Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Warning: Just a tiny bit more politics... (with Matt Chorley and Sir Anthony Seldon)

Episode Date: July 1, 2024

Jane has returned from her week off refreshed but is missing one Fi Glover - so until Fi returns, Times Radio's Matt Chorley keeps the seat warm. They talk Larry the Cat, drunken election night stomps around the newsroom and why every politician has the potential to be funny. (Fi is back tomorrow) Jane also speaks to political historian Sir Anthony Seldon about his new book 'The Conservative Effect, 2010–2024: 14 Wasted Years?' Our next book club pick has been announced! 'Missing, Presumed' is by Susie Steiner. If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] Follow us on Instagram! @janeandfi Podcast Producer: Eve Salusbury Executive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I'll just say we go now live to Jane Garvey. Jane, what are you hearing? And we'll just let you chat away. And it may not go on the radio? Yeah. Has that happened to me before, do you think? I may have to revisit things. Hello, everybody. Welcome to Off Air. And today I've got a man, which for me is pretty unusual, and that man is... Very happy to be here. And it's Matt Chorley. We asked for another one, but there weren't any. No, no, I'm the only one available.

Yeah, so I know Fee has done Off Air with you. Yes, I was you, and now I'm Fee. Okay, and how does it feel? Well, she's younger than me, so it must be... Equally, equally good. Yeah, it must feel quite frisky to be fee for a little bit yeah she's in well she has been in greece but she's back very much with us tomorrow yeah and i'm looking forward to it yeah not that you want no i know

but it's nice it's nice to have your friend back it is yeah now um it's such a big week um we should just say to listeners to our fair that you do Times Radio's excellent mid-morning show, Politics Without the Boring Bits. Politics Without the Boring Bits. 10 till 1. And there have been no boring bits. In fact, the last time I came on, when I was being you, I upset some of my journalistic colleagues

by basically telling them to stop moaning about the election and to cheer up. Because this is exciting. It's really exciting. And this week's really exciting. I am with had a we did have a conversation the other day that we won't mention the person who was on air complaining about the way journalists were treated at a particular event and now i'm face well i yeah i grow up i do think grow up and i also just think um quite bluntly i think choose another Yeah. Because if you have somehow stumbled into journalism,

then you find yourself a little bit annoyed that there's a big event in the offing and you're at it and you might not be able to get a sausage roll at a time appropriate to your digestive system. You have to park it. Every week I get emails from students or graduates saying, I love politics, I love the podcast, I love, you know, how can I get it? I just don't, you know, and they would crawl over hot coals

to go to a Keir Starmer speech. Now, I'm aware that that's not everyone's cup of tea. But yeah, anyway, so I won't say that. I won't go on about our journalistic colleagues again. No, this week is really exciting, you know, and it will be Thursday night I'm doing the overnight show. Is this your first overnighter? It is my first overnighter because, yeah, it was because we launched, Times Radio launched in 2020, so before that was print-based. Must have been terrible.

What was it like before you encountered a microphone? I can't imagine. Were you already doing your stand-up? Because Matt also does. I had done stand-up. Right. And I was doing the podcast. Right.

So the 2017 and 2019 elections, I was in the Times newsroom. And when the exit poll dropped, I fired off a Redbox email. Right. And then... What's a Redbox email? So this is the Times' daily political email. And I think in 2017, I think enough time has probably passed now to tell the story, I was in the, there was a do, there was a drink,

there was a sort of party. Well, there is a party this year. This year, yeah. And so I went to that, and then I went down to the office and did the exit poll, and Theresa May had lost a majority, which was quite amusing, given that she'd called the election,

which she didn't need to. And then I went off and did some broadcasting elsewhere, and then I went to a party where they'd got an ice sculpture of Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn. And it was much more melted when I left than when I wrote. What time of year is it? I've forgotten that election. June. It was June as well. So it was quite mild.

Sure, I appeared on a different radio station from a gazebo on College Green. It's possible I just sat in the gazebo on my own. Yeah. I'd had a couple of gin and tonics. Anyway, I then came back to London Bridge area, which is where we are, Times 20 South, and I was just walking into the hotel. I'm not sure, I think it was about four...

Is there an end to this anecdote? Four or five o'clock in the morning. Yeah. So I went to the hotel and bumped into Times reporters coming out of the building who'd just finished writing up the first draft of history. And instead of going to bed, we went back to my room and drank more. Then they went to bed and I, I think, just put a clean shirt on

and came into the Times quite drunk and quite loud to write another red box email. You see, if there are any students listening to this, I mean, it's unlikely, but let's say there might be. Kids, this is where you need to get into. This is where you need to get into journalism. So glamorous. Stomping around the Times newsroom.

Yeah. Drunk. Yeah, drunk in a slightly stained shirt. Yeah. No, I put a clean shirt on. Well, but what was... Six in the morning. Yeah, okay.

I just know I've done a couple of... So this election, I'm going to Rishi Sunak's count. Yeah. Which is in, well, it's in North Allerton. And it's going to be a long night. We know that his result won't come through till four ish very rural and it's very rural yeah that's the excuse isn't it they've got to get all the boxes there yeah there's something wonderfully old school and brilliant and british about all this but i do know having done some of these nights i think it's my fourth overnighter at a count, that at about 20 past two in the morning,

regardless of how exciting things are, and look, we are all nerds, we all love this, your tongue has started to stick to the roof of your mouth. And your... Your mic's just gone off. What's happened there? No, it hasn't. Oh, did you lean on?

Have you just pressed on? Press on. Oh, there hasn't. Oh, did you lean on? Have you just pressed on? Press on. Oh, there we are. So about your radio professionalism, you lent on the off button. I was just reminiscing there about all the election nights I've covered and then I was cut off in my prime

in the middle of a wonderful bit of advice about how your tongue sticks to the roof of your mouth in the early hours of the morning when I lent on the off button and turned my own microphone off. But you wouldn't complain about the food laid on, would you? Well, there was... No, I was actually a very...

The last one I did was Sunderland a couple of years ago. It must have been the last election, thinking about it. And there was a fantastic buffet. But they're the ones who waste to do it fast. Yeah, they're a little bit boring, if I'm honest. They really choreograph it. They've got very young people running around with with boxes it just is against the spirit of the thing it's like in the men's men's euros uh i think some of the other teams from abroad have

been practicing and that's just against the spirit of it you know why they do england get they've never met each other before they just turn up put their boots on they've got a lovely strip and they just have a go you You know, actually it's served us very well so far. It takes them about 95 minutes to really gel and then it's fine. Well then something miraculous happens. But I know lots of people aren't interested in sports so we'll leave that there. I'll be honest, that's

the limit of my football banter so that's fine. Okay, well I could go on for hours but nobody wants me to. You're playing too deep, Jane. Yes, absolutely. If I were in the team I would be the midfield general um i think there's no doubt about that um just because i knew i was doing this with you well not entirely for that reason i went last week and i won't name the constituency because it's boring but um went to my local hustings because i thought well this is a good community-minded thing to do

and have you been to yours no i feel I feel like I've let myself down. Well, you let your family down and indeed the radio station down. So I took one of my children, who is a politics student. I thought she'd benefit from it. And in fairness, we both really enjoyed it. But there was something glorious and slightly amateurish and indescribably gloriously British about proceedings. So everybody was terribly polite. And quite a few of the microphones failed. Lovely. Without any intervention from me.

And there were quite a few people who were slightly hard of hearing, who for whatever reason chose to sit at the back, and so constantly shouted out, I can't hear! I can't hear! Really loudly. And everybody had to speak again. But you know what? I'm really glad I did it. I have to say there was only one person you could possibly have thought of electing

from the candidates on display that night. But nevertheless, I've looked into the whites of their eyes now and I feel very confident about casting my vote. And one of the others in about 10 years, 10, 15 years, will turn up in a safe seat, someone else. Well, I'm not sure. The candidate for the party currently in government was doing his level best to distance himself

almost entirely from the party he had chosen to represent. I thought that was a bit odd. And he basically, his shtick was, elect me, I'll improve things from the inside. Yes. Which I thought was a bit odd and he basically, his shtick was, elect me, I'll improve things from the inside. Yes. Which I thought was a bold thing to go for.

I think it's nice that, I think all that sort of village hall. Yeah, it was all that. You know, all that. It's in the, what's the film called? It's the spin-off

of The Thick of It, In the Loop. Yeah. What's so brilliant about that is the Americans are all strutting around and preparing war missiles and all that.

Yeah. While Tom Hollander Yes. is the government are all strutting around and preparing war missiles and all that, while Tom Hollander is the government minister in the UK who on the one hand is trying to stop the Americans invading, but while also dealing with somebody who's got a dispute about a wall or something in a village hall. And I just think it's really grounding for them. Well, I think, didn't that happen once? Was it William Hay?

No, it wasn't William Hay because he was never prime minister, but a British prime minister who went to one of those international summits who was trying to describe to their equals amongst the international leaders that yes, they did indeed have to meet their... Deal with constituents. Yeah, actually deal with their voters, their direct concerns. Have you seen the James Corden play?

I haven't, the constituent. The constituent. I know, a friend of mine was going to see it the other day. Yeah, I've got tickets for a few weeks, so I haven't seen it yet. But I think it's quite quite i quite like the idea it's a mix of views but it's about he is the guy who comes in to complain about the wall and anna maxwell martin martin there we are uh plays the mp but i think it's quite a nice idea yeah you know yeah i think there's a lot of there are a lot of very decent and i'm going to say this

there's a lot of very decent diligent mps of all to say this, there's a lot of very decent, diligent MPs of all persuasion. Correct. Is that the right thing to say? They do all go into it for the right reasons. They might get waylaid once they're there. They don't all go in it for the right reasons, do they? But I don't think it's quite hard to become an MP, as lots of them will

discover this week. Yeah. And you know, to get selected, you have to get chosen as a candidate, and then you probably have to put in four or five years of thank And, you know, to get selected, you have to get chosen as a candidate and then you probably have to put in four or five years of thankless,

you know, leafleting or whatever. And then you might get elected and then you might have to do that a couple of times in unwinnable seats before you get to it. Even getting into the House of Commons

is quite hard. You have to be pretty committed to, if people think it's just to line your pockets, there are much easier ways of going about that. Yeah.

Some of them aren't very bright some of them might not be the sort of people you'd want to be in a bar with late at night and all of that but that is true in life but on the whole it's true in radio nobody's lining their pockets here that's not what I've heard

actually it's an interesting point about mps pay they it's not well it's difficult because they don't actually earn all that much whilst also earning about three times the average salary exactly uh so it's it's a really difficult one isn't it or is it different should it i mean there's no way that an incoming let's say it is labour government could suddenly rise make make sure that mp's pay goes up by 30 percent but is there they could i mean i'm not actually saying i've got no intelligence to suggest it would be the case but uh kirsten is never going to be more powerful than he is on saturday so if he's going to do it he should do it then then. Maybe he should announce it, join the football, and no one will notice.

Yes. Oh, I hadn't thought about that. Do you think he might be Prime Minister on Saturday, then? I think there's a reasonable chance. I've already decided what I'm writing a column on for this week, for Saturday's paper. Go on. I think the first thing he should do when he arrives at number 10 is get rid of Larry the Cat.

Oh, my God. Yeah. But some people think that Larry the Cat is the only thing that holds this nation together. No, I think people who like Larry the Cat are using it as a substitute for having a personality. People who find cats amusing. Well, listen...

In any form. Can I just say, appearing on Off Air and being in any way rude about cats is actually... Am I blowing it now? You will never be invited back well i mean i can't believe you said that i mean larry actually hadn't he had a period of poor health because i don't think i don't think we've seen all the poison i've been putting down no to be clear i've not been poisoning i don't know what your prospects are because i understand

you're leaving this uh this uh place of work relatively soon but i'm here this is what you call going out with a bang. Yeah, if you've poisoned Larry the cat, you're... No, I don't mean him any ill harm. I just mean harm to the people who think that it's amusing to have a cat, to have a Twitter account about a cat, to take photos of a cat, to put a bow tie on a cat.

Oh, dear, I can't agree, Matt. Have I blown it? Are you a cat person or the dogs? I've just on a cat. Oh dear, I can't agree, Matt. Have I blown it? Are you a cat person or the dogs? I've just got a cat. Right. I mean, she's got us rather than me having her. Do you not have a cat? No, I've got a dog. Of course I've got a dog. What's the dog called? Poppy. That's a comedy name,

isn't it? Well, no, it was given to her by the guide dogs who she was trained with and then she was rejected. You see, now I feel really awful and we're probably about even. But she's not blind. Oh, she's not. Although, that was how, so we got the dog, because I went to a Tory party conference and the guide dogs were there.

They had a guide dog there, and they said that this dog had been rejected. So what's the matter? Apparently he had to have eye drops. And you can't have a blind person putting eye drops in a dog, in almost blind dogs. I mean, that's just, that is literally the blind leading the blind it is but you are talking to the woman who once by accident put in her daughter's eye drops intended for her earwax and it didn't end well and i never did

it again obviously and you should not do that lesson learned yeah oh totally lesson learned and that was because i didn't have my glasses on when I did it. Anyway, look, mistakes can be made even by the greatest of mothers. And I certainly put myself in the top 10 or 11 million of mothers. No, 10%. 10%? Top 10%. I'm not sure they'd agree necessarily.

So we are looking forward to this week. And do you know what troubles me genuinely? Obviously, I'm quite a committed person, having gone to my local hustings, is that probably 30% or more of the population will not vote. Now, I have sympathy for some of them. And I understand that maybe they just feel that there is no point because they've been let down by everybody.

But there will be people who just can't be asked. Yeah. What do you think about them? That politician... Well, I don't know. I think it's fine if you think, you know, there's nothing good for me. It would obviously be better if more people did vote.

It might be that politics and political journalism might do a better job of trying to engage those people and think it doesn't make any difference. I was to ask about that in a way i mean we're just about to hear from sir anthony selden the i mean he's preeminent political historian um but sometimes the media is horrible to and about politicians uh we we bring them down we sometimes deliberately misunderstand them for cheap laughs, like you do, or headlines, or indeed just for fun. So we're part of the problem too, aren't we?

I think so. I mean, I think I'd much rather have a media that was more on the lively side than not. Oh, yeah. And I've always found it weird when there's been sort of American presidents or French presidents that come on visits and you go to the press conference and all the French or American journalists stand up when the president

walks in. Do they? Yeah. Why? Because it's the head of state and they're very deferential. While we're sort of, you know, our prime minister walks in and everyone flicks them the V's. So I think on the whole I'd much rather have, and I actually think maybe the split of impartial broadcast,

but, you know, partial, you know, papers is probably, probably as a system that on the whole works out all right. But I don't, I'm genuinely interested in what happens with turnout this week. Because I think it could go one of two ways. It could be the sort of plague on all your houses. Everyone knows the result. There's no point in voting. Or there may be a mood for change,

which means that people who previously have thought will leave it to other people, whether it was on the Brexit vote or the 2019 vote, whatever it is, do think, well, I need to go out and do it. A lot of that is going to come down to the comms, particularly from the Labour Party over the Labour Party and the Lib Dems, over the next few days. Can they rile up their supporters

to actually go out in greater numbers and vote? And I heard Andrew Neil today on Times Radio saying that he is not going to vote because he thinks that he's taking, I think, what he called the Dimbleby stance and withdrawing from the process as someone who floats above it. Will you vote? Yeah, because I think it he called the Dimbleby stance and withdrawing from the process as someone who floats above it. Will you vote?

Yeah, because I think it's important. And I will make my decision on Thursday, probably. I mean, I think I wear my politics quite lightly. I think most people, whether if they listen to my radio show or come to my stand-up show, it's a bit, you know, freer. They've sat through two hours of me taking the mickey out of politicians and then said, I still don't know what your politics are. And it's sort of because I don't really know what my politics are either.

No. And I think that's probably the right way to be. I've always found journalists who are very partisan just a bit odd. And I don't like all the sort of one minute someone's writing a column and then they're a candidate or they've gone to be a spad. I think it's all, because actually that creates ill will and suspicion amongst our audience. I'm not saying that was a good speech

by that person because I'm trying to get a job with them, which is sort of the suspicion. So yeah, I will vote. I think it's important. Okay, very briefly before we get to Sir Anthony Seldon, is there any comedic value or are there any humorous possibilities around Sir Keir Starmer? Because I am struggling.

Yes. And in fact, I think the worst bit in recent political history for those of us who try to write jokes about politicians was the year of Boris Johnson. Because my gran can write a Boris Johnson joke. You know, it's just... It's like Donald Trump.

It's just... It's like Donald Trump. It's like, you know, it's beyond... You know, if they are... If he is a walking, talking joke, it's quite hard to make jokes about that. I've read loads of stuff about Keir Starmer. His dad was a toolmaker and all that, and he lives in a pebble-dashed semi, and I was mulling this one down when I was walking home,

and I realised I live in a pebble-dashed semi. And I thought it was quite nice, but it turns out, if you're Keir Starmer, it's a sign of great destitution, like not having Sky TV when you're a child. So, yeah, there'll be loads. And there'll be Angela Rayner and Rachel Rees. And stuff will happen.

The government will happen. You know, it's not like there was no comedic potential in Tony Blair and Gordon Brown. Well... It will be... There will be... I will work harder than ever to find it. Thank you, Matt.

That's my promise. Well done. Well, you heard him say it. Let's see what he can do, what mirth he can drag from the morass of British politics. I didn't say Labour politics, I said British politics. Exactly, because I treat everyone equally. Yes, with contempt. Yeah.

OK, Matt, have a lovely election week. And you. I look forward to speaking to you in the early hours Yes, can you speak to me before 4 o'clock for God's sake I've got 6 hours sitting there before I speak I think I'll go berserk I'll just start addressing the room I'll just get a loud hailer

Move aside, I've got something to say Yes There we are Rosie, our producer, says Larry the Cat is 17 years old. There we are. Rosie, our producer, says Larry the Cat is 17. Yeah. Oh, well, so surely. What's that in cat years? But he's only known Tory Prime Minister. He was brought in by David Cameron. David Cameron didn't really like him.

He was from Battersea Cats. Oh, David Cameron didn't like him. Not particularly. I think he had to deny that. Right. But it remains one of the funniest things I've ever seen on ex-formerly Twitter, when Larry is let in by the policeman to Downing Street. You see, you say that's... It's just an excuse for a sense of humour

to be interested in that sort of thing. That single bit of film, I remember watching and re-watching it because I just thought it was sweet and very British. No? Let's not fall out, Jane. We've got to talk at four in the morning. I told you, Matt, I will be talking more than once at four o'clock in the morning. I'll tell you what, we'll just phone you up

and you can just do a piece down the line and we may or may not take it live. It'll just make me feel better. I'll just say we go now live to Jane Garvey. Jane, what are you hearing? And we'll just let you chat away. And it may not go on the radio. Yeah.

Has that happened to me before, do you think? I may have to revisit things our guest in what passes for our fair today um with matt and we are grateful to you matt thank you um i've been talking this afternoon to sir anthony selden now he is a brilliant uh political biographer political historian and his latest work is a book of essays, which he's co-edited, called The Conservative Effect, 14 Wasted Years. I do need to emphasise there is a question mark there at the end of the phrase, 14 wasted years. So it's not a judgment exactly. Although if you read the essays, there is a judgment. And I'm here to tell you, he's not overly impressed by the Conservative government of the last 14 years in the UK.

Anyway, here is Sir Anthony Seldon. And when I asked him how he would assess the Conservatives' performance in general. Well, we're not looking from the point of view of contemporary politicians trying to get votes. We're just trying to stand back the editors and the contributors and say, this is how it looks in history. This is what people might be saying in 10 and 15, 50, 100 years time about this government. And, you know, it hasn't been terrible. There have been some good achievements. There have been some very good individual performances by cabinet ministers. Education, for example, was one success with university literacy improving. But overall, if you look at other periods of Conservative Party rule, this is the weakest

performing since the 1840s, I believe, and my co-editor Tom believes. The weakest performing since the 1840s. That is a pretty damning indictment, isn't it? I mean, I notice in particular the emphasis on stalling life expectancy, declining health of the poorest of the population and increasing health inequalities. That is a pretty grim legacy as well, isn't it? Yes, when you add in that stalled economic productivity and growth and crime, not on top of crime, law and order, and not on top normally tries to prioritise all of these. But across the public services, health and housing and transport, the performance has said there have been some bright spots, obviously, as said. But overall, this is not a glorious period of Tory rule. And there are reasons for that. What are the reasons? Well, you don't succeed if you chop and change ministers and prime ministers and chancellors very quickly. And if you chop and change policies. So look back at Labour that was in power for almost the same time, 13 years after 1997. Just two prime ministers, two chancellors, pretty consistent policy.

That compares with five prime ministers, any number of chancellors, and even more chops and changes of policy. The Conservatives after 1979 had two prime ministers in Thatcher and Major and a lot of continuity. So no one runs any company or radio station or football team and chops and changes strategy and key figures, key personnel, key ideas all the time and hopes to be a success. Consistency, steadiness, a certain maturity, a firmness of resolution and direction. These are the qualities you need to make anything successful. It's a pretty serious business actually running the country. Yes, certainly I've read at least one essay in the book that says that Johnson and Truss were just never prime ministerial material.

Well, they weren't. They thought they were, but that's the difference. You can think that you can do something, but you can't. And to be a good prime minister, you've got to be a good human being. I don't think Boris Johnson was a good human being. And you've got to be good at your job, and neither were good at their jobs. It requires a certain humility, a certain willingness to learn how to do the job. Nothing prepares you to be prime minister. But the best ones have a certain humility, a certain readiness to learn from history and from experienced people around them. Both of them thought they knew exactly how to do it. And or in Johnson's case, they listened to know nothings. And the result was what we saw. Can I just bring in a listener who says if chopping and changing policy policies is bad government, it doesn't give much hope for Starmer. And I think you probably understand.

Well, I mean, you probably understand where that listener is coming from, don't you? I mean, short-termism is a thing that we link to quite a number of politicians, regardless of party. Okay, so I completely understand, well, I think what the listener was saying, which is that Starmer has changed his policies a lot in his record, up to date, actually so have many of the greatest prime ministers, including Lloyd George and including Churchill. I think what matters is once you're in Downing Street, there has to be a firmness of principle, a certain resolution, consistency. And if you lose that, you lose respect very rapidly of your own MPs and indeed the country.

Now, of course, things will happen that will result in some changes of direction, but if the overall direction is not clear, if the principles on which you are governing as a human being, if they flip-flop and change, then I think it's hard to build trust. What sort of Prime Minister do you think Keir Starmer will be? Yeah, that's another. I mean, he doesn't have the charisma of two really masters of charisma and persuasiveness. In Harold Wilson, who became prime minister, Labour prime minister in 1964, who really caught the spirit of the age magnificently well, probably the most impressive incoming Labour leader. And then, of course, Tony Blair in 1997, extraordinary charisma and charm and persuasiveness. Now, Keir Starmer is not like that. But interestingly, he is not at all unlike

Clement Attlee, who came to power in 1945, who, it so happens, turned out to be Labour's most impressive prime minister in power and indeed one of the most impressive prime ministers of any party. Yes. What was it Winston Churchill said about Clement Attlee or was that somebody else? He said many things, but one of them was an empty taxi through up outside Number 10 Dining Street, and Mr. Atlee got out of it for, yes, he was a modest man, wasn't he? He said in agreement to somebody who said that he's modest, and he said he's a modest man with a lot to be modest about. Yes, I mean, they're good lines. I mean, witty and funny, but actually not true. He wasn't a charismatic person.

And just maybe, Jane, maybe we've got to an era where we've had these whiz-bang people who say they can do everything and you've got to get rid of everybody because everyone's trashy and useless and we're going to sort it out. Maybe just somebody who's morally serious. All the nine great prime ministers out of the 57 have had a moral seriousness. Some of them had big personalities, others like Starmer, not so much. I think this might be an era for quiet, steady people, just with a bit of greatness. Might be what we need. Yes, the media and the voters, we have a part to play here, don't we? And sometimes perhaps we get the prime ministers we deserve.

Absolutely. Well, of course we do, because we don't vote for them directly, but we vote for the party. And they promise the earth. I can't talk about Brexit, can we? Well, I was going to ask you about Brexit. I mean, I wonder what you think has been missing, notably, from the campaign trail, from the discussions around the election. And Brexit, many people regard it as a self-inflicted wound. And neither of the two main parties want to engage. They just won't talk about it. Well, they won't talk about it for a whole variety of reasons. Well, they won't talk about it for a whole variety of reasons. The best reason is that we do not need as a country to go back to that terribly divisive, damaging period that we had where we lost effectively five years of government when the roads could have been dealt with, when we could have moved forward. So we lost all that. And so I don't think we want to go back to it. But I think the voters just need honesty. They just need politicians who are going to be honest with them and tell them, as Churchill did in 1944, that it's tough. They're going to be tough times. And to not expect much.

It will take a long, a lot of hard work to dig us out of this trough into which we now are in 2024. How can growth be achieved by, let's say, an incoming Labour government? Well, by trusting business. Government does not create growth. The private sector creates growth. And by listening very, very carefully. And one thing that business leaders felt that Boris Johnson didn't do, actually, all the way through through May, to some extent, Cameron, certainly trusts, theyability, operating within the fiscal framework of the OBR. And so they can plan investment. They can plan their future building strategies. So a world in which business is talked up pretty seriously and then let them get on with the work. Government can't second guess business. So I think that's what the early signs of Rachel Reeves are, that she'll be willing to do that. Listen to business is extraordinary. Prime Ministers appoint business advisors,

but they never listen to their business advisors, tell them what business want. I wish we had more time with you. But very briefly, who will be the next leader of the Conservative Party? Henry Badenoch, and, who will be the next leader of the Conservative Party? Emily Badenoch, and she then won't be the next Prime Minister. The Conservative Party will go to the lurch to the right. It generally does. The Conservative Party has been the dominant force of the last two centuries, but it never wins from the right. It always wins from the centre. And so it won't break up. It will go through a prolonged angst and self-fighting and come out and realise that the centre ground weren't so bad after all. Right. And do you anticipate that the Tories will be out of government for two terms or just one?

I think it could be three. That was Sir Anthony Selden. And he does say there, Matt, that he thinks the Tories will be out of office for possibly three terms. But that's what they said about Labour in 2019. It's the beauty of politics. That things don't go the way that we predict. Things are volatile, and that's why it's exciting. This time next week, Rishi Sunak will be British Prime Minister. Ed Davey will be King.

And Ed Davey will be King. And Ed Davey will be king. And England will be a step closer to winning the men's Euros 2024. I honestly can't wait. You know, people said this summer was a summer made for centrist dads. This summer was a summer made for me. I've got football, I've got politics, and I've got the Olympics coming up. And you've had me. And I've had him.

Fee's here tomorrow. It is off air and the way you contact us is janeandfee at times.radio. Well done for getting to the end of another episode of Off Air with Jane Garvey and Fee Glover. Our Times Radio producer is Rosie Cutler and the podcast executive producer is Henry Tribe. And don't forget, there is even more of us every afternoon on Times Radio. It's Monday to Thursday, three till five. You can pop us on when you're pottering around the house or heading out in the car on the school run or running a bank. Thank you for joining us. And we hope you can join us again on Off Air very soon.

Don't be so silly. Running a bank? I know, ladies. A lady listener. I'm sorry.