Off Air... with Jane and Fi - WARNING: Danger of sarong

Episode Date: January 10, 2024

Jane's got to get back to watch Vera but before that they discuss 'wacky baccy', breakfast tables and moon landings. Plus, musician turned author Daniel Rachel chats to Jane about his book 'Too Much Too Young: The 2 Tone Records Story'. If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] Follow us on Instagram! @janeandfi Assistant Producer: Eve Salusbury Times Radio Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

VoiceOver describes what's happening on your iPhone screen. VoiceOver on. Settings. So you can navigate it just by listening. Books. Contacts. Calendar. Double tap to open. Breakfast with Anna from 10 to 11. And get on with your day. Accessibility. There's more to iPhone. Welcome to Off Air.

Welcome. Now, do you want to just pack in those nuts before we get started? Because otherwise we're going to have to put out a trigger warning for people who don't like the sound of eating. Let's just put them down. Very kind of you. You did buy a small bag of nuts today. It was a very small bag. out a trigger warning for people who don't like the sound of eating let's just put them down you did buy a small bag of nuts today it was a very small bag and actually i have made a mental note to myself to bring in a much larger tin of nuts somebody broke into my car the other night jane and rifled through absolutely everything and the only thing that they took because no valuables are stored in my car overnight the only thing they took was my

great big tin of Christmas nuts and I was really upset was it your Lamborghini it's the Skoda Skoda okay the Skoda of dreams yes you've been very loyal to that car uh well I did have my car wasn't really broken into um but I just hadn't locked it and somebody got into it broken into but I just hadn't locked it and somebody got into it smoked quite a lot of I'm going to say marijuana yes and then left didn't really do anything else didn't take anything didn't just used it as a safe Haven what do you keep in your car are you one of those people who does clean it out? I've got driving gloves. People used to have those, didn't they? Driving gloves and driving shoes.

Yes, I think the driving shoe is very important. But I think that's back in days of yore when a gentleman might have quite a racy slip-on shoe which would be very unsafe on the pedals. That's true. That must be where that comes from. Actually, I was going to mention there was a story the RAC were putting out first thing this morning. I think it was on the news as well about the glare of lights when you're driving.

It's such an important story. Well, I think it is. And I was only saying to a friend of mine the other day, and I did feel a really fully paid up member of the old Fartorati. But we were just talking about how we've both gone off driving at night. I never used to think about it. No no but i'm very glad you said that because so it's the led glare isn't it because loads and loads of cars and all new cars seem to have these led lights and because there are so many more suvs driving as well that glare will be at a different height to where the headlights used to be that's a good point yeah and i genuinely can't drive outside of a town at night full stop.

So I am one of those people with you. And I wouldn't be able to, I actually wouldn't be able to move to the countryside because I would not be able to drive at night at the moment because it's too much of a glare. But I think the RAC survey said that I think it's two thirds of over 65 year olds now won't drive at night.

Just won't. Because of the glare. But my worry is that some of them will-olds now won't drive at night. Just won't. Because of the glare. But my worry is that some of them will need, in an emergency, to drive at night. You're so right, Sister. And I think that will be very concerning for people. And there's no need to have those really, really bright lights. There isn't any need, is there? No.

Or do they just come with the car and there's nothing you can do about it? Yeah, it's one of those advances in technology that actually is not an advance. It takes us back. Well, it's been a funny old week in terms of advances and technology and how we're sort of, because of what's happened in the life of the post office Horizon IT scandal, we're just trying to sort of gather the strength to challenge some of this stuff and to say, well, it's not always right, the technology. The computer that says no might be wrong when it says no.

It should be saying yes. We need to believe in ourselves again, don't we? Yes, we need to garner the strength to challenge the technology that now effectively runs our lives. And isn't it interesting, we've just done the live radio programme. On Times Radio. On Times Radio. It's a radio station.

And you can find it on your dial if you just re-scan on your digital network. So you can get us from anywhere actually, can't you? There's a Times Radio app and it's free. So we're on between three and five and we do tech news don't we with the fantastic tech journalist Chris Stoker-Walker on a Wednesday

and all of his stories were about exactly that interface between technology and us as humans. So one of them was about Bitcoin. And people had fallen for this scam of a tweet that had said something about Bitcoin. So its value had shot up. But actually, it was a fake tweet. And to our horror, this was called a pump and dump.

Pump and dump scam. What a way to spend your days. One of them was a horrendous story about young people's exposure to pornography and what's happening because of that. And then the other one was just about this, what now seems to be quite an old-fashioned scam of deep faking a celebrity and bunging their face on an advert and loads of people falling for it.

So this is a huge scam in America featuring people like Oprah and Taylor Swift. 195 million people have viewed these scam adverts on YouTube. And it's just gone wrong, Jane, hasn't it? Just, you know, for that as a platform to allow that number of people to have watched something that you know representatives from those celebrities would have been on it like a car bonnet, you know, to get taken down, but not before 195 million people have seen it. And let's say only 30% believe that they're real. That's millions.

Well, can you do the maths on that? I can't, unfortunately. I tell you what, if you had picked 10%, I would have been straight in there. You know, I'm introduced at the breakfast table today. Even I would, which is why I didn't pick it. The subject of, you know, that most recent... Well, it's not NASA, is it? It's a private company, but they put some NASA equipment on the ship to try to get it to land on the moon.

Oh, and they took up lots of people's ashes, didn't they? And it's extremely sad. And unfortunately, things have gone, well, frankly, wrong. And it's not going to land on the moon. And I was listening to a very erudite scientist, a space scientist explaining all this. And they just say, you know, the technology simply isn't there

to land on the moon and they're going to have to put it back now this is for people, a human crew were supposed to be going to the moon I think late next year now it's been put back to late the year after, possibly even the year after that, you know you are going to wonder

where did they get the technology from in 1969? I don't know. Why could they do it then? We don't have the technology now for it. Answer me that! Yours is a breakfast table of conspiracies. So I'm imagining that your breakfast table,

you sit there in shafts of morning sunlight, perhaps with, I think, maybe not a linen tablecloth. I'm imagining you're the kind of person who might have one of those oil cloths, an easy wipe down. A wipe clean. Yeah. But are you serving a hot breakfast? Are the deviled kidneys available?

I'm not serving anything. You must be bloody joking. Does everybody sit down and have breakfast in your house? It was by pure fluke that the other residents, the student is still at home writing a very important piece of work. Very important indeed. And the cat. What I find very sweet about the cat is that when all three of us are at the table eating, she will also go to her food bowl and eat.

Oh, that's lovely. Isn't that unbelievably cute? Apparently Taylor Swift puts her cat bowl of food on the table. That's wrong. Is it? Oh, no, that can't be. That can't be right. That's quite cute. Apparently Taylor Swift puts her cat bowl of food on the table. That's wrong. Is it? Oh no, that can't be. That can't be right. That's quite cute. No, because the cats are doing cleaning, aren't they? In places that we can't reach

and they shouldn't, so you shouldn't have. You don't want to encourage them to the table. No, you don't want to encourage them at all. God, if I could do that, I'd definitely do it at the table. Not at breakfast though, Jane. Or maybe not. Just not at breakfast. Right, if anybody is sitting down to a formal hot do that i'd definitely do it at the table okay not at breakfast though maybe not just not at breakfast right if anybody is sitting down to a formal hot breakfast i'd very much like to hear from you do you know what actually when i was doing my um journalist training i am trained well after all these years now she tells me training what darling so when i was doing my jealous training and we used to have to go.

So we were sent to three different parts of the country and we were thrown in at the deep end, local radio stations. You had to stay for three months. And we really weren't paid very much money for our expenses. And that's right because, you know, licence fee payer and all that kind of stuff. But it meant that we all ended up staying in some, you know, definitely not five-star accommodation. all that kind of stuff but it meant that we all ended up staying in uh some you know definitely not five-star accommodation but all of the b&b's that i ended up staying in across the course of a

year breakfast was just the most fantastic meal because everyone who ran the b&b's that i stayed in took enormous pride that was the meal that you had when you were enjoying their hospitality and there was something really lovely about having a proper hot breakfast and taking a bit of time to eat it in the company of other people. And I've not done that in my life since. Haven't you?

That was 30 years ago. I don't know a family who sit down and actually have a breakfast meal. It really was an absolute fluke this morning, although it really did happen. But I think it would be nice, actually. What a lovely start to the day. To call children!

Breakfast! And then you can have all of that really strange egg equipment. There's no other foodstuff that has as much equipment as eggs. Yeah, no, you're right. Egg cups. Egg mandolin, if you want to slice it up. And the special horn spoon. Horn spoon? Egg cups. Egg mandolin, if you want to slice it up. And the special horned spoon. Yes.

Horned spoon? Do you want to go straight to the email from Erudite Thomas about the horned hat? Oh, no, you can do Erudite Thomas and his horned hat. I don't think I've... Actually, it's not on top of my pile. Hang on. In that case, I want to go first to the excellent Beck, who says, Dear Jane and Fee, I was once told by a teenager, or as a teenager, by someone who claimed to fancy me. And this sort of comment, Dear Jane and Fee, I was once told by a teenager, or as a teenager, by someone who

claimed to fancy me, and this sort of comment, it really takes me back because boys used to say this sort of stuff. Perhaps they still do. Who knows? I was once told as a teenager by someone who claimed to fancy me that I was quite attractive, but they wouldn't consider me pretty.

This was delivered as if it were feedback I could act upon. I just love that. What I do find, what I do find, what I do, what? I do find this funny, she says, but the feminist in me is still annoyed at this. And it was 35 years ago. And I absolutely get what she means. I really do get what she means. She still mulls that over because it's one of those comments you cannot forget. It's harsh, isn't it? But it's

real. Yes, but it's not so rude that you can just kind of dismiss it as an insult and, you know, file it in the they were a tosspot kind of box. I mean, I'm assuming that the person who said this was male but actually it isn't absolutely certain but I think we can probably assume it was. But I do love this feedback that I could act upon.

Just do something about it! Thank you for that, Bec. I did have a date once with a broadcaster. I'd say he was well-known, but actually he's really not anymore. Oh, that's so damning. But wonderful. And he came round for a drink or dinner or something. And anyway, I gave him the very, very clear sign

that nothing was going to happen and the evening had ended. And he left with, his parting shot was, well, I would have been able to live with the cats, but not with the smoking. And I just thought, how arrogant. So I've decided I don't want to see you again. I can't believe that. Like the chance of moving in with you was there. Oh my God. Yep. Isn't that extraordinary? I've never forgotten that either. I'm going to write that name. That is phenomenal.

Just to see your face, but obviously I'm not going to say it. But I think you'll know who I mean. Or if you don't know who I mean, that's even more damning. Oh, I do know who you mean. Yeah, he's an absolute arsehole. And not that attractive himself.

No, exactly. I had a very long list for him too. Right, dear Jane and Fee, two emails in a week. I'm realising I'm chancing my arm now, having waded on the topic of Marc de Champagne last week, but we really enjoyed that, Thomas, so we're always happy to hear from you. In today's podcast

regarding Napoleon and the Princess Royal, Fee asked, what is the function of those two bits sticking out of the side of that hat? Adding that she could understand a wide brimmed hat to keep the sun off. These odd hats began with a round wide brimmed hat specifically that worn by Spanish soldiers in Flanders in the 17th century. The brim was turned up in three sections, pin door laced in position to make a tricorn. The main reason for this modification was that it allowed a soldier to stand at arms without the musket barrel hitting the brim. Oh, okay. Gosh, I suppose everything does have a practical explanation.

Yeah. And Thomas goes on to say there was another accidental advantage. A broad brim was useful in sunny Spain, but less so in the rainy low countries. The tricorn hat, however, had three gutters that allowed rainwater to run off easily. If a soldier needed a visor against the sun, he could just unlace one flap. Isn't that brilliant? And then there's loads more, which is a bit too much. Too much on military hats? I never thought I'd say that. A little bit.

But no, seriously, absolutely brilliant. And thank you very much indeed. There's quite a lot of stuff about the bicorn hat, which is very complicated, actually. And that's got two different bits, cocks and fans. Yes, I thought the last thing we need is an unnecessary reference to cocks. We've already had one cock on the show with regard to Fee's reminiscence about her date. Jo says, a while back, I recommended your podcast to a very dear friend.

We caught up recently and she told me proudly that you'd read out one of her letters. I was able to tell her just as proudly that you'd read out one of mine. When I told my husband, he said, well, I don't expect Fee and Jane get many emails. Eve, how many emails do we get? Thousands? Millions. Kajillions. We get a lot. I come in a bit earlier now to work to read the emails. I know. What's happened? I don't have a firework. Oh look, it's fireworks. Oh it's not any fireworks, we don't need to worry. It seems a bit close to buildings.

Right, well, there's an impromptu firework display going on on the other side of the tent. All right, firework monitor. Do you want to go and check? Was that your role at school? Were you ever a monitor? Oh, was I a monitor? No, I was head of house.

It was the day girl house at a boarding school. Day girl house. Yeah. It was called house yeah it's called kea gwent why i don't know gare gwent kea gwent must have been a reason well it was a welsh reason and i didn't pursue it yeah but you weren't at school in wales no i was at school in hampshire somebody will be able to tell me okay well it Well, were you elected to that position? No, you were just appointed. Gosh, what a thrill. Yeah.

I think it was, genuinely, I think it was an attempt to kind of say, actually, you could pull your socks up a little bit, love, and then you might benefit from that. Were you? No. You must have been a monitor of something. No, no, I wasn't. Is that why your blue tit thing comes up a lot?

Patrol leader of the blue tits. It doesn't come up a lot, V. I mean, well, every now and again I draw attention to my success as the patrol leader of the blue tits in the Girl Guides. I don't know if anybody from the Girl Guide community knows whether they still have a patrol called the blue tits. I would like to hear. I suspect they don't.

It's very sad, isn't it? We move in, in some ways, more sophisticated, but less pleasant times. Yeah, not so much fun. Not so much fun. There was also a titty in Swallows and Amazons, wasn't there? Which, to be honest, even in the 70s, I struggled a bit with that.

Alison says, Some time ago on your podcast, you made reference to a fluffer. Perhaps something to do with one of your cats or Nancy I can't remember but it did make me laugh a fluffer in the porn industry is a person who is available to help out if the male in the scene is flagging the fluffer comes in to perk things up for him quite an important person on the set which I I can imagine. In case you're wondering, I don't know this because I worked in porn, but because when I lived in San Francisco I had tea sometimes

with my neighbour Annie Sprinkle, a well-known porn star. It's a great name. It is. Alison, thank you for that. It is a great name and we are talking next week about pornography and we've talked, I've already recorded an interview with a so-called, I think we have to be careful with the phrasing of this,

a so-called ethical and feminist porn maker. And I know people take issue with that and say, well, but she is. It's like a special woman's voice. Well, people do take issue with it, don't they? And I think for all, we can be moralistic about this, but I think we have to accept, I mean, it wouldn't be wrong issue with it, don't they? And I think, for all, we can be moralistic about this, but we have to accept, I mean, it wouldn't be wrong, would it, to say that the majority of British adults have used or do use pornography?

Yes. Or is that wrong? Or have come across it. No, I'm sure, and we'll furnish ourselves with detailed statistics ahead of next week where we're going to talk about the whole issue. But its prevalence is enormous. Yeah, yeah. And to pretend otherwise, it's just ridiculous.

Isn't it just? This comes from Best Wishes Liz in Walthamstow. Dear Jane and Fee and the whole Off-Air team, that's a nice start, Liz. I wanted to get in touch about your listener who was so disappointed to find that the guy she was considering seeing was sharing social posts from those idiots Brand and Tate. What a horrible situation for her to be in. She is right to listen to her instincts and steer clear.

After all, Russell Brand only has a career because of the mainstream media he now wangs on about. And you're absolutely right there, Liz. I'm 47 and really hope there are plenty of younger men who are not swayed by such nonsense. I've been with my husband for nearly 15 years. While he drives me mad in many ways, he's lovely and absolutely a feminist. He gets apoplectic with rage about the song Blurred Lines, for example.

A wise friend of mine says women end up with the men they think they're worth. I'm going to say that again because I think that's just superb. Put that on a badge. A wise friend of mine says women end up with the men they think they're worth. None of us are perfect, but our listener deserves a gem, not someone she will end up making excuses for. And do you know what, Liz? Massive tick for that first sentence, massive tick for the second,

because you don't want to walk through life making excuses for somebody else's behaviour. And I think an awful lot of one half of a couple ends up having to do that. And Pippa was the original correspondent. And she says, hello, both. Thanks indeed for reading out my email. I'm glad you're also on the same page as me. And I just wanted to clarify that as soon as I read his message, I did know I wouldn't really want to pursue things any further with him. The conflict I was feeling was more about the uncomfortable feeling of getting along with someone,

but trying to square that with views they hold, especially if that comes from the different bubbles of information you're both exposed to. We definitely live in different bubbles, one being he's a scouser and I'm from London. Well, Pippa, it would never work. That combination is very difficult. It's very, very, very difficult. Yes, people from Liverpool can be very difficult indeed. Some of them have mood swings and opinions. And honestly, they're off the scale sometimes. They're also...

Hearts of gold? Hearts of gold. I don't know what it was. I don't know, was it Norfolk? It was very hard to place. Hearts of gold. Best sense of humour in the world. Super generous.

Well, after a fashion. Oh, do we dare do the Simon Le Bon story? Well, you know, I don't know. I think we probably can, but I just want to briefly mention Alison, who actually was listening to the Times radio show and heard my story about the horrendous outfit I wore on the night of the opening ceremony at the London Olympics. Just refresh people's memory.

Well, I hosted a small soiree at my home in East West Kensington, invited in neighbours and neighbours and friends and laid on a spread. I don't think I've done it since, by the way. This makes me sound like a really lovely person. It was 13 years ago. I haven't done a single thing since. Anyway, it was a good night. And as you'll know, the mood in the country before the ceremony

was a little bit six out of ten, we're not bothered. It'll never work. It'll never take off. It will be. It will be. But it turned out to be some of the best times of any of our lives. Anyway, I came downstairs just before the soiree erupted, wearing my chosen patriotic outfit, which was a London Olympics official T-shirt and some, I'm going to say it, Primark Union Jack leggings,

made in China. I descended the stairs and my nine-year-old daughter at the time burst into tears and said, Mummy, you'll just be laughed at. You can't wear that. And I pointed out it was a night of national celebration. And as a national trinket myself at that stage, working as I did for Radio 4, it would be entirely in keeping with the event that I wore this garb.

And indeed, many people complimented me, possibly because they were eating my free food and drinking my booze. But anyway. Do you think you've got a picture somewhere? No, fortunately, I haven't. You've always got that picture of me nine and a half months pregnant to hang on to you don't need to see anymore oh my eyes know my eyes anyway alison says um i did like hearing about your daughter crying about your olympics outfit it reminded me of a similar incident burns night is big in scotland it certainly is you eat haggis you drink whiskey and you toast the poet Robert Burns.

There are speeches and the famous address to the haggis before you eat it, which usually ends up with a knife being thrust into it. One year, my husband was asked by his local climbing club to do the address to the haggis at the club's Burns Night in a mountain bothy. I bet that was good. He agreed he'd been practising, but he wanted to do a run-through before he left. So he had a burnt supper the night before at home. And when he started the address in a shouty voice and waving a knife, our then eight-year-old son burst into tears and had a look of absolute terror.

Only one verse was recited. Our son did recover. He had a large iron brew. But I often wonder if it influenced his later decision to become a vegetarian. It may well have done, Alison. Burns Night is a huge thing in Scotland for reasons I simply do not understand. It was also celebrated vigorously at the University of Birmingham in our Hall of Residence. We had an annual dinner.

I think it's an excuse in every single university. Is it? Because there's the carrying in and the lighting. Yeah, we did all that. Yeah. Yeah. It was a thing, isn't it? It was some distance from the border.

I can recommend a vegetarian haggis is a wonderful thing. Is it? It's just lovely, spicy, peppery bread, basically. It's good. It's good. I also have a Simon Le lebon in st lucia story says all the best kate i grew up on a boat and my pre-teen years were spent cruising the caribbean with my parents and older sister we were on a shoestring budget so my parents would do odd

jobs along the way to replenish the cruising kitty my mum used to sew up courtesy flags the small flag of the country you're visiting as a courtesy for allowing boats to enter their waters. And my dad did boaty mechanical jobs, anchored at the Pitons, a famous natural land park in St Lucia. I didn't know that. But in order to sort of park up, you need to have the appropriate flag. Neither did I. No, gosh, thank you. That's interesting. We pulled up alongside and my parents, sorry, we dingied over to a beautiful sailboat to chat up the occupants as potential customers.

We pulled up alongside and my parents were delighted to see Simon Le Bon, who was on board his yacht with his family. I was about nine years old at the time and totally unfazed by the rock star before me. But being smaller than the rest of the family, my eyeline, as I looked up to the man sitting on deck, unfortunately didn't meet his face, but landed more in line with his mid-region.

The Duran Duran frontman, obviously embracing the island style, was dressed in only a sarong. So when I looked up, I had a full view of his ordinary world. Thanks for your podcast. It keeps me entertained. During the lots and lots of hours i spend driving

two teenage boys around their various activities you have all my sympathy and all my love for doing that kate keep up the brilliant work uh thank you for that a sarong can be dangerous can't it well um do you think i mean we're talking last week weren't we to a young man who wears wears a skirt very proudly yeah just because he likes it. And, you know, there is a wonderful freedom on a lovely sunny day, a warm day, wearing a skirt. But the sarong, I've only ever seen David Beckham in a sarong. I'm trying to think of another man who's,

and it works on the young David Beckham, it looked amazing. Is it something, a sarong, that could translate to not a day of five Celsius in the city of London really? No, but no. My dad used to put a sarong on when he got home from work when we lived in the abroad. Well yes but that's slightly different. Yeah because he'd come in you know a sweaty wreck and they'd go and have a shower and put on a sarong. Really? Yeah. I can't imagine my dad coming in from a day Clarking the dock board But we weren't

We weren't in Northern Liverpool No That's just an amazing slice of life I must tell my dad that Come on Ray I'm going this weekend I'll take it my sarong.

VoiceOver describes what's happening on your iPhone screen. VoiceOver on. Settings. So you can navigate it just by listening. Books. Contacts. Calendar. Double tap to open.

Breakfast with Anna from 10 to 11. And get on with your day. Accessibility. There's more to iphone now um i am i mean i'm a big fan of music i'm not i think i went through an anarchy stage of being as a teenager i was properly anarchy i mean i had you know colored vinyl i bought all the music magazines i wanted to work in a music magazine. It never really worked out for me. But when you meet a proper anorak, as I did today, but in a glorious way, you realise that actually...

No, you were just a gilet. I really was. I was barely even that. Whereas Daniel Rachel is the author of a book which honestly will be, I think, the definitive history of the British musical movement Two Tone. And the book he's written is called Too Much Too Young, which is the title, of course, of that phenomenal hit song by The Specials. Now, unfortunately, we can't play music on a podcast.

Why can't we? Because we don't have the publishing rights. We don't. But we did play some of this great music on Times Radio earlier when we talked to Daniel there. So there were some great British bands involved in the two-tone movement, the likes of The Selector, The Beat, The Body Snatchers, Madness, of course.

Their first single was on the two-tone label before they went over to Stiff Records. So the thong, I'm thinking of the thong, the song that we played before we put out the interview with Daniel on the radio show was Ghost Town by The Specials, which I think really does bring back the early 1980s to all of us who were around at the time. And actually, particularly the year of the summer of the riots. It was the Royal Wedding and the riots across England the summer of 1981. And pretty much unforgettable for those of us

who were around and paying attention but Fee was you were still very young weren't you so you would only be well no I do remember it but I didn't so I I don't think I really started buying records no until after so in 1981 I've been 11 no No, okay. So I didn't have this in my record collection at all. And actually, I only really know Two Tone because of its incredible longevity. So we were still playing the specials, particularly Ghost Town.

It was definitely on the kind of GLR top 100 list of tunes, and that would have been in the late 1990s and there's just something so good about two-tone music that it does stand the test of time it really does and it's actually very sad that terry hall the lead vocalist of the specials died uh the winter yeah last winter in fact and he was a really beautiful man he was a very sad life actually yeah um yes he had lovely eyes um but yeah he had all sorts of issues and he'd been through some rotten experiences as a schoolboy. Anyway, Daniel Rachel has written the history of the two-tone movement

in his book Too Much Too Young, and here he is responding to my question about how old he was back in that ghost town summer of 1981. I was a schoolboy at secondary school and I think that song hit like so many of two-tone songs did because it gets you with a great melody and a great beat. But once you get into the lyricism of it, it's telling and reflecting what's happening literally outside the window.

So for you, as you were just saying, five miles away in Toxteth and for me in Birmingham, and it had a tremendous impact, that song. It's at number one at the time when the rights spread across the whole country and really encapsulated two years of a record label and a selection of bands that had been offering that kind of, not perhaps resistance, but reflection on where society was at. So was Ghost Town by the Specials, was that peak two-tone for you, for everybody?

Yes and no. I mean, it's certainly the end of the first phase, the phase of number ones, phase the phase of number one's great hits the seemingly a young nation dressing in black and white but it there but it does have a second incarnation and perhaps listeners will know that best through the song nelson mandela which obviously culminates in the wembley concerts and nelson mandela on stage when the world's pop glitterati had just sung the song Free Nelson Mandela. Free Nelson Mandela, yeah, which was another of those moments. You've given me another great memory there. So let's go back. Let's actually talk about, first of all, the significance of the city of Coventry in all this. What was so special about Coventry? Special because of the specials. But I think, I mean,

I start the book talking about the bombing of Coventry. And the reason being that it was a city in need of help. And that help came from the car industry. And then that collapsed in the late 60s, early 70s. And again, the city needed help. And this time it came from music and from two-tone, particularly from the specials from The Selector. And Jerry Dammers, who formed the specials and created two-tone records, wanted a production line like that of Motown, Detroit, the car city. It's a great ambition. Yeah, and a successful one that was realised.

And instead of cars that all looked the same, he wanted an identifiable sound in the music, and he achieved that, and it's quite incredible, really, because Jerry wanted pop fame, but he wanted it with other bands too. So he found Madness, found The Beat, The Selector, The Body Snatchers, and other groups, and it became a movement.

And that was quite unheard of, really, I'd say, in pop music. Let's talk about Jerry Dammers because there's always a romantic, I don't know, a romantic yearning for a belief that this was all about the working class. But actually, Jerry Dammers was an impeccable middle-class boy, wasn't he? Yeah, grammar school, parents of the church, and many musicians within two-tone were of a certain class or educated. And I think that's really important, you know,

because two-tone addresses class, it addresses gender, it addresses race, and it's often assumed that the audience was, and he's often written about, a working class movement. Well, I don't remember, you know, somebody with a clipboard at a Madness gig saying, now, are you middle class? Are you working class? You know, there's no way of telling really. You know, obviously it did appeal to working class people, but it appealed to, I'd say, people of all hues and races and colours.

Yeah, that was what was so significant about it because there, for the first time, on Top of the Pops, for me, anyway, in my mind, I was 14 in 1979, you got black people and white people in the same bands. Yes. And that felt, to me, hugely significant. And it's incredible because today, that may sound strange to a younger listener.

And of course, black and white had been in the same band before. You know, you think of Sly and the Family Stone or you can come, you know, Hot Chocolate even. But it wasn't a political statement or a significant one in the way that the selector and the specials were doing it and the beat where they were saying in the after after we'd had rock against racism they were saying let's now bring come together in a band and make the statement visually um and we'll also do musically where the influences of different cultures cultures excuse me were coming together and and providing a new style of music, which was two-turn. And that was amazing. And I think maybe kids like you and I, Jane, who put posters of these people on the wall.

I mean, I'm a little bit younger, and I realise now that my education was hitting me visually, that I thought nothing of having a black woman on my wall surrounded by black men or a mixed group like The Beat with equal white and equal black people. And in later years, I thought, that's amazing, because I was being taught that that was what was good and right and exciting. Because I suppose we do need to remind people that the National Front were a thing at the time.

Skinheads, football violence, which has never really gone away, but was certainly prevalent back then. These were quite troubled times, weren't they? Yeah, more than a thing. I mean, these were neo-Nazis on the streets of Britain who were trying to appeal to a young generation to say that you can find your identity as a fascist. And they literally were saying that.

And Two-Tone offered a choice to that. You can either go with the neo-Nazis or you can come with us where we will give you a good time musically, but also try and educate you with our lyricism. And thankfully, I think a whole swathe of youth and a generation turned to anti-racism and saw that as cool. But I think it's as important that gender was included in that. If you think of the song The Boiler, which the Body Snatchers used to perform,

here is seven women in a band and they're talking about male violence which ends in a rape and on the last minute of the recorded song Rhoda Dacker screams and she screams the pain of what rape means that song charted on two-tone which is quite incredible and it spoke to people like me and for the first time I was understanding what rape meant and that that's not something I was learning in my classroom no oh it absolutely wouldn't have been uh what about Pauline Black from The Selector she was another a pivotal a female figure yeah and really on when the two-tone tour went out for the first time when the special selector of madness went on a coach and toured the country she was the only

woman amongst 40 men she would she probably would have been and and the minor i imagine a minority of women watching from the audience now that just to do that enables incredible bravery and i think pauline has that had that and has that tenfold because she fronted the band and did it with an incredible energy and powerful vocal that brought that music, songs like On My Radio, Too Much Pressure, into the top echelons of the charts. And you watch the footage now and she's stunning to watch. What about madness? a madness have never stopped

have they i mean they're still rolling now i've actually in all honesty until i went to your book i'd forgotten that they were a part of this at the start yeah and it's incredible because because jerry dammers had said to the record label if you sign the specials you sign this idea of two-tone i will bring you bands who will the bands be no idea then he finds madness here in in london jerry's from coventry and madness of playing a similar style of music dressing in a similar jamaican 60s influence of clothing yeah we should say really smart clothing that was important because you know when you used to watch top of the pops and your mum and dad would be in the room and they disapprove of everybody but you couldn't disapprove of the two-tone bands because they just were so well turned out yeah so dapper weren't they yeah

exactly so and yeah and and and also you could emulate that as a school kid because it wasn't far from your school uniform was it you know black trousers white shirts and if you just put some badges of madness and the specials over them on your bla, then you're all away. But yeah, madness. I mean, they did one song with Two Tone, The Prince, and then as Two Tone allowed them, they were then free to go off and find their own careers, which they did with Stiff Records and became the most successful singles band of the 80s, but never stopped really addressing the issues

which were at the heart of Two Tone. And they're still you know they ended up playing on the queen's roof you know and the olympic opening ceremony absolutely at the heart of the establishment doesn't it doesn't get more establishment than that and why not because it's because it's saying that culture and music plays an important part of our lives it point and and ultimately to the economy i guess you know and and and it's often scoffed at i think pop music and and 210 proved that it it plays a greater role than just something you could dance to which shouldn't be overlooked in its in and of itself i know you've called the book too much too

young which is the special song um i mean i love the lines in that are they are they're really pointed aren't they you've done too much much too young you're married with a kid when you should be having fun with me um i mean the before that had anyone addressed things like getting pregnant when you didn't you were far too young to deal with the responsibility well i think there were there were hinted suggestions at it but it was it was a great challenge wasn't it in that lyricism and and i have to say that within there were detractors as well there's various people within two-tone who who thought

it was misogynistic and i wasn't afraid to address that within the book because i think one of the brilliant things about two-tone is it's contradictory you know you mentioned the class differences there's contradiction all the way through that the bands were struggling to exist within themselves with the different cultures that were trying to come together, men and women trying to play together. And I think ultimately it's for the listener to decide if a song like Too Much Too Young speaks to them.

And in many ways it's advocating that a woman, her destiny coming out of education is not to just be married and have kids it's to do something more with your life but perhaps it isn't a male to tell them i don't know you know do you know i'd never i'll never listen to that again in the same way it's just a load of mansplaining right it's also a brilliant song let's not lose sight of that no we, we should never lose sight of that. Daniel Rachel, author of Too Much Too Young. And actually, Daniel really is of the belief that Too Much Too Young was written for a woman, or at least

he is aware of the controversy from women objecting to what they believe was the mansplaining, misogynist tone of the lyrics to that song. But I don't think, I've listened again, it's actually written to a male friend, isn't it? And we had a verification of that on the radio programme today. Because our listeners never lie.

They never lie. And Claire texted in to say that she had known a friend who had known Terry Hall and knew that one of Terry Hall's friends had got his girlfriend pregnant and that Terry Hall had written this song about him because he'd lost his mate to fatherhood. To domesticity and fatherhood, yeah.

Brilliant, absolutely brilliant anecdote. Yeah, it is. It is a great anecdote. Thank you for doing that. I do love it when you put something out that somebody can explain or can just bring to life. It's absolutely fantastic. It's almost like it's worth doing live radio

as well as a podcast. But of course it's worth doing a podcast because you're all amazing. Now, what is the Book Club book? Well, because it's now nearly midnight and we have to go. I keep on promising people that tomorrow we're going to unveil it, but I've been told strictly. Oh, it's got to be tomorrow. Yes, by the production honcho, Rosie, that I can't say until tomorrow.

So we will make the announcement between us tomorrow. And we absolutely will. I don't think anybody's on tent hooks because we have said we're going to choose a nice short book in a January style. So I think we'll all be OK. It's a book that's just got the most fantastic title. Just so drawn to it because of the title. So thank you for all of your suggestions, which we will also run through on the podcast tomorrow

because sometimes all you need, actually, is a recommendation from somebody else. So there'll be other things that get recommended along the way. Definitely. And to those people who've already emailed with their stories about pornography, hugely appreciated. Thank you for your honesty. No, you don't need to worry.

Your names will never be mentioned. We'll keep everything between us. But it's just really, really good to get a proper range of experiences and of thoughts on the whole subject of pornography, particularly, I guess, in relation not just to bringing up children, but your life and how you've lived your life and how it's impacted on the way you live your life. So keep those stories coming to Jane andandfee at times.radio.

More on that subject next week. I've got to go because I must go back to Vera. I'm only halfway through this week's episode. What went on at that, as you pointed out earlier, quite small covered market? There was a lot of rivalry going on. It was like a make-out. There were two fruit and veg stalls.

There was a stall selling what looked like kind of straw doily things. But they're useful. And one selling Kenny's pants. That was great. They had a market inspector with a huge office. He did a big office. Quite a small cupboard market. But listen, we're not picking holes.

I wouldn't dare. I love it. Have a very good evening. You did it. Elite listener status for you for getting through another half hour or so of our whimsical ramblings. Otherwise known as the hugely successful podcast Off Air with Jane Garvey and Fee Glover. We missed the modesty class. Our Times Radio producer is Rosie Cutler, the podcast executive producer. It's a man. It's Henry Tribe.

Yeah, he's an executive. Now, if you want even more, and let's face it, who wouldn't, And it's Henry Tribe. Yeah, he's an executive. Now, if you want even more, and let's face it, who wouldn't, then stick Times Radio on at three o'clock, Monday until Thursday, every week. And you can hear our take on the big news stories of the day, as well as a genuinely interesting mix of brilliant and entertaining guests on all sorts of subjects.

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