Off Air... with Jane and Fi - We'll have them a vulval pink, darling! (with Lady Glenconner)

Episode Date: November 19, 2024

Fi's off so Substitute-Jane-M is here and she comes bearing gifts for Dora! Jane and Jane chat bangers from Joseph, liberated female weeing and pleather shorts. Plus, Lady Anne Glenconner, Princess Margaret's lady-in-waiting, discusses her book 'Picnic Papers'. Our next book club pick has been announced! 'The Trouble with Goats and Sheep' by Joanna Cannon. If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiPodcast Producer: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

That's my intellectual. You talk about classical music. I just like a banger for Nancy. Well and some sparkly pieces to wear to all those festive get-togethers. Well quite. They even do money too, Jane. They really do have it all. At John Lewis Money, in-house experts and trusted partners work together to offer money products for real life. From the John Lewis Partnership credit card to insurance and travel money, they can help you think outside the bank. To find out more, search John Lewis Partnership Credit Card. That's the spirit. Credit subject to status. 18 plus years, UK residents, TNCs apply. John Lewis PLC is a credit broker.

New Day Limited is the lender. This episode of Off Air with Jane and Fee is sponsored by Norwegian Cruise Line. Have you ever thought of taking a cruise? Well, it's crossed my mind. tell me a bit more about it. Well with Norwegian Cruise Line you can travel to iconic locations across Northern Europe, the Mediterranean and the Greek Isles, unpacking only once and exploring multiple European destinations in one holiday. They offer exclusive go-local shore excursions as well as an immersive programme of on-board experiences.

I can't lie I'm intrigued by up to 21 dining options on a single ship. Well Jane, their fleet has so many unique bars, lounges and restaurants. They also have fantastic entertainment, shows, facilities on board. You wouldn't be short of things to do. Plan ahead to discover your dream Europe 2025 cruise. It's certainly one way to beat the winter blues. Experience more at sea with Norwegian Cruise Life. For more information call 0333 222 6513. Contact your travel agent or visit ncl.com. Welcome to Off Air, it's Tuesday and Lamar Kerens is with us today, Fee's back tomorrow. What have you got there because it's got a Christmassy look about it.

Yes. There's a little festive red box. There is a little festive red box. I know you won't let me look after Dora because apparently I can't guess the age of cats and that means I couldn't possibly be in charge of your precious pet. Looking after Dora is a job for the professional. It's not something that I could give to any kind of amateur cat whisperer. I'm just basically here to bribe you because I've got a cat selection box here.

Oh actually that's brilliant. Yeah it's got salmon and chicken slices, chicken and tuna slices, and tuna and chicken sticks. Yes, please. So, yeah, so just to say, you know, it's just my first step in proving that I might be a reliable Doricara in the future. Actually, that's lovely. And is this the kind of thing that these kind of freebies come into your office?

Yeah, sometimes we get things for humans as well. Yeah. A feed as a treat, it makes very clear here. Always ensure fresh water is available. What can I say? I always do. I mean, I didn't need to know that either. I mean, I would have figured that out for myself. But do you think Dora's going to like that?

I think she is. Are you going to put it under the tree or are you going to give it to her straight away? No, be wrapped and put under the tree. What kind of household do you think I run? going to like that? I think she is. Are you going to put it under the tree or are you going to give it to her straight away? No, be wrapped and put under the tree. What kind of household do you think I run? I don't know, okay. There's slightly sort of Presbyterian streaking me. I certainly don't start giving Christmas presents out in November. Okay.

I saw my old chum Sam Coates on Sky yesterday and behind him in the Sky newsroom was a Christmas tree. Oh, it's preposterous. I mean, come on Sky, it's November. Yeah, I don't know when all this got out of hand. It's ridiculous. Let it's preposterous. I mean come on Sky, it's November. Yeah I don't know when all this got out of hand. It's ridiculous. Let's keep it in December. I mean we were only allowed to put up the tree on Christmas Eve in my house. Oh okay I think that's probably. I know. It does seem quite rigid. I think it might have had something to do with the fact that traditionally we just never organized enough. Okay. In the same way that we only have presents after Christmas

dinner because my grandmother never got around to wrapping them until then. So everything happened quite late in our household. Did she wrap them? Yeah. After lunch. In wrapping paper or? Well, I could lay hands on. Probably pastry sometimes. To be honest, the Christmas perfectionist is a bore.

Oh, gotcha. Let's hear it for people who just roll with it. Yeah. And just let it happen because it makes life a lot easier for those people around them. And essentially, we're supposed to be enjoying ourselves. Yeah. Anyway, that's a but but if you work at Sky, clearly you've got to get the tree up by November the 16th. Can we also yeah, I mean, enjoy yourself by watching rolling news. Particularly at the moment. I don't know about you, but that's how I have a good time Jane. Increasingly I never thought I'd be that person who said I avoid the news, obviously not when I'm working, but at the moment there are you listen and you just think oh what, who, no. Someone asked me about my like bedtime routine recently, you know like the wind down, I was like well I listen to a lot news and current and first podcasts and then realised that might be something to do with why I don't sleep very well. Do you listen to…

I listen to America's just before bed. Yeah, don't. Have you heard Pod Saves America? Yes. I've been listening to that for many years. Yeah, but I think collectively they're having a nervous breakdown, aren't they? They are having a nervous breakdown. Absolutely extraordinary. I'm not saying I don't recommend it because I kind of do. Actually, just on that note, I will say that there's a new BBC offering. Whisper It. Radio 3 Unwind. Have you heard that?

No, is it just ASMR? Well, it's just, I'm very ignorant about... But with opera? No, I'm really quite ignorant about classical music. I like a tune. And what this offers you is very little speech, there's certainly no news and no weather forecasts or traffic information, it's just tunes and a lot of them you will recognise. Occasionally the odd soothing presence makes themselves known but it's actually, it's quite good, I'm enjoying it and I'm not a classical music person but if you're hovering around the house or you just need a respite, give it a try. So I used to find the thing that would get me through the cleaning on a Sunday

and cheer me up was just Elaine Page on Sunday. Show tunes. Yes, show tunes. Yeah, I mean, that's my intellectual. You talk about classical music. I just like a banger from Joseph. I like a show tune. Any dream will do. But in the Times Today, there is a list of the best songs from musicals. And the winner is?

We did discuss this on the desk yesterday. The winner is Over the Rainbow. Somewhere Over the Rainbow. Yeah, mine would be Another Suitcase, Another Hall. I think that's a brilliant song. Absolutely brilliant. Particularly the Madonna version, obviously. It is just a very, very poignant song. I like Tell Me On A Sunday.

Oh yeah. That's a really sweet song as well. I also really love Blood Brothers and Tell Me It's Not True. Oh, that's a great tune. I like I Hate Men from Kiss Me Kate as well. Do you? Yeah, I do. I was kating Kiss Me Kate at school and I really enjoyed seeing that one. I was about to ask if any man in particular had inspired it. As I asked you that.

Oh, that's a segue, Jane. It works on a podcast. Jane is showing me a visual here. Hello to Carol in Norwich who often delights us. Thank you, Carol. Thank you just for your loyalty apart from everything else. She has pinged me an image of Charlie Mullins off of Pimlico Plumbers, although he's moved on to a new organization called Wef now. I think it's called We Fix. He was a guest on the radio

show, Times Radio, Monday to Thursday, 2 till 4, get the Times Radio app, it's free. Charlie Mullins was on talking about the benefits of working pretty much a six day week, which he thinks is good and is something that we should aim for. And I know, Jane. I do at the moment. You do. I was just about, I was giving you the opportunity. I know you work like an absolute dog. Six days at the moment Jane. But obviously if you want to look as good as Charlie Mullins you're gonna have to work even harder. I'm gonna have to work on my roots. He's 72 Jane. Good Lord. He's 72. I mean yes just read out that statement about saying him being 72 and what Carol has said. Well it's Carol Carol's piece. She says, I didn't believe you when you said he was looking good.

And then she's printed out possibly not the most flattering picture. I would say the thing about Charlie Mullins is that first of all, he's agreed to come on the programme and we're always very grateful for anyone. He's got an opinion and he gave it. Now, I'm not going to say that I think anyone should be working seven days a week and I don't want my stopcock being meddled with by someone who's exhausted because I think it's a job for someone who's totally alert. These things are very delicate. But there are look, I've always enjoyed how can I put this? I wouldn't want I mean, it's one of the reasons I haven't retired. Well, the retirement age isn't so good.

Also the fact that you're not old enough. Well, I'm 60, but yeah, I haven't just taken any kind of what you might loosely call early retirement because who doesn't want to have a contrast between home life and something else? Yeah, and I think feeling relevant in some way, whatever it is you're doing. I think once you stop feeling relevant, I think for lots of us that's a terrifying place to be. Oh God, yeah. Don't even go there. But Charlie, let's be honest, I think he would say himself,

he's quite possibly had a little bit of work. And his hair is Rod Stewart-esque, isn't it? Definitely. I don't think the song... Apologies to Rod. It set off my't it? Definitely. I don't think the song... Apologies to Rod. It set off my winter itch quite a lot. Yeah, all right. Okay. So anyway, can I just give a shout out to Ali, who stopped me to say hello at London

Bridge station yesterday. Hello, Ali. It was so nice to meet you. Ali is a regular listener. You met her daughter Saskia on a train in Liverpool recently. I did. Yeah, yeah. She, you're absolutely right. Jane and I spend all of our time on trains just travelling the country, trying, trying

to talk to people who listen, trying to find them. I don't honestly, you have to believe me, I don't bother members of the public till they talk to me. I really don't. But Saskia I think she was in her second or third week at uni in Liverpool and she was off travelling to Crosby Marine Lake, the marina, to undertake a windsurfing lesson. Oh that's right. Her mum said yes, her step mum, sorry. Ali is her step mum. And yes she said she was off to do something sporty on the water. She was certainly wearing a fleece which I thought was a very good idea. Yeah, appropriate. So Ali lives in the south of England and gets the same train as me to London Bridge and she very humbly said she was a musician. She's not just a musician. What is she?

She's a principal viola in the Royal Fiddle Monarch Orchestra. Okay, that's... Yeah, but she just very... You know I'm a musician. So anyway, Ellie, it was lovely to meet you and thank you for saying hello and hello again to Saskia as well. Yeah, brilliant. Well, thank you. And always, by the way, if you do see any of us out and about, we don't have protection and we're very, very happy to chat. We've got very little to do most of the time. As long as it's positive. So we are just there to chat.

Now the guest on the podcast today is Lady Glen Conner. So a little bit of class because Jane and I, while Karen's in Garvey, we're, well, we're, you know, we don't, what would we say our sort of social status. We're how, I'm going to say aspirational, meritocratic, gobby. Look, I considered myself posh when my mum started buying salad in a bag. Exactly. I think that just tells you all you need to know. Elevated you to a whole new level of British society. Lady Glen Conner is a genuine aristocrat, born on this amazing estate in Norfolk. She probably owns the farms where they

grow the salad that goes in a bag. She possibly does. She is a woman who has had both incredible privilege and the most diabolical tragedies. And she is... Remind us of what her job was? Well, she was Princess Margaret's Lady in Waiting, which I think was probably one of the tougher, tougher callings. There'd be a good bit of waiting around there, I imagine. Wherever. Where is she? She only ever speaks of the Lope Princess with tremendous fondness. But she's also a woman who is married to an abusive man.

I mean, actually, he just sounds horrible. A man called Colin Tennant, who was notable for... No relation to David. No, no relation to David. Who was the man who bought Mystique, the exotic island, and where they entertained Princess Margaret. And he was... Well, maybe we'll let her describe Colin Tennant during the course of the interview, but he was certainly a difficult man to be with, I think that's fair to say. And then she had five children and two of her sons have died. She is just a trooper in the truer sense of that term. So not show busy. I think

I've read a quote from her somewhere. She just says, you've got to crack on. And she has. And in her very 80s and 90s she's become incredibly well known and hugely successful in her own right. So that's brilliant. Anyway, good luck to her. We'll hear about her latest home, Picnic Papers, later in this podcast. I don't know anyone who's interviewed her and not fallen in love with her. She is, yeah, I think she's quite a lady, genuinely. Not a day for a picnic today, is it? No, definitely not a papery one. If you're outside the UK, you should know that winter has suddenly struck and it's

not even officially winter, is it? No, it's autumn but... It's disgusting what about me. There was sleet in Peckham this morning. Oh my god. I know. Sleet in Peckham, there's the title of your book. Moving on. Can I talk about Georgina solving her wee in conundrum?

Please do. Yeah, really raising the tone. Georgina says dear Jane and Fee, I'd previously tried to instil a rule that no one in the family, husband, son, young daughter, could pee somewhere where I couldn't pee. So frustrated was I by their easy outdoor wees. But they just laughed at me and continued watering the car wheels or forest trees. But then, says Georgina, I bought a liver pea. Maybe better known by the generic brand She-Whee, the silicone funnel that you can pop in your pants and perfect a stand-up wee while remaining dressed. It's been a game changer for me, she says,

and my now slightly older daughter, who can no longer get away with squatting down so freely, we peed on hard shoulders, forest tracks, tops of mountains and corners of car parks. My plastic penis and its little dry bag pops in my car glove box in my handbag and if necessary in my pocket, says Georgina. It's confirmed how easy it is to be a bloke and I plan on continuing to beat them at their own game. So the product is called a? It's called a Liverpool or a Shewee. Oh yeah, made by Shewee, it's a Liverpool. But I still don't quite understand, do you put it down your trousers? Sounds like it. Pop it on. I'm still okay with squatting. I mean privately.

I went to NEP the other Sunday. You know the Nep where they do the rewilding. Oh yeah. I only know about that from the archers. So Nep is this amazing estate in Sussex where Isabella Tree and her husband, KNEPP. So it's a place where they've bred storks for the first time since 1414. Yeah, storks hadn't bred in the UK since 1414 and now they're loads of stalks. How are they here? They fly here. Oh god! I don't know more definitely than that Jane. But they also have lots of wild deer and wild pigs and all sorts. Anyway, I had an outdoor wee at nap because you know, it's something you can do.

So when you're working full the times you've had outdoor wee's? I mean I wasn't on a story at nap. Oh I see. It was leisure. Oh it was leisure? I was just taking videos of wild pigs and things. But I don't think there's any rules against having an outdoor wee while in the employee of the times.

Look, I mean, if you want to spend your weekends, I mean, we should just say to new listeners, Jane is currently a resident of Brighton. I don't know why she was in Peckham last night, only she knows. And she spends her weekends taking videos of wild pigs. And look, Britain, mercifully, is what passes for a free country these days. We're probably about as good as it gets on planet Earth. So each to their very own. Bring us back into line, Garvey, come on. Natalie says, I thought I'd pop a quick email in and this, can I just say,

this is a busy time of year for us all, Natalie. So I'm very, very grateful to anyone who has a moment in their crowded schedule to email this load of old hogwash. We are very grateful. Natalie says, I heard the conversation about the latest strain of norovirus and the ensuing discussion about liquid soap. I had read a similar article to the one Jane read. I'm not going to mention the name of the paper, but I think we probably both read the same Sunday newspaper.

But realised she meant probably liquid sanitiser, not liquid soap. Sanitiser doesn't have the same ability to counteract germs like good old hand washing. Anyway, I thought Jane might like to note she wasn't entirely wrong. It actually won't stop me sanitising my hands but it will make me wash them even more. I love the show and I am the proud owner, she says, of a tote bag. Natalie is also a librarian. So I think I've got the point there. Yeah, good old hand washing is the right way to approach it. Don't just depend on your sanitizer. Give your hands a proper wash. No one wants this hectic party season,

not that I've been invited yet to a single Christmas party, to be in any way impacted by a norovirus bug. Try to avoid. Do we have any totes left looking at Eve? Not a single one. There's just one. There is one left. Are you gonna get a new stock in for 2025? Well, there's going to be a meeting about merch. A merch meeting. Well, we're a pretty sophisticated outfit these days, Jane. I just pop in and I just blow in and blow out.

You're like a sort of... Parapetetic music teacher. You are a little bit like that. But I'm going to say you're slightly more fashionably dressed. And I't want to cause offence because today you're wearing, what is that? Pleather shorts. Exactly. And I don't think one of those music teachers would dare to pleather. I don't think they'd have been allowed at my school. No, they wouldn't have been allowed at mine.

If the trombone teacher would come in in a pair of pleather shorts. I'm just trying to remember. St Mary's RC Catholic High School Chesterfield. Miss Hogg who spent a fruitless 12 months trying to teach me the violin. The idea of Miss Hogg in pleather. Well you see the thing is they make me, I'm a bit bossier when I wear my pleather shorts. So maybe that's what Miss Hogg was missing. With some, it was a bit of black pleather from Zara.

Maybe should have been a bit more demanding. Miss Hog was pretty formidable, but she had a side to side. She had a nickname for everybody in the class and mine was Fairy. Aww. She meant it in a nice way. It was the 1970s everybody, what can I tell you? I would just like to thank Helen for the pictures of carrots, which I understand you've had a lot of because I've been enjoying them enormously on the Instagram. And oddly, there's also an obsession with carrots going on on the 11th floor on my desk. People are eating them as snacks.

So I don't know what's going on with carrots, but there's a thing. And I will just say on a festive note, so Alex James of Blur fame, and Cheese now, in his autobiography the only thing I really took away from it, and it was a great read, but the only thing I remembered was that he used to get bad breath from drinking so much champagne, such is the life of a 90s pop star. He used to get bad breath from champagne. Crunch a carrot after you've been drinking champagne for fresh breath. It neutralises the champagne apparently. So yeah, for your festive season pop a couple of carrots in your handbag and when you're out, you know, get out a little crunchy baton and fresh breath.

Yeah. Helen also says waterproof bamboo mattress covers are cooling and prevent the stain edge. Bamboo? Bamboo is amazing. I've got a coat made of bamboo. It's furry. Right. And it's hotter than the surface of the sun. Yeah, can I ask, bamboo seems to have come out of nowhere and is now being used in everything, including socks. Why did we not always use it? Why are we... I think we were saying it for the pandas.

We were, okay, right. And now there aren't any so fine she's depressed make socks out of it very strange isn't it now we had an interesting email the other day from our friend Mike in Altrincham and this is because he had emailed about the Johnny Depp ad being shown during the Queen's documentary about domestic violence I mean it was just extraordinary. I saw it too on ITVX. Unbelievable choice. Well, he's had a good bit of news.

He says, I'm pleased to report that ITV have reviewed my complaint and agreed not to show the ad in future streaming of this program. Here's what they said below. Many ad categories were restricted from this program, sourced from pre-clearance data from Clearcast, the body that pre- clears ads on behalf of all UK commercial broadcasters. This data will not have identified an ad for Eau Sauvage featuring DEP as an issue in the context of the program

content. ITV has now however prohibited the ad from running in any future iterations of the program. It's interesting isn't it that the data will not have identified, no because the data is just an algorithm or a computer that doesn't think or understand so far, I mean as far as I'm aware, and they thought yeah that'd be okay, it's an ad for aftershave, what's the problem? But it is important to note by the way ITV on, that the case brought against debt by Amber Heard made allegations to incidents within their private lives and not concerning or relating to any of their screen work. Thanks for that distinction. Yeah, the case was heard through the US courts and the mountains without convictions.

Yes, we know that man called, well, we're calling Mr. L from ITV customer and reviewer services. I don't care though, if I made allegations to incidents within their private life. Still not entirely satisfied, but thank you very much Mike for drawing our attention to that and well done to you actually for bothering to make a complaint because you can huff and puff and not do anything about it but he actually did something. I mean that and that is a clanger. It's an absolute clanger. It's ridiculous.

Yeah. I mean imagine what it must be like to be on any kind of broadcasting organisation when you know the subject matter in the adverts contradicts what's going on in the in the programme itself. I can't imagine. I wouldn't know Jane. No absolutely not. Never happened. Don't get me to stray into areas that are likely to. Merch meeting, point of order. Cathy says, thank you so much for an enjoyable podcast,

which makes Monday to Thursday great. MMTTG on a bucket hat for your next merch, maybe. Making Monday to Thursday great. Well it beats MAGA. Yeah. We'd have to not have them red though just in case anybody was unsure. No I think we'll have them a Volvo pink. Darling. Just another... Volvo pink will be there. What is that Pantone colour of the year? Farrow and Ball, what would they call that pink? Something hilarious. Fanny Adams. Oh no, actually the story of Fanny Adams was really sad, wasn't it?

So we don't want to go there. Oh, what a sad colour. Well, yeah, it was a sad story. Was it the... she was a housemaid who was murdered? Oh, are you right? Yeah, it wasn't a happy thing at all. Historians listening will be able to send us their view of that. Mattresses, I mean, we're back to mattresses, but it was important because Fee had seen one of her neighbors in a very fashionable

part of East London having a blue mattress delivered. And I think she made the really good point, why have we for so long put up with white or cream mattresses when we know accidents are going to happen? And she said, this is from Katrina who says, I can't be the only one who responded to the question blue mattresses why now with an immediate because of the patriarchy. Okay, Katrina. It is the answer to every question. I mean, the truth is that's true. It is true. The modern mattress was designed by men and is a hugely lucrative industry because you probably aren't going to buy a secondhand one and as an occasional and important purchase

customers are more likely to push the boat out a bit and up until fairly recently many men, many men had never seen their mattress Why would they? I suppose that's true. And why weren't there as many women who well knew the scourge of a mattress stain in positions powerful enough to influence the big mattress juggernaut? This is actually fascinating. I'm thinking about that. Is it the case that most men will never have seen their own mattress? What are we saying that men never change the bottom sheet? Well, Catrida's making the assumption or accusation that men don't change the sheets.

I mean, I will say probably not as often as women. No. Well, I got into trouble many years ago on Woman's Hour by just owning the fact that I didn't always change the guest bedroom sheets between visitors. If they were kind of, you know, young, clean female relatives, I didn't really see the need. If my, you know, if my cousin or my sister were going to be sleeping in the same sheets a week apart and people were horrified. People were in that room. Yeah, they were.

Yeah. I've never really got over that. Well, let's not revisit the argument the three way, how often we change our own sheets, because I do remember that the and you had some answers that were not pleasing to the listenership. Can we move on please? Yeah, let's move on. Farmers, farmers busy today. Farmers are very busy today in Westminster.

And Tia has written in saying dear Jen and Fee, thank you for raising the issue of farming inheritance tax policy changes on today's episode with such open minds. You asked for farming listeners to get in touch with their perspective and here's a note from our family farm in Cornwall. This is quite a long email from Tia so I'm not going to read all of it. But Tia says we live on a 300 acre farm which has been nurtured by my husband's family since 1860. Our children, 12 year old daughter and 10 year old boy girl boy twins are fifth generation. My husband farmed with his farmer and grandfather, both were born and died in the farmhouse that we live in which houses our family, my 92 year old mother-in-law, plus until March of this year my sister-in-law who tragically passed away of ovarian cancer less than a year after diagnosis. The government reference to a £3 million threshold in so many situations

just isn't relevant, says Tia. It presupposes that farmers are married and can benefit from two partners allowances and that those allowances are planned and structured in a way that many farmers simply don't have the time and funds to pay for expert legal fees in order to set in place. We know countless farmers who are widowed, divorced and separated. Surely we're living in the 21st century and know that families are more fluid than touting a line that most farmers can expect to benefit from a £3 million allowance. My farming friend in Ney comes to mind who lost her first husband to cancer and her second husband in a catastrophic accident falling from a roof on their farm, leaving her with two children and her three step-sons. Tia says, in essence we feel strongly that the government has set the threshold wrong.

It needs to be significantly higher if they want to continue with inheritance tax on agricultural land and if their intention is to tax wealthy landowners who are cash rich and can take the weight of it and not to completely disrupt family farms and with this their intricate knowledge of the land and food systems. With the threshold set as it is most farmers around us who have inherited land that they've carefully nurtured through generations and require large capital items such as tractors in order to produce food work insanely hard and for a pittance. And even with a 10 year period in which to pay inheritance tax, for most it would be completely unaffordable. Just in our small corner of Cornwall there

are huge numbers of people and cumulative thousands of acres of land affected. It's not a small issue only affecting a minority of people and land. And we're lucky to have found ways to diversify the business based on the farm, yet we still find ourselves in an extremely difficult position. We worry about many of the small family farms around us and throughout the country where this is not the case." Thank you for that Tia. I think it's great to have a bit more insight and perspective on that. And it obviously is a huge issue for many, many farmers as evidenced by the fact that there's this protest going on. For those of you not in the UK, there's protests today in Westminster by thousands of farmers who are protesting at the government's new inheritance tax thresholds.

So Tia is basically saying if the threshold were higher she wouldn't be against it. Yeah. And what I hadn't appreciated, and thank you Tia for taking the time, but is that there is this thing called land banking, just wealthy people who knew of the tax benefits who bought large amounts of land. Now they're not all farmers. Some of them haven't done a day's farming in their life. And I absolutely get that this is a seven day a week commitment talking of properly working. This is a whole different perspective. It's not a job, it's a complete life. It's not, it's not a job.

And I'm a suburbanite, I wouldn't call myself a townie, I'm definitely a suburbanite, and I need to know more about this. So I really do welcome all perspectives. And there is a surprising amount of vitriol from some people who are anti-farming, just kind of instinctively think farmers are all really wealthy. And yeah,

there are some wealthy landowners. But also what I hadn't appreciated was that tenant farmers could well be impacted as well, because obviously, the people who own the land that they farm may well end up punishing them in some way, because they need to get their money back. It's a hugely, hugely complicated subject this and I appreciate that if you are farming, you're knackered at the end of the day and you're not going to be emailing a podcast but that's why I'm so grateful to Tia who has done it. It's interesting because having grown up in a semi-rural area but sort of formerly industrial

area, I've never met a wealthy farmer. All the farmers I knew worked incredibly hard. Someone inherited the farms from the family but by no stretch of the imagination did I think of them as wealthy and all of them were absolute grafters, you know, in very difficult circumstances. So it's just not a viewpoint I share because I've just never seen it. No, no. Well, okay, let's put the plea out for more responses. And there is this big protest in the centre of London today on what is a truly wretched November Tuesday. So, thoughts and prayers. Actually, on the Tube today coming into work, there were two separate primary school trips, I think, to that museum

in central London where you can look at the London Wall, the very... Oh yeah. Do you remember that one? Museum of London. Museum of London, yeah, it must have been because that's where they got off, I think. But I mean, as soon as they got on, the kids were overexcited to a degree that was unacceptable because I think they had seen a couple of snow flurries and it was just the smell of damp bobble hat that was just all over them. The kids were running around and thumping each other and the teachers

were doing a really good job but the kids could only have been about six, maximum. 36 year olds on the tube. Honestly, teachers, never mind farmers, I appreciate they work out, those primary school teachers when they get home tonight. I am. They all deserve a lie down. That bubble hat's off to you all. Quite. We all want to enjoy food that tastes great and is sourced responsibly.

But it's not always easy to know where your favourite foods come from. McDonald's works with more than 23,000 British and Irish farmers to source quality ingredients. Mike Allwood is a dairy farmer from Cheshire who supplies organic milk to McDonald's in the UK for its teas, coffees and porridge through Arla. We're involved in a network which has been set up by Arla to look at the possibilities for farming regeneratively. to look at the possibilities for farming regeneratively. One of the things we're doing here is moving our cattle and giving them a fresh piece of grass every day to help regenerate the soil. We're very lucky that we've had a long-term relationship with McDonald's

and I think often people don't realise how seriously McDonald's takes their relationships with farmers. Change a little, change a lot. Find out more about McDonald's Plan for Change on the McDonald's website. Hello, I'm Holly Mead and with me is Lucy Andrews and we are both from the Money Team at The Times and Sunday Times. And our new podcast is called Feel Better About Money. It's a safe place to talk positively about money and personal finance. Each week we will tackle a specific financial topic from managing debt, saving for a pension, buying a house or deciding whether to insure your cat or dog or goldfish. Feel Better About Money is sponsored by Lloyds Ready-made investments.

Now, Lady Glenconner has known immense privilege and unimaginable personal tragedy in her life. The daughter of an Earl, she was a maid of honour at the late Queen's coronation and a devoted lady-in-waiting to Princess Margaret for over 30 years. Two of her three sons died and the third was left disabled after a motorbike accident. Her late husband, a man called Colin Tennant who bought Mystique and turned it into a celebrity

party island, was physically abusive and when he died he left his money to a male servant who'd originally been hired to look after his elephant. But Lady Glenconner cracked on and how. At 92 she's a successful writer and tells a quite brilliant anecdote. Her latest book is called Picnic Papers and Other Feasts with Friends and it's supporting the work of the Safe Lives Domestic Abuse Charity. Now she told me about that but we started by her reliving her trip to Times Towers today which has been somewhat affected by the

farmers protest. I thought it had broken down and luckily it hadn't and it's followed us for a bit hooting and I realized that of course they are all the tractors who come to London to complain quite rightly. I come of a great farming family my ancestor was cook of Norfolk who completely changed the sheep, used to look like goats and then he bred them and he used to have these great sheep sharings that people from all over Europe came. So coming from a great farming family I have great sympathy with the farmers. Do you think the protest will change the government's mind at all? Probably not, I'm afraid.

Those sort of things sort of don't. But in the end, it might help them. I mean, I think if they could put this off, I think it was, what was so unfortunate was, none of us knew about it. And suddenly, you know, they said that farmers would have to, when they, I mean, we all, when we die, we are taxed, but farmers quite rightly

weren't and I don't think they expected that. Yes, I mean some people will agree with you, not everybody, but why do you believe that farmers are a special case? Because farming is very hard work and they don't make a great deal of money and land is very important and the same people farming they know their land they know their animals and as we rely on food you know I think they should be a special case. It is really hard to believe that you are 92 forgive me that I've mentioned that so early in the conversation but but you are and

you are enjoying some remarkable personal success aren't you? Well amazing I just can't believe it. I mean I was 97 and my dear husband had just died and after an absolute, well I can't swear on television. You were 87 I think weren't you? I was 87. I'm not going to say exactly what I really feel because I don't think it would be proper on your programme. But he left me nothing. And the children, we weren't mentioned at all. And I happened to be, actually it was a picnic. I was sitting next to somebody who was a publisher and I was rabbiting away with my stories like I'm probably going to do

with you and he said, have you ever thought of writing a book? And I said, well no, I'm 87, I mean I can't, you know, write. So he said, well it's your voice we want. And so that's what happened and I just sat and dictated it all. I've got very good recall and as I started on my life I realized in fact I had had a very interesting life. Well absolutely remarkable life. We should say that your late husband was a man called Colin Tennant. Absolutely right. Now he left his money to his servant. Yes, it was called Kent. Kent originally

being engaged to look after Colin's elephant. Colin bought an elephant, the only elephant in the Caribbean. And when Bupa, he's got Bupa, arrived, there were a great many young men all wanting to look after. And he said, I can have that boy, because that boy's got big ears and Bupa's got big ears and maybe Bupa will be very happy with him. And in fact Bupa was, and Kent looked after the elephant and then after Buford sadly died he then looked after Colin.

Yes, but you weren't expecting him to be the beneficiary of your husband's will. No, absolutely not. I mean I've been looking after Colin. I mean I've been married to Colin 54 years. He had cancer at the end and I was looking after him. And so it was a terrible shock. Well, I would imagine it was more than that. I think you are the mistress of understatement in lots of ways. I think terrible shock probably just about does it. You are also someone who has known enormous privilege, which you acknowledge in your writing,

but also the most extraordinary body blows, the losses of two of your three sons. How have you kept going? Yes, I mean that was awful, because not only was I losing Charles and Henry, I knew they were going to die, But Christopher then had this appalling accident. Your other son. Other son. He was in a coma for five months. So I was looking after him in hospital. And I actually, in a way maybe, I've absolutely determined not to lose him. I thought I possibly

can. And I did this coma treatment and I write about it in my book. And there is Christopher. I mean, he's very badly disabled still, but he's been married twice, got two very clever daughters, one's got a first with honours at King's. And wonderful thing about Christopher, he never complains, he's always positive. He always said, oh, Mom, it's much worse for you having me. I wouldn't change my life. He actually said he wouldn't change his life at all. Well perhaps he has something of you in him, that ability to crack on, as you say. No, exactly.

Well, actually, just the other day, what really irritates me is people who complain. And that's why I said, you know, I was brought up, you know, in the war. I didn't see my parents for three years. My father was fighting over in the Scots Guards in Egypt. My mother was out there. I had this very unkind governess. And I went to schools for two terms, boarding school, in the cellars because of the doodle bugs.

I mean, we had a tough time and now I just think what people complain about is fairly ridiculous in my eyes. In some ways that that wonderful spirit is very much at the heart of picnic papers because the British picnic is well it's a triumph of hope over experience isn't it really? You're absolutely right and And the picnics, we've always had picnics. I mean, right from, I suppose, the very first picnics, because living in Norfolk by the sea, I mean, we had wonderful picnics every day in the summer. This old sort of bus arrived and the nannies and the picnic baskets and the children all went down.

The grown-ups went to their hut, which is in the trees, and we had a hut right on the sea. And of course, there, you know, Princess Margaret and Princess Elizabeth, she called in those days, used to come. We used to have picnics together. Princess Margaret and I were always digging holes, I remember, hoping people were going to fall into them.

You were her lady-in-waiting for how many years? I was a lady-in-waiting for 34 years. Yes, and during that time you only ever called her ma'am, is that right? Only ever called her ma'am, I wouldn't dream, I mean we all did, I mean I always called her ma'am. And that was something she insisted on or something you felt was right? It's what I felt was right, I mean she never said anything but my mother you see was a lady-in-waiting to the Queen at the coronation when I carried the Queen's train. My mother was walking just behind because she'd been made a maid of honour, I'm sorry, a lady-in-waiting

to the Queen. And I learnt a lot from my mother. I mean when Princess Margaret asked me to be a lady-in-waiting, my mother was able to fill me in exactly what to do, what not to do. You do say in picnic papers that Princess Margaret was capable of tremendous kindness. She was capable of other forms of behaviour as well, we should say, but aren't we all? But when you were going through a really tough time, she was somebody who was loyal. She was wonderful. I mean, she used to ring me up when Christopher, as I spent a lot of time, most of my time in the hospital with Christopher, and in the evening she'd ring up and she said, and I'm sending a car, you've got to eat, I know you haven't been eating

properly and you're going to come and have dinner with me and Tony. And that's what happened. And then when Tony left, I went and lived with her. I stayed with her for a whole year, Kensington Palace. I bought a little flat and I thought, well, you know, it's not quite ready. And I said, would it be okay if I came for a week or two? And I said, oh, yeah, which is wonderful because I rarely got to know her. And she was such a kind, thoughtful person. Partly I wrote my book, Lady Waiting, to address other people who had written really horrible books about her and I wanted to reduce the balance. And I have actually, I think up to

a point, lots of people write to me saying, we never thought much of Princess Margaret since reading your book. We realised she was quite a different character. And I think you do write that you were both at the mercy of your incredibly difficult husband. Well yes, because I always remember when she, I mean Tony was so unfair. That's her husband. Yes, Tony was Tony Armstrong Jones and he got the ear of the press.

He was very clever. And actually, she didn't want a divorce, but his mistress was having a baby and he wanted to marry her. And so, in the end, Princess Margaret gave him a divorce. But after my year with her, when I eventually moved into my flat, I remember her saying, oh, we had such a marvelous time, so lovely not to have our awful husbands with us. And I had to say, well, ma'am, it was rather special. You were very, well, I mean, I think you probably see yourself

as the living embodiment of the stiff upper lip. You don't complain, and your husband was tyrannical at times, and physically abusive. Do you now see that for what it was? How do you feel about that period of your life? Well, doing that it's interesting, so I wrote about it. In fact, Picnic Papers, which is so lovely, is being sold in aid of Safe Lives, which is a... the Queen recommended the charity to me. It does wonderful work with people who are domestically abused. And strangely enough, many, many years ago, which most people probably wouldn't remember,

but there was a wonderful lady called Erin Pissy. And she, I worked with her, and she was the first one to raise money and we bought flats for people. And we said, if you can escape any time and get to a telephone box, we will come and fetch you. And it was quite often during the night, you know, they managed to get away from their drunken husbands. And you would arrive at this post and there was the wife in a nightie and the children in the nightie clutching their teddy bears.

And we'd scoop them up, take them away and, you know, hopefully give them another life. I didn't know that you were involved with Erin Pizzi. Was that because of your own experience? Well, I didn't sort of think of it like that. But I think Erin, that I met her with Princess Margaret, I think she saw something in me that, and she said, would you come and help me, I just feel you're the sort of right type of person, and it proved correct actually. So having done that, because the thing about writing about domestic abuse, in my first

book I didn't, I didn't want to upset the children. I didn't know how to write about it. But actually it was partly due to the Queen who encouraged me, knowing a bit about my background, and she said, you'll be so helpful because if you write, other people will feel – I wrote about it – that it is so shaming and you think it's your fault, you see, a lot of the time. And because I've written like this, one of the great things actually becoming an author, are the letters I get. I get so many letters and I've had some very sad ones. I do write back to everybody, it's quite difficult in a way. I say I don't know your circumstances but try and help them.

And I feel very humbled by that. It is astonishing isn't it that I saw the Queen's documentary on television last week. It is wonderful. Well it's really very moving but it's so powerful and it's so extraordinary that we live in a time when the Queen can make a documentary about this most, well, hidden of causes? Well, I'm completely right, because I mean, you know, when I was young, I mean, and during the queen's reign, the late queen's reign, no, I mean, out of the question, completely. But our queen has a sort of magic. I thought she was wonderful. I thought she came over so

well, you know. And, you know, I'm so glad. Picnic papers, you see, came out in 1983. And it was for two other charities. And my friend said, you know, would you ask Princess Margaret to write a picnic? And I said, well, no, it's embarrassing. She's never done anything like that before. But anyway, she came and stayed with me and after I think at least two whiskies in the evening, I said, ma'am, I've got something to ask you. Oh, what is it, Erin?

So I said, well, and I told her about picnic papers and I said, it's going to be sold in aid of the Glyndebourne Trust. You know perfectly well, I hate opera. I said, ma'am, I do understand that, but you love ballet, she's great on ballet. And I said, it's also being sold, there's another charity that I've paid for, called the SOS. And anyway, you know, she said, all right, I'll do it. And of course she's written this charming picnic. It's about Hampton Court. Yes, it's about Hampton Court. And I love the thing. She said,

I always like a picnic, preferably indoors because of the weather and bring your butler to see the day thing goes on. I didn't know whether she's joking with people. It's very funny that chapter. And I wasn't sure whether she was joking either. Well I think there was a slight, I mean she realized after she'd written it, I think that it was. And what I'm so pleased about because when I thought of bringing it out again in a different form, I thought I must get some other people to write nowadays and I've got of course Graham Norton, wonderful picnic because he's brought her in Ireland, never ever had a picnic, thought people were mad

sitting there in the rain you know with their lessees leaves blowing away and that sort of thing. I mean you've already said how challenging your marriage was although but we need to make clear it wasn't all bad was it? I mean there were some wonderful experiences and you do say that Colin could certainly organise a picnic and I love the story of his eccentric uncle Stephen. Oh Stephen, yes I know. Now just tell everybody what he didn't like about Heather. Well uncle Stephen only came up for about two days to Scotland, their family home in Scotland because he lived at Wiltsford and And when he arrived in those days, we had

a butler. The butler said, and this Uncle Stephen was 70 and he was still called Master Stephen and the butler came and said, Master Stephen's here, but he wants you to go and say hello, he's still in the car. And my father-in-law had sent his Rolls Royce down. Well, we went, there was Uncle Stephen sitting in the car with flowers and a parrot. Anyway, we said, well, there's a picnic tomorrow. So he said to my husband, well, there is a problem, Uncle Stephen said. The thing is, I do find the colour of Heather too vulgar for words. So Colin said, I think he took that in, he went off Colin and bought

hundreds of blue paper flowers and before he went up for the picnic he put all these flowers all over the hill. Uncle Stephen arrived, took a look, looked at Colin and said, much better dear boy. And that was it. You see standards are everything, just a little bit of thought and planning. Exactly, well that's what Colin did. Colin was a master picnic, he was a master party giver, you know. I just want to end by getting your definitive answer to the question that has really shocked me today. The British people have been asked to choose between a cup of tea and a gin and

tonic. Now, I don't want to shock you, but the majority of people have said they'd go for the gin and tonic. Now, I don't want to shock you, but the majority of people have said they'd go for the gin and tonic. Well, I'm with them a hundred percent. Except I would actually like a vodka tonic because that's my tipple. But what about tea? Well, I do. I don't like tea at breakfast, but I don't. I drink tea with no milk. I just have one cup a day actually. Oh great. Oh that's extraordinary. Right, we're going to have to call the interview to a halt.

The Indefatigable, Lady Glen Connor, whose book is out now. It is a reworking of her 1980s publication, Picnic Papers. Now Fee will be back tomorrow and we love reading your emails. Thank you all very much indeed for getting in touch. Continue to do so at jaynandfee at times.radio. Congratulations, you've staggered somehow to the end of another Off Air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do do it live, every day, Monday to Thursday, 2-4 on Times Radio. The jeopardy is off the scale, and if you listen to this you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online on DAB or on the free Times Radio app. Off Air is produced by Eve Salisbury and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler. This episode of Off Air is brought to you by the new film Conclave, directed by Oscar-winning

director Edward Berger and in cinemas on November 29th. I've been looking forward to this one for a while. It is based on the best-selling book by Robert Harris, which I absolutely loved, and it tells the story of one of the world's most secretive and ancient events, selecting a new pope. It follows Cardinal Lawrence, played by Ray Fiennes, who is tasked with running this covert process, and he finds himself at the centre of a conspiracy and discovers a secret that could shake the very foundation of the church. And this is one you are going to want to see in the cinema. You're going to be on the edge of your seat with all its twists and turns and an ending you never see coming.

You really won't. Can I just mention as well the incredible cast as well as Ray Fiennes. You've got Stanley Tucci, John Lithgow, Isabella Rossellini. It's also got brilliant reviews, critics hailing it as a masterpiece. So it's already got the Oscar and the BAFTA buzz. Do not miss Conclave, only in cinemas from November the 29th. We all want to enjoy food that tastes great and is sourced responsibly. But it's not always easy to know where your favourite foods come from. McDonald's works with more than 23,000 British and Irish farmers to source quality ingredients. Mike Allwood is a dairy farmer from Cheshire who supplies organic milk to McDonald's in the UK for its teas, coffees and porridge through Arla.

We're involved in a network which has been set up by Arla to look at the possibilities for farming regeneratively. One of the things we're doing here is moving our cattle and giving them a fresh piece of grass every day to help regenerate the soil. We're very lucky that we've had a long-term relationship with McDonald's and I think often people don't realise how seriously McDonald's take their relationships with farmers. Change a little, change a lot. Find out more about McDonald's Plan for Change on the McDonald's website.