Off Menu with Ed Gamble and James Acaster - Ep 141: Asma Khan

Episode Date: March 23, 2022

Chef and restaurateur Asma Khan – owner of Darjeeling Express in London, and the first British chef to appear on Netflix’s ‘Chef’s Table’ – is this week’s diner. Asma Khan’s new book ‘Ammu: Indian Home-Cooking To Nourish Your Soul’ is out now, published by Ebury Press. Buy it here. Follow Asma on Twitter @Asma_KhanLDN and Instagram @asmakhanlondon. Recorded and edited by Ben Williams for Plosive.Artwork by Paul Gilbey (photography and design) and Amy Browne (illustrations).Follow Off Menu on Twitter and Instagram: @offmenuofficial.And go to our website www.offmenupodcast.co.uk for a list of restaurants recommended on the show.Watch Ed and James's YouTube series 'Just Puddings'. Watch here. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, listeners of the Off Menu podcast. It is Ed Gamble here from the Off Menu podcast. I have a very exciting announcement. I have written my first ever book. I am absolutely over the moon to announce this. I'm very, very proud of it. Of course, what else could I write a book about? But food. My book is all about food. My life in food. How greedy I am. What a greedy little boy I was. What a greedy adult I am. I think it's very funny. I'm very proud of it. The book is called Glutton, the multi-course life of a very greedy boy. And it's coming out this October, but it is available to pre-order now, wherever you pre-order books from. And if you like my signature, I've done some signed copies,

which are exclusively available from Waterstones. But go and pre-order your copy of Glutton, the multi-course life of a very greedy boy now. Please? Welcome to the Off Menu podcast, taking the bacon of humour, frying it in the oil of the internet, and then removing the rind of bad vibes. Hello, James. Oh, you take your rind of the bacon, do you? Well, if it's that horrible chewy rind of good bacon, when it's like a really hard bit of rind, you do need to take that off. But I like the soft fat, of course. Oh, I like the crispy rind, maybe. I love the crispy rind, yeah. I love the crispy rind, very nice, but sometimes you get that

little gelatinous bit around the outside that's impossible to crisp up and impossible to eat because it's too chewy. That's what we don't have here. We don't have chewy rind. No, chewy rinds here. This is the Off Menu podcast with Ed Gamble and James A. Gaster. Quite often we do have chewy rinds, but Benito edits them out, doesn't he? Yeah, and he chews them himself on his own in a little room. He chews them all up. And then text us going, oh, I'm chewing this bit of rind. I'm chewing the rind, and we go, right, going to block this number as well, now. I'm going to block a different number from him every single week.

He's got a bucket full of burner phones, that boy. Yep. This is the Off Menu podcast. We invite the guest into our dream restaurant and ask them their favourites. Their favourite, what? My brain stopped. Well, I know that, you know, it's only theoretical that you've been cast as a snake in the live action remake of Robin Hood, but it's nice to know you're going into it. But I might still do it. Yes. I think I'm proving that I can do it.

Favourite ever start a main course dessert side dish and drink, not in that order. And this week, our guest is... Asmokan! Asmokan, wonderful chef. We always love having chefs on, don't we, James? Love having chefs on, feel very lucky boys whenever we have a chef on. Always a bit nervous when we have a restaurateur in as well. Yes, because we might mention restaurants we like, and maybe they'll be bad.

Well, I just mean we've run the dream restaurant and that Asmokan is going to be able to see that we don't really know how to do it. No, I hadn't even thought about that. Great. Luckily, we've built in a format point that means we can kick Asmokan out if she mentions a secret ingredient so then we can get off the hook easier. Yes, an ingredient which we don't like or the listeners don't like, depending on who suggested it. And this week, the secret ingredient is supermarket sushi. Supermarket sushi.

Supermarket sushi. Sushi? Sushi, supermarket sushi in the shard. Yep, as everyone knows. JP McMunnum. I guess maybe McNamara is the full name. This is just a Twitter handle, McMannamun. Oh, yeah. Well, it's JP McMunn on Twitter and JP has suggested supermarket sushi. Which I agree.

I agree too. Not sure it'll come up in the episode. I think we might be safe with this one. You never know. But supermarket sushi, awful fridge cold, rock hard rice. I recall no flavor. I believe legally they're not even allowed to sell raw fish, so it's always cooked fish quite often. The one that's like mackerel or whatever.

Yeah. That's the worst. The little, the brown fish that's like cooked on the top of the rice in March and Spencer. That... For me, it's the tuna roll, the cooked tuna roll. Tin's tuna roll. Yeah, really bad stuff. Horrible. A bit of cucumber if you're lucky in there.

Oh, my. You need the soy sauce to moisten up the rice. Yeah. Oh. You know, not all supermarket sushi, you know, I feel like we're gunning for M&S here, but they do have a specific thing with that tuna one, which is... Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it is bad.

Oh, way. But also, for balance, Marks and Spencer's have revolutionized the service station game, so... Yeah. Hey, look, I'm not complaining about that. I just, I just worry that I'm going to be banned from there, and I'm currently doing my UK tour electric, and every day I'm having the cut up apple with peanut butter dip. Well, you deserve it then, because you're a Granny Smith lover,

and you know how I feel about that. Only in that context, only in the peanut butter context. I love Marks and Spencer's cut up Granny Smith with peanut butter dip, and also the prawns that you can dip in the cocktail sauce. Yes. Yeah. That is... Yeah, that's good.

I like that. Every day on tour. Yeah, yeah. Tickets available at gamble.co.uk. Very nicely done this week. Merci. Also, people can pre-order my book, James A. Casper's Guide to Quit and Social Media, Being the Best Shoe You Can Be,

Acquiring Yourself of Loneliness, Folly and One. They can do that. Yeah. James struggling to remember the title of his own book there. It's too long. It's too long. Didn't mean long title for a laugh, and now, you know, worried about that. Also, Asma's got a wonderful book out.

Yes, she does. Before we even speak to her, we're going to mention this book, because we've got it sitting here, and it looks incredible. It's called Amu Indian Home Cooking to Nourish Your Soul, Asma Khan of Darjeeling Express, which is her wonderful restaurant. And I cannot wait to make some of this stuff. Slash. Read this book when I'm sat in the kitchen and ordering a Deliveroo.

But it looks beautiful. Yeah, I think there's a big story behind it of Asma's mother, but we'll ask her about it. We're looking through it. Every single recipe sounds delicious. Oh, man. All the pictures of the food as well make my mouth water. I'm so hungry.

And there's a big, also, you know, there's a huge personal story behind it, and a very universal story all the way through that people can relate to. So not just a cookbook in my eyes, there's even more to it. Oh, I can't wait. Right. So without further ado, this is the off-menu menu of Asma Khan. Welcome, Asma, to the dream restaurant. Thank you.

I'm very excited. Welcome, Asma Khan, to the dream restaurant. We've been expecting you for some time. Here he is. Pretty good. Yeah, that was good. That was the genie entrance there, Asma. I worked that one out.

Yeah, yeah. You knew which one was a genie immediately, right? Yes, absolutely. Yeah, which green indigie you prefer out of me and Ed? Yours. Yeah, thank you. Yeah, yeah, it's good. Very dramatic.

It was dramatic. It was very ceremonial, when you say? I always worry, though, now we're in a sort of pandemic era of the genie entrance being quite spit-based when we're in the room with people. Yeah, I can't believe people used to blow out candles on a cake and then everyone ate it. We don't do all of this in the restaurant before. We used to always have candles and singing and everyone's singing.

And now we're terrified. No, it's candles, apples. What happens if there's people in the restaurant and they start singing or they start blowing out candles? They do, they do. Do you shut it down? I'm very, very mean. I have a very mean streak to me.

I come back and say, we are still in the pandemic, although we have an absolute idiot running the country. So you no longer can say that after Thursday that we're still in a pandemic because all rules are being removed. But yeah. Yeah, it's your restaurant, your rules, right? You can still ban happy birthday. No, no, we are banning happy birthday for not just the candle reasons,

but that's a long story and I won't bore you. I don't know, I think we want to hear that. No, because the thing is that people bring in one cake and then we have to give them cutlery and cut and anyone has an allergy. It's all very stressful. There's a legal side of me which I hate. And this is a bit that comes in of what if they have a nut allergy, it's in the cake, it's not on the food because we've got everything marked.

Also, I mean, it hits the bottom line because no one has dessert as someone gets some cheapo cake from somewhere and they all have cake. We've got to wash all those plates and cut. And I feel bad taking cake edge as it's called. It sounds really weird thing to do, but some restaurants do. I've lost the argument, won the argument with my GM and my accountant on this one. So yeah, we don't do cake for lots of reasons. I'm on your side with that.

Yeah, I love that. They bring their own cake to a restaurant. I mean, it's awkward to say no to people and people can get very emotional, but it's a hard one. And I think a lot of restaurants do struggle with this because you don't want to come across as mean. People have chosen to come to your place to celebrate their birthday. And then they whip out this two pound cake,

which 18 people are going to have slices off and you think, ooh, this is like a tough one. Have you thought about keeping some Colin the caterpillars in the kitchen just and then real big markup, like a wine markup. Yeah, we could do that. That would really make us popular. Sixty quid garlic. Yeah.

Well, you do your own version of Colin the caterpillar for that. I think I would love. That's still my favorite cake. The first time I saw it, I thought it was just so incredible. And for, I grew up in India where we didn't get cakes with shapes and things like that. You got a very basic cake and you should be grateful you got a cake. And I just blew my mind that you could get a shape cake for nothing. You could buy a universe on your birthday.

You could get a caterpillar. Yeah. I just loved it. It almost tastes better when it's not your birthday, Colin the caterpillar cake. Just go and buy a Colin the caterpillar cake. I'm not that brave. No? I've thought about it.

I've thought about buying a Colin the caterpillar cake for no reason. Be brave, be brave. Life is too short. Yeah. I did that as a teenager. I'm not surprised you did it. Yeah. Yeah.

Well, I did it by Colin the caterpillar cake. M&S had bought out these limited edition Shrek cakes that were the size of like a face. And it was, I've just realized what I've said and that you're going to try and team me up for an accent. But I'm not going to do the Shrek accent in front of Asma. I'm going to, because I... James, James does a really good Shrek impression.

Now you have to do it. You raced it. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I knew that he was going to do it. It seems like a Shrek. Could you be Shrek finding out that you've got your own cake? It's gone so shy.

Oh, yeah. Shy? Can I please... Because people can't see his face. His face is also turned quite red. Yeah. Yeah. Which isn't good for a Shrek impression.

You're going to be as great as possible. Oh, I can't believe... Mark's dispenser's a dummy, a cake. It looks like my face. Don't get... Don't get out of the slice of this cake. It's a fake fondant. The fondant is so fake.

They've got jab and cream in the middle and two layers of sponge. And that was what I ate. Yeah. Yeah. And was it nice? Yeah, really. I was like, I ate the whole thing. I was 15-year-old.

And you lived to tell the tale. I lived to tell the tale and do an impression of Shrek. But like, yeah, it was... It was... And I had been planning it for quite a while. Yeah. I'd seen it in Mark's dispensers and I thought, man, I'd love to eat that whole thing.

And then my brain went, you can't eat a whole cake. That's illegal. You're not allowed to eat a whole cake. And then as the days went on, I thought, actually, you know, 15, that's the age where you start to think for yourself a bit more. Yeah. And I was like, I think I can eat a whole cake.

Good for you. I bought it and ate a whole Shrek face. So growing up in India, you said there was no shaped cakes. Just round or square, were they the options? They're usually just square. Just square. Just square. And we didn't have a huge cake culture, you know,

but birthday cakes was a big thing. So like, we don't have cakes in our wedding. I think there's no space. People are dying in any case. After seven days of dancing and singing. But I have this obsession with cakes. And I asked my mother very gently when I was getting married that could I have a what I then called the English style,

you know, three-layered cake. And she passed out. She said like, no way. So if I get married again, it's just for that opportunity to cut the cake. It is something that you see when you grow up. It's very hard for you all because of the age that everyone is around this table.

There was a time when there was no internet. You didn't see images. And I grew up in a socialist, you know, Bengal, where all Hollywood films were banned. So we didn't get to see a lot of films as well. So if you wanted to see images or pictures, you went to the library and you looked at an encyclopedia. There was no television at all.

No, no, you had television for two hours in black and white. So it was that time that you imagined how amazing these cakes were. It didn't taste as great as it looks. I have to admit. A bit disappointing, my first experience of fancy cakes in this country. But then, you know, that was 1990s.

Things have improved a lot. The first time you saw a column in Caterpillar was in black and white in an encyclopedia. Almost, almost, yes. Let's talk about your wonderful book that's come out, Amu. Is that, have I pronounced that wrong? Yes, you pronounced it correctly. It looks beautiful as well,

like the cover and stuff. We can't show it to people. It's a very personal book. I think I always had this book in me. I wanted to write about a very special relationship. She taught me how to cook. But also, she was someone who I learned a lot from. I only figured this out once I left.

And I was eating Colin the Caterpillar cake in this country. I realized how much she had actually really taught me how to think, you know, the whole idea of equality deeply entrenched in her. And she was very progressive for the kind of person she was. You know, she didn't go to college. She came from a royal family. She set up a food business.

And she was fiercely, you know, very committed to equality. People who had, you know, emotional problems, women who were abandoned by, so those who society was sidelining, women who were abandoned by the husband, of course, the shame is theirs because the husband walked off. Remember, I was so scared.

She used to go into very difficult slums and tell everybody, she works for me from tomorrow. I don't want any man to walk in there and just to tell her, you don't have to sell yourself or your daughters. You come and you work for me. And the next morning,

we used to hit Ammu at that point because she, there were like four snotty kids sitting outside. But that was remarkable. And she did it in such a kind of casual way. No one would dare tell her that what she was doing was wrong. And she was unafraid to speak up. And I think, although she's never admitted it, I mean, I can say it now,

she was uncelebrated too. She's one of five daughters. She was the middle daughter. And she understands that what it is not to be wanted. And the pressure of having another son and I was not the son, she spent her entire life trying to be very fair to me and my brother.

And I realized that if all you needed was someone to tell you, you're equal. And it was harder for her because Indian society is very shallow. My sister, very, very beautiful. Still looks 10 years younger than me. Looks like a model. And very fair skin, very slim, long hair.

And the comparisons were brutal. So not only was I not a boy, I didn't look pretty. I was fat. I was dark. It was constantly me told all of this. And my mother was just incredible. She never made either of us feel different. She raised us to understand that we're equal. And I learned this very young.

This is why this book is so important. Because you understand the equality and food is a great leveler. She cooked for us. She sat down and fed us and made us feel we were equal. And she made me feel very powerful. She always said, you will change the world.

I know it. I in my lifetime, I want to see, how could I not write a book to her? Because she taught me how to live. It's amazing. Yeah, it's absolutely incredible. Feel a bit silly asking poppins or bread. And still a spark of water after that.

Are there any highlights or recipes in here that mean the most to you that you're most excited to put in the book? I think the biryani. And the thing is that the biryani is a very complicated, usually for large numbers. For those who've come to my supper club will know, like it's massive pot of biryani that is opened.

This is a biryani my mother made, usually when I failed in maths. Or I got into trouble or I bunk school and I was caught. My mother would make this biryani and I knew why. It was to tell me it was okay. So when my brother lost a cricket match or when I failed in usually maths, sometimes science papers, and I would send this report home that,

I'm really stupid child. She would do this kind of thing. And the biryani is that I love that. So the biryani is one of the dishes that I've got in there. And it's very doable. And it's for a small house, six people. So you can eat it in one go. The man who eats a shrek cake in one go

can eat that biryani for six in one sitting. Mold that biryani into the shape of an ogre and I'll eat it. Yeah, James can't eat anything that's not shrek-thin. And for your husband, shrek-thin. It can be made shrek-thin. I'm sure that's very easy to do. So you were saying just before we started recording that your menu that you're going to choose today

is not necessarily going to come from the book? Yeah, because that would be just plugging the book. The book is fabulous. You should just go and get it for all the reasons, right reasons. But as I have the two of you, I thought it would be fun to also... I just think that there is this kind of huge anger with British people in India. We hate the British.

They stayed too long. And far, far, far too long. And they did some good stuff. But I've always... I've never been. I just want to make it clear. I've not stayed too long. I've never had the opportunity to go.

Well, you can go now. As long as you stay for a short time is fine. I will not stay for a while. But the thing is that there's a fabulous impact of the British staying in India, which was the food, which was the Anglo-Indian food, which a lot of people don't know. And Indians like... I had... I wrote in my first cookbook, people were so angry

that cauliflower was got to India by the British in 1930s. Very, very new. And Alugomi Matara, which is in the book, in Amruta book, and it's a great recipe, is a British combination because they even got the potatoes to Bengal. The Portuguese got potatoes to Bombay, the British got. And I just think that, you know, in this kind of xenophobic hatred, which works both ways of the outsider and the other,

I thought I was going to send you on a journey of discovery and make you get things where there is a very strong British influence and an Indian influence. And these are not so well-known dishes, but I just thought, let me make it more interesting. And also it's a shared heritage, our shared heritage. We always start with still a sparkling water. Sparkling. Very, very boring.

Look at that. Straight. No, that's not... But still is the boring choice, right? Yeah. Sparkling is the exciting choice. That's the jazzy water. Yeah, it's the jazzy water. Would you agree? Yes. A bit more jazzy, a bit more fun. Why would you prefer sparkling over still each time?

Because this is still something new to me. I mean, in India, if your water had bubbles in it, you run. There's something live at the bottom of the glass, breathing through that water. You see bubbles, you don't drink it. And it's been 30 years. But in my heart, there's still stuff I take joy out of. And yeah, to see bubbles and you know that it's not an animal

breathing at the bottom of the glass. I'm going to think that every time I see sparkling water now, I'm going to have to check the bottom of the glass and go about something breathing down there. I'll be quite excited if I had a little creature in my glass. Go live in India. I am so scared of all creepy crawlies. I've had a snake coming out of my shoe.

And you know, I know that just this kind of horrible impression that people have here, you know, where the land of lions and snake charmers. But there are snakes. There are snakes and they live in your school shoe in some places. Well, I've tried to invite myself along. I'm mutual friend, Nish Kumar. He goes to India sometimes.

And I try and invite myself along to those trips. And he always says I can't go. Well, I think he's going on like a family thing, mate. Yeah. But I would like to go and hang out. I don't want to go on my own. Nish's family, they know all the hot spots. They know where all the good food is.

His grandma makes good fish curry. That's what I want. I want to go in Nish's family. And then they always say I can't go. Well, you have the book in front of you. This is all home food. India, you should go where you can eat in people's homes. The food in the restaurant is not our food.

Same as the food in restaurant here is not our food. But yeah, you're absolutely right. Wait, hold on, and hang on. Otherwise, I'll take you to my home. Yeah, thank you. Well, that's something that works out better for me food-wise. Yeah. You should go and eat home food.

Yeah, I will do. I'm going to get that fish curry one day. Yeah, you will. Nish is not. You will. Pop it up some bread. Pop it up some bread. That's my card.

Pop it up some bread. Bread. What kind of bread? Not naan bread. Now, why specifically not naan bread? No one eats. You have a fire lit in your eyes now. No, because no one eats that in India.

Your bloody house will catch fire. If you have a tandoor. You know, this idea, people ask me, do you have naan bread? First of all, it's like saying, you know, do you have bread bread? Naan is bread. Bread. I mean, how stupid are you? Like, chai tea.

I kill myself. Don't say. Do not say naan bread. Do not say chai tea. There are lots of lists of things that you should not be saying. Especially not to Indians, because we die. A little bit of us dies every time we hear this. Yeah, so please don't kill us so early in our lives.

But Papadam, just for all you other folks who don't know this, is never eaten at the beginning of the meal. Right. Somebody worked this out that because, you know, mainly white folks have starters. Let's give them something which we eat at the end of the meal just to mess it up. So Papadam is giving the end of the meal

to wipe up all the sauces that are left behind. And the chutney is a digestive to help you break down all the fatty food you've eaten. Ta-da! So no Papadam and bread, no naan bread either. I just want any, any kind of bread. But you just turn my whole world upside down. Yeah, yeah.

We've been saying Papadams of bread to people on this podcast every episode. And I've ruined it. We should have been saying it at the end. We should have been saying bread, you should have just shouted bread at the top. Yeah, and then at the end shouted Papadam. So would you all could Papadam at the end?

I'm so sorry. Just we'll do my episode in the right order. And then you can go back to doing it the other way. Because like everywhere around here, it's being done the wrong way. So fine, you're just fitting in with the society you're living. Yeah, yeah. We've been duped, right?

Yeah, we've been duped. It's not your fault. This is what you've been told happens in India. It doesn't. It's all bullshit. Wow. Who started that? Even though I've just criticised this whole idea of the,

it's really started in the 60s. It's some even earlier. So there were Saletes, they're not even Indians. They're from one little village, mainly in Bangladesh. And they got off the boats and they didn't want to go back. And they'd be working on the ships, you know, merchant ships and other ships. And they opened restaurants of what they thought was Indian food.

And they created a cuisine to make white folks happy. So lots of cream and made up dishes and messing up the order of how food is served. But I actually think that, you know, it's incredible. 1960s Britain, no Irish, no dogs, no blacks, and no Asian person was going to be given money to open a business. They didn't want to go and get benefits.

And this is what they did. They created, you know, make belief cuisine. And I think that this is fine because, and unlike a lot of Indian chefs who are very critical of the curry house, I will never criticize them because I know I stand on the shoulders of giants. I don't know what it was like to be in the 60s in England,

you know, people throwing stones through your restaurant window, people running away without paying, a lot of aggression with drunk people. They changed the palette of the nation. I am where I am. I'm absolutely sure of that because I had first advantage, my cuisine. Whatever happens, you know, your parents, you know,

and you all are young enough, you know, will remember their first curry as the first exotic dish they had. And you will remember going with your family. Maybe you're a bit too young still for that. But, you know, a little bit older than you, going to a restaurant to have, you know, a family meal in a curry house.

This is a huge advantage we have because it allowed us to actually be part of the fabric of this nation. And that is a massive advantage for all of us who are now serving the same food. Different version. But I hesitate, despite pointing out about the papadom, as you call it, you call it papar.

That there is a difference. So, yeah, it's incredible that they did this, that they came in and they were in every village and all over the place. I'm sure if you go and inspect Ma's carefully, you'll find someone has a curry shop up there. And also, that's quite incredible. They come into another country

and just really like analyzing the market, what people would like to eat and just coming up with something that will work and it actually working. And it's pretty depressing that you take one look at British people and go, we're going to have to just dump a load of cream in here. Bring the cream in.

Get the cream. Creamy, yeah. So, because we don't, you know, India is so hot, you put so much cream in your food, it'll split. The food, and then after that, you will be sick for having eaten split food. So, yeah, this is just something that was done for. First time I saw an Indian restaurant was in Cambridge.

I was died. I couldn't believe I was trying to figure out, what is this? And everyone was eating it, like, so happy. I understand, you know, where's the food going to come? I thought this is just things to play with, you know, till actual food turned up. So, what bread would you like?

I would like chapati. And chapati is what we eat every day. It's the most standard bread. It's made on a tawa, which is like a flat iron plate. It's very basic, doesn't have any fat in it. It's just, you know, chapati flour. And it's a basic bread that people will eat every day. I mean, can't go wrong with it.

No, yeah, delicious. And I think that, you know, people still don't understand our food, but I think we're getting there. We're getting there. And it's exciting. And you should say, Papa Dum and bread to your next guest, please. Because that makes sense.

I will. And Joe, what, if they don't pick me up on it, I'm going to educate them. Yeah. Anyone from now on who picks Papa Dum, so we're going to go, oh, right, I see. You don't know what you're talking about. Yeah, at the end of the meal.

Is there a place you've had the best chapati bread? Is there someone who makes the best that you've ever had? One of the girls in my kitchen here, but no restaurant. Restaurant is run by men. Yeah. They don't know how to cook. They know how they've learned to cook in culinary school. If you look at all the, every chef who's working in this country

at a certain level, mid-level, upper-end, their CVs are identical. They all went to the same culinary school. They learned to cook there. And they worked in five-star hotels, fancy five-star hotels in India. That's how they learned to mass cook. We had one fridge and we had power cuts for eight hours.

You ate anything on the fridge? We were bloody dead. Yeah, everything looked like shak inside. It was green and things were growing in it. Yeah, and you would speak just like shak after you ate that because you'd be like, absolutely dead. So we didn't grow up. You couldn't mass cook.

You couldn't cook in advance. It's a hot country. It's very hot and very humid. And half the time there was no power when I was there. Now all the industries are closed. So we had power the whole time. They shut all the factories. So now people in the homes have electricity.

So you were saying to us before, it's that you've got an all-female kitchen that's hard to express. And that's a deliberate thing when you set out to make the restaurant, put the restaurant together, you're like, I will seek an all-female kitchen. No. No, it's just happened.

I can lie just to impress people saying that this is what I plan. Couldn't find a man who knew how to cook the way I did. That's the main problem. Because they've learned through instructions and batch cooking. I learned to cook with my mother. It's amazing that I've written this cookbook considering that her instructions are so bloody random. I burnt something while I was trying to make the recipe.

She only put one cup of water. I put one cup on the whole bloody thing burnt. I said, what is this? One cup of water had burnt. She said, yeah, I did. So then I asked her, which cup? Her cup is a bloody jug. Huge thing on her windowsill.

I said, what do you say one cup? She says, my cup. I said, yeah. But it's not. So this is the thing. You ask any South Asian, also East Asian, the randomness of which mothers when they give me instructions.

So we can't verbalize it. It's intuitive. It's through watching. That's how you learn how to cook. So all the women who worked with me in the beginning from my house and my supper clubs, they just watched me. Someone that don't even eat meat, but they've learned to make it.

And also meat is expensive. Many of them came from very deprived backgrounds. So it's a luxury to have eaten meat. People sometimes ate meat once a year. They just watched me. They learned. And they're great. And they cook just like my mom or my grandmother,

because I've been able to teach them, not by telling them instructions, like put one cup of this and that. They just watch me. And men don't cook that way in my culture, because they never learned through their mothers. We are deeply patriarchal. It's a deeply feudal society.

And if people say that my brother was in the kitchen, I'd be impressed if they did. I never saw a young boy in a kitchen. In our culture, boys and men eat first. Mothers and girls eat last. The leftovers. This is true in also other cultures. All these agrarian societies where the men

had worked in the fields and come back, they were served the food, the best pieces of meat. Still happens today in all our societies. It's not just an Indian thing. But you go there and see the choices, cuts of meat are given to the men. And there's nothing wrong with that. That's fine.

But when he has not been actually harvesting the wheat, the whole day, don't think he deserves that big piece of meat. But that's still our culture. We take it for granted. It's internalized in us. But that is how women cook differently from men in my culture. Because we were in the kitchen. We served.

We never got served the food complete. We helped to make it. And it's even chapati that I was talking about. It tastes like your shoe, my shoe, tastes like my shoe within 10 minutes, because it's hard and rubbery. It's made fresh. Who is making that bread?

Who is making that bread fresh and hot and ready to serve? In my book, I write about this. I tell you a way to keep it warm. I tell you, please make sure that the girls and the women eat together. Because it wasn't just that we were given food last. It often was burnt.

The ones that didn't make it to the table is what we got. You just thought you were unlucky because your roti was burnt. And now when you talk about it, and for everyone who's listening to me, they will suddenly make that connection. It's done in such a kind of casual way. You don't even pick it up that your chapati is burnt. Your chapati is dry.

You're eating last. The hot, fresh, fluffy ones go to the men on the table and the boys. So I'm not going to get any guy to cook for me, because I don't think they've understood it. They've not understood what it is to serve. I'm not cooking to impress. I'm not your Michelin star chef. I'm not doing puff and puff and putting edible flour

and micro herbs and making it look fancy like a garden. I'm cooking to heal you. If you eat things what I cook, you will feel it. What you will feel is my love and my time. For me, the two valuable things in a cook is patience and generosity. And that is why our food is what it is. It is about serving and watching someone eat.

So it's not an easy place to be a woman. And this is why we are at the price point, we are in the location we are, the only all-female Indian restaurant in the world. And I couldn't have done this in India, because we would not have been allowed to. It had to be London. And this is why I love the city.

This is the greatest city in the world. It accepts you. It gives you space. It gives you shelter. And under its umbrella, you can be anything you want to be. I have a kitchen full of immigrant women. Our identity is London.

We're Londoners. We're not British. We're not Nepali, Indian, anything. We feel a love for the city. And because we know the city made us. That's great. I know I'm not like all your other guests. I've heard you on the show.

No, that's great. I'm so sorry. No, this is why it's good. We're just really in fraud with what you're saying. I went to your restaurant and you spoke a number of times during the evening. And I said, we've got to get you on the podcast. So this is why you're here because we like you.

So you know, the thing is that it is storytelling. It's a restaurant. But the bottom line is not about the fact that you've come here. I'm going to extract the most out of you and charge you extra for your papadums, especially because you don't know which order it should come in. No, no, we don't do that. It's about storytelling.

I am trying to hold your hand. And take you through a journey. I'm not just trying to feed you. I'm trying to immerse you in my culture. This is why this restaurant is so different. We want to embrace you. It is an extremely intimate thing. When you cook for someone, you know, my fingerprints are unique.

I touch something. I roll it. Even if you were next to me and we were both following the same recipe from the book, this is nothing to do with the fact that you're not from my culture or you're a different gender. Your sensibility is different. Your senses, your idea of what you are cooking

with your whole being. So when you give something to me, you're giving part of yourself to me. I must honor it. And I want to know who you are. I will not just take your food and pay and walk off. People shouldn't do that. They need to know who are you.

You've made this stuff for me, but I won't sit them down and ask them who they are. But you can't do that in a restaurant's environment. And that's why I come up and I talk because I'm talking so that you know, and I talk about my women, the ones that are cooking, not just about me or the food. I tell the stories because it's very important. When you separate culture and food,

this is where all the mess happens. You know, this whole thing of appropriation, people using food. And also, I deeply feel this as an immigrant, as a Muslim. I won't let you take my food and not take me. You don't have the right to eat my food and get out from my table and walk away, listen to my music, wear the clothes inspired by my culture,

and then call me names. That you're not allowed to do. Please sit down with me and eat with me, break bread. You want to hate me after that. I forgive you because at least I got a chance to talk to you. This is very important. This is why food is a bridge between host communities, immigrant communities.

London is a great place. We have lots of different varieties of food, but we do not have the storytelling because too many men are cooking who don't know the stories from the kitchen because they never learned there. Your dream starter. Yes, I'm going to be very difficult.

I want prawn cocktail. Oh, yeah. Yes, in India, that is in Calcutta, this is like the height of sophistication. I hangover from the 60s. You know, when the British left, this is what they left behind. And prawn cocktail, I still absolutely love it.

I went to Balthazar and I ordered it that day. It was just like wherever I go and I see the menu, people are horrified because they think, what is wrong with you? But yes, prawn cocktail is my ultimate starter. What is it that you love about it? Is it that it's still back in India, it's still like the height of sophistication?

Is that a knack? You can't shake that. Yes, yes. Even though you're now in London, do you know, yeah, it feels fancy. And in India, of course, we are all, anything that has got eyes on all, you kind of avoid to take the heads off things.

But you always had because that was what they did in the times when the British were there, you still have a whole prawn with the head hanging on the side. You've got lettuce, which is a huge luxury. You know, everything bloody builds. Human beings are building in the heat of Calcutta. But somehow there's always this crunchy lettuce at the bottom.

And yeah, it's so exciting. I'm still probably about a week ago, I ordered a prawn cocktail and I don't normally, but it looked delicious on the menu, how it's described, king prawns. So I ordered it and it did not come with king prawns. It came with the tiny little one. Little shrimps.

And I got about five of them and I was very, I don't complain ever at restaurants. So I just ate it, but I was very sad. No, not at all. So you bring it up, prawn cocktail makes me feel, sometimes it's still too recent. Especially bringing up the big guy hanging on the side.

The big guy hanging on the side. I need the big guy. I wish the big guy was there. Sometimes it helps to look at the price. Although that's also not true anymore in lots of restaurants, they charge you and they give you complete garbage. But if you look at it, it's a bit expensive.

You think, yeah, maybe it's going to be really nice. But anyway, I love the one I had. Is there a particular place we're getting it from, this prawn cocktail? Well, I had it at Balthazar, but I usually get friends to make it for me. I want to risk in the restaurant. I don't want to have the same experience as you.

Teeny tiny prawns, not my fun. I want big, big prawns and I want it to look really fancy. And the glass has to be really nice. That'll kill me if it comes in some ordinary glass. Because in India, they come in martini glasses. And it's always a silver spoon with a square edge to it. Very nice. I love it.

You just let up talking about this fancy prawn cocktail. So excited. Yeah. You have to be careful if your mom was making you one and said, you know, make it in a glass. Could be a massive jerk, right? No, no, you never know what. But my mom, it could all go pear shape.

But because she ran a business for a long time, this was one of the big things that she would do in a catering business. People would have biryani, but their starter would be prawn cocktail. No, it's the ultimate sophisticated thing to have in Calcutta. So you say you get your friends to make it for you. Out of all your friends, who makes the best prawn cocktail?

Yeah. No, not getting into that. What's going to happen? What's going to happen between them? Because they're all going to listen to this and then others will never make it for me. And even though they're some of them make it really badly, at least they make it for me.

I'm not going to burn my bridges. No. So this is a known thing. Everyone knows that you like prawn cocktail. Yes, yes. It's a well-known thing. So anyone who's friends with yours, before they even, we had been asking the question,

they knew what you were going to say. Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is very, I'm very predictable, which is very sad because you want to be kind of mysterious and... Well, it took me by surprise if I'm honest. Yeah. I wasn't expecting prawn cocktails to come out. Yeah, because if people who know I'm from Calcutta

would have completely expected me to say prawn cocktail. It's a big thing. I sent Richard Vines, who was at that time working for Bloomberg, to my favorite restaurant in Calcutta. And the first thing you wrote about the prawn cocktail is amazing. So it doesn't matter that people have eaten in all kinds of sophisticated restaurants around the world. Calcutta does it so bloody well.

Really well. Do you find that like food critics, I don't know how friendly you are with a lot of food critics or how well you get to know them, but are they more easily won over by sending them to places that aren't that fancy, that are more like homely dishes or very simple dishes? If you send them to a chip shop to get some fish and chips,

are they more likely to be like, that was brilliant than they are at a Michelin-starred restaurant or someone like that? Well, my experience is that they don't ask me about fancy restaurants because they know I'm not going to one. So the food critics who are my friends, and I'm friends with quite a few, have always asked me, where can we go?

And one of the places where I really regret sending Tom Parker Bowles was to an incredible place run by Afghans in the border of Azerbaijan. They have a hook higher than this and they hang the naan on it. The naan is this big. It's the best chapli kabab, naan and karai goshti I've had in my life. And I told this to Tom Parker Bowles, he's ruined it because that place is not packed.

He wrote a review on that. Those kinds of food are really fabulous to get. And this is like the middle of Bloody Nowhere next to, I'm sorry if you live there, but next to East Hanslow. So it's quite a hike and then from there, it's quite a hike from the station as well. But fabulous food. I think it's important because people's palates

are probably jaded from having food that is more or less similar, even though there is now more variety. But these kinds of little gems, which are very small and very niche and make just four things are still incredible. More and more now, the fewer items on the menu, the more I'm quite excited about that place. Yeah, because it's ballsy on the part of a restaurant if they're terrible at four things and they put them on it.

They're like four things on the menu and they can't cook any of them. I've not thought of it that way, but yes, that's true. That's true. We have four things on our menu and yeah, it's a be quick, fresh. We don't use fridge and none of the girls in my kitchen had a fridge in the house when they were growing up. I never saw a freezer. I thought Bloody It was a coffin.

The first time I saw a freezer and someone opened it, I thought some human beings want to jump out of it. I saw it was like a coffin in college. The first kitchen I've been to, a big kitchen. They opened it and I thought, my God, that human being inside there. Because you know, why are you going to put inside there? It was huge. Your dream main course now.

Is this one that your friends would guess as well? Is it something that you're known for liking? No. No. It's actually something that is bastardized in this country a lot. It's Jalfa Rezi. Oh, yeah. I love Jalfa Rezi.

It's made properly in Calcutta, but a lot of people don't know this is actually leftover Sunday roast that they were made for the main sab, the English people who the cooks were making it for. And then all the rest of the roast chicken that was left over on potatoes, they would shred with their hand and stir fry it with chilies and onions for themselves. But soon the main people in the house noticed

there was this lovely aroma coming of chilies. But this is made with leftover chicken. And in Calcutta, they do it beautifully. We have a very big Anglo-Indian community. And Jalfa Rezi is so good, but I have it in a very strange way. I have it with bread and butter. What kind of bread? White bread.

White bread. We don't do brown bread. White bread with lots of salted butter and Jalfa Rezi on top with tomato ketchup. That, for me, is my ultimate means. Oh. That's like a proper left-overs meal, right? I didn't see the ketchup coming.

Yeah, so I know. I've probably blown my entire reputation of being this authentic Indian chef, talking about all this kind of brown cocktail and Jalfa Rezi with ketchup on top with butter and toast. No, but I think I said, you know, I can't fake it. This is what I love. Have you always had it like that?

Have you always had it with the bread and butter and the ketchup? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Of course. Because that's how I mean it tastes the best. I know, I know. I do it the right way. What is it about the ketchup that works? I think the ketchup might get a bit lost in it.

No, no, no. Cold ketchup on the top. Cold ketchup. Cold ketchup on the hot Jalfa Rezi. Yeah, see, you can see that. You can get it. He got it. He got it.

He didn't get it. He's smart. I understand. That's the dynamite. Yeah, so it just is a great combination. You know, toast is crispy. You know, all the masala is going through. Now you're going to obsess about this till you make it.

I probably am. Yeah, I really am. Yeah, it does sound like, because especially because it's toasted. Yeah. I'm going to roast the chicken and leave it until the next day so I can make it properly. Yeah.

Jalfa Rezi is like my normal order in a curry house because I've found it's the one that between curry houses is the most similar wherever you order it. It's very hard for them to mess it up. Yeah. I mean, they don't tell the story of what it is. It's a leftover meal. And you know, very much like yoga that was rediscovered

by the West, even though we've done in the East forever. And also we had a meat-free day in Calcutta. We've always had in India one day with meat-free. And now you guys have meat-free Monday. So a lot of stuff that has been done for a long time in the East is now being done in the West. But this whole idea of no waste, you know, people die of hunger in my country.

People don't throw food. We don't throw food. Even my restaurant, if you have leftovers, we beg people to take it. We pack it. And then I've seen that depending, I try to figure out what kind of person is this. Do I use the emotional argument or do I use the financial one?

Because I use the financial one for those who look like they may not take it. I say, you paid for it. You're going to throw away your money. Take it. You know, give it to someone. And then there are those who are these kind of, you know, tree-hugging, you know, soft, hearted people.

There you talk about hunger and take the food and it'd be really good for you. So we do all of that, but we don't throw away food. Because the bad bit is my entire staff are horrible. All the leftover food that has been thrown, I have to throw it because they have memories of hunger. They say it's cursed. If you throw food, you will be hungry your whole life.

So who do they get to throw food at me? Because they will say like, you know, it might be good for you. You need to lose weight. And I was like, you know, that is so bad. So yeah, so when you come to my restaurant, please for God's sake, take all your food and go. So they're happy to curse you.

Yeah. Because they were saying you won't be cursed because you don't know what hunger is. And it's true. I don't know what hunger is. And they do. So these are women with very large hearts, but this is, you know, deep superstition.

You know, it's about throwing salt and, you know, kissing the bread when it falls on the floor. There are these. I don't know that one. Kissing the bread when it falls on the floor? Yeah. I didn't know that. Yeah.

I know the phone's salt over the shoulder. Yeah, but in Eastern Europe culture, and people drop bread, they will pick it up and they will kiss it because bread, same like we do with rice. In India, in my part of India, if you drop rice, you kiss it. Right.

This is life. The grain of rice, piece of bread, is about living. Between life and death, that grain of rice can make a difference. So when we drop it on the floor, we kiss it. You're learning a lot. Yeah.

Learning an awful lot. Do you kiss each grain? Yeah. Because if you drop loads of rice, it's going to take a while. So it's always a pain when people drop, especially kids, when they drop a lot of rice. We do then just gather together.

Big pile, yeah. Yeah, big pile. It's really about just showing respect. Yeah. Showing respect for food. Yeah. And I don't mind. I try and get my kids to do it.

They don't do it. They're born here. They have no understanding of what it is. Although I have to say, serves them bloody right over lockdown, when there was no egg and no flowers, when there were no eggs, my son was flipping completely.

You can't get a delivery slot and there are no eggs. I was thinking very good. For God's sake, now you understand. You don't have the God-given right to eat whatever you want. My son was like the end of the world. How was your son? He's 22 now. And he loves eggs.

I've never known anyone to love eggs that much. Oh, yeah. And he's quite frightening because he trains as a boxer. He also teaches boxing. So he eats everything raw, cooked, uncooked, unsafe, safe in the fridge. You leave him alone for a little while. The whole house is eating everything up.

So yeah, he's quite something. And it was quite a challenge when he came back during the lockdown. We struggled to feed the boy. Yeah. I felt at some point, I felt I would rather feed 200 people in my restaurant than my two kids. They were so ungrateful, so demanding, so obsessed

about things that I did not have in the house. I was like, you know, why are you doing this? Even if someone came to my restaurant, even if you have a bloody pulled rod and said, I believe this. I said, no, it's not in my menu. He would not argue. I mean, these kids, like, you know,

why can't you get it? Can you go and bring it for us? I'm like, you know, I had to learn how to make lasagna by looking on a YouTube tutorial. Because they said, no, no, we don't. I said, yeah, go and get the lasagna from Max and Spencer. They're saying, no, you make it fresh, you're a cook. Like, why am I doing this?

Oh, the worst thing in my life. It took for bloody forever. And I hated it. I had to wash up so much afterwards. I tasted fine, but, you know, it was a nightmare. I think we both have the same point that we would like to go back to in that story. Which point?

I've got a few. Probably pulled rod. Oh, yeah, pulled rod as an example immediately. Yes. The pulled rod has he eaten in your restaurant? And you don't put, oh, was that just, like, No, Paul, he's so, I can't believe he's the same age as me. Oh my God.

He looks so young. Look, we're all absolutely bowled over by pulled rod. Yeah, he's, and he's wonderful. He's so nice. And you really want someone who you look up to to be nice. So Paul Rod, Dan Lee, we both incredibly sweet and kind and humble. Oh, yeah, there was the photo of them together.

My mother is like the ultimate. She saw the photo and people were calling us. I say, hey, Asma, I was then all everywhere. She called me and said, I can see you. Who are those two white guys? Did, when he was in the restaurant, did he, many things with sauce in it?

How much sauce did he have? No, he had everything that I gave him. He was the most easy customer to look after. And then he knows this rice story of mine. He packed all the leftovers and took it home, including five boxes of biryani. So he picked up everything, scraped all the grain off and took it. We're told, we're told he's not a condiment guy.

He doesn't like ketchup and stuff like that. If he had that Chalfrazi you were talking about. Yeah, he's not putting ketchup on that. No, he didn't have Chalfrazi. He had very different kind of food with very little sauce and loved the food. It was really nice because he came back three times in three weeks.

But you know, if he might have shrunk down... To Amman's size. To Amman's size. That's why you got to always check your sparkling water, just in case it's Paul Rudd curled up in the bottom of your glass. Yeah, Mark is still water. Yeah, he's there, running around, breathing. So those stairs are now called the Paul Rudd stairs

in my restaurant. Our people come and take, and even people bring their pets. So they have me in my restaurant, but they bring their pet to stand and pose at the stairs. Paul Rudd stairs. Yeah. The little pet. Oh, I love it.

Your dream side dish is peas. Peas with butter and a bit of sugar and salt. This menu, every single turn has surprised me. We don't get... I've collapsed the first time I saw, when I moved to Cambridge in 1991, that you got frozen peas in a bag. In India, you only get peas in winter,

and you have to pop them. And we don't do things by halves. So, you know, family wedding, 5,000 people. But what are they going to have? Peas pulao. So who are the free laborer that you can exploit? Children. So all the kids were lined up,

and bloody whole winter, we are popping... And then creepy crawlies would come out from some of them, like little caterpillars. Oh, horrible. So you just kind of prayed and hoped that this one doesn't have an insect in it, and this one doesn't have an insect in it. And we had to pop the peas,

so all the fancy in-laws and important people, ate peas pulao. But I love peas, because alugobi butter is my favorite thing. And I love peas, but I didn't like the popping them. First time I saw peas, my husband was very embarrassed. My husband is typical. I mean, people look at us and think, you know, how are you guys still married?

He has no sense of humor. He doesn't like food. He's very, very boring. He's very introverted. And doesn't even like... He's just like, oh my God, he's a very boring person. And he took me to the supermarket because I didn't know how to do anything.

I didn't know how to use a card. And I just come from India, fresh, you know, no idea. I saw the peas. I said, well, frozen peas. I did the peas, and I opened it. I opened it in excitement. I have peas everywhere, because I could understand. I could feel the peas from outside.

There were peas pictures. And I didn't deliberately open them, but there were peas everywhere. And I mean, my husband just left me. Yes, man. He was so embarrassed, because it was just... I was super excited. Yeah.

But... Yeah, and I... You're just super excited that it wasn't a body in the freezer, right? Yeah. Did you pick up the peas and peas? I've had to learn a lot of things. Now, when people come...

And I have no sympathy for people who come from India now and say, you know, oh, I miss a family. You can bloody WhatsApp your dog in Delhi. When I came, you could do nothing. You know, it was very expensive to fly. It was very expensive to call. You could see anyone in the family

for a year and a half. You couldn't call them, you know, more than twice a month. It was very expensive. I remember I couldn't use a cash point card. I stood in the rain in Cambridge. My husband had gone away and told me to take it out, but don't put in the wrong number.

Otherwise, the machine will eat the card. That was enough to spook me. The idea that the machine would eat the card and also probably eat me. I was standing there in the rain, watching people taking out cash. I'm surprised I wasn't arrested. You know, persons standing there looking at people.

It was a very different time. And I'm glad I went through that because things still give me joy that people take for granted living here. I watch my kids and I see that they are so privileged. They don't understand. And I came from a highly privileged background. I had everything with me in India,

but I still find these things great. Like you can get peas in a bag. And this is why I love peas, but I wanted butter, salted butter, and a little bit of sugar. And if I want to be very posh, some mint on the toss. Oh yeah, some mint.

Sugar on the peas. I've never heard the sugar on the peas, but I can imagine it. So just pinch, not a lot. Just pinch, yeah. Just with sweet, a little bit more sweetness. You won't do a pinch, though, will you? Well, I probably won't.

See, this is the thing. I'm running a theme on this podcast as I'm obsessed with desserts and sweets. So you can have a peas dessert. Yeah, why tea brulee? Pea brulee. Pea brulee, I would eat that. Yeah, but like it's weird

because of that, because of how obsessed I am with that, from main courses and stuff, I don't often put, like yesterday, I made a curry and the recipe said to put sugar in it. And I didn't do that because I was like, I can't put sugar in my main course. We do. And so I didn't do it.

Which I, but he did the recipe. Ignoring the recipe. You will find put sugar in curries and quite a few of my recipes? Yeah. It's a very, it's this whole thing of balance of sweet and sweet and sour. And this Ayurvedic idea that, you know,

seven is stringent, sour. So all these balances, you know, spices don't, are not complementary. They're contradictory. Indian food is only cuisine that does this, where things work against each other. Sugar acts to balance the thing. So that pinch of sugar added next time.

If your food, your food will not become dessert. Believe me. I know this. I know this one. Okay. You're worried that you're, you're having some of your sugar rations for the next course, right?

Yeah. Yeah, well, basically just happened. Sugar fest. Yeah. I'm having sugar main course. Sugar, should I do it? It's just a pinch though. Yeah.

It's just a pinch. Just a pinch. I should just do it. I should do it. I should do what it says. Be brave. Be brave. Yeah.

I should be braver. Yeah. You dream drink then? Oh, this is a hard one. Ginger beer. Because I drink, I don't drink alcohol. And you didn't get ginger beer in India. And when I came here, someone told me that,

you know, ginger beer is not alcoholic. But I still want to have it just in case it was alcoholic. I was like, what does it taste like? It's really nice with Indian food. I know people have lager and everything, you know. I don't know because I don't drink. So I have no idea how it works. But I think that, you know,

it's the kind of the bubbles and the fizz and the sharpness. It goes really well. So sparkling water without Ant-Man in it is nice. And also then ginger beer. How fiery are we going with the ginger beer? Not very fiery. By the way, I'm very excited that we've got ginger beer on top. I don't like it super sharp.

But the problem is, I still don't know which one is sharp and which one is not. I never have the brains to work out and look at the label and say, for next time, remember, this one is very sharp. So I then get stung again and ordered one that is very sharp. So I don't know the names of it. But no, I don't want it too sharp because I want to be able to taste the food with the ginger beer

and not like have my head blown off. So is there a particular brand that you would normally get? Or is it every time? No, it's the one that comes in a glass bottle. I don't know what it's called. The one that comes in tin is very sharp. The one that comes in a glass bottle is not. So I don't look at it.

Fentamons? Yes, Fentamons. Fentamons. Fentamons. Yes. Fentamons, they're in the bottle. Sure are. They're quite nice.

I mean, I think I like the fiery ones. Yeah, I like a fiery one. I think I like a fiery ginger beer. Most things that I can see, I want to be absolutely just kicked in the face, but... Yeah. See, that's not my idea of fun. Also, for me, ginger beer reminds me of the famous Five.

Yes, I knew that. I knew about ginger beer before that because we all read, and it blightened like crazy. That was for us. And I was so disappointed when I came to this country and I saw that it's not quite like that. I actually thought I'd see little pixies under Toadstools. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, so I saw and I remember the porter in the college telling me, don't go near that. That's poisonous. I saw something that looked like a Toadstool. I was so excited. But he realized, oh, God, she's come from India. She had no idea. She only picked that up.

I couldn't believe it. That first time I saw one. Yeah. With the red cap. Yeah, yeah. Like a real Toadstool. Yeah. Very exciting.

Well, that's like, is it responsible, really, of kids' stories to make those Toadstools out to be magical? Yeah. Nice. And then actually there are some of the worst ones. No, no, I now know that you can't just eat every kind of mushroom.

But I still, it still is and a blightened and still, you know, stories that I read in India. So when I see, you know, randomly fungus growing here and there, I still keep thinking, oh, someone lives under it. Ant-Man. Yeah, it could be Ant-Man again. Your friend Paul Rudd there. We was left out.

Yeah. So Paul Rudd, I think that, as he's had enough biryani and done enough PR for my restaurant, I think the last scene of the next Marvel film should be a biryani in my restaurant. Yeah. Yeah. Because I think it was, I don't know which one,

but the shawarma was the last scene. It was in the Avengers. Yeah, in his first Avengers film. Yeah, yeah. I remember that. So yeah. Yeah, the next generation of Avengers should be eating a biryani.

Yeah, should be a biryani. Yeah. And should be a battle. Should be London as well, yeah. But the Dark Jillian Express. We should go there after this. And then the post credits is all of the Ant-Man lead in it.

When I was in your restaurant, there was a MCU star there as well. Camille was there. Oh. Oh, it's the night you were there. Yes. Yeah, yeah. You gave him some biryani.

I gave him biryani. He came on this podcast and he had biryani as his dream main. I made that biryani only for him. Yeah, I know. Oh, I was sitting there watching. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Are you shitting me?

Yeah. No, we all got to have some. It was delicious. Yeah, so because I remember seeing him in this crazy program where he was weeping and having chili sauce and talking about my biryani seen from Netflix.

Yeah, from Netflix. And I thought, you know, when he contacted me, you know, I'm coming and I'm going to bring somebody, some friends and please get the table. Trying to get a table for six in my restaurant is like asking for the moon. But I gave it to him. And then I also made the biryani

because I was like, you know, he's just so incredible. And, you know, in the big sick, that's also this last scene with the biryani and the potato that his father got him. Biryani is something emotional for him. It's a real privilege, you know, to...

It's exciting that they're famous people, but for me, anyone who comes in with that story of wanting and yearning for food in that way, I feel such a blessing to be able to feed them. And Kumail, for me, it was that, you know, he could have been anyone. I saw that and I knew that biryani

was important for him. You know, a pain in the neck to make it. He was so busy, but I thought, no, I'm going to go and make the biryani for him. Yeah. Well, see, gradually, you're racking up everyone from Marvel. It'll be in a film soon enough. Soon enough, you're going to be in there.

My dream is to have Samuel L. Jackson. That, I really want to see. So I'm waiting for him. Yeah, because, I mean, he's got a lot of iconic food scenes from films. If you can make him a tasty burger. Royale with cheese. Yeah, he'd be happy.

I love that film. I know it's so bizarre because my kids are like, you know, it's such a violent film, mama. Why do you like it? Also, before we move on, the other food thing that I think of with the famous five is cucumber sandwiches.

I wonder if you like cucumber sandwiches. Yeah, of course. Yeah, yeah. All these English things that you think English people have, I absolutely love. And my kids, you know, hate them, but I tried to make it for their school lunch

because they wouldn't eat school dinner. So I had to give them back lunch. And they were like, you know, cucumber sandwich is no way. I was thinking, you know, I would be so happy for my mother giving me cucumber sandwich. I sit down and think, I'm in the storybook.

I'm living that life. But no, because it's sort of based on that inspiration of Enid Blyton. Do you want lashings of ginger beer? Oh, yeah, it has to be lashings. It has to be lashings. Yes, absolutely. I've forgotten that.

That sounds good. That's the lashings of ginger beer. Sounds way more. Can't even imagine what a container of beer is. Just come back. I know, how would it work? Yeah. It just sounds so good.

It just sounds so good. If I had an empty glass and someone said to you, what, lashings of ginger beer? If I said, yes, I would expect my hand to be drenched. Yeah. With ginger beer. A jet. Yeah, they've just gone over it.

We arrive at the desert, as you know, my favourite course. Excited. I always get nervous. I also don't know why. I'm also now nervous because of the fact that you will not like my choice. This is the thing,

it's I always get nervous that people are going to pick. I have two options and now I would desperately want to pick the one that you like. No, the one that I'll like will be the one that he doesn't like. So you're pleasing someone. My usual reaction for, I can't do that. Oh God, I'm so nervous,

but I'm just going to say it. Yeah, let's go for it. English trifle. Yeah, I love it. Oh, that's great. That's good. You'll be happy with that. Love it.

Okay. Brilliant. I just so love it. What was your other option? Baked Alaska. Oh, come on. Are you both for those? Yeah, you'd be happy in a way, wouldn't you?

Yeah, I love it. So they are both this kind of… I was worried you were going to say a cheese board is what I was worried. Oh my God, what is cheese board? Yeah, I know. I've never said. Yeah, I know.

God, this is what people who are so tortured in their lives, you know, who really need to go into therapy. Yep. People need to go into therapy. Those who have cheese boards, because after you've had a bloody meal, you eat sweets.

What are you doing? You're kind of… I don't understand. No, no, go on. I like a cheese board. I like a cheese board as well. He likes a cheese board. He likes them.

I do. Why? What do you want to end on a salty kind of… Why? Yum yum. I've put so much sugar in my peas. You need some sweetness in your life. Yeah.

Well, I get that from a nice chutney with the cheese. But it's all salty. On a poppy-dum? Yeah, we have a poppy-dum at the end, and we know that now. Allow that. No, but you have poppy-dum and chutney,

and then you have dessert. All right, okay. So, the salty end is like weird. I prefer… Overall, I would prefer a cheese board and then a dessert. But if I had to choose sometimes, I'd like a cheese board.

Awful, isn't it? No, it's just… Yeah, he's a bad man. Yeah. But you're okay with trifles, me choosing trifles. Oh, very, very happy with trifles, yeah. Delicious.

I think you're a fourth trifle on the podcast. I'm surprised more people haven't chosen. I think I can remember who… Jamie Oliver, Harry Hill. This is incredible, James, that you remember this. Yeah, well, because Harry Hill, we talked about the three layers of the trifle,

and who was who. Yeah. So, it was… Jamie Oliver, him, and it was someone else who Harry Hill really liked, I think. But now I can't remember who it was. Oh, a man…

Yeah, you're in good company here. Is it the four of you? I think I've blown my reputation of authentic Indian chef who's just written an Indian cookbook, dedicated a mother, and I've picked the most bizarre things that for me would be…

You gave us a heads up, though. You did tell us what you were going to do. So, I think it's fine. I think it's a great thing. Yeah, I thought that was just good. Because I never play to the galleries, ever. Because actually, you can't sustain this whole thing. I cannot fake anything.

So, where your Calcutta is still hung up on the Raj, the British left in the 40s. Calcutta hasn't really moved that far in some ways. We still have this kind of bubble of what people think is sophisticated, what they think is beautiful. And you will still go to very beautiful clubs, gentlemen's club.

They used to be, but now, of course, you've got families there, and get baked Alaska, and get a trifle. It's just wonderful coming from a city like that. I don't think everyone in India could even relate to what I'm saying. But Calcutta was the capital of the Raj,

after London, and hated or difficult, as it is at least you can look at the positives of it. It's very uncomfortable for all of us to have lived like this, and known that our history is, with all that happened with colonialism. But there are all these positive things that we got from cocktail, and we got trifle.

And so, I think they're always good and bad. We need to embrace things that happened and not hate. So I refuse to hate anyone. And for me, trifle and peace, yes, anything. Not together, like in Friends. No. No. No, that would be too much.

No, your mind wouldn't understand that. That's good. Yes. All right. Would you try the trifle that Joey ate in Friends? You wouldn't even try it? No. I would not try anything that Joey ate,

because somehow, Joey is just slightly frightening. But we had David Trimmer coming to Kingly Court, and I have never seen such chaos. More chaotic than when Danny DeVito came. Danny DeVito, we were able to hide. Yeah, he's small. And because of his height or whatever, he just spoke, and that was chaos.

I mean, we were just trying to protect him from everyone. Danny DeVito, people just thought was so wonderful. I think people just hesitated. David Trimmer was mobbed. We didn't know what to do. We couldn't control anything. It went out of control. He was too tall.

Too tall. I think it was just too tall. DeVito's the perfect height for just sneaking in places. Yeah. Him and that, man. Danny DeVito was kind of fridge-sized and so wonderful. We didn't tell him not to speak too much. He was so loud.

Everybody outside the restaurant could hear him, and would stop, Danny DeVito! So yeah, I told him, just keep low-key, and then people won't see you. I love that. Also, he's that size. Yeah, that's so brilliant.

That's so brilliant. How much you run your restaurant that you're like, I've got to tell Danny DeVito to shut up. No, because it became unmanageable. Because people would just queue outside. Like, even Kira Knightley, when she would leave, we would literally run her out, because they had everyone chasing her down the stairs.

Get Kira Knightley to be quiet, by just like, she just write down stuff and hold it up on boards instead. And then no one will hear, and I'll be okay. You know, food should be about this. It doesn't matter who you are. You come to my door, you put your burden down. Outside.

I say this to everyone who comes, you know. Leave your burden out, and who you are is out. You come inside, you sit down, and I will feed and feed. That's what I want to do, because that's the great equalizer. Food is. My mother taught me this.

You know, you feed with the same respect and honour. You do not ask that person who they are. Unless there's Samuel L. Jackson. Samuel L. Jackson, I think I will just pass out. He does go to the restaurant. Right, read your menu back to you now. See how you feel about it. Sparkling water to party bread.

Start a prawn cocktail. Main course, Jalfrazi with toasted bread and butter. Ketchup on top. Side dish of peas with salted butter, sugar, and mint. You want lashings of Fentomans ginger beer, and dessert, an English trifle. Do I get to eat it now? This is not how it works.

It's not how it works. You are the genie. What's all the sound effect in the beginning if you don't want to deliver now? Oh, and? Yeah, you can eat that. I'm going to get... No one's ever called me out on this before.

I mean, that is funny. Oh, so it's one of those all sound and no show. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So as you go into the restaurants, we ask you what you want, and then we just go and say, yeah. One of the difficulties of the perception people have that you are now successful as a chef and a cook or whatever. No one invites me.

I really miss that. My friends have stopped inviting me. They invite themselves to the restaurant. And I don't think I've ever been... Anyone has cooked for me for a long time. Well, if you're listening, Paul Rudd, sort it out. Yeah, come on, Paul. Also, I know how you feel.

No one ever tells me how you joke no more. No one ever jokes to me. Oh. I haven't laughed in years. Did I sound as bad as that? No, no, no, no, no, no. I love my friends. You know, it's easier for them to come

because there's food in my place than for them to bother making prawn cocktail for me in theirs. Thank you so much. Thank you. I've really had a great time. Thank you. Well, thank you very much, Azmar. That was fantastic. Thank you.

Well, there we are. What a great episode, James. Wow. Felt an honour. An honour. And it's always so lovely. On the rare occasion, we feel like proper podcasters. Yeah, that was... That felt like a really good interview.

And that's mainly because Azmar is very arresting. Yeah, we didn't talk as much, which is I think that's when I feel I could pop a podcaster. Well, we don't trample over everything our guest says. Yeah, well, I'm just going like, Yes, I know me! You know, I actually remember that they're the guests. I like sweeties.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I like cheese. Well, we did do that a bit. Yeah, we still got that. And then, listen, Leopard can't change its spots. He didn't offer a popper down at the end. Oh, I feel a bit... That's annoying, isn't it?

No, we fucked up. Yeah. But what a wonderful interview. She did not say Supermarket Sue. She, of course, she did not, which means she's earned a full plug for her brilliant cookbook, Amu, Indian Home Cooking to nourish your soul. That is out now.

So go and buy it. We've had a flick through and we're already very excited to cook some stuff from it. Yeah, if you've just listened to that episode and you don't want to buy it, then I think you won't listen to the episode properly. Yeah, you're an idiot. You're an idiot.

But if you don't want to buy James's book, I do understand. But I'm sure it's going to be very good. James, what is the name of your book? Say it quickly and say it from memory. James, take us as a guide to quitting social media, being the best you can be and killing yourself of loneliness volume one. So make sure you're going to get that book by James E. Caster.

What? You said James. That's how you started, isn't it? No. Oh, God. My tour electric is currently happening all over the UK. Go on to edgamble.co.uk for tickets. Sure, I've been to some places already,

but there's a lot more places to go. Yeah, if you missed the ones so far, make sure you catch them later on. My chair nearly just slid into Benito's little desk there. James, I'm trying to plug my tour and you keep doing your slapstick. Sorry, everybody. I'll be back on stage one day with a slapstick.

Thank you very much for listening. We'll see you again next week. Goodbye. Goodbye. Hello, it's me, Amy Gladhill. You might remember me from the best ever episode of Off Menu, where I spoke to my mum and asked her about seaweed on mashed potato

and our relationship's never been the same since. And I am joined by me, Ian Smith. I would probably go bread. I'm not going to spoil it in case. Get him on, James and Ed, but we're here sneaking into your podcast experience to tell you about a new podcast that we're doing. It's called Northern News.

It's about all the new stories that we've missed out from the North, because look, we're two Northerners. Sure, but we've been living in London for a long time. The new stories are funny. Quite a lot of them crimes. It's all kicking off. And that's a new podcast called Northern News.

We'd love you to listen to. Maybe we'll get my mum on. Get Glittle's mum on every episode. That's Northern News. When's it out, Ian? It's already out now, Amy! Is it? Yeah, get listening.

There's probably a backlog. You've left it so late.