Off Air... with Jane and Fi - We're all as gently batty as each other (with Amy Wallace)

Episode Date: October 21, 2025

Fi is sadly still off, so Jane is holding down the fort. There’s more Cheltenham chat, musings on omelette stations, reflections on sumo wrestlers, and thoughts on sauerkraut. Plus, Amy Wallace, co...-writer of Virginia Giuffre's memoir ‘Nobody’s Girl’, discusses the book and the life of Giuffre. We've announced our next book club pick! 'Just Kids' is by Patti Smith.You can listen to the playlist here: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/3qIjhtS9sprg864IXC96he?si=uOzz4UYZRc2nFOP8FV_1jg&pi=BGoacntaS_uki.If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: janeandfi@times.radioFollow us on Instagram! @janeandfiPodcast Producer: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Starting point is 00:00:00 Every story you love, every invention that moves you, every idea you wished was yours, all began as nothing. Just a blank page asking a simple question. What do you see? Great ideas start on Mac. Find out more at Apple.com slash UK slash Mac. At PWC, we don't just deliver ideas. We make them work.
Starting point is 00:00:35 With the expertise in tech, you need to outthink and outperform, and we work with you, alongside you, from start to finish. So you can stay ahead, so you can protect what you built, so you can create new value. We build for what's next, so you can get there now. PWC, so you can. PWC refers to the PWC network and all one or more of its member firms, each of which is a separate legal entity.
Starting point is 00:01:02 This episode of off-air is sponsored by Tenor. Let's talk about something that affects so many of us, but we don't always feel comfortable discussing, menopause. And that's why Tenor is partnering with us to spark open and empowering conversations on the topic. They want to help normalise the conversation, reduce the stigma, and drive real change for women's health and well-being during menopause.
Starting point is 00:01:26 That's right, Jane. Tenor is committed to supporting menopausal women by elevating their well-being and their proud partners of Gen M, an organisation working to normalise menopause conversations and drive systemic change. And part of that is helping women rethink bladder weakness, seeing it not as a limitation, but as something they can manage confidently and proactively. The new Tenor discrete ultra pads are designed with real women's needs in mind. They're now even thinner, but they still offer triple protection.
Starting point is 00:01:57 against leaks, odour and moisture. So why not try the new tenor, discreet, ultra-pads for yourself? They're thinner, but they have that triple protection you'd expect from the experts at tenor. If you want to learn more and explore their menopause support resources, visittenor.com.uk. Right. Hello and welcome to Tuesday. days off air and I'm really sorry Fee hasn't made it in today but well what can we do except
Starting point is 00:02:33 send positive vibes a few no we won't get to any medic I mean I know I'm a qualified doctor as I've illustrated many times but you don't need to hear any details but I'm pretty certain she'll be back with us very very soon so sending lots of positive vibes her way
Starting point is 00:02:49 and I trust Nancy the Greyhound is playing her part in her revival I'm sure she will be now this is an addition of off-air in which the interview, our guest interviewee, is Amy Wallace. And Amy Wallace is the woman, highly, I should say highly decorated journalist, somebody who'd worked for the Los Angeles Times for over a decade. She's written for any number of reputable publications. And she is the woman who worked with Virginia Dufre on her memoir, Nobody's Girl. And it's a very, very, I've got a
Starting point is 00:03:24 copy of it in front of me here and I was telling friends about it at the weekend and a friend of mine said oh you know I'd really like to read that and I said in all honesty would I mean I want people to buy this book because I'd like it to be a success but would I recommend that people read it the answer is only if you have the strength frankly to get through some of the detail in this book. It's really, really harrowing and upsetting. And in fact, Virginia herself in the book does say, please keep reading. This might be really difficult, but please can you keep going? Don't put it down, even though you might want to. And I was really glad she said that, because to be honest, at that point, it was quite relatively soon into the book, if that makes
Starting point is 00:04:13 sense. I did actually need to hear that. I needed her words of encouragement to keep going because it's a tough old read. So Amy isn't just some, I don't know, some Tupany, Heapney hack who's decided to write a book to make loads of money for herself. She's a highly esteemed journalist and this has been painstakingly researched and double-checked and fact-checked into the into oblivion frankly so you can trust it but that doesn't mean it's easy to read so Amy Wallace is our guest today and I think this is my long-winded way of saying if that's just not something you feel like hearing today then we totally understand and join us again when we have something that is perhaps something that you're able to hear without it being too upsetting but of course
Starting point is 00:05:03 I do want you to hear what Amy's got to say because I think this story is of the very greatest importance. So Amy Wallace coming up in just a couple of minutes on our fare today. I just want to thank you for some of your lovely letters and messages. Can I say, first of all, to Claire. She has sent us some sauerkraut. She calls it something else. As promised, Jane and Fee, please find enclosed my homemade Kim Crout, as I like to call it. I'm hoping that this recipe convinces you, Jane, that there is tasty sourcrow out there. You may not, of course. Okay, well, I'll return with my all-important verdict in a couple of days. But Claire, thank you very much for your kindness.
Starting point is 00:05:44 And Kathy just says, I'm just back from road-tripping in sunny Canada. As usual, we were entertained by you and your guests. The highlights this time were a weekend at a lakeside cottage with a stop at Parry Sound, three and a half-hour drive from our daughter's house, just half an inch on the map. It is incredible, isn't it?
Starting point is 00:06:05 We watched customers at the restaurant arrived by jet ski on whizzy motorboats or on a seaplane. Wow. Canada has its very own Stratford with theatres, a lake and a river Avon. Didn't know that. We saw a wonderful production of Sense and Sensibility. Sitting next to us were two American women who assured us that they were the good ones. Canadians are very polite, so their protests against the Orange Man next door include branding whiskey and chocolate with the elbows up sticker. Right, you can make of that what you will. But the best bit of the trip was watching British volunteers
Starting point is 00:06:44 ringing tiny birds migrating south at the oldest bird reserve in the Americas, Longpoint on the shore of Lake Erie. I hope I've pronounced that right. I'm looking at Eve. Not sure. Present, very much in the room, but not sure. We saw herons and cranes galore on the way home.
Starting point is 00:07:09 We were stuck at a level crossing for five minutes. And we heard an email from one of the Bell Stars on our fair and all girls group from the 80s. And that was brilliant because it allowed us an opportunity to revisit all the Bell Star's hits. Yes, Stella Bell Star has been just keeping us abreast retrospectively of the Bell Star's adventures back in the 80s. And we've really enjoyed hearing from her.
Starting point is 00:07:32 And I'm glad you did as well, Kathy. Thank you very much for that. Let's get stuck into some of your thoughts on Cheltenham. I think everybody, actually, can I just say, for one, Steve, I think we did satisfy everybody, didn't we at Cheltenham? You can put your microphone on again. We let her do a little bit this yesterday. She's got the taste for it.
Starting point is 00:07:50 Thank you so much. And, yeah, everyone seemed happy all around. Were you happy? Yeah, I was happy too. You have a nice time. Yeah, I had a nice time. Well, you and Rosie, you stayed in a hotel the night before, didn't you? Yeah, we did.
Starting point is 00:08:02 I had a really nice omelet in the morning. started the day really really well actually is there an omelette station that was not an omelette station but it was kind of made to order oh so effectively that is an yeah i thought the omelette station was where you went and then you ordered and somebody just did it in front of you but then sometimes don't you have to put the toppings on top okay well that's it turned out to be more controversial in the weeds a bit yeah okay um if anyone's got any thoughts i mean haven't help you if you have it's uh jane and fee at times dot radio we're in a different slightly different studio. I mean, nobody's interested in these details, but we are in a different studio. And
Starting point is 00:08:37 Eve just sat back a little bit too abruptly and nearly fell off the chair. I'm just thinking for a second there that my first aid skills might be required. Right. Sarah is in Cheltenham. She's from Cheltenham. And she says, I was in the audience on Thursday listening to both interviewing Penny Lancaster. Now, what a treat. She seems a lovely lady very down to earth. I wish it had gone on longer. My friend who was with me did comment on how small you both were. lucky we had the screen to see you as we weren't very central so we couldn't see you in the flesh very well
Starting point is 00:09:09 I hope you enjoyed yourselves and had a good journey back home and didn't go backwards until Gloucester no we didn't I had a lovely Thursday after seeing you I met with other friends at a Japanese restaurant for a pre-theater meal and then we went to the Everyman to see Blood Brothers
Starting point is 00:09:23 which is one of my favourite musicals well worth a watch thanks again for coming says Sarah don't thank us we're grateful to you Sarah thank you for being part of what was a really really really lovely event on Thursday. Penny, honestly, and I don't say this about every celebrity
Starting point is 00:09:39 at Fee and I meet, she really was lovely. So what you saw was what we got backstage as well. She just seems to be that way. And yeah, lovely, lovely woman. And Jenny says, it was lovely to meet you at the Literary Festival and spend time in the Times Radio Hot House. Yes, at one point, the studio where we were doing the Times Radio show, temperatures reached over 29 Celsius until we had the brilliant idea of propping the door open with a stool. I think actually you did that didn't you, Eve? Yeah. And did we thank you enough at the time? You did not.
Starting point is 00:10:11 Right, well I'm thanking you now. Also, Eve had to act as a kind of security guard when we... Let's be honest, all sorts of people turn up at these sorts of events. The very, very lovely, and occasionally,
Starting point is 00:10:27 let's just say it, occasionally the slightly eccentric, and there was one chap in a many-pocked anorak who stood in front of us looking slightly bewildered and asking a lot of questions. By the way, there was nothing unpleasant about this chap. But I think he'd been a journalist, hadn't he? He'd been a journalist at the local newspaper and he had a few things to, a few observations to make. He had some stories to tell.
Starting point is 00:10:52 Someone had kind of made a barrier out of stalls. And I think he thought that that was a seating area. Oh, right. So he was very, very close. Next year, I'll make sure that there's appropriate barriers to protect you. Okay. Thank you very much. There's going to be a next year. I mean, that in itself is a little bit of a life-enhancing boost.
Starting point is 00:11:10 I wasn't necessarily expecting. Jenny says, I just wanted to say how great the atmosphere was. I went on my own and so many people introduced themselves. That is fantastic. We started chatting and swapping stories. Honestly, it was like catching up with friends. We all had the common denominator of enjoying off-air. many of the people I spoke to were localish
Starting point is 00:11:30 but I also met people who'd come from Coventry and Warwickshire no Coventry and Hampshire sorry I just made up Warwickshire there I think it's because Coventry's very close to Warwickshire so I mean to travel from Hampshire for that experience that's impressive so glad you enjoyed it Jenny and I think honestly that really gives me a bit of a tingle that you met like-minded souls and that conversations opened up
Starting point is 00:11:54 and Fee and I've always said you can come to any of our shindsay on your own, and chances are you will fall into conversation with someone else. We're all as gently batty as each other, and that's kind of why we formed this community in the first place, so brilliant, and thank you so much. And Penny Lancaster will go out as a podcast as a kind of a seasonal treat. We might sneak it out in some of those occasionally testing, sometimes rather lovely days between Christmas and New Year. That would be good, wouldn't it?
Starting point is 00:12:26 Eve seems relatively positive about that. You know when you get to the 28th of December and you're running out of seasonal puff, just think how delighted you'll be when you get a little notification to say that off-air is giving you a bit of penny. So that's what we will aim to do that because she is worth hearing.
Starting point is 00:12:45 There was some serious elements to that conversation too, I should say. But a lot of fun was had as well. Emma says that she's been to the sumo event. Oh no she hasn't I beg you pardon She wanted to write in Because I was questioning Why you would go to the sumo event
Starting point is 00:13:03 Which I know is a sellout At the Royal Albert Hall In central London over the last couple of days Emma says you've got to understand Sumo is bloody brilliant I've just been on a two week trip to Japan with my mum It was her 80th treat I'm an only child
Starting point is 00:13:18 Silver lining she says We did a Wendy's offbeat Japan tour and in September we were lucky enough to go to the World Sumo Tournament in Tokyo it was a highlight of the trip I had no interest at all in these giant Japanese fellas but it was so exciting we were there for four hours and the excitement built the guys were all blubber and immense muscle there was a lot of theatre where they teased each other in a very entertaining way before each round each one had a different personality that came through in the pre-wrestle
Starting point is 00:13:53 shenanigans. The highlight was when both sumos fell out of the ring onto a referee, one headplant and the other right into his groin. The refs are ex-sumo so they know the drill, but two giant whales taking you out must do a bit of damage. Right. Emma, I, uh, yes, I imagine you're right. Uh, love your pod. You are keeping me sane. Emma. Thank you. I mean, that's quite the effort, let me tell you. But I think I've always stuck to my belief, and it's a genuine one, is that we're all keeping each other same. But in my experience, the only people who are a bit potty
Starting point is 00:14:37 are those people who don't acknowledge that they're a bit potty. I think if you just say, look, I'm slightly crackers. You're probably going to be all right. What's the matter? No, I like that. I can laugh at myself, me. It's so important. Do you ever trust anyone who says they've got a great sense of humour?
Starting point is 00:14:56 No, that's actually really true. Yeah, you should never do it, should you? Never make a claim like that. Let's very briefly bring in Carolyn, who's now 40. That is nothing. You are incredibly youthful. The last concert I went to was Barry Manlow at the Aegeus Bowl. It was a laugh that shouldn't have been made there.
Starting point is 00:15:16 So I respect you, Carolyn, and I respect your life choices. Here we go. Let's do it again. The last concert I went to is Barry Manilow at the Aegeus Bowl in Southampton, which was several years ago pre-COVID. I was about 33. I went alone. The boyfriend wouldn't go, but did drive me there and back.
Starting point is 00:15:33 So what did he do? Sit in the car park for two and a half hours. And I have absolutely no regrets. I loved it. I told my then-90-year-old grandmother about it afterwards, and she said, but isn't he very old? I have to say, I haven't been to another concert since, because I really enjoy my fun fact being that the last concert I went to was a Barry Manilow concert.
Starting point is 00:15:56 It's just not high up on people's guessing list. Yeah, I get that. And it remains the case with me that the last concert I saw was Cliff Richard. One fun Barry Manilow fact to end on, though I have not corroborated this, so perhaps we need to state allegedly, is that Barry unfortunately suffered a broken nose when he got up in the night in one of his many properties, forgot which one he was in, and turned and walked into a wall.
Starting point is 00:16:24 Oh, how the other half live. Toodle Pipp, says Carolyn, now an incredibly youthful 40. Okay, it must be an issue for the many homed when you do feel the need to answer a call of nature in the night and you just can't remember where you are. Yeah. Okay, right, thank you very much for that. Oh, yes. Now, hang on. Before we get on to our guest, so many people are telling us about Poneal. It is Poneal and not Ponele, isn't it? It's this Netflix series. And this is the latest recommendation from Sherry. I think the hive would really enjoy it. It's based in Norway, so there are subtitles. And it follows a 40-plus divorced mum raising two teenage daughters. She is a child social worker. And we get to see some of the casework she has to deal with. Loads of layers, strong female characters.
Starting point is 00:17:17 Really enjoyable with funny moments, says Sherry. I know my sister is mad about that show and other people have recommended it to me. And for whatever reason, I did try an episode and I couldn't get into it. But that will be me and it probably just means I've just got to delve further into it and actually make the attempt to watch more than one episode before I pass judgment. The other show, inevitably, we're getting loads and loads and loads of emails about is Riot Women. I still haven't watched it, but I'm going to start it. and then we can convene a group session on that
Starting point is 00:17:49 and tell each other what we think. But overwhelmingly, people are saying it's one of the best things they've ever watched on telly. And it does have the Sally Wainwright pedigree. So I guess it was always going to be good. Every story you love, every invention that moves you, every idea you wished was yours,
Starting point is 00:18:12 all began as nothing. Just a blank. page asking a simple question what do you see great ideas start on mac find out more at apple dot com slash uk slash mac at pwc we don't just deliver ideas we make them work with the expertise in tech you need to outthink and outperform and we work with you alongside you from start to finish So you can stay ahead, so you can protect what you built, so you can create new value. We build for what's next, so you can get there now. PWC, so you can.
Starting point is 00:18:57 PWC refers to the PWC Network and all one or more of its member firms, each of which is a separate legal entity. For over 140 years, the Royal Conservatory of Music has set the Canadian standard in music education and inspired generations of students through the power of music. Now, we're proud to introduce RCM Smart Start, a research-based early learning program designed by our in-house experts in music education and neuroscience. With a comprehensive research-informed curriculum, digital learning resources, and guided online training, RCM Smart Start equips educators with the tools they need to bring music and arts education into their classrooms. partner with us to bring RCM Smart Start to your institution
Starting point is 00:19:47 and give every child the foundation for a brighter future. Now there are some sensitive topics in the next interview. If you are affected by any of the issues raised, then please email feedback at times.radio. Prince Andrew is still making the headlines in Britain. If you need reminding, he stepped back from public life in 2019 after that interview on Newsnight. In February of 2022, he reached an out-of-court settlement with Virginia Dufray,
Starting point is 00:20:18 who'd accused him of sexual assault in 2001. When she was 17 and he was 41, he denies all the allegations of wrongdoing. On Friday, Prince Andrew gave up his titles, but remains a prince. Virginia Dufray took her own life in the April of this year. Amy Wallace is the award-winning reporter chosen by Virginia to help her write her memoir Nobody's Girl, which is out today. Amy, started the conversation by telling me how they both worked so hard to ensure that every word in this book was accurate. We knew the book had to be even more airtight than I like to keep everything, which is that probably was one of the reasons
Starting point is 00:20:58 that she hired me. I've been a journalist for more than 30 years. She was incredibly forthcoming, and her memory was startling. I'm not taking her word for it. I had, I checked it. And over and over again she would tell a story that might even sound outlandish or like how could this possibly be true this young girl was at a party on a yacht you know and for a model's 30th birthday and then sometimes we got help from again celebrity photographers who were at the party and these these photos would surface there's a famous one of of Virginia looking very very young in the foreground sort of the back of Gillen's side of her face, you know, lurking nearby on this same party that Virginia had told me about. I'm really glad that you mentioned that image of Virginia at the age of 17 at a party for Naomi Campbell.
Starting point is 00:21:56 Anybody who looks at that photograph, effectively, it is a crime scene, isn't it? Because you can see, as you say, the waif-like figure of this teenager surrounded by ultra-sely. sophisticates at least a decade or more older than her. Nobody, nobody called it out, no one. Yeah. No, there's a scene in the book about that picture where another victim comes forward and tells her, I came forward, I saw you in that picture, there was no question. That was a child, and that was Virginia.
Starting point is 00:22:33 So it's something that we make clear in the book, but Virginia didn't just bravely stand up against others who had abused her. She also inspired other victims who had been hurt and were terrified just like Virginia was. She paid a savage price for her courage in coming forward. And it is clear in the book that her physical health is really compromised. And obviously so is her mental health. And we now know that tragically she took her own life in the April of this year. Can I just ask you how you found out about that and how you felt about it?
Starting point is 00:23:19 Well, it was a Friday morning California time. There's a very tight team of people who have been working on this book or involved in Virginia's life for years and we were all in very close touch and keeping track and have you talked to her have you talked to her making sure she was okay what did you hear the last time and one of those people just called me and she said um virginia's gone and i said what do you mean you know and she said she's she's she's dead um and i was shocked which Readers of the book may wonder about that, you know, Virginia was adamant that we talk about and acknowledge, you know, herself as a woman in full, her highs and her lows. And we acknowledge
Starting point is 00:24:16 in the book that she had attempted to kill herself before. So on the one hand, I knew that she had this sort of wolf at the door, this voice in her head, which she described to me as saying, the world will be a better place without you in it. Basically, a voice that says you are worthless. And readers of this book will understand when they see what she went through in her entire life, not just with Epstein and Maxwell, but in previous situations as well,
Starting point is 00:24:47 that you'll understand why she felt worthless at times. Yes. And even every day to some degree because she'd been treated like she had no worth over and over and over again by adults who had betrayed her. So that was there. And yet, she was such a resilient, lovely woman.
Starting point is 00:25:08 She had a sense of humor. She had numerous coping mechanisms, which we describe in the book. And so I was still shocked. And I remain so sad. You know, she should be the one doing this interview. This is her triumph, this book, where she was bravely calling out, not just the people who did it, but the part of our culture that still fetishizes young girls, and that has not died with Jeffrey Epstein or gone to prison with Glenn Maxwell,
Starting point is 00:25:43 and frankly, just misogyny. It's anti-woman. It's women are here for our use. Girls are here for our use. It is that belief system that she was pointing her finger at. And she was doing that for all of us to make the world a better place, not just to tell her own story. Of course. I don't want to interrupt Amy, but for people who haven't read the book, you've already alluded to this. But she died at the age of 41. She says in the book that her father had sexually abused her from the age of seven. He denies this. You, I know, have talked to Virginia's mother who, well, how can we saw my up, she doesn't disbelieve the allegations that Virginia made about her father. Would that be an accurate way of describing it? I would go further. She believes what Virginia told her, but Virginia
Starting point is 00:26:38 told it to her when Virginia was an adult. You know, I think I have talked to Lynn, Virginia's mom at length, and to her two brothers. She has one brother five years older, one five years younger. The five years younger brother was too young to know it was going on. The five years older brother was sent away to a sort of a school, a boarding school, basically. And so he wasn't around when a lot of it was happening in the house. I have a lot of empathy for Virginia's mom. She was dealing with her own ailing mother at the time. She was working. These were not wealthy people. These were people who were getting by. And everybody was busy. there were three kids in the house.
Starting point is 00:27:28 It is so painful to her mom to know how hurt her daughter was under her own roof and obviously later as well. And, you know, I, I asked her point blank, well, do you believe what she said? And she said, absolutely. She is no longer with Virginia's father. Right. But to those people who will say, and honestly, I'm sure you like I, her, have read comments over the last couple of days,
Starting point is 00:27:59 incredibly ignorant, ill-informed remarks from people making the same old misogynist points. Why didn't they leave? Well, they were getting paid. They're no better than they ought to be. What's that other expression? Party girls. How do you counter all this, Amy?
Starting point is 00:28:16 Well, I think it's part and parcel of what I was just talking about. It's misogyny. It says that if women dare to speak up, that they're liars and sluts. and I guess here's how I try to explain it to people I know, and there are a lot of them, reasonable people who are like, well, if it's so bad, just leave. What you have to understand what the book attempts to paint a picture of is that when you are a young person, a child who is introduced to the idea that grown men rape children
Starting point is 00:28:51 and they don't pay a price for it, you begin to think. after a while, that's the world. That's how it works. So I just need to navigate inside that world. When you believe those things, and Virginia, as you will see, had plenty of reason to believe them, you don't think that escaping out of the front door of the Manhattan mansion or, you know, somehow swimming, it would be impossible to swim off the island, is going to get you anywhere better. The world works like this. is what you believe. And so you just have to navigate it. And so this idea that, and I will, I'll go further. This book is a predator's playbook. It shows you how these people, and Maxwell
Starting point is 00:29:40 was arch among them, tell these girls a really weird, deranged mixed message that is very effective. They say, you are going to sexually service us. And Galane Maxwell was just as involved in the sexual abuse as Jeffrey Epstein was. But also, we posh people see that you, an impoverished girl, have promise. You can have a wonderful life. We'll help you get it. We think you are so special. And those girls, a lot of them, had not either never been told that before, they'd not been told it enough. And it's that that kept them there as well as anything else because they needed that.
Starting point is 00:30:29 In this country, inevitably and rightly, the focus has been on the allegations against Prince Andrew, who continues to deny the allegations. What, apart from the fact that some of his titles have been removed or gone into abeyance, whatever, the technical expression is. To be perfectly honest, Amy, it doesn't make a lot of sense to most of us in this country. How that translates to people outside the UK, I simply don't know. He does say, and he said in his statement on Friday, that he denies these allegations. So bearing that
Starting point is 00:31:06 denial in mind, what could he, what should he do now? Well, you know, in his settlement with Virginia, There was a lot of verbiage about how he really feels for these victims now, even though he did not express any of that empathy in his Newsnight interview with BBC. And nor did he say that on Friday either. Yeah, it was basically this idea has been expressed in his voice on paper written by somebody that he cares about this issue. He thinks it's an outrage. And you think, well, he probably should.
Starting point is 00:31:43 He has daughters. If he does care about that, I think there is more room for him to be more active, and by which I mean, this is a man, well, let's leave aside what he does or does not admit to. He was in those houses. He was on that island. He was on the jets. Those jets were remodeled to have a lot of bedrooms. That was the entire way.
Starting point is 00:32:12 They were gutted inside and then bedrooms. They were places to traffic girls. So he saw things that were going on. And if he cares so deeply about this, he could share that information with investigators. This is what happened. Let me validate their experience. Have any of the other men involved done exactly that?
Starting point is 00:32:35 Not that I know of, no. In the United States, and I think that's a good point. I know we're going out to listeners in the UK. And Prince Andrew is obviously top of mind. This story is not about Prince Andrew. This story is about more than a dozen, if not dozens, of men, powerful men, who felt entitled to use these girls as their sexual play things. In the case of Andrew, we know that he actually knew how young she was because there was a guessing game. It's in the book where Galane makes him guess how old she is.
Starting point is 00:33:11 Some of them might claim, I didn't even know how old they were. I don't care. They knew that Epstein surrounded himself with young women. That was part of the draw of coming to be it with him. And there are a lot of them. And it was always Virginia's fondest wish that they be held to account. That's why in the United States there is this clamoring call to release the Epstein files. Because those names I know from Virginia, I know the names that she told the FBI.
Starting point is 00:33:42 I know the names that she told them repeatedly. And Virginia is just one of many women who came forward bravely and talked to investigators. And I think we don't even know all of the women because some of them did it privately and have never come forward to the public, as is their right to protect their privacy. So we do need all of us to stand up to this.
Starting point is 00:34:06 We need women to talk about it and men. And if Sandra would like to give that charge, I would welcome it. Right. So if the truth is, though, the terrible truth, as you've indicated, is that if Prince Andrew were to come forward and describe what he saw and what he knew, he'd be the first man to actually do that. I mean, that's incredible, isn't it? Well, I mean, of course, we all understand the concept of you are innocent until you are proven guilty. And we also understand the very basic idea that sexual abuse often happens behind a closed door and it's often either one. either two people involved or maybe three, if Gillen Maxwell is there, abusing as well, which often happened. But it's a he said, she said. And those cases, any lawyer will tell you, are difficult because what happens is the victims are always vilified or made to seem like
Starting point is 00:35:00 liars or drug addicts or fill in the blank. And they're hard to win. So what's happened so far, at least with the men that Virginia has named in depositions that are public. You know, those men have just said, well, we deny it. Yeah. Which brings us on, obviously, in the States, Donald Trump, who does appear briefly in Nobody's Girl, we should say, in a very brief encounter with Virginia and her father at Mar-a-Lago. Lots of people in the States believe that he is implicated in this too.
Starting point is 00:35:35 Do you believe that the Epstein files so-called will be made fully public in the U.S. in the near future or at all? Well, I have no window into that. I find it sort of mystifying that Donald Trump campaigned as one of his main planks for returning to the presidency. He campaigned on the idea that he was going to release the Epstein files, something that Virginia was felt very validated by. I should say in the book, there is no scene because Virginia had never seen any such scene of Donald Trump abusing young underage girls. He was not one of the many men who were in the house.
Starting point is 00:36:18 He wasn't hanging around. And there are several men who really were, who she knew well. There were others who would come in one or two times. But Donald Trump is not implicated in the book. I mean, I think what's important to say there is that the reason of Donald Trump's desire to release the Epstein files was so important to Virginia and others is that, again, these women had been told for years that they were not worth listening to. They had been, had a, Epstein had a sweetheart deal made behind their backs. They were not informed. and he was allowed to theoretically be imprisoned in Florida,
Starting point is 00:37:01 but also leave during the day during his prison sentence and abuse young girls while he was theoretically being incarcerated. I mean, who's heard of this kind of thing? You and I wouldn't get that treatment. I mean, it's absolutely mind-boggling that it was allowed to happen. But that's, I mean, we also need to make clear in the book that there's one credible death threat that Virginia Juffray received. The FBI were very worried about it.
Starting point is 00:37:27 they took it seriously. There were mysterious episodes when strange cars would drive up to her home and their headlights would be on full beam blasting into the house last thing at night. She felt extraordinarily vulnerable, didn't she? She was made to feel that way again. Was she right to be frightened, do you think? Oh, absolutely. This wasn't imagined paranoia.
Starting point is 00:37:50 As you say, the FBI alerted the family at one point that there was a credible death threat against Virginia. his life. As you say, there were these very frightening incidents. She was home alone one night with her three kids sleeping, and there was a car right outside the front door aiming the headlights in. She got her dog, a big dog that they had at the time. She got the gun that she had specifically gotten for this purpose, and she just stood at the door and hoped they weren't going to come in, and they ultimately left. But this was a constant thing. And beyond that, you know, any victim weighs the costs of coming forward. And on the plus side, you're going to hold your abuser to account
Starting point is 00:38:35 and you're going to maybe make the world a better place and teach other people. We should all be standing up against this kind of behavior. We should all be saying, no, it's not okay for wealthy people to treat poor people this way. We should all be doing that. So obviously, that sounds great, but here's what you lose. You lose your privacy completely. You are endangered personally and She did have people who had made clear to her that she better be quiet or else. So, and whether that was physical threats or threats of keeping her in court for the rest of her life. We know, too, that Prince Andrews people, whoever they might be, hired internet trolls to have a go at her. So they were part of it too.
Starting point is 00:39:19 And I just think it's so important that people understand that there is a massive price to be paid for speaking up. And in the end, Virginia, the poor soul simply couldn't tolerate it anymore. And I just, I don't know where we go from here, really. I mean, how can we make her efforts worth it? What would you like to happen now? What I will just say, it would devastate Virginia if the takeaway from this book is, you know, don't stand up because it's bad. Her goal for this book was to help other survivors of sexual abuse, be they male or female, not just Maxwell and Epstein victims, anyone who has been coerced into having sex against their will with anyone at any point in their lives. And there are a lot of us out there.
Starting point is 00:40:13 You know, most people have never told another soul, but a lot of people have had that experience. And her goal was to say to those people through this book, I see you, I am you. And I understand the shame that you feel, that you shouldn't feel. And I understand how hard it is to move through the day sometimes, how hard it is to get up in the morning, because I'm going to show you how hard it is for me, even now, even though I'm well known and I've won settlements.
Starting point is 00:40:41 I want you to feel less alone. And if she ends the book this way, you know, If one person feels less alone, this book is a success. So that's the first thing I would say. The second thing I would say is, you know, obviously we're doing a lot of interviews right now and a lot of the worst things that she experienced are being discussed for good reason because they're abominable and we should all be angry about it. But this isn't just a catalog of horrors.
Starting point is 00:41:11 It's not just a list of names. It's a portrait of an entire complex person. It's her highs and her lows, and you also see her coping and all of her different strategies that she had worked hard to have. In some ways, the biggest triumph for this person is that she is able to love again, that she's able to trust again, and that she had a family. She has three beautiful kids who she loved out of her mind. She loved listening to music, and there's a lot of music in the book. So you have, and she also knew this was going to be a very difficult reading experience. So there are times we turn directly to the reader and we say, hey, look, this is a lot.
Starting point is 00:41:57 I'm glad you mentioned that because I needed to hear that quite early on in the book. There is a plea in Virginia's voice saying you're probably feeling I've read enough now. I can't take it anymore. But please keep going. And I guess that's why it's so important, Amy, that you are doing such a great job of talking about this book. Can I just ask about your own feelings as to your own vulnerability? I mean, are you concerned that clearly people wanted to put the frighteners on Virginia? Do you think people want you to shut up?
Starting point is 00:42:30 I'm sure there are people who would like me to shut up. I mean, I've taken precautions. Certainly, I'm keeping my eyes open. But the book is out there. You know, silencing me in whatever way that might happen. won't silence it. Virginia's voice now lives on, and that is one of the real triumphs of the book. I'm proud to have been involved in it. I am honored to be speaking on her behalf. I wish she was talking to you right now. This is her triumph. I was her helpmate in getting it done. But
Starting point is 00:43:14 But it's important. And I guess what I would say is victims out there don't stop coming forward if you can. And I'm not going to be quiet. You're not going to be quiet. We all need to be talking about this. What's going on in our culture? Globally, that treats women as less than. And that is alive and well. Didn't die with Epstein. Amy Wallace, the journalist who helped Virginia Dufre write her memoir Nobody's Girl which is published
Starting point is 00:43:46 in the UK today as I said right at the beginning of the podcast it's tough stuff it's not an easy read but it's just a scandal that everyone should be aware of and you just hope
Starting point is 00:43:59 for Virginia's sake that change happens proper change happens as a result of her courage and that some of these dreadful people eventually face really, I mean, face justice, let's just hope that happens because powerful men have been getting away
Starting point is 00:44:19 with this dreadful sort of activity for, well, probably for all time, but at some point it should end and maybe this is the start of it. Thank you very much for listening and very much hope we'll be back tomorrow. Congratulations. You've staggered somehow to the end of another off-air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do it live, every day, Monday to Thursday, 2 till 4 on Times radio. The jeopardy is off the scale. And if you listen to this, you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online on DAB or on the free Times Radio app. Offair is produced by Eve Salisbury and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler.
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