Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Who called their child 'Sex Fruit'?! (with Jeffrey Archer)

Episode Date: September 25, 2023

It's a bit of a mixed bag today as Jane Mulkerrins sits in for the big interview but Fi is here for the bulk of the podcast! They chat worms of appreciation, banned baby names and Agent V. Plus, Jeffrey Archer joins Jane and Jane to discuss his new novel 'Traitors Gate'. If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] Follow us on Instagram! @janeandfi Assistant Producer: Eve Salusbury Times Radio Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

another week dawns on off-air and we're very grateful to you for your company and also can i just say brilliant emails about new potential book choices for the next book club so many how long do you think we should keep it open for suggestions before we make a choice um oh that's a good point i don't think we want to leave it too long because let's face it it can take me a while to to read the book especially it takes it actually takes you a while to get hold of the book jane yes i know but i've got as you know a crowded schedule yes any number of chickpea casseroles to make um yes i think we need to decide in the next, do you think by the end of next week?

I think by the end of this week. Or this week, okay. That's very strict, but probably no bad thing. So keep your choices, your ideas coming. I think the way I've just said that sentence is a good illustration of just how inept I've been as a broadcaster today. Have you?

But we all have bad days. I just couldn't get the words out. So, janeandfeeattimes.radio, if you have a book that you genuinely think other people would enjoy, or perhaps even better, a book that you think would make people think and maybe will divide opinion,

because I suppose, in a way, that's sort of what we're after. Yeah, what we're not after is a book that's been really, really drenched in publicity and reviews and critical acclaim recently. But more of Geoffrey Archer in a moment. Step off the beaten track just a tiny bit. Small Things Like These by Claire Keegan has come up quite a lot in the emails. Yes, and now that's by my bed, I think.

It's very short. It's very short. And I did see it on a Waterstones platter at the weekend. I thought, oh yeah, I'll take one of those. Would that be cheating though? Because it's tiny.

Because it's really very short. No, I don't think so at all. It has genuinely been recommended more than once in basically quite a big pile of emails. Is that what they call a novella? It may well be. Yeah. You see, I always think I couldn't write a novel,. Is that what they call a novella? It may well be. You see, I always think I couldn't write a novel,

but I could probably knock out a novella. Yes. But Geoffrey Archer claims to, sorry, claims, says, that he gets up every morning and writes between six and eight. And it doesn't matter if it's Christmas Day or New Year's Day. Well, I'll hear that in the interview. He just writes. And how many words does he bang out?

Oh, now, I think he said, I don't know whether I've been listening to my own radio programme now, I think he said 600 words. That's not bad. No, it's not bad at all. 300 words an hour. No, that's very slow, actually, isn't it? Or it might be 600 words in each.

Oh, I don't know, Fi. Sorry. So let's just do some quick maths. If it's 300 words an hour and there's 60 minutes in an hour, so how many words a minute? I don't know, but they're not just any old words. They're Geoffrey Archer words, so they carry a very special weight. Speaking of which, that Ken Follett book, how far have you got?

Well, not very far because you have taken charge of the interview. And can I just say that in our charge sheet for the week that we get sent on a Friday it quite clearly said Fee doesn't have to read this book Jane is doing the interview so I thought all right then I won't read the book so I'll do Rose Tremaine and have a bash at Matt Lucas oh he's cancelled has he yeah who have we got instead Kate Humble Kate Humble well I'll do Kate Humble and Rose Tremaine later in the week, and that gives you the joy of Ken Follett tonight. Well, I won't be able to finish.

It is 700 pages. But you love a long Ken Follett. I like a Follett. Yeah. Absolutely. I like a rummage through a Follett, and no mistake. And this one doesn't disappoint. Well, I'm sure none of them do.

That's why he's a glorious bestseller. What's the main theme, and what century is it in? Well, no, we're in the 18th century. And Britain is on the cusp of change. When has Britain not been on the cusp of change? I don't know. I think that's the golden age that no one has ever written a novel about. Britain is having a quiet time. Well, I suppose you could say that during the very, very long reign of Queen Victoria,

we might not have been on the cusp of change. Well, there was the Industrial Revolution at that point, wasn't there? Yeah. Or huge, no, maybe, oh God. Anyway, let's move on to other matters. Because, yeah, I'm just trying to work out when the Industrial Revolution started. The Spinning Jenny was, yes, actually this is the era covered by Armour of Light, Ken Follett's latest book.

OK. Yeah, it's another of his historical novels and it's set in that part of England that he always writes about and I think it's Kingsbridge and there's all sorts of... Where is that? Kind of the Midlands? It's sort of the Midlands but it's never really clear. Oxford is the only real place that's ever referenced. The Methodists are on the rise at this time

and they're regarded as a sort of force for good and they're anti-Anglican, the Anglican church. Honestly, it's actually very fascinating. It is, and there are some dynamic female characters. Do you know what? I had an English teacher once who said, if you ever put the word actually into a sentence? It's because actually it's not very good.

Yeah. But that's not why I put it into that sentence. OK. But look, we're not focusing. No. We're not focusing on Ken Follett until tomorrow. Focus on Follett will be tomorrow. Yeah. But we do have to talk about your lunch with him. And we'll do that during the interview if that's OK.

We'll explain what happened. Because I still think that the generosity of Agent V... It's incredible. ..in that scenario, and I hope Agent V is still listening to this podcast, but if you don't know what I'm talking about, tune in tomorrow. That's a trail, isn't it? I'll tell you what.

Yeah, keep them guessing. Superb. So, God, we've got so many emails over the weekend um can i just say hello and thank you to the people who have just made suggestions about migraines migraines what did we end up calling them we did ask the bloke who should know from the migraine migraine trust i can't remember i think he said migraine okay um because uh joannia and I hope I've pronounced that right, she suffered from migraines for 25 years, but she went to an osteopathist who pressed a special bit in her neck and therefore managed to take away a restricting blood bone area. Right. And her migraines have gone completely.

I mean, that, that's one of those miracle cures isn't it? Yes, that is. That's a bit ha ha ha hallelujah. And then there's a very nice one from a guy who says that he wears tinted blue spectacles and I have thought about doing those in the studio but I think you're just laughing. No I wouldn't. I seriously wouldn't.

Steve. Thank you Steve for that suggestion. So that could work. And they are And they stop headaches, really severe headaches developing, do they? Well, I think that's about the type of light that you get from screens. OK. So I think that's probably quite a good suggestion as well. So thank you for all of those. That's very kind, very thoughtful. And let's spread the word. And Anita has emailed about the interview with London Hughes. And she says, and I think this is fascinating, it's a real insight actually, I agree with her 100%. I'm not black, I am Polish, I'm a very white

woman but I totally understand her point. I've been living in England for almost two decades, been granted British citizenship but my life will always be a bit challenging in this country, which I do love and respect. There's always, well, we love Poles, they're hardworking, they're amazing, but as long as they work in the field or factory. As soon as we start climbing the ladder, English people aren't happy about it. You can feel it in the way that they speak to you, or for example, when they go for a drink and don't invite you. People try to convince everybody that they're not racist or bigots, but they would rather not have us close to them. Well, they can stay and pay taxes,

but not to speak their language or, God forbid, become successful. Our better cars, holidays, etc. are not appreciated, and that's quite obvious when you look at likes on your Facebook post from holidays. Sad, but who am I to judge? Polish people in Poland sadly aren't much better, but at least they don't create this image of being welcoming, tolerant and open like the British people who try to convince the whole world that that's what they're like. I am glad that London found her place and appreciation. Well done to her. I've still got a lovely farmhouse in Poland,

which I would never consider as my retirement place until a party I went to two months ago, where a rather drunken English woman said what she really thinks about immigrants and refugees, forgetting that thanks to us, her father can live in a home paid by taxpayers. I mentioned to her what you said about the cost of care in France and how children contribute to it if they like it or not, but it was like pouring fuel on the fire. Needless to say, I'm going to avoid any social gathering with her. I would like London to know that not only black people aren't always welcomed here, but also those white people who simply aren't English. I would like to repeat after Clive Myrie, somebody invited us here. Anita, thank you and um i'm really quite ashamed that people have been

horrible to you uh certainly that last uh drunken english woman at a party um is not she's to be pitied really because that's a horrible way to speak to anybody at a party um and i'm just sorry you've been through it and i think you know that is an insight. I'm white, British, and the truth is I don't know about racism as I live in Britain. I just don't really know about it. And I need to be schooled by those who do know about it. And I think what London said just about the kind of euphemisms that people have used in her professional life

to say why they don't want her on a programme and haven't given her an opportunity and haven't celebrated her in the same way that they have male white comics is really interesting. Because you hear that language, don't you? And it's not so overtly racist that it gets called out in the moment. But the great phrase that she used uh was uh what was it the audience won't get you which is such a weird uh i mean it takes it takes away the decision from the person saying it lumps it onto the audience it'll be the audience's fault yeah and we don't really know who that

audience is no we don't really know why they wouldn't like it but it's just a blanket kind of push you over their thing yeah so it was it was really good to hear all of London's thoughts not just the ones about Russell Brand so this one is about Russell Brand and it comes from Vicky and she just wanted to say that for her quite a few things have come up during the debate about male behavior in the 1990s and she said I watched Sally Rooney's Normal People a couple of years ago. The couple's first sexual encounter and the way they portrayed consent made me cry. Proper deep gasping sobs. I was shocked at my reaction. The level of kindness

and consideration by Connor in that moment made me realise that my very first encounters with men were just awful. But I thought that was the way it was. You had to go along with it. If a man wanted you, it was flattering. I should be grateful. Thankfully, I ended up marrying the most caring and thoughtful man, and we have three children. I've discussed consent with them all, sons and daughters,

at various times through their teenage years, and the message has stuck. But I'm glad at last this is all getting airtime. Of course it should have been called out in the 90s and early noughties. But there was just no sense of wrongdoing on the part of these men. They weren't rapists or monsters. They look normal, were intelligent, came from good homes and families. It was just so ingrained in them to treat women like this. It's like a horror film. I think women have been brainwashed and now slowly, but surely the brainwashing is wearing off. It's one of many emails that we've got about all the things

that people have been talking about with regards to Russell Brand. And I think, Jane, it's just made people rake up memories that even if they aren't really, really traumatic, they're just a bit painful, just quite disturbing. And they have. They've lain there in the silt for quite a long time now. And then people, not just women, end up revisiting their own reaction and then start to blame, don't blame yourself.

It was a different time. Maybe education is better now? I don't know. I thought that scene in Normal People was incredibly moving. Yeah, it was beautiful. It was really, really well done. And that would be, I mean, I think it is watched by lots of young people. That should be the gold standard of your first sexual encounter.

And they should show that in a, you know, whatever you want to call it these days, sex education class right at the beginning. Yeah, no, definitely. I'm sure they put a, I know that they put an enormous amount of thought into how they should do that i have not read the book no neither have i okay so i don't know whether it's exactly the same in the book okay no well i'm not going to be able to enlighten you there sister no well you haven't Normally you do Well I'm not so sure about that A little bit of a halt there

But that's why people like our podcast For its authenticity Well there is that, yes There has to be a reason why they like it We don't bloody know I thought you were going to say we don't like it No I like it I particularly like this from Heather

Who says I'm writing to you from my home in Dunedin. Oh, I love this one. In New Zealand. And actually, the first paragraph, there's a kind of Netflix series in the first paragraph. Heather says, I'm the sister of your recent correspondent, Clara from Brittany, who wrote to you about her Cindy doll

who lived with her daughter as a single mum in her cardboard box home that Clara had built for her. You might remember that our grandmother was very disapproving of this scandalous situation. However, given what we've since found out about what our grandmother herself got up to, I'll just say that people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. Right, we would quite like to know what Granny did without... Is it going to be too much, do you think? No. Might Granny be angry? Granny's still around, she might be cross?

Don't know. Well, if we receive an email that has Granny's sensitivities in mind, we'll be OK. OK, we're very sensitive here. So do let us know, Heather, if you can. Anyway, she says, I'm writing to you today about disallowed baby names in relation to the Australian journalist who named her baby Methamphetamine Rules. Here in New Zealand, we have quite strict rules about what names are

allowed. And every year, in fact, they publish a list of names that were not allowed. There are always names like King, Princess and Duke on the list, because names that might imply the child holds a title are disallowed. I actually think that's a bit unfair because, I mean, that whole business of titles is slightly absurd, isn't it? So why not just go for it? It seems a bit unfair. Anyway, she goes on to say second, third and fifth have also been disallowed,

presumably because they showed a lack of imagination. But some disallowed names show plenty of imagination in their alternative spelling, including justice with a y with a y why can't you call your child justice if you want to well i suppose because oh i see justice jones yes they might think they might think that you can rule over somebody uh there's another one majesty spelled t-e-i-G-H. That's dreadful. That's just Madge, basically, isn't it? And then Saint, S-A-Y-N-T.

Some names just defy any explanation, like anal. Well, yes. Sex fruit and fish and chips. Who called their child sex fruit? I don't know. But my all-time favourite disallowed baby's name is Tallulah Does the Hula from Hawaii. I like that.

I like that very much. If I'm ever blessed again, that'll be the name. Are you thinking that might happen? Well, you know. Well, I've just been in the presence of Geoffrey Archer, so you begin to believe that anything is possible. Heather, thank you very much. More of that sort of thing, please. Jane and Fee at Times

Talk Radio. Last one from me before we get to the excitement that is Geoffrey Archer comes from Amy, who says, my best friend Tracy and I thought you might enjoy this. We met over 25 years ago when we realised we were equally bored at a mother and toddler session at a local church. A common bond was formed

and we've since supported ourselves in the saddest and happiest of times. Tracy is one in a million we live quite a distance from each other and therefore look forward to once or twice a year finally getting organized to meet up tracy jumping on a train that usually breaks down from shropshire and me cursing at the price of high speed one from kent there was added further to this weekend's meet-up as in a random act of kindness, I'd ordered a copy of My Sister the Serial Killer for each of us with the brainwave that we could read it, listen to your podcast on Friday and exchange thoughts when we met up.

Roll on this Saturday when we both set off, each feeling smug that we'd finished the book in time. Predictably, Tracy's train broke down and I realised my earbuds had no charge so I couldn't listen to the podcast but we eventually met outside Kensington Palace, Adwood arranged. Cue Tracy in floods of laughter as she broke the news that I'd bought The Serial Killer's Sister by Alice Hunter, not my sister The Serial Killer by Iinka Braithwaite. How we fell off our smug I've read the book club book perch and dissolved into laughter

that returned repeatedly at different parts of the day. Thank you for your part in making our day so memorable. Kind regards. P.S. If at all possible and we meet the heady heights

of being read out, could it be in the first half of the programme in the nicest possible way? Tracey listens to your podcast as bedtime reading, so I often have to fill her in on the content of the second half. She just nods off?

She does, yes. Many of our very, very, very best bits are right at the end of the podcast. Well, I've always said that. Yeah, I'm going to hang on to that. Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. Stay till the very, very end. Because they've got all these funny things now, haven't they?

I mean, the man in charge of this radio station has now got a worm that he can show us. And it shows our popularity, doesn't it? The worm has turned. Yeah, it's a little worm that crawls up and down a screen and says whether or not you're performing well. If the worm turns off, then we're really in deep doo-doo. If the worm really, really burrows down, Jane.

This is the worm of appreciation, is it? It is. Okay. So don't let the worm stop moving before the end of the podcast. May your worm wiggle. Right till the very, very end. Here's a fella with a bit, still got a bit of wiggle in his worm. It's Geoffrey Archer.

Do you think we should just explain, Jane, because I'm not in this interview because I wasn't in on the show today so it's you and Jane Mulcairons I believe it was a flirty event between the pair of you and the Geoffrey I think that would be exaggerating I've already been accused today of quotes

always flirting with older men I mean honestly quotes well it wasn't me, no. It just isn't true. Quotes, how could that be, Jane? So I went to a funeral today, so I wasn't in on the programme. So you've done the programme with Jamal Kerens

and therefore the interview with Geoffrey Archer. So I'm just going to sit back and listen to the masterclass that is The Janes. OK. Thank you, Fi. Our big guest today was Geoffrey Archer. Jane Malkerins and I talked to him earlier and I asked Jane Malkerins if she thought he needed any kind of introduction. Maybe a short one. A short one. OK. International bestselling author. Thank you very much indeed. The blurb on the cover of his latest thriller, which is called Traitor's Gate,

says he has spent a lifetime at the heart of the British establishment. He's also been a bankrupt, he's been an MP, he's been to prison, and he's now a member of the House of Lords. Never been bankrupt. Never been bankrupt? No. Faced it, thank God, avoided it.

Right. Heavy debt, shall we say. Thank God. You were in heavy debt. Oh, yes, I was in debt for £400,000., avoided it. Right. Heavy debt, should we say. Thank God. Oh yes, I was in debt for £400,000. Yeah. Yeah. But Cain and Abel paid off that debt. And more,

I would imagine. Yeah, he keeps paying it from what we hear. Now, is it true that Cain and Abel, one of your novels, in case people don't know, is still selling by the truckload? I haven't had to work since writing Cain and Abel 44 years ago. It sells about a quarter of a million a year. Right.

It's in 119 countries in 47 languages. Yeah. In fact, I got the Vietnam, I got the Vietnamese figures this morning, 5,400 for the year. So, yeah, it doesn't stop. Come on, Vietnam. Big in Vietnam. Big in Vietnam.

Don't say it like that. No. Listen carefully, Jane. If you're lucky enough to be in 119 countries in 47 languages, that's what makes the difference. You can be number one in England. You can be number one in America. But it's whether you're going anywhere else.

Some countries, for example, some countries don't want anything to do with it. I can't do anything in Spain. I go to number one in Germany. If you could explain it. That is a weird one. Yeah, no, I can't with it. I can't do anything in Spain. I go to number one in Germany. If you could explain it. That is a weird one. Yeah, no, I can't explain it. Well, officially, Geoffrey, this is an interview. So we're going to plug on and I am going to ask you some questions. Really, Jane? I'm surprised after all these years in the business, you. Yes, I'm keeping going. Traitor's Gate is about an audacious plan to steal the crown jewels. You are sitting right now next to a copy of... The crown, the 1937 State Imperial Crown,

as worn by King Charles at the coronation. And it arose at the end of the first draft of Traitor's Gate that I realised that the reader wouldn't believe it if I couldn't prove that I could have a crown made of the same quality as the one you've seen on television. And so I went to the great Alan Gard, one of the great craftsmen in this country, and he spent a fortnight wondering whether he could do it. And actually, I'd like to hear your opinion, because in a vote last night, this versus the real crown, eight thought mine was the real crown, and two thought the real crown. And I asked why, and they said, it's more detailed than yours, but actually this has

got every detail in it. It got hold your breath the real thing has got 2 816 diamonds 117 sapphires yes 18 rubies 142 pearls and it took him 500 hours to make it and as we speak the real thing is not that far from where we're sitting. That's a good point. It's in the tower. You're right. It'll be miles as the crowd flows. You're quite right.

Yeah, that's rather exciting. So I've never seen the real one with my own eyes, but I did. You've seen it on television. I've seen it on television and I did test that one out on my own head earlier. And I will say it was quite heavy. You hit the secret. Exactly. Wait a minute, you thought this was heavy?

This is a big part of the book, right? It's about the weight of it. The key line in the book, the only line the Queen speaks, is when she's going into the House of Lords and she picks it up and she says to the Lord Chamberlain, no doubt there's a simple explanation. But I'd never put the real one on my head. Because they're the only two who realise it's not real.

We don't want to give too much of the plot away. Suffice to say, this is about a plan to steal the crown jewels. It's your usual breathless pace, lots going on. A few other sort of tangential plots as well. There's some art forgery. There's a lot to get your teeth around in this particular book um i wonder if you could just tell us the story of the member the retired member of the royal household that you say you met on a cruise who gave you the idea about the whole heist plot and possibly regretting it now. Mary and I went on, straight after Covid, we were invited by

Tors Hagen of the Viking line to join him on one of his cruises round, on one of his latest liners round the British Isles. And we, like you two would have been, we would have been locked up for nearly two years. So we were only too delighted. And I sat down next to this man or was it a woman and uh he or she said i've got the plot for your next story jeffrey and i thought you know that's okay if you're able to move on fairly quickly but i'm sitting down for dinner on a cruise and it gets worse he she said i can tell you how to steal the crown jewels and I thought, God, every school child knows that

the crown was stolen in 1671 by Colonel Blood he never even got out of the tower ah so I sat back, it was only the soup course, so I sat back and thought, I've got to listen within three minutes he, she told me how it could be done.

I went back to bed. I didn't sleep that night because I could see how it could be done, but also the amount of research that would have to be done in order for the reader to say, I believe that, Geoffrey, because if the reader dismisses it, you've got no story. So the research immediately he, she had told me was endless. It was the most research I've ever done for any book. Do we know, by the way, why Colonel Blood didn't really suffer for that crime?

It's all very peculiar, wasn't it? He was a cunning blighter. And he got... It's very interesting go and go back to research i decided to ask the senior history professor at cambridge university for that century right how he got away with it and he said we don't know jeffrey we do know he saw the king and we don't know why the king agreed to see him. We think, and we're only guessing, and you know what genuinely clever academics, they never make anything up,

and they always say, I don't know if they don't know. And this very clever man said, I don't know, Geoffrey, if you're asking me to guess, I think he said to the king when they were on their own, I know every one of your enemies and I'll spy for you and tell you who they are. That was King Charles II. King Charles I, sorry.

And that's how he got away with it, we think. Right. It's Charles II, isn't it? Charles II, that's right. Sorry, I apologise. Geoffrey, this is... Charles II, that's right. Sorry. I apologise. Geoffrey, this is the sixth book, I'm right in thinking, in this series.

In the series. The William Warwick series. And you've got two more that you're doing in this series. Well, it's very kind of you to mention that, Jane, but I am 83 years old, so I am now...

Stop grinning, Tother Jane. Sorry. I'm no spring chicken. I'm three years older than the President of the United States. Yes, that is right. They wouldn't stop them from running. I can still put two sentences together. No, you can't, you know.

I have lost so many dear friends in the last two or three years. I know my closest friend at Oxford was Adrian Metcalf, the great runner. My closest friend at school, a man called Neil Cott they've both gone and I'm still sitting here. Mary said at breakfast a couple of days ago, you know, we should be thankful to still be alive. And because we're getting to that age where we reach what we're above the average. And do you still commit yourself to your four sessions of two hours writing a day? Yes, when I'm actually writing in sessions.

But the other thing I now do is I write for two hours every morning between six and eight every single day, including Christmas Day and New Year's Day, which is over 700 hours a year before most people have got to work. So I do 700 hours a year before most people have got to work.

Yeah. So I do 700 hours a year and the extra. I wish I could... I once heard that Roy Jenkins wrote his book on Churchill and handed it in. I do... Well, what a clever man he must have been, because I do 14 drafts. Well...

I'd like to be like Roy Jenkins please yeah first Jeff writers so Jeffrey I mean this book I'm sure will go gangbusters like all of them and readers as you just said in 119 countries love your work critics are not always universally generous about your books does that bother you or do you just think the sales speak for themselves? Well, you being Times Radio are completely out of date. The typical, even the BBC have woken up lately and realised it's been 15 years since I had a bad review. Read the reviews. No, I can't complain. The reviewers have been very generous indeed recently. I don't pretend to be a great literary writer. That isn't what I actually want to be. I love to tell a story and hope you will turn the page.

Many years ago, I had lunch with Nadim Gadamer in Johannesburg. Very kindly rang up and said, would you like... I said, I'd love to have lunch. And we chatted away and she said, Geoffrey, I'd swap your figures for my Nobel Prize. Would she really, though? Would she really, though? There's an old snooty...

It's easy to say that. Jane being snooty again. Snooty Jane. Yeah, so the thing is, the difference being, I've got to be honest about this, I haven't read one of her books, I've read several of yours. You haven't read Nadim Gadamer? No, I mean...

But that's an interesting comment in itself. Well, I'm just owning it, I'm just several of yours. You haven't read Nadim Gadamer? No, I mean... But that's an interesting comment in itself. Well, I'm just owning it. I'm just being completely honest. Do you know, the books of yours that I didn't read but listened to were your prison diaries. Yes. And I was... I think that's...

You know, you can take this any way you like. I think it's the best thing you've ever done. Your account of being in Belmarsh was moving and it captivated me. And I was angry. I was angry about what you said about the conditions. I felt desperate on behalf of your fellow prisoners. Was that a huge turning point for you, being in there and seeing...

The shock on that book? Yes. The shock on that book is I assumed... I mean, it's 23 years ago, and kind of you to remember, Jane. It's 23 years ago, and kind of you to remember, Jane. It's 23 years ago, and I assume that book would die a death in a couple of years. It's still selling! That's the shock for me. So what evidently affected you is still...

I get a lot of letters from mothers saying they've read it. Well, it's an outsider's view of what seems a completely nightmarish set of circumstances, which you were a part of. You were a prisoner in Belmarsh. And I think the plain fact is that things haven't improved in Britain's prison system at all since your account. Things have got worse, haven't they?

I've no idea. I accept what you're saying, but I've no idea. It was 23 years ago. But you still take an interest in the subject, don't they? I've no idea. I accept what you're saying, but I've no idea. It was 23 years ago. But you still take an interest in the subject, don't you? Well, not above other things. No, I don't. You've campaigned for reform on quite a number of conditions. I did at the time campaign to make sure that people who were having education were paid the same amount of money as those who were doing a job. I said to the Home Secretary, wouldn't it be better to give a reward for someone who got an O level or an A level? Or in my case, I saw two prisoners get degrees rather than pay them less because they're not washing the dishes in the morning. And yes, he did. It was Mr Blunkett.

And yes, he did agree. I mean, you must take an interest. You're a very aware man. You must have read the statistics about staffing in prisons and the horrendous conditions that have been on people a lot for 23 years. I mean, can you accept that the prison conditions have worsened under the Tories? I've no idea. Well, I think it's widely acknowledged they haven't improved, Geoffrey. Yes, I accept that the prison conditions have worsened under the Tories? I've no idea. Well, I think it's widely acknowledged they haven't improved, Geoffrey.

Yes, I accept that. Right, OK, well, we'll settle for that. Yeah. How did prison change you? I'm so sorry, I'm... How did prison change you? Well, I met some very interesting people and it made it possible to write three books that I wouldn't have written and a set of 12 short stories that I wouldn't have written and it made me realise, to answer your question Jane,

how privileged and lucky I am. Which is not always an experience that, well most of us don't have that experience, we're not confronted with the alternative reality, are we? And as a storyteller, I guess for you, in some ways, you could interpret that as a gift, an absolute gift. Oh, yeah. Prisoner of Birth was totally about my experience and using the hero with that experience, yeah. And I'm amazed by how many people, here we are 23 years later,

amazed by how many people come up to me and say, I'd like to have had that experience, Geoffrey. Really? Oh, yes. In a 70-, 80-year life, yes. Well, I mean, I was thinking earlier, the great narrative arc of your own life is a truly remarkable tale. Have you never been tempted to do an autobiography?

No, I have the next three books in my mind if I live that long. So you seriously wouldn't write the story of your own life? No, I wouldn't. I tell you what, I'd read it if you did. I'd read that one. There you are. You do, in the way that you just talked about, about using your prison experiences, you seem to wave a lot of your own experiences into your stories,

including elements that maybe other people might wish to forget, like being in the Old Bailey, journalist prison. Is it cathartic to put those things in characters and give them to characters? I say to people, I say to young people who come to see me about writing, write about what you know about. Write about your own experiences. I mean, I have the House of Commons, business, sport,

whatever it might be, all gets into the books. So I say to young people, for heaven's sake, a lady came to see me who was a hairdresser. And she said, well, you've got a great advantage over me, Geoffrey. You've met so many interesting people and had such an interesting life. Of course you can write. I said, wait a moment.

You'll get more stories in a hairdresser than I will ever get. And I said, you use your own advantage and write about it and the reader will know that you've had that experience. Whereas if you decide to write a ghost story because they're in fashion, or you decide to write a horror story or a sex story because you think it'll sell, it won't work. Write about what you know about it,

and I can show you author after author where they have done just that and they've become international bestsellers without having to bother with sex, violence or bad language. Geoffrey Archer is our guest. He was just talking about Mary Archer, his wife, just then. That's because of her association with the Science Museum. Which she's chairman.

She's the first woman to chair a national gallery or museum, which I think is a disgrace. I think she should be the 20th. I think by now we should have had, I mean, we've got six of the great galleries on earth and it's taken them this long to have a woman chair one of them. She loves it, to be honest. She's absolutely coming to the end of her official time

at the end of this year and she's loved every moment and I think it's going to be hell keeping her indoors and not... Well, don't keep her indoors well no because she'll head straight for the science museum if I don't lock her up where do you spend most of your time these days Jeffrey's between Grantchester and your beautiful looking house in Mallorca are you still in London a bit well I write in Mallorca I do have a lovely home in Mallorca but when Mary was chairman of Cambridge University Trust Hospital, we live mainly there. When she became chairman

of the Science Museum, we've been a lot more in London. And it'll be interesting to see what the next job she gets to find out where we're going to live. You're a trailing spouse. Oh yes. I'm very proud of being

Mary Archer's driver. She's so busy with her jobs. Is that partly what motivates you to keep writing and keep working? Because you honestly don't need the money. What motivates you now? I think she is an example of hard work. But don't kid yourself. And you two are probably exactly the same she loves it and i love

working if i if i if i have a day off i'm unhappy after one day i'm unlivable with after two and after three i'm tearing things apart no i would hate to stop working and so would mary i i never remind people that mary is not a young thing and she's still running a great empire in the science museum and and very proud of the fact the prime minister said to her i want you to get the figures back to what they were pre-covid because she was the second most successful museum in the country and she's missing it at the moment by four percent and she's determined to get it done before she goes I wouldn't put it past her actually we should have said um let's talk politics for a couple of minutes Trader's Gate is set just before the 97 general election and we all know how that ended um Does it feel the same to you now? Are we looking at a potential Labour landslide sometime next year?

I'd be surprised if it was a landslide. I certainly think the Labour Party will win. A lot of it rests on what will happen in Scotland. When the SNP looked as if they'd continue having 90% of the seats in Scotland, looked as if they'd continue having 90% of the seats in Scotland, I would have said it was difficult for Keir Starmer to turn over 152. Now, some people say, oh, but Geoffrey, it isn't 152, it's Boris Johnson won by 80.

He beat the Labour Party by 152 seats, and that's a very big step. Now, if SNP lost, shall we say, for example, 20 seats, I would accept that that would be his majority. Right. But your words were, I think your words were, overwhelming or whatever they were. I think it'll be closer than people imagine. And is that in part because Sir Keir Starmer lacks that special Tony Blair sparkle?

Tony Blair was a brilliant campaigner. Don't think I've seen much better. And the two people... I was in charge of that election on the ground. And the two people he had working with him were also outstanding. He ran a brilliant campaign. He hardly made a mistake, whereas the election before, which I thought we'd lose, and John Major won, I thought we'd lose, but Neil Kinnock lost it in his speech in Sheffield. I often say we didn't win that election, Neil Kinnock lost it.

But that comes to the point I'd like to make, Jane. Something may happen during the election campaign. It feels like three weeks, or it's officially three weeks. I can tell you when you're out there, it feels like six months. And someone will make a mistake. Someone will do something that gathers every headline. And that's what Neil Kinnock did. And that can happen. Answer your question. If it goes through smoothly for both sides, yes, I would expect the Labour Party to win. But we've been in power, the Conservative Party have been in power for 14 years. Boredom sets in when John Major lost.

We'd been in power for 17 years. Boredom set in when Brown lost. They'd been in, I think it was 13 years. And they were just... So it's healthy. It's healthy to have a change. Which recent, excluding Rishi Sunak, who has been the most impressive recent Tory prime minister, who would you pick?

Well, I think, I don't know Rishi Sunak, but I think he comes over as a thoroughly decent human being. Yes, I'd say excluding him. Who of the most recent Tory prime ministers do you rate? Well, you see, you're doing it again, Jane. Am I? Yes. I can't rate a prime minister any better. I work for two.

I work for Margaret Thatcher for 11 years. I work for John Major for seven years. If you don't actually work with them, everybody has an opinion and they haven't even met the person. I don't have quite casually those opinions. So I'll answer your question. He comes over as a thoroughly decent man. And he comes over, the thing that impresses me, he comes over with a grasp for detail. And if Margaret Thatcher taught me one thing, it was if you're going to be Prime Minister, you'd better have a grasp for detail.

Geoffrey, you became a MP at 29. Yes. Too young. That was the biggest mistake I made in my life. It's interesting because we've got a lot of younger MPs in Parliament now giving up the next election because of the pressures of the job. Do you think Parliament's changed?

Do you think it's a more difficult place than it was back in your days in under 30? Beyond recognition, Jane. When I went in the House and we had Harold Wilson on the front bench, Crossland, Crossman, Jenkins, Shirley Williams. I mean, they were, maybe I thought they were giants, but I'm beginning to think they were giants. On our side, we had Margaret Thatcher and we had Quentin Hogg and we had Ian McLeod and Keith Joseph. And I thought they were giants because I was a child. Maybe they were.

But again, I'm not in Parliament. No, I sit in the House of Lords, but I'm not in the House that makes the decisions. It's hard to say. What I will say is it's becoming a far less attractive job for someone to want to do. I did a meeting for the Kit Kat Club. This is young women who have become chairman or managing director by the age of 40. And the Lord Mayor, Fiona Wolfe, at that time, about 15 years ago,

10, 15 years ago, asked me to address 150 women. I was in heaven. And I was having a real row with this woman at the back. And I said, well, why don't you go into politics? Why don't you go on the front bench? Why don't you change things? And she said, Geoffrey, I earn a quarter of a million a year. And I don't want everyone to know about my love life. And the rest of the 150 women started applauding. And I thought, wow. So you just said that being an MP was one of your biggest mistakes, becoming an MP.

You said that becoming an MP was one of your biggest mistakes at 29. At that age. At that age. Quite right. What else do you regret? Well, no, I regret that. And to tell you why, I said, and I can honestly, I said to Sajid Javid and Nadeem Zahawi,

whatever you do, don't go in before 40. Do something, achieve something, then go in. I thought I was a god at 29, and I wasn't. I was a worm. So it was a big mistake in that sense. What else do I regret? I don't spend my life looking backwards and regretting. I get on with tomorrow. Geoffrey is fixing me with quite a stare as he says that, listeners. I was on the cusp of calling in the authorities.

The indefatigable Geoffrey Archer, who is 83 and a little bit deaf. So sometimes he didn't always hear the question or sometimes he just didn't respond to the question that he'd been asked. I mean, make of that what you will. But there's no getting away. I mean, I asked him during the course of the conversation, would he ever write an autobiography? And he said no. And I do think that's an astonishing, I mean, I wish he would, because let's be honest, there are lots of stories about Geoffrey Archer. And it's no exaggeration to say he is a great storyteller. And I would love to hear the Geoffrey Archer version. I really would. I'd like to hear the Mary Archer version. And also that. Yes. Yeah.

But I suppose the danger with somebody who has made so much of their life revolve around their imagination, when you were reading their autobiography, I mean, he's a, he's a fiction writer. That's what I mean by that comment. Obviously. Then you might read it and not, you know, be questioning all the time.

You know, do I need to go and check this from two viable sources? Yeah. I wonder whether he's actually written one, but it won't come out until. It's not going to drop till he's 90. Well, until perhaps he's, as we say, euphemistically no longer with us. But he was in vigorous health today. So I do wish him the very best. And actually, Mary Archer, you're right, is an incredibly interesting person. Isn't she?

Well, yes, now running the Science Museum and has just got the most astonishing CV. So, yeah, there are things we don't yet fully understand about life Fee I've been to his apartment you know the amazing penthouse one overlooking the Thames was it champagne and shepherd's pie parties yeah I wasn't invited to one of those

I'd gone along to interview him for a political programme it's quite remarkable if you lived in a place like that, I think you just would, you would just have such a different view of life. It's so beautiful. And you feel like you are king of the world. As the Thames sails past you, you know, I think you can catch the Palace of Westminster on the corner of the Thames in the distance. And I remember huge sofas before most people had huge sofas. Right.

The archers had a big one, didn't they? But they had enormous sofas. We weren't invited to stay for very long. He gave us a very, very succinct and wonderful interview. And that was marvellous and lovely. Well, I'll look forward to listening to that interview. I've just tidied up my papers there as it's time to go home.

And if anybody in Spain can answer the question of why Geoffrey Archer cannot shift a single book in Spain, I'd be really interested in hearing why that is. Because he does really gangbusters everywhere else

but cannot, cannot sell a copy in Spain. In Spanish. He's had them all translated. Oh, yeah. He hasn't made that basic error of only publishing sell a copy in Spain. In Spanish? He's had them all translated? Oh, yeah. He hasn't made that basic error of only publishing them in English in Spain and hoping they'll just catch on. Well, there would be people who can speak English in Spain. Of course there would, yes.

Yes, anyway, so many mysteries. And Ken Follett with us tomorrow. So, well, if you're a regular listener, you'll know how much that means to me. I shan't get a wink tonight because I'll be delving back into his book Jane and Fee What will you wear? Tonight? A very thick pyjamas

Tomorrow Oh tomorrow I should think of a full length ball gown trumpet sleeves Because when you went off for your lunch what was it? The Ritz, wasn't it? Yes. It was the running joke at the time was you were going to wear a peasant's outfit

because the latest novel that he had written, which was just the 1,347 pages, was set in the 7th century or something like that. Yes. I mean, what I will say about Ken's sex scenes is that there's not a lot of foreplay mean what I will say about Ken's sex scenes is that um there's not a lot of foreplay um because the lady um astonishingly is always prepared yeah well I think Ken Follett's description of breasts through the ages yeah we've done that yes it's long in my memory there's an incident and I tell you what it's been responsible for me buying some very very full- recently, Jane. I've got Ken to thank for that. To keep everything in good order.

There is, I mean, I probably won't mention it, but there is a funny scene, it's called The Armour and the Light, or Llama of Light. It's not a particularly catchy title, but it's not going to hold its sales back. And there's a woman who, she's actually involved in a food riot because the price of bread has gone up. And she's knocked out.

She has a minor bit of concussion. Was it sourdough? I don't know. It's not... There were very serious food riots at the time. But anyway, before you know it, she's in a stable having a bit of, how's your father? She's absolutely up for it.

Two minutes after being knocked out in a food riot. Turned on by protest. Oh, good Lord. Anyway, more of that kind of thing tomorrow. Light your brazier with us. We'll come on board. You did it. Elite listener status for you for getting through another half hour or so

of our whimsical ramblings. Otherwise known as the hugely successful podcast Off Air with Jane Garvey and Fee Glover. We missed the modesty class. Our Times Radio producer is Rosie Cutler, the podcast executive producer. It's a man, it's Henry Tribe. Yeah, he is an executive.

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