Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Was the Duchess of Devonshire above chemical toilets? (with Xand van Tulleken)

Episode Date: September 9, 2026

'Season of mists and mellow fruitfulness, Close bosom-friend of the maturing sun.' But even maturing bosoms need sun cream... Welcome to Wednesday's episode! Jane and Fi chat Manchester's cathedral (or lack thereof?), mental load, antique Sudocrem, bombing not bumming, and Fi imparts some plumbing wisdom... Plus, doctor and broadcaster Xand van Tulleken discusses his book 'Make Me Well' and his mission to expose the vitamin and wellness industry. You can buy tickets to the Cheltenham Literature Festival here: www.cheltenhamfestivals.org/events/jane-garvey-and-fi-glover-with-anneka-rice You can check out our YouTube channel here: https://www.youtube.com/@OffAirWithJaneAndFi Our most asked about book is called 'The Later Years' by Peter Thornton.If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiPodcast Producers: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Do you know, I stood in front of my bookshelves, I'm thinning them out at the moment, and it's quite difficult to decide which ones to keep and which ones to get rid of. And I feel, because you and I, you know, we have interviewed quite a few people over the years. I should say so. I've always tried to keep books of people that I've interviewed. But I think there's come a time now where that's not feasible. just not going to go back to some of those ones again. But the starting point for this conversation was you mentioning that

Alistair Campbell has got another one out. And I did look at his copy of Winners, which is deliciously signed. I thought, how am I keeping that? I don't know. Charity shops in the very posh part of East London where you live area. I think they're going to be getting a copy that, aren't they quite soon? Do you think? Yes, I do. I do. I always wondered whether I'd follow it up with Alistair Campbell's losers.

Well, yes. well I don't know but his new book is out in a guy why am I talking about this I don't know what's his book about I don't know he hasn't said and nor is he told us the title right so there we'd be lovely wouldn't it if he'd completely diversified into maybe Alistair Campbell's guide to autumn fashion

or his guide to housework because I think he quite famously has declared that he's never done anything well that would be a slim tone then wouldn't it? He wrote a couple of semi-pornographic novels didn't he? Well didn't he used to work for a porn mag didn't he? So I don't know whether he just wrote long form erotic essays. I think that was more what he did. Okay. But then he did bring a couple of novels out when he left politics. Yeah, when he left politics. One of them I think called Maya, which I remember reading, I think probably I had a bit of an interview with him too.

So we've covered him. Let's move on. Quick. It's a phrase I never thought I'd say. We've covered Alistair Campbell. Let's just talk about double entendres in a childish way and bring in debilip. who's a long-time listener and will be in Cheltenham. Now, in Cheltenham, that's great. It'll be good to see you there. That is in a couple of weeks.

We do look forward to going to the Cheltenham Literature Festival. It's always very lovely just to visit Cheltenham. It's a beautiful town. It's fantastic. And even we don't usually get a chance because we're bumming in and out to go to lots of the other things. Bombing, not bumming in an out.

Available. But I often feel that I've dusted myself with an intellectual rigour just by being there. I think so. There's just something about, it's a very dignified little town with a lot going on and some very, very interesting people and some wonderful retail opportunities. And we are there because we're interviewing Annaika Rice about her autobiography challenge. I just think that will be fun.

It would be brilliant. She is fun. So please do. If you can get down there, we'd love to see you. Debbie is catching up with the podcast from a sunlanger in Demetria. Never heard of that, but it's on roads. How wonderful. Jane recently talked about a road in Malvern with a silly name. She couldn't remember the name. Well, it was horny old road. How could you've forgotten that? It did remind me of a recent journey I made to collect some garden furniture.

I live in Sully Hole and needed to take a 40-minute journey to Cradley Heath. So I set the sat-nav and laughed out loud on both the journey there and back when I was directed to turn left into Bell End. Is that for real? It's the Midlands So quite possibly Oh dear, right Okay

I did have a good chuckle with you both About Brian Johnston and his weighted blanket No intellectual debate in my email Just school girl humour Says Debbie all that's alright It's very welcome Absolutely fine Very welcome

Don't worry about it Emma joins us from Rutland Now Emma has Completely and utterly Change my mind about the music of Neil Diamond Yeah I'm afraid I can't I'll know this now No

this is really, is it just really disturbing actually Emma. So what do we do with this? I'm not sure this can be read out, well, we're going to. That's us. But I agree with Neil Diamond was utterly brilliant in concert, but caused much ridicule for me when I saw Earl's Court about 25 years ago when I was only 25. And the average concert go was probably my age now,

but seems so old, as did he, at 60. However, now this is an enormous, however. there was one very disconcerting moment when he invited women to come up to his kissing booth which involved him sitting on the front of the stage snogging women who raced forward he asked one if she had a partner and she said he was with her in the audience

to which Neil Diamond announced she's ready for you now it absolutely grossed me out but I do still love his iconic tunes and it's just so difficult Emma I'm just not going to be able to listen to him in the same way crackling Rosie oh dear How many years ago is that?

Crackling Rose. Oh, is it? Oh, is it? Right. It's about our executive producer. 24, 25 years ago. About 25 years ago. Oh, just, Neil, don't do it.

Why do you need to do that? People really love your music anyway. Why do you need to do that? That's very unhygienic and it's very wrong. So, Emma, let's hold hands together. and maybe we'll be able to get through it. And we do know that there's some pretty nefarious activity that still goes on in the world of the rock and rollers.

That seems to just be a given, that sexual attraction that seems to go with being on stage and virile and whatever. I mean, I don't think Florence is, you know, standing outside her dressing room, waiting a long line of young men to join her after a set at the Redding Festival. Dolly Parton didn't have, you know, great. different line up of ripped young men, you know, who later in life slightly regretted what they're done.

It's just so weird, Jane, but Neil, don't. Close down the kissing booth. It's something about, is it something about the stance of a young, and let's say it is a young man, although we know that these bands, these all-male combos go on for decades, don't they? Something about the stance of the man with his guitar and the way he stands and that whole, I've got my instrument in my hand and I'm going to fiddle with it strum it I was going to say fiddle with it

what is that all about and look we should say there are plenty of willing female participants in all this absolutely there are and we're not suggesting for women none of these women who are going to you know we were running up on the stage to the kissing with they weren't being made to do anything

no absolutely not you're too young but there was this amazing TV show cookie show cookery show when I was a girl called the Galloping gourmet. Oh, do you remember? I used to love, he was called Graham something, Graham Kerr, I think. And at the end of when he'd created a meal really very quickly, and at the end of the show, a lady from the audience could join him on stage and eat the meal. And I remember as, I must have been well below my teens, I used to love it. I used to,

oh, how wonderful to be invited up to share a meal with Graham. I think for me, I was stunned that a man could cook because it didn't happen in our house. And it was. It didn't happen in any other household I knew, but here was Graham just magically conjuring up this amazing fair. And then I think they had like flowers on the table. And it just seemed like a glimpse of the future. I thought, wonderful. I can't wait to be a part of a life.

But he didn't, he wasn't snogging them or whatever. No suggestion of that. No, but a willing lady from the audience was invited to be a part of his greatness at the end. And as a child, far from being outraged by it, I thought it was tremendous. I just thought wow, great. Well, I mean, they were different times, but this isn't particularly different times. It's not that long ago.

Emma from Rutland, can we just go back to her email because it was plenty in there. There was plenty in there. It was very beautifully done. It was separated into very neat paragraphs. There's one about boarding school. I can only ever remember wishing I could go away to boarding school, imagining St Trinians.

Finally, my parents allowed me to go for sixth form, and I absolutely adored it, made brilliant friends, and did activities. I've never had the opportunity to do, since. I appreciated and made the most of every moment. However, a number of girls loathed it and were deeply unhappy. And I also believe that many of the boys who had boarded since they were tiny tended to have overinflated egos, a lack of awareness or appreciation for the real world and a strong sense of entitlement. And I haven't seen much change in over 30 years.

There is also a piece about Liverpool versus Manchester. Would you like me to read parts of this to you? Well, I just want to say thank you very much for you. your very positive thoughts. Actually, what she says is that she had a great visit to Liverpool generally, and the cab drivers were particularly good with her elderly dad. And I just want to echo that, because whenever I've taken my dad anywhere in a cab in Liverpool or around the suburb where he lives, they're brilliant. They're really helpful, helping him in and out for hospital appointments and stuff. So you're absolutely right about that. And Liverpool Anglican Cathedral is so well worth a visit. It's just incredible. And don't worry, Emma, because you haven't started something off again.

No, no, no. Because we will just, we'll be able to rest it. It would go off again if you had said that Manchester was better than Liverpool, in which case we'd be here for ours. We would be here for hours. But you've landed on the right side there. Yeah. I haven't been to Manchester Cathedral, but I'm sure there is one. Okay, lucky Manchester, it might get a visit. On the boarding school thing, there is a thing in the therapy world of boarding school syndrome that is very well recognised. And I just throw that in there because I know that we've got quite a few therapists and can't. counsellors who listened to this podcast. I'm not having a downer on boarding schools at all, but it's quite a strangely British thing. And some of the stuff that went down in boarding schools

of yore is truly disturbing, actually. It's a proper, proper stain on the establishment, actually, for looking the other way. So we are interested to hear all kinds of stories. But Emma from Rutland, I'm delighted you had a lovely sixth form. No, that is good. And I can imagine the six. film is really, really very, very different from going away at nine or seven in some cases. But yeah, it's, I mean, you're absolutely right. There was this idea that, yes, I had a terrible time at my boarding school, so I'm going to send my son.

Yes, keep it in the family. Why? And that was a thing. But, I mean, I'm with V. We're not saying all boarding school experiences are terrible. Clearly, that isn't true. Mental load has proved to be quite interesting. And thank you for your thoughts on this.

This is from somebody who wants to be anonymous. on the point of mental load, where the correspondent noted that her sister-in-law has chosen to opt out of organising for her husband's family, I've got to say I did feel a small pang of panic, as that describes mine and my husband set up. Am I the sister-in-law, writes Anonymous? When we first got together, I found myself organising all of the events, the presents, keeping contact, etc., with both my family and his. However, he wasn't stressing about what to get any of my relatives for Christmas, nor was he doing any organising for any gatherings with my side. Why? Because there is absolutely no obligation for men to fulfil these roles.

After a couple of years, I told him I'd just had enough, without adding his family into my mix. Don't get me wrong, I like them. But it's unfair for me to carry double the mental load here, simply because of society's expectations of women. This has meant some Christmases where gift giving has been poor, and I've had to sit awkwardly while his mother has been gifted something from the middle of little. Has this meant that birthdays have been forgotten?

Yes. Has this meant a few more barbed comments to me from his dad's wife? Yes. But she says, I've just got to make peace with it. It's on him. It's not on me. My side of things runs very smoothly. Gift giving is thoughtful and nice.

Never last minute. Birthdays are remembered. Barbed comments are still to be found, but that's families, I suppose. Both my husband and I work full-time, why should I get another full-time unpaid job while he can relax and just show up? Right, I can feel a lot of people nodding in appreciation of that email. I'm afraid it is still true. It's that expectation that women will just do it anyway. But let's try and be more positive about it, because overwhelmingly the that we have heard are from people of our generation, aren't they, where we've just been expected to take on all of these things. And I hate that fact that this correspondent has been on the receiving end of criticism from her partner's family for not fulfilling their expectations of her, not necessarily her partner's expectations of her, their expectations of her.

Just back off father-in-law, back off mates. Or mother-in-law, there needs to be sisterly solidarity. No, very much so. And there sometimes isn't. But let's just really, really mark our own cards about what we're going to expect in the future. And if there is ever a tut that we feel coming our way, because it'll be us, won't it, who are left out of the equation by our, well, it won't be you actually. It may well be if my son's partner decides she can't be asked to remember my birthday.

I'm not going to tut in her direction. That's what we need to keep in our heads when we're discussing this. I mean, I wouldn't put it past either of my daughters to forget my birthday. I'll body brain them if they ever do. But anyway. Yeah, but you won't have that experience of a woman coming into your family. Well, not that I'm aware of, no. But hey, listen, everything you know, you never know.

It's all fluid. Well, I didn't know that it was fluid. Well, it's not. But it could be. Right. That's what I'm saying. I'd be just as delighted to have a daughter-in-law as a son-in-law. should either of those two things ever come to pass.

I feel that this has suddenly got way more complicated than it was intended to. I thought we were on the precipice there. There's something absolutely massive. But you're right, like a Boy Scout, be prepared. Be prepared and that's a proud feminist. I would be more than happy to have a lesbian daughter. That's all I'm saying. You've covered all bases, darling.

Have I covered all bases? God, I've tried. I absolutely have. I've really tried. Actually, on that note, Rachel says, I found that conversation between Amy and Kirsten in Vigil about their domestic set up. Oh, it was ridiculous.

I mean, they're in a real crisis on this Arctic, or was it Antarctic base? Arctic base. Right. And I mean, there were people on ATVs. Do you know what that is? I have to really think about it. No, I'm sorry, I don't.

All terrain vehicles. Oh, yes. And they had guns, massive rifles. There's no time to start arguing about your relationship. They had hand guns as well. It was absolutely freezing. There was no heating in the satellite centre. There didn't appear to be more than a couple of.

of blankets. It wasn't even an emergency biscuit tin going down. And they took that as the time at which and also they were trying to protect somebody from being killed by either the Russians, the Norwegians, the British, the Chinese. Don't forget the Russians. Or I don't know any other member of the Arctic community. And yeah, they discussed the mental load. Yeah. Well, anyway, Rachel says she just found it really bizarre. You wanted to hear about relationships in the gay community and sharing the load. I often get this question as a gay woman. When we first got together about 17 years ago, we did share jobs. It was a standing joke. I did inside jobs. She did outside jobs. However, my wife got a promotion, which meant I took on more. Having said that, she was very aware that I took

on more and made a conscious effort to help. Whoever was free or less busy walked the dog or did the washing. Whoever didn't need to catch up on work at the weekend did the shopping. It was a genuine team effort. Sounds marvellous, doesn't it? However, my wife retired in February. And as a result has taken on the lion's share, but we're still a team. This evening, while listening to the podcast, I have washed up, etc., as my wife was apparently exhausted from her day-making soup. Well, it can be tiring. It can be tiring, because there's a lot of standing up involved and chopping. Rachel, thank you very much. That ends this party political broadcast on behalf of the lesbian community. But you did a good job there. That was good. That made it sound like a real possibility

of a version of equality that you may not necessarily get in heteronormative relations. I love the way that everybody, well, I mean, if you've got an open mind, everybody is learning things from a better conversation about same-sex relationships. Because it definitely throws into question some of the accepted norms that have been... Yeah, you've got to think about it. In the heterosexual community for a very long time. So we always, always, always welcome them. I'm going to stick with Vigil right till the very end, Jane. Are you? Yes, I am.

just in order to just find out what the bloody hell is going on. I might watch the final episode to find out what happens, particularly about how they're sharing the mental load. Very much. I want to see what happens when they get back home. I really want to make sure that the kitties are all right because they've just been enough with granny. And granny doesn't appear to actually be a person. We don't know.

We've never seen it. I mean, she could be working for the Russians, the Chinese, the Norwegians. We don't know. I mean, whether or not she has access to an all-terrain vehicle. We don't know that either. But the moment at which it's all suddenly revealed, which usually in a thriller, is an incredibly satisfying moment, isn't it? I think actually for many of us who are watching Visual Series 3,

it will just be an overwhelming sense of relief. It's still good. And I don't think I'm going to understand it any better by the time I get to the end of it. The actors in it are fantastic. It's just a bewildering premise. Well, there's someone from Shetland in there as well, isn't there? That's slightly bamboos for me. young chap.

Yeah, that can be very confusing, can't it? But I did, I did start season three of Colin from Accounts last night. It's glorious, isn't it? It's genuinely funny. Why can't more programmes be that funny? I don't want to use the word quirky

because that's not really good enough, but there is a quirk element to Colin from Accounts that really works. Plus, I love the 30-minute episodes. It's just, somehow it's just enough. It's like a really tasty starter. I'd a lovely starter over the weekend. I didn't mind if it was 45 minutes, actually.

I find 30 minutes a little bit slim. Yeah. But do you know, I really like the way that they talk about sex in Colin from accounts. That was that funny? It's a penile. What was it? It's a very funny bit where he turns off. Anyway, you have to watch it.

It's a questionnaire, isn't it? That he's being asked to answer. A kind of work experience GP. Yeah. And it's about your recent. sexual history and it's receptive penile something rather or intrusive penal something or other. But it is very funny and also the mother character, so her Ashley's mother. Yes, she's running these workshops.

Is it Lynette? Who's running these workshops where men have to stand up and say, I am the man of the house and she is a man's rights campaigner. and it's so brilliant change. It's extremely funny. It's really, really clever. I hope it's as loved in Australia as it is here. Oh, I think it is.

Although he's getting a bit too big for it all, I think, the main, the male act. Patrick Bramall. Because he's in some Apple show that's coming out as well. Yeah, I can't watch that until I'm over Colin from accounts because that's very confusing. This is actually, we'll stop talking about mental load in a minute. This is from Anonymous.

And I just, I'll just put this out there and see if anybody else wants to come in on it. She's talking about how the children, her children have matured. I'm paraphrasing, her children are sort of now in their 20s. And one thing I hadn't anticipated, because this is somebody who did do the majority of the child rearing, is the emotional effect on me as our children transition into adulthood. It's having much more of an impact on me than my husband. I'm happy to see them develop and relieved on so many occasions

that the often exhausting drain of just seeing to the kids is more or less in the past. But it has left a kind of emptiness. me questioning what now. I'm not looking for things to keep me busy. Please don't suggest a wild swimming group. We weren't going to, were we? Okay. I suppose I just wanted to say out loud

that I'm just a bit sad and I sometimes feel a bit lost because I was responsible for something really important for so many years and now I feel it's more or less over. Oh, by the way, it's not over. It's never over, is it? Once you've got them,

I mean, you know, hopefully, God forbid, anything terrible should happen, they're going to be there until you're gone. And so it's never over. Don't feel that. No, I completely understand where our correspondent is coming from because it does feel like you've been made redundant from a job. It definitely, definitely does. That kind of satisfaction of somebody needing something from you

and you providing it to the best of your ability. Yeah. I think when that goes in any form in your life, it is tricky. And I hear what you say, your kids will always need you. And in a sense, now when they need you,

in adult life, they really need you. And it'll be for something big. And you will have to be prepared to use what has turned out to be the motif of this podcast episode. But I really hear you on that, just the kind of the daily pull. I think it is like losing a job.

Well, do chip in on this. have anything to say about it. It's Jane and Fee at times.com. I know we're at that turn of the year with young people going off to uni and things where people, I say people, are parents if you are a parent, you do start to think about what the future might

be like, definitely. And in fact I found myself this morning Jane in about quarter-class 7 very willingly and very lovingly hemming a shirt and in previous years there would have been a little bit about about it. Yes, but now, because it's presented to me, as a

task that makes me feel fulfilled in my life. I really save it every second. I love it. I love it when the nippers come to you and we can actually do something for them. Yes, because sometimes, I mean, increasingly I'm having to ask them how do I do this. What do I do? That comes upon you much quicker than you think, doesn't it? Well, you're asking them. Oh, Lord. Our guest today, by the way, you'll be interested in this. You will be. Is Dr. Zand Van Tullochan and he is someone with some strong views on wellness and particularly supplements. And I was, and Janice Turner interviewed him for the Times over the weekend.

You can still read the article on the Times.com. It's very interesting. Actually, it was yesterday. Forgive me, not the weekend. And he, he, she goes through all the supplements she's taking and he basically just says, C-cobulus. I mean, she mentions the fizzy vitamin C plus sink tablets

that her husband, this is Janice's husband, believes wards off colds, Well, I swear by that stuff. And apparently it's just a load of nonsense. You don't need it at all. Expensive we. It is very, and vibrant urine results. But weirdly, I mean, maybe it's a placebo.

I never feel worse after I've had one of those. But basically, he's taking apart the wellness industry, and it is industry. It's worth billions. Supplements are so expensive. And they're widely advertised by some hugely famous people. and actually Dr Zand himself reveals that he was paid a juicy sum of money to promote something he hasn't done it since he wouldn't do it again

but if you are a medical person you know you're very much in vogue to promote this stuff and some of it is not only not helpful it could be harmful avoid anyway listen to him you speak sense I'm looking forward to hearing from him enormously there's so much cloth being pulled over our eyes isn't there about that

that. So, you know, you'll see somebody dressed up in scrubs telling you about the value of various procedures and all of that kind of stuff. And I'm so bedazzled by that setting. I immediately listen far more closely into whatever it is that's being delivered to me. And it says underneath Dr. So and so, well, A, that might be an AI generated film. B, you and I can be called doctors because we've got honorary doctorates. It doesn't mean that we're doctors with the knowledge of the human body, does it? Well, no.

And also it just, I mean, who's going to bother to track that person down and check their credentials and all of that kind of stuff? It's just the money involved. I hadn't realized. I mean, Janice says in this article, the British supplement,

the annual UK supplement market is worth 3.6 billion pounds. Yeah, well, that doesn't surprise me at all, Jane. I mean, there are high street shops all they sell. supplements. And you just think, well, everybody else on the high streets flailing around and shutting up shop. Yeah. But, you know, these ones are doing mega, mega, mega business. And, I mean, actually, on, you know, where we started with whether or not to chuck out Alistair Campbell's winners, I tell you what, if somebody would like Alistair Campbell's winners, which is a signed

copy, it's a very interesting book, it's about people who succeeded in the world. I'm very happy to send it to them. I was also looking through our shelves. in the bathroom and I mean I've fallen for it myself I've got some hair thickening vitamin supplements that I think I spent a bloody fortune on when my hair thinned quite dramatically after I can't remember which baby arrived as is often the case you know you get this you get the hair of two people during pregnancy yeah and then it falls out it falls out a lot and I got very worried about it then so I bought since I'm nearly 20 years old so but but you think that you're a sentient person and capable of distinguishing what you should and shouldn't have but the way that

we're sold these things is mesmerizing and we've all got them we've all got them in our cabinets they're very very clever these people they really are just on that topic actually can we do can we set our listeners a tiny and very fun challenge about finding the oldest tug of pseudacron brilliant Okay, go for it. Welcome Susie in North... She's slightly barked at me there. I've got it! Susie joins from North Yorkshire.

I'm just going to be over here having a little sip of my coffee. Should we have a little think about North Yorkshire? There we are. We've all pictured where Susie is. My pseudacrem. It is cream, isn't it? Yes. Yes.

But it is a cream. I've never understood why... Anyway, whatever. My... Sudocrim went out of date in the August of 2003. Absolutely brilliant. I'm still using it, boast Susie. I moved house last year, so I cleared out my larder.

The oldest used before date was 1994. What was that for? We'd love to know. Did you eat? Did you eat the product? What does the oldest your listeners have? Well, that's absolutely fascinating. We'll punt that out there if you do have a really... I think we, it's all very well setting the challenge.

You have to have told us that you've eaten it or used it. I mean, pseudacrem, because it's not eaten, it's dabbed on, it's very good with burns, really is actually, and nappy rash and other skin inflammations. It can't do any real harm if it's out of, presumably it won't do much good if it's out of date, but it, I fail to, I can't see how it could do any harm. Well, why do you pop that as your end question to Dr. Zand? Let's make the most of him here. He's not a GP.

It's not like you can only come to him with one problem, which you have to talk about in less than eight minutes. That seems so strange. But also, I would like to know from anybody who's actually finished a whole tub of pseudacrine. I would have thought that would be almost impossible. Yeah, I don't think anybody has. No, unless you have 19 children. I suppose you might get through it for Nappy Ratch.

Some of the tubs are so big. Oh, that could be handed down. Turbo tops. The size of a wheelie bin. Oh, God. Anyway, Eve, we haven't we neglected her? Oh my God, Eve, yes, Eve's up on the Instagram. You can see a picture of her looking really, really beautiful,

with the obviously captivated, captivated Bill Nye. And it's followed by the picture of Rosie and Rod Stewart, which has got the title, Less We Forget, which implies Rod's died. But he hasn't. as of this podcast. He has not, but I just, we shouldn't forget that Rosie didn't leave. Yes, she did.

But it's just, it's a phrase more often used that somebody's passing. I hadn't even considered that. No, it's unfortunate. But it's great because, you know, there'll come a time. I shouldn't say that, actually. No, what have you started?

Well, he's now immortalized in Instagram. Oh my God, don't use words like immortalized. He'll be immortal in my heart. I think we'll just head briefly to one of our most wonderful stately homes. That's Chatsworth again. On a visit to Chatsworth, writes anonymous, with my outspoken mother. Imagine Jane Horrocks and Prunella Scales, right? We took an additional tour of the Duchess of Devonshire's private quarters.

A small group, for some reason, that sounds for author of Routherty. That's not intended to. A small group of us were taken to a different part of the house. eventually coming to a large room. The guide then reverentially told us that her grace stayed in this actual room when in residence. Wow.

My mother then announced, Crikey, if I were her, I wouldn't want to stay here. She hasn't even got a flipping on sweet! A freezing silence hit the tour party and the guide also went entirely silent. I grabbed my mother quickly and bundled her off to the tea room where she complained about the Earl Grey

not being strong enough. Cheers. That's anonymous. Thank you for that beguiling tale of your dear mother's trip to Chatsworth, where she made not very much of the fact that the Duchess doesn't have access to an onsuit. I will have to say, I'm surprised. I would have expected the Duchess of Devonshire to have an onsuit at Chatsworth. Well, I don't know. In those stately homes, the plumbing's notorious, isn't it? There'll only be one WC down a long gallery and past 17 mat rooms and across the boot room. And then it's just a pot anyway. Perhaps a plumber could explain why it might be difficult to install an unsweet in a stately home. Oh my gosh. I mean, I would imagine it's almost impossible

because you need one of those great big soil pipes, don't you? And they only ever go on one side of a house. Is that right? Yes. If your plumbing's on the left side of your house, then you're absolutely stuffed if you want your bathroom on the right. Well, this is what I've been informed by a very well-known post-coded plumbing merchant. I hope it's not misinformation.

If it is, I've been had. I'm learning from you. I did not know that. Please, other plumbing experts make contact. Yes, please do. We need to know that. Otherwise, you have to end up with one of those macerators. And I don't think the Duchess of Devonshire would have wanted a chemical toilet.

I'm just pretty good out there. Inside her bedroom. It's unlikely, isn't it? With that little... And that's a little sign say no sanitary products. I think it's unlikely. I mean, I'm sure I can't picture the lady. I don't even know she's still with us.

But we wish her the very best. Should she be listening? Unlikely. Right. As for Earl Grey not being strong enough. Oh, it never is. It's disgusting. It's avoidable.

Please avoid Earl Grey. I honestly, I think it's one of the most dangerous of substances. Perfumed tosh, don't go near it. Well, we take an unexpected diversion down an alleyway that is inhabited by a meandering conversation about the Duchess of Devonshire's toilet arrangements, which I don't think any other podcasts will be discussing that today, but I could be wrong.

If you hear this elsewhere, never knowingly under what's it. We're just like them. Let us know, Jane and Fiat Times.com. Let's bring in our guest, my glasses have steamed up, so it must be time to welcome Dr. Zand van Tullochan. I was already deep in conversation. We were, I don't know, it's a shame this has to be live. Couldn't you just be my private consultant for the next? It always changes when the microphone comes on.

I try not to make it change too much. Dr. Zand van Tulligan is here, author of Make Me Well, A Quest to Understand the Confusing World. of wellness. I think on the back, the blurb says it's the wild west of wellness. You are an author, you're a broadcaster, just set out your medical credentials. We've just been talking about scientists and trust. We need to know, are you qualified, Zand? I try not to begin sentences with a sort of as a doctor, because I think it can be annoying, frankly. But in this case, I think that credentials are important. So I trained at Oxford, and the reason to say that is

it's a very academic medical school. And so we were really schooled in the scientific literature. And then I did a master's in public health at Harvard. Again, a very academic place. And so I've been a broadcaster for 20 years. I spent 10 years doing acute medicine in the NHS. I'm an honorary associate professor at University College London. So I am familiar with reading and digesting the scientific commentary and the sort of evidence on wellness. And yet I found myself, I'm 48, I want to be well.

I was very confused and I could not answer the questions. Right. I want to get rid of all that confusion. Is the whole thing, the whole supplement thing, is it just a massive con job? So I feel like it is a very confusing place because you don't expect it to be a con job. And 20 years ago, you could have looked at, you know, there were all kinds of cranky things going on. And you could say, well, this is obviously a con. You know, that person does not look.

But now the wellness is sold to us by people from really good universities who are doctors and scientists. And often they have papers in good medical journals to back up what they're saying. So the first thing I would say is no one should feel. gullible, foolish. If they've got swept up in this, so did I. I found it all very persuasive. But it took me three years to write the book. And at the end of it, I basically would say I can save you a lot of money. And I think more importantly, I can save you confusion, anxiety and headspace for the things you want to do. Because the wellness industry, as you see it on the socials, is pretty much selling stuff that I would say is dangerous and does not work. Okay. So not only does it not work, it might be doing you harm. That's the really important.

bit, isn't it? The harms are, there are very many different kinds of harms. So in Make Me Well, I look at supplements, wearable tech and testing. Those are the things that really look and feel very scientific. And if we take the supplements, the supplements can do you harm. For instance, the menopause supplement, Black Cohosh, our medicines regulator has said it should have a health warning on it, and yet there is no health warning on it. It's associated with liver damage, drug interactions. In some cases, something like turmeric is associated with fatal liver. damage. These things are unusual, but turmeric is very, very popular. So the substances can do you physical harm. Even in subtle ways, large doses of vitamin D can be dangerous. Everyone takes vitamin D.

Everyone takes vitamin D, which is why we have to worry about these things. So the things can harm you, but also many supplements are adulterated. I went to China to commission some supplements to be made as a buyer. I stood on the factory floor, watching them being made and I was nervous to say, like, could you adulterate these? Like, I didn't, I'm not good at these sort of awkward questions. And I eventually said, does what's in the bottle, does it have to match what's on the label? Could we cut some corners?

And he got annoyed with me and he said, what are you talking about? You're not listening. And he took the bottle off the production line and showed it to me. And in huge letters on the label, it said, made in USA. I couldn't believe that. Yeah, it's amazing. So there is fraud.

There is a, and the adulterance can be dangerous as well. Turmeric is adulterated with lead oxide, which is not a safe thing to be eating. adulteration, contamination, fraudulent stuff, and the real thing can be dangerous. And that is just scratching the surface of arms. Right. When did our obsession with so-called wellness begin? I think that there are two different kinds of wellness. Taking money from people in return for a sort of promise of longer life and better health is a very old game, right?

You can be selling snake oil in the Wild West and back through history. and there isn't, I think there is, there is animals in a way you could say take supplements, they go to salt licks, they eat particular plants when they're not well. In most of human history, herbal medicines, medicines, love potions, supplements, these things have all been wrapped up together. But wellness emerges as distinct from health in the 20th century where we go, right. There's something about health. Health is sort of evidence-based, the chasing of very particular measurable things,

blood pressure, cholesterol. And wellness is everything else that you might want to feel in your body. that your GP isn't going to help you with. So it might be your park runtime. It might be running a 5K. It might be feeling good or having a glow from your skin. And if you go to your GP, not unreasonably, your GP will say, look, I can't help you with the glow,

you know, but I can measure your cholesterol. So wellness is that stuff. And it has become charged over the last 20 years because you can sell it with science and because we all want more from our bodies. We all want to be sort of opt-in-wise. Well, we actually feel we're entitled to it weirdly, don't you? I think that's right.

I think that's right. And I think social media, I did not want to write a book that just said social media is to blame for everything, but social media has been a big force in changing what we ask for from our bodies and our lives, just like television was. Yeah, okay. Let's talk about wearable tech. You mentioned it.

The watches that tell you how well you slept. Now, I mean, you should know yourself how well you've slept, shouldn't you? So for the book I interviewed, I would say that one of the greatest sleep scientists in the world, Russell Foster, and in the end, I would say, if you want to know about sleep by Russell's book, I did not write a chapter on sleep because there's just so much to say. But essentially, the core bit of wisdom is, trust your body, not your wearable. It is the sleep score is a guess. The thing is not measuring if you're asleep.

So I'm not anti-wearable tech. Wearable tech can be great. If you want to go for a run and see if you went for a run and record that run, wearable tech's great. If you're a cyclist, all fantastic stuff. I wear a heart rate monitor when I do my exercise. No problem at all. But I think it can be dangerous when it starts to look like it's interfering with your health.

And the most dangerous wearable tech gadget, I would say, is the continuous glucose monitor. Life-saving if you have diabetes. But the number of companies and influencers that are selling this piece of medical technology to healthy people to measure their blood glucose, that will take you down a road that will be bad for you in many ways. Okay. We went round the table in the office earlier on. Just this, me and my colleagues. Most of them are women in their 20s.

Vitamin C and zinc was taken by just about everybody. Iron because we have a vegetarian colleague. She felt she needed iron a supplement and B12. Everyone was on vitamin D and we all routinely take that fizzy orange drink. I take it for hangovers. And just on days when I feel less than optimum. And we've got a question here from Andrew. What about cod liver oil?

So let's, shall we start knock off cod liver oil first of all? Well, cod liver oil and vitamin D overlap. So the dose of vitamin D that the NHS recommends 400 international units is the same as a teaspoonful of cod liver oil. And we've got to begin. Coddiver Oil, when I was writing Make Me Well, vitamin D was the hardest chapter to write because it went against what I've said on the television for 20 years. My whole medical education, vitamin D, there was so much excitement.

My grandfather had rickets vitamin D deficiency from his wartime childhood. He had a lifetime of bow-legged, which caused him problems. So vitamin D is real and we do need it. And the NHS advice is very good. but vitamin D is sold to us with a promise of being the sunshine vitamin. It's good for your muscles. It's good for your brain. It's good for your mood. It's good for your heart. Your risk of cancer. And all of that came out of science that was done while I was at medical school in the early 2000s that said, yeah, take a group of ill people and you will find they have low vitamin D. And so maybe if we can top them up, it'll fix all those problems.

Over the last 20 years, about a billion dollars was spent studying vitamin D by scientists who, we, everyone wanted it to work. It's not grumpy, skeptical doctors. We all wanted vitamin D to. work and the trials all said it will prevent rickets. Some people should take it. Follow the NHS cardlands a low dose but the big doses are dangerous and it will do nothing for you other than prevent that deficiency. The people who really could benefit, they're not hearing the messages. It is totally, it is a real tragedy that the people who are taking the vitamin D almost definitely don't need it. And we have a few deaths every year from low vitamin D in this country in breastfed children and we have some cases of rickets and some adult vitamin D deficiency. Those people really need

it. Invariably, they are not taking a supplement. I mean, people get very exercised by breastfeeding, I understand it. Did you imply that a baby being exclusively breastfed? That is the NHS guidelines is that if you're exclusively breastfed, you are at higher risk of vitamin D deficiency and so both the mother and the baby should be taking vitamin D. So this is not breastfeeding. You should feed your child however you want. I cannot emphasize that. A fed child is great. I'm thrilled. But That is the NHS guidelines, which I think are good. But all you're doing, you're not going to make them grow big and strong and win at the Olympics. You're just going to stop them getting rickets and vitamin D deficiency.

What about magnesium, asked Jamie? Magnesium wildly popular. In fact, when I started writing Make Me Well, I thought, oh, this is, you know, I said to my wife, what are we have in the house? Like I was sort of, what are we using? And she said, well, there's two kilos of magnesium in the bathroom. And I said, why do we have that? This massive bag of magnesium.

I have no idea where it came from. So magnesium is extremely popular. It's sold for sleep, for muscle cramps, for a wide variety of things. And again, the wellness industry is brilliant at picking something that we do need. You have to eat some magnesium. And it can be very important for your health. So when I had a heart condition and my heart was not working properly, I was treated with magnesium. But the vast majority of people do not need any magnesium supplements.

And if you take high doses of it, you can cause yourself serious medical problems. So I would say there was certainly no evidence that anyone should be taking it. and I would be very cautious about taking it. Right. I'm getting lots of questions as you can imagine. Oh, goodness. Okay, here we go. Neil says everyone is talking about creatine and collagen. Are they a waste of money? Oh, that's such a good question.

So very different, actually. So collagen, I went to a factory in China where they boil 1.2 million donkeys a year. Yeah, just tell people what collagen is. Oh, sorry. Okay. So before that was to make collagen supplements. Collagen is the most common protein in your body. It's in every animal. and it holds our bodies together.

It's cartilage. It's in your skin. It is the structural protein. It holds our organs together. So it's very important. And it gets worse as we get older. So your wrinkles, your joint pain, you know, everything that you feel about aging. A lot of that is due to your collagen getting worse.

So eating a bit of collagen makes sense. That's what the industry is selling you. And there is some science to say it works. What's the link to donkeys? And so in China, the most luxurious, expensive collagen supplement is made with donkey skin. and there aren't enough donkeys in China and so there's been a huge international scandal where donkeys from Africa have been taken to China

donkey skins have been taken from Africa which causes massive problems for farmers in Africa so this is all part of the collagen story but the big collagen story is the collagen we buy in the supermarket is essentially industrial waste that if you run an abattoir when you're left with the hooves the claws and the skins you boil it up you make collagen it costs 15 quid a kilo if you buy it as a commodity

is a wholesale, and by the time you get it on the high street, it is £300 a kilo. So if you want collagen, I would say the evidence is if you take away the industry-funded studies, it doesn't work. If you want to take collagen and you feel it works for you, make some chicken stock, make some beef broth. That's exactly the same stuff. It will cost you no money at all. It'll be sustainable and be better for you. I want to talk about the menopause because I know lots of our listeners are interested in that.

But let's just briefly mention testosterone because this is, I mean, you ponder at one point in the book about the genuine impact high testosterone doses might be having, I mean, it's not overstating it, on the world order. So it's a very interesting, yeah, I know, when do you say it like that? So testosterone is the thing that I'm marketed most. I'm a 48-year-old man and the symptoms of low testosterone are, you know, tiredness, lack of energy, loss of muscles, low sex drive, lack of sleep, all these things. And I, you know, on any given day, I could tick a few of those boxes. and it is heavily marketed as anyone who's gone on the London Underground knows. And I went down the journey of getting the tests, being recommended the stuff, almost being sold it.

And then I went and interviewed some real expert endocrinologists who essentially said, you can have it if you want it, but it will not do the things that is promised. You will become dependent on it. It will ruin your fertility and it will not give you these benefits. The main benefit is libido and sexual function. And it works for a small number of men for that. Yeah, testosterone was an area where I was particularly targeted. I felt particularly vulnerable. And the evidence that this is useful for large numbers of people is very, very minimal.

But your questions about the world order, if you take lots of testosterone, it does seem to affect your mood, your attitude, and possibly even your politics. So there is this suggestion that as more and more men get their testosterone prescriptions and take large doses in order to get more muscles, These doses are dangerous. They're not the doses we should be taking. It will affect their mood. If you're in a workplace with lots of people taking testosterone, I would be like, I think the atmosphere is going to change. I don't have any proof that that's the case, but I think it's a reasonable concern. And I'm not the only person who's raised it. Okay. So many questions. I wanted to do justice to them. But Rob says, you skipped over creatine. I did skip over creatine.

Well, I did. I did. So creatine, just to say, there are six supplements I found that are effective in certain situations. They're all named by the Australian Institute for Sport, along with. all their evidence and creatine is one of them. So I don't think everyone should be on creatine. I think it is oversold and overmarketed. I don't think it'll cure your brain fog. I don't think it'll help you run a long distance. But for explosive sports,

if you've got all your training right and everything and you're really looking for a marginal gain, there is evidence that creatine will work. And the other ones are caffeine, bicarb, beta alanine, gels in sport, like taking on a bit of energy is good. Those things that on the Australian Institute for Sports website, the gains are small. I don't think everyone should take them, but there are some things that work if you really want to go looking.

The menopause is, it's a time in a woman's life where all sorts of things are going on. And you say in the book, actually your own mother, she went through the menopause and you didn't, like a lot of children, frankly, you took little or no notice. I found it the most heartbreaking chapter to write because it is a place where the medical profession and the healthcare industry has completely failed women in mulberrying. multiple ways. I haven't invested in research. The findings around HRT, the dangers of HRT had been exaggerated and poorly communicated. And that led to women exploring supplements. Oh my goodness. And so you could track. As the Women's Health Initiative study results came out in the late 90s and the association with cancer was widely publicised, HRT prescriptions plummet from 80% of American women postmenopause were taking HRT and getting massive benefit from it. And the prescriptions

fall down to almost nothing. And consumption of menopause supplements. supplements absolutely sores. So the neglect of the medical profession, we are totally complicit in the rise of the wellness profession, the wellness industry. And what you find with the menopause supplements, if you, you know, there are hundreds of different menopause supplements on the market in the UK. They're all different. Many of them contain ingredients that we would not, there's no evidence that they do any good. Many of them contain ingredients like black cohoche, which is the one that I would be most concerned about, which I think should really have a health warning on it. They contain very variable doses, either doses of vitamins that are so low they

couldn't possibly help, or that are so high, they may cause nerve damage and other problems. Well, I think you report a study that reveal that there's no common ingredient. There's no common, if you go and buy lasagna in all the different supermarkets. They've all got mince. You'd go, it's all got mince in it. You know, they've all got tomatoes in. They've all got wheat in, you know, there might be a bit of, you know, are they using time or marjoram? Who knows? But, but they'd agree on some of the ingredients. Menopause supplements, there is no common ingredient to any of them at all. That the most shocking stat in the whole book for me

is that every year around the world we spend $6 billion on menopause supplements and last year the National Institutes for Health recorded funding menopause research at $60 million. So a hundred times less. In the UK we do not record how much we spend on menopause research because we spend so little. That is, it is, no one should feel gullible

for taking these things. I suppose the counterpoint is that HRT's had some good publicity lately. Lots of very famous women really endorsing, going big on HRT. And is that, I mean, do we really want to be on HRT for our entire post-menopause life? So you're raising this. So the extraordinary thing that's happened is that

if you're a woman going through or after menopause, you have been perhaps not, you've found that HRT is both underprescribed and over-prescribed. In that, the pharmaceutical industry, wants you back, you can get half the world's people to be customers at some point. And so HRT is under-prescribed, but it's also oversold. So it is the fountain of youth.

It's going to cure all these problems. And we know from big HRT trials that it is very good at managing the symptoms of menopause, but it will not keep you young forever. It will just sort of keep you your regular self and manage the symptoms. And so HRT, at least the experts I spoke to, and I'm so cautious to sort of go, well, here's how to manage menopause. But the experts I spoke to said HRT's main role is a bridge through menopause to help you manage these big fluctuations in hormones. And I had a very interesting interview with Joyce Harper from University College London who said she's a professor of reproductive endocrinology.

And her main thing, the thing she said, look, I want you to tell people for many people life after the menopause that can seem very bleak, but your career can be amazing. It can be absolutely great and we should be much more optimistic about the menopause. And I thought that was, I know that many people really struggle with it for a long time. But she did say we're so negative about it. But yeah, I think HART is both, is oversold and under prescribed. Yes, which just makes the whole thing incredibly confused. I mean, look, as a guy writing this, I just thought it is not coming my way. In the presence of a woman who's been through the menopause.

You're right to be, you are right to be angry. No, I'm not angry. I am on HART, I should say. That's probably why I'm not angry. Betsy says, well, not as angry as I might be. What about probiotics? Can you take too many probiotic supplements? I think we, yes, it's such an interesting question. So probiotics, the idea that eating the bacteria that live in your gut and colonise your gut can do you good is a very popular idea.

There is very little evidence that high street probiotics will do you any good at all and they are very expensive. And so there are lots of personalised nutrition companies that will test your poo, tell you your microbiome score. Well, you do talk about, we haven't got time, unfortunately, to explore. No, no, and we don't. But I would say be very, very cautious about any of that. And personally, I would not spend your money on probiotics. Fruit and vegetables with lots of fibre seem a great way of nourishing your gut and keeping it safe. But the testing is unreliable and does not give you useful results.

I mean, we are living in an age where some people in California and elsewhere are exploring living forever. Yes. And this is obviously not going to happen to them or to any of us. But it is out there. It's a very real conversation. These men who are measuring the strength of their nocturnal erections. And this is a bizarre planet, isn't it? And getting more bizarre.

My brother said to me that the great thing about being our age is that we will live to see the first of the longevity billionaires die, which is an odd perspective. I mean, die naturally. We don't want them dead. But there will be something a bit gratifying about going, yes, There's been a lot of hype. My old, I have colleagues at Oxford who are teachers of mine who say that their labs are being sort of plundered for scientists to go and work in weird stem cell clinics in the Caribbean to help the billionaires live longer.

It is the thing you said, they are all men. I do not know of any serious big longevity kind of proponent who is a woman. And there is a very sinister and unfortunate association between, some of the prominent longevity science and Jeffrey Epstein, these odd projects, almost you feel like the ambition is to get these men to live longer so that they can abuse more women. I mean, it seems so... Gosh, that's bleak, Zand.

But what, I mean, you look at some of the correspondence between Jeffrey Epstein and some of the big American longevity enthusiasts. They knew what he was doing. They literally were sending him emails saying, oh, your life's so outrageous and I can't tell anyone. but here's how to live a bit longer and let's organise your blood tests and let's sort you out. I mean, so that is, I think that health and wellness are so important and we are so vulnerable in that area that you cannot get good advice about how to live long from a doctor whose main income is from

billionaires who are abusing women and abusing children as well. I mean, this is not, I know every time you mention Jeffrey Epstein that atmosphere in the room changes, but it feels like to have him as a central part of this story and this science just gives you, it should give everyone the ick. We should run a million miles from this stuff. Yeah, the ick and the rest. Zand, fantastic to have you on. Thank you very much. What a treat to speak to you. Thank you so much. Dr. Zand Van Tullochan. I suspect that may have set to a few people thinking about what supplements they have in their life and in their cupboard. It is make me well, a quest to understand the confusing world of wellness. That is Dr. Zand's new book. It's out now.

I'd like to take that away with me if that's okay. You can buy it off me. No, I'd like to take that away with me if that's okay. You couldn't buy it. Anyway, never mind. We could be here forever. We have some parish notices. Yes, we do. So we need to start another book club.

It will be book club number, I don't know. 11, I think. No, I think it's more than that. I think it's more than that, right? Maybe we could add them up. And we'd love some thoughts as to what genre. And we don't have to do something completely different. The USP of the book club has only ever been to read books

that might have slightly passed people by at the time and that we want to revisit. So just anything that's not currently on a shortlist for a massive great big prize, all really out there in the ether. It's 12. It is book club number 12. And we would also love an autumn playlist.

So chuck us a theme for that and we will get both of those things up and running. Well, it could be autumn itself, isn't it? Season of mist and mellow fruitfulness. Close bosom friend of the maturing sun. Correct. Yeah, lovely, lovely. Of course, even in a maturing sun, you do need sunscreen.

You do. And even in a maturing bosom, you do need lift. There's a chap in a war film with sort of cream on his face there, and I don't know what's going on. Oh, that's like the zinc of Shane Worn, isn't it? He was just so well known, wasn't he, as a cricketer for being the first person to kind of pitch up with this great big strike across his face. He was very sensible. Very sensible.

Unfortunately, he didn't do him any good in the end. No. Right, and let's not go down that road. So genres and playlist themes, all of that, if you could do some thinking on our behalf. Please do it. I don't have to. God's sake. Please do it.

And bung them to Jane and Fee at times.org. Bye-bye. See you tomorrow. Congratulations. You've staggered some. to the end of another Offair with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do do it live, every day, Monday to Thursday, 2 till 4 on Times Radio. The Jeopardy is off the scale. And if you listen to this, you'll understand exactly why that's the case.

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