Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Women shouting angrily - with Sarah Polley

Episode Date: January 31, 2023

Director Sarah Polley joins Jane and Fi to discuss societal victim blaming, Oscars snubs and her new film ‘Women Talking’.Also top water cooler moments and the daffodil debacle continues…'Women Talking' out in select cinemas from the 10th of February and UK wide from the 17th.If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] Producer: Eve SalusburyTimes Radio Producer: Rosie CutlerPodcast Executive Producer: Ben Mitchell Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Do you have one of those earworms that just sticks in your head? That's mine. It's a little bit like the E.T. thing, isn't it? Aliens thing, but not quite. But it just hums. It's been humming around in my head for about 20 years. Sometimes I think you're an alien. Touchy Tuesday, everybody. I actually didn't really...

E.T. isn't one of my favourite films. I don't think the... Is that from E.T.? Oh, it's Close Encounters. Close Encounters, isn't it? isn't one of my favourite films. Actually, I don't think that... Is that from E.T.? Oh, it's Close Encounters. Close Encounters, isn't it? It wasn't another of my not favourite films. Oh, my God, and you don't like biscuits.

Talk about that French actress. You're in a minor key today, aren't you? Well, I'm only going to talk about that French actress, if you ask me nicely. No, just talk about her. No, I need a please. Thank you. Thank you.

I'm not rude, I'm just French, says Casino Royale star Eva Green, who's in court. Have you ever heard of her, by the way? Because I haven't. Well, I did have to find a picture of her. And Casino Royale isn't one of my all-time favourite Bond movies. So I couldn't quite remember her part in it. Anyway, she was in that. She was a love interest, as most women are in a Bond movie.

Anyway, she was due to do a completely different film which has ended up in a bit of a pickle between her and the producers and the film company and it's ended in court. But some of the detail is just quite funny. Eva, comma, 42, comma, claims that she's still entitled to one million pounds from the film, which is a sci-fi movie that never got made, called A Patriot. The set was shut down in 2019. But Bournemouth filmmakers, White Lantern,

claim she undermined the production and made excessive creative and financial demands. Brace yourselves, everybody. They alleged that she branded the executive producer as a devious sociopath and pure vomit. Pure vomit? Okay. The court also heard that she allegedly called local crew members shitty peasants from Hampshire, prompting her, no, it gets better, prompting her to tell the hearing that she had nothing against peasants. But doesn't mention whether or not she had anything against Hampshire. Thank you very much.

She said, it's my Frenchness coming out sometimes. Sometimes you say things you don't actually mean. I don't think. OK, so when you think about Frenchness, what do you think? Chicken gizzards. How beautiful Paris is, irritatingly, and it is really beautiful. So you think about romance and you think about wine and you think about the language of love.

Yes. But do you think about pure vomit and saying really, really nasty things about people? They are amongst Britain's surlier... Not Britain's, Europe's surlier nations, aren't they? I mean, there is... I'm talking, I suppose, about Paris, where, you know, they do have a certain attitude. Well, maybe.

I don't know where they get it from, because London's... No, the thing is, London isn't... It's not actually... Is it as beautiful as Paris? It's not, really. No, I don't think it is, but I don't think... It's just quite an astonishing... It's astonishingly arrogant and a bit rude, actually, to say that you can call people every name under the sun

because you're French. I'm not sure how welcome she'll be. I don't think she's going to be. What do they call that when there's a woman who's the face of the nation? I don't think she's going to be the next. Oh, yes. You know, Catherine Deneuve.

What do they call it? It's not on the tip of my tongue, although it's somewhere in my mind somewhere. So you know what I mean. Yeah, I do. Anyway, it just made me laugh. The case continues. Oh, yes, the case.

That's very important. The case very definitely continues. French woman in slightly unpleasant shocker. But the case continues. That's very, very important. Not been found that she is in any way unpleasant, has it? No, or that the executive director was a sociopath made of pure vomit.

No. The lady who used to espouse tidiness has given up because she's now got three kids. Why is anybody surprised by Marie Kondo's decision to abandon her earlier tidying technique in the face of three little people in the home. She's got two daughters and a son and she now just throws her hands up and just says, let mayhem commence. But I quite admire her approach, which was this thing called the

Konmari method. I think that's how you pronounce it. It used to encourage people to separate personal items into categories, starting with clothes, then books, papers, miscellaneous items and sentimental items. And the next step is to figure out which possessions spark joy. And then if the possession doesn't spark joy, you just hurl it out. OK, so I've got a problem with that. A universal charger doesn't spark joy, but I'm not going to throw it out. Well, it's interesting because today I've had some decorating done. Would you throw out a universal charger?

No. No. No. No. So that's just silly. Have I in the past? Quite possibly, by mistake. But you'd lose everything in your house.

You'd throw your glasses in the bin. No, I didn't throw them in the bin. No, I found them on top of the soda stream. Keep up. Go on. Well, no, but you can't only have things in your house that spark joy you just need some of the basics offspring for example do not consistently spark joy but i'm not going to throw them out or the cat um no it can't spark joy i have got a lot

of tosh particularly in my bedroom i realize realise. You know, my pebble collection, those ornaments that the children have given me. Because, you know, the London kids go on that day trip to Calais. Mine never did. Who did they? My children did. That's West London. Well, it was a primary school. They got on a coach.

I think it was at about five in the morning and went to Calais and back in the same day. And they all went to the same gift shop and all came back with these awful... We haven't got the French, have we? With these awful trinkets, which obviously I treasure. It's one of the great things of growing up in London. The idea that if in Liverpool we could have gone on a day trip to France and back, it just wouldn't have been possible. I think in East London that's considered a bit far.

It's probably far over here because it'd take you four or five days to make your way across. The kids did go mudlarking on the banks of the River Thames. Did your kids do that? Oh, it was fantastic. It's very East London, you see. No, so I think lots of schools do it. But it is funny because they will come back inevitably with some piece of pottery that may well have been around in Shakespeare's time.

Or equally. A packet of JPS that's been fossilised in 1974. Yeah. Back to me, which is much more important, and my decorating, which has been, I think it's fair to say, it's now an ongoing saga. Various things have happened. The decoration is currently off with a bad knee. And I'm beginning to wonder whether my hall and stairs

are ever going to be completed. But a bookshelf has been done. Beautiful, actually. It's done lovely coats, several coats on this bookshelf. So I now need to put my books back. But that means I was going to chuck some books out. And it's actually very difficult to get rid of books to charity shops. I went to two today and they're both a bit sniffy.

And in fact, the first one was in a bit of a temper. And I just sort of barged in and said, I've got to go work because he tried to say something like we're not open yet and i just said no i've got to go to work and there was a big sign on the door that said maximum of two bag donation i mean you do think do they want my charity donations or do they not well i would say that all the signs are pointing to no but my books are actually quite good quality just because i don't want them. I couldn't put books in a bin bag and just chuck them out. No, no, I'm with you on that.

Why don't you just put them outside your house and see who takes them? I quite often do that, and they go overnight. Really? Yeah, but I don't think anybody in my road would want Robbie Fowler's autobiography. Well, you'd be surprised. Would I? OK. I'm sorry, Robbie, that I have thrown it out, by the way, but it'll now be on sale in a very good local charity shop.

Well, I'll keep going with that. And also, you can find your local dump will have... Sorry, refuse collection area. It's probably not a dump anymore, is it? ...will have special books. Yeah, I didn't know that they had those. Well, I mean, I don't want to keep bringing this up. We're a warring partnership enough as it is,

but there is, in East London, there is a book bank at the local dump, is there? Yes. Okay. I might just, why don't you come and take my books? I mean, you can take them to the dump. I am not doing your chores for you. Did you see the Times article today

about TV water cooler moments? I did, and I couldn't... I'm not been standing at the same water cooler. No. Well, it's interesting because actually we don't have a water cooler, which puts us at some disadvantage here. I suppose the only TV show that has been consistently talked about in the last couple of weeks is Happy Valley,

and the rest of the time TV doesn't... Because TV isn't the universal experience that it once was. Because we're not all watching it at the same time. No, so it's a bit sad in a way. But the article in The Times today mentions three that I do recall. Deirdre Barlow in the street choosing to stay with Ken and not go off with Mike Baldwin. Yes.

That was 1983. Do you remember that? Yes, I do. And didn't Mike flounce off back into the factory, didn't he? I think he did, yeah. And I think there was a game at Old Trafford that night, Manchester United were at home, and they flashed up on the screen that Deirdre was staying with Ken.

It was that significant. And then there was Dirty Den serving divorce papers on long-suffering Ange in the Queen Vic in 19... I'm going to say 1996. Way off. 86. 86! 86!

86. OK. Yeah, that was when EastEnders was proper. And then the other one, I mean, I just don't believe that this was awarded. It doesn't really fit the relatively cosy world of Coronation Street and EastEnders. Threads, that awful BBC programme about nuclear war, which was truly horrific, and went out on BBC One in 1984.

And I don't think it's ever been shown again. And I'm glad because it's truly awful, as in brilliant and utterly terrifying. And I hope our leaders around today have seen it. Is that the one that alleges the conspiracy with the government behind it? No, it's a much, no it isn't that one. It's a very very powerful BBC film about the impact of a nuclear attack on Sheffield

and it is honestly utterly petrifying. You can see it on YouTube but I would I wouldn't actually advise it I made the, it was an error, of watching it a couple of years ago when I discovered it was available, and it hasn't got any easier. Did they have Jason and Kylie getting married in the top water cooler moments? I thought you were going to say, did they annihilate Jason and Kylie

in the nuclear attack on Sheffield? Not that I'm aware of, no. They had who shot JR, didn't they? Yeah, well, we all remember that. Although I can't ever remember who did shoot JR. I want to say Kirsten. Oh. Yep.

You can say it. I'm not entirely sure. No. So our guest this afternoon was Sarah Polley, who is interesting and the director of? She's the director of Women Talking, which is an Oscar-nominated movie, which you'll be able to see in cinemas next week,

which is based on a book, and the book is based on a true story, and the true story is really horrendous, isn't it? Well, it is, and it was based on a novel that I think, I can't be certain about this. I think I interviewed the author on Woman's Hour some years ago, because this incident happened not in the States, but actually in in South America, in Bolivia. That's where it actually happened in this Protestant community. But in Sarah Polley's film, it is it doesn't say where it's there's no time or place, is there?

No, but I think you're kind of asked to imagine that it's somewhere in the plains of America. Right, OK. I know there's a burst of music at one point, isn't there? Yeah. We should probably explain a bit more about who Sarah Polley is because she does a very good job of talking about what the film is based on. So she's an actor, director, writer, activist.

She had a very successful career as a child actor starring in lots of things in her native Canada in fact she won quite a few awards when she was about 8 or 9 years old for starring in things over there and she then turned her hand after she'd acted in some films as a grown-up to directing most notably a TV adaptation of Alias Grace the Margaret Atwood book and she then turned her hand, after she'd acted in some films as a grown-up, to directing, most notably a TV adaptation of Alias Grace, the Margaret Atwood book,

and now this one, Women Talking, which has been nominated for Best Picture, not Best Director, and we do talk about that in the interview. So it is the story of a group of women who've been drugged and raped by men who are living in their shared religious community. And we started by asking her about that book that Women Talking is based on and the truth that lies behind the book. Yeah, so the film is based on the novel Women Talking by Miriam Tabes. And Miriam, the jumping off point for the book, and I just want to be clear about that this is the background of the film in the book not what actually takes place in the film or the book, where the series of attacks that happened in a Mennonite colony in Bolivia in the early 2000s and it went on for years, where women were attacked in the night and tranquilized with cow tranquilizer and raped. And it went on for years in the Manitoba colony in Bolivia. And eventually, some of the men were caught and taken to prison. And from there, Miriam's book is a fictionalized imagining of what might have happened if all of the men had gone

to the city to bail the men out of prison and the women had all gathered, representatives of all the women had gathered in a hayloft to decide whether or not they would stay and fight for a different kind of colony, whether they would stay and forgive the men or whether they would leave and create a colony of their own. So when the men leave, there is a vote, and then elected representatives of the stay and fight side and of the leave side, along with a few of the do nothing side, go into a hayloft to debate what the future of the colony will be. And overhanging that debate is this terrible weight of religion or the interpretation of religion, isn't it? This notion that you will not get to

heaven if you leave the community, which is just such an extraordinarily difficult thing, I think, for the viewer watching that. Yeah, I mean, I think that actually throughout the course of this film, what these women are trying to do is figure out how to get closer to the true essence of their faith, which necessarily means parsing out and discarding many of the structures and power structures that have sprung up around their faith and the sort of insidious structures around their religion. But in fact, what they're not doing is trying to cast off their faith. And the film and the book certainly isn't a takedown of Mennonites or of faith communities. It's about these women trying to figure out how do we live more purely according to our faith? And does that require actually creating a new structure around this religion? It's such a clever film, Sarah. Did

you think that when you first read the novel, because it's about the different layers that women bring to the world and how individual everybody is within this construct of gender? I mean, I did love when I read the book at how Miriam allowed for so many different responses to violence so that there wasn't one valid response. And I think, you know, we are seeing over and over again in our society, this idea of what a perfect victim is supposed to look like and behave like and what a response should look like, especially in a court of law to sexual assault in order for it to be credible. And I loved that Miriam allowed for such a variety of valid responses to this kind of event.

Yeah, so you can watch the film. And, and I've certainly found that various different points, I completely agreed with what was being said, but it had been completely different to what had been said earlier. So it does take you on that journey. It is very intense, though. So when you're directing that, how do you bring some kind of relief to that intensity? I noticed there was a lovely moment at the beginning where one of the younger women simply opens a window in the barn, in the hayloft, and there's this shaft of sunlight in and actually as a viewer, you kind of go, oh my God, thank God for that. So is that on your mind all of the time? Yeah, I mean, I think that it was really important in this film that there be laughter, that there be a sense of optimism and hope that pervaded.

I think that it was essential. I think what drew me to telling this story was that it wasn't just about identifying harms. It was also about thinking about what's a way forward. thinking about what's a way forward. And so there had to be light in that and humour in that and a sense of looking towards what might be built as opposed to just what might be destroyed. And is the time on the set, I don't want you to give away too many kind of secrets

of your craft and art, but when you are filming something with such an amazing group of actors as well at such a high level of intensity, what happens when you are filming something with such an amazing group of actors as well, at such a high level of intensity, what happens when you stop filming? Do people stay at that kind of level or does everyone just kind of go? I mean, there was raucous laughter on the set, which was so important for all of us. I mean, you know, there was also a lot of nurturing of each other. So I felt like the cast really rallied around each other for the more difficult moments.

We also had a therapist on set for the more difficult moments. But I felt like that sense of fun was always there every day. Do you think, Sarah, if you'd made this film 10 years ago, that the scenes of sexual violence would have been much more explicit? I mean, not if I had made it, but I think that we're coming to more and more of an awareness of what images we put out there and what they mean and what the impact might be. Certainly for me, I rarely find graphic images of sexual assault additive or useful, and they can, in fact, be quite harmful. So for for me I just wanted to avoid that from the beginning and the book avoids that as well and this film is really about these women constructing

something not about the details of their trauma and it's also interesting that there is uh the character of a good man uh the man played by Ben Whishaw how how significant is that I felt like it was incredibly important. I think in that spirit of what do we want to build rather than what we want to destroy? What do we want to see rather than just what we don't want to see? I thought it was really important to have a male character that was essentially good and that did offer some hope. You do need men to see this as much as women, don't you? Is that in your head when you're directing? Yeah, I mean, I think that, you know, I don't really have a sense of the gender of the audience or the background of the audience watching the film while I'm making it. But I think that there'd be no point to making this film if it was only to be seen by one gender. I think it's relevant to people of all genders.

Yeah, but let's be honest about it. Will men flock to a film with the title? And I'm asking because we know that it's traditional that women will see a male centered film, but men won't do the opposite. No, and it's been kind of hilarious seeing some of the online chatter about the title because people sometimes respond to it as though we've said women shouting angrily it's actually just called women talking and it's like a movie like 12 angry men we wouldn't question whether women would go and see it so it is um it is an interesting thing to just sort of pull apart why why the responses to the title. At the same time, it is by its very nature in the society we're in, it's a provocative title.

And so I'm not surprised there's conversation around it. It just shouldn't be provocative, that's all. I know that you're probably dreading the very inevitable question about not getting a nomination for Best Director at this year's Oscars. So we'll expect a beautifully rehearsed answer, Sarah. But it is true that they're not beautifully rehearsed. But I will say, I mean, I was thrilled that we got a Best Picture nomination because it's really acknowledging the work of everyone. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's still terrible. You don't have to say that, Sarah.

It's still terrible. I'll be very honest. I did not shed a tear for myself not getting a Best Director nomination. I think that was really clear I did not shed a tear for myself not getting a Best Director nomination. I think that was really clear for a long time that no women were getting into that slot. And I mean, that says something broader. For me, this could have been the first year ever that a Black woman was nominated for Best Director. So for me, that's the conversation around representation. I mean, not that there should only be one slot for a female director. That's ridiculous.

But if there was going to be one, I think I would have been more excited to see The Woman King or Till Yes. But so how does the jury on that particular category operate? Is it in isolation to all of the other awards? And what is going a bit wrong for that to be a fact? I'm going to be really honest with you. I don't follow these things at all. And this is all quite new to me. I mean, I've been down this road before with films, but I'm certainly not an awards pundit. I don't necessarily know how voting systems work. I mean, clearly, there were some great films and performances this year that were not acknowledged. And I'd love to know what the systemic reasons behind that were, but I actually don't know what they are. Okay, fair enough. Well, we nominate you and then we give you the gong. Are you going to the ceremony? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So if you win Best Picture, then there's your moment. I mean, you've presumably you've already got in your head what you'd like to get

off your chest, if you see what I mean. I have not written a speech. My expectations being low serves me well. We're talking to director Sarah Polly. Jane asked Sarah about whether the film's essence about violence against women and how to deal with it has more resonance now than ever. I mean, I think the film is speaking to most cultures, including our own. I think that anywhere where there's systemic or institutional complicity or societal complicity with abuse or injustice of any kind, I think the film speaks to that. And so I think the film speaks to our culture as much as deeply religious cultures. Were you thinking about certain countries in the world and the way they treat their female citizens when you were making the film?

I mean, as much, I was thinking as much about Canada and the United States and England as I was about those countries, to be honest with you. Yeah, I mean, I'm absolutely not suggesting for one minute that the UK, for example, is a paradise for women. But we do, we do have more agency. We are allowed at least to vote and to express ourselves up to a point although there's there's often a price to be paid for sticking your head above the parapet and I'm sure in Canada as well. Yeah I mean I think though what I would say is that you know even if you just look at the film industry the amount of abuse that was happening for so many years where nobody was talking about it and there was complicity and an expectation that people would just accept it and not make a fuss is equally relevant to me.

I mean, obviously, that's not what the film is about, but I just think it's everywhere. I think this idea of a kind of societal complicity and culpability, as opposed to just pointing the finger at individuals. I think it's just a conversation that needs to be had quite generally. You have recently compiled a book of essays, if that's the right verb to use, the title of which explains quite a lot about your personality. Could you explain a little bit about Run Towards the Danger? Because that's what you were told by a neuroscientist, neurosurgeon after a very bad head injury you'd had. Yeah, he was a concussion specialist at the University of Pittsburgh Medical Centre named Dr. Michael Collins. And I'd had a concussion that kind of followed me around for

about three and a half years on and off where it was very hard for me to function at a normal level. I certainly would not have made a film again. I tried every kind of treatment there is. I eventually ended up in his care and a lot of the advice I'd been given to go lie in a dark room or rest or not multitask as much and to avoid the things that were causing my symptoms to be exacerbated. His advice alongside, I want to be clear, a lot of very specific vestibular exercises and physical exercises was to actually do more of the things that were bothering me. So if something caused my symptoms or was uncomfortable for me, I was actually to do more of it because the more I avoided things, the worse my brain was getting at dealing with them. So his thing was, you know, as if you remember only one thing from this meeting, remember this, run towards the danger. So that became a kind of anthem for me in terms of looking at the difficult

things, doing the difficult things, moving towards discomfort instead of living in a protective crouch. But it seems to actually sum up so much of your life, Sarah, even before that head injury. I mean, you started acting when you were very, very young. You seem to have embraced acting and directing with the same kind of fierceness and vigour. You had by no means a completely normal family life. How do you kind of put all of that together? Is it just the luck of the draw? Or is it something about your personality? I mean, I have had really good people along the way sort of show up when I've most needed it. I've been really lucky. I've had really good therapy. I meditate every day. I have physical exercise every day.

I think, you know, I do probably, I think anyone who's had trauma in their past, I require a little bit more maintenance, but I'm fine when I have that maintenance. And when I take care of those things and do those things that are sort of, you know, touchstones for me, I can have a really, you know, thriving life. And so I've just sort of more and more as I get older, worked on figuring out how do you live alongside these things and find joy. What would you say now as an adult woman, mother of three children, to that very, very young child actor? I mean, you detail in the essays some pretty horrendous experiences when you were working on the, it was the Baron Munchausen film, wasn't it? Which just doesn't sound like a nice set to be on at all.

I mean, a lot of the experience I had as a child were not pleasant on film sets. I mean, film sets are professional environments for adults, not really for kids. And the adults in those environments generally aren't trained to be with kids or maybe even particularly interested in the well-being of kids. So I think it's just not conducive to a healthy childhood to be in a professional environment. But what would I say to her? Would you say get out and do something else? I mean, I think I was pretty clear on that at a certain point. I think more that I think most people are more resilient than they think they are. And so I would have wanted to advise myself to focus more on the resilience than I would have thought possible. That is the former child actor Sarah Polley, highly successful director. Her film Women Talking has been nominated for Best Picture in the Oscars,

which I think come your way in a couple of weeks. I think you did ask me if I was going to stay up for them. And you're not. Well, I'm not. I'm very happy to find out the next morning with my cereal. I love a highlight package. I think that's what the Oscars are designed for. I don't think even the people who win want to sit through it.

Well, didn't the lovely Olivia Colman, she said, I think she was on Graham Norton, and she was asked about some of the big things that have happened at Oscar ceremonies in the past, and she did say, no, we were all in the bar. You know, if you're invited to the ceremony, it goes on for about eight hours.

So quite a lot of the time you are out of your seats. Yeah, and who can blame them? I know. I think the only way to get through would be to have a tipple or six. Should we do email corner? Let's do email corner. Oh, the £1 daffodils. This comes in from Hannah.

So this is what Jane was talking about yesterday. At some length. Dear Jane and Fee, every Saturday my husband brings home a bunch of £1 daffodils from his supermarket visit to see his dad. Every Saturday our daughter reminds him that I can't bear having daffodils in the house in January. They're my favourite flower, but I can't handle the false dawn that spring is nearly here. Once they are out in the wild, I'll happily give them bar space.

And she goes on to say she's very much enjoying the new show. She had moved over to Times Radio for Matt Chorley and Hugo Rifkind. And now has her afternoon sorted too. Well, that's much more like it at the end there, Hannah. And I slightly agree with you, actually, about the daffodils, because I think February is too soon. You see, it's because I do, I think I probably do find this time of year a bit hard. And so I don't care whether it's a false dawn. I just want a dawn, which is why I love the daffodils.

And so does Jenny, who emailed to say, I've got to agree with Jane. Daffodils do lift the mood. Reassure me spring is on the way and they are the best value for anything, anywhere. No idea how they do it for a pound, but I've got to mentally push the economic equation to one side so I can enjoy these wonderful harbingers of spring. Yeah, Jenny's speaking my language. I also get quite

reassured when the men's rugby union starts. This is the Six Nations or there are more nations now, I can never remember, but it starts I think this weekend or the weekend after. Six Nations. Six Nations, or there are more nations now, I can never remember. But it starts, I think, this weekend or the weekend after. Six Nations. Six Nations, and that's always quite exciting, because that means that it'll soon be time for, you know, spaghetti strap tops, things like that.

Really? Will it be time to get an ankle out? Oh, yes, and I'll probably have to have a couple of pedicures to see me through the summer. Gosh. I look forward to that. I always like going with an ankle a little bit too soon. Have you got an ankle chain? No, but I don't think my ankle would be something... Well, I've got two.

I don't think my ankles would be something that I wanted to draw attention to adorned with jewellery. So we'll be leaving it at that. But I do like to get them out around March time. They're quite chunky. This one comes from Katie who says, I'm a super fan of your podcast. I've listened to every episode.

They've always been a comfort to me, especially when I'm nursing a hangover or feeling a little lonely. Well, we're here for you, Katie, on both those occasions. Most listeners seem to say they had trouble adjusting to your move. I was just relieved you were continuing, so thank you. Well, so were we.

I was compelled to write in after listening to Fi talk about Sam Smith's music video at the beginning of Monday's podcast. She was questioning about what should and shouldn't be allowed in music videos. I hadn't actually seen the music video yet, but this prompted me to watch. I found myself waiting and waiting for something outrageous to happen, but it never did. All I saw was a fun party, a lot of dancing and some racy outfits. How is that different from most music videos made by cis men with women dancing all over them in bikinis or less? Robbie Williams' rock DJ video had him stripping completely naked and then pulling off his own skin. I watched that when I

was very young on MTV and I think I've turned out okay. I think the outrage around this video is because Sam Smith is not a straight man with a six-pack. A lot of hate has been directed at his body. We need to think twice about why we're finding something tasteless or worrying. It's just your own prejudices shining through. Not directing that at you, Fi, but at the haters Sam is getting online. Well, Katie, my eyebrow raising at the video was because of the recreation of what's known in the trade, I believe, as a golden shower.

So I don't mind the dancing. I don't mind Sam Smith's body. I think his outfits are superb actually I'm not I'm really really don't have a problem with that at all it's because there's a sexual act in those videos it is it is fairly explicit isn't it I that was the bit that I thought yeah and and so I actually do you know what I don't really object to Sam Smith's video at all, but found myself having to have a conversation with two children about what a golden shower was after they

had been sent clips specifically of that part of the video, not the whole video, clips of that, because that had gone up on the socials as, look what's in Sam Smith's latest work. So that's why I was just a bit, I'm not sure about this.

Because it does, and we talked about this really seriously on the programme today, that line, dividing line, between entertainment, erotica, pornography and exploitation is really blurred at the moment. It is really blurred. It's quite difficult for... Politicians don't really seem willing to discuss it. The incredible free acts, free and open access that very young, vulnerable children have to pornography appears to be a subject that politicians on the whole don't really seem to want to discuss in public.

public. And I don't know whether it's that they're squeamish, that they're embarrassed, that perhaps they feel only too well aware of maybe their own personal use of pornography as adults. That's up to them. I wouldn't judge anybody. You do what you like, as long as you're not viewing anything improper or illegal. But I just, I don't understand why this is a, you know, this quite regular, this statistic that very young children are seeing pornography it's not a new thing and nor is it new that young children have seen pornography that they can't make any sense of yes and need to ask questions yeah it's just that we've now got to a stage where kids who haven't kissed a member of the opposite or the same sex have seen images of golden showers anal sex strangulation choking yeah it's just we are living in a different

world a world these children haven't created it's not their fault they've been born into it and we're really expecting them just to deal with it yeah i don't get it no neither do i and also i think um when when it becomes very mainstream so it's in a music video that's easily accessible you have to be prepared to answer the questions that will come from children and teenagers really really honestly talking

about it with exactly the kind of descriptive language that we've just been able to do here but we can't say that if we're on air on the radio. We've got these very odd things going on. Everybody can go and watch Sam Smith's video, but you and I couldn't have this chat on air. There's just something not right.

There's just not helping the kids, Jane. It's not helping the kids. And in Parliament, they can discuss the online safety bill. Online safety bill. But I don't actually think I've heard a leading politician talk in graphic, plain English about what our young children are being exposed to. And the last time that pornography was discussed

with relevance to Parliament, it was because of Tractor Porn, Neil Parrish, the MP, and it became a humorous conversation because people didn't even want to talk about that. I thought that was pathetic, actually. Serious. That was a sort of opportunity to, I mean, I'm not, it's hard to, I don't want to pick on individual politicians, but you'd think, oh, go on.

I suppose I shouldn't say this. Maybe I want a female politician to take this up as her cause. But then, no, actually, that's complete complete rubbish it should be a man who does it it should really be a man who takes this on and says i want to be the person who stands up and says sometimes rather difficult things about pornography yeah i'd like government information films back on and i'd like some of those to just say most women don't want to have physical aggression or strangulation when it comes

to a nice date at the age of 14 or 15 or any age actually. That's the kind of conversation I'd like. So look what you've done there Katie, you've stimulated debate. Thank you very much indeed for your email, it's janeandfee at times.radio. Anything that you'd like to talk about? Kathy takes us to task task when the original email from your listener about her husband's

mate's whatsapp discussion was read out i have to say i was staggered and bemused by your response not by your response to your listener and good for her for being brave enough to send it but come on ladies of course this is about what a lot stroke stroke most men, banter about. Everything in their lives, culture, etc., etc., encourages them to do this, and they presumably mostly encourage each other to do it too. Your interview with Lauren Fleshman alone is a prime example of the reality we live in regarding men's view of women, generally speaking. Thank God the ripples from the poisonous and pernicious patriarchal mess we live in are now being exposed, and more power to the women exposing the ripples from the poisonous and pernicious patriarchal mess we live in are now being exposed and more power to the women exposing the ripples and the men who challenge them too

we need millions more of the latter says kathy um yes i mean you probably make good points about us being staggered and bemused perhaps we are a bit naive about well i think we said it yesterday didn't we that we don't actually know of course what men say about women when we're not there and they don't know what we say about them either No, but do you know what, I'd just really like to hope that that's not the immediate go-to level of conversation in an all-male WhatsApp group

Do you think it is? Well, we don't know do we? No we don't, but I would also hope not And a lovely anonymous one Thank you both for your positive shout-out to the trans community yesterday evening. Much appreciated. And that's a work in progress.

We do want to do more involving all sides of the argument in a non-toxic and, I was going to say, pleasant way. A curious, thoughtful and no-holds-barred way would be nice, wouldn't it? Pleasant is sort of a very pleasant it's not very exciting it's not but it's quite

it's a word that I can imagine is in your vocabulary actually pleasant. Have a pleasant day have a very pleasant Garvey day it's the best any of us can ever hope for don't forget on Thursday we're doing an outside broadcast, as though Steve pointed out earlier, it is inside.

It's at Destinations, which is the UK's biggest travel show. It's good for me because I don't have to travel far from home. It's a bit of a nightmare for Fi, because she's got to get to Kensington Olympia, and she lives about as far away from that place as you can possibly get. But it's a travel show, so I'm going to give it my very, very best kind of travel vibe. Yeah, well, see you tomorrow. You have been listening to Off Air with Jane Garvey and Fee Glover.

Our Times Radio producer is Rosie Cutler and the podcast executive producer is Ben Mitchell. Now, you can listen to us on the free Times Radio app or you can download every episode from wherever you get your podcasts. And don't forget that if you like what you heard and thought, hey, I want to listen to this, but live, then you can, Monday to Thursday, 3 till 5 on Times Radio. Embrace the live radio jeopardy.

Thank you for listening, and hope you can join us off air very soon. Goodbye.