Off Air... with Jane and Fi - We do find ourselves in awkward positions... (with Marian Keyes)

Episode Date: April 18, 2024

Are you keen on democracy? Do you often wonder which friend you'd call in a hostage situation? Do you sometimes just think men are a bit silly? Then today's episode is for you!Jane and Fi are joined by author Marian Keyes, to talk about her new book 'My Favourite Mistake'.You can book your tickets to see Jane and Fi live at the new Crossed Wires festival here: https://www.sheffieldtheatres.co.uk/book/instance/663601Our next book club pick has been announced - A Dutiful Boy by Mohsin Zaidi.If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiAssistant Producer: Kate LeeTimes Radio Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Well, I've got something for stains. Yes. And something to clean the loo. Oh, and something for stainless steel hobs as well. Lovely. Did I say that erotically enough? I think you did. I think, yeah, people might want to pause and rewind.

Have some special time. I've got something to make the drum of my washing machine smell better. Okay. Enjoy the weekend. We've both got to get rid of our claggy nut mouths. Claggy nut mouths. The name of a punk band who are underrated. I think they struggled with their first album and then their second.

So, are we up and running, Kate? The big question of today, Jane, obviously, and you would have thought of this already, if you found yourself being held hostage in a flat overnight by bad people? Bad people. Would you call me? First of all, would good people ever hold anybody hostage overnight?

No, it's a good point. They wouldn't, would they? No. Well, I'd need to call someone. Who would you call? I would call you on the basis that I suspect that, like me, you're probably a bit of a light sleeper and ever alert. Yeah, and also I've got the cash.

And also you've got money. And you would surely be willing to cough up a couple of grand to get me out of an awkward spot. Because we do find ourselves in these awkward spots, don't we, every now and again? Actually, for people listening outside the UK, this is about, I mean, Sometimes you wonder, what next? And in the last 24 hours, we've been told that a Conservative MP,

no longer a Conservative MP, was in a spot of bother. Yeah. He found himself in a spot of bother. Well, by the sounds of it, he had an evening that led him into a spot of bother. Well, by the sounds of it, he had an evening that led him into a spot of bother that was entirely of his own volition at the beginning of the evening. So, Mr Menzies, yeah, he found himself in a flat with some men who asked him for an awful lot of money because he had become intoxicated and had been sick everywhere and so he phoned his the head of his constituency fundraiser

party thing what's the proper term for that um local association thank you local association Thank you. Local Association boss, an elderly woman, and asked her if she had access to some funds, which she would have done because those would have been local Conservative Party funds, that he could use to get him out of his spot of bother. He's denied all allegations. so use the word sprinkle allegedly uh throughout that when you think about it um well i hope he's all right because it's probably a pretty awful day for him but but honestly how much longer can this go on for we are we are having an election towards the end of the year we're told this is in the uk there are elections all over the world, aren't there, this year, which is why Times Radio has become... The election station. Yeah. So if you're keen on democracy, or indeed other forms of government, you'll want to make sure you keep listening.

Yeah. We do it all here. So I sat next to somebody who had been a very important part of a previous Conservative government. He was a minister, and this was at a university dinner ages ago. It was just after Keith Vaz had had some inopportune moments, and he had had to... It's a good bit of balance, because that's a Labour politician.

Yeah, he had had to stand back from his position of authority. And this guy and I were chatting about what you... I asked him how people then treat somebody within the House of Commons when all of that scandal is swirling around them. And he was just very interesting, Jane, because he just said, we don't treat people any differently. It's just a kind of assumed position that whatever it is that is going on in your personal life even if it does then enter the public domain and of course there's a link you know these are public figures you don't treat them any different that's just the kind of code of honour within parliament and I was just very struck by that because I'm not sure I I don't know. Does every profession have that kind of code?

I think they probably do. Do you? Up to a point. I mean, let's face it, journalism and broadcasting, it's not exactly short of personal scandal, is it? Not at all. Linked to certain members of our trade. And I think on the whole, the tendency would be just to just say good morning good

morning in that very well do you think you'd just leave off did you have a nice weekend if you knew that they'd been on the front page of a newspaper over the course of that weekend yeah can i get you something from the canteen well you could later actually thank you very much um no there's a lovely meal i've already been through the canteen to check what's on offer. Well, there's a special Eid meal today, and it looked very nice, spicy chicken with flatbread. Yeah, so I'm going for that. Now, what has dawned on me is that to think they used to deny women the vote on the basis that women were a bit silly and a bit hysterical and just a bit giddy,

as, by the way, we both often are um but women were just fundamentally unsuited to politics but honestly the evidence before our eyes is that overwhelmingly it's men who are not suited to this they are incredibly silly and their ability to find themselves in these nocturnal spots of bother. It's just remarkable how often it happens. So do you think that's just the male libido, being given permission in a different way to ours? Possibly. And possibly it is that aphrodisiac power thing.

But let's be honest, it's often the male politicians who are not household names for their for the positions they've achieved but they become household names because of their spots of bother so i can't just be that i don't know does it release a new a desire to really live an equal life and uh to maybe this weekend have some hookups find yourself in a inappropriate position flaunt yourself flirt with some danger come in on monday and see whether or not i treat you any differently i put it to you james i'm gonna be absolutely honest my my only social engagement this weekend is my daughter's 21st i don't think she's gonna cock that up i don't think she's going to want me to make it all about me.

Oh, my God. Anyway, you're a good human being to say that there is another human being at the heart of this story today. And of course, you know, he has, well, he wouldn't have gone to sleep last night because actually the story was in The Times by about 8pm last night. And, you know, everybody kind of knows something about him that he wouldn't really want people to know today. So you're absolutely right about that. But I am genuinely interested whether that kind of code of honour exists in every place

of work. And whether it should, I genuinely don't know. Obviously, if you pose a danger to other people, then everybody has the right to treat you in a particular way. Yeah, if you're spending money that's not yours. Yeah, and that. But if you've just strayed from the path of righteousness, sounding really pompous, in a way that we all could at our most vulnerable, then a little bit of, you know,

you never know what you're capable of, do you? Well, I've got a fair idea. Everybody going to that 21st is going to be thinking, oh my God, what's she going to do? I'll tell you what, listeners, I couldn't work out whether that was a threat or a promise. A little bit of both. Now, we ended yesterday's podcast.

Let's do something about cloths. I love my job. Because we have been doing, I think you billed it yesterday, it was what was it? Managing your spills. Brilliant, managing your spills. And amazingly, people have a view on this.

I could not be more delighted. And the world appears to divide into groups who have kitchen towels and groups who like the old ways, like Fee's mum. Oh, yes. Well, I was very heartened because I thought when I said that yesterday

that people would just kind of slightly laugh at me. But lots of people do a similar thing. This one comes from Jill, who says, there I was listening to your good selves as I resisted getting out of bed when wham, I was transported back 60 plus years to the cloths boiling on the gas stove in a particular pan with a lid which I think had a slit in the side for the wooden tongues to sit in clever pan my mum was there in her two-tone blue nylon cover

all pounding the cloths down and the smell I did indeed attempt this in my own household but living at that time in a flat with no direct access to outside, I did find the stench overwhelming. And it is a very odd smell of boiling dishcloths. My adult offspring... Would you like to just describe it? Well, it's a bit salty and it's a bit foggy and it doesn't really matter

because you would have thought it would smell of the washing powder, which is always a lovely smell, but it doesn't. it makes the kitchen smell a bit off it's weird my adult offspring don't really know what i saved them from but on visiting my daughter last week i discovered under her sink vinegar soda crystals and lemon instead of a spray bottle of something so maybe genes do get passed on this was written from my bed with a coffee, not on a bus with cocktails. Been with you since the start. I'm contemplating Sheffield. Saw you in Edinburgh.

Well, I hope that you're not only contemplating Sheffield because you saw us in Edinburgh and therefore you haven't automatically booked Sheffield. I'm not sure it's worth it. If you can get to Sheffield, it'd be lovely to see you there. It would be. And actually, this is a link. I'm glad you mentioned Sheffield

because we're appearing at the podcast festival Crossed Wires on May the 31st. It's a Friday night, so it wouldn't be a bad way to get the weekend going. Get us out of your system. Come and see us. It's 7.15, isn't it, on the Friday night? It is, live from the Crucible.

Yeah, we never thought we'd get the chance to say that. And actually, I'm delighted. And the reason I harp on about this particular point is that I did go to the theatre last night to see the brilliant musical Standing at the Sky's Edge set in Sheffield, and it started at the Crucible. And it's been to the National Theatre, and now it's at the Gillian Lynn.

And did you find yourself singing the songs on the way home? Well, I've got the soundtrack now. Have you? Yeah, I have, and I do love a musical. And I would say Hand on Heart is the best musical I've seen since Blood Brothers back in the day in Liverpool. And I really recommend it. So I know the other day we were talking to Dominic Maxwell,

the Times theatre critic, about the show To Go and See if you've got the chance to come to London. He recommended The Stranger Things. He did, yeah. And I would like to see that, but I honestly would make the case for this as well. Standing at the Sky's Edge, it's contemporary, it's got a diverse cast, it's just brilliant.

I love the songs, I thought the acting was brilliant, the choreography is superb. If I was going to be critical, I'd say maybe it's a little bit long, but go to a matinee. I know, but to be honest, darling, you find everything a little bit long. Just absolutely soak it up. And the music's by Richard Hawley of The Verve, so some really good tunes and great hooks there. And I think people will love it. OK, good recommendation.

I also think that Stranger Things... I know that Dominic said you didn't have to have seen Stranger Things in order to really enjoy the show. You know, I've not seen the show, so I don't want to decry his opinion, but I would imagine that quite a lot of people are put off simply by that. If you weren't a Stranger Things fan, I think you'd automatically go, you know, that's a show for people who love the series. I think they might.

I don't want to sound parochial, but it's really good to make the case for proper, original British content, which is what Standing at the Sky's Edge is. And it's about a housing estate in Sheffield and three separate groups of people who occupied this flat. And it's just so well done. So do seek it out if you can. So thank you to everybody else

who was very supportive of washing your dishcloths and actually our conversation just get back to the get back to the topic um our conversation led to an incredibly generous cadeau uh being delivered to the office and i'm saying it like that because that's what it was billed as and pretty cadeau but it was a whole box of really amazing products that we all descended upon we fell upon it you've gone you're going to go home with well i've got something for stains yes and something to clean the loo oh and something for stainless steel hobs as well lovely did i say that erotically enough i think you did i think yeah People might want to pause and rewind. Have some special time.

I've got something to make the drum of my washing machine smell better. Enjoy the weekend. Have you seen Marie's email? Alan Bennett talks cloth hygiene. Can I just say, the lovely person who sent us all the dr beckman stuff you haven't told us your name so we can't say thank you in person but honestly it just it completely and utterly has made our week and all of the young ones on the team as well uh we thought they wouldn't be interested but they dived in well they did i think they were quite embarrassed by our

show of enthusiasm to be honest but yeah they did all take something we're not so mean as just to divide it between the two of us but let me tell you we both know people who would have done exactly that uh marie says uh listening to fee's cloth boiling regime reminded me of the most glorious description by alan bennett of his mum's obsession with cloth and mop hygiene this was very much pre-kitchen towel era. Apparently, he said, my mother maintained an intricate hierarchy of cloths, buckets and dusters to the Byzantine differentiation of which she alone was privy.

I wish I could do that sentence justice, but you need Alan Bennett to properly deliver it. But I do love that because that sounds like a very fond reminiscence of his mother's household regime. And it sounds like it was. I mean, I had a great aunt who I only ever saw dressed in a housecoat. And she had been widowed for quite some time.

And she had one son, my lovely cousin Peter. I hope he's listening, actually. He often does. And she kept that house. To say it was clean would be the understatement of the year. Her life's work was to maintain a properly clean, beautifully smelling, just smell the polish as soon as you walked in, establishment. Yeah, fabulous.

I yearn for that. Yes. Well, the way we're going, I'm sure we'll soon achieve it we'll both be sent home to maintain our services I think you can lull yourself into a false sense of security by blaming things

I've got kids or I've got pets or I work full time or whatever it is but sometimes I'll go round to friends houses who have all of that stuff going on in their lives and other caring demands on them as well and their houses are just better kept than mine jane they just are and i think it's just a you have a level don't you that you're happy with and yes i agree i think there is a degree of untidiness that i cannot tolerate but when i got in last night nobody had either loaded or unloaded the dishwasher.

There was a load of damp washing in the machine. You know, you just think, oh, for Pete's sake. Yeah. Why, oh, why, oh, why? Why, oh, why, oh, why? The dishwasher thing, I just don't... What is the point in putting something by the dishwasher? Well, I'm afraid the world divides

not just into those who prefer cloths over kitchen towel but to those who notice the full dishwasher and do something about it and those who just do a dump and run on the side it does drive me mad but i have been known sometimes when the dishwasher isn't completely and utterly full but it is clean if there's one load you know just from one meal to go in I don't bother emptying it I just put it round again add the last couple of plates yeah

there's something I feel better of having told the world that now actually this is like in many ways a confession it is isn't it

yeah Ruth we met at a mutual friends party and you sent us a lovely email your ongoing

Morris theme is really funny. Morris dancers give me the heebie-jeebies. I stay away from them whenever I see them, which isn't often in my part of West London, thank goodness. But interesting that you mentioned someone finding love in the Morris dancing scene. We have a mutual friend who's recently written about whether or not she'll date again. Do you think we should get her off to a Morris dancing convention? I can't think of anything worse. I'm sure she'd feel the same. Well, I would say just embrace every opportunity, actually.

We're talking about Asma Mir, and I think Asma and I should go to a Morris dancing convention together. I think you should. Yeah. Yep, I think that's brilliant. And see what rich pickings we can acquire. Yep. And you might find yourself converted.

It is possible, Fi. Liz says she's a representative of Golden Star Morris in Norwich. Honestly, when we started this, we had no idea. Liz says, Jane and Fi thought you might like to see the outcome of the Morris dancing census. Were you aware of this? In 2023, for the first time in history, and this is a proud moment, if we could afford a drum roll, we'd have one. Thank you. In 2023, for the first time in history, there were more women Morris dancers in the UK than men. That's remarkable. Just over half are women and a feeble 48.6 percent are men 40 percent

of morris morris ringsides are now mixed what what does that mean it seems that older generation sisters enjoy morris dancing and hopping um fondest wishes says lizzie lizzie thank you so much um okay so i'm sorry about this um how did they collect the data the morris census just went out to everybody i wasn't in that i think all around or just went out to people who are in boss morris or all the groups that we've and you have to to register to be a Morris dancer? It's like a notifiable disease. I can't. No, we are going to cause more offence now because there have been...

I don't think... Well, we'll have to see how serious some of the complaints about this get. Come on, Morris community. The women Morris dancers seem very, very good about accepting that there are many of us who are a little quizzical about their activities. Less so some of the male dancers, I have to say.

But Liz points out that May Day is indeed the most popular date for dancing and performing. 43% of sides regularly perform and a quarter of Morris dancing sides performed at events for the coronation last year, which is absolutely right, isn't it? Because that, of course, was in May. Yeah.

I do love a maypole. I think dancing around a maypole is just such a really amazing thing, isn't it? Because then you've got something by the end of it. I've had an email from someone who... Sorry, I've just dropped my headphones. It's not very professional. The opposite of slick.

Slack, in fact. We have had an email from somebody who had to teach maypole dancing. Yep, here it is. It's from Sasha, who is greeting us from a very sunny and hot Western Australia. The temperature is still in the 30s. Your chats about Morris dancers reminded me of back in the day when I used to teach at a school in Surrey,

and I was the newbie teacher tasked with the job of teaching maypole dancing to the kiddies to be showcased at the school fete. Truly think that should be top of anyone's CV. If you can do that, you can literally do anything. I bet you can. I still break out in a cold sweat thinking about it. It's because the two groups have to go in opposite directions, don't they, to weave the maypole? I would be such a wildly unsuccessful maypole dancer. Yeah. I think I'd be worse at that than I would be at Morris. You would ruin it. Just no sense of direction. Yeah. Can't remember anything. No, no. Okay. It would be calamitous. Well, look, that's one less thing to worry about in your life. You will never maypole dance. But Sasha wants to change the topic as well. On another note note I ran away from the UK in my 20s

when my lovely mum died and a relationship finished I went to teach in Singapore for a couple of years which somehow turned into 14 a few weeks after arriving I met an Australian in a bar we ended up getting married and having four kiddies

before leaving for Oz it's funny how life takes you don't believe for a second that things happen for a reason, but I do believe that when one door closes, another one opens. Very strange bringing up teenagers in a country where I don't have that experience. I could

wax lyrical about it. And then Sasha says, I wish I could see you in Sheffield. I'm still hoping that Jane can be drugged and shoved onto a plane to come here. You've got a lot of listeners this side of the world. Come on. Dawn French is here at the moment.

Is she? Performing her show. Yeah, saw it last week. It was a real piece of home. Made my heart smile. So, look, come on. Singapore's not as far. No, she's in...

No, no, sorry. She's now in Western Australia. Well, I think quite a few people quite like to be drugged and shoved on a plane. So, I wasn't intending to get on the plane with you. Exactly. It'd be a cruel trick. I'll just be in the dirt out there on my own.

See you in Perth. Well, you'd just drive back home. Okay. God, where was I going with that? No idea. I don't know. But you're genuinely, you're not warming to the idea

of a trip down under? It's not that I'm dead against it. Do you know what I think you should do? I'm just a bit against it. I think you and Asma should go to the Morris Dancing Convention first. And then on to Australia. Yep, and if you feel that you can conquer that, I think that you will

think you can conquer anything. Okay. Yep. And then we can consider coming to Australia. I doubt Asma's listening, but if she is, I hope that's planted a seed, Asma. Yeah, and she could come to Australia with us too because they'd love her book.

We're talking to her actually, aren't we, about her book? Well, we both loved her book. Yeah. So, yeah, that's next week. And we have got Marion Keys on the podcast today as well because she's written a great new book. All her books are great. This is a new one.

It's called My Favourite Mistake. Interview with Marion coming up in a moment. I should say that I was, before I went to the theatre last night, I went for a quick drink and it was one of those establishments where, I mean, you must probably understand what I mean, where they're a bit surprised they've got any customers.

You walk in, it's quite fashionable, I suppose you could, it's quite near the theatre and they just seem mesmerized by the fact that i wanted to sit down and have a drink and something to eat oh they were sort of fashionably non-plussed was it actually a bar yes it wasn't someone's house it wasn't an office it was a bar but i said um it's confusing these days sometimes i think maybe i'll just pop into Foxton's for a drink. I've got all those fridges. You're right.

Estate agents have got curiously, what is it about? They used to just have displays of properties that were for sale. But you're right, there's this weird display of just sometimes just screens and fridges. Yep. Well, it wasn't a Foxton's. It advertised itself as a bar. But one of those places that the last thing they expected was customers. And so I asked for something to drink and something to eat and they had no bread.

How can they not have bread? You know, it's just I don't get that. I'm sure there'll be people listening in the restaurant and bar trade who can tell me how a place that advertises itself as somewhere to go for a bit of food and a bit of drink, pre-theatre, because that's very close to any number of venues, can't have bread. I do think that's a bit weird. Well, especially as supermarkets operate on a 24-hour basis in central London. Just pop to the shop if you haven't got any bloody bread in the place, go and buy some. And then

charge me ten times what you paid for it to eat it on your premises. So what did you have? Crackers. But what I was going to say was, and we had a go at Morris Dancers this week, but in a celebratory way, previous topics have been masons. And this place last night was very close

to the masons' central headquarters in... The Big Lodge. The Big Lodge in Covent Garden. And they'd obviously had a meeting because loads of fellas came down the street in our direction wearing suits and the masonic tie and carrying and perhaps someone can explain this a variety of cases it's the brief cases yeah but different sizes one chap big lumbering lad he was with an absolutely microscopic case what was in there so he's just got a small hammer there's some weird hammer thing going on isn't there it could have been he was carrying his

hammer yeah i i i don't know where i've dragged that detail okay no you might be right but somebody listening will know so please get us get us in on this okay it's in those tiny cases tiny cases some had average size cases some were a little bigger than normal and one was particularly tiny okay right i'll never forget you remember when we were doing the podcast back at the old place and we saw tony blackburn striding across the pizza and he had one of those very old-fashioned i'm catching the 845 from Godalming briefcases. They did. And you just never see anyone carrying a briefcase.

I mean, they're so unwieldy, aren't they? It does. I just thought, oh, Tony, bless you, and also, what's in there? That's my point. What DJ banter bump was he carrying? Because there used to be a thing, didn't there, of the DJs would carry

their record boxes with a certain amount of swagger. And they'd always have lots of stickers from, you know, some incredible night at the 100 club all over their boxes. But you don't need that anymore because it's all just digital. But what's in Tony Blackburn's briefcase?

We will never know. I suspect we won't know. No. No. Right, Karen is with us on the speaks to. You're so right. The first time on a Teams call, someone asked me to speak to a slide. I was genuinely flummoxed. I gathered myself for a second before realising what was meant. It still takes all my self

control not to begin with good morning slide. However, a phrase I love, which i've picked up from my persuasive and non-combative daughter is is there a version of this where so discussing the plan for the week is there a version of this where i don't cook dinner every night or is there a version of this where we get to the train station more than a minute before the train leaves tongue firmly in cheek every time oh good it's. It's very good, Karen. Very good. That is very good. Maz is in Isleworth,

which is less exotic than Western Australia, but still, it's always good to hear from people everywhere. And that does include Isleworth. We don't want to distance ourselves from Isleworth, do we? No, well, our correspondent in Western Australia was finding it too hot.

Exactly. So Isleworth would be a blessing. I imagine it's a good 14 celsius in isleworth today and it's probably lovely because it's there's a hint of spring in the air in the uk at the moment it's only a hint um maz says i've just finished watching this town on iplayer now i think that's about birmingham i loved it so much she says the music the poetry the fashion the time the setting the jeopardy and the characters the three young young men are totally gorgeous, good people, full of flaws. The girls are strong and purposeful. You can't help but love them all. Okay, well, that's a strong recommend. My husband and I, oh no, my husband, I do apologise. My

husband can occasionally be found watching James Martin's cooking show on Saturday mornings. I laughed out loud at the email about him and Paul McKenna, LTD, living the dream. I played that section of the podcast to him and he swears now he'll never watch again. You've done good missionary work there, Maz. But good news for you and your husband, probably, you can play him another extract from the podcast, is that we've ordered James Martin's autobiography, Driven, that's the name, and we will be indulging our slightly obsessive interest in reading out extracts from male books, hopefully next week when it arrives.

I don't know how hard it was to get hold of that book. Surprised it's available at all. They'd all been sold and cherished. And you've still got to delight the audience with something from Beefy Botham's books. They've ordered the wrong copy of his... I've got his wrong the wrong book. Because we want the one where he promises loads of salacious stories that he can't tell his long-suffering missus. So we want Don't Tell Cat.

Yeah, well, that's the one we want. But we've got a more cricket-based book. And I have looked for extracts, but I don't think we need to know what half-funny thing went on at Slip. Mid-off. Mid-off. During the middle of some tedious test match in 19... I mean, who cares? Is it sunny mid-on? Or is that a way of doing an egg? Right, okay. Timing is everything. And our guest today is Marion Keyes. I would say she must be one of the most successful living Irish authors, one of the most successful living Irish authors,

one of the most successful authors around at the moment. She's written, I think, 16 books altogether. This is her 16th. It's called My Favourite Mistake. As many of you will know, Marion does return to characters in her novels, and she's very keen on the Walsh family. And this latest book, My Favourite Mistake, features Anna Walsh and somebody who slipped in and out of her life over the course of many years. Here's quite an attractive chap called Joey Armstrong. But will they ever get together? As this is Marion's 16th book, I asked her whether the whole business of writing was getting a bit easier. They don't get easier, no. I mean, I don't know if they get harder either, but each one feels like an entirely kind of like starting again from the beginning. I mean, I've learned an awful lot about the craft along the way, I hope, but there is always a feeling of, oh, you know, that failure is only two steps behind me.

that failure is only two steps behind me and this is the one where they're going to come for me um I mean I'm you know I'm partial to a bit of catastrophic thinking but yeah I mean there is a part of me also that thinks you know I try my best and that's all any of us can do with anything and you know I'm always going to disappoint some people who liked previous books. And I suppose that kind of acceptance has got easier. So do your fans sometimes contact you and say, I like this, Marion, but actually I preferred the other one, if I'm honest. They actually do say that. That's because they think of you as a friend, don't they? Yeah, but yeah. I mean, so much of it is not ill-intentioned, but it is kind of to gently guide me to the right path, back to the right path.

And I can't do that. I can only write what I'm interested in writing. But yeah, you know, people don't want to upset me, but yeah. And they're entitled. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Well, my opinion, for what it's worth worth is that I had a week off last week I still had some easter eggs to finish and I got a copy of your new book and I actually thought this for me that is a version of paradise it's like it's just like going home so we're back well I really mean it and we're back. Well, I really mean it. And we're back with a familiar cast in some ways.

The central the protagonist here is Anna Walsh. For people who don't know your books, just who is Anna Walsh and where do we find her in her life? OK, she's 48 and she has been working in New York for 20 years as a PR for a big beauty PR company. And she does a COVID pivot, really. She finds her job so horribly stressful. It comes to a head during lockdown. Plus, being isolated with her long-term partner, they realized that they, you know, that they couldn't, it wasn't going to go the distance.

And she's Irish and her family, her sisters and parents are 3000 miles away. And so she she gives it all up. She moves back to Ireland thinking that because she's had such a kind of a well-respected job in New York that she'll get a job in Ireland. But PR is all about personal contacts she only discovers when she's made all those um when she's burnt all those bridges so she ends up doing a job that she isn't really um trained for in that like some friends of her sisters are setting up um a high-end resort in connemara on the atlantic and there's opposition from the locals so she's brought in as because she's a very kind of um unassuming type she's brought in to pour oil and on troubled waters and so while she's there she is also brought into contact with a man that she's had a sort of a 20 year.

They've both been in love with each other at different times and it never worked out. They both married other people and now they're both single and they're in the same place and they have both hurt each other in the past. and they have both hurt each other in the past and so Anna is dealing with the shame or you know looking back at her life and the decisions she's made and the way she's hurt people you know she's made decisions that had real painful consequences for people you know including Joey the man and it's about how do we in middle age deal with those things? Because we did our best at the time, but you can't change the facts. So it's quite a soul searching time for her, as well as kind of realising what am I going to be doing for the rest of my life? Well, also, she's 48 and she's female.

So that means that she's also menopausal. And you reference in the book some things that I really, really could recognise, one of which was feeling such annoyance at the way groups of men own pavements. Just take me through that. Okay, well, I mean, this is something that is very dear to my heart as well. Yeah. Anna's walking home from work one day and she's walking along the pavement and there's a group of about five or six, so maybe late teens, young men, just like larking about on the path. And she's coming towards them and they aren't making any effort to step aside or to create space for her to pass through.

And she is so angry that instead of doing that thing of like going out onto the road and risking life and limb or like, you know, sliding in against the wall to try and get past them that way. She just she just plows through them. And, you know, she's short, but her rage, you know, gives her impetus. Like she just marches through them with her elbows and her shoulders. And they're just, they're so shocked because she's invisible pretty much to them. And she just keeps on going and they're yelling,

like, you can't do that. And she thinks, oh, but I can. I very much can. Honestly, when I read that book, I shrieked with recognition when I read that part of the book. Because I just thought, yes, I have been there. In fact, I have done that. You also talk about men who grunt. Oh, young men in the gym.

I mean, not all young men and all that. Oh, yeah, of course not. I go to a gym when I'm here in London and I swear to God how I have not been arrested for like, for a public affray. You know, I'm there. I go on the run on the treadmill. It makes me calm.

But then there's all these young men like grunting, like they're at themselves and groaning and making these disgusting noises and then so they've they've obviously lifted something very heavy and then they let it go and they groan like they've just i don't know if i can say this like they've just come all over the place well you've just said it marion yeah okay yes and um and then they drop the weights with this unmerciful clatter and it feels like there's an earthquake in the place and I have literally yelled oh for f's sake at them can you keep it down or I have sometimes yelled enjoyed that did you because it's so rude

they're so loud and they yell their conversations at each other the length of the gym, you know, as if I'm interested. And sometimes I yell, thanks for sharing that, guys. Well, good for you for doing it, but it does illustrate the difference. And you're right, of course, it's not all men, but a surprising number of men. They don't have, they feel like they're so entitled to the space they're occupying. And the rest of us, I don't think many women do feel ever as entitled, wherever they go,

whatever they do. Yeah, definitely. Like if I was there with somebody else, our conversations would be low, because it's a space for everyone. And I think, I I mean I go to the gym to kind of feel calm and listening to every other people yelling and stuff is the opposite of calm yeah I am aware of other people in my space and I don't want to do anything that impacts on their I mean can we call it enjoyment in the gym yeah but whatever it is I don't want to make, I don't want it to be unpleasant for people. Can we talk about small town Ireland? I've been to Ireland a fair few times and Anna Walsh, as you've already explained,

is catapulted into this tiny, quite claustrophobic community. And within minutes, not only does everybody know who she is and where she's come from and what she's doing, they know what she's doing next, even if she doesn't. Is it really like that? I mean, it kind of is. I mean, OK, I mean, I do think a small town is a microcosm of the entire world. And, you know, you get every kind of person within a small community.

within a small community but I do think that Irish people are and I mean this very very lovingly are really quite nosy we're very curious like I'm like that like Irish people talk a lot they ask questions and Irish people are very keen to establish the link between you and them um where would they have met you before oh you're from that place okay well would you know so and so and like it really is one or two degrees of separation usually um yeah and there is i think in any kind of small town there's great excitement when um a new person arrives um and especially because when an arrives, it is to do with this particular project that is problematic. But yes, yes, like, you know, I joke about it, but like, you can sort of do nothing without getting caught. You know, people have gone to very, very remote B&Bs and they have found two of their colleagues

who are not meant to be there together, there together. You know, these things do happen. And it was one of the reasons I left Ireland in the first place. And it's kind of one of the things I like most about it now. Does Ireland ever take objection to the way you portray it? Do you get stick at home? and, you know, when I mocked the establishment, but definitely the way I portray Irish people. I would never do anything to hurt us.

I mean, I love Ireland so much and I love Irish people. You know, anything I write is written from enormous affection and respect. And I think that's fairly obvious. from enormous affection and respect. And I think that's fairly obvious. Take me back to your childhood and the way that Ireland has changed in our lifetimes. Quite extraordinary. I mean, the grip that the Catholic Church used to have on the place.

I mean, just for people outside the country, tell us about that. Yeah, I mean, you're right. It has changed enormously. But the church, when I about that. Yeah, I mean, you're right. It has changed enormously. But the church, when I was born in 1963, so it was a long time ago, and the church ran everything. Like it controlled the media. You know, I mean, so much stuff was censored. So many books weren't published. published you know we were very tightly controlled on what we could consume and every kind of social thing seemed to be about you know kind of religious

uh how would you call them ceremonies and there was so much judgment on. There were so many jobs you couldn't get if you if you were living, quote, in sin. I mean, it was just a dreadful, dreadful time. You know, no contraception, no sex outside marriage in theory. in theory um I just I mean I remember just the kind of the constant fear of stepping out of line getting into trouble and you know back then like the church ran all the schools and the thing is the thing that kills me is that they still run most of the schools um they ran all the hospitals um you know so it meant that like many medical procedures didn't happen if they were regarded as um you know in any way contrary like it was it was a theocracy in everything but name is it now i know it's a big question and perhaps you can't answer it. Is it a happier place now? Oh my God, it's much happier. I mean, the fear was real. And it was also so boring.

You know, like everything was so limited. You know, we were so limited in the entertainment we could consume. And I mean, people didn't know how bad it was I think until outside influences began to percolate through and like you know the huge thing in my lifetime was repealing the eighth amendment which means that like Irish people irish women can now have abortions but that was you know joyous that women irish women or women in ireland finally had control over their actual physicality yeah um of course it's absolutely enormous. This book contains at least one, to me as the mere reader, very satisfying sex scene, Marion. Now, when you write that, have you got,

my grandmother always used to call every priest Father Bunloaf, regardless of what his actual name was, but have you got Father Bunloaf in your head when you're writing your sex scenes? I don't have father bun loaf jane but i have my mother um which is far more frightening than father bun loaf um it you know yeah it's never the worst part is i i voiced the audiobook like and that is just mortifying because it's just me and my lovely um producer roy a man and we're both in this tiny dark little space and it is extraordinarily intimate um but he's great he's great at sort of taking the the utter mortification out of it um so my mother and I, we don't speak about it, that part of it.

You know, she, you know, and in the beginning she would. I mean, she was like genuinely incredibly distressed when people who weren't married to each other had sex. I mean, it sounds maybe funny, but it really, truly bothered her. And 30 years on, she's far more relaxed about it. Yes. I mean, she might be relaxed about it happening, but does she want her daughter to write about it? I mean, that's the thing, isn't it?

Oh, no. I mean, she would really prefer if I didn't. And there are other writers that she would much prefer that I was like. But she and I get on so much better now, which is an incredible gift to me. But yeah, if she had her way, I would not be writing them filthy books. But what can you do? I will just keep on doing it, I'm afraid. No, please keep doing it. Lots of us rely on you to do it. But what is one of the many great things about you

is how keen you are to champion other writers. And honestly, this is a golden age of Irish writing, isn't it? It's fantastic. It's fabulous. I mean, my greatest joy is seeing the confidence of you know young women like in their 20s writing these really interesting like an across the board you know we have literary writers we have crime writers we have uh romance writers like relationship writers like we have it all um and irish people have always been good with words but especially

like Irish women they just didn't have the confidence and now they have the confidence they have a sense of themselves I think as global citizens you know Irish and global because there was a time I mean okay look at Edna O'Brien, who was like such a hugely talented writer. And she wrote very directional books. And A, she was literally banned in Ireland. And B, her parents, who lived in a small town in County Clare, were ostracised by their community when her book came out. I mean, how far we've come. It is absolutely incredible.

If you have a couple of young Irish writers we should look out for, who would you recommend, Marion? Because I ask you this because I know you take great delight in drawing people's attention to writers. Okay, I'm going to say three. There's Nita Dolan. She wrote Exciting Times and The Happy Couple. Oh, my God, she is so times and the happy couple oh my god she is so funny she is so witty and she's so astute then there's a writer called sophie white who writes

in different genres but she's written one about oh it's an incredible it's a kind it's a horror book but it's a it's literary horror it was Tramp Press, who are so well respected. Louise O'Neill is a great friend of mine. She is working on a new book that I have to tell you, if you don't already know about Liz Nugent, Strange Sally Diamond is currently, I think it's Waterstones Crime Book of the Month. And W.H. Smith are also doing a deal. She is a genius. It is such, it's not traditional crime. It transcends genre. It's a very interesting book. So definitely those four. But I mean, I could keep going. That is the brilliant Marion Keys. And I loved the bit there. She says that when she writes sex scenes, and I think she does them rather well because they're not easy to do. She isn't haunted by any priestly figures, but by what her mum might think. It's very sensible. It is very sensible.

But also, one of the many things I like about Marion is that she's so upfront about a load of stuff, but also just takes the time to big up so many other writers. And not every writer does that uh but she she does and she's so supportive particularly of irish female writers so liz nugent i know she's mad about because she mentioned uh strange sally diamond but there are lots of others as well yeah the rooney the rooney lady doesn't need any more publicity really i remember her being very funny as well about you know the the people who kind of casually say oh oh yes well i'm going to

write a book you know and actually if you've written 16 books and it's your entire life and you've utterly aced it it must be quite weird for people to then just kind of assume that they have a similar you know they have something in common with you they've read all your books but they've never written any of them no and that kind of quite care oh yes well i think when i retire i'll write books you gotta think well because anyone can maybe or james martin has but you know we've all got to find something to do in our third age i'm thinking i might develop a career in haulage well exactly i was gonna say it's absurd but yeah if somebody can claim

to become an author when they fancy it then yeah why can't you be a trucker what would you do just pick a random career that you've got no experience in

just to annoy you if you're becoming a haulage long distance lorry driver I'd like to be your trucker's chum and I'll sit up front with you

neither of us could reach the pedals so I don't know what the hell we'll do but anyway we'll just stay at the depot. Right. Many thanks. Have a decent couple of days

and we will gather together again whenever Monday rolls round. Jane and V at times.radio. Do you know what? If you see us in your rearview mirror in a great big Pan Technican bearing down on your bumper, just move lane.

Move country. Well done for getting to the end of another episode of Off Air with Jane Garvey and Fi Glover. Our Times Radio producer is Rosie Cutler and the podcast executive producer is Henry Tribe. And don't forget, there is even more of us every afternoon on Times Radio. It's Monday to Thursday, three till five. You can pop us on when you're pottering around the house or heading out in the car on the school run or running a bank. Thank you for joining us and we hope you can join us again on Off Air very soon. Don't be so silly. Running a bank? I know ladies don't do that. A lady listener.