Off Air... with Jane and Fi - We're a little bit raggedy around the edges

Episode Date: March 30, 2023

Can the production team fool Jane and Fi with an AI generated email? They're joined by Nigerian writer Ayobami Adebayo about her second novel 'A Spell of Good Things'. And, Deputy Food Editor at The Times, Hannah Evans, tells Jane and Fi about Michelin starred kids menus. If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] Assistant Producer: Kate Lee Times Radio Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome, welcome. It's Thursday's podcast. We only had a couple of upsets on the program today. Our apologies to anybody who loves the doors and knows the very alive designer bruce who uh we managed to say had passed away and actually it's not funny at all um but he is alive and we hope very well and he had designed the outfit that the queen consort wore to a dinner in germany last, which was why he was in the papers. But it just shows you, Jane, doesn't it, that if somebody isn't in your echo chamber of people these days, I do tend to assume that they can't possibly be alive anymore.

Because you're so inundated with images of people all the time. I must remember, never to move, ever, ever, never move out of your orbit. No, but do you find that? I suppose it's a good point. If we don't see them, if they're not part of our... Yeah, I guess so. I mean, I don't think of them as literally dead, although, to be fair, it was me that made the mistake

about the person we're talking about. So they're not they haven't passed do we say i know i say died i say died yeah although it is extraordinary the people do still cling to euphemisms don't they i think it'd be far better just to say died because it's a fate that awaits us all yep i and i know that we've uh we've done this to death, pause for effect. But the past thing, just for me, has those religious connotations that I don't really believe in. So that's why I find it really weird. Nobody's, in my world, past the other side.

They have died when they've left this world. So there we go. Although I did think it was a lovely touch by the journalist Polly Hudson in the mirror today. She's tried to see the bright side of the very genuinely very sad death of Paul O'Grady. I think a lot of people are upset about it. But Polly wrote that it would be lovely to think of him reunited in heaven with his drinking pals, Cilla Black, Barbara Windsor and Dale Winton.

It would be a party. That would be a party, wouldn't it? Yeah. And she anticipated that they'd be drinking the finest champagne in heaven. I want to believe there's really good vintage champagne free flowing 24-7 when

I get up to the pearly gates and my first question will be where is the champagne bar? Because presumably there are no hangovers in heaven are there? There can't be. Why wouldn't there be? Why? No, there can't be. Because all your troubles are over.

Because you've had all your hangovers on earth. All my hangovers have taken place right here on this planet. Okay. I will not have them. You know the flaw in your plan? What is it? You're an atheist. Oh, that's just nonsense.

Okay. When I told you that. I think you said it on the podcast a couple of weeks ago. Did I? Yes. Right, stay with us for more facts and authenticity from Garvey and Glover. This one lets you off the hook, love. Lots of love from Susan.

Hi, Jane and Fee. I was only half listening to yesterday's podcast. Sorry, I was working. Do better, please. No, that's the difference between us. I was going to say, don't worry about it. The two of us, we're the only over 50s in Britain who was working. Do better, please. Give up work. That's the difference between us. I was going to say, don't worry about it. The two of us, we're the only over 50s in Britain who are working. If you believe some of the headlines, everyone's playing golf.

I'm going to start saying that, actually. You know, when you have to give your profession, I'm just going to say economically active. Active. But the woman who told you off for using bad grammar was utterly wrong. She apparently criticised... Actually, you've split a preposition, an infinitive thingy there, haven't you? She apparently criticised your use of prepositions

because you'd said Jane and I instead of Jane and me. If she's going to be that picky, me is not a preposition, it's a pronoun. In this case, it's an object pronoun. So that woman can go and take a flying jump, keep up the good work, I love your podcast, how dare she? Well, Susan, you're very welcome here. No, but everyone's welcome to have a pop. Where would we be without people criticising us?

I mean, we don't mind at all. No, I really don't mind. We're big enough to take it. Ironically, because we're both minute. Have you got a funny one there? It's not particularly funny, but it is quite important. We're still talking about childbirth because i don't think we've ever had such a consistent response to an interview as

the one with paul morgan bentley earlier in the week um this is from katrina who says for our first child the midwives were efficient if brusque no real issues but it did feel a bit impersonal but the following year i was back for number two but in the meantime I'd been diagnosed with a serious and debilitating illness. I arrived for my first antenatal check just as the midwife was opening my file so got her unfiltered reaction as she looked up, said you poor thing and then burst into tears. To be honest this was more disconcerting than the brisk efficiency but subsequent appointments also had a personal feel, perhaps because the midwives were also outside their usual comfort zone. Well, I'm so sorry to hear about your diagnosis and I hope you're all right at the moment. The midwife I saw in the final weeks offered under the radar home visits, says Katrina, if I wasn't able to lumber down to the clinic.

our home visits says Katrina if I wasn't able to lumber down to the clinic squeezed in a reflexology session to try and get things moving and when I missed my last checkup texted to see if all was okay I apologized profusely that cancelling had slipped my mind as I'd been in labor and her immediate reply was that she had tears running down her face as she was so overjoyed to hear that all had gone well oh that's okay that's a wonderful example of, well, beyond decent care, just real compassion and understanding. So that's brilliant. Yes. I woke up at 4.30 in the morning, which is my anxiety blob, as you well know,

thinking that yesterday when we were talking about midwives and stuff, I really, really don't want to upset the midwifery profession because we were just talking about our own experiences and I imagine that you go into midwifery because you're a joyful optimistic person actually and somebody who wants to care for others especially at the start of life so I suppose I just feel bad if the job has ground you down to the point at which, you know, that's something that is beyond your ability. But I didn't want to offend midwives at all. I mean, God knows for my subsequent children, Jane, I'll be needing them.

Oh, very much so. Very much so. Never rule it out. It could happen at any time. Has it happened? No. No, it hasn't. Keep up the good work, says Liz in London, who's been meaning to email us about a couple of topics for some time.

And she has now combined three subjects in one email. Strap in, she says. I really enjoyed your interview with Paul Morgan Bentley. I usually give your interviews about parenting a wide berth because I'm childless, not by choice but by circumstance. Consequently, discussions about babies can be at best not hugely relevant and at worst a painful reminder of what I will never know. Secondly, if I could pitch a TV show, it would be a dark comedy

about the divide that can split friendship groups when some people become parents and some don't. There is quite rightly a lot of time given in the media to the full gamut of being a parent, amazing, good or just mundane, but pretty much no space for the one in five women who won't have kids by the end of their childbearing years. And it's likely that for 80% of us, that wasn't our choice. Sometimes it feels like we are invisible, and yet we make up a huge chunk of the population. Our grief about not becoming mothers is compounded by this invisibility.

Thirdly, orchestra stereotypes. I once sang in an amateur choir that performed at the Albert Hall. We had a professional orchestra, and the brass section were messing about like naughty boys at the back of a classroom. I used to play the violin and was always a bit jealous of the brass section. It seemed like a lot more fun. So thank you for all of those things, Liz. And I'm glad that it wasn't just me

saying the brass section was always a bit funny. But also that point about childlessness is just such a good one to raise. And Liz, I really hope you can listen on Monday because our guest is... Elizabeth Day. And her book is called... Friendaholic.

And some of the stuff in it is about exactly that, the divide between friends of hers who've had children and what that's done to their friendships because Elizabeth has been really open about her journey trying to conceive. So I really hope that you'll be able to listen to the show on Monday live. She'll be in at about 3.30, but you'll also be able to hear that interview go out in the podcast too. Yeah, very good point made, or good points made there. A quick one from Annette who says, if you encourage hedgehogs into your garden, they'll eat the slugs for you.

Hedgehogs are in decline. We need to encourage them and provide food and shelter. That's the kind of email we like. Pithy, informative and absolutely gets me going. Yes, I welcome all hedgehogs, if any are listening. But then, of course, there comes the problem with the easy grass. Oh dear. Yes, I've outed myself again for having artificial grass.

But you've got it as well, haven't you? Yes, I did once see a hedgehog in our garden. Oh, did you? Yep. Was it trying to eat the easy the easy grass no it was just rummaging around uh in the kind of um you know broken bits of tree that had fallen down which i've handily left just for the hedgehogs that's what i tell myself let's talk about a scottish tv show that should be remade oh this uh dear jodenfee my all-time favourite novel is Lorna Doon. Rarely on TV, the last series was in 2000, and when I went to check which channel

it streamed on, realised it was before Netflix. Gosh, was there a time? And the like, and nearly 25 years ago. I can't remember ever, and I do remember reading Lorna Doon. What's the story of Lorna Doon? Oh, my goodness.

Good question. Is she a pioneering young woman who has an adventure? Or is it more depressing? No, it's sad, bleak, yearning, I'm thinking. Okay, sad, bleak, yearning. Very much like your life. No, well, mine do. Do you know what?

We really need to check in on Lorna Doon. But it was, I think I did that for O-Level. Isn't that terrible? I really have completely forgotten the plot. I've been the bloody mayor of Casterbridge, which is what I did. God. It starts with a, remember how the mayor of Casterbridge starts? Isn't it a clip-clop, clip-clop, somebody on a horse?

It's a wife-selling fair or something. Oh, so miserable. Unbelievable. Honestly, so miserable. Unbelievable. Honestly, things have improved. But actually, you had a solid TV recommendation today, didn't you? Oh, Blue Lights. Yes. So that's available on the BBC One.

Right. And it is a cop procedural, can never say that. It's set in Belfast and it is bloody brilliant, Jane. I'm having to pace myself on that one so i don't gorge it all in one sitting right but it's really good always good to get recommendations um this is from somebody who wishes to be anonymous because their teenagers would be quotes mortified if they discovered i'd take into emailing radio programmes and podcasts. What's your news alert?

Want to bring us a headline? It's from the BBC. It's from the BBC? What is it? They want me back. I'm so sorry about that. I just turned my notifications on because I was going to look up the plot of Lorna Doon while you were reading that email. Is the breaking news worth breaking?

Gosh, there's so much action now. Let me just get to the breaking news, just in case. You carry on with that, and I'll tell you what... OK, our anonymous correspondent writes, I am writing following your plea to hear from listeners from the north-east of Scotland. I'm here to tell you that you can rest assured that you are reaching us loud and clear. Contrary to common stereotypes about Scots all being vocal Glaswegians, you'll find that many

Scots, particularly from the east coast, are naturally rather more reserved. We listen, but we keep our opinions quietly to ourselves. I expect you'll get emails from Glasgow now if you dare share this comparison. I am of course poking gentle fun at these characteristics. If you've read any of the brilliant Alexander McCall Smith Scotland street novels you'll understand that we're just a little quieter in the east than our west coast neighbours but equally warm and self-deprecating. We have a truly beautiful coastline from Edinburgh to Dundee and Angus. Dundee has been ranked the coolest city in the UK recently. We have brilliant cycle paths, art, music, the V&A,

home of the gaming industry in the UK, and of course also home of the Discovery, the ship that took Captain Scott to the Antarctic in 1901. At the risk of sounding like a tourist guide, Angus Glen's are magical. As far as listeners go, I have a group of school friends all now in our 50s. And whilst initially slightly hesitant to change with you, we all regularly listen and chat about the show. Oh, thank you, Anonymous.

And our very best to your to your compadres up there. Up in the Glens. Up in the Glens. So we used to spend our family holidays up Glenesque, which is one of those beautiful Angus Glens. And I would absolutely concur that the East Coast beaches are just beautiful. There's one called Lunan Bay, which I think is just such an evocative name as well, because it's in the shape of a half moon. And it's got a ruined castle on the headland there, which is just known as the Red Castle.

It's really a stunning place to be, and there's never anybody else on the beach. Well, you've given it away now. Well, I'd like to, actually, because that's a funny thing, isn't it, when people have really favourite places and they don't ever want to share them in case somebody else goes there and it becomes their favourite place. But they're stunning beaches. But people

do often head to the West Coast. And there are fewer midges on the East Coast as well. Okay, go East. So how lovely to hear from a group of people who are listening on the beautiful East Coast. Lorna Doon is a romance. It's a novel by the English author. Here's

where your English degree comes in handy Is it Henry, no, George No, it's the other one, Richard Richard Blackmore, published in 1869 and it is a romance based on a group of historical characters set in the late 17th century in Devon and Somerset particularly around Exmoor. I thought it was about Scotland.

No. I had no idea. I thought it was a Scottish thing. I apologise. I've got so much wrong today. No, you haven't. You've got everything right, love. Deborah writes to fill us in on the subject of henges.

Now, I was very interested in this. This is when we were talking about Stonehenge to Tony Robinson last Wednesday. If you missed that, by the way, he was a particularly nice and interesting chap, wasn't he? He was, yeah. So you can find that obviously on the feed. It's last Wednesday's off air. And we were talking about what a henge is. Now, I was interested in this because I have just read a book by the crime writer Ellie Griffiths which is about an archaeologist who teams up with a slightly taciturn police chap to solve crimes

You don't say! I know! A taciturn police chap! I know! It's astonishing! It's very unusual I have a bit of an affair but he's buried Anyway, I think I only read the first book, it's a very long series, a very successful series of books about an archaeologist and a detective and the first one is called i think crossing paths but anyway loads

of people would have read them already um but this email from deborah just makes it clear what a henge is it's a neolithic and henges do feature it throughout these eddie griffiths books i should say a henge is a neolithic i.e new. New Stone Age earthwork, typically comprising a ring-shaped earthen bank with a ditch running around the circumference inside the bank. A henge may or may not contain structures such as stone or timber circles, and the three biggest British henges with stone circles are Avebury and Wiltshire, which isn't far from Stonehenge, and then the Great Circle at Stanton Drew in Somerset, and in Orkney there is the Ring of Brodgar. There are also significant henges in Yorkshire,

but they don't have significant internal structures. I mean, this is apparently, we still don't really know what was going on in British Bree history and why these things were needed and whether or not they were used as some sort of ancient method of communication it's just very weird and very spooky and never not fascinating yeah one of the things that I was most intrigued by in our conversation with Tony Robinson is the connection that has been made though with the henges all around the country So he was referring to some Neolithic structures in Orkney and asking, and they don't know the answer to this question, why there would be this similarity.

And the obvious thing is that because somebody travelled from Orkney to Wiltshire and therefore... That's quite a long way. Well, I was going to say. How did they do it? I mean, National Express coaches didn't get going until, what mid-60s imagine embarking on that trip i know that you have your issues with avanti west but i think actually setting off for out of all british pre-history avanti west must have been really shy which is all i'm prepared to say challenging this is so fascinating

deborah says may i suggest you invite Tom Booth from the Crick Institute to talk about the new ancient DNA analysis techniques. And this is so fascinating, which show that a 90% change in the genetic makeup of the population of the British Isles took place starting around the time the Amesbury archer visited Stonehenge. Think about it, she says, the 90% replacement of indigenous genes by Central European ones over just a few generations. A well-known archaeologist Alison Sheridan attributes this to the British women's fascination with so-called funny foreigners. British women's fascination with so-called funny foreigners. So it sounds to me like pre-British woman,

sick to death of old man Eric and his tedious ways, fell passionately into the arms of a fella who had a little bit more charm. Well, we've got to get him on as a guest. I mean, what? That's an amazing change. And I love all this stuff because it just, people who witter on about, you know, indigenous British populations, you don't know what you're talking about. None of us do.

None of us know who we are, where we're from, or, you know, it makes racism so moronic. I mean, it is moronic, but when you actually read stuff like this you realise how idiotic it all is Let's book that guest, I don't know why I'm using a funny voice Can I just say a very quick hello to Cathy Fellows

who has fallen in love with the three crime novels written by Susie Steiner and is passing them on to all of her bookworm friends I'm going to keep recommending Susie, actually, because I think it's just so, so sad that she died so young. But those three books are just brilliant, I think,

particularly for women of a certain age. And this is an anonymous one. It's about our conversation. We were talking about lottery winners, weren't we? Because somebody wrote in to say that they've been an amazing... And I knew people would. I mean, I don't blame them, them by the way for getting cross about this well no, so our emailer says just a quick note, a million pounds

would change the life of every family I know in lots of cases for two generations at least, I can't be the only person listening that's not loaded and I found the dismissive comments about the impact of a million pounds on people's lives to be really insensitive, well all I'm going to say, I'm going to say this in defence of Janeane that she's absolutely right that in london at the

moment it is it would be almost impossible to buy a house for a family near to where you work if you work in central london and that is about seven million people now for less than a million pounds that is the astonishing place that we've come to in modern economic society. So Jane wouldn't have been saying that in a kind of throwaway, oh, a million pounds or whatever. I think you were just trying to make the point that it just doesn't go as far as it should go.

I'm sure I said it clumsily, but you're quite right and thank you for that. But I wonder whether our listeners elsewhere in the world will just chip in here via email about house prices and renting. Oh, that would be a good thing to do, wouldn't it? It's such a concern in Britain that young people cannot even dream of getting on the housing ladder.

And what else did I want to mention? There was something more significant. Well, while you find something, can we just ask Jane Curzon to get back in touch? Because you sent us a very interesting email that Jane and I looked at and we weren't quite sure what it it was that you were um trying to tell us i think you've just left a couple of words out of that email actually jane but if you can write it again and let us know because it's about your experience of your son's birth and something that was said to you by a member of staff on the ward afterwards and we're a little bit intrigued by that i don't know why i've said

little like i'm some kind of a east ender are you quite well do you know what i feel this week's been quite long jane well we've both had a little bit of a virus haven't we um and not covid because obviously we wouldn't be here if we had had covid sensible but we be sensible. I've had a bit of a tickly throat. Really irritating little colds, which, of course, we have to accept are still around, just like they always were. But you do start to panic, don't you? I was imagining, I thought last weekend I definitely had COVID again. As it turns out, I haven't.

Here's some good advice from a listener called Susan. I've had various experiences of childbirth across my four children that aren't particularly unique, but one thing I was sure to do after my first baby was getting my hair done close to the due date. You will inevitably have photographs taken in the hours after the birth, and even though you may look exhausted, puffy, and frankly a bit sweaty, if you've had a decent blow dry in the previous few days, things won't look quite as dreadful. Just a small tip to share, she says. Here we are. Let everybody take note.

OK. I tell you what, no blow dry on this earth would have helped me. Well, both my kids were very, they didn't keep to their due dates. Their timekeeping sometimes asks something of me even now. So that wouldn't have worked. It was Gwyneth Paltrow's ski trial. Here's final arguments that the BBC had very kindly informed me about. Oh, that wasn't breaking news.

That is unbelievable. Right, where are you late? Yes, so come on, come on, because we've got two interviews to get in. So the first interview that we'd like to play you today is with the Nigerian writer Ayobami Adebayo. And her debut novel, Stay With Me, made the Women's Prize shortlist. It's a really lovely novel actually written about a disintegrating marriage. And it's kind of part thriller. It's part about Nigerian politics.

It's really, really good. She's written her second novel, which is called A Spell of Good Things. It's really, really good. She's written her second novel, which is called A Spell of Good Things. And in this one, she is shining her light on Nigeria and the gaping divide between the haves and the have-nots and the shared humanity that lies in between. We started the interview by asking her to just tell us a little bit about the two main characters. Thank you so much for having me. So A Spell of Good Things is about two families. And from each family, you have a central character

who we're with from the beginning of the novel to the end. And the first is Enyola. He's a teenage boy who's in secondary school. And his family has fallen on very difficult times to the point where they can't afford to pay their rent. And now his parents are struggling to pay school fees and he's quite desperate to continue his education. And that's where he sort of is at the beginning of the novel. And on the other side of the class divide, you have Waraola, who is a junior doctor.

She's in her first year of practice doing a housemanship and she is the perfect first daughter to her parents in that she's done everything you know she's done she studied medicine she's gotten good grades the only thing she hasn't done is get married and she's in a romantic relationship at the beginning of the novel. And she's figuring out whether marriage is for her or whether this relationship should go ahead. And their lives sort of become intertwined. The novel unfolds. I think there are all kinds of intersections in which the choices that each person makes impacts on the lives of the other one.

We shouldn't give away too much, because obviously we want people to read the book. I'm interested by that class divide, though. Is the Nigerian class divide very similar to our class divide in this country, which is still very much in evidence? I think in certain ways it is. In Nigeria, I think that right now it's getting even sharper and sharper. I guess you could call it a post-COVID recession. All kinds of new policies that have made life more difficult for people. And it's probably even a wider gulf because some of the public

infrastructure that would make things easier, say for instance, healthcare, solid public education, many of them are either collapsed or in the process of collapsing so that I think any kind of mobility is much harder now than say maybe 30 or 40 years ago. I also felt it was very much a book about male pride actually and perhaps something in the male psyche, which just doesn't allow an acceptance of failure, or an acceptance that life might change. Is that something that you very much wanted me as the reader to feel? So when you're reading, you go through, you go to nine points of view. And you get the interior lives of nine different characters. And two of them are the fathers of these young people that I've mentioned earlier.

And Eniola's father, the young boy's father in particular, has lost his job. And by losing his job, he has lost the life that he thought was possible to him and the kind of life that he thought he could make possible to his family and he's having a very difficult time with that partly because he struggles with a mental health condition and also partly because there is such an assumption that he would be the primary provider for his family. And when he cannot be that person, he can't reconcile his reality with the identity he's tried to live up with, you know, all his life. And there's in quite a number of instances still that sense of pride when there are opportunities that, for instance, his wife takes advantage of, you know, to help the family. He can't bring himself that low.

It had all kinds of quite often you know we know don't we that that can make the younger generation very vulnerable actually if you have to do what your elders say but I wonder as a youngish woman yourself whether you think actually that's changing now in Nigeria. So much of that power play between generations has been really challenged over the last couple of decades, hasn't it? Yeah, I mean, I think that, I mean, it's changed quite a bit. I don't think that necessarily the expectations that, say, my grandparents had of my parents applied by the time I was growing up.

But there are still expectations in many instances of following a certain path that your parents think is best for you or the people that are older than you think is best. And there are all kinds of reasons. So I think I do think, like you said, that it has changed over time. And you see a bit of that reflected, for instance, in the novel, in the relationship across, and I'm using this word very loosely, the three generations. Did you talk much to members of your family about being a doctor? Yes. So with the book, when I was writing it, I think when I started started writing it my sister was still in medical school and she went through her junior and housemanship while I was still writing it you know and because we're quite close we talked a lot you know while she was going through that one year

um we would see each other now and then um weren't living in the same city at that point, but we would make time to visit and see each other and just catch up. I mean, I think that our own experiences really, one, inspired me to write The Young Woman as a Doctor. When I started writing the novel, if I remember correctly, she was a lawyer. I think she was studying law and she was practicing as a lawyer. When I was, I guess, halfway through, I made that change into having the character being a doctor because there was

just something very compelling that I was observing from, say, my sister and even some of my friends who had just started to practice medicine in Nigeria. The experiences that they were having and some of the stories they were telling of, I guess, being on the front line as junior doctors, you know, being the first point of call and all the pressure that came with that and how they were dealing with it or not dealing with it. And I really wanted to write that into this character. So yes, my sister in particular, she would read, by the time I was done, she read parts of it and said,

no, this wouldn't work like this, nobody does this. And all of that. Yeah, sisters can be quite useful at times like that. I'm really struck by how little people in Western Europe, on the whole, know about the politics of Nigeria. And I did not know, for example, there was a point in Nigeria's recent history, when humanities teachers were just sacked, just got rid of because the humanities were not considered important. When was that? So this is about the early 2000s. So at some point, I think between 2001 and 2003. And this happened in a

particular state. So there are 36 states. And in a particular state, I think maybe about 80% of the teachers in the humanities were sacked. Several subjects were summarily just crap, because the government in power claimed that this was no longer relevant to the education of young people. But what did happen on the national level, which I think he's quite telling, was that at some point in the last 10 to 15 years, history was removed from the curriculum for secondary school students and was only put back on it a few years ago. So there was this stretch of time where the decision was made that young people did not need to study history, did not need to know anything about

Nigeria's history. As you can imagine, I think that even now, the consequences of those choices are playing out in the way that the politics of the country is organise society in a way that they are not well enumerated, they are underpaid and nobody's really paying particular attention in government to their welfare. I think you're saying something to young children. You're saying something to the students that they're teaching. You're saying something to a generation that is coming up that this profession is not necessarily something you should consider. It's not valued by society and therefore might be a waste of your time. So I think that we're starting to see a bit of that, say people not choosing to go and pursue education. Your first novel, Stay With Me, was shortlisted for the Women's Prize for Fiction over here.

And I think we're kind of turning to the point of the year where that comes around again, aren't we? And there is always this conversation, why do we need a prize just for women writers? Can't we all just exist in the same place and whatever? And I wonder whether you could explain why it is important as a writer to have a prize like that available to you? A Women's Prize was a prize that I had followed, you know, before even getting published. And the fact that my first novel was shortlisted for it definitely

got that book into many more hands than it would have gotten into if it hadn't been on that short list. But thinking about A Price for Women specifically, I really don't think that we're in a place yet in many parts of the world where the experience of being a woman and whatever else might intersect with that is normative or is what is the norm even in language, in conversation, the dominant stories that undergird our lives, in the dominant metaphors even that undergird our lives. metaphors even that undergird our lives. It's a prize that continues to be important in platforming stories

by women and in many instances often about the lives of women. So I think it's a prize that continues to be important because we are not at that point where we can say, oh, we can

just all exist on the same planet. I think there's still different distinctions in experience that necessitate a prize like the Women's Prize. That was Ayobami Adebayo, and that novel is called A Spell of Good Things. We were also joined on the Times radio programme today by Deputy Times food editor Hannah Evans. radio program today by deputy times food editor hannah evans now there's an alarming trend which you won't approve of any more than we do to take very small children to very high-end restaurants michelin starred restaurants even here's hannah my palette i was obviously born with an incredibly refined palette so i've been eating um michelin star baby food my whole life um but yeah um but yes more and more michelin star restaurants are offering kids menus which um yes it does sound a bit like fresh hell um

and they're they're not just kind of like bangers and mash or shepherd's pie um pierre de terre costs uh sells a 40 pound tasting menu um starting with cheesy canapés, smoked quail with celeriac tagliatelle topped with black truffle, petit furs, there's a mocktail and a baby chino to finish. Yeah, your kid's just going to be sick. I mean, all of those flavours all mixed together. There's a face that a child makes if it's anything other than beans potato waffles and maybe a bit of broccoli and that face you don't want to see it i know you know you're lucky if you can get a bit or or high as a kite the ritz does a children's tasting menu for their afternoon tea um which is 48 pounds oh for heaven's sake and you apply i mean i feel like

i'm on a sugar high after an afternoon tea. So the poor little baby is going to be bouncing off the walls. Hyde in Mayfair, which is Olly Deboe's one-star restaurant, has truffle mash for children, £24 a bowl. And Saint-Pierre, which is a French Michelin-star restaurant with three stars in Singapore, has a tasting menu that begins with amuse-bouche for the little baby kins. Perishes, yes.

Then there is Tom Kerridge's restaurant, Hand and Flowers, in Marlow, offers a £42 steak for children. Okay, I would have expected better from him, actually. Yeah, I think so. Well, actually, if you are looking for Michelin star children food at a bit of a budget, Le Manoir... We're not. No, we're really not.

Are you not? No, I think this is so ridiculous. It is ridiculous. But tell us about what Le Manoir is offering. Well, they offer a more budget tasting menu. So £24 for three courses for a child, which is better. You're not looking convinced. So just on every level, there is going to be too much salt and sugar in all of those menus.

The idea that any kid wants to add truffle to their mashed potatoes. I don't think I even want to add truffle to my mashed potatoes. No, me neither. And also, what are these kids doing in the restaurants i mean you know you go out for a meal to get away from the little charmers well in so we have we're running a feature on this in the times magazine on saturday and this is a predicament that the writer has in that she's taken her her one-year-old and her three-year-old to the Ritz. And the scones are sort of just rolling around on the floor, skewered on a fork. But there are other children there, she sees.

She says they're just as welcoming as her soft play. It's not the real world, this. Can we just determine this, just so that everybody's clear, that Fia and I strongly disapprove. We'll not be indulging in it. I think those are quite hard environments for kids to be in, actually. And so that is a choice entirely made by the parents

for the parents to go to those catholic classrooms. And of course, and you don't have the kind of recognisable setting or, you know, there are new noises, there are new people. You're not really going to be concentrating on anything if you're a child. And one of the kids described in this, I mean, it's a brilliant article.

It's really good fun. Who I think was in one of the finest hotels that may even have been at the Ritz had been taken there in her white Louis Vuitton dress. Yes. I mean, who puts a child in a white Louis Vuitton dress? I was in hand-me-downs, so I don't even have an adult Louis Vuitton dress. Hannah, you've done so well for yourself. Thank you.

I'm sorry that we didn't get on to talking about other things. No, no, that's the thing. We were just completely boss and bug-eyed by that article. It is quite extraordinary. How much for the steak again at Tom Carragher's? £42. Okay. You know, the price of a Happy Meal sometimes seems well within most people's reach, I would have thought.

Absolutely. Also quite tasty. Hannah Evans, Deputy Food Editor of The Times. Actually, if you missed the live Times radio show today, another thing we talked about, which was really interesting, was the importance of touch. And you can go back and hear the programme on wherever you get Times radio from.

It's all there on the app, isn't it? Is it? You can listen back, can't you? Yeah. Why are people looking at me as though I'm a maniac? I don't know. Just a little bit too much kool-aid now we've got an exciting experiment that kate lee is now going to furnish us with because we spend quite a lot of our time on the program talking about artificial intelligence we're intrigued by it we know you're intrigued by it so the production team have been superb and they've come up with a challenge jane thank you where

they've uh they've given us two emails one is a normal email from a regular proper human pundit with a beating heartbeat and a brain and the other one has been created by chat gpt so i'll read one you read the other and we've got to decide which one's which. And they're both titled Name for Your Portaloo Company. OK, I'm going to do the one from Danny. Hello, Jane and Fee. On Monday's podcast, you mentioned a business where you drive women's portaloos around the West End so women can pee and avoid queues. I have a name, Mind Your Pees and Queues. Obviously a name, Mind Your Peas and Queues.

Obviously a play on Mind Your Peas and Queues. I also had a similar idea. It's very good, that. I also had a similar idea based on the price of adding extra avocado or halloumi to a takeaway meal or salad in central London. What times we live in. They charge over a pound to throw a slice of avocado on top.

The business basically involved buying the cheapest possible avocados and talumi from a budget supermarket, chopping it up and selling it out of a van to people who've just bought salads or sandwiches from takeouts in central London for lunch. What do you think? All the best, Dani. Okay, so is that for reals or is that chat GPT? And here's another one. Dear Jane and Fee, I'm a huge fan of your show and I recently heard you talking about starting a pretend port-a-loo company. I couldn't resist the urge to reach out to you with a name idea for your new venture.

After giving it some thought, I came up with the name Royal Flush for your pretend port-a-loo company. I think it's a catchy and memorable name that perfectly captures the essence of your business. And you know what, mister? I think you're not real. But anyway, the name Royal Flush has a nice ring to it and it's a play on the... Yeah, you're not real

and it's a play on the term used in poker. It also invokes the image of a powerful and efficient toilet flush, which is exactly what you want your customers to think of when they use your portable toilets. I hope you like my name suggestion and would love to hear your thoughts keep up the great work on your show best regards artificial intelligence i'm absolutely convinced that mine is the made-up one uh on what basis there's too much um there's too much in there it's not that's not human that is not. I've got to be right.

If I'm not right, I want to pack in because I just feel something approaching total despair. Okay. I'm going to agree with you because I think it was just a bit too wordy, the catchers and catchers. But it's a good name, Royal Flush. Yeah, not bad at all.

Kate, which one was the AI one? The second one was the AI one. Oh, so we got it right. So we did get it right. It's actually, keeping up the theme, a relief. It is. But what a great challenge as well. Yes.

Because it wasn't far off the mark. It wasn't, but it was obvious to me, well, to us both, that that wasn't real. But if that had just been in a pile of other emails, I think we would have read it and just gone, well, that's quite a dull email, but thank you. And that's the really frightening thing. Isn't it?

You are right. Well, have a really dystopian and depressing weekend, everybody, and we'll be back. As real people. And I tell you what, I wonder whether the AI robots of the future will make as many cock-ups as us. That might be our absolute salvation, the fact we're a little bit raggedy round the edges.

I hope so. Have a lovely weekend, whatever you're doing, and speak to you on Monday. Oh, and just before we go, could we let you know about a special podcast that drops into the feed tomorrow? That's Friday. It is our Royal Special where we had a sit-down. I didn't realise that was a thing, but we had a sit-down, didn't we, Jane? With Roya Nika from the Sunday Times and Valentine Lowe from the Times, respective royal correspondents.

And we discussed six months on from the death of Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II and we looked ahead to the coronation. And those two know things, don't they? So it was a very interesting conversation. You don't have to be a nailed-on monarchist to get something out of that podcast, which drops tomorrow. You did it. Elite listener status for you for getting through another half hour or so

of our whimsical ramblings. Otherwise known as the hugely successful podcast Off Air with Jane Garvey and Fee Glover. We missed the modesty class. Our Times Radio producer is Rosie Cutler, the podcast executive producer. It's a man. It's Henry Tribe. Yeah, he's an executive.

Now, if you want even more, and let's face it, who wouldn't, then stick Times Radio on at three o'clock Monday until Thursday every week. And you can hear our take on the big news stories of the day, as well as a genuinely interesting mix of brilliant and entertaining guests on all sorts of subjects. Thank you for bearing with us. And we hope you can join us again on Off Air very soon.