Off Air... with Jane and Fi - You know me, I like a chunk (with Laura Whitmore)

Episode Date: August 8, 2023

Jane and Fi talk family bathroom politics and delve into more taxidermy horrors. They also compare two on screen sensations: Barbie, and Greg Wallace's miracle meat. They're joined by Laura Whitmore, broadcaster and former host of Love Island, to talk about her new documentary mini series. It tackles cyber stalking, the incel movement, and rough sex. Follow us on Instagram! @janeandfi If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail].  Assistant Producer: Megan McElroy Times Radio Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

VoiceOver describes what's happening on your iPhone screen. VoiceOver on. Settings. So you can navigate it just by listening. Books. Contacts. Calendar. Double tap to open. Breakfast with Anna from 10 to 11. And get on with your day. Accessibility. There's more to iPhone. So we have spent such a lot of today referring on air to all of the funny stuff that we've talked about off air on the programme. And then we've just basically had to restart the podcast because we can't put that bit in either.

OK, but it's a shame that we can't. We're being very secret squirrel. Well, I mean... Is that a stuffed squirrel? Secret stuffed squirrel. It's come back to me that there was... And I woke up in the middle of the night the other night thinking about this. At Crosby Library, Crosby's the north Liverpool suburb where I grew up,

they also had like a taxidermy department. I'm sure I'm not imagining this, where on the top floor of the library there were lots of owls and birds. And I don't think they can't be there now, but I definitely used to go up there to have a look occasionally. So how long does your average bit of taxidermy last? Well, presumably they are, I mean, post-apocalypse, there'll still be stuffed animals around, won't there? I think my sister had a Victorian raven for a while.

Did she? Okay. Which had obviously hung around since Victorian times. I'll tell you what else has survived. That's the knickerbocker glory. And I owe thanks to Susan, who says,

just to allay your fears about the demise of the knickerbocker glory I've attached a photo of me enjoying one last summer after cycling to Burnham on Sea. I think I went there recently very nice. This one was called the Cadbury as they did loads of different sorts it was amazing though I think

I'm still buzzing from the sugar hit changing the subject completely and regarding creepy taxidermy I've inherited my parents' 50-year-old stuffed ostrich foot ashtray. We lived in Africa and it was a different time, she says. Well, I think we can all agree on that. I can't put it out for recycling, says Susan, or give it to a charity shop. So it sits in my shed and I use it to put my coffee cup on. Can I have a look?

It's on the back isn't it? Oh my god it's absolutely vile. I'm sorry it's just horrendous but I take Susan's point. What could she do with that? What can she do with it? Oh I see so I was imagining oh I don't know what I was imagining actually but that's

so it's got the whole ostrich foot and then a little bit of its paunch. And then there's an ashtray on top of that. You're absolutely right. No charity shop should have to face that. Nobody should have to face that, actually. Good Lord. So very happy to see your image of the Knickerbocker glory, Susan. But we don't want to see that stuffed ostrich foot ashtray ever again she says i'll leave it to my grown-up children to put in a bin bag when i'm gone maybe i'll pay for them both to have a knickerbocker glory by

way of compensation for the trauma okay yeah so they don't have to have it no because that's a difficult thing isn't it when you're left something that is just really, really horrendous or completely inappropriate and out of time. But obviously you're left with the sense of guilt if you then chuck it out. Loads of people must have that. I mean, I have to be honest, some of the stuff that, you know, little bits and pieces that have come my way,

I would really happily not have in my house, Jane, but I can't throw them out because I think, well, they've got some sentimental value from the person who left them to me, not for me. I'm happy to remember, you know, better times. Yes, I've got to be honest, there is a table that my mum has in her hall that was her mother's

that I've always imagined would be mine. But I mean... You don't want it I do I need to just check in with her that she isn't going to leave it to anyone oh I see well no you see that's good no that's good so I'm talking about the stuff that you get left I do want this that you don't want and there's also a vase I really want should I tell her now just to make it clear we are such different people. Can I just say hello to Nikki, who's attached some taxidermy. The first one is of a camel's head. The second one, no idea. But they came from a museum in Kuwait

where her husband was on a nine-month course at the Military Academy in Kuwait a couple of years ago. And she went out to stay with them to explore the city and found these delights in the Bayat al-Othman Museum. So bad, they're good. I don't know whether they are, Nicky. But we'll put those up on the Insta. It's Jane and Fi, along with some of the other ones that we've received too.

And actually, there just are quite a lot of very funny stories about taxidermy. There's this one which comes in from Carol who says, the story I'd like to share is when I was driving our son and daughter, then probably around five, no, sorry, about seven and four years old, and I was entertained from the back seats by a long explanation our son was giving our amazed daughter about taxidermy. Presumably the information was from a dawling kinderly encyclopedia do you remember that i do yes anyway it was all very

detailed and involved lots of animals and finally a cat to which after a short silence our daughter replied but how did he hold the cat still while he stuffed it needless to say the initial and fundamental part of the lecture had been missed. Fun times, and thanks for the rekindling of memories. Okay. Presumably, when an animal is subjected to taxidermy, you have to take everything out, but maintain the outer layer intact yes or do you sew it up again you know obviously a very highly skilled way well i think that's the secret to it but it's a good point

whether you keep the skeleton what what exactly are you taking out it's a good point i didn't i wish i could say i'd been clever enough to think about that, but I hadn't. Do you know what we absolutely don't need is a blow-by-blow account of taxidermy, the process. But if anybody else is intrigued as to how it happens, why don't you go look it up on your own? Yes, I think perhaps that's not a bad idea. Can we just bring in Confused Mel? Of course we can. Hello, Confused Mel. I'm trying to find where I can find your podcast for your book club for the first book, she says. She sounds like one of us, frankly.

Well, where can Mel go to find the podcast for our first book club podcast? Well, if you go into our podcast feed on the Times app, then it'll be the Friday before last. So if you're listening to this, Melanie, you should be able to find it. Yeah, so wherever you found this, if you just go back to last Friday. But I'll get the proper date for you uh while jane reads another email well actually back with you in a sec yeah i on the subject of animals i didn't get the chance to mention this um during the times radio show today but um we often talk about the french and obviously we um enjoyed well fee

enjoyed um the french novel we discussed in our first book club. But this is a story from the Times today. French celebrities ride to the rescue of horses destined for dinner plates. And it's just about the French habit of eating horse meat. But it is something that's falling out of fashion in France. A recent study found that 7% of French households still eat horse meat, study found that 7% of French households still eat horse meat, but overall consumption has fallen by 15% compared with 2021. The country counted 1,035 horse meat butchers in 2005, but just 307 in 2018. Now, it is interesting, isn't it, that we, as as a country we don't eat horse meat. I think people did eat horse meat during World War II possibly. People can tell me if I'm wrong. I think they

probably did in the UK. We certainly don't do it routinely now. Not knowingly. No it would be highly unusual. It's just another example of cultural difference, which I'm not criticising anybody, I'm just interested in why that might be. Anyway, it's falling out of fashion, even in France. And have you seen the email about, we were talking yesterday about guns in America? Have you seen the email about Texas? Yeah, I really like that one. Can I just do Mel a favour? Was it Mel who wanted to know? Yes. Okay, so the book club episode was on the 28th of July. You'll find it sandwiched between one called Capers in the Basement and another one called It's Been Ages Since I Measured Mine. Because we don't go in for numbers, do we? So I'm just trying to point you in the right direction. 28th of July is the one that you want. Book Club, Freshwater for Flowers.

Yes, OK. So, Fi yesterday interviewed a Texan... Was he a Texan businessman? He was based in Kansas and he was called Tom Holland and he was president of a firearms manufacturing company. OK, and it was a sort of cultural... Well, we just didn't understand where he was coming from. No.

He seemed a perfectly pleasant man, which actually made it even more chilling, to be perfectly honest. He had come up with a weapon that could be personalised to the extent that it could essentially only be used by its legal owner. Is that correct? Yeah, so it's called a user-authenticated gun, where the user has to be wearing a ring, and then the ring transmits a kind of unlocked thing to the gun and then you can shoot it if you're wearing the ring. Well I'm very grateful to Katrina who's emailed to say I am so anti-guns I used to remove the tiny weapons from my kids Lego and Playmobil sets but after years working for the British branch of a Texan company I know

many lovely family orientated colleagues who believe passionately in the Second Amendment and see it as an important rite of passage to teach their children about gun safety. During one of my visits to our Texan headquarters, a colleague keen to convince a sceptical European of the joys of gun ownership invited the team to his home. He and his wife sent the kids out to play and laid out their household firearms collection in size order on the lounge carpet. The 20 or so items ranged from a small white handgun, his wedding gift to his wife, to fairly major hunting rifles and after debating the merits of each, everyone chose a couple

of them to try at the local shooting range. I mean, I'm really baffled by this. I had pictured something more high security, says Katrina, but the range felt a bit like a bowling alley, except the groups chatting, laughing and competing for the higher score were holding guns. If anyone got too animated and started waving a gun around in the direction of other people, as a group of teenagers in the adjacent lane kept doing, they were asked over the tannoy to calm down, but otherwise we were left to it. I was surprised by how much I viscerally hated holding and firing even the smallest gun.

And despite swapping my person-shaped target for a more neutral dartboard circle, I still found the whole thing stressful and disturbing. I mean, I can't... There's somebody who's actually been there and has experienced, as she says, hospitality from a apparently very decent and caring family but it's just weird isn't it well it is and uh traveling around america uh this was a while back so i don't know whether the company still exists there was a chain of restaurants called burgers

and bullets and the deal that you had was that you could go and uh shoot a gun at a firing range and then eat your burger afterwards and the whole thing is just so wrapped up uh in a mindset about enjoyment that i'm just never going to be able to fathom because it's absolutely tied in those two things are tied in together i'm going to eat my meat i'm going to fire my gun uh you know welcome to our chain of restaurants i just love this paragraph as well she says under texan state law companies can stop employees or customers from bringing their guns inside but they cannot prevent anyone from leaving a gun in their car all day even in a workplace car park as long as the car is locked. This led to the surreal situation until our HR department finally realised it wasn't relevant globally, where in order to

pass the mandatory annual health and safety refresher, employees from Dublin to Tokyo had to dutifully promise to keep our handguns locked in our glove compartments while we were at work. It's an open secret, though, that many in the Texas office believe their right to bear arms overrides a company's right to ban them indoors. And I'm always aware when I'm over there that I'm working in close proximity to a substantial number of guns concealed in holsters. So that's the thing, isn't it, that in so many parts of America, well, especially in the open carry states,

you know, it's not something that you can avoid. You would know who's carrying a gun. You would be very well aware of how big that gun was. And it's odd because I have to say that, you know, just spending time in Manhattan, when I lived there there for one, I never saw a gun I never heard I didn't hear anyone firing a gun. I didn't feel that I

was very close to guns at all but it's not all one country, that big America No, no it isn't. I mean my ignorance about the country, every time I hear something about America I realise how little I know about it You're never going to go, are you? Again.

I know you've been. Probably not. No, I don't think you will, will you? Well, no. Don't you find... Sometimes I realise that there's now so little of the world that I will ever visit. I'm not sure I ever thought that I would,

but I know now I'm never going to go to Australia. It just feels too far away and I'm never going to go to South America for the same reason and I'm not sure that I'll be going to the States again either. Can we just talk about somebody who had an incident with her in-laws on holiday? Does it end well or badly? Well it ends interestingly and they laugh about it now and we're still getting these by the way and do if you're on holiday with your family now and you've snuck out to listen to this or perhaps you're listening last thing at night having spent a day in the passive-aggressive company with people to whom you are sort of related you know like dna adjacent um you might

well be able to relate to this just over 20 years years ago, we took our then 10-month-old baby on a mini break with in-laws, my in-laws says. We won't mention her name. A lovely but tiny cottage on the Dorset Coast, just the one bathroom. That is the real danger. That's when a klaxon goes off. It's that awful feeling at Christmas

in a house with just the one bathroom where somebody, not always a man, though often, emerges from the bathroom, shuts the door and says that ominous sentence. Let's leave it for a while. Yeah, exactly. Anyway, our correspondent says, one morning, I just couldn't get into the bathroom. My mother-in-law was in there for an age and I was desperate. Because I was desperate, I had no choice but to make my deposit in a rather

undignified manner into a muslin square in our bedroom and I then hastily deposited the whole thing in a nappy sack. I tried to sneak out the nappy sack to the outside bin only to be met with a chorus of goodness me is that smell from my adorable little grandson? My mother-in-law took her grandson out of my arms whilst I let him take all the blame for the dense fog that hung in the air on the landing outside the bedroom. I managed to pop the nappy sack into the outside bin and I didn't mention anything for the rest of the holiday. I did tell my husband on the drive home and we laughed our heads off and never looked at a muslin square in quite the same way again. Thank you to our correspondent for that rather revolting story. But I do love the idea of you standing there with all

your dignity, holding a nappy sack with the muslin square and your own deposit I often thought the smell of the scented nappy sacks was worse than the bloody content there is no other scent known to mankind as repulsive as that you're right thank you for that, if you can beat that and I'm not certain anybody will be able to

but I do, I always think it's if you can occupy a property with more than one bathroom when you have a lot of people staying, it's definitely the preferred option. And I would say definitely when you've got kids, because also there's that very difficult thing of, you know, if a kid has had a little bit of an accident

on the bathroom floor, then they're not your kids. As the grown-up, do you just automatically clear it up or do you go and get the other parent and say, your child's just done that? I've never known what to do. I've always done the latter, but I suspect they're looking... Some of my friends' eyes have suggested I should have done the former. Have you ever tried those poo pellet things?

You know the things that you're meant to put in after you've had a poo? They're actually called poo pellets. Are they? And they freshen up the whole area. I haven't. No. But I might order some. I think I've never got...

Are they environmentally friendly, though? I've got your Christmas present now. She will as well. Yeah, no, I'm sure you can find some. Okay. Can I just chuck out that question about not travelling to our lovely antipodean audience and our audience all over the world i don't mean it i don't think either of us mean it offensively i think i'm partly bearing in mind um you know do i does the climate need me to fly to somewhere like i think unlikely america i i just don't feel

any more that and i desperately wanted to go I remember longing to go and loving my first couple of trips there um but I don't know I'm not sure it calls me at the moment no so I'd be interested to know what our international listeners especially the ones in midlife feel about long haul travel from their necks of the woods because maybe you look at europe now and you just think well maybe you look at this country and you just think what's the point in going there don't say anything come on rally rally come on everybody in britain we can do it this one comes to rebecca who says uh thank you for all the chat that keeps me company on my work commutes from hampshire medst near Oldsford, which female.

Well, I do know I've got a lovely aunt who lives in Medstead and you're going from Hampshire to London. Not every day, surely. Well, I think so. And while I do the never ending weeding that the summer rain has necessitated this year. Rebecca says, I write to you in defence of the Jack Russell feet. You describe them as ankle biters which I can't completely disagree with

and yes they are very vocal when people and dogs enter their orbit but there's so much more my Jack Russell Barbara oh

I know is joy personified ball obsessed has two speeds flat out or flat out is endlessly fascinated with squirrels

and pigeons and is velvet to the touch barbara loves a cuddle and is the best companion through life photograph of barbara attached for information her visual quirks include a googly eye and stumpy teeth from all the ball chasing but we couldn't love her more and the terrible thing is rebecca we've had so many pictures of taxidermy when i was going through all of the emails earlier on today I thought Barbara was at the top of the pile as a fantastic example of taxidermy that's gone very well I think she looks lovely Barbara is living and breathing Barbara

great great choice of a name and in the interest of balance Rebecca tells us that she's also got a dashing calledund called Margot. Margot and Barbara. Well, that's great. But I think the name Margot is making a little bit of a comeback, isn't it? Huge comeback. Well, we've got a colleague, haven't we? Yeah, it's quite the fashion to call baby girls Margot. And do you think that's after Margot Robbie?

Oh, I suppose it must be. Yes. I was at the cinema only last night, in fact. Oh, you'd better do your quick Barbie round-up thing. Well, I will. I mean, I should say that the cinema was nicely busy, which I do think is lovely, because I do love going to... There's something about the collective experience

which is unbeatable for me. And there was also a bit of an incident, which everybody in the cinema loves, because some people had sneaked in and they hadn't got a ticket and security came in and threw them out and heads were turned and people going, oh, I mean, you just can't beat a thing like that. It's just like the minor kerfuffle. But had they tried to sit in someone's pre-booked seats?

No, no, they just hadn't. They just wandered in there. They just wandered in. I mean, I think it's not uncommon in a multiplex to try your hand at getting into a number of different films. Well, I think the kiddies do that, don't they? I can't believe it. They buy something that's got a 15 and then they sneak in.

They were younger people. I don't know why I've done that accent. No, I don't know either. And as you know, I'm no critic of the arts, but I would say that I only gave Barbie 7 out of 10. My daughter said it was hilarious and she certainly did laugh more than me. I did laugh.

I thought it was a little bit flabby and I thought if it had been 90 minutes, I'd have enjoyed it much, much more. Sorry. I think it was only an hour 34. That felt longer. So it was 94 minutes. So you're saying that it would have been four minutes less. I'm not sure. I think it was longer than that.

I definitely felt it was really padded. Okay. A bit with the older lady and stuff on there. Well, I'm sorry that you didn't enjoy all of it because I really loved every moment of it. Well, listen, I mean, Greta Gerwig directed Little Women with Timothee Chalamet, which is by some margin one of my favourite

films of the last. You see I didn't really like that. Oh you didn't like that? You said I love that. I love that film. That's our kind of place of safety in our house to watch Little Women. And did you see the trailer for Wonka? No. Oh yeah well that was on with Barbie last night. I love trails.

Didn't see the ads because we had to go. So Wonka as in Willy. Willy wonka yeah so who's doing that timotay chalamet is oh do you not like him no not really actually but i you know me i like a chunk well i i know he does look as though not even a stiff breeze would blow him over um but i mean he wouldn't survive the english summer i'll tell you that much. But I've got a bit of a soft spot for him. His hair always looks like it might need a wash. There's something about that that for some reason I find strangely appealing. Really? Oh, Lordy.

You are just one of those things. Yeah. I was going to say that, you know, I don't mind a bald man and I've said it like a chunk and that leads us very nicely into Greg Wallace. We've just got to just do one sentence on Greg Wallace's Miracle Meat because we were promising people all the way through the podcast last week. What did you like about it?

I think Greg Wallace, his homage to Jonathan Swift is something that everybody should watch. I really do. You better explain the reference for our international audience. To be honest, this Miracle Meat documentary, which Channel 4 made, features my televisual bete noire

and indeed fees as well, Greg Wallace, who's a man who has, to me, almost no redeeming features. I don't know if you can think of any. He often is seen mooching around Britain's workplaces in a hairnet, gurning and asking daft questions and saying silly things. But he's made a fortune. So, I mean, who's having the last laugh? Greg Wallace, I would imagine.

And he's made this mockumentary for Channel 4 in the UK about a factory that uses human flesh to create an economical and tasty meat product. And it only dawned on me about halfway through that it reminded me of something and it was something that was vaguely referenced when I was at university, which is Jonathan Swift's Modest Proposal, which was a satirical essay about a horrendous potential solution to solve the potato famine which some people took as rather a good idea when he'd obviously not intended it to be anything other than the most

biting satire right which is basically uh cannibalism yes yeah yeah and um but it's a measure of just how despicable some people were at the time that they thought he was on to something. Anyway, so this documentary, mockumentary, did take some people by surprise and they honestly thought it was real. And there were letters, notably I think to the Daily Mail, perhaps not read by britain's most informed folk let's be honest uh who were horrified by greg wallace's participation

in this show because they thought it might be real i just thought it was rubbish he just went beyond gurn so early you could just tell it wasn't true I would just like to say hello to Mary you don't have a different deadlock the deadlock that you've been watching is indeed as you say a hilarious extremely crude police parody set in Tasmania thank you for the lovely pictures

of you and your grandchildren and your daughter and it was very nice to hear from you okay and a quick mention as well to Iris, to whom we wished a happy birthday yesterday. She just wanted to mention the longest ever match at Wimbledon. It lasted 11 hours and five minutes, spread over three days, and the score in the final set, can you believe this, was 70-68.

Wow. Thank you for that, Iris. And continue having a wonderful birthday, which has gone on for some time now. And we did say we'd do this. So I want to mention this email briefly before we get to our guest, who is Laura Whitmore today. We asked about what it was like to be in a lesbian relationship with an age gap when you get to around the time of the menopause. And our correspondent says my partner is 15 years older than me and has been having menopausal symptoms for 11 years hasn't been fun for her and the duvet is on and off our bed many times a night i believe my own menopause will start in possibly seven years and if one is to follow the pattern of my partner's ever suffering elderly mother who claims still to have the occasional sweat, we may both have

that symptom at the same time in the future. My partner's teenagers live with us full-time and lovely as they are, puberty has collided somewhat with her menopause. We both have demanding careers that require being in public under spotlights, real not figurativeative and my partner can report seeing a pool of hot flush related sweat on the floor surrounding her on many an occasion at the end of a stressful night's work I am dreading the arrival of this symptom in my own working life which has enough jeopardy as it is I tell you what there are some questions to ask about what it is they're both doing perhaps something in the thespian world?

Yes, definitely in the performative area but I suppose we should say it doesn't, you know, everyone's symptoms are different It might not be that bad Yes, and I hope it isn't but it's such a good point, I think, especially because so many people have children

a little bit later in life, that collision of menopause and puberty, but also early onset menopause, perimenopause as well, just after you've had your kids. So toddlers and perimenopause, I think, is a really common flashpoint, isn't it? flashpoint isn't it you know if you have a i mean i had my my daughter when i was 39 and i was definitely uh perry more perry menopausal by my early 40s do you think you were oh yes very much so because i think i hit all of mine quite early because i came through it all quite early because i'm five years younger than you and probably sailed out of it at the same time as you. Oh. It's not competition. I think I'm on choppy water

still myself. Do you? That's interesting. Anyway, let's get to Laura Whitmore. Laura Whitmore is, I really enjoyed meeting her actually. I'd never met her before. I've heard a lot of her work. I used to listen to her on Five Live where she did the weekend show for a while and I think in this country

she is definitely best known for hosting a couple of series of Love Island. But she's done a lot in the entertainment thing. I was going to say, she's possibly a more serious individual than some people might have given her credit for. Yeah, because she's done the I'm a Celebrity, Get Me Out of Here, Back Room kind of shows and all

of that. But she studied journalism at Dublin City University. And she has made a mini series of documentaries about some of the really dark stuff of our times. So there are three programmes, one is about rough sex, one is about cyber stalking and one is about the incel movement. We started by asking her if she felt a little sense of having to justify her involvement in the documentaries because most people know her in the entertainment sphere. Yeah, and I think when you work on entertainment shows, and I love entertainment shows, I like watching a broad range of shows,

hence why I've worked on a large amount. But you don't necessarily have the space or capacity, ability or permission to kind of go as deep as you'd like to in some topics and you get to do a lot of like five minute quick interviews and these topics which you mentioned there are are something which I feel are very relevant now particularly to maybe the audiences that I've had over the years and I wanted to maybe get back to to where I started off in a newsroom and ask those questions in a space that allowed her and you are an associate producer on this series too so it's not as if you have just come along and you know put on the makeup and ask the

questions and I know it was important to you to have an all-female crew as well did you manage that in the end yeah as much as possible I also felt there was an irony there particularly with incels when I went to I traveled the UK and over to America um and other locations where I interviewed uh men who call themselves incels involuntary celibate men who basically and this is how they define themselves on blogs hate women so I felt like there was something there of a fact of having an all-female crew in those rooms was important because for my own personal power, but also just to see what the reaction was. So that was, it was intentional, but also they were the best people for the job too. I think what the three documentaries do as a whole is make you realise how vulnerable women still are.

Would you agree? three documentaries do as a whole is make you realize how vulnerable women still are would you agree yeah definitely and and something that i got out of a tour how vulnerable men can be as well a lot of men who i found particularly on the incel one but as well in cyber stalking um and i'm not condoning any of the views um because i found it very hard to sit through a lot of those interviews but a lot of lonely men who are finding this community online and being radicalized by a small group of people. And this toxic masculinity, it starts from a young age. It's about how we talk about each other, how men talk about women, how women talk about women. And it's much bigger than just, I feel, entertainment shows I worked on in the past,

I get asked that question about toxic masculinity in quite a throwaway manner. And I'd have about 20 seconds to answer it. And I couldn't. So I wanted to go further into it. So yes, women are vulnerable and men are vulnerable. And it's, let's talk about this. And for me, it was very important to talk to people I didn't agree with which is hard yes of course of course and you're absolutely right and you know I'm really glad you've used the term radicalization

because I think in this country not enough is known about the incel movement or the damage that's being done by people who want to distort the minds of young men. They're not bad young men in the first place, but as you say, they are men who feel that they don't have anywhere to go on the surface. So what's happening in these dark web chat rooms, I mean, it is horrendous. Can you give us a flavour of that? Yeah, well, I went deep within these blogs

and looked through them. And you kind of need your own lexicon to kind of go through it there's a different language between stacy's and chad's and how they talk about different people so stacy is a stereotypical beautiful woman a chad almost like a ken doll and once you kind of get through that that you can see the language used and just tell everybody what the other term for a woman is i can can't remember it myself now, there are Stacey's and, is it Becky's? Oh, there's Becky's if you're, there's so many things that contradict each other

and that's why I couldn't get my head around because a lot of incels on these blogs are saying how women, you know, are very materialistic and, you know, everything comes down to the aesthetic. Well, how they speak about women is that. So Becky is meant to be like a plain girl and Stacey is like a beautiful girl. And also the hate towards each other, the use of suicide language and men being told they're not good enough. And that's why they will never find a woman. And there's two types of men.

There's the red pill and the black pill. I won't go too much into detail. It's all in the doc. But it's, you know, the difference really is hope or hopelessness. And the more I got into it, I had to get my head around it to kind of understand what this language was. But it's dark. People telling, men telling other men that they don't belong in this world anymore.

And, you know, blogs can be shut down, but then they're reopened again. And online isn't monitored it's not monitored the way it should be we don't understand it social media platforms don't understand what they've created and it's changing quicker than we can keep up with it and it's scary I it's scary I'm online and I don't but heart of me wants to stay off it you can't stay off it because it's everywhere it's everything online has spilled over into real life can we talk a bit about the cyber stalking episode as well which i found fascinating perhaps you can tell us a little bit about your own experience with being stalked yeah again stalking is a word that feels quite common and familiar we use it in such a blasé

way with i faced facebook stalk that person and we had this image of stalking back in the day of like a man in a bush and particularly if you're in a you know a public facing job that there may be some degree of that that's what I was told when I had a problem when I went looking for help that you just get used to it this is part of it which of course it's not and this isn't just about people in this industry this is everyone so a lot of victims I spoke to had been stalked by ex-partners and cyber stalked in particular and I'll get into that um by work colleagues and stalking isn't the way it used to be it's it's not an easy thing to detect and some of the common things that were happening particularly to one woman who I interviewed

anonymously was happening over the period of two years. So in isolation, it doesn't seem like a big thing. So for example, an ex-work colleague managed to get her passwords and was doing little things over a long time. So went into her Facebook, deleted her wedding pictures, got into her, I think, delivery or just eat app and ordered a hot and spicy pizza at 2am to her house. I've had ex-partners where they can control the temperature in the house because of all these smartphones and smart apps. I found that so frightening. But you can't go to the police and say,

my house is too hot at 2am. Do you know what I mean? It's really hard to pinpoint this. It's just the calculated nature of it, isn't it? It's so weird. And the time spent. Yeah. There was one case, wasn't there,

where the stalker had tried every single available social media platform and form of communication and been blocked, so had started to send money so that he could write something unpleasant in the reference box for that money. Yeah, you can't stop someone putting money into your bank account. So they were putting one penny into the bank account and then obviously you can write a little message.

And it can be something that is really hard to detect, but it could be a trigger word that you know it's that person. That would be so frightening. Yeah, that's really common. I ended up talking to the Cheshire Stalking Unit and they said that's one of the most common ways. You can't just block people the way you used to. And I feel like I don't want to like scare people,

but these are things that you kind of have to keep out a look for yourself because no one else can help you. And also, I think it's very telling to sometimes live in the detail because you're right, when you say stalking, you know, perhaps it's become something that we just kind of go, oh, yes, and I know what that story is going to be. But actually, we don't know what the individual stories are and the harm that's being done one of the things I was very struck by was the stalking unit because actually the amount of

work that experts have put into understanding the psychology of stalking is hugely important isn't it and being able to then identify who's likely to do this before it gets too far and why they do it and also to work with the stalker um there's you know it seems you know obviously the victim is number one but also work with the stalker because a lot of stalkers re-offend there was one woman who i interviewed um who's a bbc presenter who had a stalker who she managed to charge she got the evidence um we couldn't name him because he's actually currently going through another court case where he's been stalking someone else so the likelihood of re-offending um and so how do we stop that happening as well and also be as a stalker being able to identify you are stalking yes that was interesting wasn't

it yeah what they refused to acknowledge that that's what they would believe they're in a relationship with that person right or that they want it in some way and it's uh one of the things i learned was like you're better off not having any interaction whatsoever with them because they want some sort of reaction um and again this is just as anyone i couldn't believe how many people, this is just from within a workplace, within a neighbourhood. And it's most people who are able to get some sort of help have to compile the evidence themselves and bring it forward to the police.

So there does seem to be an enormous chain between a stalker and their victim through different technologies or social media platforms or whatever it is. Are you left thinking that actually there is just so much more that those companies could be doing? We use them to block, but actually they're witnesses to something, aren't they, as well?

Yeah, and a lot of these things we have in our home, I mean, myself included, to make your life better, to make your life easier. You know, the Alexa and the Hey Google and all these different things and I want to be able to turn the heating up in my house. Or another thing with Alexas, you know, you can have your Spotify account connected and ex-partners were playing songs in the house

that would trigger. Oh. You know, it's like a horror film. Actually, I don't want to give people ideas. Don't want to give people ideas. But also it's really important that you can recognise that if something like that is happening to you, you do have rights. Yeah.

You know, the law is there to protect you. But is there anything that the law can do to make those companies a little bit more helpful so that they could actually be pushing something back to the perpetrator to say, we know what you're doing? Well, I've been calling for this for a long time. I think anonymity online and privacy online, there's a level where I think anyone can set up an account and say what they like. And I think we, there's definitely something to say. And I don't know how they're going to do

that. But there's some way where we should be able to see, they shouldn't be faceless people. A lot of comments wouldn't be said if we could see who was saying it. And I think being able to give this information up to the police, as you mentioned, stalking unit are brilliant. They're in Cheshire. There's very few of them in this country. So when I had my experience in London, I think I was kind of laughed at.

They're like, what are we going to do for you? I think you're very lucky that the first call out that someone recognises it as stalking or harassment and know that the law is there to protect you. And yours was a case that you eventually didn't have to take to court, or you did? I just got on with it, which isn't the right way either. And that's another reason why I want to now,

at this stage of my life and career, talk about things which I've been told to not talk about in the past, to kind of just get on with it and suck it up, because we shouldn't have to do you ever put any kind of not blame that's too strong a word do you put anything on yourself that you've chosen to be on television to be very visible to be very out there and and actually if all of this danger might lurk there for you you would just be safer if you removed yourself from that definitely has crossed my mind and then I've talked to all these other women who aren't in my

profession who have had similar experiences so I don't think I don't think it's me or other people has to change I think those who are doing it but it's a dreadful conversation isn't it to have to have with yourself that you might not be allowed to have the career that you would like to have because the danger lurks out there for me for you the hardest thing is the people who haven't chosen it in my life i.e my family um particularly with certain shows that i've worked on that i'm very protective of my child because i can't she hasn't chosen to have me as a mother or being on television or my mother or my father in Ireland. You know, I don't, so they have to, people know who their daughter is at home,

particularly Ireland's a small country, and they haven't chosen it. So I find more protective over that going, oh, I've kind of invited this into their life. Or if I'm working on a big show and I accept that job, I know it's going to come with stuff that I can maybe take on, but maybe they can't. So that I find difficult.

Voice over describes what's happening on your iPhone screen. Voice over on settings. So you can navigate it just by listening. Books, contacts, calendar, double tap to open. Breakfast with Anna from 10 to 11 11 and get on with your day accessibility there's more to iphone we should say laura just congratulations on an absolutely superb stellar career in the entertainment business and over at five live and in many other capacities because so

far we've just dwelt on the top i'm actually quite fun i'll have you know i'm great fun on the quiet now i saw barbie last night and i've just remembered the bit because i've been a bit sort of you know okay it was good but it wasn't perhaps as good as i thought it might be anyway there's a bit isn't there in barbie back me up here where i think it's the young girl the daughter of the woman who's destroyed her barbie in the real world yeah who says uh that men hate women and women also hate women yeah and um there was a definite moment in the cinema last night when she said those because i think we all recognized it and i hate that inbuilt misogyny that if we're honest almost every woman in the world has

and we are so we're a part of all this aren't we and we've got to stop it definitely and that's one of the things I hope comes across in the episodes as well that we all have a duty of how we talk about each other

how we raise our children I think for women in most careers in most high-powered money-making careers it's very competitive and in the past there's only been a place for one woman or few women so you've kind of been put against each other even how the papers talk about women I started my career where I was like who wore it best yeah and I never really saw that for men it was like I was compared to by what I was wearing and it started off and it seems like such a frivolous manner but actually that's where it starts and it builds and builds

so how did you feel sometimes on Love Island which is a program that plays into some of the crevices of misogyny but also women on women betrayal women and women, bitching, everything. But also, well, for me as well, I think any television show, particularly a reality show, shouldn't be what we compare life to be. And it's not the responsibility of a reality show to raise us or raise our children or tell them what they should do. I do think it definitely brought up topics.

And I don't want to speak as a producer in that show. I came into that show in a very surreal situation literally trying to survive it um but also i watched reality television i watched barbie and i liked it oh i liked it i loved it i believe it's been quite a success no don't i really i really enjoyed it and i enjoyed the questions and i think i think maybe shows like reality shows, they bring up questions and they start a conversation and a narrative where maybe it goes, I don't agree with that, but that's great. Identify you don't agree with it and let's talk about it and why we don't.

And I also think that show is changing constantly over the last few years. But again, I don't or have never had a producing role in that show. So it only comes with so much that one can do I put it to you that you probably wouldn't want your daughter to take part would you?

I don't think she would I mean I know she's very young she's very yeah I don't think she would but would you want her to? I wouldn't want her to do anything that she doesn't want to do I think going on a show like that

I think personally I wouldn't do the show as a contestant which I've said before because I'm probably not that confident to be in a bikini all day. I'm definitely not that confident. I don't like the sun that much. You are. You know what I mean? You have a very pale skin. Do you know what I mean?

So I like look after the skin, gotta look after the skin. I'll be in the shade with my big hat. So, yeah, there are many ways. So I think it's a funny question because people will ask you that question to see what you say and what that means in the bigger picture. Well, I can say, I mean,

I've watched Love Island with my kids. There's no way I would have wanted either of them to take part in it. I just would have said, no, absolutely not. But did we sit there and watch it? Yes, we did. So, you know, again again we're all in this

aren't we yeah um while we were talking about misogyny and i don't mean to ask you this just because you're irish although you are irish and you have a connection to bray i'm from bray yeah my mom lives in bray right and that's of course where shenado connor's funeral is taking place today and yeah lots of people lying my mom is on the street she's there today yeah but you know misogyny played a part in the way Sinead was treated, didn't it? Completely. A huge impact. And also, it's that thing now where people are saying so many great things about Sinead,

and I just hope they said it to her when she was alive as well, is that thing we always tend to remember and say all these things, like actually say it to people when they're alive. And Sinead spoke up before a lot of people spoke up on a lot of issues. When it came to misogyny in the music industry, when it came to the Catholic church. And the backlash she got for speaking up. And then years later, then everything comes out.

But she spoke about that before anyone else. She went to a Magdalene institution. So she had firsthand experience of what it was like for a young girl then. But for me me as Laura growing up in Ireland in 90s Ireland she was everything because she was a rock star and she was doing things that other women weren't doing she was on the cover of Rolling Stones she had a voice she shaved her hair off she shaved her shaved her hair off and I was like yeah anyone could do

it not me weird shaped head but I yeah so. But I, yeah, so for me, I tried to think of, for me, I remember the good and I remember how outspoken she was. And if anything, it gives me a bit of a push go and she put her, it's hard because she didn't have an easy life because of that. Yeah, and she had a very conflicted relationship

with her own fame, didn't she? Yeah. She recognised really early on how corrosive it was going to be for her. And she did things her way. Yeah, but she needed it to keep going. Yeah. That's just the deal that you do

if you're making the music, isn't it? And it's that thing as well. And I've had it in my career, obviously to a lesser degree, but other people I know too, it's like, do you say something now or do you wait until you have the power to say something?

I'm in a situation now, 10 years, over 10 years in, where I feel much stronger than I did when I started out in the industry to speak out about things, because I probably just wouldn't have got another job. And make documentaries like these. What would you say to a young man who is listening to the three of us have this conversation,

who just thinks, you don't understand my world. I'm not saying this young man will become a cyber stalker or, you know, join the incel movement. But something starts, doesn't it? And it's usually for men, feeling detached from everything that we're talking about, that their voice isn't being heard. How do you draw someone like that in?

I'm still trying to work that out. I remember during lockdown, particularly when you could only be outside for like an hour in the day and when it was coming up to where the evenings were getting shorter and if like the sun would go down at four o'clock and I remember one day to my husband going,

oh, it's dark now. I can't go for a run and go outside. And he'd go for a run at midnight. No bother to him. And I think one day he turned to me and he went, I'm not curse now but that's you know that that's rubbish yeah that's rubbish for you but anyway off i go yeah i know and i don't think people recognize that enough no that women's lives are still a bit limited and even the you know i get home from a night out with my girlfriends we all text each other are you home safely you're home safely and he's like oh that's lovely that's

we don't do that. I'm like, because you don't have to probably the same way statistically that as a woman, it's almost ingrained. That's just how you behave. If you're walking home at night and a man's behind you, you cross over to the other side of the road. So maybe just an awareness in that way. And it's hard to be aware for something that doesn't affect you.

And I'd say, as a man, watch the docs. And it's not about tearing down men or tearing down women or it's just having a conversation and starting a conversation. Laura Whitmore, our guest this afternoon. And if you want to watch those documentaries, I would say the one on cyberstalking I found really, really interesting. They're available on ITVX. Yeah, very interesting programmes, actually, They really are. I should say tomorrow's guest is Liz O'Riordan, who is a surgeon who operates quite a lot

on women with breast cancer and has herself been through it. Indeed, she's just discovered that she has it again. So Liz O'Riordan is a very interesting guest tomorrow. She'll talk about what it's like as a woman surgeon. I mean, it's still relatively rare and it's not easy to make it as a surgeon. It can be a slightly challenging world. I think that might be the understatement of the year. So a lot to discuss with Liz tomorrow. And I appreciate that perhaps some of you will have

your own breast cancer experiences. So that is tomorrow on the live show and indeed with us here on Off Air. And that's it from us for tonight. We've gone very professional there, haven't we? Very good evening. Quite slick. Ish. You did it. Elite listener status for you for getting through another half hour or so

of our whimsical ramblings. Otherwise known as the hugely successful podcast Off Air with Jane Garvey and Fee Glover. We missed the modesty class. Our Times Radio producer is Rosie Cutler, the podcast executive producer. It's a man. It's Henry Tribe. Yeah, he's an executive. Now, if you want even more, and let's face it, who wouldn't, then stick Times Radio on at three o'clock Monday until Thursday every week. And you can hear our take on the big news stories of the day,

as well as a genuinely interesting mix of brilliant and entertaining guests on all sorts of subjects. Thank you for bearing withover on settings so you can navigate it just by listening books contacts calendar double tap to open breakfast with from 10 to 11 and get on with your day accessibility there's more to iphone