Off Air... with Jane and Fi - What I'd do if I were you love...

Episode Date: February 20, 2025

Jane² convene for the final time ahead of Fi's return next week, discussing Mulkerrins' former hatred for spring and Garvey's past life as a strict disciplinarian. Jane G also catches up with Sophie Oliver, director of the Boyzone documentaries 'No Matter What'. The next book club pick has been announced! 'Eight Months on Ghazzah Street' is by Hilary Mantel. If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] Follow us on Instagram! @janeandfi Assistant Producer: Hannah Quinn Podcast Producer: Eve Salusbury Executive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Has any woman ever gone up to a man and said, what's the problem, Dave? Cheer up, Dave, it might never happen. Give us a smile. For just one pound a month for six months, you can enjoy unlimited digital access to the Times and Sunday Times when you subscribe with Google. Stay well informed on news, politics, business, culture and sport, wherever you are, with the latest stories and live updates on the Times app and website.

Don't miss out. Visit thetimes.com forward slash subscribe with Google to claim your offer today. 18 plus new customers only. Offer ends midnight April the 14th. T's and C's apply. April's one of my favourite months. Is it? I like it. I like a bit of May. What do you like about April? Possibilities. Oh that's true. When I was young I used to hate the spring. It's very dark. I mean I used to wear a lot of Doc Martens.

Welcome to Orphea. The Jane's reunited after the other Jane had to be in a little garrot yesterday and what was it you just said about spring? You hated it because... When I was young I just didn't get the point of spring. I know. I was definitely a quite truculent teenager. Did you write lots of very bleak poetry? I know, I mean I was definitely a quite truculent teenager. Did you write lots of very bleak poetry? No, no, I wasn't even that committed. Just listened to a lot of indie music, wore a lot of Doc Martens. But yeah, I didn't see the point of spring. I just thought, just get

me to summer. Now, now that I'm firmly middle aged, I do really love spring, like you say, possibilities, that sort of feeling when you get a little bit of spring sunshine like we had the other day, you just think, oh, it's coming. The blossom. Yeah. Bleakness is over. Well, it's not quite. No. In fact, not if you look beyond the UK to foreign shores. I was just talking weather-wise rather than just depressing state of the world. Thanks for bringing us down. Yes, sorry. Well, I can always be relied upon to do that. Our guest today is Sophie Oliver, who is the director of three really interesting, I think you've seen these two documentaries about the Irish boy band

who became a vocal harmony group, Boyzone. And I was just saying that if you told me that I'd be moved by a documentary or documentaries about Boyzone, I wouldn't have believed you. But it's really sad, isn't it? It's really sad and also funny and heartwarming and there's so much original footage in it. Yeah, it's a great watch, a huge, brilliant great watch. Well, more about that later on and just to say I'm looking for comfort. Did anybody else watch all of series six of Unforgotten and feel just a bit boggled by the final episode? We can't do spoilers but there

will be someone hopefully over the course of the next couple of days will finish all of series six of Unforgotten. Please email if you think, like I do, that I'm just not sure what happened would have happened in real life. That's all I'm saying. Jane and Fiat Times.radio. Have you started watching The White Lotus yet, season three? No, because I haven't watched season one.

Fair enough. That's a big no then. I'm going to start Robert De Niro as the retired American president brought back to stave off the after effects of a cyber attack on Netflix. Zero Day. Yeah have you seen that? Not yet. Will that be on the Mulcairn's agenda? Yes. As the draft, as the wind howls around. I'll be sitting there my seven layers shivering over my laptop. You know I don't have a telly either so I watch everything on my laptop. I don't okay. Why don don't have a telly either so I watch everything on my laptop. I don't, okay. I'll be probably in bed.

Why don't you have a telly? I'm just not, I'm not in enough to warrant one. You're so young. It's just incredible. You know what, because that is a really, people I have talked about my telly and I've only recently invested in a larger screen as regular listeners will know. I couldn't, although I don't watch much telly, I couldn't be without one. I couldn't watch a proper show on a laptop. That's really weird. Laptop watching is for work, not for pleasure. It's not a group activity. It's difficult to do with others. So I tend to watch things

solo. But that's fine. Everyone can have their own laptop if they want. Yeah, it's just, I just don't, I don't like how tellies look. And so- Would you keep it in a cupboard? Maybe then I'd have to get a cupboard. What do you mean? You don't like spring, because you can see the point.

And you don't like how- I love spring now. You don't like how tellies look. No. And the really big ones that people sort of hang in the wall. In my old flat in London, my first flat that I ever bought, one of the reasons I really liked it was it had these beautiful bookshelves that the previous owners had had made. And they were so nice in this sort of alcove and I did at the time

have Sky TV and a man came round to fix my dish because it was so long ago and he said you know what I do love is Allah but what I would do is I would just carve out, get rid of those shelves and then mount a massive blue last screen telly. And I said, well actually, one of the reasons I bought her apart from the exposed brick was actually the bookshelves. I went to Cambridge, I don't know if you know, I was the editor of Varsity, it's Mark Kerrins, Jane Markerins. Oh, you never let that one go. No, no, no, I think we should have, oh you won't be here which is a shame, although

I'm very much looking forward to seeing Young Fee next week, that whole what I do love, what I do if I were you love. Oh yeah, what I do if I were you love. We should have that. So if you've got anything to add to the conversation what I do if I were you love, you know what you can do, you can email Jane and Fee at times.radio because we've all had that little bit of advice haven't't we, from a well-meaning-ish, usually man who comes round and just wants you to, you know, wants your life to be a bit better. Yeah, or for you to pay them to do something, usually. That may make your life better.

Arguably. In their opinion. Yeah. Now, yesterday on the radio programme, I was talking about age discrimination being the last discrimination that's still acceptable. I mean it's a wider conversation about pitting the generations against each other, would you rather be 20 or 85 at the moment? And it's actually quite a tough question to answer, quite honestly. But this assumption that every pensioner is wealthy is something that really

gets on people's nerves. And I got a, I'm still thinking about the WhatsApp I got just about 10 to 4 yesterday afternoon from a listener called Bridget who said, look, I'm 63, I'm out of work, I'm desperate for a job, I'm living on benefits, it is absolutely no life at all, it's 800 quid a month in benefits and then my rent, her rent was over 600 quid. So she's, I think she said I rent was 625 quid, which I can well believe by the way. So you're looking to live a life on less than 200 quid a month. And I appreciate that Bridget at the age of 63 is probably not alone. So I just want, I just wanted to mention that that not every pensioner is on a cruise. And actually, James has emailed to say,

I've worked all my life, I still am, I'm nearly 62. Due to circumstances, I've outlived two wives, I've now married again, I've moved house five times, I've still got a mortgage, it'll be with me until I'm 66. Profits from houses we've given to kids for cars, weddings, honeymoons, deposits for their own homes, or just one-off payments. Now the bank of mum and dad is shut. We are now spending what we're earning going on holidays that we couldn't when the kids were younger. Yes, mainly cruising. We've told

the kids that when we die there'll be no money left, but they can have the house. I honestly think we've been generous enough. We are nearly skint now. All the best, James. Right, James, you and your partner, you enjoy your cruises. And it does sound to me like James has done his bit. It is such an interesting assumption that I think some people have come to. This idea that I was listening to something about this on possibly this radio station. I obviously don't listen to any others. My ears are contractually obliged. Just to say, Times Radio, it's free on the Times Radio app. You just get it from your app

store. Or you can DAB it. Yeah, or you can listen on DAB. Just tell your speaker to play it. I just find the app so reliable. Yeah, absolutely. I used my app last night to listen to your wonderful interview with James Graham. Oh did you? Well he's a mate of yours, wasn't he? We're allowed to say that you know him. Oh Jane, what's the matter with her? Right, okay, now I really liked him and I actually think I had this idea that he should do, my idea, partly his idea, to do a musical about the Luddites. He didn't really seem to go for it,

but surely it's possible. Yeah, he's always a bit muted in his excitement. Oh, I see. So he's actually, as we speak, he's already written the first act. Yeah, probably has actually, because he has an extraordinary work output. Yeah, it did indicate that. You put a load of washing on and he's written a three act play. Yeah, but I was just thinking that in the light of all our fears, some legitimate fears about what AI might mean for us, I would

have thought it's time to think again about the Luddites, let's learn more about them and what they were worried about and why. Get that commissioned. Yeah, absolutely. On a related age note, we were talking about the story in the Times earlier this week about whether 50 is too old to ski, when you should hang up your salopettes and we've had quite a few emails in about this. Lynn says, have to write in this half term week about your skiing conversation. I'm lucky to be an English teacher in France and have a two week February holiday. Last week at the ripe old age of 55, I spent a week with two of my four kids aged 20 and 26. I had a bad skiing accident in 2019.

Sorry to hear this Lynn. When someone skied into me and broke my leg, leaving me off my feet for 12 weeks. I honestly thought I'd never ski again but with the help of my kids I did get back on the slopes. As long as I can go to the slopes with my kids I plan to share that unique mountain experience with them. This week a less risky week in my granny role with my 28 year old daughter and two young

grandchildren at my mum's in Woodstock. But both weeks will give me the energy to go back to my teaching role next week. There is no age, says Lynne, for family fun experiences. We need to keep doing what we can while we can." Agreed. And Sally in Christchurch says, we'd just like to say that over here, the skiers I know at Mount Hut near Christchurch are happily looking forward to getting their free lift passes at 75. Really? Three years to go for me and to continue enjoying the skiing just as we always have. Yes of course none of us want injuries but neither do we want to give up something that is so exhilarating, fun and good for us. I was actually quite shocked says Sally to see and hear discussion about what age to give up roll on next ski season

I did not know that so a free ski pass A free ski pass isn't that wonderful At 75 yeah that really knocks into a cocked hat my relatively new ability to be able to traverse London free of charge Yeah, actually I do wonder about that because I'm very conscious that I could pay for my travel But I don't because I'm 60 now and I don't know. You pay taxes your whole life? I don't pay taxes, no it's not required if you're an entertainer at least that's what my accountant's know that's absolutely not what my accountant has told me nor do I consider myself an entertainer. Right we had a picture an

alarming image earlier in the week of a terrible cup of tea purchased at the Royal Horticultural Society Garden in Wisley. I expected better. I really would have expected better. It was so lacking in the robust qualities that I might have expected of a brew at such an establishment. Every time, says Patricia, I experience care at Kidaminstah Hospital, I find myself subsequently contacting them to give positive feedback, and a recent procedure was absolutely no exception. Every aspect of it was first class. Well, I'm really glad to hear that, Patricia. Prior to the procedure, I had been offered

the chance to have a hot drink afterwards, and I was questioned as to how I liked my tea My stock answer to this question is builders, please with no sugar I had to smile to myself when the tea duly arrived a very very small teacup on a saucer Containing two bags in the hot water a little strong, but it was so so kind How many five gold stars but it to Kidiminster Hospital. So actually, well done. That's a hospital in Worcestershire. I know Kidiminster, lots of roundabouts in Kiddy,

once the home of the thriving carpet industry. Oh, yes, of course. But I'm not sure it still is. There are also some other stories that are associated with Kidiminster, which I probably won't mention now. But I do think that the mark of, it's just the remembering that after the procedure she'd asked for strong tea and okay maybe two bags in the tiny cup was possibly going a bit OTT, but... Let's swear on the side of caution, make it really strong. It was an attempt and Patricia I'm glad it went down well with you.

Excellent. I know that we have to, I have to do some performative whistling at the end of this because I couldn't manage yesterday. You really were hopeless. Well I did it twice but you just couldn't hear me. It was obviously so cold, something to do with the atmospheric temperatures. No, it was to do with the bizarre high standards News UK sets for its microphones. I know. I just, I really.

I wasn't allowed to catcall or wolf whistle. Anyway... Consider some of the testosterone pumped into microphones at talk sport. The fact that you couldn't wolf whistle. Wash them after they're so covered in it. Well, that's what I mean. Poor little Jane in Brighton, not able to wolf whistle. Not even able to wolf whistle. Extraordinary. But I will be going for it later. And Jill has written in to say,

Good morning Jane and supply teacher Jane. I thought I'd share my whistling story with you both in the hope that I don't sound as weird as my friends thought I was. A few years ago, says Jill, I had a hip replacement and had to rest for a few weeks, which as a teacher in early years I decided to use to my advantage. I decided to learn two new skills while sitting with my legs up at 90 degrees. Skill one, learn how to do a smokey eye. Skill two, learn how to whistle with my fingers. Jill, I think you might be my soulmate because aside from wolf whistling, one of my other favourite things in life is a smokey eye. Yeah, I've never ever known how to put on eye makeup. Really?

I just do not know, partly because, well, I mean, I'm not alone and I was very short-sighted as a teenager, so I didn't have my sight corrected until I was well into my 40s. So I couldn't see what I was doing anyway. Right. So how do you manage it then? Why don't you give a quick smoky eyeshadow lesson? So, obviously we don't have any of the equipment. So you do eyeliner on the inside of the line, both upper and lower, so like make it quite

black inside, and then a grey or sometimes a navy blue on the socket, and then you blend it with your finger or a brush if you're fancy, and then some liquid eyeliner on the top, over the top and mascara. Jobs are gooden. Jobs are gooden. And as Jill said, my husband would often return from work to find me looking like I've been hitting the eye from removing and reapplying my smoky eye. I generally think I mostly go to parties looking like I've been punching the face but in quite

a good way. If there is a good way. If there is a good way. And Jill says, and she also, he would find her with very sore corners to her mouth from trying to perfect her finger whistling technique. She says, I am intrigued to know the other Jane's preferred technique please, as nearly 10 years later this is a skill I have not yet mastered. This doesn't really work on radio but it's the index finger and the middle finger yeah we could easily put this on Instagram so you know index yeah it's like that you know get

ready with me get ready to whistle with me yeah index finger and middle finger on both hands and then I sort of roll my tongue back and then put them under my tongue and close my mouth yeah it was just the only way I learned and it's just the way I've always done it. I can't do it with one hand, it has to be two hands. Tell me yesterday how you learned it. My dad, who used to coach rugby at a boarding school up north where I grew up, his under 16 rugby team, I used to go and sort of have to, you know, give my mum a break basically, was taking me off to do weekend activities.

Oh I see. And so I was, I spent a lot of time going to sort of rugby competitions with my dad's team and they said we need you to be our cheerleader on the touchline so they taught me how to whistle. Because you weren't in your thirties at this point. No, no. You were a child. No I was eight.

You were eight. Eight. Okay, right, yeah. In the back of the mini bus with my dad's rugby team. It was all very innocent Shane Garvey. No, I was eight. You were eight? Eight. Okay, right, yeah. In the back of the mini bus with my dad's rugby team. It was all very innocent. No, no, I'm sure it was. Of course it was. Sorry, carry on. But I think it is one of those skills that when you learn it when you're eight years

old, it's just instant and you know how to do it and then it's muscle memory for the rest of your life. I don't know that you can learn, it's a bit like skiing which I did learn to do when I was 30, not 8. I'm definitely better at whistling than skiing. Okay, I'll absolutely take your word for that. The whole rolling your tongue though, doesn't the human race divide into those people who can and those people who can't? You see, I can't. I'm rolling my tongue right now at Jane Garvey. It's not the greatest experience I've ever had.

But listen, I'll take what I can. Debbie says, this is the Debbie who takes you both to task over your use of I when you should say me. Right. Okay, Debbie, but you're always welcome as you know. On this occasion, though, I'm here not to moan, but to help to offer Jane who said that she will only use a couple of stalks of celery in Bolognese and then have to chuck the rest away. She doesn't like it raw. The solution which I discovered only recently, by the way, this is something I said on the radio rather than on the podcast, but the advice still applies. The solution which I discovered only recently is to buy a bag of frozen chopped onion, carrot and celery mix. Now, actually, I know this exists, but I have

never bought it. It is fantastic says Debbie, it saves so much time. Honestly they're often on special offer with three or four bags of frozen fruit or veg and you won't look back or chop an onion again because you can buy frozen chopped onion on its own. I genuinely, yeah, I must have seen it. Why I haven't bought it Debbie, I don't know. I've seen it in Waitrose. Well I have a Waitrose locally but I'm afraid it's not my closest so I don't go there. No, it is my closest which is why I go there. Okay, I remember when I was discovering

that my then student child had been to Waitrose and I was incandescent with rage. For God's sake! You're 20, you don't go to Waitrose. There was something she claimed she could only get there. I'm such a strict disciplinarian. She was terrified when I told her off, Jane. I can imagine, Jane. More smut, please, says Sarah Jane. I mean, if you insist. Now I'm gonna have to slightly censor this as I read it. How does she refer to Woman's Hour? I'm absolutely appalled. Hi there, Janes. You mentioned at the end of one of your pods this week that you'd be keen to hear what we the listeners thought about the occasional use of so-called smutty language.

We feckin' love it! says Sarah Jane, least I do. Having listened to you, JG, for donkey's years since the hour of Fanny, in fact, I dare you to read that out loud. Well, I haven't from it. She has. I much prefer hearing you sound so much more relaxed and quote unquote normal, both on the live show and especially on the pod. The Bants is what we tune in for. It's frankly refreshing to hear someone you've been listening to for years. Be free to just chill a bit and be

more themselves. I'd wager that your audience are not prude so carry on and flop out more of it says Sarah Jane. It's just good old unpretentious silly fun so more bollocks and beavers please. Yours with gratitude Sarah in Northern Norway. Thank you Sarah. Where in Northern Norway are you? That sounds absolutely delightful. My friend is skiing at the moment she's under 50 so she's still allowed. Good for her. She's in somewhere in northern Norway. It looks delightful, oh my god the light and they went dog sledding yesterday it looks incredible. They're having such a nice time. Yeah but they can't, can they easily access packets of frozen onion? Do you know what she probably took some with

her just to be on the safe side. Never been to Norway, I don't, I haven't been to any of the Nordic countries. Oh Which one has a view been to I've been to Sweden quite a lot Norway and Denmark. Oh, okay and of the three mmm, see I Probably like Sweden the most but I've been more places there. So Don't know and it's the one I've been to the most in summer as well. Okay. Yeah in that case

Yeah, it's chilly and it's chilly in winter up there. Um, is it? Yeah Right Caroline says yes Jane, I remember Kenny I'm glad somebody because I was beginning to think perhaps I was the only person alive, or maybe I just dreamt up the whole Kenny thing. Not only did they sing the wonderful The Bump, but also a song called Fancy Pants as well. And actually, she's so right, I had a picture of Jan Styles, their guitarist, on my wall. Do you remember the word swoon? Well, that's what I was doing for most of the 70s. Swooning! I'm now 62. Happy times. Your podcast is one of my evening habits and one I enjoy immensely. Kind regards, which is my usual sign off from Caroline. Thank you Caroline. Jan Styles. Yeah. He might be from Northern Norway, was he?

Yeah, well I don't know. Related to Harry? Yes, Harry's uncle. Harry's uncle! Actually, thinking about it, Harry Styles, it's a gift of a surname, isn't it? It really is. And it's his real name. Yes. It is his real name. But ironically, if his name had been Style, S-T-I-L-E, wouldn't have been the same, would it?

No, not at all. No. Another Caroline writes in on merch. Dear Jane and Fee, you were mentioning about producing some merch and you thought maybe a jigsaw would work, which I think is a lovely idea. Listening to your letters last week, I thought there might be scope for a board game of sorts. I was thinking of phrases and how they might or might not be attributed to a certain gender. Probably would apply to heterosexual relationships, although I'm not sure about that, says Caroline. Someone would pick out a card and the group or individual would need to decide

if it should be on the male or female pile. I'm thinking trans non-binary listeners might not conform to the stereotypes, but I'm sure your listeners could contribute many useful phrases. To start us off, says Caroline, I was thinking, you're so bossy. Isn't it great that they changed the sheets? Oh, God. Oh, they cook. aren't you lucky. I'm guessing the little car is yours.

It's great that they help out with the childcare. This is one of my favourites. Gone. Are you going out in those shorts? You'd feel differently if you had children. Oh no, that's not one for the ages. No, absolutely. You should smile more, yeah.

Along with my all-time least favourite, cheer up love, might never happen. Yes. Yes, Caroline, I think that word bingo could be a source of rage, but also, you know, has togetherness. Has any woman ever gone up to a man and said, what's the problem Dave? Cheer up Dave, it might never happen. Give us a smile.

And why should anyone actually walk around the world grinning? It's like a nutter. Yeah, well ironically if you did do that, people would have you carted off. Particularly now. I just love that line about the Pope. I mean, I wish him the very best, but there was some press statement about him saying he's in good spirits and reading the newspapers. Oh God!

I'm sorry. Take them away from him! Yeah. One of those things is not true. Sophie Oliver is the director of No Matter What. Documentaries about the Irish boy band Boyzone. You'll remember them. Stephen, Shane, Mikey, Keith and Ronan. Well, officially I was too old for Boyzone, but I don't know.

I quite like them really. And they were brought together by the mercurial Louis Walsh, sold records by the absolute truckload. All 16 of their singles got into the UK top 5 and they were most definitely very cheesy indeed. But young girls loved them, particularly Stephen, who died in 2009 of a heart condition at the age of just 33. He was gay and the way he was outed back in the 1990s, which features in the documentary, is a pretty unpleasant reminder

of how things used to be. So the director Sophie Oliver told me what had made her want to make these programmes about Boyzone. I mean it's twofold. One obviously you know as a sort of 13 year old me would have been like mad to turn this opportunity down but also I think what I found, you know, as coming in as a director, what I found sort of fascinating about their story is that it kind of spoke to so many sort of bigger themes about fame and friendship and grief and all of those things. It wasn't just sort of purely, oh, let's make a documentary about a boy band. It kind of had more to it that really attracted me to the story.

Yes, you're right. There is an enormous amount in this. I mean, not least actually, the addiction to performing and wow, when you actually see from their perspective, the band's perspective, what it's like to stand in front of thousands of hyperventilating, screaming people, you're going to want more and more and more of it, aren't you? I mean it's hard to imagine but that level of kind of admiration and fans and just that world, you know, if you come from kind of they were teenagers when they started, you know, living in Dublin and suddenly the entire world has opened up to you, you know, the different countries they went to. You know, that must be like just such a mad experience for your brain and then how you sort

of navigate through that kind of your real life and friends and relationships. I think it's, personally, it's a double-edged sword. I do think fame is a double-edged sword. I think that comes through in the documentary. But yeah, that power of the crowd on the stage must be addictive. How did Boyzone get together, Sophie, or were they put together? Yeah, so they were put together. So Lou Walsh, who is sort of part of the series as well, and he was kind of not as well known as he is now at that point. So he was auditioning, you know, he'd seen Take That and saw the success of them. So he was auditioning in hundreds of sort of young men sort of looking for, for sort of talent and the

right look and the right feel. And so they didn't know each other before. I mean, they maybe sort of through sort of, you know, different areas kind of vaguely, but they didn't, they weren't friends before. So they were sort of manufactured in that way. And they were not from wealthy backgrounds at all, were they? No, no, not at all. You know, they all, you know, Shane sort of talks about, you know, his father was a mechanic and, you know, they all came from, you know, very humble beginnings, especially Stephen actually, you know, he came from part of Dublin that was really, really sort of challenging,

had a lot of poverty, and so he was kind of one of the very first people that sort of made a name for himself from the area that he was from in Dublin. Yeah, an incredibly, incredibly charismatic and beautiful young man. That's absolutely undeniable. So there was Stephen and Ronan, who was the blonde lead singer. And then there was Mikey, Shane and Keith. That's right, isn't it? That's right.

And ages, how young were they? So Ronan was about 16. He was the youngest sort of coming in and they sort of varied from between sort of 16, sort of 18, 19. Mikey wasn't actually in the original line up. There were two others that Louis got rid of and then Mikey came in, he was the oldest, he was in his early twenties. If you only know Louis Walsh through the prism of his relatively twinkly, benevolent presence

on TV talent shows, this is a very different Louis Walsh, isn't it? Just explain. Yeah, I mean, you know, the guys are really grateful for kind of his role and sort of the success that they had. But he also reflects, you know, that it's quite a challenging industry, and he reflects kind of the relationship with the press and, you know, how hard that can be. And I think sometimes that can be quite challenging to watch, but it's truthful and honest about you know how tough that industry was. Yeah, I hadn't really thought much about Louis Walsh if I'm honest. I was surprised by how unrepentant he appears to be. Do you agree?

You know, for everyone that knows Louis and we sort of obviously talked to lots of people about him, he is kind of unashamedly himself and I think he is very sort of honest about, you know, truthfully honest about, you know, who he is and that is kind of up to the audience to kind of take what they want from it. Yeah, I mean I've written down a quote from him, he does say towards the end of the documentaries, it wasn't perfect but it was perfect for me. So Boyzone made him a rich man presumably? Yeah I mean Boyzone was very successful and then he went on and had lots of success with Westlife before he kind of went on to the sort of TV stuff so obviously I don't know what his bank account is but he has been and is very successful yeah. I mean I've been a

journalist for long enough to know that there is a degree of cooperation between famous people and the media because it works both ways. It suits both sides. But what I didn't know was that people like Louis Walsh were capable of plane making things up. And in his case, it included a plane crash that he alleged Boyzone had escaped from, but the plane crash just never happened. Yes, I think they had a sort of emergency landing. I think he was one of those people that was, you know, looking for those, I guess, opportunities, you could maybe call it, to

kind of, you know, get the boys in the media. And that at that point was the way that they were marketing. But again, I think that's, it's hard. It's hard for the guys to kind of have these stories, some of them not true, in the papers. And I think actually Stephen's story, you know, his relationship with the press is probably the part of it that I think is sort of the most, most difficult. Yes, I was also struck by Stephen Gately was gay, and he was obviously in a boy band. He was in a, this is quite a while ago now as well, isn't and he was obviously in a boy band. He was in a, this is quite a while ago now as well, isn't it? He was in a slightly precarious position. Louis Walsh, to what degree did he help Stephen through this?

The hardest thing about this documentary was that we didn't have Stephen. We tried to make him sort of as present as possible. And I think all the guys were, all of the other members all sort of tried to protect him and do all of that stuff. You know, the intricate details of Louis and Stephen, you know, Stephen wasn't here to sort of talk about that. So I think it's complicated. I think he was, he was, he loved Stephen. I know Louis was, you know, loved Stephen. But I don't know the sort of

details behind the exact nature of their relationship, because know, loved Stephen, but I don't know the sort of details behind the exact nature of their relationship because unfortunately, Stephen's not here to talk about that. I suppose what I'm saying is I might have expected any grown man to be more sympathetic to what Stephen was going through than Louis appeared to be. But you seem to be telling me that actually, you know, obviously, these programmes are edited, you choose which bits to leave in. Was he kinder than he seems? I mean, everyone has different layers to them, don't they? And I think Louis was ruthless

in his way of getting the band in the papers, getting the band on stage on every TV show. And I think that was hard for the guys, but that doesn't necessarily mean that he didn't care for them at the same time so I think it's sort of complicated nuance part of their relationship. Yeah and I guess you would also say that they were making money and they were to some extent they must have been having the time of their lives flying all over the world, screaming fans probably wasn't the worst existence of someone who had started off with relatively low prospects? Yeah, I mean that is the thing about this is that they had these and I think they all talk about it really well, you know, they had these amazing experiences, you know,

they wouldn't have had if they weren't in the stand, you know, the places they went and all of that, but you know, they also very honest and I think that's what's kind of amazing about the documentary about how that affected them and their relationships to each other. You know, it took a strain on on them as people and kind of the friendships within the band as well. Yeah. And of course, there are egos because there always are. The lead singer was Ronan, but Stephen did quite a bit of the big vocal performances as well, didn't he? Yeah, exactly. So yeah, both of them. I mean, I think what I found really interesting is I never knew and hadn't remembered that actually Mikey was actually the lead singer in the very first track that they released, but then he released it in Ireland. And then it sort of, Louis sort of saw a bit more, okay, actually Ronan and Stephen

had the kind of look that he wanted, so he brought them forward. And so yeah, Ronan ultimately was the lead singer and then Stephen did a lot of the vocals as well. That the stuff around Stephen Gateley's outing is really uncomfortable. It just, it hasn't aged well, that whole homophobic nonsense that we all

just had to put up with not that long ago. I mean, I couldn't believe some of the stuff that was written about him. And what does come across brilliantly in the programmes is how supportive the other the guys in the band were. They really cared about him, didn't they? Yeah, they really, really did. And I think, you know, he was, you know, in his early 20s when this was going on. And I think you don't really realise, like, so, so young, and all the others are really young as well. And I think there was this fear, you know, what would be the reaction, you know, what would be the reaction for the band as a whole? What would be the reaction for Stephen?

And I think he'd feared it for so long. I think he really was absolutely terrified. And I think a lot of people spoke about it in the documentary, that almost like that sort of fear of that moment when it was all going to be out, you know, out there for the world was really hard for him to manage. But I think they kind of all stuck together. Would that happen now, do you think? In fact, would it be actually perfectly okay? In fact, I think it would be, wouldn't it, for a boy band to contain a

couple of members who actually said, Yeah, I'm gay as it happens. Yeah, I really do believe that. I mean, I, you know, we can't kind of gloss over the fact that, you know, there are lots of challenges, you know, for people that people face. But I do think that is part of, would there be a front page news about a boy band member being gay? I don't think that would warrant this sort of front page in the same way and such sort of tactics to get that story.

I think that is something that is different and I think we have moved on as a society in that way. The footage does just show repeatedly how much the camera loved Stephen and his death was how many years ago? So that was in 2009, so yeah, a little while ago that he passed. And the coverage of his death was actually as outrageous as all the stuff that had gone on around him being outed. Just explain what happened. Yeah so he was in Majorca with his husband at the time and

he died very unexpectedly and it wasn't immediately obvious what the cause of death was and so essentially that sort of frenzy, that wild frenzy that the press had to be the sort of first one to find out, you know, how did he die? And in that there was all this sort of speculation about his sort of sexuality pay apart, was there drugs? And I think that was something that was really important when we were making the documentary and sort of with with Stephen's family that actually we were able to show, you know, how his sister talks about this at one moment that really shocked me where some journalists broke into her parents

and Stephen parents house and took pictures of them while they were in bed. And like it was just intense, but he died of natural causes and that came out later. But since then, you know, the damage had been done you know the speculation. And the band I thought really touchingly kept him company the night before his funeral they sat around his coffin all night in a vigil and as they brilliantly describe in the documentary there was lots of laughter and really fond memories of his life and the times they'd had together but then I was really upset to discover that they fell out again after all this. Did that surprise you?

Yeah, that was actually part of the story that I really didn't know. I knew that they had sort of broken up in 2019, but I didn't quite understand when they're all together. They stay together in the band after Stephen died so that they could, you know, honor him. But actually, like over the years, kind of them being on the road together, I think they would all admit is kind of not the best thing for them and their friendship. And it's sort of, we sort of go into quite a lot of detail about when it all came to a head, just before they did their final performances. So is there an obvious villain? Within the band? Yeah.

No, I don't think so. I don't think there's an obvious villain. For me personally, I definitely don't think there's an obvious villain. I think, you know, they're all kind of extraordinary people. I've really kind of enjoyed getting to know them. And I think it's just, I don't think it's actually them as individuals, I think it's the world around them and that constantness of the travel and the performing and kind of what that does to them and their relationship. I think it's the external rather than kind of the internal dynamics.

Yeah well the implication is that basically because Ronan had to do all the heavy vocal lifting, the other three could just get drunk a lot. I mean that was certainly what I took from how it all fell apart finally. I think you know, I think he put it really really well in the series. It was that you know, it was the end you know and I don't think that was you know that was that was one incident. Yeah I think look Ronan did do a lot of the lead singing, I think others had different roles that they played within the band but I think you know they were all they were all part of what made up Boyzone. How many records did they shift Sophie? Well I think what we said it was it was around sort of 25 million but actually since the documentaries come out and the series has come out I've actually

seen that one of their albums has actually gone back into the chart so you never know it might be more now. So what are the chances the legend stage at Glastonbury, maybe next summer? No, seriously, what do you think? I think the series has done so well. And I think what it has shown is that actually there are a lot more people that kind of are boys owned bands than maybe we thought. And I think they were huge and they had such a big impact on people that I think people would love it.

Whether it will happen, I don't know, but I think it would really get the crowd going. Sophie Oliver, the director of those documentaries about Boyzone and about boy bands and actually about so much else, about tabloid culture as well and all kinds of prejudice and actually a really sweet tribute, and you'll remember this Jane about those programmes to male friendship I mean they they did when they weren't falling out which they did they also really looked after each other and they particularly looked out for Stephen. Definitely. Yeah. Definitely. Which I was really struck by I thought that was incredibly nice. Yeah I think there are lots and lots of takeaways from that documentary. Many of them are sad and heartwarming.

But another friend who came to see the screening that they had with me, who used to be in a band himself, said there's always a Ronan in every band. There has to be someone in charge. Anyway, it's true. There's always a Ronan. I mean, you know, just the one who's always going to be at the front, who gets all the girls and it's just hard not to be the Ronan, isn't it? I would, well, as I used to tell my patroller guides, someone has to be in charge.

Someone has to be. You're all blue tits, but I'm the leader of the blue tits. Yeah. But seriously, if you were in a band, would you be, what would you be? Would you be the lead singer? I mean, I think I'd probably refuse to be in it unless I was a lead singer, wouldn't I? Well, there we go. So we all know her type. Right. Jane, thank you very much for your company this week. Thank you for having me. And there's only one way we can end. I know. Which is with your wolf whistle, which didn't

work yesterday because of the... The climactic conditions. ...censorship imposed in the UK. JD Vance, we owe you a great deal. Thank you for pointing out how incredibly. It's a shadow ban. Yeah, I mean, yeah, we're just so, so fettered in this country. That's true. So should I demonstrate the setup?

Yes, please. So the setup is index finger on both hands and middle finger on both hands. And then kind of roll my tongue back and put it under. This is real how the sausages made stuff. Okay, are we ready? Yeah. There we are, it's as easy as that. Congratulations, you've staggered somehow to the end of another Off Air with Jane and

Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do do it live, every day, Monday to Thursday, 2-4pm on Times Radio. The jeopardy is off the scale, and if you listen to this you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online on DAB or on the free Times Radio app. Off Air is produced by Eve Salisbury and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler. Wealthsimple's Big Winter Bundle is our best match offer yet. Get a 2% match when you transfer over an eligible RRSP.

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