Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Will I be additionally bonkers tonight? (with Maggie Alphonsi)

Episode Date: August 30, 2023

Jane and Jane are talking caravan holidays, howling at the moon and actively helping the environment by eating chips.They're joined by Maggie Alphonsi, well known international women's rugby union player and World Cup winner with England in 2014. Her memoir 'Winning the Fight' is out now.If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiAssistant Producer: Kate LeeTimes Radio Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

VoiceOver describes what's happening on your iPhone screen. VoiceOver on. Settings. So you can navigate it just by listening. Books. Contacts. Calendar. Double tap to open. Breakfast with Anna from 10 to 11. And get on with your day. Accessibility. There's more to iPhone. I mean, God, yeah, my parents really did drag us around.

That's right, because I don't have to go to anything ever again. I've seen it all. Yeah, you've been everywhere. Bay of Tubbs Street, seen that. Oh, yeah. Also, there were teachers. So they got those really long holidays. So we used to just have a caravan yeah drag it around continental europe and if it was rainy i mean there were amazing holidays yeah and if it was raining in where we'd start in brittany or normandy you know we'd see the mulberry buildings then we'd just keep

driving south until it got a bit sunnier yeah it was lovely and they had time we didn't have any money but we had time yeah and it was great and they had time. We didn't have any money, but we had time. And it was great. And they would just sit in their deck chairs of an evening, read their books, have a barbecue. My brother and I would go and cause some trouble around the table tennis table. Yeah, probably later on.

Find some French boys to talk to at disco. Yeah, it was great. It was really, really fun. They were really fun holidays. And I think, I mean, I don't know anyone who gets to take their kids away for a month, you know, because... Do you think teachers still do it? Maybe teachers still do.

I went to school with some kids who were the kids of teachers and they did have caravans and did do that sort of thing, yeah. It's just really free. It was lovely. We just used to have to go to really damp chalets in North Wales. Oh. Well, I am complaining. I'm not complaining, I was a load of bollocks. It was lovely. We just used to have to go to really damp chalets in North Wales. Well, I am complaining. I was going to say, I'm not complaining.

I was a load of bollocks. Right. So, you know, it's a supermoon tonight. Do you know about this? No, I don't. It's a supermoon tonight. So that's like a double full moon. Will I be additionally bonkers this evening? Well, if you would like jane you can get on the train

with me after this come to brighton i'm going for a full moon swim where people get in the water and howl at the moon welcome to our fair the two janes are in session so tell me about this this is a real brighton tradition i've i've never done it before because you're quite new to my new yeah but last summer when i was house sitting for my friends and sort of scoping it out as a new place to move to, I was wandering along the seafront with my parents. It was a beautiful balmy night. Lots of people in the water, mainly women. I thought, that's fine.

They're doing some sort of communal thing. And then this noise started. I thought, what's that? And we walked over to the sea. They were all howling. Howling at the moon. That's a thing. It's a thing. It's a full moon swim. They were all howling. Howling? Howling at the moon. That's a thing. It's a thing.

It's a full moon swim. But why do you have to howl? It's just fun, isn't it? Okay. Primal. I mean, I know that if you ask... And then you go and get some chips. Yeah, right.

I had chips from the canteen for lunch. I was going to say no, because you could just have had salad. Oh, with the halloumi? With the halloumi and the flatbread. But then I thought, well, I might not have a hot dinner tonight. Yeah, and it seems a waste if they're there. Well, that's what I think. I'm actively helping the environment by having chips.

But I'm still relatively new to this building and the thrill of the canteen chip has not left me. I'm not sure it ever leaves you. No, OK. But I'm interested in the moon and the interest that women have in it because the moon is much more influential than i think we fully understand i mean in terms of like periods absolutely tides obviously um and people's behavior around a full moon well we're lunatics aren't we well that's it yeah yeah i mean if you ask somebody who works in a and e i think they will tell you that. Really? Yes, I think so. And if you ask the police about what happens on nights

when there's a full moon, there's absolutely an impact. We'll have listeners who know something about this, certainly more than I do. So I'll be very careful when I go for my swim later. Yes, do be very, very careful. We were talking last night about why, and we've been told, by the way, we can't talk as much as we did last night,

so apologies for anybody who stuck it out to the end of last night's podcast. On Marathon Chatterthon. Well, we're going to keep you relatively brusque. But the problem is we've got too many good emails. So I'm going to shut up in a minute and just get on to the emails. Jane and Fee at times.radio. Don't forget, Fee is back on Monday. But we were talking about why it is that in terms of the women's football team,

for example, England, nobody cares whether a woman's gay or not. They're just teammates and that's the end of that. That's not a big issue. Lesbians in women's football, not a problem. And why would it be? It certainly shouldn't be. Why it can't be the same in men's sport and why it just seems to be that so many men are fearful of being thought of as gay. And this is a really interesting email from a listener called Derry, who says, I'm an avid listener and I was listening yesterday when you were discussing the difference between men and women's football, notably the way that women's football fans, players and managers have no interest or hostility towards sexuality. It got me thinking because I'm a gay man who, without trying, is rather obviously not heterosexual. Imagine, I like the sound of Derry, he says, imagine a mixture of

Noel Coward and Bette Davis living at the birdcage. Being this way means I will get attention from the more primitive gene pools, most often from the male of the species. I have an idea that the reason men of this kind, ranging from cheeky chappy blokey blokes to Andrew Tate wannabes, is simply because they feel that a gay man will treat them the same way that they treat women. In other words, lesser than them in importance, freedom and ability. I've got no solution to this other than if we beta males and decent alpha males club together to do something. The only way that this vast group

could be organised is by somebody able, determined and patient. So if you're looking for a side project, maybe you two should have a go. Right, OK, well. Not sure either is as patient, but thank you for the vote of confidence. Yeah, thank you. Yes this patient but thank you for the vote of confidence

uh yeah thank yes thank you very much for the vote of confidence and uh yes an email it's a very it's a very important email and i'm really sorry that you've been on the receiving end of uh idiotic attention from people you describe as from the more primitive gene pools i like the andrew tate wannabes i know exactly who you're talking about there's another email as well on the same subject which um uh i thought was fascinating it's a long email so forgive me i won't read all of it out because we are on the clock tonight yes very much very firmly um dear jane and jane or jane and fee or fee and whomever inclusive email yep um so on the same subject puzzling about why men are sensitive about possibly being thought gay or by perhaps showering with someone on a team who is not heterosexual.

Two thoughts sprang instantly to mind, says our listener. Number one is disdain for anything perceived as feminine. So the idea that gay men are more like women and basically what our listeners are saying, their wives were lesser beings based on these comments that they would make about them not finding their mothers particularly interesting um the second part i think is is a more interesting observation and this is it's a female listener yeah i think it's a very interesting observation um is the male gaze since men are the perpetrators of the male gaze perhaps they have strong insight into what goes through their heads when they look at women and it's unpleasant to think some guy is looking at them with those thoughts in their heads it is likely not thoughts of respectful partnership that are

uppermost in their minds at such a time I think that's interesting but I also think that that's possibly not I don't think that's interesting, but I also think that that's possibly not, I don't think that's strictly a male thing. I think there's a female gaze that also isn't thoughts about, you know, respectful partnerships. No. But I do think that our listener is onto something. Yes.

When I think men know men. Yeah, and know what they're capable of. Yeah. But you are right, it's not unique to men. No. I mean, I think probably when you stop appraising either the same sex or the opposite sex, whatever you're into, is probably when you're, you know, beginning to peter out. Well, you know what I'm saying? I was going to say, most people have, keep a weather eye out for, well, it's just human nature.

I should hope so. Yes. And it doesn't mean you're being unpleasant. And I certainly wouldn't dream of saying, God forbid, I'd never say anything. But, you know, you can't help your mind straying in certain directions. It's just like appreciating a nice flock wallpaper. Please don't worry if you're sitting opposite me on the Northern Island a little bit later. I should be listening to

my audio book and my thoughts will be extraordinarily pure. Derek says, I'd like to chat on the pod on Tuesday about all things Women's World Cup. However, much as Mary Earps' achievements are impressive, I want to put a shout out for Katerina Johnson-Thompson as Sports Personality

of the Year. She's just won her second world championship in seven sports, of course, as heptathlon champion. Plus, Jane, she is a scouser, which I know elevates her somewhat in Garvey Towers. So amongst those calls for Mary, please spare some for another female sporting icon. It's a really good point, Derek. You're absolutely right.

And Katerina Johnson-Thompson is phenomenal because I think a few people had written her off wrongly because she's very much back and brilliant brilliant achievement great time fantastic yeah um we've been pulled up on a few things that we said yesterday I know I feel like you know we might have to say some sorry um one listener writes to say that the podcast never ever irritates her. Until. But we got her going yesterday with our we're less sexist in Britain chat. Yeah, okay.

And I do apologise if it came across that way. That was certainly not our intention. She says, when we march in Spain, you touch one of us, you touch us all. Where's your solidarity? Who cares if this particular case wouldn't happen in Britain? Since when do feminists only care about their own gaff? And this is true. Feminism is a global issue. And I have to say, when I went on the Women's March in DC, the very first Women's March, I've never felt more connected to half the whole population of

the world as I did that day. And it's an extraordinary feeling knowing that you are marching with half the world and all focus on one singular topic. She then gives a list of the sexist things from the UK that don't happen in Spain, which include national newspapers plastering naked women on page three, front pages of newspapers and magazines dissecting women's bodies or female politicians clothes or bodies, like the British media regularly does. Electing enough women, 44% of Spanish parliamentarians up to the last election in July are women,

compared to only 35% in the UK. Spain's much shorter democracy, she says, we've already had 61 ministers of government, so the UK's 53, presumably as women. They haven't had a female Spanish prime minister, have they? Not that I know of, no. I'm sorry. In Spain, all women are entitled to legal aid

when fighting for custody for their children in cases where there's an accusation of violence. And that includes migrant women without legal residency status, victims of gender-based violence. They're all given the same rights as legally resident women. Spain has taken huge leaps and strides because of the recognition of a machismo culture that still needs to be dismantled.

There is sexism everywhere and we battle it together. Rest on your laurels at your peril in the UK um we definitely don't rest on our laurels but thank you for pulling us up on the fact that we may have been making a few broad sweeps yeah of course so apologies for that i mean where would we be without the sweeping generalization i would literally be out of work well the podcast would only last two minutes wouldn't it then it really would um a quick one from Sevda. Thank you for this. Annoying words.

They say, I didn't even have to think even for a second. I hate people who use the word super instead of very. Please make it stop. I'm going to call it a very moon this evening. No, I do understand. It's when people say, oh, I'm super excited, super exciting. Yes, I'm with you. It's super good.

I totally get it. Please do stop that. Jane and Jane, we've had a listener giving us the German word for being pleasantly surprised by a donut when you expected a custard tart. Christina, who is a German listener but lives in Fiesnach of the Woods, says it's Krapfenfreude. I've got a suspicion that Christina might be pulling all of our collective legs with that. Well, I don't know.

Krapfenfreude. Can anyone corroborate that? I need a second source. But I like it, so I'm very happy to go with it. M says, apropos the listener's comment about the word fine, I was told by a man when I worked that the acronym fine, F-I-N-E, stood for effed off, Insecure, Neurotic and Emotional. Best said with pursed lips.

I could definitely do that. Fair enough. This doesn't work quite so well on radio because they sent us a picture, this listener. Dear Jane and Fi, I happened to be cleaning and tidying my crockery cupboard yesterday while listening to the show. I even painted it and recovered the shelves and it makes me very happy and calm. So I sent you a photo. I hope you like it.

I have to say, just looking at her calm cupboard was the most soothing thing I've done all day. Thank you for your images of your calm cupboard. I completely concur. It's a thing of beauty. It's sort of like, you know, they tell you to breathe 10 counts in and out. Just looking at Sally's cupboard made me feel like that. I don't know if you're on Instagram, but you should put yourself on, Sally, with endless images of your calm cupboard. Like ASMR for the eyes.

Yes, it would be. And spread calm throughout the social media world because it needs it. If I get one more ad for elasticated waist trousers, I swear I'll do time. I just wanted to mention this. It's a very serious email, a very important one, actually, from a listener, we don't need to mention her name,

about the interview that I did a couple of weeks ago with somebody I really like, Pat Nevin, the former professional footballer and writer, who has a son with autism. And this listener says, I hope I'm not too late to contribute but I do think my point is important our middle son who's 20 has profound learning disabilities as well as moderate physical disabilities he has no name diagnosis and it makes him hard it makes it hard to explain to others his and our difficulties. He struggles with all aspects of moderating sensory input

and can't understand or cope with the simplest social situation. His two brothers have grown into extraordinary young men and their childhood was so disruptive. Having friends over was hard. We couldn't have family days out unless we had respite. And then what if the film they want to see isn't on during that four hour slot or you'd planned a lovely walk but it was pouring with rain that afternoon. The opportunity then is gone for

another month. As with your guest Pat Nevin, our eldest son, now 22, is studying medicine and displays a level of empathy you only get when you've been there and you've got the badge. However, there is an area on which I slightly disagree with Pat. This theme does come up quite often and I always feel the same way. There's often a narrative of it was horrendous when they were diagnosed and we felt totally alone, but hey, look at them now doing really well. Well, yes, that is wonderful, but either I'm an awful person or they're really lucky. Yes, it was horrendous when our son was diagnosed and I bore the brunt of the visits, the tests,

while trying and failing to get a diagnosis, taking him to years of physio, etc., losing my career whilst attempting to maintain a normal life for his siblings, whilst my husband has been the major breadwinner. But the truth is, it's still pretty grim now, 20 years later. Our son hasn't made amazing progress. He hasn't made some of the realistic goals that we hoped, such as becoming toilet trained. We are still largely housebound unless we have respite. On a day-to-day basis, we are happy and we've learned to live with it.

But the grief of losing the child and the life we were meant to have never leaves you. I think that's a really brave email. And I really think it's important to read out because I suspect that correspondence speaks for many people in that situation. There often isn't a neat little ending to situations like that. And I just really appreciate your honesty. Thank you for sending it in. And it's never too late, by the way way because people listen to these podcasts at all times I mean there'll be years from now perhaps in outer space that people are listening to this and yes if you're

an alien who can speak English make contact janeandfee at times.radio I'm beginning to feel that Britain's the only country that hasn't been to the moon now practically everyone has been um we're really getting feeling left out well I am I mean you know the Irish bean uh not not yet but it won't be long will it if someone said to you do you want to go to the moon would you go um no I wouldn't but that's because I only have an o level in biology grade c so I think realistically I'd be a poor a poor astronaut but what maybe just you could broadcast from there yes I often think that it won't be long factory in Darmstadt yes the factory in Darmstadt where I think I'm sure they still talk of nothing

else but my visit um it would be good and I think it probably will happen quite soon you know one of those visits to space that there was about mother and daughter combo went up recently it was brilliant will they not send a poet or um somebody who can perhaps bring it to life in a creative way for the rest of us on the experience that can't be far off can it i would totally go to space would you sorry i was meant to ask you a funny thing normally says now you can ask me yeah would you like to go to space jane i'd love to go to space, Jane I mean, I sort of If someone says to me, do you want to do this thing? My general response is, yes please

Which is usually a good thing But sometimes not always a good thing Let's be realistic, you're often asked Would you like to fly business class to LA to interview a film star? You're not going to say no to that Don't go business class, I'm in a middle seat in a middle row At the back of the plane But I do get to go to nice things It it's true and so yeah why would you say no

except sometimes i think um i'm more capable than i am of doing the things that people asked me to do i went heli skiing in alaska and i'm a very bad skier and so i was with some blokes who were very good right and they had to just leave me in the snow to be eaten by Wolverine. What kind of people were they? Well, a very handsome pilot came and got me in a helicopter, so it was okay. She's got an anecdote for every occasion, this woman. But I did have to sit on my own in the snow for a few hours. Was it cold?

It was very cold. But I just thought, if someone says, do you want to go to Alaska Heliskiing? You don't say, no thanks. Well, you don't, clearly. There'll be more from jane malkeran's tomorrow on our fair and indeed on the live radio show because it's we can look forward to the time saturday magazine tomorrow i look always look forward to that because partly because it's near the end of my working week also because it's really really good so that's tomorrow our big

guest this afternoon is maggie alfonsi who is an eng Rugby Union World Cup winner. She's also part of ITV's punditry team at the Men's Rugby Union World Cup, which starts, it's slightly coming up, coming up fast actually, it starts on September the 8th with an absolutely cracking opening game between the hosts France and New Zealand. So loads to talk to Maggie about. She's also written a memoir called Winning the Fight. She is a woman of color from edmonton green and probably not on paper likely to have been a player of rugby union so she's got a fantastic story to tell and first of all we chatted about the forthcoming men's rugby world cup yeah the host nation france who are you know currently ranked um third in the world up against new zealand who are ranked fourth in the world um and yet the pressure is on france but france have

the good chance of winning that world cup but then you can't count out the likes of south africa um obviously um well ireland who are currently number one in the world so the list goes on it should be a competitive tournament obviously a lot of the discussions tend to be around england and how they're doing our home nations i was about to say the list goes on but your list of potential winners didn't include england i noticed so because they're not doing very well are they i hate to say it look i'm a huge england fan and i always want them to do well as a team but i guess most recently their performances haven't been great they've only won one game in the last six and uh they had a big defeat against Fiji on Saturday at Twickenham. And that was quite a dark time for English rugby

because everyone expected them to do well, especially going into a big tournament such as the Rugby World Cup. And England, they're in a pool. They just have to get out of their pool and then aim to get through to the quarterfinals and see what unfolds in front of them. But I think many English fans are very disappointed frustrated as well and you know naturally so the players are um and the coaching staff so i guess all we can do is support them

but at the same time we expect you know a lot from these these players to produce when it matters okay be honest what would be a good performance for this England team at this World Cup? Jane, I love that. You just, you called me out there, my honesty. So I think what would be good for the England team if all goes to plan and they start to put in the performances, they get to the semi-finals. So in their pool, a big team they've got to play against is Argentina. That's their first match. And then they've got the likes of Japan and Samoa um England have some key players missing and by that I mean their current England captain Owen Farrell has had a full match ban so he's missing the first two games of the Rugby World Cup and another player Billy Villapola

was missing the first game of the Rugby World Cup as well so that's significant in terms of you know key individuals who lead that side and look if England get out of their pool, then they'll meet likely a Wales or Australia, which both teams have had their ups and downs going into this Rugby World Cup. So I guess anything can happen. So I guess, have I just sat on the fence there? Should I get off the fence?

Well, I mean, the odds, I think, on England winning are, I mean, I'd win quite a lot of money if I were to put England on, you know, put money on England to win, wouldn't I? Let's be honest about it. I'm being very honest. Yes, you would win a lot of money.

I mean, look, the last time England did well when not being perceived to do well was in the 2007 campaign for the Rugby World Cup when it was held in France. England didn't do well in the pool stages. They got beaten by South Africa. But then they managed to get out of their pool. And then they played Australia in the quarterfinals, which

people didn't think they were going to beat. They beat them. Then they beat France in the in the semifinals, which were the host nations. And then they got to the final. I mean, lost against Africa. So I guess everyone's hoping that that 2007 campaign can inspire them to do well. All right. You just can't help yourself being strangely optimistic about England's prospects. Let's just rewind because there must have been a time early on in your life when the prospect of you sitting at a national radio station,

actually talking to another woman about men's rugby union as a pundit, it would have been completely unthinkable. So much has changed in in your when you're working life actually hasn't it you're absolutely right so when I think about women diversity full stop and seeing women in um roles that were previously dominated by men I'm so proud to think how much it's changed and we're talking about as female athletes we talk about in journalism etc um there's been so much growth so if I look back to when I first started especially when we talk about sport there was not a lot of women or girls playing rugby union in particular um it had its perceptions its stereotypes and when I found the sport it was quite unique it was because of a

female peer teacher a lady called Lisa Burgess, who's Welsh. And she was the one who got me into the sport. I mean, my behaviour was quite bad, but she found the strength, you know, from that sport that would fit with me. I mean, I want to talk about rugby in class because there's no doubt it's still a massive issue. It's a huge factor in the, well, it indicates why certain people would never play the game and why some people absolutely always would play it you grew up in edmonton green in london north london it's near brent sort of is it west of brent north where it's sort of more near wolfenstone and topham yeah okay yeah so not far from the the london stadium that's correct right okay i've got

you now um and you were not a likely let be honest, you were not a likely player of rugby union. Had you not met that teacher, you wouldn't be here now, would you? Yeah, you wouldn't, I guess you wouldn't identify a person like me. So a girl, person of colour, from a very low social economic background um finding a sport like rugby union that let's be honest that's it that was a unique thing so the fact that I found it from what was a quite a hard you know neck of the woods of north London in Edmonton Green found the sport was just by chance and you know I say it again it saved my life um I was on very much a spiral used to get into a lot of fights hence the title of the book winning the fight um and I guess that was my my way of life you know trying to prove to others that I am better than them um and unfortunately I didn't really know a way out

and and rugby really did come at the right time to you know that we talk about values respect discipline it brought that to me and I and I found I guess I found my way out would it do you think still happen to a young woman of color growing up in Edmonton Green could they have a similar rugby union trajectory to the one that you've had no um at this very moment that's the problem yeah if i if we really look at it in in detail i don't think a young girl from edmonton green would find rugby unless they had again an individual who committed themselves to helping them find the sport um look there's plenty of rugby clubs out there and now there's many clubs that have women and girls sections which is fantastic but how do we ensure that we get that link between schools and clubs how do we ensure that the stereotype of rugby is is destroyed you know people don't think it's a sport for

x y and z actually they see it as a sport for me you know regardless of their background or upbringing etc so i think we still have a way to go with that. You know, the optics are slowly changing. Yes, let's be honest, it is slowly changing. And you're a big part of that, actually. You are, aren't you? I like to think so. Look, my job is just to be,

I don't like to use the term role model because I'm just being who I am and trying to be authentic with the hope that there is a girl in Edmonton Green or a girl in in edmonton uh green or a young boy in edmonton green who goes i i don't know i like that sport and i really feel like it i can see myself in it you know people use that quote if you can't see you can't be it and you know whether others sort of see that as true if you can see somebody who almost uh resembles you you feel like there's a there's an opportunity to find your way

and if there isn't you still think I need to break down those barriers have you been back to your old school um I have I haven't been back to my old school recently I have definitely been back since I left um because my my old PE teachers were still there and I went back to do a talk um you know I was still on my journey at that time and it's really hard talking to young people where you go I'm still on my journey and because they think you're 110 they do they think your journey journey's end is where you're like that no I'm sure you've got absolutely nothing to worry about carry on but I had yeah I went back to my school sort of soon after I I left just to sort of share my story where I was up to that point um but I have been back to the area quite frequently you know my

mother still lives there so um and I still see many people who were part of my upbringing, if I'm honest, in terms of other young kids who lived on the estate. And it's interesting, you know, for me, I still see that level of deprivation and frustration. And that's why I kind of make it my goal that I want to try and be a visible role model. So those who come from those backgrounds

or different areas think that there's always a way out or there's other opportunities that you can, you know, achieve your goals. VoiceOver describes what's happening on your iPhone screen. VoiceOver on settings. So you can navigate it just by listening. Books, contacts, calendar, double tap to open. Breakfast with Anna from 10 to 11. And get on with your day. Accessibility. There's more to iPhone. The rugby union pundit and World Cup winner with England, Maggie Alfonsi.

Her book is out now. It's called Winning the Fight. Some people listening, Maggie, will be a bit concerned about rugby, not just not being safe, not being safe enough for many of the professional players. We'll all enjoy watching it at the Men's World Cup. But would you, you have two very young children, would you let them play the game?

So yes, I would. So my two children, one is a little boy who's almost going to be three years old, and the other one is seven months. And the reason why I say yes is because there's so much work that's been done right now to try and make the sport safer. And I think that's why I really believe in the sport. And, you know, when we talk about making the sport safe, there's other strong aspects of the sport that you get a lot out from it. So for me, when I say it saved my life,

it's because it gave me the discipline, the respect. I've made friends for life. It's pretty much given me a life, you know, and that's why I think it's really important that we take away the positives from the sport. We see that the sport is doing its very best to make sure it's safe, which it is safe. And at the community level,

as of starting of next season, they're reducing the tackle height so that there should be less head contact incidents. And even when you watch elite rugby now, you see there's quite a few stoppages, which is about trying to avoid the head collision. OK, can you explain the tackle, the high tackle thing? Because this is something that Owen Farrell fell foul of. Is that right? Yeah, that's correct. um so jane i don't know how long you got here but um so don't make it too technical so um yeah with regards to the changing in rules right now so players obviously can't make contact with head opposition head when making a tackle so his shoulder um made direct impact to uh

opposition players head so that's a high level of danger, they say. And obviously, they say there's no mitigation. So when they say that, that means the opposition player didn't duck or he didn't duck. The problem with the Owen Farrell scenario is that it went back and forward. So he got given a yellow card, then they went to the review process, then he got given a red card, and then he went to judiciary, and they said, no, it's a yellow card and then world rugby who are the governing body that rule rugby across the world um put out an appeal and

then they went back to red card so for fans who don't know rugby that is incredibly confusing right what is going on red card yellow card ban no ban and if i'm honest maggie that is what stops me being a fully paid up fan of rugby union because I don't really get the rules. I didn't play it because girls didn't play it when I was growing up. And I never know why they're blowing the whistle. And I know you're brilliant at speaking in plain English when you're on the telly with ITV,

but it does seem like a closed world to a lot of people. And you raise a really fair point. That's always been my worry about the sport um there are too many rules we're adding new rules or we're adjusting current rules again to make it safer but to maybe speed up the game and for those who haven't been brought up in the sport will look at it and go what on earth is going on um and i guess that's why it's important to have such a range of people, a diverse range of people who can talk about the sport in different ways

that appeals to others. And actually, how do we make our sport much more entertaining, much more flowing? You know, I don't know cricket that well, but I've really got into it over the ashes during the men's and women's ashes. Same with football. You know, that's a sport,

I'm a big Arsenal fan, but I've got into it more i've got into it more especially with the women's football world cup i absolutely loved it and the rules are you know there's less rules than there are in rugby so i think that's a big key thing for rugby how do we make it to a point where it's entertaining it's less complicated and don't need the referee to have to explain everything about what's going on i'm glad you mentioned the women's world cup because for the final i did something i thought i would never do which is that i went to a bar with my two daughters neither of whom have got even a mild interest in men's football and we all three of us massively keyed up for the

biggest sporting event any of us could ever remember. Of course, it didn't go quite the way we intended, but it was a wonderful moment. We need to just lock that one away, don't we? It's a great memory. We should bottle it. It was absolutely amazing to see the interest globally, but obviously here in England, and the Euros, what they did in the Euros was superb.

But I love the fact that the amount of people that gravitated to what they were doing the sad thing is we get to the final and then it's overshadowed by one person which which takes away the achievement of those fantastic athletes on the field but at least we can still say what an amazing tournament spain made history england got to the final some were doubting them to get to the final and they absolutely did it. Just means the future of, I'd say, women's football, women's sport is in a really good place. Can we just talk about what it's like to lose a World Cup final?

Because you've won one, but you also know what it's like to lose. I think you lost two, is that right? Yeah, thanks Jane for that. But you've got the ultimate triumph. So I'm going to say as a civilian that maybe that made winning all the sweeter, but I don't know. So take us into the dressing room after you've lost a World Cup final. Yeah, it's hard.

It's really hard. You know, when we talk about World Cup cycles, it's a four-year process. It's almost like Olympics, you know. You start off at the beginning of day one and then you keep going until the final four years is over and you hope that you get to the final and so i understand what the lionesses went through um the preparation the the challenges people getting injured people getting disciplined as well um but when you get to the final that all you can think about is doing a good job over that 80 or 90 minutes and then all you can think about is doing a good job over that 80 or 90 minutes

and then all you can think about is that you're going to come away with the result that you want but when that whistle blows there's a part of you that struggles to believe it there's a part of you struggles to think that okay there's what there's no more extra time or there's no more what penalty shootouts this is it that's it I've got to now wait for another four years and that I mean when we lost in 2006 I honestly believe that we were going to win it and then we lost and then I just felt I was still young so I felt quite confident that yeah I'm going to come back again in four years time in my England team we're going to win that yeah we did it we did come back but sadly after that four years get into another rugby world cup final in 2010 in england in front of some good fans and it was against new

zealand when we lost there and that was only by three points i i was absolutely devastated because i just thought we we can do this you know we were very well funded we had the right level of engagement across the country we just didn't do it on the on at the time when it needed to matter you know when you had to pull it out of the bag it was hard really hard so did that make 2014 was it the best moment of your sporting life 2014 weird as it may sound i would like to say the best sporting moment for myself was actually singing the national anthem in 2010 in our own country in that final and the only reason I'm saying that is because women's sport was not getting acknowledged before

that there was barely interest in women's sport and we had at that time 14,000 people come to watch our world cup final I mean that was that was unbelievably rare uh let alone come for to watch women's football so to have that for me was a turning point in in women's sport but then getting to the final again in 2014 and then winning it you know people go to me what did it feel like after that final and i always say it was just a relief yeah that's interesting you know to to spend a threatening 12 years of your life trying to get to this this 80 minute match that is only going to last effectively you know the moment after last 60 seconds you know it was it gave you gave you

all and it wasn't just me obviously all of my teammates so when we finally did it we finally did it we finally got to go up on that stage hold that gold medal around our neck it felt so special but I also felt for the opposition the Canadian side because I knew what it felt like to lose and I actually went over to many of the players and just shook their hand like you know many of the Spanish players did to the lionesses it's a hard place because at some stage we've all been there yeah well we haven't all been there that's the whole point most of us love sport I certainly do but I could never ever hope to have a clue what it's like to play in a world cup final so it's great to get your insight you are now um an rfu blazer i love this

because you're kind of one of the buffton tuftons aren't you who sits there and spouts things and have you actually got a blazer i i have a blazer um but the blazer that i got yeah we should explain that you are a member of the rfu rfu council yes that's correct so the blazer that i got um well you know so you get given a blazer and the blazer that i was given was a member of the RFU? RFU Council, yes, that's correct. So the blazer that I got, so you get given a blazer and the blazer that I was given back at the time, back in 2016, was a men's blazer, a male's blazer and it was way too big and I had to go and get it tailored,

which didn't fit. So I do have a blazer, but I now wear my own blazer that fits in with the colour scheme. Okay. So yes, to answer your question, I have a blazer. Yeah, you've just gone maverick. And I just wonder, for people listening,

they might think you're sort of six foot two or something. You're not actually that much bigger than me. I think you're five foot three or four, is that right? Yeah, on a good day, I could be six foot, but actually, yeah, today I am five foot three. That's my real official height. Okay, so you don't have to be a particular size to excel at rugby union no so look this is why i love the sport because you know we say it quite a lot with our strap line

it's a sport for all sizes all shapes um it doesn't matter what size or shape you are there is a position for you and and i think that's what makes the sport quite special you know i came into sport i had big arms and big legs and at school I got bullied but then I came into rugby and they were like wow we'll find a position for you you're going to be a good rugby player and that was special yeah you're a flanker and again for those of us who aren't certain what does a flank what's your job as a flanker yeah so I would play number seven so for those don't know rugby there's eight big forwards on the on the pitch at that time and I would be one of the uh they call loose forwards there's sort of two on the on the pitch at that time and uh i would be one of the uh they call loose forwards there's sort of two of them a six and a seven and then you've got

your number eight as well who play on the back of a scrum so the best way to explain a seven is they have no structure no rules they just run around the aim is to tackle as many people steal as many balls and score as many tries i think hopefully i've summed it up i mean look we to be honest we're the best players on the pitch let's just leave it yeah okay you've almost sold it to me really enjoyed talking to maggie alfonsi she was great actually jane she was one of those people that you just think oh i could talk to this woman for hours on end because rugby you know it is class does play a huge part in rugby and rugby union talking about not rugby lee and it's a plain fact that we probably have the best team on earth england if we could get a proper cross-section of society

playing the women and the men's game because you know we've got we've just got so much sporting talent in this country but rugby's kind of unknown world to so many people what growing up in liverpool did you did you have a lot of union and league or was it mainly league it was actually funnily enough it it wasn't League. That's more Lancashire, Yorkshire. So in fact, the part of Liverpool I grew up in has its own rugby union club. And I went to a rugby union school, but it's relatively rare in that part. And rugby league is a much faster game, isn't it, with fewer players?

That's right, isn't it? That's the difference. They don't have... They didn't have line lineups or scrummages it is faster there is definitely faster my dad used to coach rugby union so I should know that

but I'm very bad at knowing that his team did teach me to wolf whistle when I was eight we'll go on then let's end with that oh god you really want

me to wolf whistle well you've teed it up okay hideous right I'm beginning to miss me we'll be back tomorrow

take care I'm beginning to miss Fee. We'll be back tomorrow. Take care. We're bringing the shutters down on another episode of the internationally acclaimed podcast Off Air with Jane Garvey and V Glover. Our Times Radio producer is Rosie Cutler and the podcast executive producer is Henry Tribe. But don't forget that you can get another two hours of us every Monday to Thursday afternoon here on Times Radio.

We start at 3pm and you can listen for free on your smart speaker. Just shout Play Times Radio at it. You can also get us on DAB Radio in the car or on the Times Radio app whilst you're out and about being extremely busy. And you can follow all our tosh behind the mic and elsewhere on our Instagram account. Just go onto Insta and search for Jane and Fee and give us a follow. So in other words, we're everywhere, aren't we, Jane? Pretty much everywhere.

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