Off Air... with Jane and Fi - When fibre-maxxing meets portaloos... (with Sathnam Sanghera)

Episode Date: July 23, 2026

It's the good ship Fi and Eve steering you to the end of the week, but Jane should be back on Monday. Fi and Eve muse over big-bummed man knickers, frozen shoulders, (more) urinals, and the many joys of silent discos - both professional and amateur. Plus, Sathnam Sanghera discusses his new book 'Tonight the Music Seems So Loud: The Meaning of George Michael'. You can buy tickets for Fringe by the Sea: https://www.fringebythesea.com/off-air-with-jane-fi-and-special-guest-jan-ravens/ Our book club pick is a collection of short stories! 'Interpreter of Maladies' is by Jhumpa Lahiri.  You can check out our YouTube channel here: https://www.youtube.com/@OffAirWithJaneAndFi Our most asked about book is called 'The Later Years' by Peter Thornton. If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] Follow us on Instagram! @janeandfi Podcast Producers: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

A very good morning to everybody. We're recording this before midday. You're probably listening to it. In fact, you would be listening to it after midday. I wonder whether anybody does listen to this as a start to their day, Eve. I don't think it's got those kind of vibes, do you? Do you think it's a bit subdued? Yeah, I just don't.

I don't think it would be anybody's go-to at 7.45 a.m. No, and I take your point, but people do say they listen to it on their morning dog walk. Okay. It's not quite the same. We're not getting anyone out of bed. No, but that would be quite early. The idea of you on the dog walk might motivate them to get out of bed. But I don't know if they're waking up with you.

No. But you can let us know if you are. Don't wake up with me. I'm not sure many people would like to wake up with you. So, do you know what? There's a terrible, terrible link we can do there, isn't there? Wait me up before. Oh, you go, go.

Who's our guest to? Dave. It's not George Michael. No. But it is Satnam Sangerha, Times journalist, very good writer, and he's written a book about his relationship to George Michael. Is that right? It is, yeah. It's about the meaning of George Michael. It's called Tonight The Music Seems So Loud. And if you're a George Michael fan, it's a brilliant book. There is so much detail in it. And the schick is that he hugely influenced Satnam's life and was quite the role model to him because Satanam saw in George Michael the same slightly removed from the rest of society place. So he felt a kindred spirit there but God Almighty the detail in it is just amazing. There is so much stuff that I didn't realize it happened.

And the really weird thing Eve, as Satanam says at the beginning of the book, is that this is the only book about George Michael. Isn't that incredible? Really? And as he says, you know, there's somebody's written a whole book just about the lyrics of Eleanor Rigby. You know, there's so much out there in the music world about the great big icons of pop. And it just seems absurd that there isn't more about George Michael. And there really isn't. Isn't that weird? Yeah, that is weird.

Anyway, lots to talk to Satanam about. We haven't done that interview yet. So it'll come your way in about, I don't know, 15, 20 minutes of time. Shall we talk men's knickers? Please. Okay. Now, this comes in from Caroline, who says, I was dropping off to sleep whilst listening to the pot on Monday

when Fee mentioned that she would be sorting out my husband's knickers. I can... Sorry. I'm sure you can imagine the excitement and the anticipation along with the shot of adrenaline that left me wide awake waiting in anticipation for my email to be read out. It didn't happen. And neither did it happen on Tuesday, although by then I'd made the sensible decision

not to listen whilst dropping off to sleep. We're both waiting in eager anticipation for the solution to this problem. So, Caroline, apologies, our apologies. This happens all of the time and it must be very annoying and very frustrating. But here comes the original email. Can you ask the hive for help? My husband, who's not overweight, is struggling to find the right sort of knickers. In reality, he isn't, he's oblivious to the problem. That's a lovely marriage there for you. Now he's of a more mature

age and things are not as firm as they once had been. All the truck styles he wears give him an unflattering overhang. Now, if this was just written, there would be an asterisk over truck, and we're going to come back to that later. It's not a good look, and it means he can't wear anything fitted after I sent him back upstairs to change. Women have lots of choices,

and I've changed my knickers over the years, to be more flattering or less unflattering. Comfort, always being the primary factor, the G-string forever cast into the fires of hell. He's not so old that he needs to wear old men knickers, but something without a tight waistband would be get. would be better. Thank you for the great company. Right. So we're sending this out to the hive for help. Now, what's a truck style? Do you think? When I read that, I thought a truck style, that is intriguing.

I've been 57 years on the planet. I mean, it's not that I've seen an awful lot of men in pants, but enough to know my styles. And I couldn't identify the truck style at all. I thought maybe it was a knicker that had been specifically designed so you didn't get kind of bad chafing if you were driving for long periods of time, but that just seems so specific. So I honestly don't know. I just thought it was something that had a bit more room in the back. Oh. Interesting.

In the boot. Okay. So a powerful engine at the front. There's a room at the back. Eve, you should be. You should be. You should definitely think about designing men's pants. So the thing is that's.

it's a typo because Caroline then email back after she had email back to say I meant trunk, not truck, but I had a lot of fun thinking about it and so did Eve. So it's the trunk style. I thought it was a man with a big booty. So we're punting this one out to the hive. Why aren't the more choices of male knickers? And it's true, isn't it? It is true.

So you've got the Calvin Klein style. pant. They're quite tight. Quite tight, yep, and uplifting. And you've got the baggy boxer. Quite airy. Yeah, I don't, would you favour a boxer if you were a man? Well, they seem quite a bit too loose.

I'd get a bit nervous. And also they seem like they would bunch up under trousers. Very much so. I don't understand them at all. No, I don't know what I'd go forward, to be honest with you. No. And, but we have a choice of, I mean, heavens to Betsy, it's a confusing world out there

all the way from your other. thongs to your bikini to your runner ones and your anti-chafeing ones and all that kind of stuff. So Caroline, you're absolutely right. These poor men, they need our help very much. So let's embrace the hive's experience of the male pant, especially later in life when things aren't as firm as they once were. And the unflattering overhang has started to emerge. And God knows that happens to all of us. So Caroline, I hope that this assages, your adrenaline bumps and that we come up with some very good suggestions. And I think maybe that's our next merchandising as well. We designed the off-air with Jane and Fe and Eve truck pant.

What was it? In more ways than one. Lots of booty at the back. He's got a filthy mind. She looks very innocent. Melanie in Chichester is one of our very regular emailers and you've had a terrible time Melanie says I was knocked over by a stranger's dog in the park on Saturday morning it looks as if my leg has been fractured

and I'm currently in bed with a knee brace waiting to go for a CT scan this afternoon I feel sick to the stomach and just wanted to caution other members of the hive to be so careful because the owner concerned had no control and was miles away from their dog it just sided me full on the pictures of my knee joint

and the police are classifying it as an attack with injury I think it's just a case of giving everybody out walking a wide berth incidentally my dogs were on the lead and we were just walking along minding our own business that is absolutely awful Melanie and I really hope

that somebody does properly reprimand the dog owner responsible because dogs on the loose I mean that can just end in absolute disaster. It has ended in some disaster for you, but you know what I'm referring to. Sometimes it gets even worse than that, and it just shouldn't be allowed. And how, you know, you can't protect yourself against a great big dog running full pelt at you. And I hope that you've got the CT scan. I hope you've got the right treatment. And I hope it mends. But you can't

take your own dog for a walk now. You won't do anything wrong. Oh, that's really bad. Really, really bad. I've sent you in the direction, Eve, of some of our emailing topics. What would you like to start with? We will be returning to the urinal, just in case anyone thinks this is unfinished business. And I have one actually here, but we'll do that when we get to it. I better do this one from Sophie that's titled Record Breaking Eve. Hi, when you started talking about Eve breaking records, I seriously thought you were going to say it was for the number of holidays and trips away she's had this summer. Long time listener, frequent emailer. And I have to also just say, my boyfriend's mom.

Can you see your boyfriend's wife? Oh, that's brilliant. What's your boyfriend's mum called again? Sophie. Sophie? Okay, greeting Sophie. She sent the email in about the source pen lids. Right. But there's no email nepotism going on here.

No. You choose all the emails that are out. Yeah, and hand on heart, I can say I had absolutely no idea that Sophie was a relation to you. Just detail where you have been so far this year. I've been to, I'm still unsure, either Paxos or Paros. Yeah.

I've been to St. Marlowe in France. Where are you off to next week? I go to California tomorrow. Okay. And are there any other trips after that? I'm going to Turkey in August and Marseille in September. Well, I'm with Sophie. And you haven't even mentioned your bloody pirate weekend.

And Hastings last weekend. Okay. When you get to our age, a weekend in Hastings is a trip love. It's a very exciting holiday. It's not just something that you managed to do at the weekend. How old is your boyfriend's mum? Well, it's actually her birthday this week, but I don't want to speculate because I'm not 100% and I don't have offended her.

Is she as old as Jane and I? She's in her 60s. Okay, right, as old as Jane. Not me. I'm very youthful, very youthful, 57. Happy birthday, Sophie. Yeah. Huge happy birthdays, Sophie.

And feel free to contact us any time, anytime at all. Right, should we head into the urinal? Oh, God, can we not. When we started talking about this, it was almost in passing, but it's developed a life of its own. The more you think about them, the more you realise they're just extremely odd.

Leslie sends this in. You were talking about dolls' names last week. My sister had a doll that she called Andrew Phillips, despite it looking quite female, for some reason she named it after the small boy next door. Well, that's going to start a whole new thread, and we're delighted that it will. And this is the bit about the urinals.

When the female lues have been very busy and not very men have been present, I have occasionally used the men's lues instead of standing in a queue. The urinals are odd-looking things. Do you remember the story of the pisoie in Clock Marie? It's a very funny story. Now, even I had to look this on.

Because, Leslie, we don't remember the story of the Pissois de Clock-Marie. So here we go. We both googled it. and I'm going to provide you with an AI overview. Bear with me. The Pissois is the central catalyst in Gabriel Chevalier's 1934 satirical novel, Clock Marie.

Now, you say Marie, Merle, sorry, Clock Merle. Is that right? Clocker Merle. Clocker Merle. Clocker Merle. The M. Clotch, Closh, Closh, Merle. Let's go for it again.

in Gabriel Chevalier's 1934 satirical novel, Glouche-Mur. I'm going to leave all of that in that. Please do. The mayor installs this public urinal directly outside the village church, sparking an uproar between the pious traditionalists and the progressive anti-clericals that eventually escalates into a national political scandal. The fictional town of Glouche-Murl is based on the real-life

village of Vaughan-Bogelais in the Roan Department of France. Voembogele has fully embraced its literary fame, featuring a functioning highly photographed commemorative Pissois in the town square. The story has been adapted for the screen multiple times, most notably as the classic 1948 French film, is anyone still awake, directed by Pierre Chanel,

and a popular 1972 BBC TV comedy serial adapted by Golden and Simpson and narrated by Peter Eustinov. Right, that is the story of the Pissua in Closh Merle and there are a lot of people who hark back to the great days of cinema and comedy and say that we will never manage to repeat the creativity

Eve's had to go and shout at somebody outside. Who was it? It's our very own exec. Was it Rosie Cut there? Running her mouth right outside the studio. Oh, MG. Oh, MD. And she's been bumped up to special executive director news level today.

their authority to create a ruckus outside the studio. She's just basically having a chat. Yes, a big, a loud one. A loud chat, okay. So look, we're back with the Pesua in Klochmau. We just loved the fact, Leslie, that you thought that we would remember it, as if it was something massive that should be in all of our collective consciousness. It feels quite niche, but I'm all the better for knowing about it.

Okay. Do you feel that way? Not really. Not really. I mean, it just sounds, it sounds very odd. I mean, I might go and search out that movie. I'm not sure. I've still got season two of the pit to go.

It does seem a bit funny that the French have got a kind of culturally significant film about a urinal when actually their squatting looser horrendous. I think they should be spending

a bit more time on those. Would you agree? I do agree. I think you should take it up with someone. Next time I see Emmanuel, I'll look him eye to eye, and I can.

And we'll have that conversation. Parmesan knobs. Sandra says, Jane asked what was one to do with all of the leftover parmesan knobs. Here's what you can do with them. Store the leftovers in the freezer until you have enough to add to soup stocks. It adds umaminess. I've had that in minister only before. Really?

I would never, ever think to add a cheese to a soup. I mean, I might grate a bit on top. It's more just the rind. Oh. Sort of towards the end. And then you put it in and it diffuses into it. Okay. And then you've got to fish it out after, I think.

Oh, right. Okay. Fair enough. I ate all of the cinnamon bark in a curry that was served here in the canteen on Tuesday. And it's had repercussions. You get that quiet, chomping down on it. It's just, it's nicer when they take it out. We've had so many spooky coincidences. And one of them is that we've received an email about frozen shoulders.

And I spent most of last night talking about frozen shoulders with a lovely, lovely, who we see very, very rarely, actually, because they live the other side of the world. And as our greeting to each other, how are you? I've got a frozen shoulder. How are you? Oh, my God, I had one a couple of years ago. Yeah, and this one comes in from Sarah.

And we have talked about this already on the podcast. Always happy to talk about it again, though, because you make some very good points in your email, Sarah. You may have had emails about this already, but I couldn't tell feeling cross at the thought of so many midlife women getting steroid injections for frozen. I can test, I've failed at even. So many, you can leave that end,

so many midlife women getting steroid injections for frozen shoulder. I suffered with two when I was about 50, I'm now 61, various physio and rheumatologist appointments didn't help, and the steroid injections made no difference. It was agony and anyone who's suffering has my full sympathy. my nearing retirement age Rheumatology consultant shrugged his shoulders

well because he could Eve and discharge me telling me it was normal for women of my age once I discovered Louise Newsome's Instagram account and started doing my own research I went back to the GP, asked for HRT I'd previously been told I wasn't menopausal because I was still getting periods, give me strength

I didn't know the term perimenopause then and I don't think he did either he had to look up what to prescribe in a book. My shoulders started to resolve within a month or so of taking HRT along with multiple other symptoms. I hadn't even clock were linked, having suffered from it for over a year and a half. It boggles my mind that the rheumatologist

must have seen literally thousands of women of the same age and symptoms and not join the dots, the same for my similar age GP. Hopefully with the new age of social media, the message will get out more and younger doctors connect more so they recognise the symptoms. The day they start taking middle-aged women's health with the same seriousness as men's

will be a day of celebration and it's a long time coming. And so you say sorry for the rant, not a rant and absolutely no need to apologise. They're all really, really good points and there's just so much evidence now that frozen shoulders are in direct correlation to, not caused by, but in correlation to the menopause because it's about losing our kind of juiciness in our muscles and particularly the muscles surrounding very important joints. And I'm with you on this. I don't understand how it can have been

that so many male consultants would have seen hundreds and hundreds of women of the same age with the same symptoms. And also just not having been, shot putters or overarm tennis servers or anything that might be to do with the shoulder and wearing it out.

Just women have completely normal lives all pitching up with frozen shoulders that had happened at the same time. And it's not good enough to not have joined the dots. So let's get a massive great big Sharpie pen and all join them together now in the hope that we can just find a quicker solution

to it actually because that's the problem with phraise and shoulders they can last for years and they are incredibly unpleasant. So also, Sarah has just been away with a coach full of teenagers in northern France, Eve. Oof. Yeah, I think she's a teacher.

Either that. I hope so. Or you got on the wrong bus. The joys of the school trip says Sarah, happy to say they all came back safe and sound and it only took me two days to recover the ability to sleep and speak sensible sentences and not headcount everyone in sight.

I mean, absolute awards of the century go to teachers who are taking teenagers abroad on school trips. They're just so outnumbered. Yes, I mean, I think if we're lucky enough to have in our memory bank some of the teenage school trips that we went on, I'm just so sorry. I'm really, really sorry, particularly to Miss Appleby. and just like I said took us on a school ski trip

I think to Andorra when we must have all been about 14 or 15 And she was such a lovely young woman And she was young She brought her mum with her You know, as the kind of treat for her mum to be on holiday I don't know what her mother must have made Kind of holiday

Of all of us Oh it's just ridiculous Absolutely ridiculous I was really sorry Probably quite helpful to the teachers As well to have her mum there When it all got a bit much Yes, yeah. Actually, I think probably most of the other girls were nice.

I'm just going to take some. It's just me. Anyway, there we go. We were lucky to go. So, 18 summers as well. Did you ever heard this expression? I've never heard that expression until you spoke about it on Monday, and I did find it quite sad. Yeah, it is. I think I've heard it in lyrics, actually.

I'm not sure anyone's ever kind of said it to me when I had kids. I know it's out there in the ether. But it is sad, actually, isn't it? And it's the 10 great summers left once you hit whatever at age, you know, somebody says it to you. And the 18 summers is when you have kids.

Camilla was really upset about it. I find the concept of 18 summers that you thankfully only brushed past earlier in the week. Pretty annoying. It seems to me this is entirely a construct of social media designed to make women who work feel guilty about not having every summer with their kids two weeks at most

plus a raft of unsatisfactory and expensive holiday camps around the edges and women who are at home feel guilty about perhaps finding the holiday longer and more tedious than they should it's not like women don't already have more than enough to feel guilty about and you say rant over as well

look there's just absolutely no judgment about the topics that you want to talk about on the podcast so they are never ranting Don't call it that. It's just us expressing our opinions. I think you make two excellent points there, Camilla. And that long, long, long school holiday, I mean, the idea that it is non-stop fun

from the middle of July until the beginning of September is really, really hard work with kids. I think I used to start worrying about it in January. I'll get Christmas out of the way. And then from January onwards. And of course it changes. when they're teenagers and they get a bit more independent. But if you are trying to juggle any kind of job as well,

and I was only working part-time when the kids were at primary school, it's you are thinking, okay, well, right, it's five weeks, six weeks, and we're going to be away for one week, and then this week to do and that week to do. It is problematic, and other countries handle it in a completely different way where their schools either really keep going and provide some kind of holiday camp activity. I know some primary schools have started to do that over here.

Or you have the summer camp thing where it's accepted that kids head off. But here, we're putting the puzzle together and it's not really matching up at the edges at all. So I hear you. There's also quite a lot about the Supergirl movie, which you don't want us to read out, Camilla, but I think we should. So could you get back in touch and just give us permission to say?

because it's not a movie that I'm going to go and see it. It's absolutely bloody awful. It's absolutely dreadful, dreadful. What other ones did I hand over to you? Should we talk silent discos? This comes in from Zoe. Dear Jane and Fee on the subject of silent discos, I've been to a few, some professionally.

I don't know. What's an amateur silent disclaim? Just go and listen to your own Spotify playlist in the corner over there. Let us know more about that. None at a festival, although I do go to festivals including Glasembury every year where I have seen them. The grandchildren's school hire out the headsets.

There are at least three channels, you don't all have to be dancing to the same song. You can change songs partway through, you can use your own streaming at home or wherever. I've been to parties for the grandchildren. I'm going to a silent disco next weekend for a daughter's 40th. It appeals to all ages. This one is being arranged professionally.

I think I see what she means now. She's outsourcing. her silent disco arrangements as opposed to putting one on herself. Right. I think. Okay. Okay. And you're a fan of the silent disco, aren't you? I am quite a fan of them. I like attending them because I think it's like Zoe said, it's really fun when you're flicking through the channels and then you find a really, really good song and you know your friends are going to love it and you're hitting them all on the arm trying to convince them to be on the same channel as you so you can dance together. And also in Brighton, the month of May is the Fringe Festival

and they do a silent disco through the streets of Brighton so you can be sat out enjoying the warmer evenings and a group of people will just go kind of like really really dancing past you and it makes me laugh every single time everyone gets into it so much

and do you try and guess what it is there dancing too so you ever get it well we'll never know but also some of them will be going to different tempos so they look completely disorganised but it's so much fun I think it's wonderful I just think it takes away the inhibition, doesn't it? Because you have got that fallback that somebody doesn't

know what you're listening to, so they can't judge the way that you're dancing. I think they're very liberating things, actually, really liberating. This one comes in. Have you attended one? I have attended, yes, I have. In fact, I've attended one at a festival. I'm very proud of that fact. Very, very proud indeed of that fact. It was the kind of festival where they also had a, I think the wellness area was bigger than the music area. So bad thing.

Yeah, that kind of thing. Lots of organic hay bales were available and a lot of kimchi, a lot of kimchi toppings. I think we've said this before, haven't we? But sometimes now, the kind of food trucks that

are available at festivals and the plethora of the fibre-maxing vegan alternatives, I think they do need to factor that in to the Portaloo allocation. Right. Agreed? Yeah.

I think the Portaloo's and the vegan generation, you need to get together and just have a chat. Here comes Joe. My lovely husband and I, or should that be me and my lovely husband? I don't know, you did an English degree.

Don't ask me. I still can't get it right and I know it tries some people mad But you've been given a choice there So that's a difficult position to be in Yeah I have to say of all of the things That I would get my knickers in a twist about

It's just not that We got married 10 years ago We had the reception at a lovely village pub That was perfect in every way Except for strict noise restrictions After 9.30pm Well after some pondering We hid upon the perfect solution

You guessed it, a silent disco We were both keen Glastonbury attendees in the past It seemed a perfect nod to this. Our wonderful DJ was up for the challenge, so we hired all of the equipment. I made a playlist of my favourite songs. My husband did the same.

On the night, once the noise restrictions kicked in, we handed out headphones. The DJ streamed our playlist to the two channels, red for mine, blue for my husbands. It was so fun watching our guest switch between our favourite songs, try to convince others to switch over, like Eve was saying, or dash around the dance fraud to find a group

also tuned into that playlist. It was a really incredible way to end our wedding day. In fact, I was so swept up in it that when my headphones stopped playing, I ran over to the DJ to say they weren't working, and he had to break the news to me that they were fine, but the night was over. That's absolutely lovely. I thought you'd like to hear this story of the fun silent disco.

Thank you for indulging me in my reminiscing. I'm a big fan of the pod, and I listen regularly. We now live in Klaun, Kowloona, B.C. Canada. My mum is also a listener. She was featured last year as the lady who made the epic trip to North Berwick Father Lifeboat. That was quite something, wasn't it? That was an amazing feat, yeah. And it's so nice that we both listen despite the distance. Well, Joe, it is always wonderful. We're always quite touched, actually, when we know that people are both listening and then it provides a chance to chat. You're probably quite rude about us, but we understand that's all part of the deal. But don't be too rude,

okay because it's calmer and it might come back. Can I just add something actually from the Pissois in whatever email because Leslie went on to say in her third paragraph my grandmother was in service to the royal family.

We're not going to let this go without many many more questions Leslie. Many of the staff used to travel with the family to Belmoral or Sandringham and when it was shooting season my grandmother said so many pheasants were brought to the kitchen. The staff got so fed up with preparing them. They used to stuff many of them into the boilers to get rid of them. Isn't that awful? Isn't that awful? So I'm going to keep that

because I'm going to read that to Jane. She's very, very, she's much more, she's the more monarchy adjacent member of this podcasting community. And I mean, I just think they're just, I mean, just as people, I'm sure they're great. But it's an institution. They're profligate wasters. And that's just a tiny example of it. I mean, the poor pheasants. They're not on the planet to be shot by somebody who inherited their land, their title and their wealth.

And then for it to be so unnecessary, they just shoved into a boiler to heat a great big clanky radiator in a room where somebody probably makes another person who's going to inherit lots of money, land and wealth. Shall we move on? Shall we move on to? Happy Thursday. Sorry. It has been quite a long hot summer.

No, I think you're quite right there. And it needed airing. But let's go on to George Michael. Might just be a bit dehydrated. Now, George Michael had a massive amount of hits as a solo artist. And with Wham, he sold over 150 million records. With Wham, he had a total takeover of the 1980s. he sang on four number one hits in 1984 alone.

He went on to become one of the world's most intriguing, talented, adored and targeted musical stars. And his was an important voice, the way he wrote his music, the way he talked about his sexuality, the way that he treated triumph and adversity. And he also had a cracking sense of humour, saying of his 1980s hairstyle,

Some days I made the cover of the tabloids. Some days Princess Dye made the covers of the tabloids. Some days, I think they just got us muddled up. Satnam Sangera absolutely loved George Michael and he's written a superbly detailed book about him called Tonight The Music Seems So Loud. Satnam, it's lovely to have you on the programme. Why did you love George Michael quite so much?

For me, I got into him in the 90s when almost no straight men around me were into him. And I think for me it was his sensitivity. He was a great role model for a sensitive teenager. You know, without going into the area of being a goth or Morrissey, he just seemed to have feelings when all the men around me had seemed to have no feelings whatsoever. I loved his voice as well.

I thought he had one of the best voices in history of pop. And do you know what? It was so lovely to actually hear his spoken voice. And we'll come back to that in a moment. But I'm interested in that kind of influence that he had on you. How did all of your other friends around you, treat your love of George Michael. General mockery within my family and amongst my friends.

I've noticed that the mockery has been consistent throughout my life, but it has declined. Like the piece I wrote for the Times about the book, there was only one abusive comment saying I was like a teenage girl, whereas when he died, I wrote an obituary, I'd say half the comments were quite abusive. And you mentioned that he had the same haircut as Princess Diana. And I think his reputation is a bit like Diana's in that we gave Diana and George a very hard time in their lives during their lifetimes when they are around.

But afterwards we can all recognise that actually they were pretty amazing, weren't they? Yeah. And I think it's a very good comparison to make actually because there was something in both of those figures where perhaps we thought, because they were in the public eye, that it was okay for all of us to think whatever we wanted to think about them. And of course, they were just trying to get on with their lives very much in the public eye. Yeah, and one of the stories I discovered for the book is that actually Diana was in love with George Michael basically and didn't. I don't think realized he was gay. And George thought about it and realized that actually if anything happened, it would be the biggest tabloid story in history and kind of distance himself from Diana. But that is an amazing possibility that could have happened.

It is, isn't it? Tell us a bit more about the book then. Why do we find you on a bus in North London and where does it take you? Well, I ended up trying to reconstruct George Markle's story in unconventional ways, I guess. I try to avoid the cliches. And one of the amazing things about George Markle is that he wrote Careless Whisper, one of the biggest pop songs of all time when he was just 17 on a bus whilst travelling to his evening job as a DJ at a very dodgy Greek restaurant in Northwood, in North London. So I went to that restaurant, which is now a used car cell room, but they still had the disco ball that the restaurant used to use, and they still remember him there. Right.

Well, so they should, and so they should. And tell us a little bit more about his family. They had come to this country. His dad had set up a restaurant. His dad didn't really want George to go into the music business, but he did give him a chance to prove that he might be able to, didn't he? Yeah, I mean, I think people forget that George Michael and Andrew Ridgeliely were both the child of migrants.

I mean, Andrew's father was Egyptian and Jewish and Yemeni, and George's father was Greek Cypriot. And like most immigrant fathers, he wanted his son to become an accountant or a doctor or do something professional and reliable. But he gave George a year to basically, or six months was, I think, to get his act together and give music a shot.

And amazingly, George did it. You know, before those six months were over, We forget how young George Michael was when he had his first hit and how he was hugely famous from the age of around 19. And how did he at first deal with all of that success and all of that fame? I mean, it is integral to the story that he had his friend. And Andrew Ritchie was his friend, wasn't he, by his side? They went through a bit of that together.

Yeah, I think initially he desperately wanted the fame, enjoyed it. But, I mean, there's a new Wham in China filming coming out in a few years. weeks time. And you can see in his face that actually maybe he's bitten off more than he can chew and maybe this global fame is not something he wants. And his fame became insane. I mean, at one point he had a fan living underneath his floorboards. He had women claiming that he'd fathered their children, which was obviously not true. You know, he had people like Princess Diana being starstruck by him. And if you think of all those people who were that famous at that time, Prince, Madonna and Michael Jackson, they all died pretty much for the same reasons,

apart for Madonna, you know. I think it's partly because that level of fame is unbearable. Yeah, we actually heard so much more about the very, very decent side of George's life after his death, didn't we? His extraordinary philanthropy, which was both very generous but very personal at the same time. Yeah, he was an incredible secret philanthropist. He gave away tens of millions of pounds, and we're still finding out now who he gave money to,

but almost always insisted that he wasn't given credit. And he has a famous lyric in praying for time where he complains of how charity has become a coat we wear twice a year. And I love that about him because so much charity giving nowadays is so show-offy, and he did it secretly. And even now, he's a state makes a huge amount of money, $53,000 a week, I think.

but I think a lot of it still goes to charity. Yeah. Would you say that he didn't actually mean to hide his sexuality? I was very interested to read in the book that actually a lot had been written pretty openly about what George Michael did and who George Michael spent his time with and the relationship that he had with Anselmo Faleppo.

But in a sense, you kind of convey the fact that people wanted to ignore it because they wanted to carry on a story that they were enjoying about George Michael. They didn't really want to accept George for who he was. Yeah, it's very complicated. We forget how blind we all were to just gay people in general, you know. All the people would think of now as always being out were not out. So Elton John was married. Kenny Everett had a wife. Freddie Mercury had a girlfriend. Pet Shop Boys weren't out. And there's a simple. reason for that in that the tabloids made it impossible to be in the public eye and to be gay, you know, and George had a choice, basically, whether for him to be successful and to be

acclaimed for his incredible talent or to be in the closet. And I think it was a very difficult choice for a very young man who was still trying to work out who he was. Yeah. But he didn't hide it, did he? He didn't marry somebody and, you know, pretend to live a life. He just didn't send a press release to the tabloids announcing it. Yeah, amazingly, he was cruising as a teenager, you know, and he was, and I find what I find remarkable is that even though he was given such a hard time for his, you know, ambiguous sexuality, he was campaigning on AIDS from a very early age when it was a very difficult time to do so. Every time he did it, the tabloids would ask, oh, have you got AIDS? Are you gay?

But he still carried on, and I think that in a quiet way, he was actually quite brave. Yeah. So later came his indiscretion in a public toilet in Los Angeles. Just remind us of what happened and some of the immediate reaction to it. Yeah, I mean, I find it remarkable. I mean, I think it wouldn't happen now. He wouldn't be treated like that by the press, partly because of the way he owned it. And I think you played that interview he did with CNN straight afterwards.

And he did an incredible thing in that he went on TV and said, you don't get to say if I'm humiliated or not. you know, I choose what I am ashamed of and I choose not to be ashamed. That was such a powerful message to give, not only to just to gay people, but people in general. What an amazing lesson to give to young people. And he then, sorry, and I was just going to say, he then followed it up with an absolute masterstroke, didn't he?

Because he put it in his music and he made what could either be. Well, in fact, it was. It was both a comedic but profound video. Yeah, outside. That's one of my favorite songs. And there's a line in it, you know, because he got community service for his act of indiscretion in that toilet. And one of the lines is,

I would service the community, but I already have you see. And he was so funny. And he called his greatest hits album at the time, Ladies and Gentlemen, after toilets. And he was just so funny about it. I think maybe that's why we were so shocked when he died because it'd gotten over so many, you know, potential PR disasters.

And he was always articulate and always funny until the end. Yeah, he referred to one of his less successful albums as Listen Without Purchasing, which is, if you know, George Michael's back catalogue is a very, very funny gag. One of your chapters is titled Someone with Some Kind of Integrity, in which you detail another thing that you had in common with him, which was hard talk. Now, I did read your description. your interview to Stephen Sacker, which you had found a little bit intimidating to be on the

receiving end of Stephen FACCA's journalism. Is that correct? It's nicer talking to you. Let's just say that. Well, Stephen's just a, he's a far more forensic journalist than I am. And so it would be different. But George Michael went on hard talk as well, didn't he? Yeah, it gets forgotten. But he was one of the first people to speak out publicly about the Iraq war. You know, and at the time, he was lamb busted. I mean, he was on the front page of the sun for being a coward. Salman Cowell called him a coward. No Gallagher said that how dare he speak about Iraq, given he didn't

tell anyone that he was gay? I mean, these are unbelievable comments. But now, I would say he's anti-Iraq activism has dated very well. I think everyone agrees that Iraq was a disaster. But he was far ahead. But there were so many issues that he spoke out on, like apartheid, apartheid, that now have dated incredibly well. And it's also unusual to have a pop star taking these positions. I mean, who does that now? I can't think of any pop stars except perhaps Dior Leeper, who speaks about politics in the same way as George Michael.

And is that because we live in different times? If George Michael was still alive now and was making political comments, how do you think that that would be regarded? I think he would still be doing it. I think now because of social media, it's so hard to keep everyone on board. So you end up having very bland pop stars like Ed Shearan. Okay. Ed is a very regular listener to Times Radio Satan.

Be very careful. Now, John says a guy who wrote a book about the gifted George Michael, who's hardly mentioned his music, that's probably my fault, actually, John, for not asking Satna more about the music. Sometimes it's difficult in an interview to just talk about music, but it's absolutely there in your book. I learnt so much about how George Michael made his music,

including how dexterous he was. Is it true, Satnam, that he played every single instrument on a different corner? Yes, and also on everything she wants. And also on last Christmas, his engineer famously asked to play the labels on last Christmas, and George said no. Because he was a perfectionist, a bit of a control freak.

I mean, he also famously auditioned 12 saxophone players for Careless Whisper, rejected them all, even though he couldn't play the saxophone himself. He spent 12 hours recording the vocals for kissing a fool. He spent six months recording Fast Love. And you think that is maybe excessive, but then you hear the different versions. And you're like, actually, you're right. There's something about the final version, which is special. And he had that, he had that ear.

And I don't think he got that credit. his lifetime. I think a lot of people thought, oh, this is just disposable pop music, probably written by someone else. But often he was doing absolutely everything. It's proved to be far from disposable, hasn't it? And in fact, there's a whole new generation who absolutely loved George Michael. Yeah, I mean, I did a talk at a North London school recently about the Empire, my other subject, and they asked me what I was writing, and I said, oh, yeah, I'm writing a book about George Michael. You won't know it. It's going to be called, and tonight. the music seems so loud.

And these were 10-year-olds, and they sang the song back to me because Keller Swispur is now a meme on TikTok. You know, as his father figure. Last Christmas is probably one of the most successful songs of all time. He has the highest hit rate in the history of the US Billboard 100, higher than the Beatles. I mean, eight number ones, 19 entries.

And I play this game when I walk around any shopping center in the world, and I count how long it is before I hear a wow more of George Michael's song. And it's never more than 40 minutes. Okay. I tell you what, you're a fun guy to hang out with sat there, right? Look, it's better than banging on about the British Empire anyway. Which is your favourite era of George Michael's music?

Oh, the 90s. I think lives with our prejudice. His voice was at its peak. His songwriting was incredible. And yeah, I mean, what a time. No one else was really into George, but you know what? I think it's dated quite well. I would agree with you there.

It seemed astonishing to me, Satnam, that as you detail at the beginning of your book, you're in a category of one as an author writing about George Michael. And I mean, given his cultural significance, aside from his musical back catalogue, why haven't more people written more about him? Yeah, it is weird.

I mean, you've got hundreds of books about Dylan Bowie, even Taylor Swift. And I think it's because he was a constant. contradictory guy. You know, he made disposable pop music at certain times, but he was critically acclaimed. He was in the closet, but then came out in the boldest way possible. He was self-deprecating, but also egotistical. He sued Sony, but then went back to Sony. He was a massive secret philanthropist, but also was a member of a certain number of tax avoidance schemes. So he's a very contradictory guy, and I think for that reason, I think critics have struggled to make sense of him.

But I think now, 10 years after his death, the world is ready to celebrate George Michael, hopefully. Yeah, I'll completely agree with you there. Where were you when you found out that here died? Oh, it's Christmas, wasn't it? You probably remember. Everyone remembers, I think. And it was Boxing Day. I remember he died on Christmas Day, but I had to make the Boxing Day lunch.

And I couldn't because I had to write a 3,000 word obituary for the Times. And I remember my girlfriend at the time and my family, giving me a bit of a hard time. But my mother didn't. My mother, who barely listens to pop music, I think moms have a way of knowing what matters. And she really understood how upset I was. And I think lots of us were really upset that day.

And I think a lot of us felt that we hadn't celebrated him enough in his lifetime. Yeah, I would be one of those, absolutely. Do you think that he was happy, Satnam? I think it's very hard to be happy when you're that famous. It's like being mentally ill. Plus he was a very sensitive boy. Plus, you have to hide who he was for long periods of his career. But the thing is, it gave us beautiful art.

I mean, so many of his songs are about wanting to be himself, about wanting to be free. He wrote two hit records called Freedom. It's pretty clear he was frustrated, but it gave us beautiful music. So we were lucky. Yeah. And if he had lived,

what do you think that he would have gone on to do musically? I torture myself about this as a fan, but I just think he had a highly developed sense of cringe about his back catalogue. So he never played his WAM records, really, apart from a couple of songs. I think if he'd lived, he'd be playing Glastonbury next year and he'd be playing Club Tropicana

and young guns. And he would be seeing the joy that inspired, not only in people of our generation, but also in a whole new generation of fans. And he would have learned to appreciate that in the way that Lionel Richie and Elton John have embraced their back catalogs. I would have loved to have seen that.

Yeah. Gosh, you're giving me tingles saying all of that because you're absolutely right. George Michael headline in Glastonbury. I mean, you can see it, can't you? You can absolutely see it. And as you've already said, everybody in the crowd from, you know, 10 to 100 would find that they knew all the words.

He is that kind of an artist, isn't he? Yeah, that's part of the reason why I think there's not been many serious books about him because he's kind of part of our culture. No one remembers when they first heard George Michael because it's just always around. He's still one of the most played artists on British radio. So therefore, we don't analyse him. Yeah. Well, you've done a great, great job.

It's an absolutely fascinating book. is packed full of detail. I didn't realise, and I won't give away too many details, that was it 70,000 people who had their Wammagetan completely ruined at Northampton FC because they played last Christmas over the Tannoy, that's the truth? Yeah, I hate Wammagetan. We should celebrate last Christmas. Greatest song ever written, I think.

Is it? Well, greatest Christmas song. Okay, greatest Christmas song. Yeah. I'll allow you that. Satnam Sangara. It's always lovely to talk to him. He is the best-selling author of Empireland,

and now we hope the best-selling author of tonight. The music seems so loud. Now, Jane is up in Liverpool, which is why you've had the good ship even feet for the last couple of days. We very much hope for her return on Monday. She just had to go up and make sure that her dad was okay. No panic, no huge alarm. But thank you for your emails on the subject.

So we hope to regroup in our fully formed triumvirate and do send some emails in over the weekend. Jane and Fee at times. dot radio. And I'm sorry again if we have royal listeners to the program. I didn't mean to pick on you. Congratulations. You've staggered somehow to the end of another off-air with Jane and Fee.

Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do do it live every day, Monday to Thursday, two till four on Times Radio. The jeopardy is off the scale. And if you listen to this, you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online on DAB or on the free Times Radio app.

Offair is produced by Eve Salisbury and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler.