Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Very macho for a lady-house (with Ken Follett)

Episode Date: October 2, 2025

Happy International Ken Follett Day to all those who celebrate! Jane has dusted off her medieval wench dress (and it was under a thick layer of dust), and there is a musty smell about the studio... Once the excitement dies down, Jane and Fi chat formal letter writing, being tofu-positive and house names. Plus, best-selling author Ken Follett discusses ‘Circle of Days’ - his latest novel tackling one of the world’s greatest mysteries: the building of Stonehenge. We've announced our next book club pick! 'Just Kids' is by Patti Smith. You can listen to the playlist here: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/3qIjhtS9sprg864IXC96he?si=uOzz4UYZRc2nFOP8FV_1jg&pi=BGoacntaS_uki.If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiPodcast Producer: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I want to be in that meeting that gave their name to a stapler. I know. Well, it's like all the fantastic names on caravans and mobile homes. I just can't get enough of those. The Marauder. Really? Are you sure? I'm Adam Vaughn, Environment Editor at the Times. And in Planet Hope, we meet the people tackling our biggest environmental and scientific challenges. From saving penguins in Patagonia to helping people of paralysis. to move again.

These are stories of science, courage, and hope. Follow Planet Hope, wherever you get your podcasts. Planet Hope is brought to you by the Times in paid partnership with Rolex and its perpetual Planet Initiative. to Thursday. Actually, I'll do that in a brighter voice. Welcome to Thursday.

Welcome to Thursday. Both Jane and I were out last night, separately. We're not a couple. Thank you, Eve, very much. Eva's just turned my microphone around. What would we do without you? Actually, can we just say that Eve's hair is looking divine? I think you did have a hairdressing appointment last night.

It's reminding me very much of the Timitay girl. I've forgotten about that. Yes. Let's call a Tim from now on. Well, do you remember the Timitay adverts, which I always felt, I felt very ostracized by them because as a brunette, you just weren't able

to use this magical blonde shampoo. It was only for blondes. Just as, you feel like a custard cream. Why? It's a bit custody. It's a bit custody. No, do you know what? It looks really lovely.

And have you had highlights and low lights there? I'm not sure. How many lights have you had? They have a lot of foils. Okay, well, it looks nice. You're not a custard. You're cremongles, at least. But you're right, only men could eat yorkies,

only blonde ladies could use timitay. That was how things were. And they were just wafting through wheat fields, weren't they, all the time? It just had a better time than us. Well, that's if you want to waft through a wheat field. Not everybody, I was too busy. Far too busy. Now, yes, we were both out last night,

which is why we both, just a trifle jade. I've been such a bad mood this morning. Not at all. But you were a rather... You were a rather lovely event with a friend. What does that say about yours? You went to the ballet with a friend. Do you not enjoy it?

I did enjoy it? No, I just... I feel so out of my depth talking about the ballet. Oh, come on. Treat us all then. Okay. Okay, brace yourselves. I was as it turned out my friend and I got tickets

for the opening night we didn't know we had we booked them way way back when we also had a box slightly unexpectedly so that was a bit of a treat we did really book these so long ago

I think it was in February anyway it was like water for chocolate at the opera house in London and I appreciate lots of people don't live in London can't get to London don't want to come to London which is a book by

I don't know I could hazard a guess but I'd get it wrong Would you mind looking that up? It's magical realism. It's set in Mexico and Texas. And I was just, it's so beautiful. And the costumes, I'd love to credit the people who did the costumes

because they were just fantastic. Obviously, the dancing was stupendous. What I was going to say was, if you can ever get to the Royal Opera House to see a ballet, try to do it at some point in your lifetime because you won't regret it. No, it's not cheap, but it is kind of wonderful. and carry on. Laura Esquivel.

Yes. And I'm sorry, I may have pronounced that. It was also, it was a film as well, wasn't it, like water for chocolate? But we both got a bit confused. I admit, I was kind of with you. I thought it was Hotel Chocolate. So when you said yesterday, have you read the book? And I said, oh, yes.

And then I went on the tube, by the way, home, thinking, how that would be a complicated ballet, actually, Hotel Chocolat. And it turned out it wasn't that book anyway. So I'd like about 13 minutes of time back from you, please, in my head. But anyway, if anyone can get tickets for that, then you won't regret it. It's fuel for the soul a night at the opera house. It's confusing, isn't it?

The ballets at the opera house, but that's the crazy world of the arts. What can I say? Now, what did you do? I went to, by kind invitation, of a lovely friend of mine, Emma Lawrence. I'm going to give her some free publicity here because I think she deserves it.

To the goldsmith's fair. So Emma makes jewellery. she started out making jewelry on her kitchen table and we first met when our kids were at nursery together and I remember her making her jewelry on her kitchen table because sometimes we're going to each other's houses for lunch with the kiddies and her jewellery's always been beautiful

and she has taken it just to the next level over the last, what would that be 15 years and she was invited to be one of the participants at the Goldsmith's Fair. So this is goldsmiths not as in the college goldsmiths which I think a lot of people, they blur that line. It's not that. It is the Guild of Goldsmiths in London.

So I think I've been in London now for nearly 40 years, and it just never fails to astonish me. So probably like visiting the Royal Opera House, if you can get yourself into one of these guild's headquarters, just do, because I had no idea. I've walked and cycled past it, because it's kind of on my way home but in the back of St. Paul's.

It's a huge building and sometimes they have a flag draped outside it and I've always just thought it was a big kind of might be an office block by now there'll be some financial services operating out of it. It's that kind of part of the city. It's the most, it's like a bloody stately home inside, these grand chandeliers,

this beautiful double staircase and these exquisite rooms with the bedectum bejeweled ceilings. Honestly, Jane, I mean, it was just mind-boggling. And so what a venue to then enable lots of small creative jewellery businesses to shine in it. So Emma was part of the Goldsmith's Fair, which I think has been going for as long as the guild's been going.

And it was just an astonishing insight into a world that I've never been invited into before. And her jewellery is beautiful. It's got a South American influence because she spent a bit of time there and it's really, really intricate bead work so if anybody's into that type of thing do go and have a look

she's such a fantastic woman as well I pop that out there too That's a ringing endorsement from you And we'd say that we were If you do notice a slight element of fatigue In our voices We're just incredibly busy social butterflies Well actually you got home very late

And did you do Because you were telling me this before There's an eating option available at the ballet because you've got two intervals where you can... Well, I've never done it, I've never done that. Tell the group, share with the group.

I'll share with the group. I've never done this and I'd be interested to hear from people who do do it because you're eating against the clock and I'm not entirely sure I can do this. So I went and ate before I went to the ballet. But there is an option, and I can't believe it's cheap, where you go there and you have your starter before the first act

and then between Acts 1 and 2 there's a break where you have your main dish but you have to eat that fairly smartly then you go back for the next act and you have your pudding presumably in the next interval so there are two intervals based around meals in a part of the opera house where they serve the food

and do you go and sit down or you're having this whilst standing up and also thinking I need a wee you return to your table your table is waiting for you because you've already had your starter and then you go back for your maid and then you go back for your pardon. Do you know what, that to me immediately just feels like school.

It's true to me, break time, maths, lunchtime, geography. Yes, I suppose there is, there is, yes, I hear what you're saying. It's not for me that, and I'm sure it doesn't come cheap at all, but clearly some people, I mean, I've never been there

and I go, I'll be totally honest with you, I love the spectacle, I love the magic of it all, I don't always, fee, I don't always understand what's going, going on. But it is a treat to go there. It really, really is. How, and what I was going to say was, you can tell you know, articulate. I've never seen an empty seat. It seems to be packed every single time I've ever been there. And it's a huge auditorium. Well, in fairness to logic, you were there on the opening night. Yeah, but I don't, I've never been to an opening night

before and it's always been packed. How many times have you been? Probably nine or ten Okay Well I'm sure that it is packed every night And presumably they do that thing Where they do give away Not give away They do make tickets available on the night

Which are cheaper I don't know about that But you can stand You can stand if you want to I mean it's quite a long time to stand That'd be ridiculous Well I mean just to try and compete with this I had two small mushroom Aaroncini

And a hot prawn That's really grateful At the jewellery event Yes, because it was the guild thing. They're very interesting, these guilds, aren't they? I'd like to dig into those a little bit more. They've got so much money. Well, they have because, and I might be out of my depth there,

but the school I went to was... Don't I just stop you? Never stopped me before. The school I went to was a merchant tailor school. Now, there's a big hall, merchant tailor's hall. Huge! I know. So, yeah, you're right. There's lots and lots of money,

and there's Skinners Hall? There is Skinner's Hall. Well, there are all kinds across the city, aren't they? Quite powerful. Yep, they're all older men, aren't they? Yes. And they belong to the City of London Corporation, which is quite something in itself.

And they're vaguely answerable to the Lord Mayor of London, different to the Mayor of London. Yeah, well, it does remind me we did talk about the Masons earlier this week. We've talked about the Masons before on the podcast. Now, you've made a very odd leap there. I don't know why you've done that.

I don't know either. Right. We've had so many a beautiful emails from you on the subject of condolence notes and letters haven't we? They're just lovely they're really lovely. I've got ready this extraordinary

basald and bond example is this going to tie in to the one you're about to read? Well I've just got so many and we really do want to thank you because these are heartfelt but this is from Leslie who just says I was listening to your discussion about writing a note to somebody who's been

bereaved and it struck a chord with me It really helped, 25 years ago, when my first husband also called Leslie, died of cancer. I was left with three young girls, age 9, 5 and 3. Now, my husband was a well-known and popular man in our area. He farmed and he had a plant hire business, diggers, etc. He was only 39 when he died, just a couple of months after diagnosis, so it was devastating. I had hundreds of cards and letters from people I knew well and also from people I'd never met.

They were such a huge help to me and made me so proud of him. In particular, I received a note from a man who was a labourer on a building site that my husband had worked on with his diggers. It was so heartfelt and basically told me he was heartbroken for me and my girls and how well thought of Leslie was by everyone he came across. He told me, Leslie was a good bloke. This letter in particular has always meant such a lot to me. I just didn't know this man.

I think to be thought of as a good bloke is one of the highest, accolades I would ever want for my husband. I think that's absolutely right. That's lovely. And she goes on to say about 10 years ago, I decided to sort out all the cards and letters that I'd kept. I sat beside a bonfire and looked through them all, keeping the really meaningful ones to one side and burning the others in my private memorial service. It was a happy time reminding myself of all the lovely things that were said about him. Leslie does go on to say that she has remarried to a wonderful man called Neil, who is another good bloke. He is my rock and was also widowed with three young children under similar circumstances.

We had six teenagers together at one stage, but we survived. Leslie, lovely to hear from you, and how fantastic that you found another good bloke, but also that just really, really carries the important message that these condolence letters are never, ever a waste of time. So if you have the time to send one, please please do it totally and leslie is in ladybank ladybank ladybank and we do love it we love ladybank in

the kingdom the kingdom of fife you're right the kingdom of fife just a reminder the guest is ken follet it is international ken follet day everybody welcome i am as if you said dressed as a medieval wench and fragrant it is too everybody this comes in from stephen who says I couldn't agree with you more regarding condolence letters. I was so grateful for the ones I received when my parents died and they're all safely stored in my memory box.

I make a point of always writing a proper letter to any of my friends who lose someone special, even if I didn't know the deceased. I know it was very comforting to me to know that people were thinking of me and I hope that I too can give some small crumb of comfort at a really difficult time. I find it very tough to craft something appropriate, but to me making this effort really means so much more than just a sympathy card. I know I'm old-fashioned. Well, that's how we like them, Stephen.

No need to apologise for anything in that. You might be interested to pick up a copy, and I confess I've been so intrigued by it. I've picked one up on a second-hand bookshop site. World of Books, actually. Because this has come in. Have you read all of these, Jane, it is completely and utterly wonderful.

Can I know she's going through her filing system? because I had it on the right page and then I moved here we go when I listen to those very important men talking about politics they don't have moments

like that they don't need to shuffle I tell you what's happened today I got ahead of myself this morning and I stapled my emails together and that hasn't worked for me because I would have to fold them over

instead of just spreading them around on the table it's insights like these that sent us to the top of the chart there's something about, have you got a home stapler? Of course, I've got the Rex Al Matador. Oh, have you? Dads stapler.

Oh my God, do you not listen? No. I didn't realize. So you've got the Scoda Monte Carlo. And the Rexal Matador. What a household you run, honestly. I tell you ways, it's very macho for a lady house. Matt at all.

You've got to, I want to be in that meeting that gave their name to a stapler. I know. Well, it's like all the fantastic names on. caravans and mobile homes i just can't get enough of those the marauder really are you sure back in the day you could have been one of those cddjs and driven the groper around britain anyway yeah uh whack whack oops uh here comes brony we're back with you everybody i was listening to your latest pod and the need for advice on how to write a condolence letter well I have the book with just the answer

Basild and Bonds Letters for Every Occasion Admittedly I completely forgot about this wonderful book on my bookshelf until I heard the request tonight for letter writing advice I could describe the book but the blurbs subs it up perfectly

No longer need you sit there pen poised mind blank nor fear that what you write may be incorrect Here is the book to take all of the pressure out of writing letters and the fear about And this has got dashes

Within it Saying the right thing too. I don't know why really. More than 200 modern letters specimens deal with the pretty well everything you may be called upon to write, be it social, personal business or official. Tell you what, who needs chat GPT, Basilden Bomb Red at the game? They certainly were, weren't they? Please see the attached advice on how to pen informal and formal letters of condolence

and then how to reply to a letter of condolence. And Brony has also gone on to attach some other worthy advice on letters of the heart, which are unbelievable how to complain about canteen food and objections to an environmental nuisance just cannot thank you enough for this and we need to say a very big hello to Brony's best friend Fern as well

so let's just do some reading we'll do the relevant ones first to condolence letters but then I think do you want to just choose another little tip bit to read out from one of the I particularly enjoyed canteen food is quite good canteen food, but also the letter from a man proposing marriage, I think, is very fine. And who doesn't need to turn to an automated, pre-written letter when you're proposing marriage?

Why bother to make it personal? Darling, just copy it out of a book. You must know how much I miss you and want to be. I don't say that. We're going to do the illness and death first. So look, this is it. Letter of Condolence, informal. Dearest Ruth, how very sorry I was to hear of your father. father's death on Friday. It must have been a particularly bitter blow since he seemed to be getting so much better. There is so little one can say in these circumstances, but you know that

Simon and I feel the loss almost as much as you do. I doubt that for a start. Well, I doubt a lot of this. But he was like a second father to us as well. I know that you're bound to be extremely busy for the next few days, but please may I come and help. I'm sure there's something I can do. I'll telephone you tomorrow after you've received my letter All I love, Jane and Simon. Well, look, I mean, it's a nice thing to say. I'm absolutely with the suggestion

that you just say something definitive about how you're going to help instead of the let me know if there's anything I can do kind of thing because so many people have said this before about grief. It's almost impossible for the person who's grieving to know what it is that they need

and actually just the delivery of a chicken casserole will be far, far better than something loose and wafting like that. I think I'm a little bit upset in 2025 that it's Jane who's written on behalf of Jane and Simon, but maybe Jane knew Ruth a little bit better. But that's, you know, it's not a bad thing. The letter of condolence formal, though, I'm not so sure about dear Mrs. Burrows,

and this does come from with kind as regards, George. Dear Mrs. Burroughs, I was deeply sorry to hear the news of Peter's Southern Death last Tuesday. please accept my sincerest condolences. I don't think I need to tell you how much he was respected and liked by everybody at the club. Well, you do need to, actually. Exactly. And he will be greatly missed.

If there's anything I can do to help in any way, you must not hesitate to ask. That's poor form, George, because Mrs. Burroughs isn't going to really know what to do. She probably can't identify you from all of the other Georges who her husband knew at the club. It doesn't say anything about what kind of a guy he was,

and it's quite possible you didn't actually really know him. Maybe you were just a name on the school, squash ladder. So I would say maybe we don't do that. And Wilma Burroughs then replies, according to Basilden Bond, dear Mr Redmond, thank you very much for your kind thoughts and words. It gives me great comfort to know how highly everyone thought of Peter. Well, Wilma, we know that you felt obliged to write that. I wouldn't have bothered. And I'm glad that you've only taken, you know, a moment's time to put that together. So that's all quite weird, isn't it? But this book, Brony is just

superb and now we know of its existence we are going to dig into it quite a lot. Well, shall we have a few lines? I'll do that in a moment I'll do the marriage proposal in a moment because I want you to bring in Alex who's listening in the States. She's up

at night feeding a young baby at the moment so she is indulging herself with our witterings and I'm very glad we're both glad that we're keeping you company Alex. She does say I was widowed in 2018 at the age of 34. My husband died so suddenly and was the first death in our generation. Lots of people in their 30s have lost a grandparent, but a spouse really

hit the mortality button and his funeral was absolutely packed. Now, mostly friends were wonderful, even if what they said or did was a bit clumsy. Some of the most challenging comments came from family. People who know you well don't always react with any more tact than distant acquaintances. While at sea in my grief, I found the greatest comfort in spending time with other widows, often shunning the company of friends who were busy with small children and husbands of their own. I had people compare the death of my husband to the loss of a dog, an impending divorce and moving house. Some referred to him as an ex, and some suggested I'd get over it rather than through it. I still believe, though, that saying something is better than saying

nothing, but we have a long way to go before there is literacy around death. My mum died when I was 19 and I did feel like I've been on the bereavement path before. That helped me know that it's awful. You never forget your loved one, but the cliche that life grows around the pain is true. Alex says my advice is always to just text regularly, remember anniversary dates and use their name in conversation, don't expect a reply. And this will make a lot of people laugh, I think. She says, the best comment award goes to my indomitable grandmother, now also dead. On seeing my thin frame after not eating for three months, she quipped, darling, your next husband will think you look wonderful. I took that in the spirit it was meant, and she was right in a way. I have remarried

with two kids. One is a newborn. Alex, take care of yourself and thank you. Thank you very much for that. And, yes, I'm glad you appreciate that your grandmother honestly did mean well there, although it's not very 20-25, that statement. It really is. It's quite laden with Thin is beautiful and all of that type of stuff, isn't it? But, Alex, I really love your point about how dismissive it is of somebody's grief if you immediately then try to start comparing it to something in your own life.

there's just a beat that you need to take to acknowledge that somebody's just told you about a loved one who's gone and it's really kind of um i don't know it's it's uncomfortable when people just try and immediately you know transfer it back into a i sympathise with you i completely understand it i think it's a really unhelpful thing and you're absolutely right to point it out and how lovely that you've met somebody else and I hope as Jane said that your night feeds and the exhaustion of all of that time

will pass for you quickly quite quickly, quickly enough shall we just make that gear change Why don't you propose marriage to me courtesy of the Basilden Bond useful letters book Yes, let's do this See how this goes

Okay letter from a man proposing marriage darling you must know how much he's writing from Canada by the way oh darling you must know how much I miss you and want to be with you I've told you so many times in my letters to you before and my love for you just gets stronger with each day we're apart perhaps if I were home I could say this letter but I can't put it off any longer so here it is darling what you marry me why doesn't he bring her up I'll just wait till he sees him I know I can't offer you much, and I don't even know how long I'll be stuck out here.

Blummy, it's only in Ontario. But it can't be for much longer, and the waiting will be less unbearable if I can think that the end will be the beginning of a new life with you. Darling, if this sounds clumsy and contrived, it's because it isn't easy to express feelings like this in a letter, in inverted commas. I only hope you can read between. the lines and guess just how much I really love and want you. You have dot dot dot dot all my love, Don.

Well, Don, I don't really know where to start. But I don't think when you're asking somebody to marry you, you should ask them to read between the lines. I think it really is one of those occasions, Don, where you've got a man up, mate. And you've really got to be able to express those emotions just a little bit better. Well, I tell you what, Bazel and Bond,

we're thinking of everything because on the next page there's a letter postponing an answer to a proposal of marriage. It turns out that the lady very much in Don's line of sight isn't that interested? She's Edwina in Osslewood in Kent. I don't know if that's real or not.

Don, you know that I care for you very much. I really do. Come on Edwina, get to it. But I honestly don't know whether I love you enough to marry you. Oh my God. I don't know what other of these two people. I'm actually quite upset. But I tell you what, it really It really will have been absolutely brilliant

if you were indeed called Don and you were at that address in Ontario because you would have thought, great, I'll just copy this out. Yeah. But obviously, you know, it is quite specific. So it may not have fitted the bill for everybody. It is, but also just the idea.

Sorry, but the idea that you would put a template of a really, really lackluster and below par letter in a book that somebody could copy out. So he says, if this sounds clumsy and contrived, well, don't make, you know, give them the option of not being clumsy and contrived. Why would you want to trace over that and send it, Jane? Lines like, I know I can't offer you much. Well, up your game, Don.

I mean, you know. Why have you gone to Canada? Wouldn't you find a decent job in Kent? What's wrong with you, mate? I mean, unless he's a lumberjack, there's a lot of questions there. Oh, but it just gets better and better. we won't dwell too much in this episode but we'll keep them back for later episodes

because the next one on the next page letter breaking off an engagement forward slash relationship in brackets two followed by letter breaking off an engagement forward slash relationship in brackets three and there is in brackets four as well so fun times ahead next week but these books they are an absolute treasure show

if you're out and about over the weekend and you come across one of these guides to life perhaps lurking, unloved in the back of a second-hand bookshop, spend up to 50p on buying it, no more, and then perhaps you can bring us some highlights. Well, alongside in exactly that vein, so I've ordered from World of Books, the Basildon Bond letters for every occasion,

and it gave me the opportunity as well to buy at a very reasonable price, the know-how book of detection as well, so I've snapped that up. How much was that? That was £3.90 for being in very good condition. turn you into a detective. I think so. Yeah, but I'm looking forward to that. And I was actually offered a well-read copy of the letters for every occasion for £3.90 and a well-used copy

of the letters for every occasion at £3.90. Well, that could have been Don's own copy, the one that was well-used. Well-thumbed. Yeah, they've written all sorts of letters. Anyway, Brony, thank you. That's just a piece of genius. We're very grateful. Alison in Nottingham says, I'm a bit behind with the pod due to a busy summer. What kind of excuse is that? We've all been busy. I've only just got to the episode where Jane was very negative about tofu. I'm negative about so many things. I don't know. I'm surprised that stuck. In particular, silken tofu, says Alison. Well, all I can say is try this recipe by Mirra Soda.

I mean, she's good, which she talked about on your pod a while back when you interviewed her about her book, Dinner. That's a good book, actually. It inspired me, and I was previously quite scared by silk and tofu, if that's possible, says Alison. He's got a great PS. My sister once tried LEMSit for pudding as a student. Desperate times. You can say that again. Blimey. Anyway, this is, oh dear, my nose is running and I haven't got a hanky. Why don't you use an antibacterial white? I'll have to. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it might do two things at once. That'd be good. I tell you what's in the... Don won't propose marriage to me. Silken tofu. Tofu fried rice with cavalo. I never know how to say this.

Cavalineero. That's it. Well, it's jasmine rice, vegetable stock, grape seed oil, onion, garlic, that cabbage, Chinese five spice and then one 350 gram pack of silken tofu drained with serracha. It does sound quite nice. I mean, I'm sure I need to go. I need to be more tofu positive. Alison in Nottingham I will let you know if I actually do achieve that silken tofu dream in my kitchen

can't do it this weekend I've got yet another and I love them dearly but we've got yet another five live reunion I sometimes think I spend more time reuniting with these people and you did when you were there

fantastic I tell you what we're going somewhere quite adventurous and the weather forecast is not good it's terrible do you know what in all seriousness if you're listening to us in the north and the northwest of the United Kingdom,

you've got to batten down your hatches and really take care because this is the first real storm of the autumn coming in at 80 to 100 miles an hour, isn't it? I can't remember the name of this one. Amy. Amy? That's just too bland, isn't it?

They really do need to be calling... I think they need to call storms kind of adjectives about storms. I don't really like them being people. It's supposed to be the case that if a storm has a female, name, people take them less seriously. But I thought that they alternate, you go all the way through bloke's names and then you go

all the way through female names. Or do they take it in turns? I think it's one, they do take it in terms. We're a very fair society. Well, we're not, well no, ridiculously and things like this, we even it out. So the next storm will be a bee, a bee, and it'll be a boy's name. Okay, so it'll be Brian. Storm Brian. Or but, or but. Okay, dokey, but we hope that you all stay safe That's really what we're saying I was going to say something there

And it was going to be important Is it going to be lovely darling? It was, I think it was going to be about tofu Oh, I'll come back to you Okay, so Ken Follett Lies ahead of us I didn't know why that was Do you want to bring him in now?

Why was that funny? Oh, just to say it's good occasionally to read an email that backs me up and it turns out I was right about how you end a letter thank you to Katie thank you for this Katie if you do use this message

can you shout out to my big fabulous sister no sorry my fabulous big sister oh dear shade didn't mean it got that wrong it's Emily

Katie loves you Emily right god blam me I hope that's acceptable yours sincerely is for people you know and yours faithfully is when you don't know them and don't know who you're specifically addressing because you can't be sincere if you don't know them. Katie says when I was at law school, we were taught dear sirs

and that was in 2015. They said it was because we were addressing the firm which was apparently inherently male. That's interesting, isn't it? And that was only 10 years ago. I pushed back trying to make my uni change the policy and bring us into at least. the 1990s. I explained that we could change the perspective of whole generations of lawyers

if we just changed a tiny word. I didn't have any joy. There we are. And now we just live in a world of bouncing emojis. I like this. She says, P.S. I will admit that I love responding to a male CPS lawyer who's being a bit difficult as dear madam when he's emailed dear sir to me and our almost entirely female legal team. Yes, get in there, Katie. That's how you get quiet revenge. Very sensible. You can now do all of the weird kind of AI and GIF sign-offs,

can't you, on absolutely everything. And there's a part of me that just really loves them because they do say much more than kind regards, yours faithfully, yours sincerely and all of that. I find it quite easy to end a sentence with an emoji now. That is not something. I thought I was going to feel, barely 10 years ago, Jane.

I wonder what you'll be up to a decade from now. It's interesting, isn't it? I'm fascinated by it myself. Can I just say a very big thank you? I enjoyed watching this enormously. Jackie sent in a little connection to the Guruk Outdoor Swimming Pool which offers pool time for dogs and their owners.

It's a Lido in Scotland and I watched a lovely little film at about 6.30 this morning of dog owners jumping into the water with their dogs and having a fantastic time. I think Cheltenham Nido does this as well. So there are pools embracing it around the country. I always wonder what they then have to do to make the water clean for the next swim.

I'm sure they're fully across it. And if only I could get Nancy to jump in, but actually greyhounds aren't great swimmers. They're not really built for swimming. But when I get a smaller dog, and that's only a matter of time, I would definitely, definitely, been jumping in. And things like this, I just love them.

Jane, because we live in a world where there is a lot of stuff coming at us that is deeply troubling and deeply worrying and little things like that are just worth looking at. Yeah, they really are. Thank you very much for that. Please keep in touch. It's Jane and Fee at times.orgia. And here he is. He's just Ken. He's Ken follow. He's Ken. If there's any one Ken.

Well, there's Ken Barlow. Ken Bruce. I'm thinking of a lot of Ken's now. It was my uncle Ken. Ken Follett, in my view, Ken, the greatest writer of thumping great novels. Any diligent reader can just lose themselves in. How are you? I'm very well, and thank you for that introduction. But I mean it. Fino's I mean every word. Oh, Ken.

She does. No, she does. So Jane goes on about you more than any other man in her life, and I really mean that. Ken isn't in my life. The man is utterly blameless. It's just his books are in my life. I should have put a comma in there, but I felt that the listener didn't need it. So we've declared this to be international Ken Follett Day. Welcome to it. Come on. His new book is called Circle of Days. Now, Ken, it's about Stonehenge. And Stonehenger's actually always intrigued me, but I'm afraid to say, I've never actually been. Have you been?

Oh, yes, many times now since getting involved in the book. I think I first went when I was a child about nine years old. And I think it fascinated me for about five minutes. I had an even shorter attention span then than I have now but I've been back many times since and it's the it's the questions about it that are so intriguing who built it

how did they build it and why did they build it yeah well those are all the questions Fee has been there and what did you make of it well I'm interested that you went when you were quite young because my mum used to take us we lived down in that kind of neck of the woods and she was fascinated by Stonehenge

Avebury Ring Sir and Abbas all of those kind of places and I'm so grateful to you for saying that it only kept your attention for five minutes because it allows me to confess mine was probably three and I just remember I mean back then you could just walk up to it couldn't you there was no kind of ding dong or velvet rope surrounding it or entrance fear whatever so I knew that it was important but I couldn't quite feel why so it wasn't until I think when I was much older that I realized that I can't answer those questions and that's what makes it so utterly magical. Yes. Yes and you can you used to be

able to sit on the stones and write your initials on the stones. It was very informal Jane. Some people used to chip lit bits off the stone and take them away a souvenir. So it's a good thing that it was surrounded with a fence. Right. So you've written obviously historical novels in the past. People will have read Pillars of the Earth about the construction of a fictional cathedral. And then you wrote the book about the beginning of World War III, which I read when I had COVID. That really did the job for me. It kept me distracted. But do you enjoy the contemporary stuff more than the historical work you've done? I enjoy it all, really. I just like, you know, the whole idea of having a story to tell and figuring out day by day, what's the best way to write this scene? What's the best way to tell this bit of the story? I like it all.

The history now fascinates to me. It never did at school. I was bored with history at school, but I'm fascinated by it now, and I get lots of ideas from history. But I quite like writing contemporary things as well, and never was the last contemporary one that I wrote about an international crisis

that may or may not lead to the end of the world. Keep you guessing. So you have had advice, I know, from Historic England, with this book, haven't you? Were they keen for someone to write this book about Stonehenge? Stonehenge is run by English Heritage. Right. And it is their biggest asset.

Thousands and thousands of people go there every day. Even in the winter, thousands of people go. And it's quite well organised now. Little plug from my wife, Barbara, who was Minister of Culture when the present layout was decided. It's all down to Barbara. Well, she was one of the people involved anyway. And it's a really nice layout because there's a huge car park.

There's a visitor centre with a cafe and loose and everything and then you get on a bus and go a mile or so to the monument. So actually from the monument you can't see the visitor centre. So the landscape is pristine as it was in the Stone Age, which I think everybody likes. Okay, can we try to determine when Stonehenge was finished? It took some time, didn't it? Hundreds of years? I don't, nobody really knows. No.

It was started about 2,500 BC. And in my story, it takes 25 years. But of course, I'm guessing, in fact, when it comes to the Stone Age, people are guessing almost all the time, because very little is actually known about it. Well, what I did learn from this book, and I was astonished, is that the community at the time, and you say this, and forgive me if I've got this confused,

they were allergic to cow's milk. Humans hadn't yet evolved to be able to deal with cow's milk. Is that right? Well, that's what I was told by the historians. Okay, that's really fascinating. And so we changed and we were able to adapt to consuming it in huge quantities. Well, some people change. Some people are still allergic to it.

And the change took place apparently gradually in different parts of the world. But this part of the world, where we are now, people, raised cattle from quite an early stage. So it was probably fairly early that they lost their allergy. Okay. And you talk a lot in this book about the needle, and it was genuine needle, between the differing communities. Some people were farmers and some people were herders.

They had very, very different ways of life, didn't they? Yes. Well, I figured, I mean, we don't know much about their ways of life, but I figured that how they lived, and what kind of community they had would depend on how they were making their living, as it were, how they were getting food and so on. And it seemed to me that herders

would have to own the cattle communally because there would be about 2,000 cattle on Salisbury Plain and they would be owned by a group of perhaps four or 500 people in the village. And there was no way you could keep track of what cow belong to which person because there were too many and they couldn't they couldn't brand them because they didn't have iron it's not the iron age yet and they couldn't paint on the sheep's fleece because they didn't have paint and so it seemed to me that they would have owned these things commonly

and if that was the case then maybe women would not be property most cultures throughout human history since the beginning of civilization women have been property and in many cultures still are and after all in our wedding service the the bride is often given by a man to another man so this the trace of this is still exists even in our fantastically enlightened society so i decided that farmers who have private property this is my farm these are my cows these are my goats probably women would be property in that society but in a society where property was not private property was not a big thing perhaps there would be an attitude between the sexes

that was a bit more like ours today okay well I was really struck by the relatively free and easy sexual practices that you outline in the book she's looking she's working off did you see that she suddenly sat up straight she went out last night I'm absolutely alert now carry on Well, what I learned from the book, and I appreciate a lot of what you're doing, I know you've had advice from English heritage and all the experts, but as you say yourself, you have got to sort of guess at what they were up to. Absolutely.

Because there's no written record of any of this, isn't it? There was no writing. They had not invented writing. Exactly. So people had, though, cottoned on to the idea that inbreeding was really, really bad for you. And so just describe what they did to make sure that. that frankly they were able to survive? Well, they're cattle herders and sheep and shepherds,

so they know about inbreeding. And it would be natural for them to understand about inbreeding in their own little community, with perhaps only 500 people in the village, maybe less than that. And so I thought about this and I thought, well, they must be aware of this and they must want to take precautions against it.

On the other hand, they probably have the idea the best way to raise children is for them to be raised by the two people who created them. But that's nothing to do with religion, is it? Well, it's not in my book. It isn't at all, no. It's just it's a rational decision by them.

And then to have feasts or parties, or if you want to call them, orgies, at certain times during the year, when the normal situation is different and it's a free-for-all, as it were. And you could

go to bed with anybody you like. And that seemed to me a good answer to people who wanted to create stable families and yet at the same time wanted to avoid inbreeding. But how would they stop themselves from getting pregnant on those orgy nights?

No, they wanted to. No, that's the whole point. The whole point was that if you live in a very small community. I was not expecting. Thursday afternoon at a quarter to four the seminar understanding an orgy, crack on. Explained by Ken well the point is just as they would bring boars and rams from far away to mate with their herd

to introduce what they would call new blood and we would call new DNA they've realized it's actually quite sensible for the human beings as well I see what you mean so it's an orgy that's bringing lots of people it's an orgy with a point an orgy with a point well let's Trademark rat. Right. I don't quite know where to go next. Let's talk about the climate, because you reference in the book a drought. And of course, we are often talking about our climate now. Are you making the point that we've always had severe weather of one sort or another, or is it, am I reading too much into that?

You are reading a bit too much because I don't really make points. I'm really very basic about telling a good story and I don't put messages in my book even though I mean everybody knows I have quite strong political ideas but it would be fatal for me to put that kind of message in the book because people would

well people would realise I was no longer concentrating on telling them a good story I was instead concentrating on and the thing is readers also are intelligent, well-read people. I mean, they watch the news and they read the newspapers and so. They don't need me to tell them what to think. I'm not cleverer than my readers.

I might be more imaginative, but I'm not cleverer. So I really don't think it's my role to make points like that. Now, of course, there is a drought, but then there are droughts, you know, in the Bible. There have always been occasional droughts. And these people would have been particularly vulnerable. to those periods of bad weather. I mean, people who live hand to mouth die soon in famines. And indeed, that is proved in the book.

So can I ask you where you got your names from? I was going to say the Christian names, because they're not Christian names, they're names. And there's a central character called Seft, another one called Cog, there's Annie, and then there's a priest, priestess, whose name is, is it Joya? Joyer, yeah. So where did you, did you conjure these names up? Well, of course, we don't know what people's names were in the Stone Age because nothing was written down, we have no idea.

So I just thought all I can do is make up a word that sounds as if it might be a name but actually isn't. And hence, Seft, I mean, it sounds like something. Could be a man's name. Somebody said, I should have used names like the names of indigenous Americans. like sitting bull or dances with wolves, names that tell you something about the person or the person's past, the person's history, and so on. And that would have been a nice idea.

But the suggestion came too late for me. I mean, put it in the book. Over 590 pages, it might be a little bit much to have somebody called, I don't know, sitting cosy by the fire, waiting for the kettle to boil. To have to keep writing that over nearly 600 pages would be too much, wouldn't it? Yes, have you got a thought? I have got a thought, Jane. Does your incredible success ever dull your creativity?

Well, hard to know how to respond modestly to that question. Go for the immodest one. You can just say no. No, it doesn't. No, it doesn't at all. But was it some of your kind of, it must have been some of your push in the early days. And a lot of writers do slightly yearn for the time that they felt their creativity was the gateway to the rest of of their life, so you've never felt that? No, I don't think so.

I was told, in the early days, I had an agent who said to me, your only problem as a writer is that you're not a tortured soul. And I tell that story because the kind of thing that you write, when you start out, you think I could write anything. I read a book a prize winner just in case I wanted to write that sort of novel. I now know that I would, A, wouldn't want to and B, would not be capable of writing the sort of novel that wins the Book of Price. But I didn't know it then. But you learn that to some extent the kind of fiction you write is predetermined by the things that matter to you.

The things that, if you want to write a scary scene, you think about the things that scare you. I want to write a romantic scene, you write about the things that have made you fall in love or you think about, what made me fall in love? And so although I never really write about my own life, you can't help but tell stories that have in them the dramas and so on that are in your own life. Can we ask you about your politics? You've mentioned you're known for your affiliation with the Labour Party and you've been very generous to the Labour Party over the years.

Did you watch Sir Keir Stama's speech at the conference? What did you make of it? I didn't watch it, no. But I think, and of course Barbara and I talk about this, She watched the whole thing. Right. We talk about this sort of thing. She was an MP, by the way, in case anybody's wondering.

Yes, she was a Labour Party. MP for Stephenage, which is where we live. And what we have noticed over the last week or two is suddenly positive stories about here are appearing in the newspapers. And we're not privy to what's happening in Number 10 Downing Street, but our guess is that somebody there has taken hold of their PR. I think Keir is great in many ways

one of the ways he's not great is PR and I think he's there's signs now that he's figured out or somebody has explained to him that it's one thing to have the right policies and it's a completely different thing to present them in such a way that the people

can see that they're right and I think you know I think a lot of people would say this is not just my eye A lot of people would say that that's been lacking a bit in the first year of government and that it seems to be coming back now. That's Ken Follett. He's always a great joy to talk to.

And honestly, if you want an absolute humdinger, something you can just get totally lost in, circle of days is that book. Join us next week if you can. If like a previous correspondent, you know, you're too busy to listen, we get it. We're sometimes too busy to be here. But we somehow, we make sacrifices. and we manage it. Yes, we do.

We're paid, yeah. That'll be, oh yes, shit, it's because we're paid. Anyway, look, more letters, more fun, more emails, more everything, more silk and tofu recipes. We embrace it all. Have a lovely weekend. Stay safe and we'll talk to you again soon. Congratulations. You've staggered somehow to the end of another Offair with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do do it live, every day, Monday to Thursday, 2 till 4 on Times Radio. The Jeopardy is off the scale. And if you listen to this, you'll understand exactly why that's the case.

So you can get the radio online, on DAB, or on the free Times Radio app. Offair is produced by Eve Salisbury and the... executive producer is Rosie Cutler.