Off Air... with Jane and Fi - You do sound a complete dilberry (with Clare Chambers)

Episode Date: September 16, 2024

Jane's had a filling, excuse the drool. To Fi's delight, this also means there will be no apple-eating at the desk today! They also chat alpaca adoption, novelty knickers, fruit fly lagoons of death and hot priests. Plus, Fi speaks to the novelist Clare Chambers about her latest book 'Shy Creatures'. Our next book club pick has been announced! 'The Trouble with Goats and Sheep' by Joanna Cannon.If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiPodcast Producer: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Wouldn't it be wonderful to just have a horse in the back garden? I could come to work on a horse. I mean, there's absolutely nothing. You're not allowed a limed bike anywhere near this building. But doesn't it think about a horse? Does it? Hi, I'm Adam Vaughan, Environment Editor for The Times. At the 2024 Times Earth Summit, our discussion on the essential steps for a net zero transition

will be set against a backdrop of the biggest election year in history. The governments voted in this year will face a crucial period for the sustainability agenda. This transition will be theirs to accelerate and all our futures will be affected by whether or not they do so. To book your ticket to this year's summit, head to times Earth Summit.com forward slash virtual. ACAST powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend. Hi everybody. It's jungle Jim Jerome, and I'm super excited to tell you that Inside Curling is back with Canadian and world curling hall of famers, Kevin

Martin and Warren Hanson. I'm Kevin Martin. And this curling season, we will be bringing you our ever-popular weekly show along with special coverage from Canadian Championships, World Championships and of course the Grand Slam of Curling. I'm Warren Hanson. Our weekly show will bring you five popular segments. What's happening around the curling world, hot rock topics, mailbag, what are you hearing

and in the house. First show of this season will be coming at you September 16. Look out, here we come. Acast helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com. And the mic's up. Eve's back. Yes. And we're in safe hands. She had a good holiday. Thanks for asking. You did have a good holiday, didn't you? I did. Yeah. Any tips? Not yet. Okay. Well, she's working on some new tips, she'll have some more. Did you all have lovely weekends? Let's include everybody in that conversation. You did? Great, let's move on. Oh, no go on. Did you?

Yes, it was good actually, yes, did you? I did too, I had one of those really, really lovely not busy weekends, you know when actually you do have time to just choose to do a chore because it feels like it's a nice thing to do. To do. In the shafts of sunlight, catch motes of dust in the laundry room. Well can I say? That's where you'll find me. The quality of light over this weekend was rather beautiful. Really beautiful. Yeah it was, let's just acknowledge that because there's a lot of turmoil in the world that hasn't come as news to anybody and sometimes just taking note of the beautiful stuff it's worth doing. So yeah I cleared out my store cupboard. There you go. Exactly that feeling. So do you have the same kind of imperative in September to do a little bit of clearing out as you do in the more kind

of dominant spring cleaning vibe of the year. I think there is something, I don't think it ever leaves you that change in September. Now it's the whole, do something. Just make a change or make a difference or just clear up some mess. And I'll tell you what, have we got some packets of rice in our store cupboard? You know those sachets that you stick in the microwave? They're fantastically useful and they appear to last because I was checking, I had enough time on my hands yesterday to check the eat by dates. They last for years everybody. What

the hell's in them? God alone knows. They're so handy. Do they go back to iron age? Well they'll just keep going allegedly until 2027. Oh I see. You know they last forever. So I'm glad they exist and I probably don't want to know how it is they're able to last so long. I'm glad they exist because if you have a little piece of salmon they're just the job sticking in the microwave and there you go. I agree. A range of flavours. But I guess do they now fall under ultra processed food? That's where I don't want to go. Okay, let's not go there then. Do you find it helpful that the best before dates

have been dropped on fruit and vegetables in quite a lot of supermarkets now? I think we didn't really need them. You can tell by picking, I had a carrot in the, I was clearing out the fridge as well, I picked a carrot up clearly beyond its prime. So I'm afraid that did have to go. In the still operating though fruit fly attracting food waste bin in the kitchen. Had it gone squidgy. It would have been no use in a crisis. You know at all. When you can bend a carrot all the way round. I still shove it in a stock, Jane. Would you? Yes. Okay. Well I'm afraid I decided not to. We came up with one of those traps for fruit flies, because there's been a plague of the fruit flies, I don't know whether you're

similarly afflicted. The old apple cider vinegar, a bit of sugar and some fairy liquid or something, other washing up fluids are available and it attracts them and they all die, it's quite satisfying. That's very nice, but in rather a gungey mess. Not attractive, but it's a talking point. Hey, we all need them. A fruit fly lagoon of death. Exactly. Do come round any time you like. Now, did you watch Night Sleeper? Is it called Night Sleeper? Well, that is the new BBC One, very mainstream, nine o'clock Sunday night drama following from Cher, Did I Turn Back Time? would. Yeah. And it's preposterous and I guess I will watch more.

It's wonderful. Just one simple observation. Why was the very high up in the chain national security lady trying to conduct events from a train carriage where a hen party was in full flow when she could just have moved? Yeah, I think the train looked empty. Why didn't she just move to another carriage? Yep. It's preposterous. Sorry, I'm slightly lisping because I've had a filling and the numbing hasn't quite worn off. Have you? I tell you what, they see you coming at the dentist, don't they? Good God. Is it written by the same man that wrote Line of Duty? It is, isn't it? Is it a Jed McCurio feast?

I don't think it is. I might look it up. Or is it just Jeb Mercurio style? Come on, who's going to own up to writing Night Sleeper? Somebody wrote it. The music is incredibly similar to Line of Duty. It actually opens with the same chord on the piano, I'm pretty sure, and it's just got that unbelievable amount of acronym detail in it. So you know when it just got comical in Line of Duty that they'd have an ANPR CIS check on a DNA that would come in on a DOA and something like that and you were just left going what what so this is pretty similar but it's about computers this time and there's just nothing as stressful in a television drama than a computer that's

been hacked I mean that is the place to go now isn't it? Well because we can all relate on a small domestic level can't we? But also you don't... I mean I would have thought it's dreamy for a writer because very very few people are going to understand it enough to write and go, oh I think you're fine. That flange wouldn't fit into that socket so you'd be a fool to attempt it. So you just get fantastically bewildered really really quickly. I'm in, I'm bewildered, I'll watch more of this. Okay do you want to do an email and I'll look up who wrote Night Sleeper? Still available on the iPlayer. It's from

Anonymous. Back in the early 80s I rather cherish my novelty bra and pants set. The fabric featured a black and white crossword design. Gosh, that sounds very attractive. It mysteriously went missing. Turns out my eight years junior sister had bunked a day off school and my fun undies were with her. She took them to go and see Barry Manilow in Manchester. It seems that she and her friend firstly unsuccessfully stalked him in his hotel and then at the show she hurled the undies on stage to him, on which she had biroed her phone number in the blank crossword squares. Surprisingly not. He didn't call. But anonymous thank you. She went on to a lifetime career working as a presenter for the BBC in the North of England, during which time she interviewed many famous names, but sadly never Barry. Thank you to that anonymous contributor and I just love the sheer confidence of a young

woman who thought it was worth hurling her sister's novelty bra and pants set at the great Barry Manilow, who I think by the way sorry I started to drool because of the numbing I think Barry Manilow is one of those people who has been knocked fairly consistently but is one of those showbiz joybringers and I say leave Bazelow yeah I would agree I think he's written some great songs yeah and performed many brilliant ones and and his songs you can always sing along to them. You think that you don't like Barry Manlow, but actually you know all the words. Jeb and Curie had nothing to do with Night Sleeper.

Who is responsible? Well, it was revealed in December 2022 that the BBC had commissioned the series written by Nick Leather, who is also executive producer alongside Gaynor Holmes for Euston Films. Executive producers also include Kate Harewood and Naomi Spanos. Jonathan Curling is producing. The series is directed by Jamie Magnus Stone and John Hayes. I'm available for voiceover work. Well, all of them should take a bow. They should.

And perhaps then something else because, well, like I say say I'm in so it's all very well to mock but what will I be doing at nine o'clock tonight watching more of it. The other tiny weird thing and I don't know whether anybody else has noticed this is that we don't yet know any of the names of the people who are stuck on board the train, spoiler alert if you haven't got as far as episode two. And also I don't know why they didn't get off. Yeah. Why didn't they get off? Why didn't they get off? Well there were there were kind of reasons created, weren't there? Little reasons for each of them. The transport minister is on the train, isn't she?

She is. Yep, she was locked in an executive sleeping carriage, wasn't she? Very busy looking at her own reflection in the mirror, metaphorically and literally. But you don't know any of the other people who are stuck on the train by name, which just seems really bizarre. As a viewer, it's much easier if he's called Brian and the other one's called Betsy. But there is a small child and an alcoholic, I think. Somebody certainly with a drink problem. Drink issue. And one or two other folk who are like... And also, anyway, look, look,

if you haven't seen it, this won't mean anything to you. I wonder whether the action line will go up afterwards. Well, listen, it's the West Coast main line. Anyone who's a regular user of it needs the bloody action line. Have you been triggered? Well, I was on the... No, I'm not going there. Do you know what? I had actually very good experience going to the North West.

Did you? This weekend until the last minute. It was a packed train coming back to London because Liverpool had been playing at home. And I was all good. I had a double seat to myself. Double seat to yourself. Nothing better on a packed train. Because you know, it's quite small. And you know, the seat, and I'm not a large unit, but honestly I get, I feel quite cramped. In the normal standard class I'm talking about here. I thought you usually weren't standard premier. Yes, I didn't on this occasion. And Fia, I don't know why.

Is it because we're close to payday, but not close enough? Pretty much it. Listen, I mean you're right, that's it. Are you inside my head? I hope not. Anyway, all good, until about a minute and a half before that crucial 40 second window when they shut the door before it leaves. And I'm gonna have to say it, a larger gentleman got on. He sat next to me and worse than that, he ate onion and cheese crisps.

More popularly known as cheese don. But it was the overwhelming stench of onion. And it was a family bag. It was a family bag. I just, I've got terrible terrible terrible judgy thoughts about that Jane. I'm sorry to say I can still smell those crisps and just to make it quite confusing as a sort of moral event he picked a newspaper out of his bag and that newspaper was for you? The Guardian. The Times. The Times. The Guardian. No, the Times. So then I thought, now what

do I think? Oh right. Yeah, OK. Move on. Yes, we welcome our fellow Times user in that case, don't we? Well it was. I felt this ludicrous desire to nodudge him and go, I work there. But I didn't. I've been away, says Carol Westwood, for a few days. How dare you! I spent some time catching up with your podcast. I was listening to I've Got To Throw A Bowl Of Spaghetti, that's the title of the podcast, and at the end I thought I heard for you say check your pants.

I rewound and listened again and this time I thought it was check your beds. Neither made sense. I had noticed recently you had a transcript, so I checked that. You said check your beds, neither made sense. I had noticed recently you had a transcript so I checked that. You said check your pets, that made sense a Trump reference, what a handy resource, nearly caught up now, keep up the great pod. I didn't know we had a transcript. So I'm putting it out there because people might want to know that we do have a transcript. So perhaps if you're a little... I never want to see those transcripts. ...hard of hearing.

I'll tell you what though, Fie. You can't understand the accents. That's the next book, isn't it? Just a transcript of these. Come on, why haven't Oliver Collins done that? I don't know. At this time of year there are a lot of the collected columns of... Don't get me started.

So, you know, why not? Well, let's pitch it. I'm looking to Eve, she's a young person, entrepreneurial. I'm not entirely sure that some of this bears much greater scrutiny, Jane. How much anaesthetic have you had this morning? Actually, do you know what, genuinely, it's always a quandary, isn't it? And you feel a bit of a tool, let's just be honest, saying, well, I will need, I did have to say to him, I will need to speak later. You can see him thinking, oh shut up you daft cow. And even as I said

it I was also thinking, you do sound a complete dillbree. I can see which side of your mouth it's on. I'm sorry. Yep. Are the S's particularly troubling? I always find the S quite difficult after a few minutes. I'm going to talk about sexy priests. Okay, you talk about sexy priests. Sophie's in Sunbury. That's a very nice part of the world, isn't it? Following your conversation about priestly garments and Jane's mention of dressing up as your favourite priest in the cassock of his choice,

I spotted the hot priest calendar in a newsagent in Rome. Now, I have heard about this hot priest thing over the years. I do find it a puzzler, I really do. Sophie says we're in Rome for my nephew's wedding, boasts Sophie, and virtually every shop is selling the usual knickknacks, fridge magnets, penis shaped lighters, limoncello in a bottle shaped like a pair of boobs etc. But they also sold this calendar which I'm a little surprised about as priests are surely not here for our earthly delights but our spiritual wellbeing and on the subject of encouraging people to have more children.

This is such a good idea. Has the Pope thought about sperm donation by hot priests? That will be a win-win for him. And the calendar could be a handy catalogue of options. Well I am blown away. Sophie that's a good plan. By the logic, by the commercial opportunity, I think that is wonderful. I would go on Dragon's Den and see whether or not you could, what would you call it? Oh God, Fee, we can't go there and I'm sure nobody's gonna get the chance to go there. Well I tell you what, if you're listening to this late

at night, you're intending to fall asleep afterwards, why not have a think on that? What would a hot priest sperm donation service be called? God... God willing, God speed, God's no. Potluck. I don't know. You can think on it. And get in touch, be very careful. Right, love the show comes from Anonymous. Your discussion about the King sending out celebratory cards was timely for me because my parents have recently received one for their 65th wedding anniversary. Did you know that he did that?

Well, for 65th. Yeah. A few months ago I didn't know they were a thing but my mum had heard about it and asked if I would mind applying for them. You have to apply and send in a copy of the marriage certificate to be accepted as eligible. When the card arrived my parents were really chuffed and I was very pleased for them and their obvious joy. I'm not particularly bothered by the royal family but my parents reaction was lovely to see. This is the reason I'd like to remain anonymous as I don't want to take the shine off an important moment for them but I was disappointed to see the envelope and the card inside

addressed only to Mr. and Mrs. first name and surname of my father. No mention of my mum's first name anywhere. I felt slighted on my mum's behalf by the omission. I didn't say anything at the time and haven't since but it really niggles me and makes me think the patriarchy is alive and well. Mum hasn't commented about it so maybe it doesn't bother her but I find it a real sign of days gone by regards to love the show. Well, so much of that is fascinating. Is 65th a ruby wedding anniversary or something? It's incredibly impressive. Diamond is 60.

I don't think we have names beyond that because it obviously wasn't really a thing. So do you think you can apply from 50? Well, I certainly got a 60th anniversary card for my mum and dad from the late Queen. And actually, as our correspondent reports, I didn't think it would mean as much to them as it apparently did. You know, it was kept on the mantelpiece. I mean, until she disappeared, shortly after she died, died actually that's not connected but they kept it up there because I think with that generation and this is a generalisation I think it really did mean something.

God of course. I didn't see the envelope and I bet they did also just address that one to my dad. But I wonder whether that has to change too in a country that now does accept that you can be happy together without being married. Without being married, yeah. And hopefully a country that recognizes a woman's involvement in a marriage. And after all, Queen Camilla does get to be Queen Camilla. She's not just Queen wife of Charles.

Can we just acknowledge the, is it irony here, that obviously the King and Queen Camilla haven't been married that long. They will never get a card from themselves. Relatively speaking, no. And also they were in what we might call an informal arrangement before they went to church and was it church and did it? I can't remember. Anyway, let's just acknowledge that, shall we? We have. Well they've been together a lot longer than they've been married. They certainly have been together, yes. Which is why, you know, this is all so ridiculous. Yes, it is. But so many things have come out of that. That's amazing. So thank you very much indeed for your email. We got a fantastic picture. Would you like to describe that? It's our tote bag in a really wonderful place.

Thank you to the person who did the best possible thing with a Jane and Fee tote bag. Describe, explain rather, because I can't describe. Well Andy was delighted on Friday when the tote bag arrived in the post. I promptly packed it with my dog paraphernalia and walked Bronte, my miniature schnauzer, a mile along the coast to Margate to visit Sir Anthony Gormley's sculpture entitled Another Time. This is a life-size concrete cast of Gormley's own naked body looking out into the sea. Do you know what? I'm never going to do that.

Well, I'm really glad that Andy sent this because it has made me think. So Crosby Beach is full of the Anthony Gormley's and it's called Another Place, that one. And I think there are over, I should know this, I think there are well over a hundred images of this naked gentleman. Yes. And it is, you're right, you and I wouldn't. No. I mean, even when times were good, I wouldn't have done that, Jane.

If we were to do it, our statues wouldn't be very tall, so they wouldn't take up too much space. But am I going to bring in the word ego here? I think I just have. It was hanging over the entire conversation. I'm quite sure you'll agree that the work is enhanced somewhat by the tote bag, bearing your smiley face as being slung nonchalantly over its shoulder. Regrettably, the handles are of insufficient length to enable the bag to protect Sir Anthony's modesty." Well, I don't think he's got any!

Don't worry about him! So it is quite strange, isn't it? Well, I suppose there must be lots of sculptresses. But I don't think there are! I'm saying this hopefully, Jane. OK. Because otherwise this is two crushing blows against equality in the space of two emails.

Yes, yes it is. Gosh, we still have so much work to do. We do have a lot of work to do. OK, your challenge, you've got a couple of challenges. Fee sent you the interesting one about the priestly sperm. And I don't know, there's no other way to say that. And then we also need to find a sculptress somewhere in the world who has littered her country with images of her naked form because yeah we would like to hear that yeah very much like to hear about

that. Does that woman exist? That's what we want to know. Yeah. There was one other thing I felt I needed to get off my heaving bosom. Well, was it about wedding cards and gifts? No. No? Okay. Oh, it was, hang on one sec, oh yes, about Kenton Cool and nominating mountains. And I knew this was going to cause offence as soon as Kenton recommended on the podcast last week that you climb, I asked him about relatively easy climbs in the UK and he mentioned Wales but he didn't mention Scotland.

Oh. And in comes... A slight there, Jane. Yeah, well, in comes slightly cross from Pitlokiri who says, right, has he not been to Scotland? Sky, there are many mountains which you need your hands to climb. He claims there's only one in the UK and that is Trefan. I hope I've said that right. And there is never a queue in Scotland. Kenton may have climbed Everest 18 times but he does need to get his arse to Scotland for some

proper gnarly British climbing and some awesome empty wilderness to boot. Keep up the wonderful work. Your cheery chat kept me going along my recent six-week hike along the Scottish National Trail, the borders to Cape Wrath. Wow, I bet that was good. Congratulations, Slightly Cross, and you should be slightly pleased with yourself having accomplished that walk. So don't stay cross for too long, but thank you very much for correcting, well, it was Kenton, mercifully, it wasn't us. For for once it wasn't us, it was a guest. I think he meant it nicely when he recommended climbing in Wales. Yes, but I can see that that would be a little insulting to Scotland. Yeah, more than a little I think.

Yeah, a land of some pretty stunning high altitude scenery. Yeah. Right, and this one comes from Ali, I want to tell you about my duvet situation. Please do. I did use to favour the All Seasons duvet from M&S. Do you know what? Unless they're going to sponsor this podcast, we are not mentioning M&S anymore. Never, ever mentioning them again. You started us off, Eve. By the way, that tip's superb and many people are following it now. Which consisted of a thin four-tog for summer and a thicker nine-tog for spring and autumn.

You could then fasten them together with their press studs to make a 13-tog for winter. Now this is an advance on the 10.5 that came in last week. Perfect, except the filling was polyester, which during the menopause made me sweat buckets, so I binned the lot and started over. Now listen to this. I have a pure silk duvet for warmer weather and a pure alpaca wool duvet for the colder months, no more sweating. They're both utter joy to sleep under, pricey yes but worth the cost for a luxurious night slumber. Change over dates are simple, when

the clocks change. So I won't be putting on the winter duvet till the clocks go back at the end of October and it will stay on until the end of March when the clocks go forward, there you go sorted. Oh, that's totally brisk. It's very brisk indeed. I mean that's, I mean it's certainly... I like the sound of the silk, do you believe? Yeah, I'd never heard of... is alpaca wool that much better than sheep wool? Alpaca. Do you know that? I always think that just to layer is like,

I've got terrible teeth, the alpacas got terrible teeth, I was sticking out of teeth everywhere. Don't laugh about it, it's still not in a good place. I did once, a friend of mine lived quite close to an alpaca farm, you know, weren't they a tax dodge at one point, alpacas? I shouldn't say dodge probably. I think there was a phase where people were, should we say, somewhat manipulating their relationship with HMRC. By buying alpacas. By buying alpacas. I don't think I'm making this up. Well that's a loophole they're going to have to shut down in the upcoming October budget.

Yes, I'm sure Rachel Rees is working on it even now if she hasn't tackled the alpaca situation. No, but does that mean that all alpacas will be vulnerable? I'll have to adopt some. I think with our artificial grass I don't think either of us would be popular with alpacas but I'll take one if you will. Okay it would be quite funny. See how they get on. It would be quite funny. So a friend of mine, yes, I put rampa tea and I always take Nancy wherever I go at the weekends and we were just laughing at the size of Nance and I have thought that I might get another greyhound just because it's going to be so unbearable facing... Don't say it. Yeah exactly that it just might make it easier if we've all got a bit of extra comfort around so we've been

looking at greyhound number two and my friend Helen said why don't you just give in to what is patently happening here and just get a horse. There's something to be said. Wouldn't it be wonderful to just have a horse in the back garden? I could come to work on a horse. I mean there's absolutely nothing. You're not allowed a limed bike anywhere near this building. But doesn't it anything about a horse does it? I don't think I've read that in the small print though so listen go yeah but if you get a horse I'll have to get one because that's just only fair and not really a rider but hey you know embrace

change in your later life. We could both get little Shetland ponies. I think mine would have to be pretty sturdy. Carr says, don't have a pet embargo. We love hearing about Barbara Nancy and the rest of the crew. Oh, don't worry. There's no danger of a Caroline. Don't worry about it. There's no danger of a pet embargo on this podcast. As I will talk about Dora very briefly, I've got a fantastic photograph of Dora with her paws crossed, which you like that posh paws, posh paws, which I am planning to use on or around the American election Day. It's

going to ruin the joke now, but I'm going to save it and put it out then. She looks very cute, but also a little anxious. Well, I'm not surprised. Who can blame her? The world is getting more dangerous and understanding how helps. I'm Alex Dibble and I present The Times' World in 10 podcast where we hear from military specialists and our renowned foreign correspondents. The most likely cause of a world war in the next 10 years, this isn't something you want to get mixed up. President Putin will sow discord in the alliance.

The World in 10 is every day and just for 10 minutes. Do join us. Acast powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend. On set with from HGTV and Max takes you behind the scenes of the most iconic on-screen worlds with the people who made them real. I'm the production designer.

Director of photography. Costume designer. Set decorator. Find out how these spaces that live rent-free in our minds came to be and provide the perfect backdrop for our favorite TV shows like Friends, True flat circle and more listen to onset with on max or wherever you get your podcasts Acast helps creators launch grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere a cast calm Claire chambers is one of our favorite authors. Her new novel is called Shy Creatures that tells the story of Helen and Gil, their love affair set against the background of where

they both work in a mental hospital in Croydon in the 1960s. And it's also the story of William, a fictional character based on the real life of a young man who had been kept away from the world by his family for most of his childhood and early adult life. Claire's books are charming, beautiful prose, believable triumphs and disasters. She's written so many novels but her last two have really put her on the map. She came in earlier today to Times Towers and I began by asking her about the real person she wove this story around and how she found him. I came across this story in a local newspaper in an online archive when I was researching I think the 50s for small pleasures and I came across a story about this man called

Harry Tucker who'd been found in a house in Bristol living in a semi-feral existence with one of his aunts and you know, unknown to the neighbours and the authorities. He'd been either a prisoner or a recluse for about 20 years and was incredibly hairy. Sort of accounts varied in different papers as to how long his beard and hair was, but that was something they mentioned in his long nails. And he was taken to a local, what was then called a mental hospital, and he seemed to be responding well, it said in the press, and I wondered how this was going to play out. And then I

found a year later, there was an inquest into his death. He'd escaped from the place and fallen or jumped into a river. And I thought, what a miserable end to his story. And he had one brief year of, not exactly liberation, just removal from one closed institution to another. And I thought I wonder if I could just use this as a springboard and write a past that explained his situation and then gave him a more hopeful future. It is also a novel about psychiatry, isn't it? Because as you've mentioned, a lot of it is set in a mental hospital. It's very kind. I expected actually as a reader when I read the opening chapters that there might be a little bit more darkness actually in the setting of a mental hospital, because I think that's the story that we're told about those places that cruelty actually, and what we now know to be the wrong kind of treatments, might have been meted out to the patients.

Yeah, I mean, I think we all remember those large institutions on the outskirts of towns when we were growing up, which were often a kind of byword for sort of fear and prejudice. And our knowledge of them is informed by you know things like one flew over the cuckoo's nest that they were really places of kind of experimental torture almost and everybody was having lobotomies and insulin therapy where they were plunged into comas and you know revived by god-like doctors. But I just wanted to portray a more humane institution because I think a lot of those places in the 60s were becoming more progressive and more humane and they were

moving over to these therapies like art therapy and occupational therapy and cognitive behaviour therapy and things like that. And I just wanted to write a different story of an institution where it wasn't all dark and dangerous. I felt like we all knew those stories already. So I chose an art therapist as my heroine, who could then kind of connect with this hairy incomer and try and get to the bottom of what had made him the way he was. There is also a charismatic psychiatrist, isn't there,

with a certain amount of vanity in the kind of lead male role. I wonder how enjoyable he was to write. Oh yeah, it's always much more fun to write the sort of, you know, flawed characters than the good characters. I slightly struggle with writing goodness. It's hard to make it interesting. But the psychiatrist, Gil, in my book is a sort of progressive doctor in the sort of RD Lang mould. And it was great fun writing

him, you know, he's in a relationship with Helen, the art therapist, which I suppose it would nowadays be called a toxic relationship, but obviously in the 60s it would have merely been unsatisfactory. And Helen can't possibly meet her emotional needs, it's inappropriate on every way that he's her boss and he's married to one of her near relatives. So it's a doomed relationship, it can only go one way. And he's a sort of wonderfully confident, unshy creature. And he's brimming over with love and concern for his patients while his nearest and dearest suffer in the background. Yeah, he's a bit of a burk actually, sometimes isn't he Claire? But a highly, highly enjoyable

character to read about. You've mentioned your previous novel, Small Pleasures, which was a huge, huge, super sore away success. I know that for you, you describe the success of that book as being really life-changing for you and I read a description where you had said that you'd kind of under-achieved before that but I want to question that actually. Was it under-achievement or was it just that the stars of publishing didn't kind of align for you in the books that you had written before, Small Pleasures? Yes, I think it was very much that. I think there's an awful lot of luck in the publishing industry and I, you know, for some decades I didn't have a

huge amount of luck, enough luck to get published for sure, but not to take it to the level of getting the books into enough people's hands that might have enjoyed it. So I felt it was an into enough people's hands that might have enjoyed it. So I felt it was an absolute reversal of fortune and that I've now become a kind of spokesperson for late onset success, which is quite a small area of expertise, but I've pitched my tent on it. And what do you think the success that you have now would have done to you as a much younger writer? I think it would have been, you know, in almost every way bad news.

I feel it's really good to have success when it's almost too late to make a difference, you know, when you're nearly at retirement age anyway. My only regret is that it's come too late for my parents to be pleased and proud, you know. It's nice for your children, but your children aren't proud of you in the same way that your parents to be pleased and proud. You know, it's nice for your children, but your children aren't proud of you in the same way that your parents would be. So, but I think early success is, you know, is a very bad idea because it just sets up unrealistic expectations

and it means you're almost certain to fail. You've got far too long a career ahead to try and keep it, you know, keep the momentum going. I think it's much better to creep up slowly towards success. That's interesting the younger Claire when you left university you read English at Oxford what did she imagine her kind of career path was gonna be? Well I knew it was going to be something to do with books I mean I wanted to work in publishing if I couldn't get published and and having worked in publishing even for a very short time, I realised that the life of a writer was not going to be easy. Even being published was not going to mean that your

financial troubles were over and that you would have a life of sitting in cafes and scribbling. It wasn't going to be like that. I'd seen too many really good books disappear without trace. But I still knew that I wanted to be working with books in some capacity. So that was how I got started as a secretary. Do you think that if you were a young person now, you would be a tool swayed away from the degree that you chose to do by all of the pressures of employability, of the financial stuff you've got to take on to go to university. There is quite a lot being poked at the humanities degrees at the moment isn't there?

Yeah, I think it's a really, really disappointing state of affairs. It wouldn't have swayed me, I just wasn't good enough at anything else to get a degree in anything else, so it just wouldn't have been possible. But yeah, I just feel that the idea that everyone is just being groomed for the job market is really depressing and that's not what universities should be about at all. So, you know, I can't really advise young people to take on huge debt and say, oh, it's a great idea, I didn't have to do it because I was one of the sort of blessed generation of free education. So, yeah, it's just another one of those things about the way that society has turned on the young that, you know, enrages me almost daily. Do you worry as a writer about causing offense with anything that you write in your books? I mean your novels are not designed to be kind of

contentious and you're not saying that you're taking on every single you know aspect of the modern cultural world but now is there a kind of I don't know just something on your peripheral vision when you're writing that wasn't there before. Yes, only because I'm extremely conflict-averse and I'm a shy creature myself and I wouldn't really like to get into any kind of a spat about anything if I could avoid it, you know, I'm a complete coward. But I still feel that in theory writers shouldn't be, they should be free to write anything they want and that they should be free to give offence and people should be free to be offended and to say I'm offended and the writer says okay and that's as far as it

goes. But I mean I've sort of got around it by writing about the past so I'm writing through a lens of a different time so I'm not kind of caught up in tiptoeing around modern sensibilities. I'm trying to do things with a view to what was being talked about and acceptable in the period I'm writing about so I'm slightly removed from the sort of minefield. Do you think things will get better or worse? In general, in life? Yes, on this particular subject and then we can do the whole of life. Well, that's a good question. I think things just swing backwards and forwards. I think perhaps we're into an upswing of badness and things will swing back the other way.

I'd love to think that progress was always linear and things just got better and people got more enlightened and more tolerant and more understanding and more intelligent, but clearly that isn't how things happen. Things swing one way and then there's a violent reaction against them and they swing back. And I think we're not in a great place in all sorts of ways at the moment, but one hopes to live long enough to see change. That's so interesting, Claire, because actually one of the things that Jane and I have talked about on the podcast when we have recommended your book and other writers who we really

like is we do find ourselves saying, this is a fantastic book to escape from the modern world in, you know, it is a safe and interesting place where you will find some kind of fulfillment as a reader, because we're just aware of all of the pain and the horribleness that is going on in the world. And I wonder what that does to you as a writer with, I think, that kind of sensitivity, because there must be a temptation, surely, because the world outside is so dark, to almost wrap up a story with a slightly prettier bow. Does that feature, do you think?

I think it's something that I'm aware of and I try to resist. I'm very attracted to nostalgia. I feel the call of a mythical past when things were more innocent and the time sort of pre-technology when the world was purer and more innocent. But I think it's a kind of deadly drug nostalgia. It's not real. Things can't always have been better in the past because otherwise that past people would be looking back to a better past and we'd be back in the stone age people saying

it was great in the stone age, it was marvelous, things for women were so amazing. So it can't possibly be true that the past was better but it's a very seductive idea and I do take refuge in it but when I'm writing I try to always have that element of darkness. Even in Eden, there's the snake, and even in the roses, there's brambles. And I always put a little bit of that in, even when I'm writing a scene that seems very utopian. There's a scene of William going back to a wonderful childhood day, a sort of perfect day at the beach with a sort of perfect family, and it's his happy place that he's been trying to get back to his whole life and even there you know the fish and chips are wrapped up in newspaper with talk

of Europe on the brink of war and stuff so there's always a little bit of darkness you know in these scenes and I try to be aware of that because I know that I'm guilty of kind of indulging in nostalgia. Yeah, but I think that's what makes your book so successful, isn't it? That we know it's a safe place to go in a sense that the horrors that we're witnessing on a daily basis at the moment won't be replicated, but it's realistic writing. So it's not that kind of saccharine, you know, you need to actually suspend your entire system of logic in order to read this book. What are you working on now? Can you tell us or would that break some kind of a writer's...

Oh, no, I can easily tell you because I'm not working on anything. I mean, I'm just in that period where I've, you know, I finished a book and it's still in my head and I'm trying to evict it. A sort of no-fault eviction is taking place. But until I do, there isn't really space for anything new to move in. And I'm just waiting for that feeling of wanting to start again. I can't really chase ideas. I have to wait till they come and sort of wrestle me to the ground. Because I take so long writing a book, it's got to be something that really interests me for sort of three years. So I'm just waiting and

hoping that I will be kind of mugged by inspiration. Well I hope you're mugged too and that's not a sentence I've ever said to an interviewee before. It's really lovely to meet you Claire, thank you. Thank you. Claire Chambers and her latest novel Shy Creatures is out now. If you've never done a Claire Chambers book before I would start at the very beginning and work your way through. She is just an absolute master of her art so how lovely to meet her in person. Well I don't want to big her up too much but I will because I think she's great as well

and all her other novels are now I think they've just been reissued in very, very attractive looking paperbacks. So I've got one called A Dry Spell, or I think it's A Dry Spell, which is by my bed right now and it looks great and it sounds extremely funny. And I'm looking forward to reading that very soon. Excellent. We've got some real belter of authors' names coming up on the podcast because it is that kind of season of publishing.

And on Thursday we've got James Comey who used to be director of the FBI, he's turned his hand to writing spy novels and I hope there's quite a lot of truth in them actually because it's always fascinating to try and pull the curtains open on that world. And we've got so many other big names coming up, Ian Rankin is booked in isn't he, So that's just one little tip bit to throw at you. Will you be on Solids later for just a little soup for lunch? I've got a wrap rather than a sandwich. Have you? I've made it.

With a nice soft bread. And you'd be glad to know there's no way I can eat an apple today. Oh my gosh, this is heaven. The crunch will not be occurring. Okay. Well, I hope when the anaesthetic wears off you're not in any pain. Well, it's a little tiny niggle right now if I'm honest. I'm going to be brave.

Okay. Thanks everyone. Congratulations, you've staggered somehow to the end of another Off Air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do do it live, every day, Monday to Thursday, 2 till 4 on Times Radio. The jeopardy is off the scale and if you listen to this you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online on DAB or on the free Times Radio app. Off Air is produced by Eve Salisbury and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler.

Right, what are we doing? It's a trail for the podcast. Excellent. Giles Corran has no idea. She's decided to go out there and let Trump stitch himself up. So he goes, they're eating the cats, they're eating the dogs. And she goes, hehehehehe. Unvarnished, unapologetic. And mostly unusable.

Listen on the Times radio app. Or wherever you get your podcasts. ACAS powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend. Hi everybody, it's jungle Jim Jerome, and I'm super excited to tell you that Inside Curling is back with Canadian and world curling Hall of Famers Kevin Martin and Warren Hanson. I'm Kevin Martin and this curling season we will be bringing you our ever popular weekly show along with special coverage from the Canadian Championships, World Championships and of course the Grand Slam of Curling. I'm Warren Hanson. Our weekly show will bring you five popular segments. What's happening around the curling world, hot rock topics, mailbag, what are you hearing and in the house.

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