Jamaica and when she first got to the UK, where she first came to many people's attention as the chaplain to the Speaker of the House of Commons. I put it to Bishop Rose that she hadn't really been the luckiest child. I didn't get a lot of love, you are very right. Certainly not

within the family, not in terms of my understanding of what I do for love in terms of my own children. And what is interesting looking back, I think they loved us, but they themselves did not get a lot of love. My father, as I said in the book, they grew him and his siblings, they grew themselves up because his mother had a mental breakdown and you know they were more or less on their own. And so from our experiences, you know, we were fed, You know, we were fed, we were watered and we had clothes, you know, we were given clothes. So we ought to know that we're loved. That was enough. That was, well, from their perspective, that was enough.

I think looking back, it wasn't enough for me. And so you're looking for more. I'm looking for more. How do you break that cycle when you have had a childhood that was without a great deal of affection? How do you then go on to become someone who is a loving and considerate parent? That must be one of the hardest jobs of all. It is, but you know, what is wonderful is when your eyes are open and you're looking out on the world, you're seeing various things, you're not just cocooned in your own little world, you are willing to look outwards and you see other things. And also my faith played a huge part for me because, you know,

the people who hugged me and the people who said, well done, that for me was an expression of love. And for me, that was God's love radiated and mediated through them and and so having received that and knowing how good that feels then of course that spurs me on to ensure that for my own children and all young people who are in contact with that I express that love to them. What comes through in the book is an astonishing, from my perspective, lack of bitterness. You don't get angry with the people who were racist towards you, who frankly displayed

misogyny towards you. You keep going and actually you get your own revenge by having remarkable success and let's congratulate you for it. Why didn't you think at times, why is God being so hard on me? Because frankly that might have been where I turned. Well, it is all too easy for us to blame somebody else outside without apportioning the responsibility for that action to that person. So my father behaved badly in the sense that, you know, he may have had a difficult childhood, but somewhere along the line, you know, he didn't know and he didn't express love. I have forgiven him for that, from that context, that he didn't know any better.

You know, I wish that he had allowed himself to see and experience other things and to commit himself to doing things differently, but he didn't. And he must take responsibility for that. God cannot be responsibility for that. God cannot be blamed for that. I am grateful to God that God gave me a sense of, you know, here I am thinking, gosh, if this omnipotent God loves me, then I must be of value, I must be of worth and for me that was a sort of turning point, you know, coming in contact with a God who loves and that love is at

the heart of the gospel message as it were or the Christian faith and grabbing hold of that and not letting go. When did you come to the UK? What year was it? I came to the UK in 1979 so I was still a teenager when I came to the UK to study with the church army. So at a very early age, quite young, I felt a call to ministry but of course the the Church of England, the Anglican Church, growing up, no, you're a girl, you know, we don't do that sort of stuff. And in my heart I felt I did have this

calling. So God, I know you do that. The Church may not do that and the world may not treat women with respect, but I know you do. And so I would wait. I was 33 when the church finally said yes to women as priests, and I was ordained. Yeah. When you first come to Britain, correct me if I'm wrong, you described the country as chilly. Oh, yes. And I don't think it was just the weather, was it?

No. No, it was cold. It was... Actually, today reminds me of that first day. And I don't think it was just the weather, was it? No, no, it was cold. It was actually today reminds me of that first day. It was grey. I remember seeing smoke coming from houses. So I thought these must all be factories. So where are the houses in Jamaica? They are colourful and bright and different and everything looked all the same and monochromed and just dull.

And the people were they? Oh, equally dull. And chilly. And chilly. Yes, we're very expressive, you know, so we talk and we touch and, you know, I noticed people were sort of pulling away and I'm thinking, what's going on? I had a shower. Is this mad woman? Yeah, I had a shower. Who's this mad woman?

Yeah, I had a shower, but yeah, they thought I was crazy. As we speak now, the Church of England, of which you're a very proud member and you've been a devoted servant to this institution, it's not in a terrific place, is it? I mean, you have to acknowledge that it isn't. It isn't in a good place, but that is what isn't in a good place is the church as an institution. What is in a good place because it is God's church is the message of the good news of Jesus Christ.

And at the heart of that message is showing love and compassion and forgiveness. So if you know, when I travel around my diocese, which is Canterbury diocese, which covers all of East Kent, from Maidstone in the West going all the way to the East, what I see on the ground are people engaging in ministry, people who are looking at, you know, what are their neighbors' needs, how do we help those who are arriving on our shores and those who are living in that community, how do we care for the elderly, how do we care for the young people, you know, so I see that at work. So I'm not disillusioned because the institution isn't getting things right.

Okay, I wonder though whether you can obviously speak from your very real experience of meeting people on the ground. To those of us who take a more distant interest in the Church of England, I'm trying to be kind but it just seems a bit of a... Don't be kind, just speak your heart. Well it just seems like a busted flush. The Archbishop of Canterbury departed in, let's be honest, difficult circumstances. I don't think he should have resigned. Let me say that. Okay.

I'll be frank with you too. How could he have stayed? We are in a much better place when it comes to safeguarding than we ever were as a church. And the majority of the safeguarding practices that we follow now have been in place since Archbishop Justin's time in office. And it is particular for that reason why I don't think he should have resigned. What the safeguarding people have done is to say, actually we're in a much better place now with safeguarding, so let us look back at our historic cases,

how we handled things historically. And it's because we're in a good place that we're able to do that. But you speak from lived experience, because you say in the book that you and I'm sorry to hear this, yourself the victim of the peace. The speech that the Archbishop made in the House of Lords, I genuinely found, I thought him to be a good man and I thought the tone of that, he just got it completely wrong. He is a good man. I think in reflection, looking at that message, that speech that he gave, I think what I saw was somebody who was hurting. And I don't know whether you have friends or acquaintances or know people who are hurting.

And, you know, they stand up and they still have to give a public face and they sort of ridicule themselves and make fun of themselves you know it's it's i can't remember the name of the poem entitled we wear the mask we wear the mask that grins and lies it hides our cheeks and shades our eyes what i saw before me was someone who was broken, someone who was hurt and someone who was almost sort of glibly trying to hide behind that mask of saying I am hurting like hell. So it didn't come out right but I am not going to kick him while he is down. And you have already said you won't replace him.

Oh, absolutely not. Absolutely not. But I put it to you, Rose, that there'll be people listening who think, well, it's a damn shame that she won't, because she speaks in a way I understand, she's got energy, she's vivacious. I'd listen to her. Why can't it be you? It cannot be me. I would certainly not want my name to go forward having watched the way in which the church – I'm using the word the church – some people in the church have behaved so badly the way they have chewed up our Archbishop and just spat him out as if he was nothing.

That is so wrong. That is so... it actually, for me, it rings with what happened to Christ. You know, on the one day they are shouting, Hosanna, Hosanna, and then the following day they're shouting, crucify him, crucify him. No, I don't want to be a part of that. I am content to share the message of God's good news on the ground. I don't want to be a part of that. I am content to share the message of God's good news on the ground. I don't want to sit at board tables and meet people and I don't want to do that. But also, you know what? I hope people are not sitting thinking I think she should or she didn't. What I want people to do is to really pray in earnest as to who the Holy Spirit might make possible. Do you think the new Archbishop will have or should have a global role as head of the Church of England, the Anglican community?

The Anglican community. Or should they simply have a more domestic role which would allow that person to be female? I think that is something for us as a church to wrestle with in its history. The Archbishop of Canterbury has had a significant role in terms of the global Anglican communion. I don't think we've had that discussion yet. So I think it is something for the House of Bishops, the College of Bishops, the General Synod, the diocese up and down the country to wrestle with. You know, do we want to change the very nature of how we do things?

You know, frankly, we shouldn't say, Do we want to change the very nature of how we do things? You know, frankly, we shouldn't say, let's have a woman and then say, oh, but maybe we'd better change things so that they can exist here, since the rest of the communion won't accept them. No, I think we should have the right person for that role. Whatever the consequences. Absolutely, whatever the consequences. Can I talk to you about Donald Trump who says that God spared him. For those of us who are not particularly religious, this is something I wrestle with. Can you explain it? Can I say ditto?

Yes, you can. I was really, we'll probably move on, I was really interested in the book and I found it very touching that you sat vigil with the bodies of Margaret Thatcher and Tony Benn. Now that I think is a fantastic illustration of your apolitical nature but your respect for politicians. Would that be right? Well, it's not so much about respect for politicians. I respect all people, including the man in the street. I respect everyone and whatever their politics. I respect you as a person, as a human person, not because of the role you have, not because

you're a prime minister or you know head of this company or the president. So the fact that the Episcopal Bishop in Washington gave that sermon. Wasn't she amazing? Well I was going to ask you. I was interested and she was brave, wasn't she? Courageous, courageous woman. But Donald Trump dismissed her and said she was nasty. Now isn't that sad? Isn't it interesting? But perhaps it says more about him and his character that he would respond like that.

Would you have made that speech? Oh, absolutely, absolutely I would have made that speech. I would have been ready for that speech. But I think it was Barack Obama made his state visit and I've seen a photograph of you shaking his hand. In fact, he praised you. He was handsome. Yeah, you got on very well. But if you were

still in that role as in your, what was the chaplain to? Chaplain to the speaker of the House of Commons. You and Donald Trump is likely to pay another visit. Would you shake his hand? I would not have sought to shake hands necessarily. I think that would be true. I would not have sought out, you know, there are some people you think, oh, I must meet that person. Would you have had a dental appointment that necessitated your absence on that day? No, if it is my duty to be there, I would be there, but I wouldn't be there in a speaking capacity. to be there, I would be there, but I wouldn't be there in a speaking capacity. But, you know, if I was in a speaking capacity, I have never been afraid to speak and to speak truth to power. I have never been afraid. And that is why I'm so proud of my sister in Washington for

in Washington for allowing the Holy Spirit to give her the courage to speak truth to power. That is Rose Hudson Wilkin and I can really recommend her memoir The Girl from Montego Bay. If you'd like to contact us over the weekend, take your time, send us an email, janeandphi at times.radio. I think now springtime is upon us, we need some new shoots, new shoots poking up through the podcast. So if you'd like to introduce a new topic, something that you've never heard us talk about before, now's your chance. Be our little snow drop poking up through the poopsicles. Yes, out there in Ontario.

Now actually, as we speak, we haven't yet had the latest storm heading to the UK and Ireland so we hope you're alright through the big wind which is heading to parts of Scotland certainly Ireland and parts of the north of England tomorrow. Cheerio. Yeah, well, that's me. Cheerioy bye! Congratulations, you've staggered somehow to the end of another Off Air with Jane and Fee, thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do do it live, every day, Monday to Thursday, 2 till 4, on Times Radio. The jeopardy is off the scale, and if you listen to this, you'll understand exactly why that's the case.

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