Off Air... with Jane and Fi - We are the weirdos (with Sir Trevor Phillips)

Episode Date: July 10, 2024

Jane lists the qualities she looks for in a partner - please grab a pen and paper! After that, they cover wheelie bins, oven temperatures and more abattoir stories. Plus, broadcast legend Sir Trevor Phillips joins Jane and Fi to share his thoughts in light of our new government. Our next book club pick has been announced! 'Missing, Presumed' is by Susie Steiner. If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiPodcast Producer: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

We had that terrible year of the Randy guinea pigs, where we were just basically running a guinea pig fight. I just didn't realise that the children would mate with their parents. Right. It is, as we speak, it's Wednesday. I tell you what, it would be quite something if you were injured. Not seriously, Jay. Not seriously. In no way

maimed, but if you did incur a slight injury from your own branding. Branded foam banner landing on your bonce when you least expected it. Look, we love the Lady magazine, or at least I do.

Well, you do because you nick it. I literally. Well, you do, because you nick it. I literally... Well, you gave it to me yesterday. I didn't even manage to open it. It just got taken. Who's on the front? That's Twiglet, isn't it? Isn't that Twiggy from the 60s?

It is. It's old Twiggy. Go for a wee. If you need one. Eve needs a wee. That's not me, that's Eve. In the personal section, I just love this. I mean, just get straight to the point. Regal lady would like to meet gentleman 65 plus with an estate. Have you had any replies?

As you well know, I am not 65. Oh, I see. No, she's looking for a gentleman who's 65 plus. But I just think, I mean, in a way, fair play to the woman. I mean, she's looking for a gentleman at 65. But I just think, I mean, in a way, fair play to the woman. I mean, she's... Yeah, and the problem with hinges, you haven't got that option. Can you not put estate? Estate, no.

No. Estate car, possibly. But no, she just wants an estate. Another person is looking for luxury holidays, weekends away, good sense of humour essential. Yeah, they're married, aren't they? I don't know. I don't know.

Well, I think it's an intriguing code that's used in the personal. I'm so innocent. I really am, actually. Oh, yeah. No, I know what you mean. Right. I did for years and years think that TV just meant that you really liked watching BBC One. What does it mean?

Well, it was used as the acronym for transvestites. Oh, was it? Oh, I didn't know that. So really weirdly, Jane, and I suppose there's no harm in admitting this now, I used to be fascinated when we got the Sunday, we got one big Sunday paper, Sunday Times. As a child? Yes, back in the Winchester.

I don't think we got a daily paper in the house. And I was always fascinated we got a daily paper in the house. And I was always fascinated by the personal ads, the property ads, and the car registration ads. So I did read the news. But, you know, back in the day, those were massive pages and they were big earners for newspapers. Oh, yeah. And it was always just quite funny,

you know, the personal registration numbers. Oh, I see, people selling personal numbers, yeah. I don't know why, but I was always just quite funny. The personal registration numbers. Oh, I see. People selling personal numbers. Yeah. I don't know why, but I was always fascinated by those. We know someone here who's got a bit of a personal number plate issue. Well, it was quite funny because a matte BMW, I mean a whopper of a car, was spotted parked very near the Shard

with a very recognisable name on the number plate and it was photographed and circulated, wasn't it? Yes, very childish. And you shouldn't laugh at colleagues. We'd be the last people on earth. No, but also, I mean, it is possible that it doesn't belong to that employee. Well, it's an extraordinary coincidence, isn't it?

Yes. Anyway, just let us know how it goes. Yes, I will. And how many people respond to your inquiries. Old bloke with large estate. That's what she's saying. If you were going to write an ad for the person that you would like to spend a bit of time with,

what would it say? Oh, that's a good question. I'm not bothered about an estate. I think a good sense of humour probably would be essential. Interest in sport and current affairs. Yes, this is good. This is all good. Do they have to enjoy a lovely Sunday lunch and a country walk?

No. No, there's a lot of that going on. Well, yeah, there is. I don't mind a Sunday walk to Sainsbury's local and back sometimes. So, yeah, you know, you can, all of that, all of the, yeah. If they tick those boxes, great. Don't need to have their own hair or indeed any hair. Okay, this is all good.

Would you value kindness? No. Okay. No, of course. I mean, surely everybody would value kindness wouldn't they well I don't think a lot of people put it down as a as an attribute that they're looking for actually and I think I I wouldn't want someone who always wants to come first well just border that this is very difficult isn't it because good sense of humor, one person can regard that as somebody who's a cracking card.

Yes. But it might not be everybody's cup of tea, might it? And also, it kind of depends on whether you want someone who's going to find you immensely funny or expect you to find them immensely funny, because those are actually two very different things, aren't they? So it is interesting. So lots of the dating websites, they do ask you to sum yourself up in three words,

which is, I don't know, a bit tricky. And we've talked about this a little bit before, haven't we? Miriam Margulies has got a fantastic list of, I think it's 50 questions that you should ask people when you first meet them to really find out a bit more about them. Are we supposing that Miriam herself, because she does a lot of talking, does she really ask 50 questions?

It's a very, very astute observation you've made there, Jane. It's been over a year since I shared a dressing room with Miriam Margulies. I think you've had more recent experience. Yes. It's not that much more recent, but yeah. But there are better questions to ask, aren't there? And we will take all of your suggestions about that.

And if anyone listening out there has a good sense of humour, actually tell us, what does that mean? You raise a really good point there. Does it mean a willingness to laugh at other people's jokes or just remarks or just laugh along with their sense of humour? Or does it mean someone who comes into the room like, I don't know, like some Butlins entertainer. Something happened to it, studio!

Exactly that. But I think we've both had experience of that sort of thing and we've danced around it since. Anyway, nothing wrong with a shiny jacket and an entertaining chap. Actually, I don't know about that. No, but do you know what, Jane?

In all sincerity, you would need somebody so super sharp you would need somebody with an absolute pinpoint accuracy in terms of the world facts, knowledge why? because I'd correct them

you would find it incredibly annoying if you were with somebody who wasn't as intelligent as you. You just would. Oh, my God! You would, yeah. Perhaps that's been my trouble in the past. Oh, my goodness.

Well, anyway, I hope he's not listening. Sure he won't. Right, OK. Let's read the email really quick. Oh, God. Right, I had my garden done this morning. Thank you for asking. It's all gone pretty well.

And I arrived at 8.30. It's also a big day for me because I'm getting... You have wheelie bins, don't you? Have we had this conversation? Our area has just got new wheelie bins. Now, you wouldn't think that was that significant, but there's been quite a lively campaign locally. Quite a bit.

To stop them. Yeah. So some people have put signs out saying no to Hammersmith and Fulham wheelie bins. Well, they change an area forever. They're really ugly. What do you mean they change an area forever? Well, once you've got, so let's say you've got an average London house that has been separated into three flats.

Oh, well, that's, yes. So you've got three lots of, we have a black bin for ordinary refuse. We have the garden waste bin, which is brown. And we have a green waste bin as well. And we've got food bins, blue food bins too. I've got a grey food bin. That's between 12 and 15 bins outside a house. I take your point.

That is a lot. I'm surprised by the ferocity of the feeling that some people have anti these bins, because there are some houses near me that are really lovely old cottages, which probably would be really outshone, if you like, if they had two of these substantial bins outside their property. And as you say, if you've got multiple occupancy in one of those big old houses then then the front of your house is just covered in bins i guess that is true perhaps i haven't given this enough thought people can tell us what they think but i am shocked actually by the amount of food i've had to put in my food bin and i now realize that actually i think it's going to have quite a profound effect on us not chucking food away. To be fair, it's me that chucks the most food away. The kids are pretty good at eating everything available.

Well, I will be really interested as to what kind of habits it changes because we've had those blue bins for ages in Hackney. And I know that I throw more food away because I've got a blue food waste bin than I do if, you you know whenever I go somewhere else stay somewhere else I'm much more careful because I think it encourages you to think that you that it's okay to throw it away because it is being composted and it is being recycled yeah no and I surprised myself by doing that um I didn't I didn't really realize I was actually until we did an interview with somebody about food recycling. It was Gino De Campo.

But I chucked more food away, which really goes completely against what he was trying to suggest, wasn't it? Never mind. Well, let's have another attempt of forgetting Gino De Campo, shall we? We've tried. You did reasonably well.

Now he's come back. I just like this anecdote from Joanna my niece is now a mother of two herself she was about two years old and was being looked after by granny when granny found

a wee on the stairs the conversation went like this oh gosh there's a wee on the stairs never mind at least it isn't a poo my tiny serious faced niece

replied the poo is under your desk thank you Joanna that really made me laugh My tiny, serious-faced niece replied, The poo is under your desk. Thank you, Joanna. That really made me laugh. Oh, dear. Right, this is anonymous. Love the podcast. You two never fail to start my day with a smile. Thank you. Love the show.

I've been through the same email sign-off dilemma that you were discussing recently. I find it particularly tricky if communicating with the same colleague several times in one day, as it seems odd to sign off formally each time. And although this is certainly not suitable for client contact, I now use laters as an unchartered sign-off for internal mail, and it never fails to get a good response from recipients. Even our MD laughed when he saw it and said he loved it. I can't even remember where it came from, but it has solved my sign-off dilemma.

Laters and on. Please may I have a tote. I introduce my best buddy of 55 years to your show. She's now an avid fan too. It is her 60th birthday in a few weeks' time and I'd love to surprise her with one of these much sought after items as part of her birthday bundle.

Well I'm going to say yes to that. Yes. Definitely. We don't know her name. Well we do and we've got the address but she wanted to remain anonymous for the body of the email but not for the gift. Right. Okay. Yes we won't just stick a tote bag in an envelope and hope for the best.

Congratulations to the friend who's celebrating their 60th birthday, that sounds. It'll be fabulous. I haven't had a celebration to mark my 60th now. They're getting on for 48 hours. Are you all right? Yes. I really do want to say that's done. We've been talking about trad wives and um i think this is very important

this it's um about a life experience let's face it could have happened to to any of us or pretty much any of us i ended up leaving my career when our second baby was born six weeks premature and with a rare syndrome one parent needed to give him and his older sister time we made a choice between me as a physiotherapist or my husband as an engineer. I had the skills needed. It did leave us financially struggling. So I became a trad wife by default as we needed me to cook from scratch, learn to decorate and garden and just get on with life. We got used to me being at home and I found a role that supported us. I got time off at the weekends and holidays

with my husband happily cooking and taking over the homework. It wasn't easy at times and when the children left home I really did struggle. I did go back to work but then went straight into caring for elderly parents because once again my skills were most suited to it. Financially I'm dependent, my mental health does suffer sometimes and i lost sight of me compared with some of my friends but and there's a plus side here our children knew i was there they weren't pushed to nursery or school when they were poorly and school holidays were relaxed i never got bored because i created a role and it did allow my husband's career to progress quickly and eventually financially it got easier so there is somebody who has had to make what you might call a practical

compromise and it's worked out and by the way this is important our son Willie out did all expectations and is absolutely fine but he did get one-to-one therapy every day and that's I don't know whether that's one-to-one just because you were there to our correspondent or whether there was actual provided therapy every day for the little boy involved there. But it's fantastic news to hear that he's done so brilliantly. And I do get that. I get that sometimes life just comes at you

and you do find yourself doing something you wouldn't have imagined that you'd be doing. And isn't the key phrase in that that our lovely correspondent made the role her own? Yeah, yeah. So felt some, I hope, fulfilment. Took pride in it. Yeah, and satisfaction.

But I do get that whole business of losing herself, losing me. Oh, God, definitely. But do you know what, Jane? So we got quite a few emails about this and obviously, you know, you have to find your own path in life, don't you? But I think that there are also women who really find themselves lost

when they are expected to still be the person that they were at work before having children. And actually, it's not really trad wife, is it? We're talking about parenting here. Yeah. Not just marrying somebody. Just. Marrying somebody.

Just. You know what I mean? If only. So it's so difficult. And I think female identity, you know, we're quite new to talking about it in a way that we deserve to talk about it. You know, what is our identity? What would we like it to be?

I know that men struggle with that too I think women moving into the workforce you know in such a huge and about time way um you know that has changed our conversations about identity and our expectations of ourselves I don't know whether either of our mothers would fully be able to engage in a conversation about female identity and I don't mean that as a criticism. No, and I completely agree. But I think sometimes exactly that has left us a little bit at sea because, you know, you didn't quite know what it was

that you could do, should do, felt comfortable with, could talk about with your parents. You know, I don't know whether we'll find it easier to talk to our daughters or for them to talk to us but i think it's a really fascinating topic and can i just do jess in hampshire who says i'm glad i'm not the only one who enjoys pottering about and being quietly productive whilst processing my many thoughts i've spent a number of years in the trad wife role while raising our three children as well as being a vicar's wife which brings with it a load of other stereotypes yes i do like baking no i don't do flower arranging and if i tried my grandmother would turn in her grave in horror i wasn't able to settle just for this though and did a lot of

volunteering in the local community usually accompanied by a toddler or two i went back to work a few months ago and as well as learn how to do my role i've had to rapidly reassess my entire identity as a now working mum. It has been a really difficult adjustment, not being around for my children as much. However, I have discovered my husband is actually much better at cooking than me when questioned how he cooked the fish just right.

He said that he had just followed the instructions rather than stick everything in at 200 and hope for the best, which is my general slapdash strategy. Well, I mean, mine's for me. Mine too. Thank you for seeing me through my commutes home. Your podcast chats pick me up after difficult ways. And also, thank you, and this is really you, Jane,

for raising appreciation for social workers a few weeks ago. I'm working towards restoring my social work registration and I see my colleagues work tirelessly every day to support children and families with little thanks. It's true that the nearly only attention they get is negative when they do such difficult and important work, the majority of which is not reported. So thank you very much indeed for that.

We've got loads more about trad wives and some of them are quite long and we do want to give them enough time so we will pepper them through future editions of the podcast i'm glad other people are a bit uh confused by temperatures i i said at 200 actually i'm a 180 person are you if i'm not sure i genuinely still believe if i shove it in at 200 just cook quicker i can get to it sooner surely that's true it is but not necessarily necessarily nicer. Neither of us have a scientific bent, as you may have picked up. David says, glad to hear you acknowledge the hard work done by the counters on election night. But please, if you will, a shout out for people like me who toiled all day at the polling stations.

It was a long shift from 6.15 in the morning to 10.30 at night, but demonstrated to me as a first-timer democracy and community at work. And David is in Aberdeenshire. David, quite right too. I'm glad that you had a good night and that you feel appreciated by this podcast, which does love everybody involved in the democratic process. Elaine, on the other hand, was watching telly all election night. She tried Channel 4, but couldn't stand Nadine Dorries for longer than three minutes. Switched to the BBC, it was really boring.

ITV also rubbish, and I don't have Sky. What a wonderful evening. Delighted with the result, but the very best part of a new intelligent government... It's early days, though, Elaine. ..is that I'm not worried about politics anymore. I didn't hear either of you on the government, it's early days though Elaine, is that I'm not worried about politics anymore. I didn't hear either of you on the night I'm afraid. Thanks a bundle. God, you tried everything else. Oh blimey. Well, I mean blink and you missed us.

Yes, well indeed. Blink twice and you missed a lot. My mum said, oh, who are you working for? And I thought, well, hang on. Who does she think I'm working for on election night? Sometimes I do wonder. Does Mo listen to the station? She listens to... Funny enough, she tunes in at about a minute to two.

Does she? She does, yeah, absolutely. She's very loyal of her. And off again at four o'clock. No, no. No, I think she keeps it going. Yeah. Dad's not interested.

Right. Well, one out of two. Can't be bad. Nicky's in Gloucestershire. My friend's mum, Jenny, got me listening to you both back at the old place and I adore your podcast, often chuckling to myself. I'm feeling a bit uncomfortable

reading out all of the nice bit now. I might just stop. You can do that for a while. I'll pick it up in a couple of weeks' time. I know it's a bit nauseating it is a bit isn't it i was just listening to your interview with tom heap uh which actually lots of people have thoughts about tom heaps into and i agree that we should educate children about food i'm passionate about good food and i talk to my children who are seven and five all the time about where it comes from welfare standards eating happy animals etc we believe you should eat less, better quality food.

This year, we decided to get some orphan lambs, which we bottle fed for six weeks. One was in the kitchen for two weeks as it was very weak. And we plan to take them to the abattoir in October and they will be going into the freezer. The children know this is the plan. I can update in November once it's all been done. Perhaps you'd care to join us for roast lamb or shepherd's pie.

I could also throw in a side saddle riding experience if you wanted. Blimey, there's everything on for that. There certainly is. Please can I have a tote bag? I think you probably can, Nicky, in Gloucestershire. But look, you have to get back in touch with us in November and let us know how all of that has gone. And I don't know, would you ever take your seven and five year old on that journey to

the abattoir? I'm thinking maybe that's not on the cards, but definitely, definitely, if you can talk us through, you know, how that conversation goes uh later we'd be very grateful i know my children would find it unbelievably unbelievably difficult to say goodbye to an animal that we had raised but they both eat meat so i really see the hypocrisy in all of this and it's a circle i'm not managing to square at all at the moment i I know. I'm a hypocrite too. There was a terrible story yesterday, happened to see it in The Times, genuinely, about an abattoir and some awful practices going on there.

And I have to say that on the basis of what I read yesterday, I'm not eating pork. That's gone for a Burton. But do I occasionally fancy a steak? Yeah, absolutely. Anyway, here's another abattoir story. This is from Vanessa. My uni friend married a farmer in Cheshire

and every year I would make the journey with my son from Suffolk to visit the farm. My son would spend his days in overalls and follow my friend's husband around the farm, playing at being a farmer. One afternoon I asked my friend where my son was and she said, oh, he's gone to the abattoir with Andrew. He was four and had just started school. The following Monday in school, he wrote his news. And I have to say, for a four-year-old, he's pretty good at the old English, but this is apparently what he wrote.

At the weekend, I went to the abattoir and I watched the pigs being killed. Well, at pick-up time, I had to be called into the school to discuss with the teacher the inappropriate content of my son's weekly news I should say he's now 22 he still eats meat and we actually have a laugh about this life experience it didn't change how he felt about eating meat and but he did have a much more detailed understanding of where his food came from um four does seem quite young I don't know I always think primary schools asking children for their news it's very on the one hand it's dangerous on the other it's very clever it's both of those things yeah it might be a way of finding out if there is anything to be concerned about well yes it's often that isn't it and actually taking the teddy home and then bringing teddy back and

asking them to write about what teddy got up to at the weekend was absolutely a method used by teachers to better understand what home life was like for kids. Because it's often much easier to tell a story in the third person, isn't it? This happened to Teddy, not this happened to me. Oh, I didn't know. I hadn't thought about that. Gosh, that's actually quite depressing in a way as well, isn't it? Yeah, but thoughtful. By the way, can I just say, Nicky and Gloucestershire, I'm absolutely not condemning

the fact that you're telling your kids all about animals and that you're actually living and breathing it. You know, you've got the animals in your kitchen and you're looking after them. I think I've just done something

that isn't as brave in allowing the kids to absolutely fall in love with pets, but not introduce them to the real notions of, you know, what's happening to other creatures who don't fit into the dog, cat, gecko, leopard, gecko, guinea pig, whatever. The kids did once add up that they'd had 59 pets. You're like flaming Durrells.

Isn't that just bonkers? Look out for their memoirs, by the way. They'll be being published in about 40 years' time. We had that terrible year of the Randy guinea pigs where we were just basically running a guinea pig fight. I just didn't realise that the children would mate with their parents. I didn't. Oh, now you've gone too far.

Let's move on to the... I want another abattoir story. Oh, OK. Can I do this one from Jackie in West London? Yes, go on. My younger brother was taken to an abattoir on a school trip in Scotland in the 1970s. He was promptly sick and sent to sit on the coach by himself.

No sympathy from the teachers in those days. It didn't deter him from being a meat-eater, though. I think it's good for us to learn where our food comes from and how it's produced. And on a different subject, I still have my protractor from school. It serves very nicely as a moon-shaped cut round when rolling pastry for empanadas.

Oh, my goodness. Isn't that brilliant? What a classy listener. Yeah, we'll take more suggestions of recycling things that the kids no longer use. That would be good. I thought I'd write in with my abattoir story, says Michelle. I'm Irish and our good friends had a farm and an abattoir.

I remember playing tag between the hanging carcasses. It was odd and I do remember the smell distinctly. Oh yeah, I bet you do. I went on to become a vegetarian and then a vegan until my first night living in London where I met some South Africans and was found by my friend gnawing on a chicken leg in their kitchen at 3am. I never looked back, boasts Michelle. I don't know quite why it was South Africans that had that impact on Michelle. But anyway, I do eat more consciously and I care about where my meat comes from. But I

was just a rubbish veggie. I looked awful and I was anemic. It was actually difficult in Ireland and the mammy never got it. Dousing my veggies in gravy made from meat juices. Michelle is now in Bristol. Gosh, that's a vegan and vegetarian paradise, Bristol. So, yeah, I mean, I was a vegetarian for seven years and actually I was a hopeless vegetarian. I also was quite anemic and looked very pale and pasty. But I would always have a roast with the gravy,

just the meat I didn't eat. So I wasn't really much of one, to honest but I gave it I gave it a whirl our guest on the podcast today is going to be a much venerated broadcaster and writer and one-time campaigner it is Sir Trevor Phillips so we'll hear from him in a couple of moments' time. A massive fan joins us from the Netherlands. This is Kate, who says that the Netherlands have recently had elections too and the coalition cabinet was finally formed and presented last week. It's all been extremely weird and worrying. Would you like to hear more?

Of course we would, Kate. You can become our Netherlands correspondent. Take it easy on us because obviously the Netherlands and England have a connection at the moment, don't they? Well, they do. I mean, whether the Dutch will be speaking to us this time tomorrow, I wouldn't care to bet. Or us to them.

Yeah, OK. How will you be watching tonight's game? Do you want to illuminate the listeners who might not be fully across our Euros championship? Yes, men's Euros. Men's Euros, yes, absolutely. England are playing the Netherlands. Who was it we had on?

Was it yesterday? Jim Proudfoot, who said it's been ages since England beat a team. England men. Beat a team higher ranked than them in the world. Well, the Dutch are higher ranked than England. So if England do win tonight, it will be a proper achievement. And do you want to see it go to penalties? Because now we absolutely ace penalties. We're terrific at penalties. Nothing could possibly go wrong with penalties.

Well, actually, the Dutch are hopeless at penalties. So it wouldn't be a bad thing at all. The Dutch men. If we went to penalties, England men. But it's just a long night, isn't it? And to be honest, I've got some people coming around. I want them gone by about 10 o'clock, realistically. Are they men? England women. They're English women. I'm whirring up that absolutely delicious Tom Kerridge asparagus pasta, which I now make up to three times a week.

Tom was a guest a couple of weeks ago. We've got copies of his book. And the recipe that is an absolute winner is his chili and asparagus tip chili flake and asparagus tips and lemon with pasta it's really as simple as that it's lovely well i tell you what jane nothing says football's coming home quite like tom kerridge's asparagus pasta do you know what you've come a long way love do you think i live in west lond? I think you might. OK. Why are votes counted overnight? Lizzie has the answer.

We were wondering why. You can't just lock up the votes, go home for a kip and start the counting the next day. Well, you can't. In response to your question about why votes are not counted during the day, there is a specific legislative... It's so hard, that word. ..a specific legislative provision for parliamentary elections that returning

officers must take reasonable steps to begin the counting of votes within four hours of the close of poll at 2200 hours. For other types of elections, the count must take place as soon as practicable, which does give a bit more flexibility i think they just need to change that i can't see the logic now in times of really easy to install security presumably that was put in place you know before we did have cctv or you know uh locks when was the lock invented but it just that just seems to be from a kind of a slight highwayman era

I agree with you it does seem odd but perhaps we're just speaking from the perspective of people whose eyelids were glued together at about 20 to 3 in the morning and just wanted to go home I'm still seething about our correspondent who didn't hear a word either of us said on the big night. I know.

I mean, honestly. So when was your absolute low point overnight? I had a real wobble at about 10 past 3, where I just had to go and sit down quietly with my eyelids down for five minutes. Was that when you had rumours of a recount? Yeah. There were so many much, much older people quietly with my eyelids down for five minutes. Was that when you had rumours of a recount? Yeah.

There were so many much, much older people who were there to support, particularly the Liberal Democrats. What are you saying about the Liberal Democrats? Well, it was just very telling, Jane. I mean, Reform were there in force in Godalming and they were besuited, energetic, you know, quite fit-looking men, all bouncing around, looking like they were going to a Mumford & Sons gig.

They were absolutely fine. The Conservatives had some very young people helping out their team. We were told off by somebody who was, I think, 14. Told off very well, actually. You have a future in politics. What did he actually say to you? I'm not going to repeat it. Young Shaver had the temerity to tell you off.

I'm not going to repeat it. It was quite funny, though. I can take it all in my stride. Sonny Jim. But there were a lot of people supporting the Lib Dem candidate and they were, Jane, they were in their, you know, late 60s, 70s and 80s and you did think, oh my word, if I'm feeling tired, it just seemed just bizarre.

And then, of course, you have to be super bouncy at four o'clock because that's when the action of democracy really goes up a notch. Yeah. It all seems already such a long time ago. Britain's moved on, everybody. It has. Now, before we get on to Trevor Phillips, I just wanted to read this from Edward. Now, are you sure?

Well, I know I'm going to read them both. OK. Because I like him. He makes me laugh. I remember being... Edward, I'm so sorry, because she's not going to do what you're telling her to do in the second email, but we're going to hear your first one.

She's very disobedient. I remember being faintly appalled that my ex-wife considered it perfectly normal to spend at least three hours cleaning our house before the actual cleaner arrived. My mother, now 96 and very frail, beeswax polishes a number of pieces of furniture before her cleaner arrives. I mean, that's old school, isn't it? And I don't think she's alone there. But then I love the fact that Edward's next email, sent about two minutes later, says, I've just re-read my email to you. I just

sound incredibly stuffy, male and pompous. Edward, I know you say please ignore, but actually I love a man with self-knowledge. Yeah. And also, we've all, God, we've all done that. Yeah, I'm quite stuffy. We've sent the email and we haven't bothered

to then send the second email going, I'm really sorry, I just shouldn't have put that down. Um, you're not that. You're not that stuffy and you're not that pompous because, um,

you've got that lovely self-awareness, Edward. Whether your ex-wife would agree, we don't know. Uh, but we like the sound of you. Yeah. So, thank you. So, keep them all coming. But we like the sound of you. Yeah. So thank you. So keep them all coming.

It's janeandfee at times.radio. Trevor Phillips is a writer, broadcaster, former politician. His career spans five decades. He's now 70, shows no sign of slowing down. So who better to talk us through the massive changing tectonic plates of this country after what could be an era-defining election. He's been chair of the London Assembly, was appointed head of the Commission for Racial Equality by Tony Blair, was then the chairman of the Equality and Human Rights Commission until 2012. So many other posts held as well and you can now find him sitting in the

hot seat over at Sky presenting his eponymous show on a Sunday. Sir Trevor, a very good afternoon. How are you? Good afternoon. I'm a little worried there. That sounded like an obituary. Well, I'm sorry. I'm glad you said there's no, I'm not slowing down yet. I'm sorry. I need to work harder at that one. But you're hailing Marty today. I appreciate it. I appreciate it. OK, let's talk about election night. Where were you? I had the probably the best lock in ever. 10 hours, in fact, 11 hours, if you count the prep with Kay Burley and Beth

Rigby talking politics. And, you know, people like us who are politics nerds, we're the kind of people that everybody runs away from at parties. But on this night, nobody could run away from us. So me, Kay, Beth, Andy Burnham and Ruth Davidson, 10 hours with talking politics, results, a bit of drama and a lot of Mtesers i mean what else could you ask for well i was going to ask you what your little sugary snack of choice was there were so many haribos bought weren't there by journalists uh on i think the day's second third

and fourth of july yeah the other guys went in for for harib. I'm kind of a Malteser man myself. And we all did bananas. OK, even Jane Garvey had a banana. She hates bananas. At 20 to 3 in the morning. Anyway, carry on. Right, let's talk about the very serious implications of this election.

So let's look through the long view. I won't keep mentioning your age, Trevor, but let's tap into your experience. Please do. I've always longed to have gravitas. I know what gravitas means. Right. So having witnessed more changes in government than, you know, people our age would have done, what do you think this election actually means? I think it's very, very important. And not particularly because of the

size of the majority, but partly because of its shape. The important thing, I think, that came through was, first of all, Labour did a fantastic job and their campaign boss, Pat McFadden, who is an old Blairite hand, really strategically did a brilliant thing. Labour's used to stacking up huge majorities in constituencies where everybody knows it's going to win anyway. What McFadden did was construct a campaign, which meant that Labour had a lower average majority across all the seats it's won, but it won many, many more seats. Now, that works both ways. First of all, it gives Keir Starmer complete authority. I mean, he can have rebellions and all the rest of it, but he will still win votes in the House of Commons. What McFadden, of course, will also be conscious

of, because he's a very careful, very thoughtful guy, is that those thin margins could be swept away. It's what James Canagosurium, the guy who invented the phrase red wall, calls the sand castle. You could build it high, but it will go away very quickly. The other big feature of the night, I think, which in a way, I'm kind of surprised people are not talking about more, is to be honest, the big winners were reform. I mean, this is a party which in reality only came into the contest six weeks ago. They came away with five members of parliament. They came away with a bigger share, 14.3%, I think, than the Liberal Democrats. And most crucially, because Nigel Farage has been pretty plain

about what he's got in mind. They've got a platform from which to build towards 2029. And they will keep the Tories, keep the right of centre divided because that's what his aim is. I'm interested in how the media cover reform because quite a few people, certainly everybody in the Liberal Democrat camp, sees the notion that a huge thing happened for the Liberal Democrats in this election.

Many, many more MPs returned to Parliament than Reform, but a news bulletin will probably start with something that happens at Reform ahead of the Lib Dems. Would you agree with that? And what does that say about the way that we cover politics in this country? Do you mean, do I think the Liberal Democrats are right to be grumpy about that? Yes. I think the Liberal Democrats are right to be grumpy about that. Yes. No. They got 12.5% of the votes.

They got 12.5% of the seats. Reform came from nowhere, walked straight past them, and frankly were more important in giving Keir Starmer both the election full stop and secondly the size of his majority. election full stop and secondly the size of his majority uh this is not to downplay the size the scale of ed davies achievement largest number of lib dem um lib dem uh seats uh i think ever but the truth of the matter is this was won by the fact that niger faraj entered the contest he divided the conservative votes uh in a way that meant that uh labor did which did not by the way increase its overall share of the votes particularly uh over in the long run that Labour was able to take this enormous majority. In fact, Keir Starmer has won with more seats than anybody since Blair, I think,

but with a lower share of the vote than Jeremy Corbyn got in 2017. We've got so many questions that we have for you, Trevor, and so little time. So here we go. This is the most diverse parliament ever in this country, 90 minority ethnic MPs, but large communities have zoned out of the main parties as well. And Labour lost five seats in places with large Muslim populations. So I wonder what your concerns are about that, and what you think needs to be done or whether we just accept that the major political parties just might never be able to represent everybody who lives in this

country? I don't think it's a thing that one should have concern about. It's a fact. The truth of the matter is that the proportion of votes won by the Labour and Conservative parties together has been declining some time. Every now and again, there's a big bump. But I think this time it is down to just about 60 percent. Back in the 60s, 1960s and 1970s, it would regularly be around 80 percent. And the reason is that the truth is that both of those parties were built on a particular sort of social basis. So Labour on big trade unions, on working class communities and mining towns and industrial towns and so on. Of course, all those the miners have gone, the manufacturing industry, big steel towns and so on. That's all gone. so the social base on which labor has been built has

gone and the labor's basic social pillars are clever people in university towns and pakistani and bangladeshi muslims now the problem that uh labor of course has and i think you're right to pick up on it is that um a group of the latter the Muslim voters, were really discontented with the way Keir Starmer dealt with the Gaza issue. But not specifically about Gaza, but just the feeling that they are being ignored by the party they regard as the one that represents them. Now, I think this is a factor of politics in transition. We are a country that is changing quite dramatically

and that our that is changing quite dramatically, and that our politics is changing, but the big parties have not yet caught up with that change. One of the things I think we're going to see is that the coalitions that made up Labour and Conservative over the next five to 10 years are going to look very different. Right. Who or what can make the Conservatives whole again? Well, you know, when I grew up, my mother would say, well, that's a job for the Lord Almighty. I think that it is. Well, look, let's face the reality. The Conservatives are not going to be back in government.

They're not going to compete unless and until they find a way of dealing with Nigel Farage. Now, I know that it's the sort of mainstream orthodox thing to say all sorts of things about Farage and how terrible he is and this and that and the other, and that he has to be defeated. They won't. They will make an accommodation with him. they won't. They will make an accommodation with him. So I think that the person who will bring conservatives back to prominence or competitiveness, I beg your pardon, is the person who can find a way of absorbing the reform vote without alienating the traditional one nation conservative. Who is that at the moment? Could you put a face to that? No, I don't think that person is. I do not think that person actually is prominent in politics yet. If you I don't want to dodge your question because I'm used to being on the other side of

the microphone. I find it so irritating when people do dodge the question. If I were to answer the question today, I would say their best bet is probably going to be somebody like James Cleverley. Well, no, that's an answer. You've not dodged it at all, Travis. That's fantastic. Do you see Joe Biden in a different way because you are closer in age to him? This is your question about old men in powerful positions. Do I see him in a different way from who? From you? From my daughter?

Well, yeah, I mean, do you look at him and you think he's only, what, 11 years older than me? You know, give him a break. I don't, I mean, I honestly don't know. I'm not a 70-year-old man, Trevor, and I'm asking you to tell me what what your opinion might be whether it is different to mine well I I don't I don't like some of the sort of um slightly sneer the sneering at him actually I think that's improper I think it's cheap however

I do think that if you can't do a job don't tell people you can do it and don't pretend you can do it. Go and do something that you can do. And it is pretty clear that for most Americans, I mean, I don't know Joe Biden, I've never met him. But from what we can see, this is not a job that he really should be doing or that he needs to do or that anybody needs him to do. If you are anti-Trump, you ought to be panicked right now. Yeah, I think you're absolutely right, actually, to say it's not a job that he needs to be doing. I mean, that's the truth of it, isn't it? There isn't only one man who can lead the Democrat Party at the moment. That just must be wrong. I mean, it's such a big country. It's such an effective party.

It just can't be only him. It is a preposterous piece of hubris and egotism to say, I am the only person who can do this job and it needs me. And we've seen the results of that actually in the United States when the former Supreme, late Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg convinced Democrat the darling of the left refused to stand down and then died when Trump was in office. So she was replaced by a Trump nominee when had she stood down, there would have been a Democratic, an Obama nominee. But make sure that the cause that you represent is actually furthered rather than thinking that you are the only person in the world that can further this cause. I mean, this is a problem about old men, right? This is an absolute problem about old men. We get into a stage where we think actually we're the only people who can do the thing that we can do.

And that's when you get into the place of being a complete idiot. thing that we can do. And that's when you get into the place of being a complete idiot. Well, both Jane and I are smiling at the veracity of your last comment, Trevor. Final question. Tom Bradby said that he was one of the few white male anchors left in an interview that he did with the Radio Times. And it really angered and offended some of his colleagues and others really defended him. I wonder whether you had thoughts about it or took action about it, actually. Oh, I don't think it's for anybody to take action. I've got to confess, I was sort of puzzled by it. I didn't really understand why Tom felt he had to say that, number one.

Number two, I don't think it's probably actually true. I'm not sure it is true. And I don't think that you, in this particular case, in our particular sort is extraordinary. And I think sort of trying to make it representative in that way is just weird, really. And Tom, who is, I think, a terrific anchor, great writer for television and so on, I was just puzzled that he decided to remark on this particular point. We are not in any way a representative craft or trade. And I think trying to sort of talk about it as though television anchors ought to be representative proportionately

of the population is silly. And what it does do, by by the way is it trivializes a much bigger issue about representation representation in uh let's say middle management uh across most industries which is a bigger issue don't pick on a really peculiar small sample to make the case for or against diversity, because we're just weirdos. We should be talking about the wider population, the wider workplace, rather than this particular select group. Right. Well, there's the title for our podcast this evening,

into which this interview will go. We are the weirdos. So, Trevor Phillips, it's been lovely talking to you. Thank you very much indeed for your time this afternoon. Pleasure to talk to you, Steve. Thank you so much. I think I'm just so glad he said it. He's right.

It is the one thing that unites all broadcasters, whether they're good, bad or indifferent. It's certainly odd. I thought actually he said a lot of truth there, particularly the insight into the stubbornness of older, powerful men. You've got that. He did mention Ruth.

And women as well. And she's a woman. You're absolutely right. And we're quite stubborn ourselves. A bit of it. There's an atrophy that sets in, isn't there? No, there definitely is. Right.

Thank you. Thank you, Sir Trevor. And thank you for listening. I'm sorry, Eve. You won't be here tomorrow. I'm not here tomorrow, Eve's reminded me. I don't know where I am now, never mind where I'm going to be tomorrow.

So are we playing Lucky Dip? Just basically, we don't really know what's going to happen tomorrow, but it'll either be me reading emails very slowly on my own or we will lasso somebody in from the times radio team and we'll see what happens it was going to be uh second in command jane but she is she's been sent on assignment to a very difficult place so she's currently on a hostile environment course oh so it can't be jay more karens so we'll find somebody else or it'll just be me. If you'd like to volunteer, feel free.

Yeah, I've never done that course. Have you? Yes. And? I didn't enjoy it. And so there's a lot of stuff that happens on a hostile environment course. I mean, at one point you are basically kind of kidnapped without warning and, you know, bags put over your head and all that kind of stuff. And it did make me realise that that wasn't the kind of journalism that I was capable of doing really uh so I have never actually been sent to a place where I've had to say yes I've done the hostile environment course

well um hats off to those people who are prepared to do it yeah no definitely definitely and and if you are you know if you're brave enough to put yourself in those kind of situations we're all better for it aren't we because that's how we learn about the world. Yeah. Well, I hope it's all right, Jane. Thank you very much. It is, as you know, I'm almost certain, janeandfeeattimes.radio. Well done.

Congratulations. You've staggered somehow to the end of another Off Air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do do it live every day, Monday to Thursday, 2 till 4 on Times Radio. The jeopardy is off the scale. And if you listen to this, you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online on DAB or on the free Times Radio app. Off Air is produced by Eve Salisbury and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler. Thank you.