Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Why do we keep 'putting off' talking about the care system? [With Emily Kenway]

Episode Date: June 19, 2023

Jane and Fi roll through a host of different topics on today's episode - from holiday luggage to men's underwear, Fi's love of Coldplay and Britain's care system.In today's Big Interview, writer and activist Emily Kenway joins Jane and Fi to discuss her book 'Who Cares' - which delves into her experiences being a carer for her mum who had cancer. She argues for legal rights for people caring for family members who become ill or disabled. If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] our Instagram! @JaneandFiAssistant Producer: Khadijah HasanTimes Radio Producer: Kate Lee Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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So we've just done one of the most dynamic features ever done on a Times Radio programme, Jane, haven't we? Do you want to relive it? It's about luggage. It's about summer luggage. Oh, we didn't play the tune. I thought we were going to go in it. You really did go on about that. You had an idea about what tune we could play.

Summer luggage. Had me a blast. Happened so fast. It doesn't really work. You really were quite gripped by the possibility. I'm really glad in the end it didn't happen. Crazy for me. I don't think it works.

No, it would have worked. It would have worked as long as you didn't throw shade on it. But now you've thrown shade on it. So it won't... People just would have tittered lightly at home and then we would have faded it out. Anyway, it was because we were doing a hot or not feature about summer luggage.

Sometimes I can't... Sometimes these things don't bear much scrutiny, do they really? No, but we both ended up being actually properly interested by a new four-wheeled hand luggage suitcase that has got an integral power thingy in it so you can charge your phone and your laptop and everything that's bloody brilliant it's bloody brilliant and i mean we've been traveling um since you used to go away without a phone when you'd have the phone by the bed in the hotel and you could call reception so that's so true so we've been travelling since a time when you just told somebody,

maybe even in a letter, that you were going abroad and you sent them a postcard. When you were there. And then when you got back two weeks later, you might have phoned them on a Sunday evening, cheap rate calls, to let them know that you were home safely. Oh, no, it was cheap all day on a Sunday, wasn't it? Or was it?

I don't know. It was very, very cheap after six. Oh, you were really cheap. They practically paid you. And then after that, you'd invite the neighbours in for a cheese and wine evening and a look at the slides. And you could basically make everything else up.

As I'm sure many people did. Come round and see my holiday slides. But now you can be charged at all times and you can wheel your whizzy thing all over the world. We were just discussing, weren't we, very briefly in the studio, a time, I mean, Josh couldn't remember this, when suitcases didn't even have wheels. We just had to struggle along with them, which is just so odd. It is a really weird concept because that series, Ten Pompoms, which nobody apart from me enjoyed,

apparently, it's full of people trying to heft suitcases around and really struggling with it. Although, of course, they're not because, as in lots of TV dramas, there's nothing in the case and you can tell. It's like the moment when Nicky Campbell comes round in Long Lost Family. Someone opens the door and says, oh, hello, Nicky.

It's like, no, the camera crew's already inside. He's already had a cup of tea with you. And he's gone out again. There's no hello, Nicky, going on. He's gone out and come back in and done it for the camera. Yeah. They're never surprised, are they? They open the door and go, what the hell are you doing here?

No, they just open the door and go, hello, Nicky. You know, we vaguely know the bloke. And if he turned up at my door, I'd be like, what are you doing here, Nicky Campbell? Anyway, right, thanks to everybody who's emailed. We're always very grateful and we really mean it. And there's an increasing number of men in the United States getting in touch.

I think it's because that country's going through a very hard time. I'm a male in Minnesota, says this correspondent, sitting on my dock with a few beers in me. Have you read this one before? No. Catching up on my dock with a few beers in me. Have you read this one before? No. Catching up on a podcast from a couple of weeks ago.

And I hear your email inquiring about men's poor-fitting undergarments. Anyway, the worst for me was a couple of years ago, receiving some boxers from my mother as a gift, only to find them sized too small. But I'm frugal, so I wore them for a few years resenting my mother every single time I did until such a time as I wore through them and they fell to tatters. That's for a man sitting on a dock with a few beers inside him reminiscing about some tiny pants his mother bought him. I'm calling Dr Freud and hearing what he has to say about that. So there were other options available to our man in Minnesota. He could have just maybe stopped drinking for a little while

and lost a couple of inches, and then the boxes would have fitted better. Yeah, but he just wanted to basically take it all out on his poor old mum. Oh, that's a shame. Yeah, it is a shame. This one comes from Mel, who says, Hello, lovely Jane and Fee. On the topic of men meeting their partners at the airport with flowers,

for balance, I'd just like to add the greeting I received from my husband of 29 years after a recent trip to the US for a marathon swim event. Pop it. Welcome back from rehab. Let's hope it worked this time. I hope other people heard that. Actually, we're not laughing at rehab, you understand,

but it is quite a good line. Oh, that's a very BBC thing. So well done. Don't just say I'm not. No, we're not laughing at all, but that is funny. And maybe that's the secret of a 29-year marriage. Could well be. To have a little bit of a laugh,

but also to go on lots of trips on marathon swims. Yeah, a bit of time apart. Probably helps to go on lots of trips on marathon swims. A bit of time apart. Probably helps. Especially if you're raising money for charity. Why not? Hello, Scott. He's in the United States.

I'm your biggest fan in Hollywood CA, he says. California. Yeah. I know you probably don't want to know this, and it's not a sentence you hear every day. But now, every time I see a guy adjust himself in public, I think of you both. Honestly, you have no one to blame but yourselves. Scott and Joy and I love this whole, I was saying to you

earlier, this whole Hollywood CA thing reminds me of me going to a festival on Saturday. I was going to ask. No, I know. Jane, have you been to a festival on Saturday? Yes, and I met your old friend Hannah. Yes, it was the Black Deer Festival. So greetings to everybody else who was also at that.

I must be absolutely honest. I did a day and it was fabulous. I enjoyed every moment. Really did, actually. But I couldn't have stayed any longer. Now, who was headlining on your day? Well, I went to see Bonnie Raitt. And Bonnie is fabulous.

I love her singing. Did she do In the Nick of Time? Did In the Nick of Time. Just before the end, so it was... In the Nick of Time. Actually, ironically, she didn't. I need to correct the record. She did it almost at the beginning.

Oh, okay. I just did it for a cheap gag. She didn't do her version of I Can't Make You Love Me, which I really like. Oh, that's beautiful. That's such a sad song, but I really like that, but she didn't do that. She did do Let's Give Them Something to Talk About. She's such

a brilliant guitarist, and she's in her 70s, and she absolutely commanded the place. But what reminded me of the email I've just read out is that she said that it was lovely to be here in a place she described as Kent County. It is Kent County.

Strictly speaking, it is, but you just don't hear it that often. And then she introduced the band, and I think she had a guitarist called Hutch Hutchinson, and he was out of Name of a Small Place, and then we got the American State. So I just think from now on I want to be Jane Garvey out of Liverpool, Merseyside and you could be... Well I'd be Fee Glover out of Slough, Berkshire.

Yeah, Slough, Berkshire. So that's just, we can claim that and I think that's absolutely reasonable. I rather like it. It just sort of centres you completely doesn't it? Anyway, lovely occasion and there is just something about a real mix of people. There were toddlers I really thought it was sweet. You saw

a lot of toddlers. I'm talking sort of four-year-olds, possibly a bit younger. And they were playing. And it's there in the golden age before technology has grabbed them. So they were just rolling around on the grass, chucking things, little hats at each other, picking them up and laughing.

It's lovely when there's somebody else's kids. No, but it is adorable. It's adorable. But I was actually thinking slightly dark thoughts that in five or six years' time, I'll just be staring at a screen in their bedrooms. Oh, it's really sad, isn't it? It's really sad.

I've cheered everybody up. Anyway, it was lovely. Well, that's good. Slightly regretted some aspects of it. What, the hospitality tent? No, I mean, it was lovely. But yes, let's put it this way. I just had to sit very still

when I got back home. Excellent. Indeed, for a large part of yesterday. Can I say a big shout out to Hannah? Yes. She's a good, good woman. We were at university together. Oh, she told me. Don't say it like that. No, she really is, so I'm very glad you bumped into her.

I do slightly worry about quite how much you talked about. Well, the good news is is I can't remember a large percentage. Well, the bad news is it might come back to you. This is from Helen, who says, might we have the pleasure of seeing you both on Celebrity Gogglebox anytime soon? And if so, what would be your choice of strategically placed snack? Would you be prepared to compromise or require separate bowls of sustenance?

Well, it's an interesting idea. We've not been invited on to the celebrity goggle box anytime soon. But if we were, what would your choice of snack be? Oh, well, those Marks and Spencer barbecue nuts. I've moved on from chili nuts and now it's barbecue nuts. OK. Yeah. And I would just have cheese and crackers

because that is quite often my dinner. But I've noticed actually that they very rarely, the two girls quite often eat their snacks. Peter and his sister quite often eat their snacks. But otherwise they don't eat their snacks at all. But I can't see a snack and not eat it.

No, I wouldn't be able to do that either. And in terms of continuity it would be a little bit embarrassing because they'd film us right at the start of watching, oh, I've got a recommendation, Colin from Accounts, and then they'd pan back to us and there'd be an empty bowl of nuts and just some crumbs of cheese and crackers. Well, within a couple of hours of arriving at the Black Deer Festival,

I ate a chicken burger and almost inevitably it's quite difficult to eat a burger and I was sitting on some sort of hay bale. It's very raw. Very authentic. I mean, it was like being... Do you know what it sounds like? Woodstock. It really was. And I took a big bite and out splurged

all the saucy filling right down my frock. But I kept my dignity. You are a class act. Oh, hardly. Can I just recommend Deadlock, please? And that's spelled L-O-C-H. Channel, am I finding that on?

I think that is finding on the... It's either on the Prime. It's finding it on the Prime. I think you're finding it on the Prime. OK. It's out of Tasmania, and it's a comedy police procedural, largely starring women.

And a connection, vague connection to us, is it's written by the two women who starred in the, I think it's Get Cracking, piss take of Australian breakfast TV that had the same theme tune that we used to have for this. It's quite tenuous, Link, but there is a link. I love the idea of them doing a mock breakfast show called Get Cracking. I think it's huge in Australia, but there is a link. I love the idea of them doing a mock breakfast show called Get Cracky. I think it's huge in Australia but our Australian compadres

will be able to make sure I've got all of that right. But Deadlock is funny, Jane. There's one character in it who's a little bit too much but it is really good, watchable, slightly different actually, comedic, cosy crime, where so far no woman has been harmed. Well, I'm really glad to hear that.

Because I think we've got a crime book later this week, haven't we, on the programme? We do, yeah. Karen Slaughter. So, yes, people are harmed in that. Somebody wanted to tackle us, actually, about cosy crime and said that we shouldn't knock it until we've tried it. And actually, Jane and I read loads of cosy crime.

It comes from Kath. Always enjoy the programme, however, with the above topic, cosy murder mystery. Have either of you read one? Like any literary genre, there are good ones and there are others. A well-written one is a great escape from today's news. Give them a chance. Well, we completely and utterly agree.

is a great escape from today's news. Give them a chance. Well, we completely and utterly agree. And actually, Donna Leone, Sarah Paretsky, Susie Steiner, you love Ellie Griffiths. I think as a kid, I read every single Agatha Christie that ever emerged. We are big fans of the genre, whilst now slightly struggling

with just the concept of harm, actually. That's what's happened to us, isn't it? Well, we are. And I think, particularly in the light of events that have happened in the UK in the last week or so, the murders of young people, it's just not something I want to read about. No, never.

It just isn't. This is an important email, actually, and it's in response to an email that we read out a couple of weeks ago from a GP, do you remember this, who had just been particularly taxing last surgery on a Friday afternoon and had to complete, I think it was a four on the trot, people turning up saying they thought they had ADHD or possibly autism. And there was a great deal of work involved for the GP. And she wasn't complaining. She was just saying that this wouldn't have happened not that long ago. It seemed to her

to be a relatively new phenomenon. But this is an important email from a listener who says, I'm a bit riled. The GP who wrote to you regarding adult ADHD and autism assessments is very short-sighted, I think. I'm afraid it's indicative of many within the system. Unless the GP has sorted it out, they've had little to no training on neurodiversity assessment, but they should be well aware of the potential socioeconomic, mental and physical, familial and marital consequences of undiagnosed ADHD and autism,

many of which will come at a further cost to the NHS. My husband and two beautiful children have ADHD and ASC. All three do or did well at school. My husband went to Oxford. He has a good job. But his and our world was falling apart after we bought a home and had two children. The enormity and complexity of normal family life was too much for him. He nearly lost his job and his mental health was suffering. Getting a diagnosis and an understanding of his place in the world was life-changing. He

does struggle though every day. My children work hard, they are quotes well behaved but looking after them and their needs and fighting for them has become my full-time job depriving the workforce of a highly qualified 40-something. I know many many women in the same position. To hear these conditions being discussed by one of the gatekeepers as a waste of her time, well, to be fair, that wasn't quite what she said, and as blocking patients with cancer symptoms is absurd, hurtful, and I think stupid. Thank you for the email, and I hear the passion there, so I'm very grateful to you because you're coming at this from a very particular perspective you have lived through it and I can tell that it's not always been easy to put it mildly.

And I think with the ADHD thing Jane there are so many people of our generation and above who now they understand what it is that that defines those symptoms they will often have a conversation that goes, oh, gosh, actually, do you know what? There was a girl at school, Mary. I can see clearly now that that's what she had. And I think if, especially with boys, if you went through the bad behaviour of quite a lot of teenage boys, which just fell into this really weird category of expected of them,

which I think is possibly something that's changed, and also not understanding ADHD. Maybe I'm wrong to just identify boys as having that bad behaviour, but I think it was forgiven and misunderstood in a way that now we can quite clearly see that there was a lot of it around then. It's not just that there's a lot of it suddenly around now. It just wasn't diagnosed at all.

I probably am wrong to justify that as boys, aren't I? But I think that getting into trouble thing, where teenage boys were almost forgiven for it. Slightly excused, maybe. Can't help it. And actually, if you are neurodiverse, you can't help it. I kind of want to defend the GP who wrote to us originally. Yes, please do. Because I think, in fairness, she was responding to something I'd said.

So I don't want to attack that GP who just had one of those days, one of those surgeries where she just had one after another of adults saying, I need this, I really do. And I feel for the adults too, because they may have waited years to go to the GP and it was just pure coincidence that they all went on the same afternoon. As we know, as previously discussed, it's not easy to get an appointment. Can I just say, there's an email here,

which the correspondent has asked us not to read out, but we have both read it and it's headlined Death and Grief. And I don't want to sum it up but it's loosely speaking about grief coming in many forms and no form of grief is any easier to bear than any other kind really and we've read it and thank you for writing it. This one is from Sadev, I hope I have pronounced that correctly and apologies if I haven't. Just to say that your 14th of June episode had me a little confused. After you talked about the antics of British politicians and then moved on to Miriam Margulies, I got her confused with Angela Merkel, former chancellor of Germany.

I was in the shower whilst listening, so not paying full attention. A very strange picture popped into my mind. Well, too right. I think as we were talking about Miriam Margulies being in vogue with just some ice buns on her breasts. So you don't want to be imagining Angela Merkel like that. There's a really weird... Not that there would be anything wrong with it if she chose to do it. Not that there would be anything wrong with it if she chose to do it.

Just a bit of balance. Okay. There's a really good documentary about her available on the iPlayer. Have you watched that one? Angela Merkel? Yep. I haven't actually. What's it called?

It's called Angela Merkel. Oh, I suppose that's no bad thing. It would certainly make it easier to find, wouldn't it, if you were looking for a programme about Angela Merkel? Oh, dear. And Sarah has just said, I thought I'd respond about female soldiers and bears. Oh, dear. And Sarah has just said, I thought I'd respond about female soldiers and bearskin. Oh, yeah, this is very important.

Following your reference to them last week. When watching the Trooping of the Colour today, JJ Chalmers interviewed the female director of music for the Welsh Guards, Major Lauren Petritz-Watts, and she was clutching her bearskin. I seem to think she was also featured in the TV programme Coronation Tailors Fit for a King, but I can't remember if she had a bearskin then.

Anyway, it seems that women do wear them on ceremonial occasions. Thank you for pointing that out. Do you wear one? I've got several, yes. I've got a bright pink one for parties. Oh, yes, I've seen that. Fia's quite small, but you can always see her at parties. She looks like a little matchstick.

Right. Quite a few of you have had sort of near misses with members of Coldplay. This is from Delighted of Winchester. Like Fia, I have a Coldplay crush confession. Will Champion, the Coldplay drummer, I know him he was in my sixth form tutor group at Peter Simmons College Winchester

Winchesterford, in the Winchester Wiltshire Winchester Hampshire oh really, it's in the wrong shire Peter Simmons College who's Peter Simmons? I don't know but it was a really really good sixth form college that I very much wish I'd gone to, actually, Jane, but I didn't.

No. Let's go back to the sixth form tutor group at Peter Simmons College, Winchester, in the late 1990s. I had a secret crush on Will for 18 months and was slowly but surely trying to woo him with fascinating bits of chit-chat during morning registrations. He was quiet and attractively brooding and would usually sit in the corner drumming his hands, you see. He was practising, drumming his hands on his rather fine legs. It's a different noise for you. It was

frustrating. Everything was frustratingly lost when my so-called friend, Emily, swooped in one rowdy Friday night and snogged him right in front of me. I believe she ruined my life. Sorry, did you say Emily? Yes. Bad Emily. Bad, bad Emily. We've got your card marked, Emily. A year or two ago, I was standing at the bar at a nice pub in Hampstead and a nice-looking man came up to me at the bar and said, hey, excuse me, were you in my tutor group at college? And guess what? It was him.

The PS is quite good. Like many people, I can't stand their music, so maybe it just wasn't meant to be. How can you say that? I don't dislike their music. You can't say fairer than that. I don't dislike their music. I mean, they'll be devastated, won't they? I tell you what, they'll see a slide in international sales following that, Jane.

Don't diss Coldplay. Like I said, I hate people who hate Coldplay. I don't hate them. No, that's good. Anyway, any adjacent to Coldplay stories, we will happily take those. Who would you say your absolute favourite go-to, pop it on, always takes you to the right place band is? Well, it's funny. I go to one of my playlists and I've got like a 70s disco thing that I probably play more often than anything else.

It's got things like Yvonne Elliman and Jack and Jill. Do you know that song? Jack Went Up the Hill? That one. But quite high-octane disco tunes, because basically I have the musical tastes of a gay man, and I absolutely love it. That's good. Don't really like going to discos. Don't go to clubs, but do like that sort of music. Yeah. Have you ever heard of Afan...

What's yours? Sorry, I forgot to ask the question. Oh, well, no, that's why I was mentioning it, because mine would be Coldplay. Would it really be Coldplay? I would pop on some Coldplay. So I probably wouldn't play Parachutes, because I find that is quite sad, some of that.

But I actually really like their last album, Music of the Spheres, which not everybody did. Have you ever heard of an artist called SZA? S-Z-A. Have you, Khadija? No no i haven't done so my girls went to see her last night at the o2 said it was absolutely amazing and it's you know when it's very difficult i don't know why young people do this they take their bloody phone in there do a little video and of course it never does the occasion justice it just can't uh but at one

point scissor is floating across the O2 on what looks like a giant lilo. Wow. I know. Anyway, she waved. Well, my daughter waved at her and she waved back. Yeah, true that. You impressed?

Hugely. You'd be more impressed if you knew who SZA was, I suspect. Yeah, I'm trying hard to picture it, but no, that's great. No, that is great. Well, it lit up the atmosphere in our house. Really weirdly, on my scroll-a-thon thing on the Insta, absolutely covered in Harry Styles. Yes, well, I've got a bit of a confession there

because I've bought the special commemorative smash hit edition of Harry Styles. I think I'm still in festival mode. I think you're still drunk, love. Right, shall we try and get to the interview before you pass out? No, just, this is something I didn't know anything about and it was a really interesting email from, I think we can mention your name, but I won't just in case. A listener who lives in Lyon C.

I have a wry smile when I hear you, Jane, say, in my mind's eye and when you, Fee, say, paint a picture in my head because I simply can't, says our correspondent in Lyon C. I've got a condition called aphantasia. I hope I've pronounced that right, which means that I have no visual imagery or imagination whatsoever. Nothing in there. I never have. I cannot visualise.

So when people say, can you imagine, the answer is quite simply, no, I can't. Well, that's very sad. Have you heard of it? My mind is just a fuzzy black hole, a bit like a TV that can't quite tune into a station. I do have a fairly good memory, though, to compensate, and ironically, I'm a visual learner.

Plus, I take an awful lot of photographs to help, but there's never a clear picture in my head as I am mind blind. I'm not alone in this. This is a fairly new area of scientific and neurological study and there are quite a few of us out there. About 1-3% of the population is allegedly aphantasic. So there we are.

I think that's one to investigate a bit more in Doctor Doctor. Yeah, we'll put that to one side, shall we, in our fantastic, unique filing system. OK, let's get to the interview today then, you're quite right. You're looking very assertive, have you got something to go to? No, I'm just waiting for you to over-assert my assertiveness. So the guest today is Emily Kenway, who's written a book called Who Cares? The Hidden Crisis of Caregiving and How We Solve It. And Emily is in her early 30s.

And when she was 31, she became a carer for her mother who had terminal cancer. I should say her mum has very sadly died in September of 2020. So she was doing all this during the really difficult first winter and during the first difficult year of the pandemic. So that must have been incredibly tough. She was before that a writer, an activist, but she's written this, I think, brilliant book called Who Cares?, which is really just about the business of caring, what it's like to be a carer, regardless, actually, of whether you're any good at it. Although I should say Emily sounds as though she was brilliant at it,

and just about what lies ahead for all of us, the idea that women are somehow better equipped to do the messy stuff of care when, in fact, wiping somebody's bottom, because that is what lies at the heart of this, is not something that men can't do. It's just something that, on the whole, they aren't expected to do, and it isn't easy for women to do it either.

Anyway, 5 million people in Britain are thought to be unpaid carers. 60% of them are women. Most of them are over the age of 50. So Emily told us a little bit, first of all, about her mum. So my mum was a very strong, independent woman. She was single and she got cancer when she was around 60. And it, I mean, she's passed away from it since, but in the patch of years where she was sick, it completely changed everything that she knew her life to have been, you know, it made her vulnerable in every

kind of way. And our whole lives became consumed by hospital visits and treatments and whether they'd work and so on and so forth. So it was kind of shocking on both a physical and a mental level for both of us, I think. Now, you have a sibling, I think one sibling, a sister, is that right? Yeah, I have a sister, an older sister. She had two small children, well, one small child at first and then a pregnancy and a baby during this time. And that's why I was the main carer for my mum, because I don't have children.

So I was kind of the person to be around. And that's often how care gets kind of spread in a family is somebody becomes a default. And it might make sense. But often that person ends up caring alone. And it might make sense, but often that person ends up caring alone. We have a lot of lone carers in the UK and it's an incredibly difficult and isolating experience that needs a lot more support. You are a young woman and you had another form of life to lead, working presumably, relationships as well. How were you able to manage it all? Well, I think when you say another life to leave is actually correct right because in a way you know um I did bit by bit leave my normal

early 30s life so um I carried on you know having friends and socializing to the extent that I could but obviously I couldn't get to things quite often. And also when I was at things, it became very hard to try to feel like I was in the same world as everyone else, you know, because I might have just come from hospital or my mum might be messaging me saying she was feeling like she was getting a fever or, you know, all of these things are happening all the time. I had a romantic relationship breakdown, which I do attribute to the stress of being in that situation and the kind of incongruence of living your life totally about sickness and death and care while everyone else is kind of living a normal life and trying to find your way in that and like many

carers I cut my hours down at work slowly but surely, you know, five days to four, four to three, and then resigned entirely. So that was another impact. And all these things are kind of, unfortunately, the absolute norm for carers, you know, of any age, to be losing romantic relationships, social lives, careers, and so on. You're very honest in the book, because you say that at times, frankly, you were caring for somebody who profoundly irritated you. Your relationship had not always been easy. Your mum had been quite, she'd been quite a vulnerable woman in other ways, hadn't she, during the course of her life? So she was kind of a classic woman of her generation, I think, where she was really strong and very intelligent, but she was also perhaps not someone

who could talk about or manage emotions very effectively. And there is no more emotional situation than finding yourself with cancer and having all these things done to your body. And so it made it extremely stressful, you know, and very, very difficult to walk beside and to walk beside in a respectful way, because of course, I wasn't going to display that irritation or that upset towards her as much as possible, because, you know, she's the one who's got cancer, she's the one who's dying. So that felt inappropriate. So as the carer, you just, you kind of stop being a real person, you know, because you're doing all these practical tasks, but you're also pretending not to feel the way you feel. And it's what I say in the book, people hear the word care, and they think of something kind of nice and fluffy. And care is

as messy as love, right? I love my mom so much. And obviously, we're a mother and a daughter, you know, we had our issues between each other and that carries on into care as well which can make it much harder or at least not so simplistic. Can we just talk briefly if you don't mind about the the intimacy of it the fact that you did have to do a lot of very personal stuff for your mum and and people know this happens logically but the truth is that most of us just don't we don't want our thoughts to go there, quite honestly. Yeah, and this is something we absolutely have to change unless we deliberately want to be in much worse sort of mental situation in the future. You know, it's no good, frankly, to pretend that it's not coming, both in terms of us doing it for someone

and having someone do it for us, right? And so, yeah, my mum had various patches throughout her illness where she needed intimate care. So that means things like showering and bathing someone and also changing their incontinence wear. And, you know, it's the norm in all societies, it seems, for women to be seen as more appropriate to do that, regardless of the sex of the person that they're caring for um and that is partly one of the reasons why care does tend to fall on women more than on

men because there's this like hidden assumption that it's more appropriate for women to do that um i'm really glad i could do that for my mom frankly um because I know that I was able to make her feel more comfortable about the situation less shame and so on and I'm I'm glad that I'm you know that's a gift that I could give and so you know I think my friends are lucky because they've got a friend now who can do it um but I think we all need to grow up a bit to be honest with you and realize that we might think we're sort of minds walking around, but we're bodies as well, and that it's not shameful to need help with that body. Yeah.

You do say in the book that there's an anecdote that I think a lot of people have mentioned to you about the women who are looking after their partner's elderly parents while their male partners enjoy a walking holiday. And this is something that I think a lot of older women might recognise. And you've already alluded to it, the idea that for some reason, women don't really mind looking after old people or indeed caring for anybody. It's our sort of thing, really. And on the whole, it's something that we don't expect men to do as much of. But

of course, there'll be people listening who have three sons or two sons or one son, or of course, no children at all, or their children may have pre-deceased them. And all these people will need care too. Yeah, I mean, men are carers, unpaid carers as well. It's just a smaller proportion. And what tends to happen in families is there's a kind of hierarchy of who is most likely to be chosen to be the carer. And men are low down that hierarchy after wives, daughters, daughters-in-law. But then sometimes, yes, they are the only person. I think the conversation about people no longer having as many children or children at all is absolutely vital because our whole system is built on the

assumption that everyone has children who will be adults who can look after them and that everyone has enough children who live near enough to them to be able to help and none of these things are true anymore so how do we create a system that is actually fit for purpose especially as we go into the future when we're just seeing you know exponential rises in dementia and parkinson's and so on so we're going to have even more care need but with even fewer people to provide it voiceover describes what's happening on your iphone screen voiceover on settings so you can navigate it just by listening books contacts, double tap to open. Breakfast with Anna from 10 to 11. And get on with your day. Accessibility. There's more to iPhone.

We are talking to Emily Kenway, the author and activist. Her book is called Who Cares? And we asked her something about the pitfalls of care being outsourced from the family, usually to other women. Yes, exactly. And this was something that I was very keen for the book to explore and kind of articulate that there's this running assumption in it seems everyone that someone else will do the care for them, whether that's through a kind of national care service. So like an NHS equivalent or, you know, paid support. And what that really means is still women doing it and probably low paid migrant women who are then in turn,

not able to care for their own family members, which is something that academics call care extractivism, right? So we're taking the care kind of possibilities out of the global South. And this outsourcing mindset is one of the things that I kind of confront very deliberately because when you are a carer and I think if you speak to any people who are in or have been in my positions you'll hear the same thing of course we would have liked more support right that's an absolute certainty but we weren't performing the care just because there wasn't this outsourced sort of army of carers available, right? That's not the sole reason. We're doing it for multiple reasons, partly that people's bodies are very unpredictable

when they're sick. So you're never going to have a system that's plannable enough for family members and friends not to be a core component of care also lots of people who need care can't do the bureaucracy and advocacy for themselves in those systems anyway you know people who've had strokes or dementia or who have high complex down syndrome all sorts of things so you still have to have family members involved, you know. My mum was one of many care receivers, this is very common, who don't like to have very much outside support. And so good luck, you know, you may think you're going to outsource it, but the person needing care has a right to their preferences as well. And the final thing I always say is that we love people. And that's part of

the reason why we provide the care, right? So this outsourcing mindset doesn't bear out in the kind of bodily reality, nor in the reality of what we know about our relationships. So we have to have a different kind of solution than one that's just like, oh, something will magically come along and be able to cope with this very erratic, very complicated, love bound situation. Can we talk a little bit about possible solutions? I mean, I think it would strike anybody who's listening to your brilliant thoughts about this as almost absurd for any political party to go into the next election promising lower taxes forever,

because until we get something sorted out with social care and adult social care you cannot promise people that they can pay less into a state pot. I mean absolutely and I mean this is true across lots of issues you know we clearly need more resources in our societies. Carers specifically you know even aside from funding adult social care as I've said we're always going to have family carers as well no matter what we do with adult social care. And we need to be giving carers like I was a proper income. So today we have carers allowance, a benefit, which is £76.75 a week for people who are caring for 35 hours or more unpaid.

Right. So there's a reason why carers are far more likely than the rest of the population to be using food banks. And so we cannot be pushing people into poverty simply because they've cared for a family member who was sick. And that is what's happening today. And I tell some of those stories in the book, you know. So some of that conversation about what we should be putting government resourcing into has to be about family carers and not again falling into this. It's an outsourcing solution that we need. come to pass, along with quite a few other things he promised. So I wonder how much of a conversation there will be around social care when it comes to the election, Emily. I fear actually that it probably won't feature as prominently as it should. You know, my hope is that there will be something because I think understanding is growing, especially post-Covid, right? There are, there seem to be more people caring post-COVID. Some people haven't been able

to go back to work full time because their partner has long COVID, for example. We also see that as some politicians who've been around for a long time age, they become more aware of it themselves, which is, you know, sad that we need to have the lived experience to care about something, but also has a lot of potential i think my fear is that even if care is part of manifestos that again politicians as they've been doing for ages continue to misunderstand the problem and make it solely about care homes and paid care workers when family care is outstripped paid care workers three to one you know and our care home population is tiny compared with the

number of people at home and that's because people mainly want to stay in their home you know yeah i mean just would you mind just repeating that figure again that a care a carer would get um if they were doing because i was astonished by that it was 75 pounds wasn't it so um if you care you provide unpaid care for a loved one for 35 hours or more per week, and you earn money from other work that is £139 or less per week, you can have £76.75. So did you get that or were you earning too much to qualify for that? I was earning too much because I stayed at three days a week until fairly far into her terminal diagnosis. And then my mum, so my mum died before she hit pension age.

So she had pension savings. So when I resigned from my job, she was using that to support me, if that makes sense. Yeah. So she drew down on her pension. Exactly. Exactly. But, you know, she was in a very good job before she was sick. Right. OK, well, I'm sorry to ask again about that. Just people probably are really just astonished by what you're expected to live on. Can we just talk briefly about robot carers and about because this is sort of part grim, dystopian, but also to a degree it's already happening, isn't it? Well, there are lots of ways that technology is used in care that are really important and clever.

So, for example, nowadays we have hearing aids with full sensors. So you can get a text if your loved one has a fall, which is just so helpful for carers. Lots of practical things like that. But then, yeah, there are these more kind of dystopic, advanced care bots, things that are meant to be companions so i i had the pleasure to meet one in the book which was very cool um who are driven by ai and so they proactively communicate with you and learn you as they go rather than being like an alexa that is just command controlled right and then there are ones that are kind of like you know have bodies like humans i suppose and can lead um exercises and games and care homes but they can't wipe bottoms though can they they can't do

they have not managed to develop one there is a project that's trying to work on a on a kind of we would call it a robot but it's more like kind of mechanical arms that can be dexterous and sensitive enough to wash someone. But really interestingly, like the latest research out of Japan is that actually, because this is the leading country on it, actually they're not really being used in the way that is being suggested because, you know, funnily enough, technology breaks. Technology needs maintenance.

It needs users, right? We all know this. And yet we have this idea that it will save us on care, even though we know what technology is like in everyday life. So I think it's probably a bit of a red herring, but it is something that we really have to keep an eye on. Yeah, I think Fi's point is a really valid one, though, because essentially we are talking about wiping bottoms, aren't we? That is what we're talking about. Can we also just mention the joy of communal living, which I think is one of your is one of your proposals in the book

something that you actually draw great strength from and I think you've got a you had a relative who was a nun who I love this she wasn't particularly religious but she sort of joined up and actually had a had a rather a good time yeah so she I mean she's my great aunt I'm from uh my mum's family were Catholic historically and um yeah, I mean, she would have said she was she was very religious, but her motivation to be a nun was really about that lifestyle of not having to do the kind of drudgery that was assigned to women back in the 30s, 40s, 50s. But instead to live this life of, you know, community and teaching and learning and all of that. you know, community and teaching and learning and all of that. And, you know, it really struck me when me and my mum were very alone through her illness, you know, long, miserable nights, listening to her kind of the expressions of how unwell she was feeling and just miserable in every way. And it really struck me like, wow, you know, this is no way to live

this nuclear household where we're trapped in these walls. This is absolute madness. And so I talk in the book about ways we can address that. Of course, we're not all going to become nuns, and we're not all going to live in communes. But there is a model called co-housing, which involves living in your private home, a private home, but with shared spaces and with community time and with kind of practices in place that mean you have this network of care around you all the time. It's very practical and still maintains your sense of kind of privacy and possessions and so on. And I think there's a lot of hope for us in that. I think she's absolutely brilliant. That is Emily Kenway, the author of a book I heartily recommend called Who Cares? It is actually, I think she's absolutely brilliant. That is Emily Kenway, the author of a book I heartily recommend called Who Cares?

It is actually, I think, only out in hardback at the moment, but it will be out in paperback later on. And it's absolutely worth a look. Try and get it from the library if you can. I agree. I thought she was a really superb guest. And because there was absolutely nothing kind of either self-aggrandising or self-pitying in the way that she told her story. And it's just very helpful, isn't it, for somebody to expose the realities of care and be prepared to talk about their private story so that we can all have a little bit more of a think about what might happen to us or those around us.

And, you know, we have this conversation all of the time about aging jane don't we and it's so weird we celebrate modern medicine and its ability to keep us alive we celebrate people who've managed great ages but actually if that's what lies ahead for more and more people with fewer and fewer people available to care for them it's a really hellish prospect it really is and i think it's precisely because of that that we've dodged the whole conversation. The trouble is, the longer we leave it, the worse it's going to get.

And I think the Conservatives did try, was it Theresa May in 2017 in her manifesto, had an idea that would have helped to fund some sort of social care system properly. But it went down like a proverbial cup of gold sick with the electorate. It was called the dementia tax, I think, or the death tax. People went berserk. It's so problematic, Jane, this idea that lower taxes benefit society.

I mean, if we live longer, we just need more in the state coffers for all of us. So it seems to me a form of madness. But I can't believe that this country is doing any worse in this area than any other country. We've got plenty of listeners outside the UK. So if you're listening in a country that has tackled this and has maybe some solutions, please do let us know and let us know what the national conversation is in the place you live because in Britain we just keep putting it off and it means that people like Emily Kenway,

and she speaks so eloquently for those people who have to put in, and they do it out of love, as she said, and perhaps you do it better if you're doing it out of love. Who knows? But that's a brilliant point, isn't it, that actually it's family carers who are often left out of love who knows but that's a brilliant point isn't it that actually it's family carers who are often left out of oh yeah they are political and financial debate because you're focusing on paying workers to do the care but actually you know most of us would want to be

able to show love towards our family members towards the end of their life but whether or not we can do that without making our lives so difficult that we can't get back afterwards. You know, that's all part of the problem, isn't it? So I thought she was absolutely brilliant, really, really brilliant. Yes, she is. And she also, it isn't all doom and gloom, I should say. She absolutely makes the case for communal living

as potentially the way forward for all of us. And can I just briefly mention at the very end, because I'm so very grateful to Anna, and we will more on this by the way in July but I mentioned the charity Compassionate Friends last week wonder whether it was still going it absolutely is still going and it's a wonderful charity giving support to bereaved parents and their families so if you are in that unenviable position or you know somebody who might benefit, the charity Compassionate Friends is very much still around. And we actually also had an email from the woman who's currently running the Compassionate Friends.

So we will discuss, hopefully have her on the show in early July. So will you move in with me later on down the line? We were talking about moving into the BBC home for the Impartial London Firm. Our new place is the... i can't remember now the um it is the uh news uk home for the commercial and liberated and it's got bigger rooms jane has it got bigger rooms and a better canteen um yes and more adverts um you know i think you see sort of the temptation is to laugh about it, but actually, communal living does strike me as being... But then how do you have to set up whole places,

like towns for the elderly? Although, actually, the only way it would work, of course, is mixed social housing. And I think they have done it in some countries with older people and midlife people and young families. So I think that's quite a big thing in denmark is it okay right yeah so all of that but i think planning um and planning advantages what's the term i'm looking for planning permission planning permission uh if you could devise a way where you could get

some kind of a tax break on buying larger properties and converting them into smaller units within those properties. It's stuff like that that surely needs to start happening. I mean, I can see that you've very carefully dodged my kind invitation... I thought you hadn't spotted that. ..to move in together. And don't worry, because I think at the end of most podcasts, we cannot get down the escalators fast enough. So it wouldn't suit either of us.

But communal living, I find a very appealing prospect for old age. Just to be serious for a moment, when Emily mentioned in the podcast the whole business of you outsource it to, let's be honest, let's talk really honestly about what happens in Britain, a lot of care work, paid care work, is outsourced to poor, poorly paid immigrant workers. And as Emily said, who's looking after their elderly? It's not them because they're looking after ours.

And especially in countries like the Philippines, which are really decimated by losing that maternal figure. So the grandparents will look after the grandchildren so that the woman in between those generations can go and be the breadwinner and send the money back. And so it continues. But that is asking women to miss out on a huge part of their own family life.

All very grim, but it's real and it is so important. We do need to talk about it. One of your stories would be great. We are on Insta at Jane and Fee. If you'd like to tell your friends, we need more followers. We're trying to beat Matt Chorley. That is our aim. What's he got? We think we can do it possibly by Christmas, but need more followers. We're trying to beat Matt Chorley. That is our aim. What's he got?

We think we can do it possibly by Christmas. Christmas? But it's always good to have something to aim for. Oh, my God, you've said Christmas. Yep. Right, I'm off. OK. And Jane and Fi at Timestock Radio,

if you want to send us a longer email. Thank you for bearing with us. We'll talk to you again tomorrow. Have a lovely evening. Thanks. voiceover describes what's happening on your iphone screen voiceover on settings so you can navigate it just by listening books contacts calendar Double tap to open. Breakfast with Anna from 10 to 11. And get on with your day. Accessibility. There's more to iPhone.

Well done for getting to the end of another episode of Off Air with Jane Garvey and Fee Glover. Our Times Radio producer is Rosie Cutler and the podcast executive producer is Henry Tribe. And don't forget, there is even more of us every afternoon on Times Radio. It's Monday to Thursday, three till five. You can pop us on when you're pottering around the house or heading out in the car on the school run or running a bank.

Thank you for joining us and we hope you can join us again on Off Air very soon. Don't be so silly. Running a bank? I know, ladies. A lady listener. I'm sorry.