Off-Nominal - 163 - COTS of JSC (with John Conafay)

Episode Date: August 16, 2024

Jake and Anthony are joined by John Conafay, founder of Integrate, to talk about what they’ve been up to lately, his time at SmallSat, all the space news of late, our bizarre JSC theories, and probably a review of Salt Lake City favorites in advance of the conferences’s move next year.TopicsOff-Nominal - YouTubeEpisode 163 - COTS of JSC (with John Conafay) - YouTubeEpisode 139 - Sourdough Software Starter - Off-NominalIntegrateSmall Satellite Conference | SmallSatNASA pushes Starliner return decision to late August - SpaceNewsCrypto entrepreneur buys Crew Dragon flight - SpaceNewsfram2: First Human Spaceflight To Earth’s Polar RegionsNASA requests details on potential VIPER partnerships - SpaceNewsIntuitive Machines seeks to take over NASA’s VIPER lunar rover - SpaceNewsVIPER Rover Partnership Opportunity: Request for Information - NASA ScienceNASA payload to fly on first Blue Origin lunar lander mission - SpaceNewsLockheed Martin to acquire Terran Orbital - SpaceNewsFollow JohnJohn Conafay (@JConafay) / XIntegrate (@integrate_co) / XFollow Off-NominalSubscribe to the show! - Off-NominalSupport the show, join the DiscordOff-Nominal (@offnom) / TwitterOff-Nominal (@[e-mail]) - Spacey SpaceFollow JakeWeMartians Podcast - Follow Humanity's Journey to MarsWeMartians Podcast (@We_Martians) | TwitterJake Robins (@JakeOnOrbit) | TwitterJake Robins (@[e-mail]) - Spacey SpaceFollow AnthonyMain Engine Cut OffMain Engine Cut Off (@WeHaveMECO) | TwitterMain Engine Cut Off (@[e-mail]) - Spacey SpaceAnthony Colangelo (@acolangelo) | TwitterAnthony Colangelo (@[e-mail]) - jawns.club 🐘Off-Nominal MerchandiseOff-Nominal Logo TeeWeMartians Shop | MECO Shop

DLS and go for main engine, start. Hello, Jake, it is... Hello. I'm still here. I'm still on the show. It hasn't happened yet. We're still here. I'm still here. Your family's eyes has not increased yet. Not yet. We're still actively trying to figure out who Anthony replacements are.

We're discussing potentially inviting an Australian journalist named Anthony Colangelo to sit in for me on one of the shows because he thought that would be funny. A lot of plans and work. But we're here back with John Conifay and Walter. If we can get Walter, right? And Walter seems to be sleeping or something. He's napping as he always is. Look at that. Look at that. Oh, my gosh. You're fresh out of SmallSat, so I feel like we have to talk about that.

There's some things to talk about about small set. There are a lot of things to talk about. And some heart-breaking, some exciting, you know. Some heart-breaking about it. Yeah. Why else I'm here? Just not. Logan, right? Yeah, sad about where it's going to be next year?

Is that what it is? Yeah, yeah. I'll change your mind on that. I got some recommendations I can turn the corner for you in Salt Lake. I did, like, I trust the Salt Lake or the, the small set people 100%, that they're going to keep the vibe, that they're going to make it awesome. But I also love Logan. Really? I have never had a bad meal in Logan.

And I've had papoosa's. I've had. They just opened this Shabu Shabu restaurant that on the outside did not look like the most inviting. But then it was sushi, Shabu Shabu, and Hot Pot. And we took a customer there the first night and we ordered, I think, maybe 18 pounds of food. And that's why Walter's still napping. exactly I just slept through the next day of meetings from

Meetswets, yeah So good You're all right, Jake? You're doing all right down there? I am still recovering. This is now like, so three weeks of shows in a row where I've been sick And eight weeks total because I was on vacation stuff. But man, I don't know.

I can't shake this one. So it's been, this is how I can tell I'm getting older is that I can't just like have a cold for three days and then just like go run a marathon after. Yeah, I can't do that anymore. Oh, man. But I'm here. I'm alive.

I feel like I sound better. I don't know if you could from last week. Last week was bad, but I feel like I'm. You sound fine. Okay. What are you going to destroy your voice with? Did you bring a special drink? No, I'm trying to take it easy still.

So I got a non-alcoholic today. But I made something nice, right? I made a no chatta, right? Nice little, uh, little, uh, little, uh, A little cinnamon on the top there. You can see. You're big on the little sprinkle, the sprinkle tops. Well, it's all about, this is all show business, Anthony.

Come on. The details, the charm. Yeah. All right. Logan. Yeah. What do you got? So salty about Logan.

That's amazing. I'm still making it. I'm making a genitonic as we speak right now. Okay. So I've cut my lime. My whole office smells like lime. It's great. This is that I'm on the last.

core of this ghost bomber gin that I've had on the show before. This is from like somewhere near Pittsburgh, in Pittsburgh. Look at that. In Pittsburgh. If you're on the pre-show, if you're in the Off-Nomit Discord, you got a great theory about something going on in Pittsburgh. So I'll leave that hanging out there for people that want to check out off-nom.com slash Discord. I didn't record it.

$5 a month. Unless you ask me, I guess. $5 a month and you can get access to our unedited conspiracy theories in the pre-show. Shocker, they're all about Johnson Space Center. we basically have like the jSC info wars pre-show in most of many cases yeah exactly yeah that's what are you got it's early out where you are and you're in the office i don't know yeah i don't leave you anyway so we've got we have plenty of uh plenty of class dollar non-alcoholic this has gotten me through many a space symposium because it's the only non-alcoholic drink

there and it i'm pretty sure from yeah from in colorado all of colorado I'm pretty sure from like noon to 2 a.m. You have to be having something in your Yeah, yeah, yeah. So this is a good one. That's good. I'm excited. I didn't follow all the rules at Space Symposium.

No one told me there was a dress code, so I just showed up like me and nobody talked about it to me the whole time. So I think the rules are suggested there anyway. I didn't, I truly did not know there was a dress code. I just thought it was like, if you're meeting with government officials, you should probably be in a suit. And if you're not, go with what you're,

you know, what you're, that's funny. Yeah. Yeah. All right, where are we starting? We got,

there's a lot going on these days. We, let's start, let's hear about small sat itself. Like, oh, were there good? What would you pick up? What was going on there?

Um, it was good. The thing I love about small sad, it's like a quarter to half students. every year. So you get that non-jaded, like really, really electric energy. And then we had our intern, over the shoulder, intern, I don't know, Enez, join us. And I'm pretty sure she drove more traffic to our booth than any of us did, full stop. We had our sales dude and, our sales dude. Did she have one of those signs that they spin?

Or was there a waxy waving inflatable arm flailing tube man? Good investment, yeah. He was out like actually, you know, running people down saying, hey, have you heard the gospel of integrate? And it was pretty cool. We should have gotten her one of those signs, but she's smarter than all of us. So it would have been a waste. Well, you could hire us to do that. I think we would be perfect for roadside attraction style.

things at a conference. That's about the level of our talent. Yeah. It's usually what we're doing in the conference halls anyway. Like, let's be real. What is the control? I would need a sign. I need a sign that I can do it with one hand, though,

because I have to have that little drink in my hand. Yeah, just for I. I see it was a very fun conference hall for walking around and getting into hijinks. Wait, what was this one? Just the IAC and D.C. Oh, yeah, yeah. There was just, it was a good year for, for trollable content, right?

There was a B.E4 out there, a huge Antares display, the Blue Moon mockup. There was a lot of good content that was right for. That's right. It was. Oh, my God. Remember that? How that aged. Yeah, yeah.

Go to IAC and DC. I had to have gone to I. You were there. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There was just a lot of good content in that. in that exhibition hall. I think it meshed with my satellite memories that year. So it was like, because they were back in COVID.

Yeah, it was like the last minute for the end of the world. Yeah. So satellite was really the last minute. Yeah. Okay. I was like, I remember being it satellite and they cut it down that Thursday or cut it off that Thursday. And it was like, okay, I guess I'm going to go grab some beer.

I remember judging you all at satellite that you shouldn't have been there. Like, oh, that doesn't seem like a good idea right now. Yeah, it was that close that I was even on the beat of like, well, that seems like I would have probably skipped that one. Yeah, that's, uh, that is not at all unfounded now. No, even then it was, it was pretty, uh, yeah, it was pretty clear. I did, I'm not going to talk about the travel that I did right before that to Japan, South Korea, Singapore, Bali.

You were in border. Yeah. It was, we, there was, you kind of circled the epicent. there just kind of really we checked it out yeah you know check it all out uh the yeah there was a there was a hotel situation that might have been had like three levels closed off uh in singapore yeah wow dark times well that sounds worse than logan Logan can't be that bad oh i love Logan i love Logan's great outside of the fact that i heard some of the hotels are charging like 900 bucks like straight up price gouging the week of um yikes but they dorms and things like this that you can

stay in we just what's so hard about having to plan 11 months ahead of time to to find a you know find a place to smoke that's not a three-hour drive away you know let me let me vibe check small sat generally with you real quick because we were kind of talking about this earlier i had jeffausen bico today and we sort of got into this regarding the lockyed martin turn orbital situation I'm curious to vibe check the small set industry on both sides, the payload side and the launch side. Because small launch, we've all been talking for years about how there's all these new small launch competitors, but no one's really doing anything yet except Rocket Lab. And on the payload side, it's a little bit sluggish, I would say. I would use the word sluggish.

I don't know. I mean, they've launched what, six times now? As much as Falcon Heavy, right, Jake? Doesn't that your fact? Yeah. Yeah, they're Falcon Heavy and Firefly, same launch pace, yeah. Sluggish. I mean, it's too loud to get these.

I don't know. It takes a little while to get these. They have long gaps. They have long gaps between things, is my contention with Firefly. And ABL, I have no idea what to make of the ABL situation. That just seems to be a bad news bears series of unfortunate events kind of thing. So I don't think small, and obviously Virgin orbit gone, Rocket Lab moving on from small launch as soon as they can, relatively bailed entirely on small launch as soon as they could.

So I think the launch side is in a weird spot. And then the payloads, you know, the whole, like, giant constellations were going to buy many payloads or many buses off of these different providers, never materialized in that way. They all went in-house. So is that vibe noticeable at the conference, or do you feel like everyone's still confident in what they're doing? I mean, if it wasn't noticeable at the conference, it sure is hell noticeable with this.

this acquisition at what just over half the price that was offered six months ago? I think it was a fourth the price, like on the share side, on the share price. Oh, on the share price. Okay, I thought it was like $800. It was taken over all the debt, but they offered, four months ago they offered $1 a share, and today was $0.25 a share. Got it, yeah. And the stock was at $0.40. Yes.

Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah. That's not. That doesn't seem cool. But I mean, there's still a bunch of constellations. It doesn't necessarily mean, you know, maybe we don't have these absolutely absurd valuations that we're going out before. Because, I mean, some of these companies being worth $10 billion or, you know, whatever we're getting up to in Zerp era 2021.

Like, when everybody's saying, oh, no, they did a down round. It's like, of course, of course they did. no coming back from doing it down. I didn't realize them around. Compared to 2021. Yeah, it's like you look at every chart about funding over the past 10 years and it's like, and then back to normal, like the very, very, if you just remove 21, it would have been a very linear, you know, slow increase and incline.

But so, I don't know. I think 2021, as we all know, was wild enough that. Can't take it too for granted. And it doesn't take a whole lot of satellites to make an entire company do fairly well. You know, if it's 36 or 260, and then we're also realizing that replenishment is absolutely a thing. So you don't necessarily have to deal with the mega constellations to be competitive. But I don't know. What do you think?

I don't know. I just, I don't know. That was just generally my question was that I feel like the, the story. lines that we all were talking up five years ago didn't come to fruition the same way. And I guess you're right about like replenishment. We didn't talk about it in that way. There's weird times where it's come up, right? Like the one web virgin orbit agreement was like, we'll replace one satellite at a time per plane. And that was never going to be a thing. Like that just didn't make sense, right? And that was, we're going to launch these whole planes elsewhere and then replace like one out of the

whole, you know, eight on that plane. That's weird. But you're right that there is more of a of a, the lifespans of these satellites were realizing what they actually are or what they should be because of tech cycles. So yeah, you're right in that those are more frequent than like geostationary satellites. So that does change your sales cycle

a bit. This might just be relentless, some might call it reckless optimism. You know, that it's not, that the music hasn't stopped. From a founder? What? From a founder? Who? What? Somebody

I was just reading, have you read Kara Swisher's Burnbook? Oh yeah. No. Oh, yeah. Like the spiciest of spice book about Silicon Valley. It's like one of the greatest things I've ever, ever read, honestly. And her ending is just like a master class and finishing out a book and saying like just with two fingers in the air walking away from an industry or into an industry like walking into a burning building with two fingers in the air.

I don't know how to describe it. There was a reason I brought that up. Oh, post-tragic. There's like this idea of post-tragic where it's like pre-tragic is, you're so relentlessly optimistic that everything will turn out right and everybody's completely great in all this, and I'm probably butchering this. Or then she goes into post-tragic people.

So the founder archetype is usually pre-tragic, like the Sergei Bryns and all of this where they're like, no, everything's going to be perfect for into, eternity and all this. And then the post-tragic people are like, no, it absolutely isn't. But I really, really believe we can make a change if we try hard enough. And I feel like I'm more on the post-tragic curve,

but I'm definitely sounding a little pre-tragic right now. We're just like, it'll be fine. Jeez. Yeah. Okay. Right. A little grim. Jake just scared of small satellites, apparently.

It's just not. If they're not, if they're not, if they're not, you're like, screw them. I'm out, you know? I do care, but I think, I don't know, I think that even in, in that space and like planetary space, there's, there's something that we can do with small satellites. And I feel like that potential has not been fully tapped or even explored. But, yeah, I mean, the real question, though, is like what you're trying to get at is that, like, is it happening and what's the vibe? Are people, like, pursuing that?

Or is it kind of, like, is it kind of tragic? Are people kind of not feeling that anymore? I don't know. We'll see. Yeah. NASA needs to have more like 50 million dollar planetary emissions. They need to get on that better, I think. Yeah.

Beat the room, man. Use all that viper money. Yeah, that's at least one and a half of those. I'm just going to poke at that. This transition to private industry, like, hey, we built it and we spent $470 million to do it, but we're just going to hand it over to somebody else that might be better funded. I don't get it entirely. Is your question like comma comma or dot-da-dot what?

Is that your question? Like what? Precisely. That was the perfect clip. It was like, I don't. And then like dead silence for the most pregnant boss. Get it. I have a couple theories.

if we're getting into this, okay? You pull the abort cord when you feel like this is going to harm customer sales, and you being next to this theory. All right. Here's the thing that I didn't know when they announced the cancellation of Viper. I love that we're going here. They said we're canceling Viper because it's a really huge budget, and we all said that sounds accurate based on what we know.

And their expectation was we're going to find more issues when we go through testing. What they didn't say was they were still going to do all the testing. It was a week later, somebody who's at a conference and said, yeah, we just passed vibration and acoustic testing, and we're sending it into thermal vac testing, and all the components already passed thermal vac testing, and we'll be done in October, and that is still accurate per the latest release. They are going to be done all the testing by October, and they have, as of yet, found no issues, and based on what was said at that conference, I forget who the individual was, they

don't really expect to. and that is a bizarre thing that they left out of the cancellation announcement. That is a bizarre thing that I had not even heard or I didn't even know about. Is this like, I mean, there's there are contracting opportunities and ways of transferring government intellectual property to private markets for modernization and things like this. I mean, SBIRs and all these things. Is this like a, hmm, let's see if we can push the limit on that or create a new contracting method or new licensing? Yeah, like what would be the, I just, how are they allowed to do this? I don't know.

Jake, should I go 100 miles an hour on this or should I take, put off the gas a little bit on my next half of the theory? Well, the next part of your theory depends on some things that haven't happened yet. There may be likely what haven't happened yet, which is, which is, that's where it gets dice. Okay, this part of my theory does not, which is this mission had grown so big compared to where it started that it was going to be a billion dollar, if you include the lander, a billion dollar mission. And they put this very expensive, important rover. They're like hanging the future of the Artemis program on this rover going and finding volatiles, that they, but they had it in a program that they've expressly marketed as, we're 100% sure, not all of these are going to work. Like, that is the marketing thing of clips is for shots on goal. That whole thing that I think Jake might argue how much they've stuck to that.

But that was the idea. It was like, and in a year where we've had three funny moon landers, seems like a good take that there was going to be some chaos there. So they put this very important mission on the first flight of a big lander from a company that hasn't landed on the moon before. And I think that they worked themselves into a corner there. And they had to figure out how to not do that. How do they not put themselves in a situation where crashing this,

$600 million rover on the lunar surface is completely apocalyptic to the entire Clips program at large. And the only way was... And Artemis, I guess. Pull this record and say... By their definition, right? By their classification. But to your point, John, like, the RFI is take over this rover, but the restrictions, if you read the RFI, it's like, fly it exactly like we were going to. You can't take it apart. You have to fly it to the moon. You have to leave the data open. You have to give us insight in the mission. The constraints are basically fly it as we would, but pay for the rest of it and figure out how to get it to the moon. This feel, I mean, it feels kind of similar to another very tricky situation we're in on orbit right

now as far as we need to divest ourselves with this because at this point, we've backed herself so far into a corner. And this is all speculation and all this, but I won't say it, but I think we know what we're talking about. It's just like, if something does go wrong, we can't, it can't full stop. But it also just sounds like the more and more you talk about it and say it in this way, it sounds like a really genius public-private partnership in a different way that we haven't thought of before, sort of. I know. This is like giving a lot of...

That's a stretch. That's a stretch. I think it's NASA trying to figure out the only way they could possibly land this thing on the moon without its... It's crashing into lunar surface being their fault

and something that they would get asked about in Congress. Because if it... I'll throw this kicker out there with this headline this morning that Intuitive Machines wants to take over the Viper rover and fly it on a Nova D in 2027

instead of an astrobotic Griffin. This is the crazy part, right? Yeah. Yeah. If NASA, if this happens, let's just run this theory of this being the case. Intuitive machines and a bunch of companies take it over and they fly it on a NOVAD in 2027. And it doesn't go well, NASA gets asked about it. They say, we canceled it four years ago.

This was totally their own volition. But if it goes well, they get a rover that gets all their data back because that was their requirement of this RFI. I mean, this goes, yeah. Clips is amazing. Right, right. Yeah, look at what we did. Yeah, that sounds like a perfectly reasonable. and almost like industry-like move to make, which I'm kind of like, hell, yeah, and I'm going to

like, hell, yeah, great choice. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, the taxpayers are going to be pissed if it fails flat out, you know? Like, it's, I mean, as many taxpayers does actually know this is going on outside of our bubble, you know, but the headlines would be, you know, another government-funded, you know, crash on the moon. I don't know. I think it's pretty... When you frame it like that, I think it's a pretty smart choice.

It's funny, because my framing it like that was not to convince you that this is 40 chess from NASA, but to convince you that this is a good way to steal a rover payload from Astrobotic and put it on an Intuitive Machines lander. That is what this feels like to me. Huh. So those are the two options. The two options are 40 chess or a great heist. Do you think it's like a lobbying move, essentially?

Again, we're an unfounded plan at this point. Yeah. The conspiracy part is ask yourself what city intuitive machines is based in and then who works where. So right. Oh, gotcha. Gotcha. We have,

JSC is our Illuminati on this podcast. That is where we've landed. I think, I think it's a good chance that it's a really spectacular marketing move from intuitive machines, frankly. I mean, they've got a lot of goodwill,

right now and once you put something out in the press like that, who did put that out? Was it? Yeah. They talked about it on an earnings call. Intuitive machines, that is. Now, listen, to my point earlier, if this thing is going through testing and it's already doing great through testing,

then you might look at this and be like, there's not a lot of money. This is a good fixer-upper of a project because there's not a lot of money. It's got good bones. You know, like you can do all the weird house-buying terminology. here. If what you have to do is figure out how to adapt it to your lander, but the testing's fine otherwise, then maybe it's all right.

It could also be a, okay, I'm really stretching this a lot, but we could call it a success for the COTS missions where are essentially saying, hey, look at how well private industry did with all this. We now have, you know, prove positive that maybe NASA building hardware specifically isn't the most perfect thing in the world. It's a new definition of COTS. It's commercial companies buying stuff off the shelf of Johnson Space Center. Oh, wait, what's like commercial?

Yeah, yeah. That is amazing. Cots and JSC. And everybody, that was John Connoffey, NASA, P-A-O at the Johnson Space Center. was it a great nothing to do with NASA at all I was going to do a worse segue which was if you had to organize a bunch of hardware arriving in the right order John to make this rover actually fly to the moon what would you buy to do that

why integrate of course I was actually early on before we got down my weird conspiracy rabbit hole I wanted to I wanted to ask you about what your approach to small set was as a as a product. Because the last time we talked to you was a couple months ago. It was not necessarily early days, but earlier. And, you know, where are you at now? What was your approach to going into a conference in this way?

Yeah. So I think, you know, we've, so for whoever doesn't know, we're building program management software for the world's most ambitious machines. And I want to put a pin in that and ask you about some branding opinions that you both have. because we've got some we're working with some stuff we're going to workshop some stuff on this show that's I like that

we're going to workshop PR workshop yep exactly but we're building software for hardware essentially to be able to collaborate as easily externally or with external stakeholders because hardware is fundamentally

collaborative as you can with internal stakeholders and other software and we got to add a few logos there. Not the JSC one. Hopefully we'll still be able to eventually at some point at a NASA logo after this conversation.

But yeah, so we've kind of expanded outside of just being space focused into automotive shipping a whole bunch of other things. but space is still a really, really popular vertical for what we originally built us for. So we went in and frankly it was very much like we're software. What the hell could we possibly do with a booth that will attract? The really inspiring table with a black tablecloth on it and then just like black and then like winter.

Like winkly black tablecloths and stars. Yeah, stars and satellites behind us. Too sad people sitting there with pamphlets. Yeah, exactly. Do, am I allowed to? Intern with the screen sign. Yeah, you can send me a link in the,

oh, you can screen share. I think you can do it. Let's do it. I think it might be able to. But this is the... Jake's tried this once. I don't know if anyone else has, so good luck with this.

I don't know what the hell's about to happen. So we, so we took the... Wait, did you do it? Okay, what do you do? Not yet. What do you do after, what do you do after a mission

or after a successful like hardware test campaign, you go to a diner or a dive bar or something like this, right? Hold on, I have to make your screen a guest. I don't know, John, you're in uncharted territory. Hold on. Let me figure out how to make this work. I don't know what's going on. It's there for now.

I'm going to add a new scene. Oh, this is going great. This is so good. This is amazing what's happening right here. Where is my button? This is awesome. This is so good, guys. It's the best shot.

D-Scene source camera. Hold on. Guess three. Did that work? It's out of the bottom. What's it doing over there? That's a doing over there. I don't know what's going on.

There, keep this one. No, that's not even the one. Keep this one for a second. There is. Okay. Cool. So we, for, so our booth was a diner booths. Because we're like, after hardware testing campaign or anything like this,

you want to go, I don't know, have some pancakes and beers or something because we've been up late doing whatever. So we decided to go with that, which is kind of one brand for our brand, which is this little sort of punk-ish, whatever you want to call it. So that's what we did, and people loved it. People just would come hang out and sit and felt comfortable, and the actual demo environment worked out super well. And it stood out, like a sore thumb is a very, very polite way of saying how much

it stood out because we had this bright neon thing that I was going to start flashing at some point if it ever got slow at the booths just but also it might have been a coup or some of our neighbors would have just like ripped it down frankly is that just like a picture of bricks or what are we what are we looking at in the background? A picture of bricks. Yeah it's a picture of bricks. That is such a good analogy for software. It's amazing. A picture of bricks. Yeah. Amazing. It's yeah, exactly. So, yeah, the strategy was essentially to go make sure we had as many demos and as solid a demo set up as possible and not have to run between the 16 different buildings that we have in every small set previously. So we just got to sit there, give all of our demos very easily.

And while Inez ran around and brought a bunch of students and other companies to the booth. great. I don't know if it's a strategy so much as we showed up and I think we had a cool booth. I mean, that is a strategy, right? Like that would totally be my strategy of showing up at one of these places and being like, I'm just here to hang out. Like, meet me, you know? Come on, peeps.

We may or may not have had had non-alcoholic beers under the booth because people were like, this is like speak easy and just hand them one and be like, excellent, excellent. All vibes. Booth Plama's vibes. I don't know if we're supposed to because it was dry campus and you still get IDed for non-alcoholic beer for whatever reason. But it worked out. That's one of my favorite little jokes you do is it's answering the question,

what feels illegal but isn't and it's driving with a non-alcoholic beer in the cup holder of your car? Just kicking it back at an intersection. Same energy. I wonder if you would get, I still don't understand why you get carded for it. It's Utah. Yeah. Well, no, I mean, I get carded for this in Seattle, and Seattle's like on par was.

Really? Wow. And many, many other places as far as the drinking culture. Maybe the reason Jake just stated that it looks pretty bad. So if a kid walked up and bought a non-alcoholic beer, they'd be like, that looks bad. Actually, that, yeah. Is that illegal? Can kids buy?

Not in Utah. I think you're like in Utah and not in Washington, I guess. Yeah. I think that is, Jake, I think kids buying non-agolic beers is the candy cigarettes of drinking. It is. We don't want to start this. Yeah. But I bought candy cigarettes when I was a kid.

Well, you did. Yeah, of course you did, because you're now old. Because I'm old now. There was no law. There was no rules back then. Candy cigarettes were actually candy. This is just like, let's just wean you on to the bruise. Yeah, yeah.

It's as if candy cigarettes tasted like cigarettes, not like candy. And you smoke in. Like initial, you know, why does. It's vaping. Objectively horrible taste is what you're looking for. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, exactly. Cheese.

Okay. All right. And then you're taking it's tangents. I love this. Yeah. So, Taryn I'm curious about Taryn

what you're taking on Taryn Orbital and Lachita's. Oh, I was We're all the way back here, man. Previously on Off Nominal. I love this. I was, I mean, I was like, I thought this happened, I thought this already happened, basically. I was like, whatever.

I wrote this off my brain when they were 90% of Teren Orbiter's orbit. I always say orbiter. Terran Orbiter. Terran orbitals. Because Terran had the Ravada constellation deal. But every time they updated anyone on it, they were like, it's not here yet. We're not even getting money for it yet.

We got like $10 million or something. But it's a $2.4 billion contract. Yeah. So the only thing they were working on was Lockheed stuff. Yeah. I have this vibe about ABL that Lockheed bought 50-some launches from ABL. and that's pretty much all we've heard about ABL. And I'm like, is Lockheed just hoping this becomes their new launch market?

I think you viewed it yourself and you were young. Yeah, that was intentional. Oh, gosh. John, didn't you sell those 50 launches? I have to like go back in time now. I did not. I can't take credit for that. I would have wanted to take credit for that.

But that was the founders for sure. So good. Now let me, let me bring up. all the other companies you've worked at. Let's talk about astronomers and Spire Global and Spaceflight. Well, we can talk about Space Flight. I mean, there was Firefly now, which sounds very much like the euphemism for death.

They're with the Fireflies now. Okay, so Firefly, though, is similar to my ABL theory there is, what is the overrunner on Firefly just becoming the Northup Grumman, launch? I was going to say, what's the overrunder on the DOD buying Firefly? Just buying. Didn't they already, Jake? Isn't that the question? We're going to commercial off the shelves.

Don't put just buying companies wholesale now. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. The Cots acquisition. Yeah. So I think it's just this whole idea of, we're actually talking about that's in his last day tomorrow. And so we took her out the lunch and we were talking about this overla.

launch. But this whole idea of strategic capital in hardware specifically, like software, there are probably some, some things that look non-threatening in contracts that companies could do for

software companies and strategic investment and things like this as strategic investors. Investors to get better control, excuse me. But with hardware, it's very it feels very insidious because you you have an absolute limit to what you can produce up to a specific scale.

And if you get overly weighted to one specific customer on that scale of production or manifest or satellite building, whatever it is, you're just kind of, I mean, there's potential to be just led around by the color there. You're locked in a lot harder than the software world. Yeah, physics is a pain in the ass. You can't, unless you expand and really, really get over your heels, which is the number one way to accrue a lot of debt and then be acquired for a quarter of what, you know, and this is all speculation. I hope for that.

I have no clue. But that's the idea, that's why I want to bring it back to the Taroni-Norbital thing. And the idea of strategic capital was regard to these because is it, it's strategic for the primes? Yeah. Is it strategic? For the company, the root company that's like looking for it. Yeah. Right.

And then, and in your world, that's never, that isn't, like, when you try to go sell to a customer, software's really weird to people that don't do software. It's super weird. It works totally different than hardware. It's unconscrained. It's fungible in a way that hardware. Yeah. Hardware has to work up against the laws of physics.

which are defined and we find out about them occasionally. Software has to work on the stack of every piece of software that's come before it. When you run something today on a server or a phone or whatever, you're using code that was written six developers before you in terms of a lifespan, right? Like, I write a bunch of iOS apps in my life. I used code that was written before I was alive at the root level, right? And it's this the sourdose starter. I think that was the last time you had you on, right?

And we talked about this. So that's really weird, and nobody can quite quantify why that's different. But on the customer side that you're going to, the stuff they're buying from you could be as strategic and meaningful to their internal workflow as the hardware that they're buying from elsewhere. But they don't look at it. They look at it, I don't know this. You can tell me where I'm wrong, but they look at it more like, I'm buying a thing

that we're going to use now, but we might migrate in the future, where that's a much harder decision on the hardware side. Is that accurate? accurate? Yeah, that's totally true. The main reason people are buying integrate as opposed to a number of other things is because they want to be able to give a really, really seamless experience with their customers and have like a custom portal for their customers to interact. So it's a little bit more sticky and a little bit more ingrained in processes there because if you have to shift your external stakeholders to a new system, it's going to be, a little bit more frustrating. But yeah, it's still, I mean, they could, you could always set something up if somebody builds something like we have,

which nobody has, but that's cool. But the point is that it is easier to migrate data at the end of the day than it is to migrate atoms. That's not a thing. Always have that option, whereas if you're in it for 2.8 billion, just whatever random number. you're in it. I mean, you're in debt.

You have to have those facilities. There's also no way of getting around human resource cost. Like you can't outsource building these highly specialized and highly specialized or designed things for the most part because of ITAR restrictions and all those things as well. So it's, yeah. It's like tooling and stuff, you mean? Like you're buying. That is actually funny to think about it.

Like no one, when they're going to contract with Integrate is like, we're also paying you to develop your own text editor that will be the tooling that produces the software that we buy from you, right? But in the other world, it's like, no, we made all these machines that make the machine that was specific to your, I mean, I think like OneWeb had that Airbus deal, where then Airbus wanted to go sell these satellite buses to everybody else. But it's like they're still shaped like the One Web buses because that's the machine they bought. Whereas a text editor, it's just a text editor. You can type something different into it. Exactly. Yeah.

yeah so it's very strange I'm really curious what now it's got me thinking of thinking of like strategic investments in software and if there is any kind of way to wag the dog with that and what strategies large companies but anyway not the purpose of the show but

curious I mean hell yeah it is because that's like half of my life so let's keep that's go into it I'm very relevant to my life recently so the last like year I do a little actually I'm getting Jake involved in this a little agency crew that we've got called Bynworks.

One of our biggest projects was an internal software tool to manage a warehouse, just North the Philly here. And it was like inventory management, task management, hooks in with all these different APIs and accounting software and all this. But it was because they had churned through four different SaaS apps over the previous four years because none of them worked the way that this company works. And they're a company that's at a weird scale where they're big enough to afford legitimate software, but small enough to not need, they don't have like eight warehouses and robots.

They just have one warehouse and a couple of people. So that's this weird middle ground where this customer approach made sense. But the way they looked at it was this, we can quantify how much more efficient this will make us. And we might be able to find other customers shaped like us because we know there's dozens of us, right? That like maybe we can do a similar thing. So I think in your world, right, like if there's a customer that sees how much more efficient that workflow can make them and they can quantify it and then they're able to see how, you know, maybe not in your particular example, but like if Lockheed was making a strategic investment in Terran software, like maybe they get a piece of that company.

So the second customer they sell it to Lockheed's getting in on, right? And it's not only made their internal process more efficient, but it's made them their initial investment money back over the course of two or three or four sales. So I don't think it's entirely different because what is this strategic investment in? You can look at it for the Terenorbital case. Like, they were strategically making sure that their big supplier on big programs didn't go out of business and disappear tomorrow. Yeah.

Is that all they were hoping? Or were they hoping that they would then go and they would make money off the Ravada network's satellite buses at someday? Yeah. Or could it be a hedge bet on both sides of the equation, you know? Right. We're securing our supply chain, but we're also maybe getting payout on the back end. Exactly. Yeah.

So the question really is that is which prime is going to buy integrate. It's what we're trying to figure out here, right? Oh, yeah. Or us, Jake. If someone thinks our podcast is making them more efficient at the work they do. Yeah, I've actually got the paperwork right over here. Nice. Yeah, it never would be super interesting.

I love that the audience does not know when you hit the mute button, but I see it. So it's just politely trolling me and everyone else thinks their internet died for a second. Jeez. No, no. But he does TikTok lip readers to figure out what you said, yeah. Everyone got mad at me, Jake, when I tried to make a couple of TikTok clips for this show. Yeah, you got big shit when he did that. Yeah. That one was just so clippable. That show was so clippable.

Wait, what happened? I used this, I tried some stuff, John. You know, you ever try some stuff and people go, oh, I don't know if I like that? And some people aren't, aren't down with it. What happened was Mark Pellor of ULA came on and was absolutely hilarious and in ways that Jake and I never expected. And we got several clippable moments that were perfect for social media. So I said, hell, I'll try a couple of tools out and see if this automation can, make me more efficient in the day and age of 2024.

And everybody said that it was too TikTok for them. And then I didn't care about that, to be honest. Anyone that told me that, I didn't actually care. I just got extra busy because I'm almost having a second kid, so I had to finish a bunch of stuff. So I just haven't done it. I'm going to clip John's hilarious segments out of this show, obviously. So we'll see how that goes, Jake.

I think you forgot that our demographic is like middle-aged white guys who don't use TikTok. Our current demographic, Jake. I'm only in it for the growth. Yeah, yeah. The avatar of our demo is just, imagine me is what it is, right? Literally the three months. Yeah, I should have wore my glasses today.

White guy, glasses in a beard. Yeah, yeah. This is a very diverse show we have right now, as you can tell. Oh, man. Yeah. Yeah. This went places. It did.

What didn't we ran about yet? We ran it about more things of this show that I thought we would. Yeah. I was excited to talk about software features, John, but you're all in on this, digging these JSC conspiracies out of us. Oh, yeah, software features. Yep, we got them. Absolutely.

We got some of those. I am really, really stoked on this, what is it, Jam 4? We're in the whole NIST 800-171, compliance world, which is super, super fun for being able to hold CUI data and all this. I'm just talking about like why this is on my brain. So we're deploying JAMP and all right now. Yeah. It's like government compliance for government things.

And so all I can think of is JAMP, which is like mobile device management. Yeah. But what's the mission that the crypto or not crypto, the Bitcoin person? Oh, Fram. Fram. Fram. Fram. Fram. Okay, that's just my pure dyslexia.

Got it. Cool, cool, cool, cool. Sam, Bram. Same Mark. Yeah. Two Marf. And then we're one consonant away from Spaceball's reference there. The dog's name was Barf, right? I don't remember. Spaceballs?

Spaceballs. It's been so long. I haven't watched that show or movie. and I don't know less than watch it. Yeah. Someone in the chat will tell us. We'll see. Someone in the chat was worth with the dog's name was. Are you in on this mission though?

Are you, are you supportive of this polar flight? Absolutely. Dude got in early on something that became wildly popular, made billions, and spent the last five years traveling around just doing whatever he wants. And now I want to go to space. And that's possible. That's like the, coolest, like, you can get it, man. And he's just taking a bunch of his travel buddies. It's like,

yeah, I met this person on the Incan Trail, so decided they'd be a lot of fun to have along. And like, no ideological, philosophical, we're doing this for the good of humanity to prove that exploration is the way for, you know, like all that crap. It's just like, yeah, I just kind of wanted to go to space. So I got a bunch of my traveling buddies along with me. It was perfect. Did you ever wonder what Antarctica looks like from space? Me too, I'm going. Like, yeah, it's by far the most relatable of any commercial space mission, so thus far. Like the most, I synced it with my own eyes, you know, move in the world.

I love it. We were talking about this before the show that the, I didn't know it, we were trying to figure out the crew makeup, because it felt like this guy got really into polar exploration and then made a bunch of money and was like, I'm just going to hire the three people I've been nerdy about and do this. mission. I think in Jake's world, if he made a bunch of money and then hired Dan Carlin to take him on like a World War I tour of Europe. Like, this is the equivalent of that. That's exactly what it would be. You just get like a private Dan Carlin show all through the Ardennes, you know? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. We go camping in the Ardennes. Yeah. Beautiful. I love it. I think it's like

exactly. It feels it just really feels cool to go from okay, we're sending a suborbital flights up every quarter or so. So people are actually getting to see space fairly regularly fairly regularly

and they're able to just buy their ticket to that. And now we're getting to the point where people, like it's not an institution that is putting people into space, but just some guy that I had not necessarily heard of before, you know, no, um, that just decided,

screw it. I want to do that thing that was never accessible ever in the history of humanity before. That's like it feels very special, frankly. I'm, I know Jake has thoughts about these jackets, but I am, I am in on the flight suit polar explorer crossover that's going on here. Oh, that's spectacular. They've got their pickle suits on and, uh, and the bombers or that's a bomber also he is he bought this mission and he is sitting in the window seat

which is distinctly different than all the other versions of this where they are the commander doing like I'm going to be mr. astronaut like this is yeah yeah which also by the way the window is the best seat to buy if you're going to buy a seat on the flight like you want to look at the window on the way up there are two types of people there are two types of people go ahead go ahead bring it on, tall people. There's, no, it's not necessarily... There's normal people and people who have to pee a lot. That's the two types of people.

Okay. You never will sit in a window seat, either of you? I'm a window guy. I'm a window guy. Okay. John, do you're the issue here? I'm a GtFO guy. So I'm like, uh, maybe it was a, I mean, not that you're going to go anywhere on a park.

Yeah, I was just there. You're like just overly prepping for an off-nominal scenario? Hey. Hey. Hey. No, I just, I've noticed personality differences in people that sit in window seats and people that sit in the aisle. And then anybody that chooses the middle may be really snugly, maybe book too late. Yeah, exactly.

Wow, are there people in this world that prefer the middle? Probably. That's terrifying to think about. Hilariously, I... Hilariously, I probably fly middle more than anything else, but because my wife gets the window and we go together, right? But that's it. That's just me being a kind, caring person, you know?

Yeah, yeah. You're like, sure. Listen, on the topic of Utah, if you're ever... I mean, honestly, flying into Logan, or into Salt Lake, I mean, I guess you were not flying over this part based on where you're coming from, but window seat into Salt Lake City is the greatest, because for the hour leading up to arrival, you're just at Mars, you're flying over Mars. Like, that's where you are for an hour, you know?

And don't get me wrong. I don't judge people that do the window thing. Like anybody, it's kind of that, you know, that Kurt Vonnegut life was made for farting around thing when he goes out to buy envelopes. Or it's like, of course I want to go by my own envelopes. It's, you know, I get to see meet babies and new people and see all these colors. I'm like, hell yeah, wonder of life, wonder of flight. Get it.

That's spectacular. But I'm also like, get the hell out of my way if anything goes wrong. I will assist people in the next row. But in the spaceflight world, you're going to sit in the middle seat of Dragon? You're not going to sit over in the window? I would sit in the window there because it's all like there's no, I don't have to climb over people. disturb other people. There's no aisle seat. Yeah, there's no aisle seats. Tell that to

Butch and sunny, Jake, okay? Yeah, they're definitely They're definitely flying the equivalent of the middle of the Dragon. They're getting the bad middle seat. They were the last, they're the sea group of Southwest Airlines. Oh, not anymore, I guess. That's out the window, huh? They're in the middle group of the of the middle section of the wide bodies where they got people on both sides.

Yes, that's exactly the spot. we're supposed to find out what the what the decision is end of this by this weekend right on starlin next week next week the other weekend sometime before september nobody knows it's a while i mean we know that decision is if we knew yeah my my old thing all along has been that they've painted a negative space of like they've never really told us how the people that are currently know on flying back with people would change to yes. They haven't illuminated what data might come in that would flip these individuals to a yes vote. And so that feels just like they're burning out the clock to me.

Yeah. You mean burning out until... Until they just have to tell us what the decision was. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. They're building a flight rationale for the, for not sending them home once, darling. That's what I've been saying. You'd love saying that term.

Flight rationale is a great term. That is a really good term. I don't think I'd heard it before, frankly. Yeah, I don't know. It's a one of those things I don't necessarily want to comment on. Yeah. Fair enough. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah. That is definitely it. I've upgraded, since we talked about this on the show, Jake, should I inform everybody that I've upgraded my Discord. prediction. Oh, yeah, that's right. Star Leonard doesn't fly. I've now put it at Star Leonard flies no earlier than 2027.

I have upgraded from a 2026 date to 2027. Do we think it's going to? I mean, I guess they have to keep it because you need competition. I don't know. See, these things are problematic, right? We never really can see the paperwork behind this. So, do we defend, Jake, you looked into this more. You looked into the money side more.

right? Like we don't we don't we don't they could technically legally back out. As far as I can tell they're like on the hook for the first two flights and then there's like an off ramp. But I don't know if there's like a penalty if they like declined to do that. Or like you know there could be we were postulating like maybe NASA would like convert them to cargo flights or something so that they could still spend the contract but you just use it in a different way or whatever. But yeah, that's the best we. gets us out. And that's because they already have the money for the two, or what?

I think they're just contracted for it, right? I don't know how binding that is, but that's like, like the contract was, we'll buy two with an option for four more. Oh. Gotcha. Yeah. So. Excited to have a new CEO.

Yeah. That's less fun to talk about then. Polar corridor to human space flight destination. So we skipped over that one quick. Here's my question. I have one question for both of you on this Fram 2 thing. Say that there's like a scrub or something and or say like your open clippers was a launch this year, right? That's this fall.

So say that like goes late in the window and it takes some while to flip back and they don't end up flying in December to January time frame. Do they slip an entire year because they want to see Antarctica a little? illuminated fully because they've said this as like a marketing point of the mission. That's what I wonder. Or they're just like that's a nice time to target. Seems like, is it just a perfect? What's the window that they get 90% of it or however much that.

Yeah. Yeah, you should be able to go into like into January for a couple weeks. It'd be no problem, right? Like the best date would be December 21st. But if you go, um, you go three, four weeks in either way. Yeah. Yeah. Also, I know you all have probably spoken about it a lot, but that returned to flight in, what, two weeks? Pretty dope. I was thinking about that this morning. Do they still have stuff to do? Like, what are I supposed to follow up on on this? Who did they change something? Do they changing it back? And do they have to, is there more stuff I need to be aware of?

What I understood and I thought was like, I don't have any any insight that's not public. was it was essentially just a testing line that screwed something up and they're like, hey, do we actually need that? Nope. And they just were like, cool, get rid of it. Delete the console long. Remove debugging hooks.

No, it was remarkable. I mean, the timeline for me is I came on off nominal and then I went away for two weeks on vacation. When I came back, everything had happened and been resolved. Like, there was that three-week period on both those shows, Falcon 9 was flying and there was an anomaly in the middle of it. It's crazy. It's nuts.

And they didn't jump back into like eight Starlink flights in a row. They did a couple Starlink flights and then a cargo flight to ISS and then a crew flight to commercial crew flight and a commercial comma crew flight. and then another one coming up the end of the year. They just got right back into actual stuff rather than a 10-longed ramp up. It's crazy. Yeah. Oh, that was a question I had for you.

I've got Eric Berger's book in my hands, and I know Jake's got an e-book because it's possible to send anything to Mexico, which is a topic for later, Jake, I've been trying to send. I've been trying to FedEx you things. Apparently Rocket Lab can FedEx Spaces. It's easier than I can FedEx a box to Mexico. But this book. is freaking red. It's not out. We've got a month left.

But it's awesome. I just want to practice. We're prepping for the books to us. So that's a hell of a flex. Very nice. It is. Well, I just want to alert everybody

that Eric's coming on soon and we're going to talking about this. Oh, awesome. And I'm going to go buy it right now. Pre-order it already. Cool. There you go. Already gone.

Yeah. I just forgot that I did. John, where should people, I know you posted some videos. and stuff recently of the product. I wanted you to plug what is up if people want to follow along with what you're working on these days.

Yeah, usually LinkedIn's best place. We're doing a lot of product marketing, showing people what we can do in the application. And yeah, follow us, integrate on LinkedIn. We post some stuff to X, but we're a lighter touch there. And then hit us up.

You can hit me up at John, at integrate.co if you're curious about it or our head of sales, Scott at integrate.co, and we're happy to walk you through it. Or you can just go sign up for a free trial and poke around yourself at integrate.co. Pro trial for for 14 days. And we will reach out to you if you do that. Beware. Oh, look at me. That's me. That's not a screen cap. That's me. Right there. Two of me. Cool.

Double John. It looks rad. Thanks. Thanks. We just had a major facelift that I'm probably going to put a video out tomorrow about just streamlining everything and compact view. And it looks really, really sleek. I'm really excited about it. But he did have a question for you.

This is that branding PR thing. So program management software for the world's most ambitious machines. What do you think of initially when we say ambitious machines? Do you think of the people building ambitious machines as the ambitious machines? Sorry, do you think of the people or the products they build as the ambitious machines? Hmm. And what would be a stretch? What would not be?

What do you think is more impactful or meaningful? And if we're, I know, I know we're over. So, you know. Yeah, you French goodbye. out of this. I love it. It's tough because we already know what the product is. But you're not imagining what an ambitious machine would look like, Jake? I'm thinking about robots, personally.

I thought robots, like I thought, I thought ambitious machines, I'm thinking like things that dig tunnels and trains and airplanes and rockets and, right? Robots at try hard. Robots to try hard. try hard bots yeah i don't think about people oh okay yeah i think it catches me up it makes me think about it for a second yeah i don't know i think i have a weird relationship with the word

ambitious is what i'm realizing through this discussion what's what's your relationship with the word i don't know it throws me off i don't know i kind of stall out when i'm trying to think about uh... mish robots with ambition i guess i'm uh you know i figure out where i would rank them Is Roomba? Is Roomba ambitious? It tries to get everyone in your house. It's pretty ambitious.

The opposite of ambitious. A shoelace takes Roomba out. Clearly I've never had one. I have all stairs in my house. I have no rooms that are attached not via stairs. I'm done. I'm done. I'm done.

I'm good. Blue smoke break, whatever it is. I do love my room. I just like, I also go home every day and I'm like, different day, different shoe lace. All right. I got to think on it more is my answer, I guess. Jake, you've got to, you lined up a really interesting show next week when I was on vacation, I think. Well, I wrote a blog post, geez, but a while now. It's five or six weeks ago about the Hubble situation with Isaacman and stuff.

It wasn't actually about that. It was about more of a bigger thing. Because Casey Dreyer at the planetary society had this, podcast about, how do you title it, like religiosity in space? So kind of like drawing some parallels between the movement to put people into space and how there's like kind of like some religious, almost culty aspects to like the people who follow it and are involved with it and stuff. And I was seeing a bunch of parallels with what was happening with Hubble. So I wrote this thing about it and I sent it to Casey. I was like, look what your stupid podcast made me right. And he said, He said, can I come on and talk about it? And I said, yes.

And then I booked them. That was the extent of what we have planned about it. So we're going to talk about, I don't know where it's going to go. We're going to talk about probably some Hubble stuff and probably some, I don't know, religion stuff. Opportunity. Opportunity got a little of that vibe, I feel like, right? A little bit, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

There's some stuff. Good night, I'll be all over. So, yeah. Yeah. Nice. I'm punts. I got some reading to do, I guess. I don't know what we're doing.

will happen, but... Just get to go places. That's the promise. Yeah. Yeah. John, thanks for hanging out. I didn't give any of my Salt Lake City recommendations, but I will post that somewhere at some point and convince everyone to come to Red Aguon with me. When we go to SmallSat and the next time, we'll... Yeah.

Yeah. That's whatever. Because you've never been, right? Never been to SmallSat. I've been spent so much time in Salt Lake City. So I'm happy to hang out at Bar-X. Way too long. and eat red iguana and there's a really i have to check if it still exists there's a bar that

we used to go to that was a joint it was like a basement and it was an it was like a dive bar on one side and a a sushi restaurant on the other side and a friend used to run bingo nights there and it's the weirdest place i've been in my life and oh shucks shout out oh shucks in salt lake city if it still exists i got a check it's been a couple years so yeah i don't I have nothing against Salt Lake City. I'm just going to miss Logan. That's all. You can go, John.

You can go back. Yeah, you could go there. You could drive there. See, you don't live that much. This is the front. Oh, man. Well, all right, everybody. We will see you next week.

Thanks again, John for hanging out. Thanks, John. Thank you so much. Bye.