Off-Nominal - 09 - Randomly Throwing Money Out Into the Cosmos

Episode Date: June 12, 2018

Jason Davis joins Jake and Anthony to discuss when and why—but not how—humanity will go to the Moon and Mars. Okay, maybe a little how. And also some space policy talk. Beers Dragoon IPA - Dragoon Brewing Company - Untappd Artistry Series 2 (Noelle Miller) - Wicked Weed Brewing - Untappd Astronomical - Wicked Weed Brewing - Untappd Topics Funpost! Space beer face-off | The Planetary Society The Humans to Mars Summit Is NASA painting itself into a corner with its ISS transition plans? | The Planetary Society Why China is opening its space station to international partners Bezos outlines vision of Blue Origin’s lunar future - SpaceNews.com A brief history of Resource Prospector, NASA's cancelled lunar mission | The Planetary Society NASA has a Moon landing plan—sort of | The Planetary Society Picks Pop Chart Lab | Design + Data = Delight | The Chart of Cosmic Exploration Chasing New Horizons: Inside the Epic First Mission to Pluto: Alan Stern, David Grinspoon The Space Barons: Elon Musk, Jeff Bezos, and the Quest to Colonize the Cosmos: Christian Davenport Amazon.com: Ursula K. Le Guin: Books, Biography, Blog, Audiobooks, Kindle Amazon.com: Worlds of Exile and Illusion: Three Complete Novels of the Hainish Series in One Volume--Rocannon's World; Planet of Exile; City of Illusions eBook: Ursula K. Le Guin: Kindle Store Follow Jason Jason Davis (@jasonrdavis) | Twitter Jason Davis | The Planetary Society ROCKETGUT! Follow Jake WeMartians Podcast - Follow Humanity's Journey to Mars WeMartians Podcast (@We_Martians) | Twitter Jake Robins (@JakeOnOrbit) | Twitter Follow Anthony Main Engine Cut Off Main Engine Cut Off (@WeHaveMECO) | Twitter Anthony Colangelo (@acolangelo) | Twitter

TLS and go for main engine, start. Negative return. Welcome to space. You know, I think this just sounds a lot more hollow without the opening, rousing chorus of God Save the Queen before we start. We're out of the Commonwealth edition. Yeah. Jason, a little background.

We got Jason Davis here with us of the Planetary Society. Say hello, Jason. Hey, guys. Hello. Last time, I was on vacation in Europe when we usually record, and Jake got two other Europeans to do the show. with him for whatever reason, but they had a little Commonwealth party. But I've triumphantly returned now.

Yeah. The Americans are back. Wait, so somebody's Canadian and you're both, that's okay. But they were European. So it was like across. They were British. So we were uniting over the Union Jack and the Queen and a lot of superfluous U's in our words. So it was a very.

and a morning beer for Jake and the morning beer yeah yeah it was really fun it was like I think we what was it I don't know 10 the morning or something like that but it was uh yeah it was fun but uh we're back

managed to get the pot the uh the time zones correct because I was killed at that immediately I you know what I've done a lot of European interviews now and I think I've screw up only like 30% of them so this is a this is pretty good but Anthony's back now

so the sound works a lot better That's for sure. We had some struggles with that last time. But you're here, so that's good. Why don't you tell us a little about your vacation for you? Like two minutes. Two minutes. That's a long time about vacation.

I'm not going to do two minutes. 90 seconds. Yeah, we'll push it. But yeah, fantastic. Italy is fantastic. Everybody should definitely go to Italy. It's great. You eat all the food.

Florence is pretty great. Definitely felt like Italian Philadelphia, because it's like got a chip on its shoulder that it's not the big city, but it's got a lot of art and history as well and good food. So it felt like definitely we stayed there for like a week, so it felt like we moved in. We had like a favorite coffee

shop and all that. So it was You were in Florence the whole time? No, we flew from Philly to Venice. Oh, you said Venice. We were there for a bit and then we went to Florence for a week. And then we went out to Cinque Terre, which is on like the West Coast before flying home. So it was a little

northern Italian venture. Oh god, that sounds fantastic. I went there for my honeymoon and man, I ate all the things and did all the things too. And God, I want to go back so bad. That was like 10 years ago now, so yeah. Yeah, it's pretty great. And at one point, to bring this back to space, the train from Florence to Cinqueatera goes past Pisa. And I was looking at Google Maps because the other LIGO station is like just outside of view of the train.

train tracks and I was so bummed that I couldn't see it over the farmland. Like, I don't understand how I couldn't see it. But I was like looking on the maps as we're cruising by. I'm like, it's right behind those buildings over there. But couldn't get a sight line on it. So, I'm surprised they can fit like, because you need to have like a really perfect L shaped thing. Like it's so rolly hills there. Like I'm surprised you can. Tuscan Mountains end. And then all of a sudden it's like, well, we found a perfect L shape thing. That's exactly the length that we need in. Well, we put it here on, nothing normal except you know it would be great. It would be this Ligo observance.

Yeah. Yeah, it totally seems like it fits in with the rolling countryside of like Tuscany and everything, you know, vineyards. And oh, and then a particle physics experience of some kind. It's natural. Blame it. Blame the tower leaning on that and maybe people will be less mad about it. I don't know. Yeah, exactly.

I mean, it's probably, I guess it's probably no different than, uh, um, how natural it is to have like a giant rocket factory in the middle of the rolling hills of Alabama too I guess right so oh yeah totally fits in yeah yeah cool okay so Jason why don't you tell us a little bit

about yourself maybe two minutes or 90 seconds he's really into this like time gated thing yeah yeah yeah yeah 100 words and no more than two minutes yeah tweet

we're a tweet length um introductions No, so yeah, my official title was digital editor, which just basically means I write about space. And we have two reporters at the Planetary Society, essentially me and Emily Lockdawala, and she's our heavy hitter with planetary stuff. So I get to tool around with human exploration and some commercial space and things like that. And then I also, it's funny, I was hired initially to do a lot of light sale work, which is our little cube set that does the big, it's going to deploy big solar sail. But that project just keeps getting stretched out infinitely. So I don't do a lot of light sale stuff all the time.

But, you know, whenever it eventually launches, I'll be doing that a lot more. And I'll be really annoying, like tweeting about it a lot and stuff probably. But for now, it's just hot space take. guys. It's just, you know, random. Well, it's like job security for you. I mean, as long as light sale keeps getting pushed back, you're not going anywhere. Thank you. Falcon heavy. Yeah. Yeah, as soon as light sales finished, you're going to be like, Jason, we need to have a chat. Usefulness has come to an end. Yeah. So that's me. That's me.

Okay. Cool. Yeah, I mean, the light sales stuff's really cool. I'm full disclosure. I am a light sale backer. I think that's a cool little goofy project that I, thank you for your service. But yeah, I know it's cool. But I think that all the stuff they've made you do kind of as accessory to that is pretty good. I really like the stuff that you add in terms of the SLS coverage and commercial crew coverage. All those kind of, the rocket stuff, I think you add a lot of value to planetary side of that. So, Thank you for your hard work, and that's why we're really glad to have you here. Thank you for reading.

Segway, he also wrote one about space beer recently. Very true. Yeah, yeah. Do you have any space beers with you at this moment in time? I don't. So because I did the space beer thing, I didn't want to double back on one of those because for the space beer post, I did literally go to the liquor store, and it's one of those little indie liquor stores where they have the giant coolers where you just mix and match your six packs.

So I kind of depleted that stock. And now I'm back for tonight, a standby. This is a local standby for me. It's a Dragoon IPA. It's local to Tucson. And, God, I really love it. And I know it's such a cliched thing to be like, oh, guys, I brought an IPA.

I'm so fancy. But, no, they make a really great IPA. And it's like a tall boy, well, the 16 ounce can here. So, yeah, that's what I'm, That's when I'm rocking tonight. Not a space beer necessarily, though. What about you guys? What are you drinking over there?

So I've got two. So, Anthony, I think maybe you have some of the same stuff, I'm guessing. I don't know. Yeah, we got a little special surprise in the mailbox this month. Yeah, yeah. So we have a listener. So shout out to Corey, who is a listener of, I think, all the podcasts, I think, all three of them. He's like,

and, uh, we gotta come up with a name for that, like a super fan or something. I don't know. I was going to go baseball term, but then I realized that wouldn't work for you. I don't even know what baseball is.

So, um, but, uh, yeah, so he's also, um, uh,

works at a brewery in North Carolina, which will happily give a shout out to called wicked weed. Um, and, uh, so he sent us a care package and, uh, care package to me in Canada is always a challenge.

And, uh, unfortunately, of all the beers he sent me, only one of them, or one of them, not make it, did not survive the USPS trip. So I collected this amazing box at the post office.

I crossed the border into Washington and pick this up because you can't ship it across the border. And then it was it was kind of soaking in beer when I got it. But it got it here. So I have an India pale ale as well, but it's a double India pale ale. Ooh, that's the high octane. Yeah. Yeah.

You're rolling deep. What does it say? It says, oh, it's just artistry series to Noel. Miller double IPA. So yeah, it should be interesting. I love IPAs. I'm a sucker for them. I've got the astronomical IPA because I know that this is the one that sadly didn't make it the jig.

So I was like, oh, he won't, I'll at least have this one. And I've got a cool cumber. So you brought a space beer to your space beer podcast, essentially. And we have another connection, Grant in the chat room who makes brewery equipment made their brew tanks. So this is like, so strange. The circle is complete. It's so weird.

Yeah. It's a small, nerdy, spacey, beery circle. Yeah, that's a really odd connection. It's a good circle. It's a great circle. It's my favorite circle. Yeah. Oh, man.

Jake, you've been pretty cranky about space lately. I have been pretty cranky about space. Oh, yeah. I'm going to give you as a cranky person a selection of topics to start from because I like ranted cranky Jake. And then maybe Jason and I can talk you out of it. Or encourage it. I don't know.

Well, you know, okay, so full of, like what started this was, and this is going to make it sound like I don't like what this is, but the Explorer Mars had their Humans to Mars summit, their conference, right? And I look forward to it every year because it's like the humans to Mars summit and everybody's there, everybody talks. And I'm like looking through the agenda and I'm watching some of the live streams and watching the coverage. And I don't know, I got my into a bad place because it was like I felt like everyone was talking like they were debating over how like how to send people to Mars or like well you know how many people should be in the crew what rocket should we what should a city look like well how would we terraform what would be the government and it's like I think they're just getting way way too ahead of themselves because I and I had to think about it a long time and I'm still not done thinking about it but like I think that we we haven't figured out figured out enough of the why we want to do. do it in order to to understand how to do it.

I think that's why there's so much debate about it. It's like trying to like try to design software where you don't know what you want it to do yet. And so you can have a bunch of arguments over what language you should use, but you don't have any way to solve that. And so I got really like depressed and cynical about it. And it's sort of just carried on through like a bunch of different news coverage since then. And now I'm just like on Twitter.

I'm just like, I'm not even going to like this tweet anymore. I'm just mad about everything. So that's where it starts, I think. I think that's, I don't know, what do you think about that? There's a lot of architectures out there, right? Like everybody, you know, that's the easy part of the problem. Like, yeah, you can debate architectures and what type of propulsion you're going to use. And, you know, everybody has an idea on that.

But you're right, that's especially if you start getting into like, what's the city going to look like? What's the government going to look like? And that's cool and all. I mean, you know, that's why most people got into this kind of stuff in the first place, because we're envisioning like all these awesome Mars cities or whatever, or spaceships traveling throughout the solar system. But, yeah, once you've been at it for a while, that stuff does, I'm with you on that. It starts to drag you down a little bit and bum me out because you're like, guys, you know, we're really,

we just want, in the meantime, like, NASA is, you know, not talking about that stuff at all. and they were just kind of, yeah, stuck on low Earth orbit and, you know, seemingly not doing much of anything at the moment. So, yeah, I'm with you on that. As the eternal optimists, I will bring our, I think some new hopes have arrived. I think this is my, I've been on this kick the past week or two. We had, I lumped these things in similar trains of thought this week was that the Chinese announcement of this, like, we're opening up our future space station to experiments from other countries and some of these rumors slash kind of leaked by their own people, uh, thing that Blue Origin has been talking with maybe some

European countries about the whole Moon Village idea, which I know like Bezos has talked about in good light in the past of like co-locating stuff on the lunar surface and foreshadowing, you know, some announcement to be made at the end of the year at IAC. And I put these things kind of together conceptually, not because they're at all alike. One is a, you know, a governmental program that is very different in philosophy from a private company that is pouring massive amounts of money into, you know, their own ambitions. But I think the, the rise of those two things as competitors, not necessarily, you know, one-for-one competitors with what NASA has always done historically, but competitors in the way that the whole world sees opportunities in space,

you know, kind of competitors for Mineshare, I guess you would say, in that we're nearing an era, era. I don't think we're there yet, but we're nearing an era when there are multiple options of who you want to partner with and where people are going and what kind of things they're working on, rather than, you know, what's always been touted as, like, the best thing is that ISS brings the entire world together on a single project. know how productive that is. You know, I'd rather there be three or four groups working on all

different ideas and building out some sort of, you know, industry and community in general, rather than like put all our eggs in one basket and then, you know, we can get into ISS transition stuff, have all of our eggs in one basket that we need to figure out what to do with the basket when it gets a little old. So I'm encouraged lately, and I'm curious if anyone else out there reads that kind of stuff the same way I do with hope that it could. could give other people options that might not have had a leg in on the, you know, NASA, Issa, Jaxa, Ross Cosmos, you know, grand plan in the past. Yeah, it sounds like China opening it up. It definitely gives a leg an opportunity and in for

some of these other countries that haven't been invited to participate. You know, and I've heard private companies talk about this too. Axiom, I think they're, yeah, they've talked about this, too, that they see a market for these sovereign astronauts, I think, is the word they use. So, like, you're talking about, say, Iran wants to send somebody up for, you know, put them on a space station. Then right now, there's not really a way to do that with the international space station framework, but a private space station or China, you know, there's a possibility.

That probably, I mean, to me, that seems like a national prestige kind of thing. You know, you can say, hey, we put an astronaut in space space. And that's super cool. You touched on something really interesting there about the whether or not the international piece of it really helps or hinders things. And I think there's always this assumption that when you go international, like, that's obviously the way to go. And in theory, it would be, right? You can cost share. You can, you know, that's the International Space Station framework.

But I think in practice, sometimes that ends up being a little more. more complicated. I mean, look at NASA with the Insight lander. You know, what was the thing that held it up, an international instrument? And it wasn't because this international company, like, screwed up or something. I think you just get into these inherent complexities when you have to design one chunk of something that plugs into somebody's bigger chunk of something. And the ISS was kind of like that as well.

I can't think of any big delays in ISS construction because of that. But, you know, so the rambling. Maybe just the sheer amount of time spent on docking adapters. That might have delayed something. Yeah, exactly. It was like four different standards that have been developed. And they're still, they just added new ones last year. Yeah, yeah.

You know, so on the other hand, it's not like you just want to see one country take the wheel and go for it. But it definitely does drag things. It slows the process and maybe ends up ultimately making things a little more expensive than they would be. Yeah. And I think that, When you get multiple stakeholders who have to justify their costs, it's kind of like, okay, so if you have, let's say you have one stakeholder, you have NASA, and they're like, well, if we're paying for all of it, we get to decide all the things we want to do.

But then if you have someone else cost sharing, then you have to kind of agree, like, what are the mutual things we want to do? And so, you know, in like the Venn diagram of use cases, you have to pick the stuff in the middle. And then when you add a third one and a fourth one and a fifth one, that Venn diagram, middle part gets sunk into like the small little P. And then it's like, okay, well, basically we just have a lab on LEO and you can, you can send stuff up to it. But don't try and do anything else with it.

Right. Like that's your use case gets dramatically smaller the more people who have their hands in the pot, right? So how do you guys think that? That's what China's going for, though, right? Like that's what China's not going to look for somebody to like come in and be major partners. It's just like, they're like, hey, come on up. and do that out.

That's kind of what they like, they say that now, right? But like there's been European astronauts doing survival training over there. Like literally sea, you know, sea recovery training. So there's 100% plans to send an ESA astronaut up to the Chinese space station at some point.

And, you know, there's no shortage of docking adapters there too where they always show their renders with like their, I guess, what, three or four core modules. And then they have two crew space. spacecraft and a cargo spacecraft attached. So they've got some extra ports there. You know, if somebody came along... Now, the other part is I don't know

that anyone else at this point has a lot of interest in developing a Leo station or even components of it, other than, like you were saying, Axiom or something like that. Like, I don't know that Issa's looking to get roped into another space station if there is this moon village idea out there and they all of a sudden have even a blue origin to say,

well, we're going to the moon, and we like the idea of co-locating and, you know, all picking a spot on the moon. But then, you know, this is kind of maybe a different model than what you were talking about with, you know, and it's an international project, but each component is a standalone thing, right? They're just landing near each other, and maybe they do provide services to each other in some regard. But it's not necessarily like one is dependent fully on the other in a way that, you know, a single space station architecture is. So that's kind of curious to me as well.

Yeah, Moon Village is a, that's true. That is an interesting concept where you just sit down close to each other and you each can develop your own independent things. But, you know, I think the Jeff Bezos analogy was like, oh, you can go ask your neighbor for eggs or oxygen or whatever the heck you need. Or beer. Hey, guys, come over. We got some really good moon stuff.

But that's cool because you could say like, oh, you know, I've built a really, uh, reliable cargo lander and I'm going to make some deliveries every now and then two-day shipping right to your moon village you know yeah and then somebody else could say well we'd rather you know build some mining equipment and figure out what we can do with that and you have this like I think it in what I was saying previously that the the one grand plan kind of pulls everyone down to a certain level the opportunity to go we're all going here but we can all try our own ideas and see what works and maybe your way is not good and my way's good and maybe my way is good and

maybe my way here kind of is not as good as your way there and we'll just figure it out as we go. But you can try more things than when you have to sit in, you know, hundreds of hours of reviews to make sure that your component exactly lines up to my component. Yeah, and you can buy services from one another. So like if Issa has something that they do really well or NASA has something they do really well, you know, you can as long as the, well, I guess they kind of do that aboard the International Space Station right now. You know, they've trade in terms of hardware and,

supplies and things like that. But yeah, the interesting piece about the Moon Village is who's going to, when's it going to start? You know, that idea has been out there for so long. Who's, how's it actually going to come together? That's the piece that still hasn't fallen into place. Yeah. And I think there's a challenge there with the exact same reason that the Explore Mars conference felt like a challenge.

Like, until you decide, well, we want to go to the moon because we want to do. fill in the blank, then how are you going to decide, well, then the moon village should look like this or like that, or this is how much you want to spend on it? Or like, you can't figure that out until you have a purpose. Like, you need to know why if you're spending that money. That's the point of a moon village, not a moon station, is that I don't actually give a shit why you want to go to the moon. If you also want to go to the moon, you can have your own reasons. I don't care what you land, but just land near me and we'll be there together. We can do our own thing. It's cool. So what are the reasons? That's a big question. That doesn't give you a reason. I'm just saying that not everyone has to agree on one particular reason.

Whereas on a Mars mission, you get one shot every two something years. You kind of have to have one reason to go together unless you're going to send a fleet of things out there at the same time, which I don't think is as realistic as, you know, launched the moon every month and land near each other. You have to still come up with the reasons, but you don't have to synchronize them in the same way. Yeah, yeah. And if you have one key stakeholder, like if we're talking about NASA leading the charge to Mars, then they kind of have to get their house in order before anyone else can, you know, strap on, right? Do you think everybody's kind of, sorry, I'm asking the questions here now, John. That's what we like. That's the point. The reason that we do this is so that we actually just have a monthly hangout to just do like, we all live all across the country. You like to act like we're real life friends every once in a while. Yeah, yeah. I wonder if it seems like almost like everybody is waiting on everyone else to pick up the baton. And so like Blue Origin, you know, they're kind of like, yeah, we can do this. Ideally, we'd do it if you all were doing it, meaning you all NASA, like, yeah, we'll kind of go together in that regard. But if you don't want to do it, we'll do it ourselves probably a lot further down the road. Kind of same with SpaceX and Mars. You know, the initial plan with the whole Red Dragon thing.

was like, oh, we're going to go together. And then, you know, it kind of, they're like, oh, if we're going to have to go on our own, we're going to do this BFR thing, and it's going to change the equation a little bit. It seems like everyone's kind of in a holding pattern, waiting for somebody to come up with the master plan to go. But maybe it doesn't, you know, maybe we don't need a master plan. Everybody has their own plan, and we just all agree to start at the same time. Blue Orange and thing always rubs me the wrong way because I, I, it's not, I'm saying,

this in a way that sounds worse than I mean it, but it feels disingenuous. Really, I should probably say they, it feels like they're saying that to not step on any toes. Whereas like, yeah, of course they would like to work with NASA, but I think they have their own timelines internally, and it's like, we'd prefer if somebody else can pick up these pieces, but we've got plans for them, you know, no problem there. So I'm always a little curious about the way that that statement is phrased. Yeah, that's a good point. And if NASA doesn't go, well, I mean, NASA says they're going, but Blue Origin can't just set up a cargo shipment service without customers there.

So who are they going to do it for unless they do it for themselves? Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah. And I feel like there has to be some sort of incremental step that I don't fully understand yet, because like to go from nothing to having something where something that requires shipments, like that's that's a big, that's a big step. And they're going to need some sort of incremental mission to develop their technology. So like I was really pleased to see the, you know, like the RFP for payloads for lunar lander.

Like the commercial lunar lander program gives me a lot of hope because it's like really small and actionable. It's like, okay, it's a small little lander. you go to universities who want to do something with it. They all have scientific goals. So like boom, boom, you have a bunch of payloads. You have a reason to go. You have a pretty small cost.

And it's an opportunity for companies to get in and start building that. And I think that's like step one and like a moon village with people in it is like step 12. And I don't know what step two through 11 is. Like that's that's kind of what I'm trying to figure out. Like how do you if you want to make it more than just go and then come back and then be done with it, what are those? what are the iterations of plan, right? That's where I lose it sometimes.

And the same thing for Mars, like moon or Mars. You can go all the way there and orbit, I guess, and then come back. But then you have to go pretty far to get to the surface. Like you have to kind of bite off a pretty big chunk to do that. And that's the tough part. I think that's why it's to such a huge upfront cost. And that's why we haven't done anything with it yet, like concrete. Because with that huge cost, you need to convince someone to pay for it.

And you need a really good reason for that. And, yeah. Yeah, NASA's what they put out the RFP for the little commercial landers, and that's going to be decided fall-ish. Do I have that timeline right? Or sometime this year, I guess. Yeah, it is an interesting approach because I think the initial payload NASA is asking for the moon is like, it's very small, like 10 kilograms.

Yeah, it's like two-digit kilograms. That is, when you think, about how much, I mean, I guess that's enough to put a small, you know, what Sojourner type rover on the moon, roll it around or something. It's interesting that you have

that NASA is proposing, and then you have Blue Origin basically saying, like, oh, we'll land like several metric tons on the moon. Tens of thousands of kilograms. Yeah. It's like, okay, well, there's, as you said, there's a huge gap there. You know, the thing that NASA did

on this last budget where they created this planetary science division, the lunar discovery program, that's an interesting approach that you're going to try to work some science into there, which, you know, shocking, you're going to work science into your human exploration program. But, you know, if they can put some small

instruments on these things and go in and then get some basic lunar science done and make some scientists happy, that's one way to increment I guess plus there's the question of in C-I-S-R-U. I'll just say ISRU because the Dragoon IPA will make me not say in-C-2 correctly, apparently. But yeah, that's a good question. When does that work in?

Some people say that has to be immediate, start from the beginning and start figuring out if this is even possible at all. But then you have somebody like SpaceX who is just kind of like, no, we'll just ship a tanker up to orbit and fill up our spacecraft up there and we don't need resources from the moon. Yeah, I guess no one has it quite figured out yet what they want to do. That one's funny too because it's like maybe we should just refuel a hydrogen and oxygen based tank first in space ever. We've never done that. So like maybe we should. Yeah, we should ever try to fill one of those instead of just like, you know, the hydrogen and stuff that we refill now. So I don't know. It's like make sure the filling works before you take a

drill with you. That's a really challenging one too, because like, we can conceptualize how we're going to do it. Like, okay, you drill, you get the water, you split it into hydrogen and oxygen, bam, put it into some tanks, transfer it to a vest. Okay, great. But, like, we've never done the drilling part and, like, that extraction. So that's a huge technological development that's going to have a very big R&D cost. And if you're a company that's trying to do all of it at once and you're doing that,

and you're trying to develop, like, the transportation to get to the moon, that becomes challenging. And you're carrying on two big projects at once. So, like, the only way I see that working is if, like, some companies, like, I'm going to do just the extraction part. And I have a plan for that. And this is what I'm investing my capital in. And you need to have those other services to kind of latch on. Like, I need to buy your rocket and your lander. But those things have to be in place first then.

So then they need some reason to go first. Like, if we're going to depend on commercial companies, companies kind of doing all this, there's sort of this like logical progression of like, well, if NASA can kickstart the the rocket, then the rocket can kickstart the lander and the lander can kickstart the ISR. And there's kind of like this succession of technology development. And so I don't know, what's what's the kickoff for that? Is it, is it science? Like science feels like a good one because NASA can just fund it and it doesn't really need a ton of reason on its own. Like it satisfies its own requirements because people want to do it. And and that's a good one

for a government to fund because there's not any ROI on it, right? At least not at first. If I were not a podcaster, I would go all in, now bear with me through my architecture discussion, as you just discussed that you hate architecture time. I would go all in on as much sample return as I possibly could from the moon because in the past, there has been people very in the black market that have paid a lot of money for chunks of the moon. So you've got a little cash there if you want to go that way. You've got plenty of scientists that would like to get their hands on more samples. And you can start, if you bring it off back,

you could do ISRU research on actual material here at Earth, which is a lot easier because you can try stuff out a lot faster. And you're building up experience the whole time, you're building up, you know, people want access to that stuff, so you're bringing stuff back for them. You can do, you know, all of that research if you want, or sell it to somebody who's willing to do it. And by the time that you've maybe worked out some of the initial ISRU research, you're really good at landing stuff on the moon. And you're pretty confident. You can land very targeted in a spot that there would be something to drill, and you can build from there, rather than doing ISRE research in situ, I guess, but

you know, it's like pretty close to bring some stuff back. And if we're able to bring enough of it back, that sort of changes the way we think about research even. Even, you know, this research of like industrial-based stuff, not so much, like, what is the moon made of? So I would go all in on that.

So where's that company then? I don't know, man. I think we're starting it right now. Someone in your channel just said, Patreon stretch goal. I agree. I think the off that significantly. The off nominal podcast should. I never really thought about the value of moon samples being returned.

One thing I had always thought about, and this was my hot take with the lunar discovery program, that NASA has always said in the Decadal surveys, that a South Pole sample return is a super high priority mission for them. And it keeps losing out in the New Frontiers program to all these other missions. So if you had a commercial company in the scenario you're kind of describing here, be able to bring some samples back from the South Pole at half the cost of a New Frontiers mission, say, you know, 400, 500 million, that could be huge for the scientists who want that, who really want that. And then, like you said, then sell some moon rocks in the black market. Oh my gosh.

Yeah, there you go. Does it need to be the black market, though? Can't you just sell that on eBay? Well, it only did, it only had to be the black market because it was technically still NASA property or something, right? Oh, yeah. Even though you can't own stuff in space, but they sure own that stuff.

I don't know. You know, so Jason, you mentioned that, and it actually now is my synapses are starting to go here. So I wonder if at some point soon, we will see a new frontiers or discover some sort of competitive planetary proposal where a commercial company looking to develop technologies like subsidizes it. So, you know, if Lockhe's like, you know, I want to, I want to land on the moon and

there's a technology we need to develop on the moon. And so if you let us be a part of your mission proposal, we will give you the lander. We're not going to charge you for it, but, you know, that you give us a reason to go. or half-seas or something on it so that the competitive mission gets a cheaper ride, they can spend more money on payloads, and the commercial company also gets a benefit. I wonder if that would ever happen

or if the technology development risk would turn NASA off of it. Yeah, I think it's a fantastic idea, but the problem is Planetary Science Division, with picking these competitors, relatively selective missions, it almost seems like they're not taking on as much risk as they, you know, as scientists would like. I mean, you look at the last selection round and they went

for the comet mission for New Frontiers and then, I guess the Titan mission's pretty ambitious. But that seems to be a complaint that like Venus, for instance, keeps missing out on a mission because it's hard, apparently. Who knew? Like a planet with crushing atmosphere and stuff, you know, it's apparently hard to land something there. But so I think I could see it getting partially funded and partially halfway there as far as winning a new Frontiers or discovery round. They could be a hard sell in the short term. I heard rumors that the, so I don't know if you guys heard about breakthrough initiatives was talking about this Enceladus mission to go out and like do a follow up on what Cassini found, Enceladus, look for, you know, microbe.

and the plumes or something. And of course, Enceladus is a decadal survey priority. So that means a mission there falls into what you could propose for discovery or new frontiers. So what if the breakthrough folks said, okay, we're willing to pay for the cost of building the platform, building the spacecraft, if you guys operate it, because obviously they don't have the resources to do that. they're just a, you know, it's just Yuri Milner randomly throwing money out into cosmos.

So he says, here, have some money. Lockheed or whatever company will build you, ball aerospace will build you the platform. But you guys have to operate it, obviously, and do all the science return. And there's your public-private partnership, you know, that funds one of these missions. Yeah, I heard rumors that was being back-channeled, you know, but there's no framework right now at NASA for that kind of setup to make that happen. How do you pitch something like that and actually get it accepted? So I guess I'm skeptical that it would happen any time soon, but I think it's a great idea, and if it happened, it would be really cool.

It's a little closer to the commercial cargo, like buying a continual service rather than, the one-off mission. So it might even be like, you know, in these scenarios where we have to make deliveries to the moon, I don't know, we're, you know, 20 years down the line, but in that same scenario where like it's an ongoing thing and not like, we have a launched window right now where we have to hit nine gravity assists to get to this spot, you know, it's like the stakes are a lot of higher, or maybe the stakes are the same, but it's spread out, you know, because SpaceX obviously said, you know, we're going to develop this entire new architecture. We're a company that was founded by an internet guy four years ago.

Can you give us a billion dollars? And I swear, we'll figure this out. You know, that was kind of that model where it's like, and as we're seeing with the costs that they're quoting for the second round of commercial cargo, they're figuring out what it costs and it's way higher than they originally pitched. You know, so in effect, they did subsidize some of that in an effort to build their own launch vehicle and obviously, you know, create the company they have today. So maybe that's, but that's like, you know, completely not the science side of NASA thinking.

Yeah, maybe not, but this, this, you know, this direction we're going now assume, well, I guess it all depends on whether Trump gets reelected and whether we end up with another four years of this same direction or whether a new NASA administrator changes it. But, you know, if there really is this funding behind this cooperation between human spaceflight and planetary science when it comes to the moon, you know, I guess now that I think about it a little bit, it doesn't seem that far-fetched that, you know, once the planetary science community gets comfortable sticking an instrument on a little lander or something, you know, that eventually scales up to a full-fledged, you know, a broader mission that this model can be kind of shown to work. I just realized as we've been talking here, the sun has gone down. Turn on some lights. I hate that. Your viewers cannot like... Nobody can see you.

But I'm just appearing as this apparition out of there. Anyway, go ahead. I'm going to reach on over and turn on the light. Well, Jake had on the list of topics, Brydenstein, however many months in now, weeks in we are now. And Jason just touched on that a little bit. Do you guys want to talk about that at all, how he's been doing, what you think about positioning,

overall or anything like that. Well, here, let me, I'll frame it broader than we can let the conversation go. Excuse me. How many minutes do you have for this one? Two minute framing. Yeah, yeah. I think two minutes is sufficient here. So let me see.

Okay, so Brian Stein is kind of one component of it. But like the way you describe it, Anthony, with this whole, there's multiple options. You don't have to court NASA if you want to get anything done anymore. We could go to China. We could go to a commercial company. Bridenstein seems to be kind of a symbol of that, right? Because he's really trying to court these private public partnerships, the hot buzzword of the day.

And, you know, it makes me wonder if that's the model that Bridenstein and others are pushing, and that's the new world, if this winds of change are happening and that's where we're going, what else in NASA has to change? like is does that make even, you know, does that make a program like exploration systems development with SLS and ground systems and Orion even more irrelevant? Like does that make it make international space station even more irrelevant?

Like is this enough to cause even deeper changes in the short term? The thing about Bridenstein is that despite everyone assuming he was going to be, well, I think there was an assumption, at least when he was first named as a possibility for administrator, that he was going to be a big change agent, that he was going to come in and shake things up. And a lot of that, I think, was his stances on climate and things like that. They just thought he was just going to come in and upend a lot of vital NASA research. And my take on him is he's been pretty vanilla so far. He's walked the line on things that were already being said before, and he hasn't exactly, instead he's done the opposite.

He's tried to placate everyone that he's not this monster that's going to shake things up a lot. That doesn't answer your question of, you know, is he going to be enough force behind this commercial initiative to really keep pushing that? I don't have a feel for that yet, whether this is lip service or it's actually. going to be a real thing. I bet if he got four more years to work with this, that you might see some substantial shifts, or maybe by the end of his term, if he doesn't get a second term.

Yeah, yeah. That's interesting. I wonder if a Democrat replaces Trump in the next election, would they keep him? I was just about to ask that, because it's like, yeah. NASA itself and politics surrounding it,

climate aside probably they're not that divided no you see that in congress even today you know they're obviously with s ls iran is one thing but you've got people pushing planetary stuff like colberson and you know democrats signing on to that wholeheartedly so it's you know the congressional side is is very synced up and you know if if this is a person that's working directly with congress and you get, you know, if 2020 Democrat is elected and they don't necessarily care that much about space. And he's got a good track record last couple of years. And, you know, the candidate talks to some Congresspeople and they're like, we like this guy. He's got good vision. It's not implausible. And it might even be a good way for future candidate to say, look, we're reaching

across party lines. We're trying to, you know, peel some patches here. And it's like a very, for that hypothetical candidate, it's a very low impact area where you could do that. It probably depends on, you know, in this hypothetical situation where a Democrat wins in 2020, it depends on whether that Democrat runs on, I'm not Trump or if they run on, here's my new idea and just pick me over Trump, right? Like, because that seems to be the challenge right now that in candidates that we see, right? Are they just a not Trump or are they actually the wrong person, right? Even so much as like, we're going to change it to the lunar orbital platform gateway, even though it's the same damn thing.

Totally not the same thing. Totally not. Well, it could be, right? Maybe they'll just keep Rydenstein, but they'll change his name, right? They start calling him, they rebrand him. He's like, J.B. Yo, J.B. That sounds so much better.

To connect with the youth, the millennials. How do you do fellow kids? Skateboarding through, you know, building nine. Yeah, yeah. Oh, Lord. Yeah, this conversation is a jump to share Yeah, we went from like, I can't, I hate talking about architectures to like, what do you think the 2020 election's going to look like?

Which is just a political version of architectures for Mars. Okay, how long we've been talking? I was going to say, we probably could scoot on over into some picks. You got them. Yeah. Cool. Okay. Do you want to start or?

Me? Yeah, we're just two of us, Jake. Sorry. Anthony. Would you like to start? So as I said, I was on vacation for the first half of May. Then I landed and like a day and a half later, bought a house. And that was like the next two weeks.

So the last month I have not like read anything or watched anything. And I feel like most of my picks have been either books or like I picked like Blue Planet once, which is cool. So I've got a totally different pick. I did set up this brand new office slash studio. and I did hang this print right behind me, which you can't really see because of the reflections. But this is a sweet print. It's from a place called popchartlab.com.

I guess I should have the link ready. It is their... Let me read the title again. The chart of cosmic exploration. And it is amazing. I love this crew here, Popchart Lab. They make these like infographic-y prints. I've got this one.

behind me and then there's like a Apple products one to the right of me and they make these great illustrations so this is the bottom half is an illustration of like all of the spacecraft that have explored the solar system and then the top half is this like not to scale map of where they went and it's it's amazing and it's only like 30 something bucks to get the print and it's large and glorious and perfect for space nerds walls how up to date is it i'm just looking at the one you post in the gym and they do update these all the time So like, I've got this Apple product one on my wall that's like only up the date of 2015, but they update that every time there's a release.

So I don't know like if this has, you know, some of the newest stuff, but it's probably, let's say anywhere. It says to discover in 2015. Oh, yeah, there you go. A little meta description. Yeah, yeah. So like, you know, fairly recent, but not, doesn't have Zuma. exploring the earth

exploring the ocean yeah I love looking at this thing all the little illustrations are great and it's a good piece I gotta get a less reflective frame for it though so that you can see it in the video better so that's my pick that's cool yeah

I'm excited I don't know Jason if you can see but I'm like in the process of renovating right now because I'm selling this house because I also bought a house apparently it's like podcasters by a house fun Patreon's doing great. Not good enough for a lunar architecture yet, but...

Everyone knows podcasting is one of the most... Especially independent podcasting. That's where you really make the big bucks. But yeah, so I'm like now plotting out my new place, the office, like what it's going to look like. And I have to try and show up Anthony because I don't want him to have a nicer studio than me. So... Can I talk about one other thing hanging my wall?

Yeah. This is way better. you can't buy it. And this is a stupidly good thing. And I never talked about this on the show before because I didn't hang it up previously. But this other frame over my shoulder is a sheet of 1968 original Apollo 8 stamps that has the Earthrise photo on it. That the guy that runs the engineering department at where I work full-time job, like a year or two ago, he was over his father-in-law's house and in the attic found a body. of these stamps and mailed one to me just like this sheet I'll post a photo of this later

because it is amazing and it's like you know the old perforated paper from the 60s so I've got it framed on the wall and it's like it's such a weird random thing that I've come into the possession of that I didn't even know was still around but if you see them on eBay they are great right next to the moon rocks that I will bring back from all that patreon money full circle That's really cool. And actually it reminds me because I got to add this to my office plan now because my grandmother,

bless her heart, sent me, she was cleaning out her attic and she found all the life magazines from the late 60s that had all the, the Apollo stuff on it. And so, and she's already like, I don't know,

she must, she's like, she's like cut out certain ones. So it's like, you're like opening these life magazines. There's just like pictures missing. But it's like, it's so authentic feeling.

It's great. It just has this like weight of history in it because it's all like damage. But there's some really good shots in there. And maybe I'll maybe I'll fall asleep with you and put that up as well. Hmm. My idea are churning. Okay. My picks though.

So it's funny. So when I, my relationship with audiobooks is like basically it, it correlates to when I go on on trips because my regular podcast feed is like just perfect where like I can keep up with it on commutes to work, but I can never like get ahead of it. And so when I go on a trip and I have a plane ride, I clear my podcast queue and then I have to get an audiobook to make up for it. So in May I had April and May I had a bunch of trips. I cleared my podcast queue. And so I was able to like knock out two audiobooks last month.

So I'll I'll share those. So the first one actually we talked about was it a couple episodes ago. when when burn was on we talked about the New Horizons audiobook so i um chasing new horizons is it by alan stern and uh david grinspoon so i finished that one it was really good i i'm really happy i listened to it read it um i thought it was really cool to hear the i'm a context guy so hearing the whole backstory of like all the different pieces that didn't work and didn't work and didn't work over and over and over again and all the different hurdles they had to fight to get that mission to fly was just kind of pretty fascinating to me. It's an interesting perspective because it's kind of half written by Alan Stern and so there's a little bit of like Alan Stern is so great and

this mission is so great. So if you can take that with a little bit of like a little bit of a grain of salt and you can get past that, there's a really good story behind it and that was really cool. And then the other one I read was the Space Barron's one by the Davenport from the Post, right? That one was really cool because I didn't know enough about the back history of both Jeff Bezos and Blue Origin and then the whole Paul Allen, Bert Hurtan, scaled composites, you know, Spaceship One story. There's a lot of good nuggets of info back there that really helped give me some context. and I was really happy that the parts about SpaceX were about SpaceX and not about Elon Musk. So it was really good to like hear about the actual company strategy and a little bit of that. So yeah, it was good.

So I knocked out those two audiobooks the last month and feel like I'm really on top of my audiobook game. So they have good narrators. Is it like someone you knew or rando science narrator? The New Horizons one, Grinspoon narrated it. Yeah. So he's got a pretty. pretty unique, charming voice, which I kind of liked. And then, yeah, the spaceburn's one, I think was a professional reader, but he was really good.

He even did, like, he did voices. So I always love, I think he pull out voices, like the, you know, the Martian audiobook is really good for that. The guy does really great accents. But he nailed, like, Richard Branson's accent. It's just, he doesn't do the full accent. He just, like, takes his own voice and just adds, like, 10% of the color. So you know who he's talking about. So it's like this quasi-British Richard Branson, which is really good.

But yeah, so they were both really well narrated for sure. Because you don't always get that. Yeah, that's why I've like, there's been, there's one of the astronaut books that I just couldn't do. And I don't remember which one off the top of my head, but I like bought it. Was it Scott Kelly's? No, no, no, it was one of the Apollo era ones. Why was it? Is that a bad one?

It's just flat all the whole time. No, I'm joking. I didn't read it. Well, the Scott Kelly. one is kind of like that. It adds authenticity because it's Scott Kelly, but he's an astronaut. He's not a public speaker. And so it was a little, a little, like, flat, but it was still good. But yeah, for sure. Yeah, I have a funny story about the Kelly brothers and speaking, like audibly, you know, narrating. So I did my graduate program at the School of Journalism at the University of Arizona.

I made a documentary about, it's called Desert Moon. It was about what the University of Arizona did in terms of the moon landings. They did a lot of the mapping and stuff like that. But we needed an airator. So we were like, who's a popular Tucson-based spacey person? And we immediately came to Mark Kelly because he's here. He's married to Gabby Gifford's big Tucson institutions. So I got to work with Mark for.

like three hours to do the narration for this film. And I had never worked with anyone to narrate anything, and I haven't since. So like giving an astronaut directions, like, Mark, can you say it more like this? And of course, I was just terrified and a little worried about it. And Mark, in the meantime, is like in his New Jersey accent, just plowing through lines that, like, I'd so meticulously crafted. And then Gerard Kuiper discovered. we could land on the lunar surface.

And Mark's just like, bam, right through and goes on to the next one. And, yeah, it gave me a lot of insight. And I mean, those guys do not suffer fools, and they don't have time to screw around. But it was cool. It was a good experience. And just meeting him was cool. But, yeah, I can imagine Scott reading it the same way because they're very similar guys. Twins, in fact.

Yeah, exactly. Not as similar anymore, are they? Now they're genomes. They're like completely different species. I read that on a headline one. Jason, you got some picks? I have a pick. Yeah, some picks.

So a couple, I guess it was earlier this year. Ursula K. Le Guin passed away, and she is a science fiction author. And I did not know anything about her other than when she. she died. A lot of people in my Twitter feed were like, oh my God, rest in peace. She was a wonderful author, fantastic woman, did all this stuff to influence me. And of course, there's a lot of women saying this. And, you know, as I'm constantly reminded in my male white boyisms that I am very unwhoke and very unworldly, I'm always reminded of that sometimes. And so I was like, I'm sorry, guys, I don't know who this person is. And people are like, people I work with. They're

like, why you don't know any Ursula Kayla Gwynne? And I'm like, no, I don't. I've never read her or don't know anything about her. So I resolved to fix that. I thought, well, I'm going to read some of her books. And I started with, and I'm just looking at her reading list here,

there's a trilogy she wrote called Roe Cannon's World, Planet of Exile, and City of Illusions. It's like a trilogy that all goes together about this. Basically, it's a futuristic society that kind of sprung from the cradle of human-ish worlds that now goes out and makes first contact with all these other alien worlds.

And kind of unlike Star Trek where they're kind of hands off or something, you know, they kind of nudge them along and give them some technology and things like that. Anyway, I did not know anything about Ursula Kela Gwynn, started reading her books and was blown away at how great they are. So if you like E&M Banks, of course, the guy who wrote the stuff that Elon Musk loves so much with naming his ships after them and everything, this is very much in the same vein. It's the very much the same tone and type of story where you have this advanced culture that goes out and meets other cultures, that kind of sci-fi. In fact, I guess she inspired Ian Banks in some ways, or served as an inspiration for him.

So anyway, I want to recommend her books. If anybody out there is like me and did not know who she was, and then was like, oh, maybe I should check her out. I would totally recommend it. Right now I'm reading The Dispossessed, which is one of her later books also in that sci-fi vein. And it's super cool. And I would totally recommend you check her out if you never have.

that's great yeah i i remember when she she died too in my well i mean our twitter feeds are probably not not too dissimilar but um but yeah it is the same thing and i totally did not know who she was and felt the same um sheltered uh white boyism um for sure um that's great i'll have to check it out i'll have to get my podcast you have to go on another trip Yeah, she'll plan a vacation real quick. Italy's great. Yeah, the cool, if you, yeah, go to Italy and read all her books there. The cool thing about her, that unlike other sci-fi books that I read sometimes,

they're very, her prose and her, like, setting up the scene for you is very simple. You don't have to, like, memorize, like, 100 different crazy alien species and who, like, strange words and everything. She keeps it very simple and compact, which I saw some people on reviews going like, oh, this is too weak for sci-fi. But I actually love it because I can just plow through the books very easily. And they still keep me entertained. So, yeah, good nighttime reading, like, before you fall asleep. It's not like a Red Mars scenario where you've got to remember, like, nine generations of 500 names. I don't even know what's this is.

I feel so bad about that one because, like, whenever I talk to someone about books, you know, with Mars and the podcast, they're like, you must have read Red Mars and I'm like dude I tried you must love that you have a podcast about Mars you must love the Red Mars Blue Mars cream and I'm like no no couldn't do it like did you at least get through the Red Mars no I got to like I was like reading it I had like the sucks I'm like I'm browsing through it and then I just like got to a point where I realized I had gone like nine or 10 pages and I just was not paying attention I was like thinking about something else it's like when you're driving

And you're like, you're like, suddenly snap back. You're like, you're at work already. How did I get it? Yeah, it was like that, but with a book. And I was just like, I'm reading. And then I look down at the page. I'm like, I don't know where this is. I don't know who this person is.

And I'm like, I got to end this book. Like, it's not for me. There's some really like good stuff embedded in it though. Sequels like, yeah. Oh, yeah. I need like, like, Cole's notes. I need to like have it as like a school project where I just like flunk out and read the Coles notes and then get the, get the gist.

That's what I need. Is that a Canadian? Is that like Cliff Notes? Yeah. Cliff changes name in Canada? Yeah. When you add the U into Cliff notes, you know.

Yes, Coles notes. N-O-U-T-E. Shout out. N-O-U-T. Yeah, so shout out to all my Canadian listeners who know what Cole's notes are. Okay. Yeah.

That's funny. Cliff notes. That's the same thing, right? Yeah, that's what we. It's like 14 pages tells you the thesis of the book, right? The problem with Red Mars is that, like, I felt like a lot of the cool parts were not at all related to the plot in any way. Like, there was, like, really interesting political stuff about who was going to Mars,

and I found that stuff very interesting, and none of the other crap. Like, I don't care who was blowing up excavators going down mines and stuff, and there was, like, people hidden over here and whatnot. But there was like some really interesting dynamics of people going to Mars. And it's, I don't know, just you got to get through a lot of characters who then become immortal or whatever. And then it's like, okay, well, at least I don't have to learn new ones. It's 200 years later and it's the same 100. It's convenient plot device to give everyone like anti-aging properties.

I bet Jake didn't even get that far. I think the last thing I remember there was like some blimp and it was dropping weather stations or something. Oh, yes, yes. I think. But that's where I like, I woke up and then I didn't, I didn't know how we got there. And so. Yeah. Jason, you got your picks out there.

I want to hear your plugs. What are you been working on? What should people go check out if they're like, I got to read more about this guy. Okay, so it's not a planetary society plug, but recently, my friend who is an artist, Porter MacDonald here in Tucson. He and I started this independent website called Rocket Gut, and I published two essays there,

and he's doing some art for them. And these are kind of stories that do not fit into, essentially they don't fit into the stuff I write for Planetary Society, or they're a little more out there. One of them's a science fiction story. Anyway, we're going to keep posting new stuff there. He's working on this comic right now called Cairns in Space, that we're going to post there.

And it's essentially about this literal fat cat capitalist dude who starts a space transportation company. So weird. And this monkey, yeah. And this monkey who is an intern. And the job of the monkey intern is to go up and change the diapers on the space tourists in space. So it's like this crazy messed up comic. But Porter is so proud of it, and I've seen the first issue of it that he did, and we're going to release him later this fall.

So, yeah, if you... Glad you guys responded to the diaper change. I've been digging the art. I've been reading along, and I've been digging the art. So I'm excited for the new realm of art that I get to experience. Yes. Yeah, I have a... We have a piece now that we just finished.

I have a piece and he did some art for it about the International Space Station transition where basically I rant about the International Space Station a little bit and he did some artwork for it. So I hope to have that out next week actually. So it'll be out there on the Twitter sphere. So thanks for the plug opportunity. That's great. Jake, you got some plugs? I feel like I've been gone for so long that you might be working on a whole new project. Yeah, so it's called running my house. I was going to say maybe it's not. It's my whole whole life right now.

Well, I mean, there should be a Weimarians episode next week. And I have the interview. It's whether I can edit it or not. So look for that, I guess. Yeah. That's it, man. Cool. Well.

Yeah. We didn't really do email, but we didn't really get any either. I looked and it's like, yeah, not much. Well, I'm sure we'll get email from this one because we had a lot of hot takes that I'm sure people will not be very happy with. So. and I'm sure that Jim Brydenstein who was definitely listening

was J. Z? Yeah, J.B. Shout out. He's going to be like, what's with this asshole calling me a vanilla guy? That's that guy. He's going to tweet it. Yeah.

See you, everybody. Great. Okay. Goodbye. All right. One, two, three, four, five. Five, three, two, one, into the best. I clicked into the window. But I clicked on the area that is the outro music.

Maybe I'll just leave it like that. That was abrupt as hell, man. You're just like, got to see it. I meant to focus, but I landed in the hit area.