Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Watching The Queen, clutching a 4-pack of toilet roll (with Frank Gardner)

Episode Date: May 29, 2024

Jane Garvey is back! And she has anecdotes aplenty... Brace yourselves! In this slightly bonkers episode, Jane and Fi cover sea-swimming, King Charles' first name and Greek yogurt. Plus, BBC Security Correspondent and writer Frank Gardner discusses his latest book 'Invasion'. You can book your tickets to see Jane and Fi live at the new Crossed Wires festival here: https://www.sheffieldtheatres.co.uk/book/instance/663601 If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiAssistant Producer: Eve SalusburyTimes Radio Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

It sort of gets to about just below your bazooms and you think, I can't do this. And then you think, well, it's now or never. I could turn back or I could just get in there. And I got in there and I honestly felt a new woman. VoiceOver describes what's happening on your iPhone screen. VoiceOver on. Settings. So you can navigate it just by listening.

Books. Contacts. Calendar. Double tap to open. Breakfast with Anna from 10 to 11. And get on with your day. Accessibility. There's more to iPhone. I tell you what, that's all just a whirlwind of bitch. Hello. Yeah, well, not from me. I was actually relatively silent during that.

Relatively. Anyway, I've been away, I'm back. Did anything happen? No, nothing at all. Oh, OK, good. Let's crack on. Right, well, we are going to... I feel like... Have you already made the statement that this is going to be a politics-free okay, good. Let's crack on. Right, well, we are going to... I feel like... Have you already made the statement

that this is going to be a politics-free zone, this podcast? Just slow down. Okay. Hello, James. Hello. Welcome back. Thank you. How was your holiday?

Very good, thanks. Is it nice to be back? Do you know, it is. It is nice to be back. Lovely. And then you say, how are you? How are you? I'm very well, thank you.

Can we get on now? And then you say, how did it go? How did what go? Last week. Oh, how did last week go? Well, it was very busy. Yes. So you have missed a couple of things,

but I think you've probably caught yourself up. Yes, pretty much. Do you know, going away isn't what it used to be, precisely because it's so easy to keep in touch. Yeah. It is odd, isn't it, that you used to be able to go away and genuinely you would be so excited if you saw a four-day-old copy of the Daily Express

in a dust-blown newsagent somewhere and you'd pounce upon it because it was so exciting. But now, you know, you can be on your terrace listening to Times Radio. Did you? Did a bit. Did you? Just a bunch. Well, no, because I just find it irresistible.

But that whole sense of being away is not what it used to be. It's just not what it used to be. No, and I think our brains are worse for that. Because that would have meant, just from your perspective, that you saw that an election might be about to be called. You then interrupted your holiday setting. You then logged in you then started listening to the place where you work at and you would not have been able to switch back

into full-on holiday mode and so what i mean great that you knew at the time but i mean it doesn't make any difference really does it no if you had not found out until the wheels touched down at a london airport then it still would have been fine god i hate flying i was so bored on that flight on the way back it just goes so boring how long was the flight four and a bit hours and we were there was a very long quite a long delay at athens uh and i was i was sat between a couple of Greek citizens who were talking across me. And one, the lady at the window is an exceptionally elderly lady who took an enormous amount of medication during the flight. And for reasons I don't fully understand, got two dinners. So the cabin crew, who were very sweet, actually, gave me a dinner, rather nice, actually.

The cabin crew, who were very sweet, actually, gave me a dinner. Fair enough. Rather nice, actually. But gave her two. They came past ten minutes later and gave her another one. Well, that's interesting, isn't it? Just because she's old. I mean, I'm quite old. Why didn't I get two dinners?

Well, maybe that'll come to you later on, further in time. I tell you what, if you found a four-and-a-half-hour flight long, I took the train to Marseille and back over the weekend. Oh, I like Marseille. All the way. Did you? I'd love to do that, weekend. Oh, I like Marseille. All the way. Did you? I'd love to do that, actually. What was that like?

Well, it was very beautiful. But I mean, it is the whole of France. And I think door to door, it was over 12 hours. And there's a weird kind of moment when you're six hours in, you know, when you really, really... There's enough trains.

...really want to get off. It's just like, I don't think so. It's still on the door doing. It's just like, I don't think so. It's still on the door doing. It's a very, very long time. But I've rather been tempted by that as a prospect. Would you not recommend it? Oh, it was very lovely.

Did you come back on the train? But I went on the Friday and I came back on the Monday and that was too much travelling. So it was as much time travelling as being there. But not the train both ways? Yes. So you did 24 hours on a train? Basically, yes. That's quite a lot. I read

a lot of books, though. A lot of books. What did you read? So I finished off, well, I've got to admit this now, I finished off Stig Abel's book because I hadn't finished it before, but we did interview Stig and I may have suggested that I got

right into it. Oh you lying hound. No, don't say that. I started Andrew O'Hagan's Caledonian Road which is a really, really, really chunky, it is a chunky old book and I'm really enjoying that. I haven't finished that one. Oh is that a recommend then?

That is a recommend and especially if you, I've got no idea how it would feel, actually, if you don't know London and you read it, I suspect it would still be good. But if you know London, it's just got the most fantastic and especially because Caledonia and Rose are not far from where I live. So I really loved all of that. And I also read the book that I did the interview for yesterday, which was Us steyer shat shat shat shat shat might finally have got that one right i do apologize to us nay uh which is called the afghans which is about three young afghans tells the story of kind of modern geopolitics uh and then i did flicky through

magazines so i did kind of two and a half books. It was good. Are you going to make any changes to your life on the basis of what you read in the magazines? Oh, well, probably. Well, I think I'm going to. Try a new eye shadow. Well, I think I'll probably try some core muscles. Oh, yeah. And some flexing.

And maybe increase my planks. A couple of dollops of yoghurt. A handful of nuts. And you'll be a new woman. Oh, speaking of which. Yes, avocados. Oh, God, how could I have forgotten the avocado? Oily fish. Oily fish.

Bring it in. I did, I've massively got into Greek yoghurt. I'd never eaten it before. Stop the world! Stop! Shush! Let's all pause for a moment. And the other thing, swimming in the sea.

So I did it seven or eight times. And, of course... Do you get it now? I do. I always like going into the sea. I mean, I think off the coast of Wales, I did usually require a wetsuit in later life. But in the Aegean, in May, it's parky, but it's not impossible.

And it's such a buzz, as you know. It's that squeak of indignation when you first hit the water. It sort of gets to about just below your bazooms, and you think, I can't do this. And then you think, well, it's now or never, I could turn back, or I could just get in there, and I got in there, and I honestly felt a new woman. It's just bliss, absolute bliss.

And then you only need to be in for 10 minutes you can spend the rest of the day talking about it boring the pants off everybody else and um justifying having a massive plate of big beans the orange pie all those other things you can have in greece what a country it is yeah right well as our listeners may well be shrieking as well uh you have no leg to stand on now if you try and take the piss out of my swimming. No, but you do it at Lido's throughout the year. That's not the same as the wonderful plunge into the Aegean as summer approaches. Are you saying that your swimming is now better than my swimming?

I'm just saying mine's probably easier and more enjoyable. Do you think, though, and then we will move on from the swimming. Do you wear a wetsuit in the Lido? Serious question. No. Okay. Even in March? No.

No. It's a heated Lido. Oh. It's not hot, hot, hot. Right. But it's not that cold either. It's got that geothermal thing. Oh, okay.

So it's always kind of take the edge off heat. Yeah. Do you think, though, that there is something about the it's the waves in the sea that i think becomes really magnetic and addictive because they are magnetic aren't they that's where radio waves come from it is it is that uh ebb and flow and i think there's something that does that really really helps our bodies i've got a little bit avocado and brazil nut there you certainly have yeah i'll tell you what if radio or podcasting ever lets you down, there's a future for you as a guru of health.

There are so many swimming gurus. To get back to my original question, is this podcast going to be kept politics-free? It is. OK. Well, there's a little guarantee for those of you who are just not that interested. I was at the hairdressers yesterday.

I know, hard to believe. And to say there was a lack of interest there in politics. And I think we sometimes need those of us who... Eve, stop it. Thank you. Those of us who live in this weird... It is, actually, if you don't mind me saying. Is it hard to believe?

It's a little. It needed tidying up. It honestly did. I think, actually, genuinely, the sea has an impact on hair doesn't it yes certainly had an impact on wine anyway at the hairdressers no interest at all in fact one woman said to me has it started i said yes it's kind of you know yeah no there'll be lots but there'll be lots of people out there we're obsessed by it that's our world but there'll be so many people who right up until the day before they won't realize really what's going on or care much or care they

won't have listened to any of the manifesto pledges they you know to be honest some of the politicians don't know any of their manifesto in fact we don't have the manifestos yet do we what also happened weirdly to me yesterday on the way to the hairdressers was that I saw the king. You're kidding. It's so odd. How can you have got 17 minutes into the podcast before telling us this? It's a bit odd. Life made. Well, I don't remember if you remember,

but a couple of years ago I went out for toilet roll and saw the queen on a main road. No, I've chosen to forget that. So when she went past with all the outriders in a rick, she was in the back of a Range Rover. I was just standing, gobsmacked at the side of the street, but clutching a four-pack of toilet roll. So I just, I felt a real fall.

Anyway, yesterday, the King went past, I was about 100 metres from the hairdresser's door and they started belling, you know, they bell all the whistles. They blow the whistles and the motorbike outriders come up by and stop all the traffic. And the daimler swept past me. I think he was wearing a grey, it was very quick actually, but he was wearing a grey suit.

I think he had a pink tie or a pink handkerchief. If I'd had more time and more wear with all, I would have waved. But I... What were you clutching? I wasn't clutching. Oh, I had my bag. Because I was going to do some shopping After my haircut And then I went into a coffee shop

And a lovely young girl who was serving said Was that the king? And I said yes I think it was And she said yeah And she turned to her friend And the other girl said What's his name? I said the king

And she went no what's his name? I said well it's Charles They went oh yeah And then the day just carried on I said, the king. And she went, no, what's his name? I said, well, it's Charles. They went, oh, yeah. And then the day just carried on. So sometimes royalty can rock a world. And on other occasions, it just gently passes through a suburb and life just carries on. Flat white, though, £3.90.

Good Lord. £3.90. Do you think when it hits £4, it's time to go? Well, actually, I think you probably... Yeah, it's ridiculous. You make a good point there. A bag of coffee is £4.90. Do you think when it hits £4 it's time to go? Well, actually, I think you probably... Yeah, it's ridiculous. You make a good point there. A bag of coffee is £4 and one coffee is £4. It's crackers, isn't it?

You wear it up as crackers. We're fools to ourselves, actually. It's just ridiculous. You're quite right. I made a faux pas, actually, in Greece. You'd be amazed to hear because I have a habit of making friends literally know where I go. And on this occasion I was in a coffee shop

and the only coffee you've stopped it was an organic shop actually it wasn't a coffee shop keep awake uh but they said they did serve coffee and i said i'll have a cappuccino i'm just gonna text more karens are you still in the building she is i've I've just seen her we can do it naked the bloke said I only do Greek coffee so I said have you ever had Greek coffee? I have, it's very very strong

it's a bit gritty so I said I'll go with it I thought it can't be that bad, I mean it's coffee so you're right, at the bottom there was this sludge but when I got the coffee and I just gestured to my friends and said cheers with the coffee cup, thinking I was sort of slightly ironically

because they were just having water. And he came back and said, no, we don't say cheers in Greece. No, you don't ever say cheers when you're having coffee. I just want you to know he spoke perfect English, of course, like an embarrassing number of people in Greece. He spoke perfect English. And gosh, he gave me quite a lecture then on how it wasn't in any way appropriate. And the Greeks really have a no-no about it.

So I hope I haven't offended Greek listeners or anybody with Greek heritage. And I will never, ever, ever do that again. Right. That was me told. Now, I tell you what, do you, I know that you find the price of coffee too much. And you're absolutely right, so we all should, but do you have a spare £7.50? Yeah, I know what's coming, and the answer is no. Because I could almost get two coffees for that.

So listeners who were downloading the podcast yesterday will know that Honesty Blaze, best name in the world, had sent us this photograph of what was in the College Road Roy Castle charity shop in Crosby. And it is this picture of Adrian Charles, formerly the wife of Jane Garvey, let's call him that, looking incredibly biceppy. Very buff. Now, what era do you think that is?

Well, that looks to me like early days of the one show. He's looking quite butch, isn't he? He's very butch. Which, arms folded, suggests he actually could do a bit of DIY, because he's got one of those rather becoming polo shirts with the exposing the sleeves. You know, there's blokes I like to consult on YouTube when I want to do something.

I know those. And he wasn't that in the flow. Maybe he could have changed. People can. But £7.50 for that. If you were pricing up in the College Road, Roycastle charity shop, what would you price that at?

I'm obviously the wrong person to ask. I'm going to send my mum or dad down there to see if it's still... But I'm going on Saturday, so I could always pop in. £7.50, though. What are they thinking of? Oh, Lordy. It can't be £7.50.

Well, somebody said that my eyesight might be rather poor and it might actually be £1.50. We've looked several times and it does look like £7. It does look £7.50. Yeah. I mean, the frame's nice. He has signed it, in all fairness. I'll see if the kids will buy it.

I tell you what, I might get in touch with Honesty and see if I might buy it myself. I know my birthday's coming up. You've got a big birthday coming up. No, not that feed. No, please. Do you know what? You may not want this to stay in the podcast,

which is absolutely fine if you don't. You and I didn't really know each other very well when we were at Five Live, but you did ask me around to supper one night, dinner, tea, whatever you want to call it. A meal was served at Garvey Child's Towers. And I'll never forget that Adrian answered

the door when I heard some surgical stocking. Well, that could stay in, as far as I'm concerned. I did think, what a guy. Well, you weren't the first, or indeed the last woman to have made that assessment. Now, what else have you got?

He's lost it now. Oh, God. It's nice to have you back. It's really nice to have you back. Um, It is really nice to have you back. Stop it. No, I mean, varicose veins, they're not funny.

No, in all seriousness, it's something I've never had. Have you ever had that? No, I haven't. It was a hot day and he was very short. Yes, get on with it. Right. Eve's actually going to lose control of herself I think we should inject some politics into this podcast Much needed Right

I should say, we do have a guest, thank God It's the BBC's security correspondent, Frank Gardner Who's also a best-selling novelist And I did a bit of reading on holiday but in truth I rather wish I'd had Frank's book with me really because I I really I started it yesterday lunch time and I finished it this morning I mean I really enjoyed it properly enjoyed it so it's called Invasion it's a little troubling and we'll be hearing from Frank in a moment when Fia's pulled herself together I'm sorry I just I just... The image was just...

Now, Becky sent us the most delightful photograph of Tilly, who's recently learnt to be a salty sea dog. I think, Becky, did you also send one of Tilly on a speedboat? We've got dogs on boats as a bit of a theme now. OK. Starting from now. Right, OK. It hasn't been there last week.

I was introduced to your show by my friend Steph. I absolutely love it. We both have little dogs and always listen to your podcast while we walk and we'll then often ring each other and giggle as we relive your stories to each other. Now, what you should have done there, Becky, is either added the fact that you were one of the people

who was bending down to pick up the warm dog poo whilst we were talking about somebody bending down to pick up the warm dog poo. We've had quite a few of those over the last week. Or ask for a tote bag. Can you remember how we're flogging the tote bags? I'm afraid this was something that kept me up one night

while I was away. Because I was trying to remember what the slogan was. Tell a friend get a tote. Yes, I think that's right. And we've awarded our first tote bags. That's gone very well. And this week it will be your choice of emails to go through the pile and award a couple of tote bags. Could you do the Some Seats Now available thing for Sheffield, please?

Yes, this is the Crossed Wires Podcast Festival. Thanks to everybody who's been so enthusiastic and has bought a ticket. We're truly grateful and very excited to see you on Friday evening. Yes, it's coming up. It's this Friday. Nice early start, 7.15, so you'll be home by half nine. At the latest, I would have thought, and tucked up by ten. So that's my idea of a good night. Our guest is, we're at the Crucible Theatre,

and our guest is the Reverend Richard Coles. And he is a man who is so he's just so ripe with anecdote um i don't actually think we're going to say a great deal after he's introduced one question and he's off yeah but we'll be a very very appreciative audience and i suspect there'll be a big um he's a warm hug of a man uh and he's got a lot of life experience To bring to the podcast party Well, we were doing a little bit of promo this morning And actually a couple of things that you said I thought, wow

I mean, he got to number one In his pop star phase With the Communards He then transferred into broadcasting And presenting And ended up presenting Saturday Live On Radio 4 And I tell you what, an award winning, gold Sony

award winning programme. It so is. Who used to present it? She wasn't much a cop. I was always glad when Richard took over to be honest. Asma Mir. Yes, okay. Is that who you mean? No, it was the other lady. Naughty. Nasty, nasty woman. And then took to

writing and straight into the bestseller charts. So it is remarkable to be able to do those three things and do them to the absolute nth. I mean, I've left out Strictly, but he didn't get all the way in Strictly, did he? No. Gosh, the Strictly stories have started already, haven't they? Haven't they just? And they've got a slightly different

timbre to them, haven't they? A slightly different beat. A little troubling. And can I just do a very, very quick one? This one comes from Bronwyn, who says, Miss Piggy turned 50 this year, as I do, in three short weeks. I'd love to hear you both interview her as a feminist icon, fashionista film icon, and all the psss. It would be awesome.

Why do I think that you have interviewed Miss Piggy? Because I have. You have. How did it go? I'm sorry to say, I found it, there's a photograph somewhere, I just found it really irritating because they were very strict around Miss Piggy. She had some really difficult people and the most difficult of the people said to me,

you've got to talk to the pig. I'll just leave it there. Okay. Because I think it's not a real pig. No, no. And did you ask her anything even slightly controversial? You just couldn't? To be honest, I never really liked the Muppets. So it was one of those assignments that I accepted with a rather heavy heart.

I know everyone's meant to enjoy that kind of thing, but I've never been into puppets. I thought Emu was quite funny because the disruptive possibilities with Emu, many and varied, and there was something about that act. It just didn't take variety all that seriously. Do you remember when Emu was on Parkinson?

Yeah. Poking at Parkey's script or whatever it was. And he slightly lost his sense of humour. But we can't be rude about Parkey because he's a legend. He's dead. He's dead now. Respect. Right.

Could you please do an email? Thank you. What wonderful, slick podcasting. This is from Anonymous who's had an experience. You didn't do this yesterday, did you? No. She's had a shameful event. She can't tell a friend or a mum, so she's telling us.

So, OK. I was driving home from the routine food shop when I simply couldn't take it anymore. My thong had been annoying me all day and was cutting into my hip area and rubbing. I'm also becoming increasingly aware that I'm creeping from a size 10 to a size 14 at rapid speed, and the thong was cutting into my skin. I pulled over and whipped it off under my skirt and threw it under my seat.

Job done. Thong thrown out of sight. This morning I took my car for its MOT, and yes, the garage is quite some distance away as I've recently moved house and trust the particular mechanics I took it to. I smiled and handed the chap my key and then I walked the 45 minutes home. It decided to rain, which added a layer of pathetic fallacy to this moment. Gosh, we get a good class of email. I should say so. As I walked a soggy walk to my front door, the dreaded realisation of what I'd done dawned on me. My knickers. And what increased the further

pounding in my chest and the tears to pinch my eyes was that A, these knickers had been dragged from the back of my drawer. I hardly wore them as they were not the ones to be caught in if I was to have an unfortunate accident, and B, they were a little discoloured and should really have been used as a rag. They were also flesh-coloured. I explained the situation to my amused mother and she said, but they won't go under your seat. And I said, oh yes, Mum, I'm short, so the chap will put his hand under my seat to pull the bar forward

so he can get his legs in and he will find my thong dangling from his index finger gosh i mean she's right she was overthinking but she's right so i did have to collect the car uh no it didn't pass its mot and no the men didn't say anything, but they knew. Oh, yes, they knew. I will be finding a garage close to home from now on, writes Anonymous, whose local mechanics have had a jolly good... I bet they have. ...athathon.

But we all have those pants, don't we, that linger right at the back of the drawer. Sometimes I put my hand right to the back and to my absolute delight find an unworn pair. You know when you buy a packet of three and you just stick them in the drawer and one goes right to the back? And it's just like Christmas Day.

And you know sometimes when you find a fresh pair of tights which are still folded? Oh, yes. Oh, I'm taking a fresh pair like that to Sheffield. Are you? OK, you can wear tights. Well, it's going to be quite cold. Have you seen the forecast? No, I haven't actually. Have you that to Sheffield. Are you? OK. You can wear tights. Well, it's going to be quite cold. Have you seen the forecast? No, I haven't actually.

You've been to Sheffield. I have. I've been twice. OK. Well, I think I'm led to believe it can be a little blowy. Yes, it was pretty chilly both times. So, incidentally, says Anonymous, I'm not married, but I was ready to create a fictional husband if said knickers were there to be seen by all and fake utter shock by saying that my husband was the last to use the car and those nasty little knickers

don't belong to me so she even gone as far as inventing a husband that she could lump the blame on should they mention the pants do you always get a slightly sinking feeling as well when you do wear the emergency pants that that will be the day when you're admitted to A&E not with something terrible but you do have to be seen by a doctor and the strange doctor will see your incredibly bad pants. And we all have those greying

but familiar assistants in the pant department. Actually it was one of the reasons I nearly hand-washed a pair of pants in Greece last week because I was slightly running out. Oh, gosh. But they were so awful, the pants, I could have washed them. I would have had to pin them up on the line with other people's offerings. I didn't bother. Oh, gosh.

Just turn them inside out. VoiceOver describes what's happening on your iPhone screen. VoiceOver on. Settings. So you can navigate it just by listening. Books. Voice over describes what's happening on your iPhone screen. Voice over on settings. So you can navigate it just by listening. Books, contacts, calendar, double tap to open. Breakfast with Anna from 10 to 11. And get on with your day.

Accessibility, there's more to iPhone. Do you want to introduce Frank? Frank Gardner, moving swiftly from knickers you've turned inside out to the BBC security correspondent, Frank Gardner. Also a best-selling writer of very pacey spy thrillers. Now, his latest one is out now. It's called Invasion and it centres on China and Taiwan and once again features the MI6 agent Luke Carlton. But he doesn't operate on his own.

So in the first one, Pisces, where he goes to Colombia, he has to take a lawyer with him. I like to think that this is one of the first spy novels where the main character has to take a lawyer with him, because that's the reality. They don't necessarily go on missions, but everything, every operation has to be legal right from the get-go,

because they got themselves in a terrible mess, MI6, in the past in places like Libya, where they weren't doing things that were entirely legal. So they're a bit more careful about that nowadays. Mostly, Luke Carlton operates alongside Jenny Lee, who is obviously a fictional character, but she's an expert in CBRN, chemical, biological, radiological and nuclear. And on this particular trip, she's doubly useful because she speaks Mandarin. Yes. And that's because this book, Invasion, which I read, I just basically devoted yesterday to reading this book.

And I finished at breakfast time this morning. Wow. And no, it galloped along. It's such a good thriller, really, Pacey. But it's about Taiwan and China, and it's called Invasion. So let's start there. Just how close are we to China deciding that the time is right to take Taiwan? I don't think China wants to invade Taiwan. It wants Taiwan

back inside the fold as it considers it. Beijing considers that Taiwan is a renegade province and it needs to be brought back under Beijing's rule. Taiwan is not independent, but it's a self-governing democracy. And it is very liberal. It's the first country in Asia to legalize same-sex marriage. It's a very kind of benign, calm, nice place. But I think it's only recently woken up to the real threat from China. It really started with Nancy Pelosi's visit, the Speaker of the US House of Representatives,

when she infuriated Beijing by making an official visit to Taiwan. China doesn't like seeing any kind of international figures visiting Taiwan. And so it responded with, as it has done recently, with a series of drills, military exercises, basically trying to isolate the island. China would much rather that Taiwan decided on its own to rejoin Beijing. I don't think there's any chance of that. So rather than invade it, I think it would be more likely to try and strangle it until it gives up, to cut it off from the internet, cut it off from maritime trade, make it impossible for planes to fly in and out of its airports.

That would be an easier option than massing two million troops and doing a huge, great big amphibious invasion and possibly risking a war with the United States. We shouldn't forget or underestimate the technological significance of Taiwan and what it makes. I must admit, I learned quite a lot from this book about its nanotechnology and its semiconductors I knew about, but I didn't realize just how significant a supplier of semiconductors this country is. This conversation you and I are having now almost certainly contains tech that's made or designed in Taiwan. So the Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Company at a place called Hsinchu in the northwest of Taiwan produces over 90% of the world's high-end, so something like 94% of high-end microchips. Now, other

countries have tried to match this, not just China, but the Netherlands and the US. No one has got to quite the level that the Taiwanese have. So whoever controls the TSMC in Hsinchu in an industrial park there has got their hands around the throat of the global economy because these things, they power not just phones, but cars, satellites. So much of the tech that fuels our everyday life depends on the microchip industry. And Taiwan are the leaders in that. So as the UK, we have to care about what happens to Taiwan. We can't say, oh, it's just a tiny place, although it isn't that tiny, actually, in population terms, and it's thousands of miles away. It actually really, really matters.

So it does. This is why, Jane, in the book, I've interspersed the kind of action scenes and the stuff that takes place in Hong Kong and Macau and Taiwan. I've interspersed that with imaginary COBRA meetings. That's the government's emergency at the Cabinet Office briefing room meetings in Whitehall, where the prime minister says rhetorically, he looks around the room, he looks down the table, and he says, right, let's just work this one out. Why should we care about Taiwan? It's a long way away. Most people have never been there. Quite a lot of people probably think it belongs to China anyway. So why are we getting involved in this, in a conflict that's miles away? And then his national security advisor, who's quite hawkish and very ambitious, says, right, let me set this out. This is why we should care. And so it's partly about democracy and trying, you know, the same reasons that the West has helped Ukraine defend itself.

That's why that's one reason why the US will certainly want to step in and try and defend Taiwan. U.S. will certainly want to step in and try and defend Taiwan. I mean, it is legally committed to helping Taiwan defend itself, but it's not legally obliged to send troops. And that's the big question. It's called strategic ambiguity to try and keep Beijing guessing as to what the U.S. response to a Chinese land grab on Taiwan would be. And President Biden slightly slipped up, I think it was last year, where he said, yeah, absolutely, we're going to join in and help defend them. And then his aides had to rush in and say,

no, actually, what the president meant was it's still strategic ambiguity. We're not going to say one way or the other. But the whole paradigm, Jane, has changed in recent years because of missile technology. China, the People's Republic of China, has got a massive and still growing arsenal of missiles, the Dongfeng family of missiles, which many of which are hypersonic, meaning they can travel at Mach 5 or faster. And if they can get the guidance sorted, it's not easy to hit a ship that's moving,

but they are working on the guidance systems. And that is a severe deterrent to the US 7th Fleet from going too close to the Taiwan Strait. How much longer, I mean, this is probably a silly question in some ways, but how much longer can that one party continue to dominate such a vast country with a highly educated population of people, some of whom now have quite a lot of money to spend, but they live in the grip of this one party totalitarian state? this one party totalitarian state with these ancient men with their quite badly dyed hair, occasionally meeting for these congresses or whatever they call them. Do you honestly believe that can carry on for the next decade or so?

I think there's a high chance. Yes, it can. I mean, you know, I'm old enough to remember Tiananmen Square, which was what, 1135 years ago, roughly. And there were a lot of people saying, this is it, democracy, it's coming to China, it's the end of the Chinese Communist Party's grip on power. It hasn't been. A great deal depends on the figure of Xi Jinping. He's in his early 70s. His sights are set on 2049. Now, he may not be alive in 2049. But long before then, that is the centenary of the founding of the Chinese Communist Party, when China became the People's Republic of China, Party when China became the People's Republic of China, 1949. And long before then, he wants to see Taiwan, as he sees it, reunited with the motherland. It's become a kind of all-consuming goal for him. China's got big, rather more mundane problems than that. It's got an employment crisis, a housing crisis, property crashes, terrible pollution.

It relies a lot on coal-fired power stations. So it's got things to deal with at home. And this, if they do make a move on Taiwan, the effects on the global economy would be massive. And that would affect China, too. would be massive. And that would affect China too. So, you know, you can isolate Russia from the Western economies with some degree of success. I mean, although we are actually indirectly still importing Russian oil and gas, but you can't isolate China. It is far wired into the global economy and the global supply chain. China. It is far wired into the global economy and the global supply chain.

Well, it's also infiltrated any number of British institutions. I remember going to a broadcast journalism course some years ago at a university and almost a quarter of the students were Chinese. And the lecturer told me they wouldn't be able to use what they'd learned, but they would know how the West did it, if that makes any sense, which just seems bizarre. And we know there are loads of institutions in Britain that, well, really rely on Chinese students coming over. There is a growing realisation that, and it's only really quite recent that legislation has been introduced to make it a crime to be working for a foreign agency in this country. There is a real concern that in some cases, the curriculum in British educational institutions is not necessarily being altered,

but is being affected by Beijing's wishes where they've got a significant investment in it. So, yeah, there's a growing awareness of that, I think. But I mean, you know, China, unlike Russia, China is a massive economic power. It is the second biggest economy in the world. Russia's got a tiny economy. Yes, it produces lots of oil and gas, but its economy is about the size of Italy's, you know, for this vast country that stretches across time zones. China, on the other hand, has just got a huge economy that is, they've been quite far seeing the Chinese, they've looked over the horizon. When I say Chinese, I mean, the People's Republic of China. And they thought, right, what's going to be the stuff that people need? Solar panels, electric vehicles, AI. And they are determined to be ahead of the game on that. And they're succeeding. Well, on that, should we be worried about electoral interference

from China or indeed anybody else? Yes, we should. Absolutely. I mean, you know, something like two thirds of the world is going to the polls this year. We've already had some elections, but, you know, we've got big ones to come, especially in November. I mean, the larger threat is considered to come from Russia because it's got a proven track record in electoral interference. And this can be in lots of different ways. record in electoral interference. And this can be in lots of different ways. This can be activating troll farms who are not directly linked to the state, but are basically doing the state's bidding. Not necessarily in Russia, but it could be North Korea, it could be Iran, it could be China. And they have the capability, should they choose, to really try and make a mess of our elections by putting out lots of disinformation, deep fakes.

I mean, just think about it. Some time ago, a few months ago, a lot of people in the northeast of the US got phone calls from somebody sounding exactly like President Joe Biden saying, don't bother voting in these little elections. Save your vote for November. It wasn't him. It was a deepfake. Very finally, Frank, in this book, you suggest that the Chinese have begun to effectively genetically modify their troops. Could that be real? I'm told it is real. It's not being done to scale. It's still experimental. Somebody very senior, and I better not say who, somebody very senior in the British military told me

it's something they are quite concerned about. The genetic manipulation, injection, for example, of human bodies with something called respirocytes, I probably mispronounced that, but these are sort of artificial red blood cells that enhance the body's capability. So for example, to be able to cope with far fewer hours sleep or to be able to breathe under or hold your breath underwater for much longer to give your sight enhanced vision. to water for much longer to give your sight enhanced vision.

And it's all part of kind of linking up human facilities, human bodies' capabilities to tech. So it's a kind of, it's pretty weird stuff, this. It's not being done to scale, but from 2016 onwards, the People's Republic of China has not published their data, their research on this stuff. So I'm told it is a thing. Yes. That was Frank Gardner, BBC security correspondent and best selling novelist.

And what did you read on your holidays? Oh, I read, you know, I've started David Nichols and it's not my favourite. I'm sorry. No, I'm sorry. I just have to be honest. I slightly hit a bit of an impasse. Just slightly. Do you think, though, that's because it is covered in hype? Maybe it's that. And there were three other people on the holiday with the same book. Oh, goodness.

So, I tell you what, he's making a few quid, and good luck to him. So maybe it was that. So I read a book by Benji Waterhouse called you don't have to be mad to work here but which is about being a psychiatrist which i found it was really interesting because it was partly about his own life and his childhood and his family and also about the mental health challenges that the nhs is let's be honest battling to deal with i thought that's a really interesting book. Recommend that to anyone who's either in the profession or maybe thinking of joining it or medical profession I'm talking about or just has an interest in the NHS.

So that was good. And then I read a thriller called Hunted by, I'm going to say, Amir Mukherjee. He's a well-known writer. He's written detective stories in the past. This is his first thriller. And that was great. That was really, really really good women harmed um oh god that's a good question um well yeah but it was a bit more complicated than that there wasn't a female victim as such it's a

bit more of a it's a bit more of a caper but that does it an injustice it's about the american presidential election and basically a a far right group and what it wants to do to disrupt it but there's a lot more to it than that okay sounds good it's recommended it's very pacey and it's one of those books that's short chapters following a different character so keeps you keeps you guessing but you never get bored lovely we are going to announce our summer read book Book Club book number seven, and we will do that on Thursday. So last minute suggestions, and then we'll do that thing we did before, which was quite good, wasn't it? It was very democratic, Jane, where we separated all of

the suggestions into piles, and everybody went through their individual piles. So we have done a little bit of research on every book. Yeah, do think that that was a very good idea not just because i won last time yeah it just worked yeah i don't know why i did that comedy list there sorry i'm out of i'm out of practice and i'd like to apologize to everybody in greece i offended um just in case you're listening i'll tell you what jane cheers don't say that goodbye Goodbye. listener status for you for getting through another half hour or so of our whimsical ramblings otherwise known as the hugely successful podcast off air with jane garvey and fee glover we missed the modesty class our times radio producer is rosie cutler the podcast executive producer it's a man it's henry tried yeah he's an executive now if you want even more and let's face it who

wouldn't then stick times radio on at three o'clock, Monday until Thursday, every week, and you can hear our take on the big news stories of the day, as well as a genuinely interesting mix of brilliant and entertaining guests on all sorts of subjects. Thank you for bearing with us, and we so you can navigate it just by listening books contacts. Contacts. Calendar. Double tap to open.

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