Off Air... with Jane and Fi - You'll remember my flatulence with fondness

Episode Date: August 21, 2025

Happy Thursday! Jane is kicking off about what she deems to be an inappropriate funeral song, whilst Fi expresses her biggest fear: eating jellyfish cereal in a lighthouse. Plus, Fi speaks to Professor Sophie Watson, Head of Sociology at The Open University, about the importance of water to our cities. You can listen to the playlist here: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/3qIjhtS9sprg864IXC96he?si=uOzz4UYZRc2nFOP8FV_1jg&pi=BGoacntaS_uki If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] Follow us on Instagram! @janeandfi Assistant Producer: Hannah Quinn Podcast Producer: Eve Salusbury Executive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Do you know, weirdly, and this is weird, I went to his 50th birthday party. This is pretty much. It must have been when I was married, and it must have, it was a blend of past. Say hello to Samantha. Hi there. Samantha built a SaaS platform that helps small businesses manage their workflow, but she needed a smarter way to reach decision makers. That's where ACAST came in.

They helped me produce a professional audio ad, which played to business owners and ops leads using their audience attributes targeting tools. Suddenly, my platform was showing up in the ears of the exact people I needed to reach. Now that's streamlined marketing, Samantha. What's your tip for scaling smart? Solve a real problem and make sure the right people hear about it. Promote your business with podcast ads on ACAST. Get started at go.acast.com slash advertise. What are you doing? Clearing my throat.

Right, welcome to... Could you not do that, please? No, sorry. It's very irritating. Welcome to Thursdays off air and who have we got as a guest because I think this is an interesting guest and something a bit different,

so just explain who she is. So Sophie Watson is a professor at the Open University and she contacted the podcast when we were talking about heat waves and cities and her specialism, one of her specialisms, is the role of water in a city, increasingly important as temperatures rise. So there's plenty of other things that we can talk about because she has also looked at how migration affects cities

and where incomers live and should live and how to best affect integration. So loads of really, really interesting stuff. And I just put it out there, and I know that you'll agree with me about this. We really love to be able to put on the daily radio, program and therefore the podcast, the kind of person who might not be on the circuit already. So as you can tell, you know, we will take a big name author, we will take somebody who's on television, will take politicians very regularly. But actually somebody like Sophie who comes

to us with a certain amount of expertise, we love to turn them into big guests, don't we? We do. And we do often honour the fact that we're not experts. on anything. So we do need... Always. Yeah. It turns out that I'm not an expert on the fence. Or I don't know. Let's address that issue. Okay, hang on. This is, this is, this is, this is, this could start a new war, couldn't it? While you're having a futile, I just want to mention a couple of serious emails about sodium valproate. Yeah. Uh, which was a conversation we had yesterday with the Sunday Times health editor, Sean Linton. And it is a subject we'll return to until everybody involved gets their compensation.

But this is from a listener who says, I wanted to write in with a different perspective on sodium valproate, although my heart goes out to anybody affected by its side effects. Your interview didn't mention the countless people whose lives it has affected positively. And you're right, this is from a listener called Jane. We do need to mention this. She says she was prescribed the drug

when she was diagnosed with epilepsy at the age of 12, 25 years ago. I was warned at the time I may not be able to stay on it. if I wanted children, and I remember thinking, well, I obviously don't want children. Of course, I was 12 at the time. I chose to come off it in 2023 when my husband and I decided to try for a baby. I lived in perpetual fear of seizures, and when our daughter was born last year, I had 11 seizures in two days and ended up back in hospital, this time in the high dependency unit. I was quickly put back on to Valparate and advised not to have any more children, a heartbreaking. reality I am still coming to terms with. Valproate allows me to live a seizure-free life

and I am very, very grateful it exists. Jane, thank you for that. And this from a listener who is going to be anonymous. I worked for one of the epilepsy charities in the UK in the early 90s as an information advisor. I went out giving talks as well as helping to write training packages. The information was there about sodium valproate and we were telling people about the known risks and advising women to go back to their consultants and GPs to be changed to another medication. I'm feeling quite sick that the risks were known, but apparently little was done. I too have epilepsy and was lucky enough to be on a different medication. Thank you for both those thoughtful emails, just very slightly different perspectives. And as Jane was really keen

to acknowledge, this drug has hugely assisted her. And congratulations, Jane, on the birth of your child and I'm sorry it does look as though you won't be able to have any more but fantastic you were able to have your daughter yes all of that it's jane and fee at times dot radio if you want to send us an email about anything that goes out on the on air program or that we're talking about here on the podcast i've very much gone into broadcast mode there haven't i yes it was i felt informed and reassured a little bit bored a little bit bored so there is there is a type of Intonation. Yeah, there is.

I thought I fully. You can hear, which goes something like this, which when I hear it on the radio, I immediately think, oh, let's see what's on Gritch's Tits. You're reading! That's what I think. Yeah. So look, apologies to Debbie.

Long-time listener, not first-time email. Dear both Cromer and Norwich, and nowhere near the fens, the fends are further north-west, think Wizz Beach, etc. I'm just going to give you an official view here. I'm not sure we place them near Cromer. Did we place them near Cromer? No, I mention Cromer.

You mentioned Cromer, okay. So we have looked it up, and never forget, a couple of years on the travel show here. Did you ever do Kroma? We didn't. That problem with the profligate BBC is you always went abroad from what I remember. What's wrong with a British seaside holiday? I think you'll find that people wanted us to go abroad. What they wanted to see on the televisions was Juliette Morris in Uzbekistan.

I see, yes. Or Simon Calder across. Do you know what we did do a tour? me and Sam Calder. So we used to make our films together and he would do the kind of camping version and I'd do the luxury pop-it version. Oh yeah, he was Mr. Economy.

He's still a very important travel journalist. He is. And he is, do you know what, he is so hard-working. If there's ever some kind of a travel story, there isn't an outlet you won't find Simon Calder. He is ubiquitous. But we did a rooftop tour once of St. Petersburg, which literally was it been set up by some enterprising guy

and you just went up the loft stairs in his apartment and up onto the roofs and we walked across rooftops and jumped over into different buildings on top of St Petersburg I've got some photographs of it I found the other day when I was sorting through a big box Well you're not wearing a little harness

There's just no health and safety at all It was crazy times And there was one time we took a helicopter over the Victoria Falls and the sound and no the cameraman it was a lovely bloke called Ray he said it's going to be much easier and better to film if we take the doors off the helicopter oh I think you've mentioned this and you're hung out of that you just sat yeah okay anyway look back in the fens yeah we seem to have really made a leap here we go this is official it's come from the the Wikipedia the Google the AI overview

the fens also known as the fendlands are a low-lying region in eastern England, primarily in the counties of Cambridgeshire, Lincolnshire, Norfolk and Suffolk, specifically located around the wash estuary stretching inland for 60 to 70 miles. So, Debbie, if you're from that part of the world, and you heard us scratching our heads and wondering whether maybe it was near Dunnjness, is that the same as Dunkirk, is it the same as Thorpe Nuss? We don't know on this podcast. I'm sorry if you felt so angry you had to write in.

that's it it's the final straw I'm contacting them were you ever offered points of view I think you would have been absolutely terrific on points of view so you just would have told people off and somebody wrote him with an opinion

that you didn't share on a television programme exactly that's the face you choose which reminds me here's my beef of the day now I was banned from mentioning in this on the radio program yesterday because it was one of those little bits of

trivia that had filled the tabloids yesterday and was therefore fertile ground for people on radio to mention. It had been on a lot. Yeah, it had. It's these top ten funeral songs that people in Britain choose for their funerals. And my big problem is with the wind beneath my wings by Bet Middler,

which comes in at number seven in the top ten of songs played at funerals in the UK. I think last year. Now, my issue with that is not Bet Midler, but the song itself is utterly inappropriate for a funeral. I'm trying to think of the lyrics. Did you ever know that you're my hearing?

Yeah, you're the wind beneath my wings. So it's sung from the perspective of an egomaniac who wants to thank the person who stayed in the shadows and helped them achieve their goals. But it's not, why is that appropriate at somebody's funeral? I don't really get it. Well, is it that harsh, a condemnation? Isn't it saying you've been fantastically supportive?

Well, who? Who has? Has the dead person been a support? Or is the dead person, the person who achieved, thanks to the sad Muppet sitting in the front row, gave up all their hopes and dreams? I just don't get it. But some people like being supportive, Jane. It's not necessary to give up all of your hopes and dreams.

Some people really enjoy that role. Absolutely, but why play this at a funeral? I don't understand what role it plays. Have people not listen to the words. That's what I don't understand. God, I tell you what. It really has annoying me. People, if you're going to play a song

and if you're not, listen to the words. Okay. Sir Digby Jones put it on his Desert Island discs, didn't he? That doesn't help. Well, you see, there you go. To dedicated to his wife. Do you know, weirdly, and this is weird, I went to his 50th birthday party.

This is pretty much. Please, can you tell us why you went to his first birthday party? Oh, that was an absolute blow-in. It must have been when I was married, and it must have... It was a Blenham Pants. In a tent, I mean, not in... Why, honour? I mean, and I sat next year, and he was absolutely lovely.

The then Secretary of State for Northern Ireland's bodyguard. I'm not saying we were... in social Siberia, but we weren't on the top table. Anyway, the fellow was lovely. The chat was lovely. It was really interesting. And was it 300 of his close personal friends? Yeah, I mean, it was more than that.

Like you? Yeah, no, it was more than that. Really? Yeah, I think so from memory, yeah. Anyway, very generous chap, it was a lovely do. Yes, I'm sure it was. And what did you buy him as a lovely generous birthday gift? Just my presents was all I provided.

Yes. I hope my information is right there. Well, and it was his birthday party. Well, I don't know what, I'm pretty certain it was. Okay, I'm surprised he's not older, actually. I'm amazed he's only 69. No, I just, sometimes, you know, these very important men who've done incredibly well for themselves,

they seem to be a generation above me, but it turns out they're not. No, they're not. I've got an apology here. This is to Emily. We're still discussing this blooming book all fours by the run to July, which I read and didn't like, and Fee hasn't read.

But, hey, that's never stopped us discussing. a topic in depth, and it won't in the future. I'm going to give it a read. Okay, you should, because Emily says, I loved it. And this is an interesting perspective, and again, I'm schooled here, so Emily, thank you. As a 45-year-old woman who is thigh-deep in perimenopause, with a mother, now with early-onset dementia, caused by domestic violence, I'm so sorry to hear about that, who never mentioned menopause to me, and with a GP who is belligerently dismissive, I lapped up every pain.

It was freeing and joyous and slightly ridiculous, but so telling of desire at this point in my life, and it struck every chord going. It made me feel alive after so many years of grief and dwindling passion, and then getting dry hair and putting on weight. Here was my validation that it wasn't all downhill from now on. I really don't want to redecorate a motel room. I don't have the energy, but I frequently stay in Premier Inns for work purposes, and yes, I can see the absolute joy

that the time and money and an attractive but very unobtainable interest might bring to me. There you go. Now that is a very, very different view of this book which increasingly I'm beginning to think I just didn't get. And that's my bad.

So Fiona, I'm going to task you with catching up and having a look. Should I bring in my copy? Yes, that would be very handy. In fairness, I got my copy from Jamal. Okay. Well, this is one. well-thumbed and I feel

No, I haven't marked the naughty pages. I feel bad. I've really grown up. I feel bad because I don't I'm never sure about the sharing book thing. So, but I will give it a read and also I'm a bit lost actually on what to read at the moment. Because it's so interesting that

people really can't agree on this book and this is a really passionate email from somebody who really absolutely loved it and she goes on to say, I was disappointed to hear that the listener who had emailed in and loved it, was described by Jane as hugely clever based on what she does for a living. So again, my apologies, she did seem to be somebody in a position of real authority.

And I'm sorry, but I'm just going to be honest, she was in the medical profession. I do admire people who've just got high up in the medical profession. I can't help it. I just do. Just as I admire teachers, people who sweep the streets and everybody else. So I'm not being snooty. It's just that sometimes you see what someone does. And frankly, neither of us can believe that they spend any part of their time.

day listening to this. So that's what I mean. Don't worry, darling. You can get up off the kneeler, Mark Mayor Culper now. I've got really done it, but back in the pew. I've got one of those special things that members of that Catholic sect thrash themselves with.

I'm going to go home with it today. We were also talking on the show yesterday. Hot news from Rome that the Pope's got his three flatmates. Well, he hasn't. They haven't moved in yet. To move in with. And do you know what? I just think good on him.

Apart from anything else, those you know those figures of elite pomp and circumstance they are vulnerable to loneliness aren't they because nobody's going to tell them actually what's what and everyone fawns and fannies around them and all that kind of stuff and there is a huge amount of obsequiousness within organised religion that I've never really understood myself certainly some of that has gone on at the Vatican over the years

so how fantastic and we were talking a bit about flatmates weren't we? And we've had a couple of lovely emails about that. And I do wish that there was a real turn in our attitudes towards housing and planning in older age that allow people to embrace that shared living. Because I think I'm right in saying that it's still quite difficult in this country to do shared ownerships and... Is it, if you just want to buy with a friend? And, you know, convert houses into lots of separate flats for older living and all that kind of stuff. I think there's a weird, I remember listening to a fantastic documentary

by Winifred Robinson on this. No, she's formidable. No, she is formidable and really good. And she was saying that there are just quite a lot of barriers to older people living together. And I think we're so wary, aren't we, of who's got power of attorney and who might be leaving this bit to their child

and all of that kind of stuff. And actually, it's the time of your life where you really need people around you who are going to be nice to you, who you've got shared interests with. And there's a big difference between, needing to be in sheltered housing and actually just wanting to share your time with somebody.

Yeah, well, I mean, do let us know if you if you are in later life, let's face it, around my age, let's say, all or older, you're living with a friend because it suits you both. Yes, or you're genuinely looking into or you're thinking about the possibility of it. You've empty nested or you've been single

all your life anyway and you just think yeah, I'd like to be sharing my 50s, 60s and 70s with lots of other like-minded people. This comes in and thank God for Pamela and also Pamela I love the name Pamela so Pamela or Barbara just bring it home ladies

now this one comes from Pamela Wade to I think might be joining us from Australia because she begins with it says good day ladies but it's obviously get eye ladies regarding the mention on the show today of people confusing Austria with Australia it really is a thing American tourists apparently ask Austrians so regularly about where they might see kangaroos that there's now merch which I saw on my

last visit there. And Pamela has sent us an extraordinary picture of coasters and glasses which have got the kangaroo symbol on them and it says no kangaroos in Austria and they're on sale in Austria. So a lot of people are pitching up. They've just missed out some quite important syllables and they found themselves in Vienna. Okay. Isn't that weird? Never been to Vienna. Have you been there? Yes, I've been to Vienna. Does it mean anything to you? Oh, yeah. So, God, that was such a song, wasn't it, Ultra Vox? Yeah, kept off number one by Joe Dolcey.

Yeah, there's a fun fact. If you've got a dinner party coming up over the weekend, you might want to shoehorn that one in. Well, I'll tell you what, we're not leaving this podcast without a plea for more stories. If Jane Garvey and the previous Mr. Garvey, known to some people as Adrian Charles, if they've filled out your birthday party do you get in touch I need to make sure that

I might just ask no I can't be but I'm sure it would why else would I be at Blenham Palace and why would I have made up the detail of the then Northern Ireland Secretary's bodyguard that's just it's too niche it is too niche isn't it that's got a lot going for it

I think we're on we're on very firm ground because you've not been nasty about No, I was a rather nice evening. Yes. It was a bit odd, but it was a very nice evening. But, I mean, I certainly am available to pad out birthday parties, particularly at Blenham Palace. It's like that, what's that service

fulfilling theatres that they have if they're trying to get a lively crowd. It's being heavily used now, isn't it? And there's quite a nasty kind of vindictive little streak of journalism, isn't there? That's keeping tabs on sales for shows. And at the moment, it's Nick Clegg who's getting it, isn't it? He's using professional

seat fillers. Do you know, on Saturday night and I'm really very much looking forward to it, I'm going to see that musical about the making of a 70s album. Oh, the stereophonics. Yeah, I'm really looking forward to that. Because I can't imagine what it's going to be like. I tell you what the tickets

though. I mean, they're not... How much? Well, I mean, I'll be honest. 130 quid. A hundred and thirty quid. For one ticket. One ticket. Wow. I know. I'm taking a child, but... Even so. Well, I say even so, obviously that's twice. Twice 130. She hasn't actually offered to pay. I'm sure she will. No, I know she won't. It's a lot of money, isn't it? I mean, I don't go to musicals very often. And that's why I don't go very often fee. So that's 260 quids. Yes, for one night. For one night. Yes. And then you've got your dinner and your transport, which is free.

But for most people, they're coming from outside London or traversing across London. So it's 300 quid. It's a colossal outlay for one evening. It'd be bloody good. Wow. I've earmarked Saturday to watch a couple of episodes of hostage on Netflix with a nice takeaway.

Starring Saran Jones in a diplomatic incident with the French. I'm looking forward to watching that, and I certainly will. Perhaps we can include that, our reviews of it, on next week's podcast. Well, I'll be very interested to hear what you think of the musical because I know a couple of people who've been to see it who don't really like musicals and they've said that it's fantastic. Oh, okay, good, good.

Because the music is just, it's not kind of, you know, would you like me to do my rendition? I want to live in a musical. Yes, I know, you've got a real thing about musicals. I don't mind that. But it's not that kind of music. Well, no, they're making an album, aren't they? High kicking cadences all over the place.

The producers is coming back to London, isn't it, as well? Mel Brooks. Have you seen that? I've never seen that. It is really good. I would recommend people take opportunities to do that because it just, you know, it takes the Mickey out of something which you don't think anyone should ever be able to take the Mickey out of, which is, you know, wartime, Germany, springtime for Hitler, all of that.

Oh, I should make a point to see me. But it does really, it just really makes you think. So I was quite heartened to see that that was. I thought it might be one of those things that got a bit cancelled. Do you know what I mean? well I think it's probably not a bad time to revisit that sort of satire to be honest Yeah

I'm sorry to talk to satire now As we often say You can't say anything Now look I've lost count of the number of times We've done this but we're doing it again Because people keep asking Can you please tell us about that book

A gentleman on your programme talked about It was about death And all the things you need to start talking about And thinking about before we all die Thank you from Nicky Right, Nicky. For the umpteathe time, it's The Later Years by Peter Thornton. And Nikki, I appreciate that things go in and out of your luggles

and you're not always focusing. Lord knows I'm not. Always. But it's such a useful book. And we honestly, we must get an email asking about it every couple of weeks. Yeah, we get more emails asking us to remind people what that was than any other book. Any other book we've ever discussed. So Peter, who's a lovely man, wasn't he?

I hope he understands what a... vital public service that book is well the funny thing was as well he kind of fell into writing it didn't he because he's a casey yeah who a friend of his who was widowed asked him for advice about what to do and just could they could he write a list of things that she was if i termed it right widow uh widowed i'm sorry about that it's a lady um could he write a list of things that she would need to do and the book kind of just fell out of that because uh he found that actually you needed to do more than a list. Yeah.

So lovely man, really lovely man. Yeah, he was. And also, let's just mention Steph, who says, I'm currently in exile from the Paradise Peninsula of the Whirl. I'm staying in a lighthouse. For lighthouses, give me the creeps. Oh.

Steph's enjoying herself. Do tell us more about it. Where is it? Is it odd to be in a lighthouse? You look, really. Oh, I don't know. I feel quite unwell, a lighthouse. It makes you feel unwell.

It's because they've got, so they've got round walls, don't like round walls, and all of those steps to go up. So you just think you're getting further and further away from being able to get back on the ground if you needed to. Okay. And then you're very close to just the sea. Okay, I mean, I thought I was mad taking issue

with the lyric of the wind beneath my wings. No, I haven't got that angry. You got weirdly angry about that. It may just be about farts Maybe some people do choose it As a kind of As I go behind the curtains As I creep behind the curtain

At down the crematorium You'll remember my flatulence with fondness As we all get down to bed middless Wind beneath my wings Right Back in the Lighthouse She joins us from the Lighthouse As a committed bookworm

I was delighted to find this bookshelf of holiday reading. Very eclectic, it is too. The photograph is quite dark. Apologies, yes, it is quite talk. I'm going to read the Jack Reacher novel as I've never read any of the series and so many people talk about them, including yourselves. I will also pick up where to ski and snowboard 2007.

As I feel, it may not be a popular choice and it might appreciate a trip off the shelf. Steph, thank you so much. There's something about that sentence that really touched me. I thought, that poor book, it's waiting there, completely unloved. No one's had a look at it since probably around 2008, realistically. And nobody ever will. And probably nobody ever will.

Steph's at least taking it off the shelf. Yeah. It's sad, isn't it? It's very sad. I mean, I know on the shelf is an expression for a reason, but, yeah, I don't know. I just find that really poignant. It's like sometimes when you're buying cereals and things like that in the supermarket, I don't always buy the one at the front.

I think I'll get by the one at the back. Give it a chance. But you're right to, aren't you? Because they always have a better sell-by date. Well, not always. Serial seems to last for years. I don't like cereal either. Don't ever take me for a romantic weekend to a lighthouse

with only cocoa pops for company. Right, final one from me comes in from Sharon, who says, hello, Jane and Fee. This was my husband's choice of jellyfish for dinner in San Francisco, China. town on a recent holiday. I'm not a very adventurous eater, but I tried it and have to say, it wasn't

bad if I pretended it was pasta. So yes, jellyfish is very edible. And the picture, I mean, it just does look exactly like some kind of slightly bendy tagliatelli. So good for you for trying it. I think I might pass

if that was ever put in front of me. I'm sorry, it looks disgusting. I'm, my offspring love ramen. and that's something I just do not get on with do you like it I find ramen a little bit

complicated to eat I don't know what cutlery and you appear to need chopsticks of fork and a slowly spoon and then you just drink it from the bowl anyway it's just a lot of extra going on

isn't it? It's when I really channel my grandparents and just think I just want a couple of spuds some gravy and some meat possibly some peas you know I just there's so

it's a deeply troubling structure construct, the ramen. And I don't like that thick, ropey, no. The noodley thing, okay. But I do find it very satisfying. And I like a kind of hot, sour broth. I like that very much. I just don't know how to go at it, really. I think we've established that your nightmare holiday

would be a lighthouse with ramen. And what else, don't you like? Jellyfish surprise. The fens. I do quite like the friends but they're melancholy, aren't they? Oh, they are. Yes, they are indeed.

You get the sense that things lurk. Well, the lovely crime writer who you like, doesn't she write about crime? Ellie Griffiths. Yes. Isn't she in that part of the world? She sort of is and it's all about the... The reason I love all of her books, actually,

is that it's all about history and pre-history and ancient England sort of started there and I think the original capital of England was in that part of the country I'll fight you for that I think... Oh, don't come up with Winchester Oh, I will fight you

No, I'll get my great sword out I know, it's been a while I've been Dickby Jones's marquee Right, following on from Fees couple of days on the Suffolk Coast To ease the pain of norovias On the holiday of doom The issues of swimming with dark board-sized

Jellyfish rose I think it's completely natural Isn't it? This is from FIP, short for Philippa. The conversation then moved on to whether or not you can eat jellyfish with the news being shared that some Asian countries like to dehydrate jellyfish and eat them. But I'd like to share with you what happens

when you do eat a cornish purple jellyfish. Not me, but my ever hungry, huge male and exceptionally greedy Labrador bear. Now, you're a dog lover and knowledgeable about dogs. What is it they say about Labrador? was perhaps not the sharpest. I think sometimes they can be incredibly dependable and incredibly affectionate.

But sometimes not the sharpest on the block. Well, Phipp says we'd happily arrived in Ports Catho. Don't know that at all, on the Roseland Peninsula. And after checking into our cottage, we went to the beach. Now, it was low tide, and the whole of the beach was available to explore. And if you're a dog, to gleefully run around. Well, humans can do that too. we perched on a rock enjoying the scenery bear scampered off far away from us and seemed to be enjoying eating something we didn't think much of it until a fellow friendly holiday maker shouted that he was eating the jellyfish that were liberally strewn all over the low tide beach we caught him up he was indeed gulping down jellyfish oh feed had fifteen he was swiftly and very firmly put on a short lead to

prevent his urgent need for further jellyfish. A little panicked, we googled what action should be taken when your dog eats 15 jellyfish. Did we need to find an emergency vet? Soon bear's lips started quivering. Then the saliva started dribbling. Google searches had revealed that vomiting was likely, but we didn't have to find a vet, so we headed off back to the cottage to avoid dealing with public vomiting. Halfway up the beach, he stumbled and fell over, but righted himself and continued the walk back on reaching the cottage he was most annoyed to be shut out and put in the back garden about half an hour later his jellyfish feast reappeared this is slightly bear more bearable than you might think he is called bear they'd been swallowed whole and had now changed to a pinkish

colour oh no i don't think i can read the next date please don't thankfully they were outside and easy to clear up when breathing through your mouth and not smelling oh phil rather than on the beautiful but very liquid intolerant seagrass carpets oh yeah they're hopeless aren't they those carpets useless with any kind of liquid bear has a stomach of steel he regulates ducks hole including the bill and large decaying fish he finds on our walks around the cotswold lakes but jellyfish so far seem to be the only thing to make our nine-year-old bear a little poorly i thought it might be useful to share for any fellow Labrador owners. Oh, God. So, I mean, he must have... I think I'm... No, thank you very much of it.

It's interesting. Some extraordinary enzymes going on in his stomach if he can actually digest a duck's bill. Yeah, I know, that face. Yeah, let's all make that face. Well, look, I'm just glad he was all right. Yes, he is all right. I would have thought that jellyfish could be

quite poisonous to dogs. They've got all kinds of strange things they can't. aren't eat. Raisins can kill a dog. Yeah, well, my nephew who was, eldest nephew, who was, I think he's around seven at the time, was stung by a jellyfish on Crosby Beach. And, you know, he was a very brave little boy.

He didn't normally ever. I mean, he just, he was in such agony. I had to drive him back and bring him back to my parents' house, and then we had to, thank God for Google, find out what did it. I know that they think mail urine helps, but I can't remember what we did. There is a, is it vinegar?

vinegar seems to be the solution to almost everything. I was going to say that male urine seems to be the solution to most things. Well, it wards off your foxes. It's not doing the trick yet. I know. Anyway, jellyfish, if you have been stung by one, I gather, you know, judging by his reaction,

it's absolutely excruciating. Gosh. Well, I rather hate to go into our guest on such a painful note. Maybe we should hold hands and sing something to try and jolly everybody along, or maybe we're going to have to rely on these very, very bright commercial messages coming your way in order to change gear into the guest. Recently, we were discussing how to live in cities as our climate changes.

Well, Professor Sophie Watson is a podcast listener. Many of our listeners are highly qualified, quality people. And when she emailed in about this and other things, we simply thought, well, let's book her and have a chat. She is currently Professor of Sociology at the Open University. has been the co-director of the ESRC Centre for Research into Sociocultural Change and she also holds professorships at Bristol University, the University of East London and the University of Sydney. Her work looks at urban policies, how they affect migration, regeneration and the environment.

And she's written a book about how water really matters to cities. And that's where we started our chat. Certainly the early cities were either built on ports or on rivers. latterly they've been built on different kinds of things but always water matters in terms of basic kind of infrastructure in terms of running industry for example you need water to cool things down and in actual fact I think water is going to become more important

with all the AI for example which uses huge amounts of water to power itself a lot of the digital world uses water but at the same time as that's true of course water's becoming more and more scarce and more problematic But certainly water has always been central to the way cities work. I'm fascinated by that point about technology and water because I don't think that the average Joe, and I'm very much the average Joe myself,

really understands that connection between every search that I do on my phone, every time I do an online shop, somewhere there is a server that needs water in order to cool it down to carry on work, That's the gist of it, isn't it? Yeah, I mean, that is the gist of it. And if you think about it, I mean, in industrial times, people needed water to run machines. I mean, obviously, wool and mills and so.

And most of the mills used water delivery to power their machinery. And so it's a different kind of use now, because water's for trying to cool, effectively trying to cool down systems. And that's a very serious consideration. And I agree with you, we don't know about it. Who's regulating that or thinking about that? Well, I'm not so sure people are thinking about it. I mean, those in charge, if you like, of AI, I wouldn't say that they're exactly socially conscious all the time.

I mean, I'm quite pessimistic about this kind of conundrum because I think the same time as everybody's getting more and more used to, you know, relying on AI, we're relying on digital information and so on, the world's running out of water. And, I mean, you know what the consequences of that are, obviously, in terms of migration. I mean, it has a huge impact on cities that way around because if people haven't water where they live, they migrate. So it's going to become increasingly a reason for why people move across the world.

And I'm very worried about that. I think water wars are probably the most likely form of war in the future, if not the immediate future. And just tell us a little bit more about what you mean by water wars. Well, simply, I mean, this is just conjecture, isn't it? But when I talk about water wars, what I mean is that migration is always fueled, by lack of something in a country.

I mean, obviously, migration that, you know, rich people do is a different matter. But if you're forced to migrate from somewhere, it's because you can't eat or because there's a, you know, you're being invaded or because you're a political refugee. I mean, there's all sorts of reasons people move. But what I'm suggesting is that as various parts of the world get more and more arid, and obviously that will be in the African subcontinent initially, but it'll be more widespread over time, then people are going to move. And again, they're going to move to where they can get access.

to water because life isn't possible without water. It's such an interesting point to make and I wonder how that informs the way you view how this country is trying to tackle migration at the moment because the notion that we might be able to stop 50,000 people a year coming I think is actually pretty poked around by exactly what you've just said that hundreds of thousands of people will need to move in future simply in order to survive, not because they want a different economic lifestyle or whatever it might be, but simply to carry on living. Yeah, I completely agree with that.

And I mean, I think the whole discourse around migration is hugely problematic because, I mean, even now, isn't it true? People move, they don't move because they want to travel across the world, taking eight years and put themselves in dangerous situations because they're sort of selfishly wanting what we have. It's never like that or very rarely like that. the same is going to happen more and more when parts of the world become uninhabitable. So how do you get that sort of sorted up?

Well, I think it's a massive question. And I think governments aren't even beginning to think about it, to be honest. So I don't want to just be pessimistic about the future. I've got ways of thinking that are hopefully more positive, but that concerns me. And I think if we were really sensible in the Northern Hemisphere, we'd be planning for these kind of things. We'd be thinking about the implications. But of course, that's not the way these things work. I mean, politics is a very kind of, you know, let's respond to what's happening now.

It's never long term, is it? Yeah, and people feel that they do need a response right now, which is understandable too. I'm fascinated by a more positive outlook. Can you share any of those things with us? Well, I could sort of move on to different ways of thinking about cities. And I think there's been lots of really interesting initiatives in terms of one of my interests is public space in cities. And I think, you know, when we talk about cities, especially cities like London or large cities, we talk about people living together who are very different from one another.

And that's one of the reasons I love cities, actually. I mean, I love all that sort of cosmopolitan, you know, rubbing along, you get on a bus, people from all over the place. That's what I love about cities. I know it's not what everybody loves about cities, but I think that's what makes cities thrive. And a lot of people have been engaged with all sorts of positive, you know, you know, experiments, making good public spaces being one of them. Because I think one of the most important things at the moment is that we don't sort of shut ourselves off in our little houses

and not meet other people who are different. I think quite the opposite. I think it's important what I call it is rubbing along that we actually meet people who are different, even if it's just to nod or even just to look at one another. So public spaces have become more and more valued, I think, in cities, and a lot of cities are doing very good things about it. Even if you just look at London, I don't know.

Have you been to Granary Square, for example? I have, yeah. So Granary Square is behind King's Cross in a part of London that was so run down for such a long time, wasn't it? And it's quite a glorious thing now. Paint a picture of it for us, Sophie, for people who haven't visited. Well, I think Granary Square is fascinating because Kings Cross, I was squatting in Kings Cross as a matter of fact. That's where I sort of began my interest in cities through squatting and working with Home. of these people, but that was a while ago.

And then it was really a very destitute area. Kings Cross was very run down. You know, people thought is unsafe, really. And then they decided to develop it. It took a long time. But the way that it is now is, if you go into it, you cross a canal, and it's a really large public space. And it's surrounded by restaurants and shops,

but it's also surrounded by a big art school, Central London Art School. And in the middle of that, there's water, actually, I think is one of the things that's so great about it because it's one of those fountains that sort of pops out. You know, you're sort of walking along suddenly it's all sort of popping out, you're drenched, and it goes dancing up and then it goes down and then it goes down and then it goes up. And people sit around and play, actually. Children around and get wet. People play, older people sit and watch. I think it's a quintessentially good public space. I think it's organized in a very open and inclusive sort of way. And then you go down from the actual main sort of piazza, as they call it,

to a sort of bank that goes onto the canal. And then you can walk all the way along the canal, all the way to East London in one direction, all the way to Paddington and the other. So I think that's what I would call a good public space. You don't have to spend money to be there. You can just go and sit around and enjoy the atmosphere. I know this is just a ridiculously big question

to ask of you in the time that we have allotted to us. But I think if you did that canal walk, you would really notice as well, Sophie, the gap between rich and poor in London. That canal walk takes you through the mansions of Regents Park, but also through the estates close to Paddington. And what is the solution to that increasing gap between rich and poor in our cities,

which creates huge tension? Yeah, well, that's a really important question. Probably fundamentally important question. I mean, London actually has the largest number, one of the largest number of poor people in the UK, 29% of the people who are poor in the UK live in London. So yes, that needs to be thought about. Again, you know, the kind of solutions aren't very popular, are they?

I mean, we've got house prices that are very high. We've got, you know, people making a great deal out of their own house. I mean, I gather Rachel, Rachel Reeves, only today is suggesting there should be some kind of tax when people sell their houses, property tax, which I think that's good, actually. I mean, why should you sit in a house? How's I sit in, live in, for the last 10 years we've been in that house? It's probably more or less doubled in price. And I haven't done anything, you know, nothing major.

I haven't worked hard to make it so wonderful, you know. So it's kind of profit made out of just sitting in a house. And as you say, you go east and people are living in pretty poor accommodation. A lot of it's rented, I think some less social housing than there should be. I mean, I think probably what we need to do is increase the amount of social housing again, which was largely taken away during the Factor period, not Margaret Fatcher's government in the 80s. I think new initiatives around different sorts of cooperative and social housing, which is happening. Some boroughs are doing some great stuff, actually.

I recently came across a group in Lewisham called Russ, and they're building sustainable environmental housing. So housing is really at the root of a lot of the problems in the city, I would say. And I think it needs creative thinking about reinvesting in different forms of social, cooperative, shared ownership, all those kinds of housing initiatives. Do you think that we will ever, as a nation, stop having this weird love affair with home ownership, which makes for a kind of, sometimes we come out of a comparison with other countries who don't have that love affair quite badly, don't we?

Will we ever change? I think it's really hard to change that. I mean, I think people, you know, it's interesting, isn't it? If you look historically at the end of the war, Second World War, it was only 50% home ownership. And then there were so many incentives towards buying property, different government incentives in the last, you know, half century, really, more than that. And house prices have gone up.

So it's an attractive place to put your money. I mean, we probably, lots of us. I do it. I live in a house I own, well, the mortgage, with a mortgage, it's called. And I think it's very hard to turn that around. I think the only thing you can do is make the other sectors better. You know, make sure there's other good sectors as a choice for people who don't have a lot of income or not stable income, because it's very hard to get mortgages, you know, if you haven't got stable income. As for getting rid of the love affair, I'd say it's quite difficult. If we were to meet in 10 years' time and have a similar

discussion, Sophie. What do you think the most pressing point in terms of our cities would be? Well, that's a really interesting question. I think I probably would still stress housing as a really important one. I think we need to work out ways that people can work and live and do all the things they want to do in kind of more localized ways, really. I think you've got to decentralise because a lot of those areas that are poor have very bad services or poor services. They don't have resources. I mean, this is a pattern that you see a lot in cities around the world. I mean, if you go to Sydney, for example, where I lived for a long time in,

everyone says, oh, you know, Sydney is such a glorious city. Well, it is a glorious city. But, you know, you go 30 miles out west, and people are living in suburbs that are, you know, really quite disadvantaged in terms of services and access to resources and so on. Same with Paris, isn't it? I mean, look at Paris. everyone loves Paris but you go to the suburbs

and they're fantastically disadvantaged and that's where the race rights are and we have some of the same problems I mean our poor areas are in the outer area well in the outer areas not south London where you have lovely leafy suburbs but east particularly and north-east so I'd like to see a reorganisation

of how resources and services have provided and like I said housing do you think this government will get there I like to be optimistic. That's all I can say at the moment. I don't want to waste the time of this podcast talking about my views on this government. I'd like to feel that these issues were possible to solve. And I think with creative, positive investments, you can start to turn things around. Professor Sophie Watson, and as we said at the beginning of the podcast, if you'd like to recommend anybody because they have got an area of expertise that you think should be more widely shared. We'd really be interested in hearing from you. It's Jane and Fee at times dot radio.

And who do I want to mention? Oh, this is a nice one. Listening to your podcast last night while I prepared my dinner in the fridge ready for cooking was salmon and a mix of fresh greens for a stir fry. But I just couldn't be bothered. I totally relate to this. There was a glut of fresh tomatoes on the side,

so I just decided to have fresh, sauteed tomatoes on toast sprinkled with a bit of sea salt lovely god delicious satisfying and quick living alone one of the things I most appreciate is not having to cook every evening if I just don't feel like it

yeah good for you good for you Philippa get stuck in so sometimes my absolute go-to snack of dreams if I can't be asked to cook and the kids are away is two tins of sardines

one in chili oil and one in tomato sauce and I like to have the tomato sauce one after the chili odds just calm everything down and that's it Jane Wow well they do say oily fish is good for you There's just heaven there's just how you don't really need a plate Well I mean this must maybe in some way contribute to your speedy walking I mean I know Keely Hodgkinson has got off to a good start this season But I wonder whether seriously she could take you on over 100 metres walking

I seriously do Maybe you're just keen to leave work What is it? Maybe you just don't want to spend any more time with me It's shattering. Anyway That's it Okay have a

Now hang on we're not here on Monday No we're not We It's a bank holiday Is it? Yes I didn't know I thought it was the week after

Oh dear Do you know what fee Because of the way The calendars worked out I thought the same as you But the bank holiday is this Monday. Oh, good Lord. I hadn't factored that in at all.

I'm sorry, I'm still just... You've cheered up a bit now, aren't you? I'm getting over my... Because the holiday didn't work out. We weren't where we were meant to be. Discombobulating. It's completely thrown me in a way that it just wouldn't have done 10 years ago. I shouldn't have bothered it, and then you should just have turned up on Monday.

That's a horrible laugh. Okay. You are the win. I couldn't have done it without you, babe. Right. Jane and Fee at times.radio. Congratulations. You've staggered somehow to the end of another off air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do it live, every day, Monday to Thursday, 2 till 4,

on Times Radio. The Jeopardy is off the scale. And if you listen to this, you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online, on DAB, or on the free Times Radio app. Offair is produced by Eve Salisbury, and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler. Thank you.