Off Air... with Jane and Fi - With Love, Jane and Fi

Episode Date: March 17, 2025

Welcome to this unspecial email-only podcast episode — Jane and Fi chat Cockney frogs, twinned towns, and St. Patrick's Day. The next book club episode is coming this Friday. The book is 'Eight Months on Ghazzah Street' by Hilary Mantel. If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] Follow us on Instagram! @janeandfi Podcast Producer: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

And actually I did write about Trump in that chapter too, because he was on his first outing. And honestly, Fee, since we condemned the man in that book, he's not had a scrap of success. No. And the world has got so much more equal. It really has. So I think we won. Totally. With the Fizz loyalty program, you get rewarded just for having a mobile plan.

You know, for texting and stuff. And if you're not getting rewards like extra data and dollars off with your mobile plan, you're not with Fizz. Switch today. Conditions apply. Details at fizz.ca. Testing, testing, one, two, three, welcome. It's a whole new week. We join you with enthusiasm, pizzazz and a spring-like spirit, I think. There are a couple of moments over the weekend

where if you were standing completely and utterly protected from the wind, you could imagine that a season was turning. As soon as you stepped out into the wind... Whoooooo! Not so much. I tell you what, we've got a very, very noisy woodpecker who's set up shop in the big tree at the bottom of the garden. And it's just one of those funny literal echo chambers, because obviously we've got, you know, tall houses on either side,

where it is really, really properly loud. And my daughter thought that it was some kind of very, very on-the-button construction work going on at 6.30 this morning, because it's proper... It's just the woodpecker setting up shop. But it does sound like, you know when the tarmac people come along and they've got one of those flatteners and they thud down the street going do do do do do do do. Sounds like that. It almost sounds like that.

Would that be the female or the male? I don't know. But I'm dying to actually see it because I think the woodpecker is a lovely thing to watch out for and I haven't yet. We're trying to track the sound because it might have come from, you know, we might just be getting the echo. I think it's in the big tree at the bottom of the garden. I'll keep everybody posted. That's just a random little nature segment. That was Spring Watch. I enjoyed it. Courtesy of Offair.

The downside was that Brian brought in a frog last night. Oh God. Huge great big thing. Actually, sorry, the cat brought in a frog. Yeah. This really is like Springwatch. I didn't know they were attracted or even remotely interested in frogs. Oh I think they'll take anything that hops and moves.

We did rescue the frog. We sent it back out into the world. A little bit petrified. That's a good thing. If frogs can shiver frogs? Oh yeah. It would have done. And his little heart was just going... Oh, oh Fee, that's actually really sad. No, I know. And that is the downside, isn't it, of the domestic cat.

I mean, they're just killers. They're wildlife killers. So, you know, I apologise on behalf of Brian. Blimey. It's all been going on hasn't it? What you should do now is write an incredibly successful children's book series based on the character of that frog. Turn it into something, make yourself a few quid. I tell you what, I don't know whether any... Cockney Frog, I can see it now. From the world of lukewarm low-level celebrity as ever, typed in a book thought and a couple of characters into chat GPT.

I'm sure that doesn't happen. To see what comes out the other end and then published it in time for Christmas. Yes, because watch out. And then I could appear on my own podcast being interviewed about a book I'd neither written nor read. Thank you very much, Vy. It is also St Patrick's Day. Oh, happy St Patrick's Day. Well, welcome to everyone celebrating. Since my sister's DNA test, of course, I don't

feel as Irish as I always thought I was. But it's your sister's DNA, you're all right. We don't know, we've got to make the assumption that I'm at least as Scottish as she is. But yes, it's a conversation we haven't yet had as a wider family. But anyway, to anyone celebrating, I was in Liverpool on Saturday and Liverpool City Centre at about 12 noon this Saturday was there were West Ham fans going to see Everton play West Ham. How were they? Oh, God.

Well, I had a really fantastic guard on the Avanti West train actually, who helped me get a seat on Saturday, so shout out to him. I mean, I know I'm rude about Avanti West, but it's not the staff, they're great, really on the whole they are. Yeah, it was all this, IONS business at Euston at nine in the morning, one doesn't need it. One doesn't need it. But look, when we get to Liverpool, it's a wash with hens and stags as it always is. Inflatable people being knocked around and a load of people. There's a huge group of lads dressed. They look like human condoms, but they were dressed in the colours of the Irish flag. So white, orange, green. They

look very tight fitting plastic suits. There was obviously a stag weekend combined with St. Patrick's. What a lucky lady. Yes, I just thought, oh my God. And bear in mind, this is only the 15th. So it was St. Patrick's Day Eve Eve. Yes. And already the Irish bars were absolutely, it was raging.

And that was also the high temperature didn't help. It was at least nine or nine or 10 Celsius. And that always brings out a bit of sunshine peeking through. So that's enough. Yeah, it's all they need. They're away. Anyway, I was reading up about St. Patrick's Day and it turns out he's probably British. Oh, that's a disappointment.

He's had a disappointing DNA test like my sister. He would have been very been very upset about that. Anyway, all the best to everyone celebrating. He's basically the world's patron saint, isn't he? Because they just go mad for St. Patrick's Day. Everywhere. Everywhere, yeah. It's just one of the... It's just curious. So in Chicago they dye the river green, don't they?

Do they? Gosh, OK, right. So it goes bright green. Right. Because the Irish community is so very, very, very huge there. Right, yeah. Gosh, I tell you what, you wouldn't want to be a cleaner in any of London's major stations this Monday morning, would you? No.

Because there was the Liverpool Newcastle. Yeah. Sorry to mention it. No, Liverpool were terrible. They didn't deserve to win. But that is just such an enormous, enormous influx of fandom coming through and heading out. I saw some Newcastle fans at King's Cross underground this morning. They looked all right considering, to be fair, they did. But I gather that things were a

bit tasty in the centre of town. Yes, just really, you know, that's just two great big big beefy sides meeting up for a hello sailor. To be fair, two great clubs with a fine tradition. That's what I meant. Wonderful cities, both. Just exactly what I meant, just couldn't find the words. Oh dear. Right, now we've got some hefty ones to do about sex workers. Can I just... Well, actually, what do you want to head off into the week with? Just start with it. We also had lots of response to Emma Barnett talking about maternity leave, stroke service, so we're going to do about that. Also, can we just do the important one about the Peter Thornton book? Yes. Now, there's still so much confusion about this.

Yeah, and I've lost the piece of... Well, a lot of people have said that they have gone online and in various outlets it is still saying it's not published until 2026. Over to you colleague. Well if only you could I've left the bloody piece of paper outside. Oh that's terrible isn't it. I tell you what in the meantime shall we do some maternity service ones and then we'll keep you posted? So look, we're doing the beginning of life and then we're going to do the end of life. It's like we thought about it. Alex sends the following, dear Finn, Jane, the reason I write is whilst listening to the

wonderful Emma Barnett on your show. That director from Older Mothers to Enjoy Every Second is ridiculous and it happened to me and I felt such guilt because then I had no one to tell how I was really feeling a lot of the time. It's exactly why Emma decided to write the book and Alex goes on to say, I'm now lucky enough to be a grandmother to four small children and this is the time where we can now enjoy each of those moments. When you're younger, suddenly having your life as you knew it taken away, it's incredibly hard to adjust and be at peace with it all and not to suffer excruciating boredom at times and so much more. But now life is at a slower pace, although I do still

work full time, but somehow you innately know how to be present with these new lives and cherish every moment. And I do wish I could have been more present with my own, but I understand that now and it is just a part of the process of life. It's one of the good things about getting older, being a grandparent. I'll go on to your recommendations of podcast, Alex, because a couple of people have mentioned the same one as you've done. And I always liked the long view of grandparenting and also people who've kind of forgiven themselves for the feelings that they had when they were younger.

I think that's a very healthy thing to be able to do. And I think for me anyway, that is what's great about Emma Barnett writing that book. It's to give voice to not everybody's experience, but just one of the experiences of maternity service, maternity leave, which is that confusing thing of absolutely adoring your baby, but sometimes just finding, you know, the days around it, hard work. And it just wasn't, it wasn't something that you appear to have been able to say without condemnation in previous generations. It's a leap. We did, didn't we, get a message on Thursday when the interview went out from a man who

said, I just don't know what all the fuss is about. My mother thoroughly enjoyed bringing up me and my, you have no idea mate. Absolutely no idea. I didn't relish hearing from it. Just, so honestly, some people are just extraordinary. This is from Anonymous, on Friday I found myself stuck in a traffic jam, alone in my car, with my four week old daughter in the back screaming her eyes out and wailing. Desperately needed a nappy change that I wasn't able to do as my car was gridlocked. It really distressed by her tears and also angry that I wasn't able to provide what she needed.

So I put on trusty Fee and Jane at full volume in the hope it would restore a sense of familiar calm for both of us. Thank you so much for using us in that way. It makes me feel incredibly humble actually to hear that we might possibly be any help. It can be really stressful that sort of experience, so I get you. What an amazing coincidence the episode I landed on had Emma Barnett on to discuss maternity service. Thank bloody God! I instantly remembered I wasn't alone and it would all be okay. Although Friday was stressful, is it okay to say that I'm finding it all, well, fine? Not great, not awful, but just okay. One thing that struck me

listening is whenever I hear people discuss maternity leave, it's either the most wonderful experience in the world or it's super hard and in the trenches drudgery. I wonder if we should be making more space for the middle ground. Maybe that's because I'm lucky that my own mom did the most wonderful job when I was growing up of telling me how both I was the most loved and best child in the world, but also how hard she'd found me as a baby and how she would never do it again. Right, okay. Well, I think your mum definitely struck the right note there. A friend recently asked me if my whole world had changed since I had a daughter. I honestly said no, it's just

the same, but I get way less done and there's a nice new person about the house. I think that's great. Yep. I've already downloaded the audiobook, says Anonymous, and it's fab. Well, congratulations to you. And the screaming stress ball in the back of the car is clearly much adored. I'm sure she's absolutely beautiful. And she'll go on just to give you so many wonderful happy times. And you can tell her she was mentioned on a podcast. She'll say, what's a podcast? And it won't matter. But you'll be able to treasure that memory. I think it would be more likely that our children would go, what's radio? Radio is the thing that's dying. Podcasts, I keep, in fact there was a Stephen Bartlett interview in the paper at the weekend about the power of the podcast and he's developed this really very specific tool, Jane, a data tool

whereby you can kind of point it at your podcast and you can work out exactly which question in an interview doesn't really keep people hanging off your every word and then you can discard that question. Just this, just continual kind of optimization of every experience that we have, I just find it so draining. There'll always be a couple of questions in an interview that are just a bit dull and they're just kind of padding, but you get through them and then you get to a really fiery question and it all livelys up again. I mean that's just all of this is just life isn't it? This just incessant need for data to tell us where our likes are gonna take us and they just give us more and more of our likes is just bonkers. Where's it gonna end up? With us all being bored shitless I think

probably is one of us. Yes because it will change our our, it's exactly that, it will change our bar. So we can't eat the broccoli on the plate anymore. We're only going to have the protein. And I just think that's a disastrous way to live your life. That reminds me, I am reading the book that they have now banned the author from speaking about. Sarah Wynne Williams. I can't say that, I want to say Vaude Williams every time. I'm so sorry Sarah. So I've't say that, I want to say Vaughan Williams every time.

I'm so sorry Sarah. So I've got it too, it arrived on Saturday. I thought oh this is great. Well it is, it's really interesting. How far have you got? I haven't even opened it yet. So I'm only halfway through and it's actually a book about tech wouldn't be my first port of literary call if I'm honest, but it's really well written. She's a really good writer, thank God. So it is digestible and it doesn't make me any fonder of meta. I wasn't very fond of them to start with. Having said that, of course, do I use WhatsApp? Absolutely. Am I grateful for it? 100%. You wouldn't get any of your gossipy information without WhatsApp. No, I wouldn't. Instagram, I suppose I'm there,

loosely speaking. We are there as an entity. But if you didn't like the cut of Mark Zuckerberg's jib, you won't like it anymore if you read this. And of course I know that Meta Facebook will say that this author was fired by the organisation and they're in a very different place to the place that she writes about. But are they? Well that's the good question. I tell you one thing that she does talk about is when she visited their headquarters for the first time.

It was one of those really ridiculous atriums that looked unfinished with everything exposed, you know the sort of ventilation shafts and the pipe work and everything else. Kind of Richard Rodgers style. All out there, all out there for you to see. And when she asked about it, she said, oh, well, it did look normal, but we've had everything ripped out because we're under, you know, we're still a work in progress and we want the building to reflect the embryonic stage of our development.

It's just ridiculous, isn't it? So you just think, I don't need to see your ventilation in your piping. Gosh, I mean I think the temples that are built by the tech companies are extraordinary. So I've never been to Mountain View, which is Apple's headquarters, and I've only ever seen it. I think probably in dramatizations of stuff about tech worlds, but that's just insane. It's just so ridiculously planned, thoughtful, beautiful, centered, quiet, calm. Really? And back to the broccoli, sometimes you just need a slightly more utilitarian turnstile,

some slightly dicky, almost Portaloo style toilet facilities to remind you you're at work. I mean, the cat of your life is going to cough up a hairball because that's the existence we live, or we used to live. Anyway, if you can see that book, the book itself hasn't been banned. It's called Careless People. But she's been banned from coming on to talk about it. But nothing to see here because they believe in freedom of speech, V. They certainly do. That's what actually,

weirdly, lies at the heart of their empire. Isn't it funny? Isn't it weird that, it's very weird, do you want to move on to foils or sex work? You choose. Well, I just think we need to do the later years, Peter Thornton. Oh gosh, okay. Let's just get this straight. Update, update, update. Here's an update. Thanks to our colleague, Evelyn. This is great to hear the interview has gone down so well with listeners, said Peter Thornton's publicist. The answer is that his book has been so popular it has indeed sold out. And it sold out to such an extent that Amazon took the to buy button off the current edition.

And hence the only one people can find is next year's paperback. It's been really annoying. We've been getting lots of queries about this. The good news is stock is going into Amazon today, so the buy button is back up for the right edition. It does say up to 10 days delivery at the moment, but that should change later today, I hope. So there you go. So if you are looking for that book, later years, it just helps you navigate wills and power of attorney and all the rest of it. Super useful. It's going to be available from today, hopefully. Right. Gosh, what a fantastic thing to have written something. Because actually

Peter Thornton didn't write it to, you know, be a best-selling author on later lives. He was a lovely, unassuming chap, wasn't he? But he was asked to write, wasn't he, by a friend of his who had, I think, lost her husband and she had asked him to just write a kind of pamphlet about what she should do and that's how the book evolved so I was it's really nice isn't it when very good things come out of a kind of kernel of kindness. Well I hope he's enjoying the success congratulations Peter. Yeah right shall I just do a quick foils and then we can head off into possibly more serious territory? Although I don't know.

I mean, it's all serious stuff, isn't it? This one comes from, well, it's about both things, actually. It comes from Liz who says, I thought you'd like to know that I spotted a young woman on the street last night in foils and a black hairdresser's cape. I didn't have time to stop and ask if she was a listener. It might have been a bit odd if I had, but it looked like she was chatting to a friend. So the movement is underway, though this was in Walthamstow in London and

not... and your problem is? No, it's just that that's a place where alternative forms of behaviour will be more than tolerated. Walthamstow? Yeah. The Republic of Walthamstow. Yeah, that's what I mean. Yeah, possibly. Though this was in Walthamstow in London, not the rarefied environs of Cheltenham. We have had a... the poor woman who wrote to us originally about vanilla. Vanilla taunton. Reckon I might be in hot water because I describe taunton as vanilla. It's Melanie from the

village near Taunton in Somerset. I did say perfectly pleasant vanilla and not as being discussed on the pod boring. We upstick some 25 years ago and moved from the southeast to a village in Somerset because it was a pleasant place to bring up our daughter. Taunton is our nearest town. It's not inspiring or exciting but dependable and friendly like many towns outside the environs of big cities. At 18, our perfectly pleasant but not a tall vanilla daughter headed straight back to London. She views Taunton with great affection but lives in East London where yes, I do believe

I could walk around in foils without turning ahead. I might try it on my next trip to... Walthamstone. You are joking. Wow. No. Okay. Isn't that incredible? And report back. on my next trip to... Walthamstone! You're joking, wow! No! Okay. Isn't that incredible?

And report back. PS, I've kept my head down for 25 years now. I will definitely be labelled an income from upcountry. So Melanie, I'm sorry if we represented you. Yes. My colleague to the right, obviously far more than me. Oh, definitely. I was completely innocent.

Because I defended your WI and it was a very, very pleasing place to be. But I'm really sorry actually because it must be awful if you hear something being read out and then it's not the slant that you meant that gets taken and your town then gets trashed and you feel embarrassed about it. So the connections between Taunton and Walthamstow are very strong. Very clearly. Are they twinned with each other? I don't think so. I'd love to hear more about twinning towns. They always, always make me laugh. I know what you mean. There's a place I visit, well I'm just going to say it, Chiswick, which is twinned with some... Anyway, it just seems an

unlikely, I'm not going to mention it, it just seems an unlikely relationship and bearing in mind Chiswick is kind of where the home counties start and London ends for me. I find it really, really funny when you're abroad, in the abroad and you're driving round and you drive into, you know, the most beautiful, beautiful town in southwest France. As it says. Twinned with baising stone. But maybe someone listening has had some fruitful experiences in the twinning area. I don't think that they make enough of it because there'll be some kind of merrill occasions with a finger buffet where people go along in clanking chains and a lovely photograph is taken and

it's a twinning ceremony. But I don't know, are schools doing exchanges of students? Are they sharing ideas? Are you getting a discount from Basingstoke? If you head off to whatever it is, Villefranche for your holidays. I'd be intrigued to know a little bit more. Well I'd like to hear from anyone who's ever been a mare or a maresse. I think we have done the maresse thing, haven't we? We've done maresse. Yeah, yep. Because I remember some people sent in fantastic pictures of the clanking chains of mare royalty.

And don't bother us again with that. No, I was going to say, but we can see them again. I was thinking when I was watching Toxic Town that the masons make quite an appearance in Toxic Town and we definitely had quite long running conversations about the masons. With the Fizz loyalty program, you get rewarded just for having a mobile plan. You know, for texting and stuff. And if you're not getting rewards like extra data and dollars off with your mobile plan, you're not with Fizz.

Switch today. Conditions apply. Details at fizz.ca. Let's move on to talk about prostitution, stroke, sex work. This is anonymous. I'm just going to read out a couple of just what I call life experiences and make of them what you will. I'm a specialist nurse working alongside people going through homelessness and substance abuse, some of whom have become involved in the criminal justice system.

The popular press think of these people and portray them as the so-called scum of our society. Well, I feel privileged to be trusted by people who've never had the luxury of so-called normal relationships. I hold huge respect for people that somehow get up every morning while feeling hopeless and often cold and hungry. People who walk around knowing that others avoid meeting their eye, partly out of fear, partly out of pity or discomfort and sometimes quite frankly out of disgust. I want to share a particular tricky consultation I've had. I recently met a male patient who came to one of my clinics but he wasn't actually homeless. He wanted to be tested for

sexually transmitted diseases. I asked him about sexual history. He told me he'd been, quote, sleeping with undesirables. Further questioning found he didn't use condoms. I asked him what undesirables meant and it became apparent that he was talking about sex workers. He didn't use condoms. I asked him what undesirables meant and it became apparent that he was talking about sex workers. He didn't use a condom as to quote him, it's not the same. Well I gritted my teeth, in front of me was a man who felt he was so superior to the women he was paying to sleep with, women he was putting in danger by insisting on not wearing a condom, women who had asked him to wear one. He talked about the women he had sex with in a throwaway fashion, as if they were not actual people, just a service.

It didn't even cross his mind that his own behavior was in any way undesirable. It was simply his right as a man. She does go on to say, these women often have complex mental health problems, work in very dangerous situations, get up every morning knowing how they're perceived, wishing things could be different but they carry on. I have never met a group of people who demonstrate such strength and resilience as these women. I like your show it's just the right amount of dark and light she says. Well we do try don't we to combine the utterly irrelevant with the really very significant.

This is another anonymous email from someone who says, I wanted to share briefly my experience of sex work to see if I can change anybody's mind. I mean, she does say I am a survivor of childhood sexual abuse and this work acted as part of a palette of techniques to help me get a handle on an incredibly difficult experience that it's impossible to imagine if you haven't experienced it. I am lucky I'm middle-class, was able to organise all my own work myself, I wasn't coerced, I could be choosy with my clients and perhaps most importantly it was able to stop when I wanted to.

I am fully aware this is very much not the case for many or indeed most sex workers. I don't pretend it's not a complex issue. Thank you to Fee for pointing out that many of us have strong opinions about things we know little or nothing about. I'd also like to speak briefly in defence of the men who buy sex, I met a lot of interesting people doing this work, and probably my biggest surprise was how unlike these men were in comparison to how I'd imagined them to be. A common theme was men on the autistic spectrum who benefited from the clear boundaries involved in hiring an escort, as they were often scared of how to interact with or read signals from women on so-called normal dates. To the

point that consent can never be bought I do disagree. I know and have experienced both what it's like to give and not give consent many times throughout my life and in my interactions with clients I had given it. It's, look, we don't pretend any of this stuff is easy. She does go on to say, I'm now with a loving partner and we're expecting our first baby. I met him when I was still engaged in sex work and told him very early on in our relationship he was understanding and said something along the lines of,

well, don't many of us sell ourselves in our jobs every day? And I thought, well, quite. I think it's an absolutely brilliant email and I think you cannot fail to better understand the situation that an awful lot of women and men find themselves in than to hear that first person experience and you know good on you, you've taken control of something that was, you know, your control was taken away from you as a girl. So to be able to take back control of something in your adult life, I think you deserve many many many accolades for that and to have met someone who's broad minded enough not to allow prejudice to get into the relationship, you know, without understanding where it's

all coming from. I would be really interested though, Jane, to just hear more from men about sex work because I think... I bet we don't. Yeah, no, no, but I think, you know, I think maybe it's one of those conversations where women are better able to listen, better able to understand, maybe more capable of shutting up when they don't know what they're talking about, but I don't hear enough nuanced conversations from men about what they think. And, you know, the problem of stepping over that line of control lies with the client, doesn't it? So, and I think the client is more often a man than a woman.

If you've got thoughts, gentlemen, then it would be good to hear them. It's just where our correspondent here says she wasn't coerced, but she has already said in the first paragraph that she was a survivor of child sexual abuse. So, no, you weren't coerced, but you had too much in your locker there already right at the start. But you know somebody took away your natural right to consent at a very young age. So, Hefty Stuff, Jane and Fiat, Time Stop Radio, if you'd like to get involved in the conversation. Can I take us back to Liz's email, which started off about foils, but it then moves on to men, and I think it is relevant actually and connected to this conversation. Your interview with Martha Lane Fox got me thinking about how it's decent men who can really make

a difference to organizational culture. So we were talking to Martha Lane Fox about tech bros and about Elon Musk and his handling of Twitter now X in particular. It says back in the 1990s, my dad, Nick Nightingale, was chief executive at the YMCA. He was, in his way, a feminist. He championed one of his direct reports, who was a woman and who's gone on to be a senior leader. He also supported my mum when she was dealing with the awful sexism she faced in the 90s, when she was ordained as a vicar in the Church of England. And my dad also told me once that the reason men spend so long rearranging dishwashers

is that they're lazy and would rather spend time cramming in as much as possible, believe anything out. Sadly he died about two and a half years ago and I miss his wise advice about work. He rarely told me what to do and just listened, asked questions and raised a wry eyebrow at some of what I said. Greetings to all of the Off Air gang. He sounds like a fantastic, fantastic guy and a great dad as well, Liz, so you know I'm sad that he has died. But I think it's such a good point and one that you and I have tried to make along our little journey of being gobby quite often that actually so many of the things that we rail against as women I think we have to accept that they will be changed quicker and with

more effect by men nudging men along because you know some to some men you've got problems the female voice is just so far away it's shrieking at them it's immediately you know difficult for them to hear. It's nagging. It's all of those things so we just have to encourage and celebrate celebrate nice men who are doing decent things, not leave them out of conversations at all. And we write about it a bit in our little book. Okay, so let's plug it. Yeah, well I think I can't, I was trying to remember this morning actually.

What was called? I remember what was called, did I say that out loud? But I read the C-Mail and I thought that's exactly what I wrote in that chapter, but what was it about? Because it was in praise of the beta male. Yes, it was about... That was the book about... Oh, it was called Shut Up Roger. The chapter. Oh, okay, yes.

Because I made the case that the worst kind of men are the ones who are always heard more than anybody else. Yes, yeah. Yeah, and actually I did write about Trump in that chapter too, because he was on his first outing. And honestly, Fee, since we condemned the man in that book, he's not had a scrap of success. No, and the world has got so much more equal. It really has.

So I think we won. Totally. Everything computers. You're probably wondering, is there a guest? No, because Eve just hasn't booked one. No, that's so unfair! We decided today that we'd do an email special, but as you've already listened to it, you'll know there's been nothing special about it. There have been emails, so one part of it rang true. Anyway, the book's still available.

And actually, just while we're plugging in Mabana and her book, which is called Maternity Service, this email is from Judith in Germany and she says, listening to your interview with Emma made me think of my most vivid memory of my maternity service. It's winter and pouring rain. The puppy still has to go for a walk and by the time three children aged six, four and two are dressed in waterproof gear, the eldest one has to go to the loo and the puppy has peed on the floor. They are now 22, 20, 18 and 16. The best parenting book I know is called Baby Blues by Rick Kirkman and Jerry Scott. So there's a recommendation all the way from Germany. But reading that reminded me of an afternoon in the late November of, it must have been 2004 or 5, when driven completely mad, I told my two children that we really needed to go out for baked beans even though I knew the

shops were shut because it was a Sunday. I just had to get out of the house and I couldn't think, I plain couldn't think of anything else to do with a four and a one year old. So off we set, it was cold, it was slightly wet and we'd simply walk the streets for about an hour until the eldest one pointed out no shops were open. But I got them out of the house, Fie. God, I'm just, that's, no, well done, well done. And those, you know, those days where you thought I'm actually going to flip my lid. I just, how am I going to eat up the time before I can legitimately put them in the bath?

Yeah. I just, sometimes you just don't know, do you? You just don't. No, you don't. So off we set. So sometimes I used to take my son when he was about that age and my daughter was being tiny, so one and a half or whatever. We used to go and watch the planes take off at City Airport from a bench in the car park. Not from a nice kind of proper viewing platform.

But did you have carrot batons? Probably. I think we might have had breadsticks and hummus. Oh, lovely. I know. It was the same colour going in as it was coming out. That's the great beauty of that. Mind you, I did see a lovely recipe for sort of zhooshing up your hummus in the Times over the weekend. Well.

On message, Mandy is back. I know it was a great, great. You just needed a couple of chilies and a bit of garlic, green chilies and a bit of garlic. And you sort of took, you thumped the hummus out of the pot and into a bowl and just added more ingredients to it. So I think the, and also the killer trick, and it's as if we're turning into, with love,

Jane and Fee, with our top tips. But if you take a normal average, quite cheap hummus out of its tub, and you put it in a nice bowl, and you pour your own olive oil on top and sprinkle some chilli flakes on top and maybe a couple of actual real chickpeas. I mean it looks like tastes the difference. Oh does it? It immediately elevates it. And guests are startled. Just flabbergasted. Then they think that you've made it yourself and of course you haven't done that.

Although maybe Megan has. She's got another season of With Love Megan coming, hasn't she? Is it called With Love Megan? Yes, well she's got a new podcast series with her entrepreneurs. Yeah, Female Founders. She talks to female founders about female energy. I think a few women will not be leaning in quite so enthusiastically if they've read that book about meta. But anyway. So yeah, Sheryl Sandberg, who was for a long time the kind of female

saviour. She'd sewn up feminism. Yep and she wrote Lean In and I never got it. I'm not saying that to kind of you know get some kind of a garland now but because it was telling women to to be more male that's what was always wrong with it. It was like lean into the meeting, say something twice, be more like them, be louder than them, be shoutier than them. And honest to God, if all of those tech companies had had some really sensible middle-aged women on their boards, they wouldn't be in the absolute f up that they're in now. Say it sister. Lean out. Or at the very least, just sit up straight. Lean out but do be careful. So don't lean too far back.

Yours vertically challenged with legs dangling is Anne. I know you love a correction so here goes a minor point. Or maybe not if you're a hawk. This is completely on me Anne, I'm really sorry. Hawks are not members of the corvid family. Magpies however however, are. And a murmuration is the collective term for starlings. Although I think you can have murmurations of other species. Perhaps you could have Michaela Stracken on to tell us more.

Well, we have had her on. She's great. We could have her back, couldn't we? But I'm very sorry about that. I've put the hawk into the wrong family. So it's just the magpies who are the corvids, and I think ravens and crows. Have we got to finish soon? We've just had so many great emails over the weekend so let's just do some more. Alison offers this. Following on from an earlier theme of supermarket names in

other countries, I do feel compelled to let you know that in Bologna and presumably other Italian towns and cities there's a supermarket called Pam. Brilliant, absolutely brilliant. I would go to Pam, definitely. Another good one, Fee and Jane, sorry Jane, this is how I came to know you both at the other place and I can't change, I don't mind. Every word of the following anecdote is true. I do. In 2014 I went from a shoulder-length brunette bob to a pixie cut. I also wore a fairly dark-rimmed glasses. Well at that time I was working in hospitality and one evening after the chop, relatively soon

afterward, I was looking after the hotel dining room. A table by the window was occupied by two ladies of the 1930s 1940s vintage. They were whispering together and glancing quite pointedly at me between whispers. I approached their table to inquire whether they'd like anything else. One of the ladies turned to me and said, ''You look just like that lesbian off the telly.'' Now this wasn't a posh hotel, so I felt I had a little leeway in my replies. ''Clair Balding?'' I asked. ''No!'' came the indignant reply.

Jane Hill, they looked at me blankly. The newsreader I added. No, again came the reply. Oh, I know, I said brightly. Sandy Toxvig. They looked confused. Oh no, I think she's bisexual, I self-corrected apologetically. It turned out all along they meant Sue Perkins,

and that was a compliment as far as I was concerned. Well fast forward four years, I was then working at a five-star hotel dining room. I still had the pixie but the glasses had gone. I was looking after the hotel dining room, it was a Monday evening, pretty quiet, and at a table near the window sat two ladies of 1930s, 1940s vintage. They were whispering together and glancing pointedly at me between whispers. I approached their table to inquire whether they'd like anything else. Does any of this sound familiar? says our correspondent. One lady turned to me and said, You look just like that lesbian police lady. Feeling a reluctant obligation not to offend

the hotel owners by cheeking guests eating their very expensive meals, I merely smiled and said, which one? The one who runs the Met, came the reply. Well if ever I have cause to write my autobiography, its title will be forever, You Look Just Like That, Lesbian, Off the Tele. Thanks for continuing the waspish-chantering, says our correspondent. That's a very nice name for an autobiography, isn't it? Yes. Okay, My Frank, this one comes in from Emily. It'll be the final one from me because although Eve's obviously content

to just sit here all morning listening to us, I've got a rumbling stomach and my halloumi and quinoa homemade salad. It won't eat itself Eve. Emily says I wanted to reach out to you regarding your Nancy. I've got a Frank. He's a seriously gorgeous prematurely aged Whippet Saluki cross who was invited into our home during lockdown. He too is a bear with very little brain, they are quite sick aren't they, who touches our hearts on an almost hourly basis. He struggles to get through doors that aren't completely open and used to tiptoe around groundwater, which was no easy feat when he

lived 50 metres from the English Channel. My proudest doggy mum moments are him racing across the sand and passes by stopping in their tracks to watch him. He has developed a sense of entitlement which is seriously indulged even by the grumpy patriarch of our family home. We've had several long-snouted dogs and would recommend them to anybody thinking of getting a hound. Just be prepared for lots of bony cuddles, very best wishes. You sent some pictures of Frankie's, absolutely gorgeous. He does look lovely. And there's just honestly, Jane, there's something so funny about hounds when they're being really thick. So Nancy will stand by an open door and if it's not completely and utterly open, so it's just a jar, she has to wait for somebody to completely and utterly open

it before she can walk through. What, she just doesn't trust the mechanism? No, she just doesn't. She's just like, what is this? This is not a fully open open door. Oh I see. So I don't know whether it's you know because their eyes are high up on their head or something they can't see sideways but also they do they do that thing with water where Nancy will step in a puddle and she'll hold her pour up for me to dry it before she'll carry on walking. We're going to end with a correspondent who finds herself in Queensland, Australia. And I won't mention her name, madam, but this is your offering. I decided that my ears needed syringing. I know people have had enough of this, but just like this contribution. I thought, well, why can't I do it myself?

Well, I'm here to tell you, you're not meant to do it yourself. I thought we'd made that very clear over the many years now we've been discussing this. You must not do it yourself. Anyway, this lady bought some wax, some wax soul. That must be olive oil, whatever they must call it that in Australia, to soften my wax. And I filled my ears with this. The next day, I filled a syringe with warm salty water and injected the solution quickly into my ear. You should not have done that. You should not do that. It goes on to say I did not anticipate that the fluid would practically fly out of my ear. I simply couldn't

believe the gunk that came out and flew about two feet away, she claims. Now that is a bold claim and if there ever were any kind of earwax Olympics I suspect that would be a gold medal winning performance but I'm not sure I believe it. That's all I'll say there. Ouch! Well that's a burn isn't it? If you'd like to send an email for Jane not to believe in it, then it's janeandphi at times.radio. And we're recording Book Club this week. It'll go out in the Friday feed. So any final thoughts on Eight Months on Gaza Street by Hilary Mantel? We've got a really lovely collection of them so far. There's plenty to talk about and we're going to talk to Hilary Mantel's publicist about her progression through various different subjects and why and when she wrote that

particular book because there is a story behind it. So we will look forward to doing that, recording that and Kinoa Beckons. Congratulations, you've staggered somehow to the end of another Off Air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do do it live, every day, Monday to Thursday, 2 till 4, on Times Radio. The jeopardy is off the scale, and if you listen to this, you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online on DAB or on the free Times Radio app. Off Air is produced by Eve Salisbury and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler. With the FIZ loyalty program, you get rewarded just for having a mobile plan.

You know, for texting and stuff. And if you're not getting rewards like extra data and dollars off with your mobile plan, you're not with FIZ. Switch today. Conditions apply. Details at FIZ.ca. FIZ.ca