Off Air... with Jane and Fi - We don't date well (with Elizabeth Strout)

Episode Date: June 11, 2026

Fi's trying to unpick an anxiety dream, and it's brought about some revelations... Jane and Fi also cover the thud of a chest freezer, the second Dalston, brain surgery vs. disk jockeying, the miracle of Peckham, carrying a farmer... "and a 1km run!" Plus, they speak to bestselling author Elizabeth Strout about her new novel 'The Things We Never Say'. You can buy tickets for Fringe by the Sea: https://www.fringebythesea.com/off-air-with-jane-fi-and-special-guest-jan-ravens/Our next book club pick will be a collection of short stories! 'Interpreter of Maladies' is by Jhumpa Lahiri. You can check out our YouTube channel here: https://www.youtube.com/@OffAirWithJaneAndFOur new playlist 'Coiled Spring' is up and running: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/4tmoCpbp42ae7R1UY8ofzaOur most asked about book is called 'The Later Years' by Peter Thornton.If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiPodcast Producer: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

It was just really weird. So I think you were in it in the background. Sorry about that, darling. Often you're in the foreground. I can't believe it. I was trapped at a party in the south of France and I'd lost the keys to the apartment. I'd rented.

And I'd also, I'd lost a stepchild as well, which for me is moving on from the anxiety trees by my own children. And you know, when you know that it's a dream, so you know that you have got the choice to wake yourself up from it but you really genuinely can't it was one of those really powerful powerful powerful pulls and I'm still a little bit disturbed by it now and we're at least four hours nearly five hours on from that

it's really stayed with me I'm sorry to hear that what triggered that though a party in the same what have we done where we've imagined partying I think you know what I think it is I think it's connected to the interview yesterday with Leila Fazad because she's the star of two weeks in August and you think it's that kind of... And it's that party that they had in the middle of the series. Oh God, that's horrible, isn't it?

I'm just wondering whether that might have been it. Yes, it might have been. Yeah, anyway, I think all, you know, all children are safe. Well, you've accounted for everybody. Yes, everyone's... I don't... I know exactly what you mean about that. I know it's a dream, but I can't stop it happening.

That must be just before you wake up, surely your brain is ticking along and actually telling you, Don't panic too much because you're just imagining all this. And consciousness will come to you very soon. I mean, it always happens just before you wake up, doesn't it? Well, it does. But it's as if you can't get to the switch.

No, I know. It's very very far. I think that's an awful lot about the human condition that we don't fully understand yet, Fee. Which brings me to today's guest, the Pulitzer Prize winning writer Elizabeth Strout and her book The Things We Never Say. And in it, there's a great line. And I can't remember now exactly who says it or whether indeed it's

the third person narrator who says it. But the gist of it is being alive is a very private thing. And actually on this podcast, we say a lot of things that most people wouldn't say. Way too much. Way too much. So we're less private than some. Let's just be honest.

But even we only reveal 0.5% of what's whirring around in what passes certainly for my brain. So yes, just generally putting one foot in front of a number, from one day to the next, so much is going on in our heads that we would never reveal to anybody else. I totally get that. It is a very solitary and private experience. And isn't it interesting, Jane, that sometimes when we describe people as having been overtaken by madness, and that's an old-fashioned term, I know, and I don't mean any kind of disrespect at all, it's actually because they start telling the truth, the absolute truth about what's in their heads and their impulses

and their compulsions. So we knock them out with drugs. But it is, yeah, no, you're absolutely right. Yeah, it is very, it's a odd one. Yeah. And we've got quite a lot going on in politics now where people who I think want to, well, they're standing on a platform that I'm not supportive of,

where they're wanting to say that people who are rioting and protesting, and this is happening in Northern Ireland at the moment, after a horrendous attack, somebody has been hospitalized and we don't really know exactly whether he will fully fully recover and he's lost an eye so and somebody has been arrested and charged

so there's not a huge amount that we are able to say and we shouldn't carry on a conversation about that but the reaction to this there is a platform that politicians are standing on where they're saying that people who are protesting and rioting and actually firebombing people, non-white people out of their homes

are speaking a truth and you know you hear them say this and you think oh my word that's one above the dog whistle because it is it is not a truth but if you tell people their bad thoughts are a truth then you enable them don't you i was reading um the times dot com's coverage of the trouble last night in northern ire god corporate kathy's slid and fast yes i'm still here i'm still very much on message still employed gainfully and actually they had a very telling nugget of real life experience One woman that the reporter found had taken her daughter to watch the riots. I have...

Have you found? And did you hear about the other woman who was just sitting happily in a bus stop watching the whole thing unfold and wouldn't move? Well, I'm glad you mentioned this because I actually took a screenshot of it and sent it to a couple of people last night, you know, just to engage in conversation about it. So to absolutely quote from the article, she said she's lived through the trouble she's seen worse,

said a bystander who'd come to watch the unrest with her 11-year-old daughter. We live 20 minutes away and my daughter wanted to come. She loves it, the woman said. I thought it would be calmer than last night, but it's way worse. Well, she's speaking her truth. I mean, to your point. Speaking her truth. She isn't pretending she happened upon the trouble. She took her child to watch it. Because the child loved it. And there's another bit of reporting on the Times.com this morning. And I think it's such a telling

An important quote from a care worker Who had to leave her own home Chased out of it by some They're just thugs They're just moronic thugs They chased her out of her own home And she just makes the point She says, look, I could be caring

She was black I could be caring for your mom or your grand But by the way, I've left my own mum Back at home These people are vile The people who knock on doors And I mean, God Almighty, have a word with yourselves You're despicable

absolutely despicable. And there are some very decent politicians in Northern Ireland. Yeah, there are. You were saying that their economy, we just wouldn't have survived without the people who've come from other countries to do jobs that they couldn't fill. Yeah, well, not with this country.

No, and it's a very small immigrant population in Northern Ireland. I think it's only just about 3%. Relatively speaking, it's tiny. It is tiny. Which doesn't mean, I guess, because there hadn't been very much at all when people start to come, it feels like a greater impact. But there really aren't very many people.

And look, I do have sympathy with people who say, I think perfectly legitimately, they used to be hurling stuff at each other because they were different sorts of Christians. And now racism has brought the community together in some ways and they're chasing after people who happen not to be white. It's pathetic.

There was one lovely, lovely young lad who said, it just makes no sense at all. The Irish have travelled across the globe. Too right. Look at our own attitude to where we're allowed to go. It makes no sense to punish people who've come here. He was only about 17.

Well, he speaks a truth. Speaking of truth I like. What about that sign? No dogs, no blacks, no Irish. It used to be all over boarding houses in this country. So, yeah, it's just a really... It's been a pretty horrible or week, actually, hasn't it?

let's hope things just get a bit calmer over the next couple of days. We talk about chest freezers. Let's talk about chest freezers because many, many people sprung into action late last night to say, yes, of course, in the country, chest freezers. Well, also, people have fond memories of the impact of the chest freezer. Janet says, I enjoyed your banter. When you briefly mentioned the use and need of chest freezers in particular, my mum always had a chest freezer filled with various meat joints.

veg and bread. It was really well used, so much so that eventually the lid had to be propped open with a stick to prevent the user being decapitated by the sudden closing of said lid. Now I remember this. I don't know what it was about the mechanism on chest freezer lids, but they were very, very quick to shut. They really went like that. And if you didn't play your cards right, you were in a lot of bother. My daughter was so close to my mum and when I eventually bought a small chest freezer. Her first comment at the age of about seven or eight was, but where's the stick? That's right, because you didn't have a stick because you had a brand new, fully working, proficient chest freezer. By the way, remember Eve's miracle of Peckham with the phone

that suddenly burst back into life? Yes, vaguely, yes, sorry. Oh no, come on, it was a big event because she lost her phone, she was all over the place, and then something happened at the flat in Peckham. And when it came back to life, didn't it? It's a very special, a very special, I'm surprised you've forgotten that because we're not religious, but it was only a couple of weeks ago. Did you not hear the news of the masses gathering in Peckham to see the miracle?

I didn't. I don't want to slight you at all, but is there an update? Get it? It died again. You wouldn't believe it? Does it come back alive? It's back alive.

Has it been resurrected? It's been resurrected for the second time, and I don't believe even Jesus Christ himself did that. No. There are some people who think that's just about to happen. I just think it's a coinky-dink. That's what I think. By you, I've got some miracle news of my own.

The dryer. Is it the off-air baby at last? Is it? Is it gurgles and cuddles time? I wouldn't even bother mentioning it. If it wasn't triplets, I wouldn't even mention it, and it's not triplets. No. I went to replace my dryer, which is simply not been cooperating for more or less a year now,

talked to a very helpful chap, who actually was as interested in dryers as I am, if I'm honest. but eventually we managed to get around to him selling me one. He seemed to be reluctant, but we've done it now. It's coming on. It's coming tomorrow, for you tomorrow. But I was doing some washing glass night. I thought, I know it won't work, but I'll just stick this duvet cover in the dryer,

just for old time's sake, really. Give it a final outing. Blow me. It worked. It worked. Oh my gosh. It worked. Do you think you just had a little bit?

No, I cleaned out the filter loads of time. My new phone is on the way, so there'll be no more miracles. Okay. Over here. Why do you think yours kept dying? I actually know what I don't want to burst the bubble of the miracle but the charging port broke so I got one of those wireless charges that sticks to the back

you know the magnetic ones yeah so that literally revived it sort of a CPR move yeah if anybody's ever heard of the podcast diary of a CEO it's nothing like this yeah yesterday I had to intervene in the office because there was a conversation going on about what time hot beverage were taken which was just so dull It's so dull. Yeah, but that was at a moment in the afternoon when actually for once in my life

I was trying to do some work. But Eve couldn't get into her computer so they didn't have anything to do. So kept asking me the most inane question. But do you ever have a thing where like all the tech in your life suddenly fails you at once? Yes, it's called a power cut. God, you're young.

My phone had died and then my computer wasn't working and my laptop started being slow. So I just wanted to make some idle chit-chat and it was not warmly received. You certainly did that. Listen, I'm on thin ice. I'm on thin ice. We've just done chest freezers.

The highlight of last week says Jenny was the delivery of my new chess freezer. I can also admit that the recent work done on my garage, the new roof and electrification was purely with my new chest freezer in mind. I'm a fairly newly single person, but I have managed to retain my love of cooking. I hear that a lot of single people

say they struggle to find the motivation or the desire to just, cook for one. Within 48 hours my new freezer was full of batch cooked meals and dinners. I can now look forward to these glorious work nights when I just come home to a ready made meal that I've

you know, she's actually made it herself when it's ready and waiting. That is satisfying. As an aside, I can highly recommend serving size silicon moulds. Serving size silicone moulds. Freeze pop and bag, says Jenny, who's living her best life. Well, I mean...

Well, I mean... Well, you and I have very, very fond of the different storage solutions now on offer in the world. And actually the silicone mould is the thing of beauty, isn't it? I mean, it makes popping your ice cubes. Yeah, well, it's quite wonderful. Yeah, because it's almost instant, isn't it? It's very little. It's loose and it's very bending, and you don't lose a fingernail in the process.

So many people listen to us in Dulston and Cumbria. It's a very small place, Dalston and Cumbria. I'm very fluttered by this. Yes, yeah. So can we say hello to Anne from Thursby? which is near Dalston. I should have put them in order, shouldn't I? I've got a little bit distracted by that picture.

Maybe I'll have an email out. We'll talk about that. And also Sarah, who loves the podcast, and she's lived in both Dalston's, which I think is... Well, that must put her in a very... I would say a unique position. Very much so.

And this is quite a small, concentric circle as well, because we've got a fee who lives in Dalston. in Cumbria as well. Right. And she had to pull over to send the email which might make her late

for picking up her daughter from school after her maths GCE. Which I think was okay. It was the A level that was... It was terrible. Confused of Cornwall emailed last week to ask about the recommendation I'd made which turned out to be Peter Granger.

She's read the first one as advice. Core. What a Corker. What writing? What a fabulous chap D.S. Smith is. Now Robert Partridge, real name of Peter Granger, is in, I think, next Thursday. Is that correct? That's correct. Yep. So treats a go-go for you.

They're confused. And you also ask whether or not we've read the correspondent. And we have. Have you read it yet, actually? Virginia Evans. I haven't read it. Yes. I wonder whether that means that you're onto that one or you've already read it.

Let us know your thoughts. I thought it was really, really brilliant. I properly had to concentrate, though. and I rather felt that by the end of it because it's just a series of correspondence. Does she write to friends? So it's emails and letters that all put together across the timeline

tell the story of what's happening, but you really do have to concentrate. Well, what is happening? A lot. Well, it would completely give the game away to say. Oh, I see, right, okay. So is it a thriller? Yes.

No, it's more of a saga. I think it's more of a personal saga. Right. But I definitely felt that I could have benefited from concentrating way more at the beginning when all of the different people are introduced via their emails that they're sending and stuff. But it is cracking. It's very, very good writing. I think you'd like it too. Sorry, I just want to go back, pop back briefly to chest freezers. Stephen says, I can confirm that in deepest, darkest, Dorset, almost everyone we know has one. Well, you would, though, wouldn't you? No, I don't think, no, so I think it's just necessary.

Because you can't pop out and, you know, get something that you've forgotten at 10 o'clock on a Friday night. Why are men photographing us through the door window, Eve? They're perverts. They're not perverts. I believe they're the security personnel of someone very, very important from Ukraine. Oh, okay. Oh, right. Well, let's not.

Fair enough. I remember my parents getting their chest freeze in 1970, and it's only very recently given up the ghost and stopped working. could that be Britain's longest serving chest freezer fee? What do you think? I don't know. Let's put it out there and let's see whether or not we can find one that is even more ancient. A good old tabloid staple, the still functioning light bulb from 1945 or whatever it might be.

I haven't seen a chest freezer in the tabloids lately, but this is the time. Come on, let's get involved. Do you have an ancient and still fully functioning chest freezer? even remembers the highlight of going to bejums. Was bejums? Bejums. I didn't recognise the name. I'm much younger than you, Jane. Buying large tobs of vanilla ice cream. That was the subtle status symbol of having room for a gallon. He says, apart from whole butchered animals, people in the country may have more space to accommodate a large white good, but also grow a lot of their own produce, vegetables and fruit, most of which comes at the same time, so freezing and

Often blanching, remember that, avoids waste. I'm so far unaware of anybody keeping a body in theirs, but maybe I should have a peek, sir Stephen. Blanching, honestly, whatever happened to that, seriously? People were doing it all the time. Blanching. I think that's still blanch spinach. Don't you?

Wait, just stick it under the tap. Yes. Well, you know, no, you stick it in very, very hot water and then pull it out very quickly. Oh. Because otherwise it goes very slimy, doesn't it? I don't know. I think that's what Blanching means.

I was going to query the singular good, whether or not you can have a white good. I always thought it was just white goods. You couldn't have a single, you know, you couldn't phone up a plumber and say, my white good has gone wrong when you meant your dishwasher or whatever it was. I don't know, Fia.

I've never been in that position. I think you probably just call it the washing machine. Yes, you probably would. In those circumstances. We're not keeping Zelensky waiting out there, are we? No, they're just don't. a recky. Oh, I see. Are we allowed to say that? It's not actually Slensky. Right, so this is going to remain anonymous. I thought this was really fascinating. I was

listening to the pod when you mentioned her chatting to AI and being surprised and alarmed by a personal warm response. I've had a rough 12 months for various reasons, including a house move, a very stressful job and a whole lot of heartbreak from quite a toxic relationship. I recently started back on antidepressants and have regular therapy, but I'm quietly ashamed to admit I've been using chat GPT on a near daily basis to manage my mental health. I'm ashamed, but I'm not sure why. No friends know, and I've not even admitted it to my therapist, but in between therapy sessions and when my heart feels like it's breaking, it's become a crutch to help me talk through my feelings and manage my emotions.

I know it isn't a real person. I know I should be worried about all the information I've shared, but it has genuinely helped me cope, especially as I got used to antidepressants and the inevitable mood fluctuations that came with them. I don't think this is an answer to the mental health crisis and I'm now actively trying to use it less but it is disturbingly difficult to now drop the habit. I will stop relying on chat GPT eventually. I do still talk to friends and family but without AI therapy chat I really don't know how I would have got through the past year. Isn't that interesting? Well it's interesting and also I wouldn't dream of judging anybody who's I mean to go back to our first conversation today who's having a private, private battle.

Yeah. But what's interesting is the shame that our correspondent feels about it. And I think that's just the place that we're in at the moment because it is a very new form of technology because it isn't human, but it's pretending to be, because there is just such a negativity around AI, much of which I think is entirely valid.

but it's I mean I sympathise my example you know was something absolutely tiny by it compared to yours but I do recognise that feeling of feeling slightly kind of embarrassed to have shared and a little bit ashamed of my reaction which was the emotional one of gratitude that chat GPT was being nice to me

we're having a bit of kind of bans and it is very strange but I think if it's helping you I mean that's the whole point isn't it this is what we've talked about before if it elicits a response in you that is helping you, are we right to condemn it? And could we ever not have that response?

We're so in the foothills of this, aren't we? And people will, if they ever do listen to this conversation again in 20 years' time, we'll find it laughable that we were having this discussion, I think, in some ways. We don't, we don't date well sometimes, do we? No, I really don't think we do. I just think if this entity is helping you get from one day to the next, again, going back to the book and what you'll hear about in the conversation with Elizabeth Stroud, then who is anyone else to judge?

And by the way, you're self-aware enough to have written to us about it, so you may not have told people, but you are able to express your disquiet. And that suggests to me that you are highly intelligent and emotionally intelligent. and you are aware of what some people might perceive as the negative aspects of this. But that's them. This is you. And if you're feeling a little better, then you carry on. And I would say as well, you're not the only person doing that, obviously. And I've had a similar conversation with a couple of people recently

who've said that they've asked chat GPT, other ones are available, yadda, to have a conversation with them about difficult things that they're going through. And they have found the response enormously helpful. particularly to do with children and decisions about teenagers and worry and trips and all that kind of stuff because actually also you can ask it for fact whether or not it is all of the facts we don't yet know but it can be helpful sometimes when you're trying to stabilise you know that kind of out of control armagedonising so I know people who are also in therapy themselves you know who have found it to be a useful prop. So let's have more of a conversation about it. And as Jane says, I think the fact that you know

it's become a little bit addictive is a sign that you're actually, you're able to recognize its place in your world. It is not your entire world. No. And people turn to all sorts of props to get them through tough times, don't they? Yeah, and so you should. Well, it depends, unless it's alcohol or drugs and it makes you even more vulnerable to a multitude of other things. So I would say thank you for sharing that because you won't be the only person going through that experience. And I hope you are feeling better. It sounds as though it's helped you.

And by the way, for anyone who's listening thinking, oh my God, what are these two old twits whittering on about? It can be so, so damaging to young people. We know that. And there obviously have been some horrendous stories about where AI has taken. the young mind because it doesn't stop. It doesn't get to the point where it says, do you know what, I think you're in real trouble, put your phone down, go and speak to a real

person. It has not done that. It doesn't appear to be capable of doing that. It's not in the algorithm. The algorithm says keep chatting. That's what it's been built. So we're not being complete numpties on that front. Is that true? So at no point would it say you need to call your GP? No, there have been some terrible cases, Jane, of kids who have come to the ultimate harm because of a conversation that they've been having where actually the AI has sought to encourage the behaviour in order to keep the conversation going. You know, that is the infinite scroll, isn't it?

That's the massive problem with so much of this stuff. It doesn't have a guardrail, it doesn't have a cut-off point. And it should. I mean, it just absolutely needs to. Yeah, I mean, I must admit, my interaction with AI has been incredibly limited. I appreciate that every time I Google something, that is effectively AI, isn't it? But I haven't consulted it for anything else. I am the Anora Luddite.

There's absolutely no doubt about that. But I guess I could ask it to book my holiday, for example. It would do that, wouldn't it? Yes, it would definitely be able to recommend lots of things. Yes. Okay. But you've got EVE for that with her studying knowledge of the Greek islands. I don't know.

Yeah, you're right. I don't need her. I've got a PA. She's right here. As if. Now, we need to mention our friend who's in this image here. Oh, my word. It's Louise. Now, it's quite a long email, Louise, and I've thoroughly enjoyed it. But if I could just paraphrase the beginning of it, you tell us that essentially you've had a hip replacement. You've been fit and active most of your adult life, you say, fitness instructor, yoga teacher. but was finding increasing pain and loss of movement in your right hip.

To cut a long story short, you did have a hip replacement. She opted for a spinal anaesthetic with no sedation and listened to an audiobook while the installation of my bionic hip was being performed. She actually listened to Jay Rainer's Greedy Man in a Hungry World, especially the chapter on a £30 chicken, whilst in the faint background, something like the sound of the builders in next door. He was looking a bit chast, she's looking a bit chastened. that reference to me. Yes, I've never had an operation like that whilst I've been conscious.

I cannot imagine what that's like. I really can't. My brother-in-law's just had a hit replacement and he wasn't conned out either. He was conscious. It must be so odd. Do you remember we talked to the brain surgeon who was pioneering the brain surgery that involved keeping the patient awake? Yeah, yeah. I'm making a face. That's a skill set. I'd say it was even harder than being a disc jockey. I really would. Now, what's happened to Louise is that nine weeks after this operation, she flew to Sri Lanka to teach a yoga retreat that she had already booked, and then once home, she went back to the gym and started easing back into her fitness routine of running and lifting weights.

Fast forward, two and a half years later, she's about to go to Stockholm to compete in her age group, the 60 to 64's, High Rocks World Championship. in both solo and mixed doubles races. Now, she does ask if we're aware of what Hirox is. I wasn't, were you? Nope. Okay. It involves, I mean, I don't know whether I can go through all of this,

but it just gives you an idea of what Louise and her fellow competitors are going to do. A one-kilometer run, that would be enough. There's that point I'd just go to the bar and need a bag of crisps. A one-kilometer run, a one-kilometer ski, a one-kilometer run, a 50 metre sled push a 1 kilometre run a 50 metre sled pull another 1 kilometre run

an 80 metre burpee broad jump another 1 kilometre run a 1 kilometre row could be row a 1 kilometre run 200 metres farmers carry A 1 kilometre run 100 metre sandbag lunges

A 1 kilomet honour run 100 wall balls Wall balls What's a wall recognised? What's a wall ball. But after all that, I'd want to bounce up and down on a wall ball. Is there a one kilometre run?

That's the end. In summary, total hip replacement is a big deal, and it does take a bit of planning around recovery. But we're so much stronger than we think, and there isn't a single day that goes by when I'm not grateful for my new bionic hip. I feel like I've got my life back, and apart from regaining my fitness levels at my grand old age, I'm able to play with my grandchildren. get on the floor with them, get involved at soft play, and generally be fun nana, and most importantly, not to be a burden on my family.

Louise, I cannot begin to imagine what taking part in that event is like, but well done you. Phenomenal, phenomenal. All of those, I mean, let alone just the one kilometre run, so what is that, 8 kilometres, 10 kilometres in total? But to stop and do all of those other things is just incredible. Of the options on offer, I think I'd be happiest with the 200. meters farmers carry. I don't know what that means. Do you just carry a farmer?

Yes. Okay, so I'd pick a very small one. Well, you could ask Jeremy Clarkson. Or you could ask Minnet batters. Okay, well, of the two. I'm a much fonder of Minette. Yeah, so I'd choose her. Yeah.

She wasn't a large woman. She was a guest earlier in the week. He hasn't had Clarkson on, nor will we. Wow, I mean, that's just, I find the, these Uber endurance, highfalutin sporting events, just quite extraordinary. You know, the mega runs, the Ultramarathans and the Iron Man Challenge. I haven't got any of it in me. But I do do pelageas once a week.

I'm also just full of admiration for people who do the third age stuff. I think it's so fantastic. And especially people who take it up in their third age. And it is quite appealing when you've got a bit more time on your hands. I think I mean, I'm just going to go to the university of the third age where you just have really interesting talks. And flapchacks. And flapchacks.

Although there's nothing worse than a flapjack on the turn in my experience. You know, they should be soft and giving. And when they're really hard, you don't want them. All the bits end up in your two. No, terrible. A good flapjack is a thing of wonder. A bit more travel advice. Charlotte is in Rouen, which I've never been to.

Rourne in France. Is that where Joan of Arc came from? Yes, it's in Normandy, isn't it? It's got the most amazing cathedral. We've been to a service at that cathedral. Oh gosh, I bet that was amazing. It was, yep. And it was very long.

It was around the Easter time, obviously, a very important place in the calendar. But it was just extraordinary, yeah. Proper wow. Well, that's where Charlotte finds herself. She says, this is back to driving in France, and our expert who said, in whichever country you're driving in,

you just have to remember, the steering wheel is always closest to the middle of the road. And as Charlotte says, don't follow this advice if you're driving a French car in the UK. Okay, we get it. I live in France. I drive my French car regularly in the UK with no problem. However, I now find it really hard to drive a British car if it means changing gears with my left hand. I once had a bizarre conversation with a Frenchman who said he thought all British people were left-handed for that reason.

One of the many strange assertions about the British and the things we do that I've heard from the French in the nearly 30. years I've been here. Well I guess the French make assumptions about us in exactly the same embarrassing way that we make assumptions about them. So let them go ahead, I say. Can't really blow. And the idea that all the British were left-handed is very sweet. It is. I've never really thought about that either, but most people are right-handed. So in theory, if you're driving what the Americans like to call a stick shift, then it would be easier if the steering wheel was on the left. I still think it's just a really, really obvious flaw in the motoring industry that there was ever a left-hand drive and a right-hand drive. I mean, you just would have got together, wouldn't you?

And just said, let's just all have the same thing. Why do different countries have different driving? Well, why do different countries drive on different sides of the road? Yes, why? I don't know, Fee. And is it more common to drive on the left like we do, or more common to drive on the right? Well, we're not common at all times, so I don't know. I possibly don't know.

I can drive whatever side of the road they like. We just drive straight down the middle. It's about everyone else to get out of the way. Now, parrots, there's another parrot man that's in your neck of the worst. I know. Have you never seen the Fulham Parrot Man? I haven't. But then I don't go to Fulham very often.

Do you not? No. Well, you're east-west Kensington. Yes. But proximity to the borough of Hammersmith and Fulham. Yeah, but it's funny. In Hammersmith, we don't really go to Fulham. And does Fulham come to Hammersmith?

Well, you can walk down the river to Fulham if you must. And in fairness, I have been to the football, so I've just lied again. It slips out. It's terrible. I mean, I've got a criminal record as long as your arm. It's absolutely terrible. Well, I've said for a long time that you're just in a very, very obvious witness protection scheme. You're not who you say you are at all.

And the older you get, the more little things do slip out. But I do wonder what your crime was. I would like a very, very thorough DBS check please on this woman. Oh, yes, we wanted to put this out because we were talking about where we'd be watching the World Cup games and Jane Garvey said that she has never watched a football match in a pub and even I just couldn't believe this and we think it might be one of those things

where actually there's a lot of photographic evidence and if we put it out there, shush, if we put it out there to you, the hive, there might be a flood of email. with attachments. No, nonsense. I shall prove that you have been to a pub. I have been to watch it in a bar.

It came back to me in the middle of the night. But that was in Greece. But I think you must have, in your time on five live trips. Oh, God. Well, yeah, I don't count those bloody endless. Well, it's all coming out now. This is multiple examples now. Yesterday you swore blind.

I think you'd never watch football in a pub. In this country. Oh, come on, here we go. in this country in the month of May whilst wearing matching underwear. No, it's not that specific. All right, can we talk about the parrot in Fulham? Let's get back to the parrots in Fulham.

Anyway, we'll take those pictures if anyone's got one, especially if she's a little bit lairy. You won't like this, Fee, but here in Fulham, we've got our own parrot man who's often seen on the Fulham Road with one previously two massive bluey green parrots on his shoulder. Now, I have studied that man. and it's not the same man who was in Hackney. No, because the man in Hackney was much, much older

and his parrot was largely red, and these ones are bluey grey. Marion says, I think I saw your parrot man, Fiona Hampstead. He's station in January, wanted to email you a photo. I did ask him before I took it, but that didn't work. If you let me have your WhatsApp number, I'll have another try. Marion, are you a scam? I'm not giving you that. We're not going to be fooled.

How did you come to give away your entire life savings? Well, officer, a woman called Marion said that she had a photograph of a man. I'm a parrot. Yeah. You won't get us that way. I'm wise to it now. Yes, you're super savvy.

Now, look, the Men's World Cup is starting today. There's absolutely no getting away from it. And I am going to struggle to go back to the earlier conversation. I did try to stay up for some of England's friendly last night against Costa Rica. Delayed. Delayed by an hour. I mean, that was just point. I just couldn't do it.

Do you think that's an omen? I think it is an omen. Apparently they played quite well. So we're going to win it now. All bets are off. Well, they're not off. They're on. Because we're going to win it.

No problem at all. And we've got our very exciting draw. Our own draw. Yeah, well, that's a sweep draw. Yeah. I think there'll be excitement sweeping the office at approximately five past four when we draw the names and the countries out of two separate hats. And there's no way.

We're not going to prioritize our colleagues or anything. are we? So Eve will be lucky if she gets Azerbaijan at this rate. Yeah. But we were saying earlier that we're very open to Brides because that would be quite on brand. Well, that's exactly what FIFA would have wanted. But Claire has taken issue with a conversation we had on the radio program yesterday. That's on Times Radio 2 till 4 Monday to Thursday. You can access it like I do on the Times Radio app, which is free, completely free. We had a conversation with a woman called Gene Williams, Professor of the History of Sport. And it was very, really along, that the conversation was along the lines of, is football English? Is it actually English?

And she said, well, the rules were written by the English Football Association in 1863, so we can lay claim to that. But guess what Claire tells us, the rules of football? Well, they were actually written by some University of Cambridge students in 1848. There were 11 rules and they were pinned up on trees around Parker's Peace in Cambridge where the games were played. They needed them because they'd been playing at school, but each school had its own different... Sorry, that's my stomach. Each school had its own different rules. In order to play as college teams, where they were made up of players from different schools,

they needed to agree a common set of rules. As an aside, half-time was invented in schools football, not to give the players a rest, but to swap to the rules of the opposing team. What? I.E. one half was played to one set of rules and the second to the other. I mean, I'd like to, I mean, I wouldn't put it past, what's his name, in Fantino, to introduce that in this year's World Cup. That would be absolutely astonishing. God, that's very, that's very fascinating, actually, Claire.

Thank you very much. The FA rules were based on the Cambridge rules, but didn't come into play until some years later. Okay, thank you. I find that a fascinating piece of social history. Very much so. And do you know much about the kind of spin-offs from football? What's Aussie rules? Oh, I do.

Good question, no idea. When did that? That's a melange of rugby and football, isn't it? But of our Australian listeners will be able to fill us in there. Yes. Well, look, we hope everybody enjoys the World Cup. We hope it goes off without incident. And, I mean, there's been so much chat about all the people who are very unhappy

and can't go and won't go and just hugely inflated fees for absolutely everything around the games and people who've been stung already. You know, we're in that negative hinterland, it's always the same. And when it gets going, hopefully, I'll see you down the pub. Oh, yeah.

Yeah, absolutely, I'll be there. Pork scratchings, England's shirt on. Come on! Come on, boys. Bring it, bring it home. to Cambridge. And also let's give a nod to our Scottish listeners who can just have the last laugh

at all of this absurd patriotism. Oh God, I mean, based on something that happened centuries ago, literally in the last century. It's possible that Scotland get further in the tournament than England. And they do have a much healthier attitude towards it, don't they? They're just having much more of a laugh because they can afford to not invest quite so heavily as we all do.

I'm afraid to say that some people in England and honestly think that it's our right to win. It isn't. I know, and it says so much about us as a country, Jane, not in a good way. No. Oh, dear. Today's guest is a real, real legend. Yes, what she's doing sitting amongst this chest freezer chat. I don't really know.

Pulitzer Prize-winning novelist Elizabeth Strout has written another bestseller, the incredibly moving The Things We Never Say. Elizabeth is the woman who's given us Lucy Barton and Olive Kittridge and now she has a new central character, History teacher Artie Dam. Everyone likes Artie. And on the surface, he's a really jolly chap.

Elizabeth, absolutely lovely to see you. Lovely to see you as well, thank you. And it's such an honour because I think this is your best book. No pressure, so I'm not quite sure how you're going to follow it. How do you judge how good a book is when it's finished? funny because I usually like my last book the best, but I really do like this one the best, even though it's my last book. There's a special thing for me about this book. Why? I don't know, because it felt risky to write it, not just because of the topic, but because of the narrative

differences that I made in choosing how to tell the story. And I just felt like, I just think I'll just go for it and try it. So what are the differences? Location, you have moved slightly. Right, but But at times the narrator directly addresses the reader and then steps back. And that's a little strange for me to have done that. Using the parentheses, let's just put it that way. And going forward and then going, you know, and I thought, I don't know if that works. But then when I read it all over, I thought I'm going to stay with that. And do you think you are a good judge of your work?

I think at this point I am. Okay, right. But I'm not sure. You've had a fair bit of success along the way, the odd bullet surprise. So you probably are a good judge. Okay, let's talk about the change in location. You've moved a little bit away from Crosby and Maine to... Massachusetts.

Right, which is how far away, actually? Oh, it's just a couple of states away, but it's culturally different. I mean, Massachusetts has more people, even though it's a smaller state, has more people, more money, more class differences. I mean, everything is more in Massachusetts because Maine is quite rural. And the lead character, the central character, the voice, the person we really come to know and really like is a man. Yes. Now, I know you've written lots of significant male characters before, but is it right that you've never had a male lead character in one of your books?

Well, I always thought of Bob Burgess as being, you know, a lead character, but not, I guess, like Artie is. And also, in Abide with me, that was a male, Tyler Kasky, Reverend Tyler Kasky. Yeah, okay, but that was years ago. Artie is a 57-year-old history teacher, and he is, he's initially, described, I'm trying to remember, is it cheerful? He's described as... Jovial, jovial, that's right, right. He's described as jovial by one of his oldest friends.

Right. And he's urged to stay jovial. Right. We discover that he's not actually cheerful. Precisely. Precisely. What's wrong with him? Well, when I wrote that first paragraph, I wanted that word jovial in there. That's one reason I started with that, because I wanted people to understand that already was thought of as jovial.

And then we find out a few months later that he's been having some desperate thoughts. And then I realized he's been feeling that because his wife has intermittently pulled back every so often in a way that she hasn't. And then his son has pulled back quite a bit. And then I figured out why. So we're not going to reveal that, I guess, right? But anyway, so it kind of told itself to me in a strange way.

It's brave because you acknowledge loneliness. You often write about loneliness. Olive Kittridge was lonely. and you talk about that, write about that brilliantly, but he's married and lonely. Yeah, right. Does that happen more often? Hello?

Does it happen more often than we acknowledge, do you think? I mean, I really don't know because I've only been in two marriages myself. So, but I think that people can feel lonely in a marriage, even if it's a good marriage at times, they can feel lonely in a marriage. People can feel lonely anytime, anywhere. Yes. And then get over it. And they do get over it.

And we think that Artie is, well, he's wrestling with the thing that we won't talk about. Right. Sorry everybody, but yeah. Yeah, well, that's why you've got to read the book. Anyway, you've got to read the book. You've just got to read this. He is someone who actually, and it's heartbreaking, how much he is loved and respected. And to what degree does he know that, do you think? I don't think he knows it fully.

I mean, he knew that he was teacher of the year, but he was a little tiny bit embarrassed by that. and he's just, he doesn't understand how loved he is. He's just Ardi, which is what I love about him, is that he's not doing things for praise. He's doing things because he's just himself and he's just a decent guy trying to get through life and finding the exterior world bumping up into his interior world. And at the time, the book is set at the run-up to the re-election of Donald.

Trump. Now, is the book in any way political, or does it just hint at the ambiguities of... I guess it's what people, whether, you know, if people want to call it political, I guess it is, but I was thinking about it in terms of place and time in history, because all my books are placed in a place and a time in history, and this is Ardy's time in history, and he's a history teacher so he recognizes in a special way what might be happening and it's going to affect him in a special way because he's already and he's a history teacher yeah and he teaches well just explain what happens he's called into the head teachers office so he's been teaching the civil war for many years and he teaches it to these Massachusetts students he assigns them each a soldier or a nurse

from Massachusetts who were who you know somebody in the civil war and they look at their letters and they take on the identity and all that stuff. He's been doing that for years and he's called into the principal's office and the principal says the school board is starting to ask why you don't do Confederate soldiers. And that for anybody who wants to know or is aware, and even if they're not, they'll find out, that's the beginning of a change in the outer world that will affect Arty's inner world. Because he is not on that side of politics. He isn't Trumpy, although he does in the course of the book come across someone. Yeah, who's quite lovely.

Lovely man, Kenneth Moynihan. A thoroughly decent Trump supporter. Exactly. And has that happened to you? Yes. I mean, I'm not expecting you to tell me that you're not a Trump supporter, but I imagine you're not. I'm not at all a Trump supporter.

I'm not even remotely. Right. But is there, I don't know, do you sometimes get irked by people who do share your politics but are not prepared to see that there are some decent people. Very much so. The country is just as divided as it can be, and it gets more so and more so,

and the left is just as bad at that as the right. So what can you do about that? Do you worry about that? I worry about it a lot, a tremendous amount, and I don't know what I can do, except trying to be open to whoever crosses my path, as long as we're not talking about politics. Yeah, but as you acknowledge in the book,

I'm just not going to talk about it. one good person who is a Trump supporter and they just decide they won't talk about politics. They never talk about it. But is that really the way forward, just not talking about it? Well, it's the only thing that we can do at the moment. And it's the only thing I can do at the moment is not talking about it. It's not going to change anything for us to have conversations about it at this point. I mean, the people that I know.

So we just are going on with our friendships, which I think is actually the most important. Yeah. Well, it's hugely important that friendship actually forms a significant, part of this book as well. Artie, he lives, I really understood this actually. My mother died relatively recently. My dad is still alive, but elderly. And my parents do dominate my thoughts in a way that, quite frankly, they didn't.

Precisely. 20 years ago. What's happening? Isn't it interesting? And it happens to Artie. Yeah. And as I have gotten older, I think more about my, it's so interesting to me. but I think so much more about them because I realized I didn't know them.

And when you're growing up, you think, I know exactly who you are. You're my mother. You're my father. I know exactly who you are. But then you get older and you realize, I don't have a clue who you were in many ways. You do, but you don't. And you, you know, so. And then after I wrote this book, I've been thinking more about my parents. Have you? What would have you thought? I just realized, you know, like I have gotten a couple of people in different signing lines or a couple of letters from people that knew my father years ago.

in a really quite warm, intimate way. And I realized, wow, I didn't know. I didn't know he was important to that person or that. I mean, I just didn't know. And has it made you change your view of your father? No, but it's made me change my understanding that he had a whole world that I just didn't know about. Yeah, it's frustrating, isn't it?

Yeah, all those conversations that you could have had that you don't. Yes, precisely. Yeah. I wonder, your mother, I think, I've looked at an interview in where you say that she used to comment. on passers-by and form opinions about what their home life was like.

Just explain that. Right. Well, I didn't grow up around a lot of people, but two places that I grew up were very isolated. And so when I would go into town, as a really little kid, with my mother. And what sort of a town, was it?

A very small town. Oh, very small town, but there were at least people in it. Yeah. And so, you know, and I would be sitting in the backseat with my mother and my father would go do his business or whatever. And I can remember being a very young girl and some woman walked by.

This is just one example. I've used it before, but one, you know, I remember some woman walked by, and my mother said something about like, oh, she doesn't look too happy to be getting home to her husband. And I was like, how do you know that? Well, look at her.

Her coat hasn't been hemmed for quite a while. You know, and I just, I couldn't believe it. I would, like, scramble over the seat to see what my mother was talking about with this woman. She'd seen something. Yeah. And she did that again and again with people, you know and like it wasn't even that long ago she was looking at a hotel window one day when I was with her and she said

second wife and I was like wait a minute how do you know that's a second wife and I went and I looked I thought okay right second wife she's got it and is it true that you didn't have a television no we did not have a television so did you know what other people were watching on television a little bit why didn't you have a television because they didn't believe in it they didn't think it would catch on or they didn't think they just didn't like it they didn't believe in television and of I guess you're the proof that actually... It was actually quite good for me as a writer, I realize now, yeah. Well, would you have been so successful if you'd grown up watching the same old dross as the rest of us?

I think I probably would not have been because I think that I look back now and I think TV is like, you know, it's like a screen, it sucks you in, you just get to leave the world but not in your head necessarily as much as, you know, I mean, being alone so much, I read all the time. I read and I would go play in the woods a lot by myself and be very happy alone in the woods as a small child by myself in a way that I don't think would have happened if I'd been set in front of the TV. So would you recommend, I've got an email here from a listener who just wants you to know how much you mean to her. But would your advice to a writer be, don't be lazy, read when you know your friends are all watching the telly?

Oh, I would, if you want to be a writer, then you must read. copiously. Yes, read every, I mean, read all the good work you can. Don't read bad work. That's not helpful to you. But read really good sentences. Just read and read and read. Okay. It's Lois, the listener, and she just says, when I was younger, I always thought I wanted to be a writer when I grew up, but somewhere along the way that seemed impractical, it was put aside for a law degree and all those professional steps that follow thereafter. I've also got an 18-month-old. I think having my daughter has made me think even more about my old ambition. Yeah. Well, she should go back to it, shouldn't she?

Absolutely. Oh, absolutely. She should go back to it and take it seriously and not tell anybody. She does say, Elizabeth, every book of Elizabeth Strouts I've ever read has left me the feeling I cannot properly articulate. It's a kind of happy sadness in the miracle, mystery and universality of human lives and relationships. Oh, that's so lovely. Thank you, Lois. Yeah, well, Lois, I hope you're happy that Elizabeth has actually... Thank you so much. She's actually heard that email. Thank you so much for sending it in, Lois. that the really sad sentence in the book is it was a private thing to be alive. Now, tell me exactly what you mean by that.

Well, when I wrote that sentence, I was pleased with it. The moment I wrote it, I thought, okay, that's going to stay. And I think it was the word private. Because private, as I thought about later, private has no judgment. It's just a word that describes what I was trying to get for Artie. It's a private thing to be alive. because we only share what sort of percentage of ourselves

do we have I don't know I mean with some people we share a lot at certain times with other people you know it's always moving we're just made of so many different moving parts all the time but the one of the there are so many frustrating things about Artie's existence and he really doesn't know how much people

admire and love him but it's the fact that he's perceived in one way and he perceives himself in another right and how can we we can never, ever change that, can we? But that's exactly it. That's why, and that's why when the narrator, toward the beginning, I think in the first third of the book, the narrator directly tells the reader how blind we are, how blind, and says something about how we move through the world, not knowing who we are

and just bumping into shadows. And that was risky for me to do, but I thought, I'm going to leave that because that's what I'm trying to tell you, the reader. Yeah, no, I mean, it's true that I wonder whether you know how other people perceive you. you haven't got a clue no i have not got a clue no i really don't so your friends your best friends people you've probably known for decades they would consider you to be jovial you seem jovial i seem jovial i don't know i i just don't know

how they perceive me i mean obviously they like me they love me they stuck around they've stuck around but um but it's interesting and and i'm not sure that they know how they are perceived either so what we should all take from this is what, that we're actually more loved than we realized? I think probably we are, yeah. And I'm not, I don't actually, with all respect, I don't think that's a real problem necessarily

that we don't know how we're perceived. I'm just stating it as a, you know, possibility that many of us do not know how we're perceived. We might think we do, but we don't really, because we can't get into the other person's head. I know that a lot of teachers listen, particularly to the podcast that I do, with Fee, who's also a big fan of yours, I should say. And teachers work hard. Yeah, oh my word,

they are sometimes hugely underrated, I think. Would you recommend that a disillusioned teacher reads this book? Yes, yes. What will they get from it? Well, I hope they get that what they do matters for maybe generations. I mean, they, if you're a teacher, I think that it's the biggest act of faith because you just don't know. You give and you give and you give and you have no idea where that will land or when it will land. Did you have a really significant teacher? I had a couple of teachers that made an impact on me, but not quite like Artie. But I have seen this with people and their teachers and it may take years. So that's why I say it's an act of faith because the teacher who's listening to this, just accept you might not ever know, but you will be affecting somebody. Yeah, so

be of good heart. Yes. And also the book has not quite random acts of kindness, but acts of decency from individuals towards other individuals that in some cases they never know about. Right. And they're worth doing, aren't they? I mean, there's one that Artie does to help a pupil. Just explain what that is. Oh, is that when he finds the person writing. Okay, so Danny has written in obscenity on the wall and Artie brings him in and the guy kids scared to death that he's going to be kicked out of school or something

but Artie is quite gentle with him and Artie actually says you know I don't blame you for wanting to write that and the guy's like what? He's like why why don't you blame me? And he goes because I want to say that to people too and that like opens up a whole new world for that kid. He cannot

believe that this jovial teacher that everybody loves actually feels like saying that to people and then Arty says next time you want to do that, just keep in your head. So he does give him an advice about it. But in my mind, that was so incredibly generous of Artie to share with this young man that he himself has those feelings.

And it changes, Danny. Yeah, I mean, it changes the young man tremendously. And that's really notable. So, yes, you're back to just supporting the long-term impact of teachers. Can we also just acknowledge some of the things about middle age that you talk about? the fact that Artie has he wears particular socks

doesn't he? Yes. What are they? They're white socks. They're just really sort of I don't know how you describe them but they're old man socks. Yeah, they're all man white socks

with his old man black sneakers. And the thing that really got to me was that he occasionally has dirty glasses. Yeah, toward the end especially. There's just nothing you can do about that. No, and that was so sad and that's why I had the student mentioned if I ever get that old, I'm, you know, never mind.

But the, yeah, the old man dirty glasses. toward the very end. Lots of your readers will have, well, I was going to say affection for Olive Kittridge. They will have affection for Olive Kittridge, but she was a rumbustious lady, not always easy to love. She was a teacher too.

Yes, she was. Would she have got on with Artie? You know, if they were teaching together, I don't know. I don't know. I think she was rather prickly. I can't, that's a very, well, she would have been teaching much earlier than Artie,

so, you know, the classrooms would have been different and she was teaching about. I don't know. That's a very good question. I think he'd have hated her actually. Yes. Thank you. So having told you that this is the best book you've ever written,

where does that leave you in terms of, not my praise cuts for a vision safe? Lovely to hear it. No, no, honestly. Where do you go next? And do you have a character in mind? I have a couple of characters in mind. I actually can't talk about it because it's bad for the work.

I can't tell you, is what I'm trying to say. But is there something already in the works? There is. There's two different things I'm playing with. Okay, that's... Making a mess with both of them, and we'll see. Making a mess? Yes, I'm a very messy worker.

All right. And just for forward-be writers, let's just get the advice of someone who really is at the top of her game. How many words a day do you have... Oh, I don't. I don't even know how many words are on it, but I don't do it that way. I never do it that way.

I just try when I have that... I mean, I write almost... Every day? Well, no, not every day. But I will write many days a week. And it varies, you know. But I do try and write every day. But I have learned to get rid of the bad stuff more quickly, which is very helpful.

You edit as you go along. Yes, I edit every sentence. As I go along, I'm changing it or will change it right afterwards. Your books are not long, and they don't have to be long to make... No, they're getting shorter. Well, but I mean that's a good thing If you get so much said Yes, exactly

And this one came out very You know like bum It sort of knew what it wanted to do Well, you've succeeded You have done it Thank you so much Thank you very much Lovely to see you

I'm here Elizabeth Strout Talking about what lies ahead for her And I don't mind what she writes I don't mind who she writes about I just want her to keep on writing This book is called the things we never say. And it's actually, I know it shouldn't matter be, but don't you think

it the cover is absolutely beautiful? It's just one of those, it's really simple. It's of a man's shirt on the edge of a chair in a sunlit room by a window. I just love it. I think it's one of those idioms that doesn't make sense at all than never judge a book by its cover, because you really do judge books by their covers. It's the first thing in a bookshop that you do judge them on. Yeah, that's absolutely right. It's weird, isn't it? It is weird. Why do we say things that are just wrong? Well, we just keep saying them, don't we? Every pan has a lid.

Well, it doesn't. No, the fine pan doesn't. No. Some do, actually. Right, okay. So, honestly, I've gushed about this book enough. I gushed to Elizabeth, let's face it. But if you have any time on your hands over the next couple of weeks,

and genuinely, I think particularly if you've been in the teaching profession or you know someone who has been or is, I just think this is such a touching and beautiful book. It's out now. It's called The Things We'd Never Say. And we are back on, well, there's a bonus actually tomorrow. And then we're back next week. Look forward to it. Enjoy your weekend when you get to it.

Congratulations. You've staggered somehow to the end of another off-air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do it live, every day, Monday to Thursday, two till four on Times Radio. The Jeopardy is off the scale. And if you listen to this, you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online, on DAB, or on the free Times Radio app.

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