Off-Nominal - 181 - Down-Suggest (with Swapna Krishna)

Episode Date: January 17, 2025

Jake and Anthony are joined by Swapna Krishna to talk about the Mars Sample Return non-update…since they only gave it about 5 minutes of last week’s show. And hey, there are some big rockets on launch pads right now.TopicsOff-Nominal - YouTubeEpisode 181 - Down-Suggest (with Swapna Krishna) - YouTubeNew Glenn Mission NG-1 | Blue OriginNew Glenn reaches orbit on first launch - SpaceNewsMars Sample Return: Will NASA’s ambitious mission ever happen? - YouTubeWill Mars Sample Return ever happen?NASA isn't fixing the heat shield on Artemis II - YouTubeWhat will billionaire Jared Isaacman do as NASA Administrator? - YouTubeNASA to Explore Two Landing Options for Returning Samples from Mars - NASANASA to study two alternative architectures for Mars Sample Return - SpaceNewsMars Sample Return | Rocket LabFollow SwapnaAd Astra - YouTubeAd AstraSwapna Krishna (@skrishna) • Instagram photos and videosFollow Off-NominalSubscribe to the show! - Off-NominalSupport the show, join the DiscordOff-Nominal (@offnom) / TwitterOff-Nominal (@[e-mail]) - Spacey SpaceFollow JakeWeMartians Podcast - Follow Humanity's Journey to MarsWeMartians Podcast (@We_Martians) | TwitterJake Robins (@JakeOnOrbit) | TwitterJake Robins (@[e-mail]) - Spacey SpaceFollow AnthonyMain Engine Cut OffMain Engine Cut Off (@WeHaveMECO) | TwitterMain Engine Cut Off (@[e-mail]) - Spacey SpaceAnthony Colangelo (@acolangelo) | TwitterAnthony Colangelo (@[e-mail]) - jawns.club 🐘Off-Nominal MerchandiseOff-Nominal Logo TeeWeMartians Shop | MECO Shop

TLS and go for main engine, start. Well, friends, this is a extremely 2020's week. Like, I don't know if there's more of a 2020s week than two moonlanders launching, a starship launch, new Glenn's flying. How could you get more 20-20s than this, Jake? How could you get more? Well, we all know the answer to that, and we don't want to say it out loud. So let's hope this is as most as 2020 is 2025 gets. I said, to be clear, I said 2020s.

I'm doing the decade. I'm not saying this, although you're right, that all of those things were supposed to have it in 2020 as well. So it's true. It's all over your shoulder, spin around and spin or whatever you've got to do with them. Well, we, one of my favorite versions of this show, Jake, is when we get other people from the Philadelphia area on to annoy you with our Philadelphia isms. So swap and welcome back. Thank you. Snowing.

We're chilly. Yes. And, you know, I don't know what that'll bring to the show today. Yeah, no, a little bit of craziness here. Well, I got the air conditioner running, so that gives you a little bit of a, yeah. Different worlds. Very different world, very different world. A switch to reveal we've got in the chat.

That's the other thing that's going on. Yes. Switch to reveal. I'm very excited. I'm very excited. Did you watch that video, Jake? So, okay. It's just us.

Just us excited. Yeah. I love Nintendo, but games here have never, ever worked for me. They've never, this has never been where I want to play games. It doesn't have to be there. That's the point of the switch. Okay, but like I don't, just because it does two things, I don't need half the things this does, then I don't want to buy it.

That's a funny product. Yeah. It's the opposite of the Switch light. That's a good idea. Yeah. Have they considered a regular-ass console? To be fair, I play with it docked like 90% of the time. And actually as I was in the pre-show, I've been talking about how I'm getting older and I start

to feel old now. Straight up gaming on the couch is like doesn't really work for me as much anymore. Because I'm just like, this is, I don't know, it's just like uncomfortable. I'm like I don't, this is not where I want to. I'm like, when I'm like an active when I play video games, like I'm engaged with it and I like to sit up straight. That's why I like a desktop piece. because I'm like, it's like I'm doing an activity.

I'm not just like lays it around. I know. All right. Posture elitist. Come on. When I want to do that, I want to just like have a TV show be at me, you know? I can just lay there and do nothing. That's not gaming for me.

Anyway, there you go. Wow. A little bit of Jake philosophy on the world. Jeez. Just coming out blazing. I'm the curmudgeon now. What do you drink it over there? Something real, getting a real spicy.

what he got? Well, it's definitely old school. Look at this. What is that? Iron Maiden themed Trooper IPA. Holy shit. Yeah. Iron made Trooper IPA.

That's the name of it. Wow. India paleo, yeah. A bunch of Spanish. Don't drink it if you're pregnant. Yeah. Under 18. Oh, under 18.

I forgot about that. Yeah. It's 18-d-M-U-M-H. You guys are the only ones to do it at the other. age. So yeah, I'm doing this. It's weird. I saw at the store and I was like, well, I got to get it because it's got a skeleton

on it. I have a skeleton on mine too. I have one of those same ones that I had last week. This hop cartel thing. Nice, nice. It was tasty last week and I only got through one of them. So I brought it back. I guess it's not a skeleton.

It's like a zombie or something with a flag. Anyway. I don't know. Cheers. Did you bring anything fun, Swapna? Nothing fun. As I get old, I get dehydrated. So it's literally my like cup of water.

Like it's a cool cup. That's it. Yeah, it is. It's a fun cup. But like it's also just literally it's so dry outside and I'm I'm not I'm not having it like in this like respiratory upper respiratory area. So yeah, a lot of water. That's true.

We are an energetic youthful bunch today. Yeah, it feels great. We stayed up late to what rocket launch is and yeah, that's good. Oh my God. So we gave So we gave Mars and Up return about five, maybe five minutes of the show last week. Like three minutes and 45 seconds.

Yeah. Like on the way out. What do you think about this? And so we thought we should fix that today. We also have this new Glenn launch that was absolutely beautiful. Yeah. Which one you want to start with? You get to pick.

I mean, let's do new Glenn. It's pretty short. Like, you know, it was stunning. Like the view, I'm glad they did a night launch for this first one. Tell me more about you being happy about that. Yeah. Just in terms of like the visuals. You like the plumes.

You're a plumes fan. I like the plumes. That's the plumes. That's, yes. I have thought about how they treated the press for this, though, which I did not try to this. Once it wasn't a NASA mission anymore, I was like, I'm not going to try. But I was reading Lauren Gresh's, the business.

of space from Bloomberg, which is her excellent, you know, the excellent Bloomberg newsletter she contributes to. And she said that they, for the press, they put them in a windowless room at Cocoa Beach and like didn't provide a launch viewing area. They just, it was like a live stream. Like, which, you know, at NASA, you know, it's, it's a windowless room with a live stream, but we all can go outside and watch the launch. It's a door. You go outside and watch the launch Or you, you know, or bust to an area where you can see it if you can't see it from the press site But like the entire thing was just like, I was just like

That confuses me because isn't there like isn't the point of the the Blue Origin factory like where it is like by the by the visitor center Like they have the mission control there and it faces like you can literally just look out the window from mission control and see their pad like isn't Wouldn't you have like a rooftop like social area on there? They do and I bet that. that would come into play later, but I bet it was just jammed with the, with the VIPs that need, like, security details and stuff. Yeah, I just, like, you know, I'm not saying, you know, you have to treat the press extra special or anything, but it's a first launch. We've been waiting a long time. Like, maybe just like, you know, we're just asking for, like, a dirt field. Not, you know, we don't expect much, especially at like Cape Cadabral. But yeah, I was, I was shocked.

when I read that. That's interesting. So here I've got two angles there. Number one, I'm not shocked. Blue Origin is weird. Yeah. Weird. I agree.

Number two. I'm going to adopt for every New Glenn launch from now until eternity. The one thing I learned at our Artemis I trip, Jake, was tucked up in all the way at Port Canaveral is a bonkers view of the Blue Origin launch complex. Yeah. It is, I think, by the map, the closest you can get to the launch pad with, if you're not on, like, Space Force property. So what we did during Artemis I, since we did not get press credentials, was go out to the beach and have drinks way too early and had a good party. And I think maybe that's what we should all do from now on.

Yeah. And not go to the official press thing. That's actually what I've started thinking about. Like, there's literally, I was looking for. I don't remember what it was I don't remember what it was but some launch and there's literally like hotel rooms in Titusville

that like you get like you can get a hotel room just like with a giant view I'm like maybe that's the way to do it let's try to get so much of the press to a particular location just on the beach like pick some really bizarre grungy location all go there and then if Blue Origin wants the press

they can send someone to our beach party Yes. I think that's fine. I just pulled up the map. So where we had our beach party for Artemis 1 is five miles from the New Glen Pad. That's not bad.

That's five miles is not bad. What is the NASA Quest 9? Two or three? Like it's not really Yeah, it's not that close. And I don't think you can get, I'll pull up Google Maps too if we're just going to maps everything. Jeez. What a segment of this. Segment of the show.

It's not just five. It's not. It's not five miles of jungle either. Most of that's over the water. Oh, no, it's a beautiful view. Yeah. An unobstructed view, right? That's a great view. Wow.

You can't see the actual like pad because there's like a little hill or whatever, but, you know, five seconds in the flight, that thing is coming over the tree tops and you've got a full, full view out to the ocean. Oh, gorgeous. I mean, I screwed something up. That's there enough. I mean, you've got like to, you know, obviously to the KSC visitor center, you've got like nine. to where you would hang out for some of the 39 launches, you're like nine and a half, right?

And even, so if you're on the causeway, if you can get to the causeway, then you're like four and a half. It's still, not that much closer half a mile. Yeah. Being, like, behind the rock is not ideal, too, right? You can be drunk on the beach at those locations.

That's the critical thing that we learned. So, there's no rules that port cadaveral on the beach. I don't think that's a legal area where there's no rules. So there's really none. People are on cruises and on vacation. There's no rules. Yes. We can bring our flag. Yeah, we had a flag for the Artemis 1 launch. That was good. Whatever happened on those. They're right over there. Yeah. I forgot to bring mine with me. Yeah. Oh, right. Yeah, I have one. You have the other one. I don't have the other one. Oh, do I have both of them? Did you leave it there?

I think so, because we stayed up too late and then I had to go to my best friend's wedding that was in Orlando very quickly. So I I forgot to. The amount of stuff that I left at that Airbnb, like we bought like camp there for like a week and a half. We bought like a full furniture set, like lawn chairs to, like I had a cooler. There was like all this food.

There was like 30 beers. Like the amount of stuff I left. Every time I go to, you know, I get an Airbnb usually at Cocoa Beach. I leave so much stuff. There's always a cooler. There's always,

you know, like every time. Just restocking these people's lifestyle. Yeah. Yeah. It was pretty funny. So what, all right, we're not, I'm not shocked by the press handling. Is there anything else that you are shocked by on the, on the launch?

They made it. They made it. I mean, I did not expect them to recover the booster and they didn't, right? Like, and so, yeah, no, they made it. Like, that's, they made it to orbit. I mean, that's more than I expected, honestly. I would have a bit heavier on making, the booster making it back than the, Yeah, I was surprised by that.

And they kept saying over and over again, like, we're not a priority is not recovering the booster. And then they delayed the launch like twice because of, you know, rough, you know, seas. And I was like, it seems like you really want to recover the booster. So I don't know. Blue Origin, I'm glad they, I'm really glad it took off. I'm glad it was successful. But I just, they're so hard to cover. They're so, they just, it's just really difficult.

in any way to cover them. So I just kind of, I'm like, all right, you know. Just kind of doing it. Yeah, I just don't engage a lot with them because it's just so hard to, like even like I was like looking at like their blue ring pathfinder payload stuff. And like it's such, everything is such business speak. Like even like the orbital reef, it's like an off like literally they say it's like an office park in space. That's like literally what they say about it. I'm like, that's the least exciting way to describe the space station I have ever heard. So clearly, I am not the audience for this. Have you ever dreamed of having a longer commute to your shitty job?

That's, I mean, like, who is this for? Like, I enjoy my commute. Okay, I enjoy my commute. Where's your shirt? I should have worn it. Oh, my God. That was so good. Speaking of a long commute, we got to watch this thing lumber off of the launch pad on this street.

Yeah, man. It was, whoa. This thing was just taking a while to get up there. That's the moment right there. When it clears the tower and it's still hanging there, you're like, wow, that's got a, that's got a ways to go before that thing's going to be moving. I want to see, I need like Scott Manley or someone to like just put like the, like, all the big rockets on. on like a split screen, you know, from the same camera angle, the same distance with the same times to see like the thrust away differences.

Because like it seems Saturn-esque, but I don't know if it's if it's slower than Saturn. But like, you know, shuttle would have just like, phew, shot off that thing. But yeah, it's interesting. It was slow. That's a slow one. Yeah. Not as slow as Starship One. That was barely moving.

Well, I'm, what I'm really curious about though is like it was slow, but there wasn't much of a payload on there at this time. So, like, what's it going to look like when they fill that faring up with 158 Kipers or like a space station or something, you know, like, if they put a whole office park in there, if they put a whole office park in there, how, how was the thrust rain ratio could it be? Oh, my God. Yeah.

I don't know. I mean, obviously, they haven't told us almost any details. So we don't know how much they had these engines trimmed back and. Yeah, that's true. Yeah. Maybe they were just like taking it easy. Could be. Yeah.

Maybe they throttled down to simulate what it would be at full thrust with a full payload. Wow. That is going out of your way to give them credit. Yeah. I don't know. Get the timings right. I'm just spitball in here. I got this trooper IPA.

Yeah. I can't we. I mean, we're just warming up here for some more sample turn topics. For some Mars drama. Real quick. Last week we did some predictions, Jake. I think you were you were selling on new glen I'm going to pull up the document I don't think you were feeling too hot about their potential for the year uh hang on no no no no no no you're this is revisionist history here this is revisionist history

i was i was not bearish on new glen you were just outlandishly bullish and i was not buying that okay so you said they fly maybe two is what you said i said too is believable yeah I think too amazing. The other day, I think some article I read that Blue Origin said, we're going to fly 8 to 10 and we have the capacity for 12, which is hilarious. All right. My, Swapa, you ground truth me here, okay? My prediction, very specifically, I called my shot.

Mission 1 in January, Escapade in May, and a blue moon shaped thing in October. Yeah, I think I could see that. I could see that. Yeah. I feel great today about this prediction. That, that's believable to me. Like, the numbers that they were giving is not. Eight to ten?

You know, yeah. Eight to ten is a lot. That's a lot. And we still don't know how the launch pad fared. We don't, there's a lot we don't know. Like, they may have to do, like, considering how slow it was to get off the launch pad, we may use some damage there. We don't know.

But they actually meant is they needed eight to 12 engines. That's what they need. Beautiful launch, though. I'm glad you feel great about it, and I'm excited to have this conversation in January, 2026, and see where it's at. We're going to have this conversation in May when Escapades on its way. We're going to have this conversation in October when there's a blue moon-shaped thing flying towards the moon, Jake. Oh, yeah, yeah.

Yeah. I got to go to that. This is the first launch in a long time where I've watched it, and I was like, damn, that's a beautiful launch. It just looked great. I wish it was in daytime. but the plume was quite beautiful for the plume lovers among us. Let me put it another way for you. Vulcan's first launch was picture perfect.

Okay. And they had two in their first year? Yep. And they've got significantly more experienced launching rockets than Blue Origin. The company does, Jake, but not the people. And it needs... I have a feeling there's a lot of people... Five fewer engines.

...other company that's launched a lot of rockets. It's five few inches. But it does need those solid rocket boosters, which tend to have some observations from time to time. Yeah, but what I know about North of Grumman solid rocket boosters is that they're always made 10 to 15 years in advance, and they're just sitting in a warehouse somewhere. Oh, my God. I'm just letting this plume run for a second.

Yeah, I was like it's a pretty plume, man. That's beautiful. It is. It really is beautiful. I didn't expect this. to look this clean. I love this little roll on it too. You can see like the.

Oh, yeah. Lovely. Just a touch. That's why I was glad it, you know, I wish it launched during the day just, you know, for my own schedule. And like, you know, we can see more during the day. But like, I just, I. This was gorgeous.

Yeah. Got to have one of those for the, for the record books. Yeah. Launch the rest of the day. Please. The only one that like the where they were launching it doesn't matter. That's the confusing part. Yeah.

We were talking about that in the discord. And the theory was that like because it's a methane rocket, you know, there's that huge methane exclusion zone because they're like not sure how explosive it is. So they have like the huge zone. So you're shutting down all marine traffic and all air traffic. So doing it at night is like just a little easier on everybody. Better weather, better sea state. Yeah. I'm not saying it doesn't make sense.

I'm just saying Swapna and I have kids and we already wake up once or twice a night and would rather not wake up three times. Yes, I will admit, I did not stay up for this and I watched it this morning because there's no way. No way. I don't have kids, but I've already established in the show that I am now going to be 40. You act like it. Yeah.

Yeah. Not happening. I need my sleep. Yeah. All right. It was good, though. It was good flight. I'm happy with it.

It's a success. And it might even launch something to Mars next time. Maybe. Speaking of which. Maybe in May. Maybe in May. That's going to be May. Where are we starting?

The Mars effort, sir. Yep. That's where we're at. You can't say that joke until the last week of April. Come on, man. Oh, my God. Listen, I can do what I want. all right

we did like I said we did five minutes about Mars Sampersoner on the last show which was woefully underdoing it and it's been a little bit we had some time to sleep on it I don't even know was the when did Rocket Lab get noisy about their Mars Ampertron thing was that before the last show

that we did or after that might have been a new element that we have no it was before it was right before I was right before I was like I think it was I know it was last week they were coming out hot I have questions about that we should get into it like the strategy there and what what they seek to gain from that positioning uh what's your what's your top line on this swap now like five check on the a non-announcement announcement where you at this is like are you serious that this is where we are like are you

kidding me this has been a this has been a NASA flagship mission since 1987 this is where we are the year of our Lord 2025. So I'm not, I'm not feeling good about this. Yeah. That's a good take. That is a solid take. Just like, I cannot believe that just, I mean, we all know an ass to move slowly. There's a lot, there's a lot of moving parts, a lot that goes on.

This is a mission that's owned by, like, you know, like run through multiple centers, so it's going to take longer. but I just cannot believe how slowly it's going. Yeah. The 1987 thing, whatever, is like, yeah, I think that's whatever. But I don't think you even need to go back that far because I think like, hey, this has been under like pretty serious formulation since 2020, 2019, somewhere in that era, right? Right?

Where they like, they moved from where they had their PD, PDR or the whatever it is, the KDPC. KDBA or C. C. Yeah. KDB, key decision point B or whatever the one they had around that time, that kicked them into the next phase, right? And then they just sort of like spun their tires and spent a whole bunch of money for like four, like the entire Biden administration, the entire Nelson Biden administration.

And then right at the end, we're like, oh, hey, this, this isn't going well. I'm going to light a fire under them. And then you do a bunch of studies and JPLs. like, hey, we actually have this sky crane. I'll shave four billion bucks. Which is just like, why isn't this something? Like literally like, I mean, the proposal is to use us the sky crane, which is great. We should.

That makes sense. But like, and like shave weight off the ascent vehicle. Like, how is this not stuff they were talking about a decade ago? Like, I just like, you know, this sky crane has been very successful with curiosity and perseverance. Like, I just, it just feels like we are. if we actually want this mission to happen. They also, considering that the impetus for the two routes that they have down select, I don't even know how to refer to this, they didn't really down select, but they said,

we're going to explore these two routes. Yeah. Both of them are enabled by, we're able to save some weight on the ascent vehicle portion. And I feel like we have no detail on what that actually means. There were some obscure references. I don't know, which one of you has taken a deep dive more into. like where that is come from? Do we feel confident in what we could describe that to?

There was talk about we can clean the stuff in orbit or not on the surface but not on the orbit. What was the, what is happening? I mean, one of the like really tough technical challenges. Wait, hold on.

It's a great, a great term, huge comments over our, this is how our stream works now. Down suggests is an absolutely fantastic term for this. I was like saying. Yeah. So no,

there was like a, I know one of the, the really challenging technical parts of this was like trying to manage the planetary protection part of what they call breaking the chain, right? Which is where you like you create an interface in the mission somewhere where like the outside Mars pathogens, the dust and stuff on the samples and the, you know, all the stuff that's on the surface that has to operate the surface. You create an interface where that stuff.

Is it called pathogens? I don't know. I mean, man. This is all made up science. Keep going. Sorry. But you make you make an interface where that stuff can't cross over, right? And that handoff, you call.

breaking the chain so that you can whatever. That was on the old plan was happening in space. So the Mars of Sandfield will go up. It would like open its fairings. This little sample canister would come out. And then it would like rendezvous with the Earth return orbiter, which would ingest it. And that interface was the breaking the chain thing. And I guess that was really hard.

And I know that they, they changed the size of the sample handling canister a whole bunch times, like during the design. Like they kept changing their mind. Like, oh, it should be this big and all. like smaller, no, make it bigger. Let's have 20 samples. Let's have 40 samples. It just kept back and forth. And because that's like, that's like the root part of the entire architecture,

it just every time they changed your mind that that changed order cascaded through the whole architecture and they redid everything. And they kept doing that over and over again. So moving that to the ground maybe cuts a bunch of that nonsense out. And like, that's my theory is that you can like really simplify how that works. I still am not. the math is still not math informing for me though on like $4 billion

like there's there's more than one thing contributing to that and I don't know what it is yet so can you explain this this how this is simpler now so before it sounds like they would launch a collection they would launch this

all right so you would go to the surface they would scoop the tubes up and put them in some sort of containment device and then that would launch to orbit and you're saying that they would get Pac-Manned up by the return orbiter? Like they would...

I believe... Yeah. I mean, it's not a direct... Yes. It's not a direct transfer. They would release it and then capture it in free space. Yeah. I didn't know that's how that was going to work.

Yeah, it would separate from the second stage and the second stage would remain in orbit and have like a beacon to like broadcast where the sample container was. And then the Earth Return orbiter was supposed to find it and lock on and then come get the sample container. Sounds very complicated. It sounds ridiculous, to be honest. That sounds like that was never going to work. No.

We've never even done that with debris and Earth orbit. That's insane. And it's all robotic. Like you can't, you know. Okay, so how is this new? And that, so that was considered breaking the chain because you at what? Because like nothing, like the MAV is contaminated, right? Because it's like on the surface and it launches and it's covered in dust.

So, like, you don't want the MAV to come anywhere near the Earth return orbiter. I think that was the idea, basically. And but the can the canister is, I love that our interaction on this show is explained like I'm five to me on this. But, well, like, it's also like, I think. It's also like, it was supposed to, like, transfer the sample tubes to a different NASA sample containment system inside the Earth return orbiter. I remember it being sounding very complicated like because NASA's capture and containment system. That's what it is like transfer the transfer the tubes how a robot I don't know a robotic arm or something but like how are you going to operate a robot I don't know. I have a lot of questions. Yeah.

There's there's some yeah that that that was the complexity driver right that whole that whole interface is trying to try to like reconcile the planetary protection stuff with it and do it in a clean way. right? So I don't know. This is the problem. We have an understanding of what the new thing is, though. That is easier than that was. No, we know. We're doing it on the ground instead of in space now. That's basically what they said.

And it's like, okay. How are we all collectively letting them hand wave away the part that says they will save us $4 billion on. Yeah. Like, and also they talked about the option of like taking it back to lunar orbit, which would, you know, that would shave off a decent amount of money. We'd still have to go get it from lunar orbit. And I'm like, if we're talking about the late 2030s that they're talking about this happening,

wouldn't we have gateway supposed to, wouldn't we have astronauts in orbit by that? Like, that's what blew my mind. Like, it's like they don't actually think gateway is going to happen or they don't actually think it's going to be there because there was no addressing of like, because they were like, we decided not to do that because then we'd have to go get it. But if you already have astronauts, you're there, on the space station in lunar orbit, It's an office park. It's an office park. Okay. It's an office park. Yeah. But anyway, I was, I had so many questions. Gateway is only going to have astronauts in it, like 30 days every two years. Yeah. That's true.

But we could, we could, you know, we could, I don't know, overlap. I don't know. My suggestion on that was that if you want the Mars sample return cost to go down, do not in any way tie it to the Gateway program. That's true. That's true. That's my advice to the other than the team. Very, very good advice. Yeah. No, so I mean, I think that there is probably a couple things going on here, right? So like, okay, you save a little bit of money when you change the lander to something

that's either pre-made like Skycrane or a commercially available service that just is cheaper because. And then they found some way, you know, they cut something out they didn't need to you on the sample handling stuff. And then I think the other thing is that. the the estimates on this new thing are just completely made up. So. And my evidence for that is that,

A, like this is a mission that is still going to be 15 years ahead and like 15 years in the future. And so you just cannot estimate. Like, any NASA estimate for 10 to 15 years from now is always, always 100% going to be low. The second thing is that they still need 18 months to study these two options, which means that they don't know enough about them.

yet, which means they can't, you know, adequately say how much it could have cost. And then I think the other thing is that, yeah, this, the old price, the 11 billion, I bet you was just really, really bad and wasn't what it was supposed to be. And so you could run the exact same program, but just like run it well. And you would have saved some money off of it. And they've already spent, what, $20 billion? Like, it's so much money. I don't know what they've spent on it so far.

They said at the press conference they've spent 20 billion so far. And I'm like, on what? No. I think, was that a Bill Nelson quote? That was a Bill Nelson quote to be fair. Yeah. He also tweeted congratulations in New Glenn with a picture of Falcon 9. Oh, no, he didn't.

Yeah, I did. Did he relate that guy? It's probably our first off nominee. Did he delete it? He did delete it, yeah. There's a screen cap. So we can get it. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. It's all my God. I don't even know if I made the off nominee document for the year. Oh, no, I did. Oh, no, we had one. You tell Sat in one web had a daylight saving time glitch. Oh, right. A leap year, a leapier situation.

Oh, boy. Oh, boy. I got to find out. I, yeah, I have a lot of questions. I also have a lot of questions about the ascent vehicle in terms of there's already, like, Lockheed Martin's working on it, supposedly. Like, right? Like, the rocket.

Like, aren't they building? I don't know where they are, to be fair, but they've had the contract for a while. That doesn't mean anything with Lockett, though. They've been building Orion for two decades, too. Wow. It's true. It's true.

That wasn't a lot of, I feel like I've seen a lot of videos of the launch mechanism to, is that also a Lockheed thing with the, where it pop up off? That's JPL where it launches the rocket. It like throws it. I don't know why that noise is going to help audio listeners, but,

It pops it up, but not just straight horizontal to the ground. It gives it a little bit of a tilt. You don't need to go straight up on Mars because the atmosphere is so thin. So you can launch at something like 30 or 40 degrees off the ground or something like that. So they kind of like tilt it up to 30 and then it throws it up in the air and it air lights, which is wild. But yeah, the spring mechanism is super cool on that. But I don't know, maybe they don't need that too.

Maybe that's some money they can. they can, you know, dial off. Have they thought about contracting spin launch to set up a launch thing on the surface of Mars and just fling it off the surface? It would probably work much better on Mars. It's just rocks. It's a big,000 G's on Mars. I always thought it would work better on the moon. Spin on the moon.

Spin launch is going to go Mars. Okay, so then the other tactical question here is like, why the fuck did they announce this right now? Why did they feel the need in January to, was this January where they did it? Yes. Right. Why do they feel the need in the closing days of their tenure? Is this a Bill Nelson legacy play? Is this an earnest use of their Mars sample review team?

output? What's the, where do you land on that? I think it's 100% political. I think they're worried this is going to get canceled and they want to show their work on it so far and kind of challenge Congress to continue funding it and challenge. Like I think it was 100% political. A friend of mine who works at NASA told me that like the mood there is very somber, like very, very, very somber with like the people internally.

they're not feeling good about anything and they're not, you know, and so that makes sense. And so I, knowing that, it's just, I think it's a hundred percent. They want to posture for whatever's going to come down the plate. Yep. 100%. And like, I think like it was a specifically, uh, this press conference was to make it clear that we want to beat China. Like I think, because like, you know, that rhetoric has increased significantly.

since the election. They constantly talked about that when they didn't talk about it at all before. Nelson, I give credit to Nelson for being a China Hawk. He's always said, I think his confirmation hearing the first time around

it was where the quote watched the Chinese was his quote in the hearing. Him personally, no one else seemed to catch on. Before he walked in this, the confirmation hearing, he hung up with Robert Bigelow

and they had a little shy. And then. God, that comment. I just, like, it was, yeah, But I think that was like, like if you want to be China, which is like a new priority of the new administration, like this is unlike, I mean, I don't know. But like I think it was 100% political. Yeah. Go ahead, Jake. Where's your Nelson take? I know you're a barn burner of one. No, I mean, that's a pretty good take. I mean, like anything, it's probably a little bit of a bunch of stuff. But I think that there's definitely some face saving going on because like all the, like I said, this has been running like this poorly for four years. on Nelson's watch. And if he just left it to flounder and then didn't do anything, it would look really bad.

At least now he can pretend like he cleaned it up. Like it was someone else's problem and he's the fixer, you know? Like, oh, I noticed this was not running very well. So I lit a fire under everybody and then told them to do some studies. And then I made the studies really fast. And I got it done before. I was going to the door, but I still got it done. You know, and it's like, this is your mess, bro.

But, yeah. So I think there's some face saving going on there. But also, yeah, political. Because it was, so my whole, I wrote a blog post about this Swapna. And my whole thing is that Mars Stamp Return is like very precarious right now with this new administration. Like it's for all the rhetoric that we're seeing, you know, if they're going to go after all this like government ways, like this is the kind of program they're talking about when they say things like that. Right. And so they, you know, if you do have an interest in Mars.

I'm in turn, like, you absolutely need to position it better before you go at the door. So, matter. Maybe Nelson just got pressure from people who are sticking around and have to clean up this mess, right? So. How much does it matter that $11 billion is $1 billion more than Elon Musk personally has totally randomly said that would cost them to do a human landing system to Mars program? That was a terrible sentence, but I'm pretty sure he's like, 10 billion. We'll do it for 10 billion.

and this is $11 billion. I got good sample collectors right here. You do, yeah. I cook soups a V sometimes. I can put raw meat in a bag without touching the outside of the bag and break the chain. Are you going to pick up the rocks

before or after you change your kid's diaper? Break the chain, baby. Just got to break it backwards, it's not forwards. Oh, that's your other thing we should talk about, Jake. You have a whole, like, planetary protection. master thesis going on. Yeah. You have two,

Jake has two conspiracy theories in the world of space swap. Now I should fill you in on both of these. Yes, please do. Always one is. JSC is the space Illuminati pulling the strings out of everything. So Johnson Space Center has masterfully crafted

the fixed price propaganda of the modern era to basically just be cost plus in disguise. And then the other is that the planetary protection scheme, the house of planetary protection is about the crumble, like dust it was never really thought through anyway and all the guidelines are made up and no one's in charge of it anyway. So it's, I don't know, Jake, I'm flusing the plot here. What's your plan on prediction thing? You have some master theory about it. I don't know if it's a conspiracy theory. It's more just like, here's the facts about what this is right now, which I know is what every conspiracy theorist would stay.

He literally is just asking questions. It's just facts, Anthony. No, but like. Just look at what's in front of you. So it is, planetary protection is paper thin. I'm air quoting here law, right? It's paper thin laws. There is like one line in the outer space theory. Outer space, what is it called? Outer space.

Treaty. Theory. Theory. Theory. Theory. There's one line in the treaty and the United States is a signatory. A bunch of other countries are too, including things like China and whatever. but that's the extent of it.

And so there is some part of American law, I don't know, I haven't found out like the exact details of this, but there's some American law that says like if we are a signatory of an international treaty, that treaty becomes federal law as well. And so because the United States signed the outer space treaty, planetary protection is technically the law in the United States. But Congress has not appointed anybody to regulate it, the way the EPA regulates the environment or the FDA regulates launch, et cetera, et cetera, right? And so there's, that's what they call the regulatory gap. There's no one who's in charge of like making sure you don't break that law.

And so basically, NASA has gone it alone. Every planetary protection policy, basically NASA wrote up what they think should happen. They gave it to Kaspar, which is the international body. And then Kospar says, well, you're NASA. We're not going to argue that much of you. And they just stamp it and put it into the, you know, the guideline, the Kaspar guidelines. So like, there's It's all like very, very paper thin. That's like the extent of the regulation, right? And that's been mostly fine. And kind of as we've gone a little further and further and further and pushed the boundaries,

we've had to rewrite different things. And so Viking was the big, big example. It was the first time we landed on Mars. So NASA wrote up a whole thing about how we should land on Mars and whatever should be. And then that's how we have those. We're still using those, by the way, like the Viking whatever processes, which are not good for today. We're still using those for planetary protection.

That's when we say it needs to be updated, that's what we're talking about. But Mars Samp return is the next like place where we're going to step into where there are no rules written yet. So class five, this is the first time that we were going to work with samples and then bring them back to Earth. And so it's like it's the highest level planetary protection mission we've done so far. And so we in tandem with actually execution. this mission, somebody needs to actually write some ideas on how we do it with regards to planeter protection. And it looks like it's going to be the Trump administration that does that, you know, because we're going to do that in the next four years. How is this different than other

sample return missions that have happened, though? We've never done one from Mars. That's this different. Not from Mars, but like, if I'm an enterprising astronomer, I would say it's just another rock. It just happens to be bigger than the other rocks we've returned samples from. Like, what's, What's difference? So it's a, acquiesous environment, right? It's, so under the like,

Cospar guidelines have like a, water's freaking everywhere. No, cost of our guidelines have like, like a classification for what places in the solar system could harbor life and which ones couldn't. And there's like class one through five,

I think it is. So Mars with samples is the level five mission. We've never done a level five mission. Samples from the moon is like a level one mission. It's like nobody cares. I can't wait until my thesis comes true that life is fucking everywhere and all these are completely irrelevant. Yeah, yeah. Agreed.

So this is the long way to say that planetary protection is a policy that is ripe for disruption and needs to be rewritten. And it goes along with... Are you saying both, what is it, forward and backward, right? Like two Mars and from Mars? Both of those are... Both of those are... we've never done, yeah, yeah. Okay.

Yeah, we've never, we've never, um, operated on Mars in a way that needs to be sample conscious. That's like the first difficulty that we're working with things. So we need to like the spacecraft that, you know, perseverance and the lander, all that needs to be like hyper clean and figured out. And then the second part is we're bringing that back to Earth. And so we need a whole process for that. Those are two things we've never really done before.

And so, uh, yeah, we need to write those rules. But, um, all right. Say, say the rules get rewritten. and whatever, they shake out in a certain way, and then we go and do Mars sample return. Thing comes back after the Pac-Man happens and all that kind of stuff. Comes back. Is there like a verification regime that, like, everything went as is?

Do we actually test this thing to make sure that we did that? And if we didn't follow the rules, we're not allowed to get the samples? What's the actual? No, that's what I'm saying. There are no regulations. No one is in charge of doing that. So like the, the highest authority on planetary protection

is a NASA planetary protection office who is not a regulatory body and don't have been, they're regulating themselves, yeah. Yeah. The administrator can say, that's a nice idea now go to hell and I'm going to do whatever I want anyway. Like that's not the level of authority they have, right?

They report to that. So yeah, it's, and there's actually, I did some research. There's some like wild stuff about like curiosity and some stories about that where or so was it Perseverance. I think it was the sample handling thing where they like they screwed it up.

As they said like they did. They had the thing sterilized and they had to like reopen the the yeah, it was Perseverance. They had to reopen it to put the drill bits back in. It was curiosity. They both have drill bits. Anyway, one of the rovers, there were some drill bits.

They had sealed the thing and like it had been safe for planetary protection. And then they opened it and put the spare drill bits back in. And it was like way late in the process and like you're going to miss a lawn. was going to fix it. And someone had, like the planetary protection office and the leadership were at odds with it and they had a big fight and then they were overridden. So like that tells you an idea of what. So curiosity actually broke planetary protection guidelines on its mission. So there's some wild stuff that goes on with that, man. It's crazy. Makes sense. I mean, I don't know. I think there is merit to both your conspiracy theories.

We take a look at the fixed, you know, price contracts for Boeing for Starliner. There's a lot more money than just, you know, one contract for the flight. Fixed. Yeah. No. So I guess this is a long way to say that this new government is probably going to have to make

some interesting choices on things next little bit. I am actually very curious to see. what they do. Very curious. I think there's some very interesting things that are going to happen. Yep. And you can go one step further right, right past Mars sample return as humans, which currently the Mars or currently the planetary protection guidelines straight up cannot support. There's no way you can satisfy the existing guidelines and send a person to Mars. They're just, they're mutually exclusive. So they have to be rewritten before you do that, right? Yeah. That's the guidelines NASA wrote for themselves. Or is that? Yeah.

The guidelines that Kaspar approved for NASA that came from NASA. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Like in many things, the Americans are the big game in town. And so you guys kind of get to set the precedent for a lot of stuff. I know. China didn't sign the Outer Space Treaty, right?

They did, yeah. We did. Okay. Do we, I mean, we don't, do we know anything about their planetary protection for this latest? I mean, I know you said the moon is like really low. Yeah, I read some story of a, of a scientist, a planetary scientist that went to like a conference where there was a Chinese planetary science. And like this is the extent that we know, like they publicly said like, yeah, we do planetary protection for, you know, like Chung Lin or whatever. And apparently this guy like sat next to him at like a, you know, a conference dinner or whatever.

I was like, do you guys really do planetary protection? He was like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's convincing. Very clean, very clean. And that's like the extent of the story. Like no details. Like straight up wouldn't say anything about it. So who knows, man.

Who knows? Yeah, that's the, I think that's what I'm getting at is like, all right, we follow these rules and then we land back on earth. Are we going to go through the regular rule of testing if we followed the rules right? And then we have to theorize on what actually happened if we find something. Well, you test before you leave, right? Once you get back, like there's testing. I mean, you probably do tests to see if like there's. Well, then why write rules for the way back?

Just write rules for the way out. well the rules for the way back are start from when you leave right like you want to make sure that so then what the hell is the math is dirty no because it's talking about bad contamination right this is ridiculous this is a ridiculous system yes it is wild it is wild I'm an abolitionist in this case I'm like I don't know man like we're going to get there at some point that's the good news yeah I guess it's just it's kind of how I feel about most of the the early, the late 2010s were dominated by a lot of think pieces about what are we going to do when someone tries to do this thing on the moon? And then the 2020s are like, turns out people are trying this thing on the moon.

What do we do now? And I just, you know, I feel like that's where we're going to end up regardless. So we are spending a lot of time on stuff that we're going to just have to confront when it happens rather than thinking our way through it now. That's exactly how planetary protection has always gone. Yeah. Like literally, like every time someone did this thing. Like the Viking mission started before there were rules about how the Viking mission was going to operate on the moon. Right. Right, right.

So like literally NASA goes, oh man, we're doing this now. Can we tell Kaspar how we're going to be smart? And then they go, how do you want to do this? They go, I don't know. I guess we'll like bake it in a oven. Like, okay, cool. Hey, Kosspara, we're baking the spacecraft. The rule is you bake the spacecraft. Stamp, damp, done.

All right, here we go. Meanwhile, we're like scraping microbes off the outside of the space station. Like, still kicking. They still got it. you know? Yeah. So, so like,

regardless of the administration, that's exactly what the Mars Navraturn mission was going to do. They're coming up with this thing or whatever, but that can very easily change, right? So, yeah. Yeah.

It gets pretty, this gets pretty like, I don't know, you know, gets pretty theoretical, pretty quick, but it also gets pretty, um,

not like, I don't know what word to even use for it. But you get into this whole thing. of like, all right, if we transport some of these microbes to Mars and then they end up taking over Mars, I always hear that we'll be able to know the difference between Martian life and Earth life when we look at it in a microscope. So, okay, well, maybe figure that out. But also, I don't know, like, if it's not the microbes' fault that they got there, they just happened to do really well in Mars. And then all of a sudden there's Martians. Like, I don't know

what to do with that. You know? If there's a person walking around on Mars, then sure, I'm like, I'm here for that. And then we can debate where that gray line is, you know? It's tricky. I'm in. Yeah, it is tricky. If it's another singular-celled thing and the single-seal from Earth do better, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's trying to solve ethics with science, which gets you in trouble, right? It's just a problematic spot. Yeah. I also just feel like you get that the timeline overruns you, right? Like, this thing gets back to Earth. How much time are we going to spend figuring out if we did all the things right before we crack open this thing? That is the most long-awaited people.

of science that has ever existed in humanity. Yeah. I mean, I think like, I'm very, I'm still supportive of... I would go through a pandemic again to get samples back from Mars, I guess is where I'm getting. Like, I'm good. I'll hang out in a mask for another two years if we get samples back from Mars. I'm cool with that trade off. I'm supportive with the concept of planetary protection.

It is currently implemented very poorly and needs a lot of, like, fixing and stuff. But I think, I think planetary protection does get caught up in the, the, the, concept of life a little too much. Like, it's not just about living things. I think it's just smart generally from a scientific perspective. Anytime you walk into a new environment, like to just try and, you know, you put your gloves on sometimes just because you want to make sure there's a little bit of a barrier. That's basically what is it. This is the, the planetary, intranetary space grab version of putting your gloves on before you touch the weird thing, right? Like, that's just, that's all it is. And so it's like, it's not a stupid thing to do. It's just how many layers of gloves do

like you put the full hazmat suit on before you go and like look at a thing across the bridge like no you don't like it's fine but so the implementation is a little wonky but the concept is still I think valid it's not just about preserving the environment yeah it's not just about life but you can just you can just spill a bunch of whatever like human skin into your your your rock sample and then now you've got a polluted sample just like you can't study it as well because it's contaminated right like it's not it's not just about microbes it's It's just about keeping the environments separate so that you can study them independently and have independent hypotheses and do proper science with it, right?

But isn't that up to the mission? Like, that's, shouldn't that just concern the mission scientists and engineers? Well, yeah, and it currently does, right? But why does it have to mean national policy that, like, they fucked up their science experiment? It's about preserving the environment. All right, we nailed it. You agreed to it in the 1967 outer space tree. Yeah.

To be clear, I did not. I was not there. The Royal You. I think I have not thought this much about planetary protection. And that's what I like about coming on this podcast. Like I think about, like, it always makes me think about something new. I got really deep in it a few weeks ago. I like it.

Like, no, I appreciate it. Genuinely, it's not something I've thought about in depth. And that's a really good point. I read about five or six of those like Academy of Science and Engineering reports, you know, like all those ones. There are some gems in the men. Reading those, every journalist should read every one of those. There's like always something good in those big, that they're long. They're like 100 page reports.

Man, there's gems in there. I spend a lot of time reading NASA reports and it's actually very interesting. Yeah. Like there's always something interesting where I'm like, oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So it's good. So anyway, we're really excited to see how that pans out.

I love, you know, really excited to see what happens generally with Mars sample return. Yeah. Yeah. I can't say I'm optimistic, but like I, that being said, I really hope it happens. Like and somehow I hope we pull it together in some way because I would really like this to happen, you know, in our lifetime. I'm currently torn on whether, because I obviously want the mission to happen, but like I think a viable answer to like the problem that we have with right now is we're not ready to do this and we need to go back. You know, you need to park this project, do other stuff for five or 10 years and develop new technologies and get better at things and let

the commercial industries develop things and then like circle back and then try again. I think that's like I don't know if that's the right choice, but I think, it's probably a valid one to think about. And so that's where I'm kind of torn right now is like, where are we on that? Like we've wanted these samples for a long time. Was now the right time to do it or did we bite it off a little early? I don't know.

We'll see. I think that's a good point, especially considering like Mars, like we haven't, NASA hasn't brought back robotic samples from the moon. Like the only, you know, maybe that's the place to start and try and see if it works. Test the technology. A moon to Mars type. Hey, there's a whole office at NASA if you weren't aware.

The whole other conversation that we could have a whole other podcast about is like what is the, what is the objective of the project, right? Because right now it's like very science driven. And so like the science director runs it. They said, we're doing this to get science. And so the Mars sample science is better than the moon sample science because we already have the moon samples, right? So like if you're if you're a scientist saying, why don't we go to the moon and get robotic samples first? like that doesn't solve our question.

I don't want to do that. I already have moon samples. That doesn't help me in any way, right? However, if you flip it and you say the point of this project is to develop sample return capability that we can use across, you know, as an agency, we want to develop either an industry or a technology that can do this regularly, then absolutely going to the moon makes less sense, right? So then you, that's your question of priorities, right?

Like, which is more important to do right now? I'm always about developing the engineering. Like I think one of the coolest parts of all of it is like, developing the capability to do it. Like, that's, you know, I think the science is great, but, you know, I just always like to know how things work. I think NASA does that really well, too. I think that's like an undersold.

It's hard, it's hard to market that, but I think like NASA's biggest boon is that they've created capabilities that you guys can use over and over and over again, right? Man, we got a moon to Mars type and a capabilities approach type. I don't know where I'm at here. I'm in the early 2010 from space policy. Charlie? You're?

Man. Call up Lori Garver. Oh my gosh. You know? Swapna, what are you working on these days? Let's hear about Ad Astra. Well, I'm just still sending out my newsletter. Not the Tom DeLong one.

Not the movie. Right? And not the school. Is Tom the Long one called that? Or the Elon Musk school, yeah. Yeah, the Elon Musk school, which I was like, oh, good. I love to share the name with you. And another thing makes me even less Google.

Yeah, no, just I'm sending out, if you would like to read my 3,500 word screen on Mars sample return, there it is up top. I did. There it is. It is long. And yeah, just doing that, YouTube newsletter, really, really kind of figuring out, you know, the ins and outs of like, I've been doing that like regularly for a year. So now it's like, what do I want to focus on? Because I can't do, I'm one person, cannot do everything. So it's figuring out, like, how to pick and choose, which has been a, kind of.

because I want to do everything because I find it all interesting, but like I'm one human with a child and cannot do everything. So it's figuring out now what I can do and what I need to let go. Content strategy. Yes, that's it. And I'm not good at it at all because I want to do everything because it's space and I like it. And that's cool. Yeah.

It's too much, too much now. Yeah. I've always just cast off whenever people ask me like, what kind of space stuff do you like? I just tell them like, rocket's not black holes. Like, I like black holes, but I'm never going to cover black holes. Yeah, that's the problem. I do this.

I do it all. And it's too much. Yeah. I keep it within a couple, AU. It's pretty much where I hang out, you know. Single digit AU. That's my territory. Fair.

Single digit AU. Single digit AU is my range. That's my happy spot. Yeah. I like all the other stuff. I like, I love my telescope. I'll look out there. I'll look at it.

But that's about it. I won't think about it much. Yeah. It sounds. And none of it makes sense. Nothing beyond a couple of you makes sense. It's all nonsense. Yeah, the astrophysics world?

None of it makes sense. Even, as I always say, the Big Bang sounds like bullshit. Like, that sounds like some absolute bullshit that we don't know what happened yet. I love cosmology. I love cosmology. It's like one of the places and there was everything and it just keeps going. That sounds like some bullshit that you didn't figure out yet. So, yeah, that's what I got, Jake.

Okay. That's your content strategy. You got to do the cosmology stuff. Me and Anthony, I'm going to do shit on that. Yeah, no. That's what I'm like, nothing. It's, yeah. If we want to be a trifecta here, you've got to cover up our weak spots.

Yeah. Jake's got the conspiracy theories. I got a rocket politics. And then, yeah, you cover everything else. So we're good. I've got my O to Gaia coming, that came out. The newsletter's coming out tomorrow. Because, like, you know, another big thing,

Gai spacecraft, ESA, took its last readings this week. So, yeah. All right. Four one out. True. Yeah. I thought you meant Earth, like, generally. Like, you had to move to Gaias spacecraft.

No. I was like, well, that's pretty, that's pretty cosmic. Yeah. Yeah. No science readings. Oh, man. Yikes. All right.

What are we doing next week? What are we doing next week? Well, we're talking rockets. We're not talking cosmology. We're talking rockets. And we have our friend Stephen Clark from Archechnica coming on. Oh, he's great. Yeah.

I never had him on the shows. And we had to admit that to him in the email where we invited him. We do that like an alarmingly large amount of time where we email someone and be like, we really like you. We've always liked you for years and we've always wanted to talk to you. And for some reason, we haven't emailed you until now. So here it is. It's our imposter syndrome where if the earlier we started following you in time,

the more weird we are about contacting you. Yes. That makes sense. I always had this block about Jeff Faust. Actually, Swabna, you are at EFT1 and way back when. And I just simply remember my Jeff Faust imposter syndrome happening because we were on the causeway waiting for the launch. And I heard other people referring to Jeff Faust as like the best guy. And then it got in my head that like I should never talk to him.

No, I have so much imposter syndrome about him because he's so good. I have so much time for him. I remember the moment when it hit me, too. Like, it was December, the day before launch, December 3rd or whatever, whatever the scrub day was of EFT1. Yeah. Is when that developed. And then the moment we broke it was chronicled on this show when I told him about the dream that I had in which he had to finally cite us in one of his articles, but he cited us as a fan blog. And it broke my heart.

I woke up, like, upset that that's how he credited us. So what a journey. you know yeah so anyway yeah so Stephen Clark's coming up it'll be great hopefully Starship launch in a few minutes and we'll talk about that next week so we shall probably go and and do that but yes all right it's been great thanks so much for coming back thanks for having me go birds even though you're not a sportser go birds okay still go birds thank you I appreciate that go chickens oh god shake bye bye

No. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, end of death.