Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Wimpy and the queen's funeral

Episode Date: August 9, 2023

Jane and Fi have been in touch with the creator of the taxidermy sensation: Stoned Fox. They also ask the big questions: are man buns sexy? And what happened to Wimpy?They're joined by Dr Liz O'Riordan, the consultant breast surgeon who's been through cancer herself. Her memoir is called ‘Under The Knife’Follow us on Instagram! @janeandfiIf you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail].  Assistant Producer: Megan McElroyTimes Radio Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

If you manage to stick with us for 50 minutes yesterday... 50 minutes! You deserve some sort of medal. I think you do, yeah. We're sorry about that. This will be shorter and perkier. Yeah. So it's kind of a false economy, isn't it? Because most people kind of go, know bonus bonus 20 minutes i don't know whether they do you know saying no no short is sweet um so um thank you for all the taxidermy

content and as we said uh on the radio show today um we are going to talk to i've lost the email now or have i to the kind of founding mother of bad taxidermy. So here she is. Here she is, Adele. Adele. Yeah. Do you want to read this? So this is from Adele Morse, who says, I couldn't resist writing in after hearing you talk about bad taxidermy.

I see your sad otter and raise you my most well-known taxidermy piece, Stoned Fox. Named by the Russian press for his bemused and slightly confused look, I made him around nine years into my taxidermy career. Bloody hell, Adele, what was some of your... What was year three?

God! And when I finished and he had dried in a more unfortunate way than I could have predicted, I assumed he was a creation only a mother could love. I love that line. I put him for sale online many years later, where his truly bonkers journey began. And it is.

So he went to Russia. They've done a press tour there. He was met, and Adele was met, with many death threats, protests, and an overwhelming amount of attention. The death threats aren't good, are they? They aren't very good at all. Well, also, especially because that's absolutely at Adele, isn't it?

Because obviously Stone Fox is ready dead. Outside of Russia, he's been on a skydive. He's met Fatboy Slim at Glastonbury, haven't we all? And he's been on more adventures than I could dream of myself over the last 12 years. I was asked to be his handler on a recent ad shoot in Madrid. So, look, we basically had to book Adele for the show tomorrow. And I very much hope we'll be able to bring you some of that interview in the podcast too. She does say, I've been doing taxidermy now for 18 years and I've been a vegetarian for 22.

So I only work with animals who've already checked out before we meet. Well, God alone knows what would happen to this fox before you got your mittss on him adele or her uh we will definitely uh we've got some questions for you let's say that way but thank you so much for taking the time to contact us much much appreciated and to uh everybody including jemma who wants to know which half of the giraffe it is from earlier pictures sent in if you go on the instagram you just have to scroll across because we've got five or six different pictures so if you go to the main one i think the first one is sad otter but if you scroll through and you just swipe to the left and then you'll be able to see many

other pictures that have been sent in by our gorgeous listeners yeah do you think when there were meetings ahead of times radio being established that this was the kind of content they imagined? Very much so. Do you? I do, yes. Well, let's move on to an email entitled Wimpy and the Queen's Funeral. Dear Jane and Fi, I had to write, after hearing your question about whether the Wimpy chain still exists, yes, it does. And on the Queen's Funeral last year, I found myself in one.

I had a brown Derby dessert. Well, it's what she would have wanted. I think we can all agree on that. They were a lifesaver, as it was the only restaurant open on Ashford High Street in Middlesex where I could use the facilities. This was a stone's throw from the

A30. My husband and I had stood for hours waiting for Her Majesty's funeral cortege to come past. We then spent a further hour waiting for the roads to reopen. Although we were only 20 minutes from home, we were quite desperate for the facilities and for some refreshment. It was surreal sitting there, eating and watching a large screen of the remainder of the TV coverage being displayed with subtitles. I was thinking about both the Queen and

my late mother. In the 1970s, it was the only fast food restaurant that I was taken to just off Romford Market. I remember being able to order a burger which we never had at home. I was happy to eat it with my knife and fork as hot food was never allowed to be eaten with mere fingers. My mother had an omelette and chips. Just two snapshots of my life etched into my memories, says Caroline. Caroline, thank you for telling us about your wimpy brown derby on the day of the Queen's funeral and indeed that rather lovely memory of your mum defiantly ordering an omelette and chips despite being in a restaurant that offered her the option of a burger. Well, you see,

I love the detail of the cutlery as well because that rings true in my childhood as well. And mine, actually. It was just considered simply a little American, wasn't it? A little bit vulgar. Just a bit vulgar. Yes, and very, very unhygienic. And I think, actually, it wouldn't be giving away too many family secrets to say that there is still pizza

being eaten with a knife and fork in some generations which I thought my mum and dad used a knife and fork for pizza I'm glad we're not alone and there were a couple of really lovely emails about our reluctance to travel and this one comes from Claire in Southsea in Hampshire Jane Hampshire Hampshire no hemp Hampshire no imagine if I took the Mickey with a liver puddle Ian have a go can you do one no I wouldn't want to you can't do one well I wouldn't want you can't I know I'm saying that I mean I can but I'm saying that I wouldn't want to be nasty I can do Hampshire. Because it's nasty. Anyway, Claire, welcome aboard.

I was interested to hear you both talk about how you probably now won't get to visit far-flung countries. I found that realisation quite empowering. During lockdown, one of the benefits was not feeling that pressure to have to book things like trips and holidays. We had no choice but to sit and take each day as it came. And since then, like you both, I've realised that I'll never see all of the world and I'm happy with that. At 64, I'm fortunate to have travelled a lot in my life.

But now I am content visiting places in the UK and travelling around France by train, which we did earlier this year. And it was far less stressful than flying. I'm not saying I'll never go abroad again, but I no longer have that pressure to book that annual holiday or big trip. And with the world ever changing and with my eye on my carbon footprint, I'm relieved to have taken that pressure off myself. And I think you're right, actually, Claire. It is empowering. I mean, in no sense do I feel kind of disappointed

that I probably won't get to see large parts of the world anymore? I feel relieved. It's just a really nice feeling. That's not going to happen. It's too far away. It's too stressful. And to be honest, I'm just too scared. I'm fearful of going too far from home. And I like that feeling. It gives me a sense of certainty. And that's just a massive change. Or is it? Well, you were quite an intrepid traveller, weren't you?

Well, I've travelled, yes, I have travelled a lot. So I suppose you can say that it's an itch that's been scratched. But it's also just a lovely thing to realise that I just don't ever have to consider that again. And Michael Dennis says the same thing. How do you feel, Michael, about having two Christian names in your name? I'm a 50-year-old man, says Michael Dennis says the same thing. How do you feel, Michael, about having two Christian names in your name? I'm a 50-year-old man, says Michael Dennis. I've never been a big international traveller, no foreign holidays growing up,

and since then I've been abroad a small handful of times. And I've recently entertained the thought that there are many countries I'll never visit, and I'm perfectly content with that. It's not that I'm insular or incurious, simply perhaps not curious enough. I'm with Philip Larkin, who said, I wouldn't mind seeing China if I could come back the same day. Actually, yeah, that really would suit me. I'd definitely do that.

Oh, there is another Wimpy's on Beckenham High Street. That says Poppy. Thank you very much for that, Poppy. So how is Wimpy keeping on going if they're only about... Because they used to be on every high street. You could guarantee there was a McDonald's and a Wimpy. We had to go into Liverpool for the Wimpy, and I think there was also one in Southport, but we didn't have one too close to home.

It was quite a big thing. Guns. Oh, guns. As an Australian, says Yvette, I'm as mystified as you when it comes to American gun culture. I run a group educating parents about safety and comfortably using a baby sling or a carrier. The most horrifying how-to video I ever stumbled across on YouTube was a mother showing others how they could resolve the problem of wearing a baby and a holstered gun at the same time. A question I have never been asked about and hope to never live in a country where it is. And she's actually included the link

to that YouTube video. I mean, that is just, I can't watch that. No, I wouldn't want to watch it. I really wouldn't. Our guest today is Liz O'Riordan and we'll get to her relatively quickly because we don't want to take up too much time today because yesterday's edition of Off Air was a little cumbersome, I think it's fair to say. Somewhat unwieldy, a little flappy around the edges. Is it like Barbie? A bit too much belly fat in yesterday's edition. But I don't know, did you see Channel 4 News last night by any chance?

But I don't know. Did you see Channel 4 News last night by any chance? They have I mean, they sometimes do the most astonishing reports from parts of the world that the rest of the news that I normally watch doesn't seem to get to. And they sent a reporter to Malawi to look at people with cancer in Malawi. And it was they were going out with palliative care teams to visit people. And honestly, it was one of those reports which I recommend to people because, you know, if you're fortunate, you're in good health, you will just think afterwards, I am never going to complain about my life ever again. There was one poor lady who had mouth cancer. And basically, the people in her village had ostracized her, they just didn't want anything to do with her. And she was on her own. And the only people she, whoever got close to her, were health professionals who couldn't see her very often. And honestly, it was utterly heartbreaking.

I only mention that because I've got an email here about lung cancer, because we mentioned that yesterday, didn't we? This is from Jane, who says, I listened with sadness to the letter you read out from the listener with lung cancer. My lovely mum was diagnosed with it and died eight months later after her diagnosis in 2010. Throughout her illness, I was horrified that the assumption was that she was a smoker and was somehow getting her comeuppance.

This was communicated to me explicitly and implicitly by doctors and also by friends. My mum didn't ever smoke. However, even if she had, she would not have, quotes, deserved to get cancer. It's such a nasty disease. Anyone with it deserves empathy and care and not judgment. And that is absolutely right. Thank you, Jane. Now, we've got a little bit of a telling off from Joe,

who's joining us from Great Dunmo in Essex. bit of a telling off from joe who's joining us from great dunmo in essex and i'm very glad that you two uh uh reliving the dreams of aztec camera and oblivious and introducing your son to them well done you but here comes the complaint now says joe i listened this morning on my dog walk to the end of monday's podcast hoping and praying that you would not let me down. Oh, and I know what's coming. Yes, and I'm sad to say that we did. There was the inevitable, predictable mention of the Lionesses scraping through against Nigeria.

Well, we did say they'd scrape through. I will allow some leeway due to Pat Nevin being your guest. However, there was, and this is in capitals, absolutely no mention of the England Roses winning silver in the Netball World Cup. And I just sort of knew that you wouldn't mention it. Not only did we win silver, but Helen Houseby, the England goalscorer, won player of the tournament. I'm now waiting for the Sports Personality of the Year finalist list to see if she's in the top ten. Can you imagine if a man had won player of the tournament

at the Football, Rugby, Cricket World Cups? They would be a shoo-in. Anyway, netball rant over. You could do worse than interview gave a mentor on your podcast, just saying, and I think we should look into that. On other matters, in a school PTA line dancing event raffle, I want a plastic bottle of green fly spray. Oh, that's good. So we can't top

that, Jo, and I do apologise and I have to confess, having just been so dreadful at netball as a child, it's not a sport that I have enjoyed watching actually in adult life. So I apologise for that.

I just don't have enough of a sense of the brilliance of the netball team at the moment. So that's my bad and I'm going to educate myself. Well, they were very good. I should be deeply ashamed that I didn't mention it because I did watch some of the final on Sunday. In fact, I'm in that awful category of person who watched until it became obvious that England were not going to win.

And then I turned off. I've got better things to do. I must put the tea on, I thought. And I felt really guilty sneaking off. What I will say, and I don't want to offend our emailer, clearly England are very good, just not quite as good as Australia. Steady yourselves, everyone.

It's just the game itself. I really don't want to be offensive. I just don't think netball is a great game, just because you can't move with the ball. So it's just, it's almost like it was a game invented for girls.

So they couldn't get up to, they couldn't run around a lot. Yes, sort of slightly. Maybe I'm completely wrong. Maybe netball wasn't invented with that intention. But it's not, it's basically basketball without free movement with the ball. Isn't it? When you catch the ball, you can't move. You have to stay still and pass it. I'm sorry. I did play netball at school i'm sure fiona you must have been a

center because i was a center oh i mean if i ever really got on the team i was so small by comparison to my year group jane i mean it was just you know so so nobody wanted me on the team and i wasn't very athletic i mean i know you have my you now because of my incredible athletic build. Well, you do just swim. I mean, you're not the biggest, but you do swim. I was a reasonably good centre. But then it's crazy, Jane, because

I didn't run at school, but I love watching athletics. Oh yeah, I like that. I didn't play football at school, but I'm really enjoying watching the Lionesses. So this is terribly kind of self-indulgent of us. But, Jo, basically, I'm really sorry. We are sorry. We are very sorry.

And you're absolutely right. If England come second in the Women's World Cup, we will most certainly reference it. If they come second to Australia, I'll be absolutely livid. And that is still possible. Mind you, they've got to get past Colombia. I'm not taking anything for granted.

Can I do one very, very quick email before you go into today's guest? Dear Fee and Jane, if and when the penny-farthing discussion draws to a conclusion, could we possibly move on to the issue of man buns? I listened to your show the following morning while doing yoga in the kitchen. Thank you, David. Well, David, it's good to have you on board but the answer is no do you take a firm stance on man bonds then because i'm kind of indifferent i think if a man wants about i'm very jealous because i've got really thick wavy hair that couldn't be bond i think when i

look at a man with a man bun i want to see what his hair looks like when it's not in a bun and i spend too much time thinking why don't you just cut it off because I you know you're putting it up in a bun all the time so uh I find it just I don't know I think I like it just because of the association with with cake do you I think really presumably that's is that why they're called buns because they look a bit like a bun it must be it well I suppose. Yeah. I don't know why. I mean, I don't spend an awful lot of time thinking about man buns, actually.

I'm not against them, I have to say. But do you think that men have the same kind of fantasy placed upon them, that a man in a man bun, you know, a little bit like when the secretary takes off the glasses and takes the pin out of her chignon and shakes her hair around

and it's super sexy. Do you think that's why they're putting their hair up? So we can imagine taking it down. We can imagine taking it down, pulling out the pins. But I am doing a little bit of that. You just have. Yeah. Right.

Maybe it's time I read out aloud again from the new book by E.L. James. Which I've still got in my drawer. I noticed it today so next time we're in need of a bit of light entertainment I'll pick a page at random and just read a couple of sentences I don't know, she's having the last laugh

so why are we tittering about her anyway, our big guest today was Dr Liz O'Riordan, a former consultant breast surgeon who was diagnosed with breast cancer herself in 2015 and has actually retired after radiotherapy had restricted mobility in her left arm. So she's written a book called Under the Knife, Life Lessons from the Operating Theatre and Liz is somebody who's been incredibly

public about her breast cancer. She's talked very openly on social media, on all forms of the socials actually, about what she's been through and the impact it's had upon her. And I think she's made a really, really good impression on people who've been through it or who care for somebody else who has. So I asked her what kind of a child she'd been and if she always knew she wanted to go into medicine. I always wanted to be a doctor. My dad was a GP and a surgeon. My mum was a nurse. And I was just fascinated by the human body. And growing up, whenever there was a medical programme on the telly,

I was hooked. ER, casualty, Holby City. But I did surgical work experience as a sixth form. And there was something about being in that room, seeing these two men remove a bowel from someone's body and make the patient better. And I thought, this is it. I need to wear wear pyjamas I need to do what they're doing yeah well there's a quote in the book um the first thing that hit me was the smell of fresh blood warm and sickly sweet

yes now that's why you are a surgeon and Fi and I are disc jockeys uh it's it's another it's another world as you make very clear it is. You kind of have to forget that you're dealing with a human body and the smells and the body fluids, and it just kind of becomes like plumbing and you kind of lose what you're doing. But there's everything else around that, the emotion that's attached to it, the highs and the lows, the making mistakes, and actually having the balls to be given a scalpel and say, cut open this 11 year old's tummy to take his appendix out. Yes. And that's why in the nicest possible way, surgeons can be very difficult people. Yes. And you acknowledge that about yourself. I think you've got to have a, God complex is the wrong word, but you have to walk into that room knowing that you can fix

whatever happens and you can make them better and you can deal with the consequences. And it's an awful lot of pressure and it's hard to learn how to develop that confidence when you're just training but you have to be able to switch off and say I'm amazing I can do this and um there is a hierarchy uh within medicine yes within the NHS there most certainly is and when you first started male surgeons because they were overwhelming still are still are, I think. There still are. I think only 13% of female consultants are surgeons. Right. Well, that's amazing. Yeah.

Right. Well, why is that actually still? I think part of it is the hours. Surgery is kind of half seven until half six. It's hard to get childcare. It's hard to get time off if your kids are poorly. There's constant homework and it's a big sacrifice. And I know a lot of women who have kids who are almost paying to go to work so they can afford the child care and the men who

you worked with some were brilliant I should say my husband yeah I'm now the boss notably him but but other men who were extremely helpful and trusted you with things that perhaps you know yes questionable but they they let you have a go. But then there were the guys who, what was the man who rested his elbow on a woman's cleavage? What was that all about? Yeah, that's right. I think one of the things when you're a naive, vulnerable young woman wearing pyjamas, basically, and you're stood hip to knee next to your boss, who's a man, around a table of men, it's almost like you're prey. And there's a sexual banter that goes on in operating theatre, and it's very easy to not say anything when it happens to you, because you want to operate.

They can touch you up, they can say this, they can ask, who did you sleep with last night? But you need that man to let you operate, you need that man to train you. And it's really hard to know what to do. And at the time when I was training in the 90s, it was commonplace. And you put up with it, you put up with the rude jokes or the hand on the breast here, because you had to learn. And did you talk about it amongst yourselves? I didn't know many other women who were doing surgery. My friends were in different hospitals, and I was the only woman training. There was no one else to talk to about it. You just got on with it and said, this is part of the job. The atmosphere that you describe, I mean, let's not forget, of course, there is a human being prone on the operating table. And you're all bantering away. Well,

I mean, I've been that person prone on the operating table. I bet most people listening have at some point in their lives. I don't really want to think about you all chortling and bantering, to be perfectly honest. I find it really quite shocking. I think most of the time, especially when I'm operating, you've got complete respect for the patient. But some bits are very run of the mill when you're getting the dressing ready or stitching the skin. And that's when you normally chat like anybody would doing a job they're familiar with. But whenever I get serious, you can tell the atmosphere in the room changes and everyone knows what they're doing. And did being a surgeon live up to expectations for you? Yes. That high.

Your eyes just light up when you talk about it. It's magic. You see someone and you examine them and you think, I think you've burst your bowel. And the scan says you're right. And then you get to take them to theatre and you open them up and you remove the bowel and you see them the next day and they're walking. It's like, oh, my God, it's like a drug. Just being able to fix someone and make them better when it works it's incredible but you also make very clear in the book that training to be a doctor and particularly the early days of surgery are so punishing i mean it's it's slightly ridiculous that we still tolerate that system yeah and allow people to to potentially burn out at a really young

age why is why do we do Why do we let that happen still? I think when I was training, it was the 100-hour weeks. You went to work on Friday morning, you came home at Monday night. And I've driven back at 90 thinking I'm safer and I don't know whether I'm asleep and have I gone through the red lights. We were less busy back when I was training, but there's a bit of getting that experience. A lot of the junior doctors now do shift work and they'll go home at nine o'clock at night and they might not come on for a couple of days. And you don't get that continuity of care you never find out what happens to Mrs Bloggs with a sore tummy because they've gone unmoved and I think it's

finding that balance and my worry is now the NHS is so busy there's no time to train the doctors because everyone's looking at the clock and you can't take the time to operate because we've got to get on to the next case. Right and do you think that your own mental health would have been as severe as your mental health challenges? Would they have been so severe if you had not become a surgeon? No. No, I think the stresses I had to deal with as a 23 year old seeing a child who died on Christmas Day in A&E or telling someone their mother wasn't going to make it. There's no real training. There's no counselling. It's all part of the job. And the higher up the ranks you go, you get complaints, you get that pressure. And I had no idea how hard it was to absorb the weight of your patients on your shoulders. And then you're in and you can't get

out and you love the job, but it can break you. Yeah. so where is that filter down of wisdom and experience from the top of the surgical tree to young doctors like yourself starting out that would help with that I think it's coming now with social media and a lot of doctors talking during COVID about how bad it is but when I was training I never saw my bosses cry or tell me they went to sleep worrying about a complaint or what are they going to do with the patient the bosses were superhuman we have to believe we're perfect don't show weakness and as a consultant again being on social media I realized if I don't stay I went and cried in the toilet when I told that woman she was dying of breast cancer I'm human we need to learn

to cope the juniors don't see that, they realise that it is achievable. And I mean, it's interesting that you say that it will change because of social media. So it's not changing because people are getting up to the top of their profession and thinking it was rubbish when I was down at the bottom. I'm going to behave differently. It's people stepping outside and throwing it back in. I think so. There's an awful lot of, in my day, it was different. And what are you talking about? You've got it easy compared to the hours I did. And I think as junior doctors move every six months to different hospitals, you may not get that relationship for someone to say, actually, this is a really hard job. You need to really know what you're doing. And if someone had told me being a cancer surgeon is really, really hard, I'd have

said, but I want to do it. I don't believe you. I'm 20, I'm invincible. And it's, do you want to hear it? And there's one thing being told, it can be a really hard job, but are the resources to help you? It's interesting, isn't it? That your blog was hugely popular. Your speeches are hugely popular. People like Adam Kay, his stories are hugely popular. Because actually we, as the vulnerable patient, want to better understand the bits that go wrong, and the bits that go right. Yeah. And I kind of wanted the public to realise, I get 10 minutes to tell someone they've got breast cancer, would they like a breast reconstruction, they might need chemotherapy,

it's not enough. And then I tell someone again and again, and when people are saying the doctors didn't do this and didn't do that, to understand what we go through and the constraints we have, because it can be really hard. I don't want to be rude about people who become doctors. You can do. I'm just about to. We're all human. We're not all great.

Just about to be rude about people who become doctors. I went to a school where some of the girls were brilliantly clever and did become doctors, but I wouldn't put them in the top category of communicators, if I'm honest. And I don't know whether any of them became surgeons. And it is interesting that the language, and I do wonder whether, let's be honest, middle class people fare a bit better perhaps because they are spoken to in a way that is, what do you think about that? I think it's huge. think i've i've seen

doctors who have an incredible bedside manner who will sit on the floor to talk to someone with parkinson's because they can't lift their head up and i've seen one of my old bosses used to say this badness in the belly will take it out and that was his way of saying you've got bowel cancer and edostoma some people are naturally bad communicators but i worry as you said people who don't speak english as a first language or their family talk over them and it's almost luck whether you get a doctor that gels with you that you can bond with because you can't say no to the doctor it's really hard to ask for someone else because you don't like the way they speak to you. We're talking to Dr Liz O'Riordan whose book is out in paperback now it is called Under the Knife Life Lessons from the Operating Theatre. Liz O'Riordan is a

relatively recently retired breast cancer surgeon and also someone who has now had breast cancer a number of times. I'm trying to get the language exactly right here. You were first diagnosed how many years ago? Back in 2015 when I was 40. Right, so really very young. Yeah, I was and there was no family history, no risk factors and I never checked my breasts because I didn't think it would happen to me. But you were a breast cancer surgeon. I was a breast cancer surgeon. I didn't check my breasts. I thought I was invincible, like many women do.

Right. And so when did you discover that you did in fact have it? I noticed a lump. I got out of the shower and I saw a lump in my cleavage. And I just thought it was another cyst. And it was actually my mum who said. You had had a number of cysts. I'd had a couple of cysts before and I had that awful moment of crying on the sofa thinking I've just got engaged. My husband will leave me. I'm not going

to get married. I'll be dead in a year. That awful wave of hysteria. And I suddenly got what my patients feel when they come to see me. And scans have just shown I have cysts. It's common for women in their 30s and 40s. And I just thought this was another cyst. My mammogram was normal. I had an ultrasound and I saw a cancer. And in that moment, it was, I knew too much. I knew I'd need a mastectomy. I need chemo. I had a good idea what my chance of being dead in 10 years was. And it was, right, how much do I tell my mum and my husband? What do they need to know? And I went into the treadmill of treatment and I realised I knew nothing about chemotherapy and I knew nothing about actually being a patient. Because as a surgeon your job had been relatively simply to do the surgery and the rest of what followed was not your business. No it was

all the oncologists so I would I'd tell patients I gave them the results and I may say I'm sorry it's spread to your lymph nodes you need chemo and I may say yes you'm sorry, it's spread to your lymph nodes, you need chemo. And I may say, yes, you will lose your hair, it'll be six months of treatment, and pass them on to the oncologist. I'd never heard what they told my patients. I had no idea what my patients were going through. And it sounds crazy to say that. If you don't mind, it does rather, and does that part of the NHS just need to be better joined up? I think so. I had no idea what a radiotherapy machine looked like, and two thirds of my patients have it. And I think that's the problem with training. As a surgeon, I am so busy learning how to operate. I don't have time in my day to excuse a clinic to go and watch a radiotherapist. And I think as you get towards the end of your career, you do need to have that time to go and see what other all the bits of your team are doing and listen to what they say. But what difference would that make to a patient?

team are doing and listen to what they say. But what difference would that make to a patient? So when a radiotherapy patient would come and say, I'm exhausted, I feel really, really tired. And I used to say, it's just like an x-ray, you'll be fine. I'd have understood. And I've understood how important it is to get both your hands above your head, because that's the position. It would have changed how I might have guided them and counseled them and been a lot more empathetic because now I've had radiotherapy, I know what it can be like. Yeah, I mean, we should say as well that you were an extremely, you still are an extremely fit woman. I don't imagine you've been a smoker. Never.

No. I did drink like a fish at medical school, but not for a minute. Yeah, most students drink a lot, yeah. So there was, and there was not any breast cancer in your family. No. So it really will have come as a bolt from the blue. But you did surround yourself in your working life with people who had breast cancer i did um and how many times i wonder did you lie awake at night revisiting conversations that you'd had with patients in the light of your

diagnosis so many times there's so much that i didn't know and not realizing how hard it is to make a decision about whether you want to have a breast reconstruction it's not a breast reconstruction reconstruction, it's a lump of tissue. And is vanity a reason? What do you think about your breasts? And I didn't get the mental impact that cancer can have. The depression and anxiety that can follow women every year when they have their scans. There was so much I didn't know. And I don't know whether it would have changed how I was as a surgeon, but I would have made sure that the team around me were giving patients maybe different information, talking about their sex lives or how to cope, all that kind of stuff. Well, I mean, you say yourself, you'd only recently just got married.

Yeah, a couple of years. Relatively speaking, yeah. So sex was important, was significant to you both. And you had lost faith in your body or yourself. What was it? I didn't look at myself from the neck down. And especially when I had a mastectomy for my first local recurrence,

I hated the ugly scar. I'd lost my hair. I'd lost my ovaries. I didn't feel like a woman. I didn't feel sexy. I didn't want my husband to look at me. And it took a long time for me to be able to touch myself to then let him touch me.

And then you add in the side effects of an instant menopause on top of that and no libido and the hot flashes and the side effects of an instant menopause on top of that and no libido and the hot flushes and the night sweats and I had no idea so many women including myself have gone to their partners and said can you divorce me and marry a woman with two breasts and a healthy libido because of the guilt I felt I was bringing to the marriage just from having breast cancer and what did your husband did he ever manage to say anything to you that knocked all of those negative thoughts aside he was incredible don't be silly i love you i didn't marry you for

your breasts i'm not going anywhere it's in sickness and health and and it's great to hear that but there's that still that bit inside of you saying yeah but you didn't sign up for this uh liz we've had a lovely email about you actually which i guess is going to make you blush but it's from a woman called jane who just said i wanted to say a big thank you to Liz. When I was diagnosed with breast cancer at 49, she was the light that shone the brightest. As a nurse, NHS director, and more significantly, one year on from the death of my mum from breast cancer, I knew more than I wanted to know already. But Liz's books, blogs and social media have been my guide. She is honest, open, but most importantly, trusted. Oh, I'm going to cry.

I mean, I think it's, well, please don't cry. Well, you can cry, actually. There's nothing wrong with it. But I think there are a lot of people who feel that way about you. And you have been generous in sharing what you've been through. And you now have, I need to get this right, a local recurrence. That's right. Which is, what does that

mean? How did you find out about that? So a local recurrence means the breast cancer has come back in the skin of the chest wall. And it was funny, the day before the book launched, I was in Italy, I'd just been cycling in the mountains. And I looked in the mirror again after a shower. And I saw a little pink nodule just above my scar. And I knew. Luckily, it's not anywhere else. So I'm still curable. And I had surgery on Friday to remove it. And I've been here before and I knew. Luckily it's not anywhere else so I'm still curable and I had surgery on Friday to remove it and I've been here before and I will carry on with whatever happens next. So what are you able to get on with the next couple of weeks without focusing too much on it? I think it's out. I'm cancer free again. There will be more treatment that may give me more

side effects that may affect my quality of life but I'm still here and I'll go through whatever they want I think it's been hard talking about it um a couple of patients recognized me in the hospital waiting room and I thought right I'm going to tell the world so it's not a secret and I can help women do it that way um but it is hard being in this weird place where you get recognized and it's hard to know what to do at times you've made that choice but it doesn't mean that you necessarily sits that well with you all the time it's hard for know what to do at times. And you've made that choice, but it doesn't mean that it necessarily sits that well with you all the time. It's hard for me to remember I'm a patient as well as being a doctor and an educator. It's a funny space to be in.

Yeah. Quick political question. And it's being asked by us and also by one of our listeners, Samaya Lakhani, former president of the Royal College of GPs, who asked, do you think that the current crisis in the NHS is putting medical students off? It's interesting, because when I was wanting to do medicine, everyone told me, don't do it, it's a bad career. And I said, don't be silly, I'm going to be a doctor. But I think now times

have changed. They see doctors are earning less than I did 20 years ago, and I could buy a house for £90,000 at the time. And I think it's really worrying how they're going to survive and cope and get the training. And I do worry, I don't know whether I would go into it given the current political climate really yeah even that bright enthusiastic can't wait to put my scalpel in you love the smell of blood you love it but you need to be able to live and survive and have a sustainable career and I'm not sure what's going to happen in the future can I just ask if somebody if somebody listening now, I don't know, found a lump in the shower this morning, thought there was just something a bit weird going on. Can you guarantee that if they ring their GP, they will be seen ASAP and that things will be put in motion really rapidly? Or do you slightly

fear for their fate? I can't guarantee that. Ideally, if you find a new lump, your GP, they may not need to see you, they may refer you to a breast cancer clinic to be seen. Because my hands, I miss my own cancer. We don't know. Sadly, a lot of GPs don't think young women can get cancer. And I've had a couple of people say, I've had a lump, the receptionist said it's nothing to worry about. The receptionist. They don't realise that women in their 20s and 30s can get it. And I would say if the GP says no, then you call back and you make sure because the only way to tell it's not a cancer is to be seen and have scans. So please, please, please, if you found anything, go and get an appointment. We're paid to worry, you're not. Yeah. And men can get it too,

can't they? Definitely. Yes, they can do. That's Dr. Liz O'Riordan. And we both love talking to her, actually, didn't we? She was a really really a really nice woman and I do think the book is a tremendously readable guide not just to breast cancer although it is but to life as a as a female surgeon yeah and actually I thought she was so self-deprecating about her lack of awareness and knowledge of the whole process that a patient might go through but actually I would imagine that if she was your surgeon, you would feel in very good hands and actually feel that you were with an empathetic person. You know, I think she was almost putting herself down too much

saying that she didn't know enough about patients. And it's good that she realised because, Lord knows, there are probably quite a few surgeons who've never stopped to think about that. I can't say any more, but anecdotally, based on conversations I've had with people I know, surgeons do not always communicate in the most considerate way. And I am talking specifically here about breast cancer. But that, look, I mean, they have an extraordinary skill set

and it may not necessarily extend to fantastic communication skills. Who knows? I mean, people have their strengths, don't they? I'd be fascinated. I'm sure we've got people listening who have either been on the receiving end of fantastic communication from a surgeon or the other way around, or indeed are surgeons themselves. So please do take me up on that and challenge what I know is almost certainly a generalisation. But let us know what you think. Anyway, it was really good to talk to Liz and Under the Knife is the name of her book. It's out now in paperback. Tomorrow, we're going to talk to Sharon Davis. And her book is all about the injustice that women have faced in sport. So we're going to have a really good conversation with her.

And do you know what, Jane? I found it to be incredibly revealing because apart from anything else, she makes the point that when people like you and me come to introduce her, we say, this is Sharon Davis, silver medalist, and we list all her achievements. She should have been a gold medalist.

But there are many points in the book where she details how we could have been introducing her if doping hadn't been so rampant in swimming when she was competing. She details, doesn't she, the fact that actually your life, let's just be totally honest about this. Let's say the Lionesses win the World Cup. I mean, they've already benefited from winning the Euros. But their lives, if they are in that 11 that win that final, let's say it does happen, or whoever is in that team that wins, their lives will be, I mean, not golden, because things go wrong for everybody,

but they will have incredible opportunities because the world loves a winner. Yes, and the access and the sponsorship and all of the stuff that comes your way goes to the person who wins gold. And so that's Sharon's point. So it'll be a really interesting conversation with her and one tiny detail that i really really loved is that her family uh for i can't remember which birthday or anniversary it was they got her silver

medal and they plated it with gold very good to give to her just think woof well done you so makes you wonder about what families could do for birthdays, doesn't it? No, are you feeling let down by yours? You've got loads of golds. Our book tokens always welcome, mother. Again. John Lewis voucher, I think. Oh, I can't beat it.

You can't, actually. Right, have a lovely evening. There's actually a peculiar yellow object in the sky here as we speak I don't think it's going to last but if we hurry home we can get ourselves a bronzy in the back garden tonight let's try it, good evening Well done for getting to the end of another episode of Off Air with Jane Garvey and Fee Glover.

Our Times Radio producer is Rosie Cutler and the podcast executive producer is Henry Tribe. And don't forget, there is even more of us every afternoon on Times Radio. It's Monday to Thursday, three till five. You can pop us on when you're pottering around the house or heading out in the car on the school run

or running a bank. Thank you for joining us and we hope you can join us again on Off Air very soon. Don't be so silly. Running a bank? I know, ladies. A lady listener.

I know, sorry.