Off-Nominal - 213 - This is Why We Playtest (with Adam Wuerl and Rob Davis)

Episode Date: October 3, 2025

Jake and Anthony are joined by Adam Wuerl and Rob Davis, creators of Apogee Board Games (and longtime anomalies!), to talk about their new game, Scoundrels and Pirates Affiliated with Criminal Enterprises.TopicsOff-Nominal - YouTubeEpisode 213 - This is Why We Playtest (with Adam Wuerl and Rob Davis) - YouTubeS.P.A.C.E. - Scoundrels and Pirates Affiliated with Criminal Enterprises by Apogee Board GamesRocket Tier List Rebuttal ※ veridical.netFollow AdamAdam Wuerl (@[e-mail]) - Mastodon※ veridical.netFollow RobThoughts of RobFollow Off-NominalSubscribe to the show! - Off-NominalSupport the show, join the DiscordOff-Nominal (@offnom) / TwitterOff-Nominal (@[e-mail]) - Spacey SpaceFollow JakeWeMartians Podcast - Follow Humanity's Journey to MarsWeMartians Podcast (@We_Martians) | TwitterJake Robins (@JakeOnOrbit) | TwitterJake Robins (@[e-mail]) - Spacey SpaceFollow AnthonyMain Engine Cut OffMain Engine Cut Off (@WeHaveMECO) | TwitterMain Engine Cut Off (@[e-mail]) - Spacey SpaceAnthony Colangelo (@acolangelo) | TwitterAnthony Colangelo (@[e-mail]) - jawns.club 🐘Off-Nominal MerchandiseOff-Nominal Logo TeeWeMartians Shop | MECO Shop

TLS and go for main engine, start. Hello, hello. Happy Thursday. We got a four up today, Jake. Look at us. A four-pack, a quad. Quad-box. You would get that reference.

The other two might get that reference. You will not get that reference. One day we'll have an octobox. And commercials. I was thinking of last week and thinking of this as more of a Corley-off cross. There we go. There we go.

like that. One of my proudest moments last time. Seahawks and Mariners had a game at the same time. I had two TVs with one game in each, and they're both Sony. So I could hit mute. It would mute one and unmute the other. So I could flip back and forth between the simultaneous games.

It's a proud moment. Engineering. It's some production right there. Yeah. These are the kind of advanced projects that you're into. Yeah. Advanced concepts. Yeah.

Muting and unmuting. two Sony flat screens. That's right. Oh, this is before flat screens. Oh. Nice. Okay. So that was an achievement.

Yeah, because now it sounded pretty dumb, but if that's what you're telling me, it was like CRTs, then I understand it. Anyway, Jake, who the hell are these people, by the way? Zero intro. Well, we've got Adam World with us here and Rob Davis, and they are, well, I know Adam's listener. Rob, are you a listener to?

Are you both listeners to this show, or did Adam rope you into this? Adam, Adam, roped me in. I'm not a regular listener, but I started doing some listening, so I knew what we were in for. And I did enjoy the rocket ranking last week, have definite opinions, as Adam does. You both have an idea. Adam to write a blog post, so. Yeah, I was going to say, I don't know if Adams has written a post in a long time, and this was enough to get it.

And, like, pretty fast. Like, there was not a lot of turnaround time on that. So I must have riled something up there. I finished it last night at the Christian Davenford did a book signing at Museum of Flight. So I finished the last bit, the first half of that. Did you, and I noticed we denied your request for comment from us. You know, we took one out of y'all's playbook, and we did not write back to you when you wrote us a question of if we've posted it anywhere. Yeah, I just like a screen grab, but it's fine.

Okay, yeah. Well, good. Can you send me that? because I need to recreate it. We are going to update that. We got some emails, including noted past guest and museum curator in Paul Field, who will probably come back. He doesn't know this yet because I didn't email him and tell him this,

but we're going to make him come back and update that with us. He was out there defending our besmirching of Saturn 5 Skylab, which we'll just, we're going to die on that hill, Jake. That's the one we're dying on. Well, apparently we need to die. on Shuttle Hill too, so that's, we'll get into that. But yeah, well, what are you guys drinking today? You got something fond to share?

You don't go first, Rob? Go ahead, Adam. No, you can. All right. This is an orchid thief, which Rob says, if you Google, you get a terrible recipe. I think the best description is a spicy, hibiscus gin sour. And the fun story for that is COVID times, right? Couldn't go to restaurants anymore.

So they started putting cocktails in those little plastic dishes. So I saw it had a cool name. God, I like orchids. I thought this is one of the most delicious cocktails I've ever had. And I spent the next 12 months trying to figure out what went into it because they would not tell me. So I would just go and I would get there early so I could see the mixing it. It's like, all right, it's got botanical gin. And then they poured a secret sauce in it.

And then they had some firewater bitters. That's the spicy part. So that was easy. I'm like, what is in the sauce? So I asked the bartender. She was super cagey. She was like, yeah, I'm not telling you that. So I just started going through syrup.

in the color and they sometimes garnish them with a hibiscus. And finally I saw hibiscus syrup in a store and I tried that and like nailed it. That's it. So gin. Slufed out. Citrus like lemon lime, little hibiscus, simple syrup.

And a tahin around the rim. Is that how you say it? You speak Spanish. Tahin, yeah. Yeah. Tehine around the room. Delightful. So have you ever gone back to this place? Oh, go back regularly. They don't make this drink anymore, though. The bartender who invented it. She lost sometime in 21. So I have to have you ever.

Have you ever ground truth this and try to figure out if you've got it right? You should sell it back to them. I can't find her. On the opportunity, she's super into space. Maybe she's listening and she can reach out. It seems unlikely. It seems unlikely. Mist connections on the off-nominal podcast.

Me and the bartender that used to make my favorite drink, random-ass place in Washington. World's a big place. Yeah. I don't know what to do with that. What do you got, Rob? I am looking a little lagged. I need to try to get closer to my router.

Yeah, that seems... You seem fine to me. You're good. Okay. Okay. I just don't worry. I am drinking a G&T. This is with elder flower tonic water from fever tree and Huckleberry gin from Glacier Distilling

outside Glacier National Park. Wow. I have to go there for several reasons and drink one of those. That might be the place that I see. stake out and try to make their exact genitone. The Huckleberry gin is spectacular. Yeah. Do you think you got the bartender fired?

No. No. I don't know. I suppose she's on to bigger and better things, you know? I don't know. I think somebody realized that they let the intel out into the public and then they fired this bartender. It's not, it wasn't public knowledge until about five minutes ago, so.

That's true. You're not the first corpute espionage trap when they're happening. on that. That's right. You can't patent recipes anyway. It's not even legal. But if you did get into that kind of thing, you would just, as someone with your past, you would just merge your two favorite restaurants together into one super restaurant and then everybody would go there. Yeah. Deep cut. He used to work at Lockhebock. Like an ANW KFC. I did. Right? Yeah. Or Taco Bell Pizza Hut. Yeah. Pizza Petal Taco Bell. That's the classic. right yeah wow wow all right Anthony what do you got I've got a leaf seeker IPA look at that thing

I'm gonna zoom in on that can because look at that thing leaf seeker it's October it's fantastic the steam boilers if you listen to the pre-show you heard our stories of home renovations including I think I almost blew up my house last night with a steam boiler so that was good all right It's running all right now, so. That's it. We'll see. What do you got there, Jake? I've got a tempus.

Is that showing okay? Yeah, it's good enough. But, uh, yeah, so. Oh, it's mysterious. Yeah, it doesn't say what it is, special reserve, right? Um, the back says, this is funny, it says Scottish style ale. Um, so that's, that's the kind of Mexican beer I'm having today. attracts

Scottish Mexican Yeah All right We need an origin story here For whichever one of you Has the pat down On the origin story What do we got

Of the game? Yeah Well I assume that's more In It's a larger story than just the game Yeah It does all We made it lucky

When we Yeah Yeah Go ahead Yeah so you mentioned that Like my oldest son was about one, just had his first birthday, now in college, if that sets, how far ago this was. So this is like, what, beginning of the Obama administration.

And Rob was from Alabama, moved back to Huntsville. We met, we were both working on FAD at the time, a missile defense program out in Huntsville, Lucky Martin. And so we became friends and working through that. Well, actually, we were working in MKV, remember? That's right. MKV first. The multiple kill vehicle. Yes, that's correct.

And Obama came in and they canceled a bunch of stuff. One of them was our program. I remember watching this press release and be like, hmm, we're going to have to find different things to do with our day. So we joke went from being super busy, working a ton of overtime trying to get ready for this bigger view to like not having enough work to fill the day. So we took all that extra time and we started talking about board games.

We used to play Siv over email, you know, so we had a lot of things. Oh, this is that guy. Oh, yeah, one of them. Okay. Yeah. One of them set up. So we started talking about a board game. We'd always wanted to make one.

And like we started with like what are our goals for a gas space theme, obviously. That was never a question. And then like what are our goals for the game? And that's where we started. And then we like designed the game around like our requirements. If we could be that. Oh, we system engineered it. Yeah, absolutely.

Did you have a water card for it too? Well, Jake, you know, they grew out of the cancellation in the Obama era. So clearly this project. took 20 years to get to the point where it is now because that's how everything in the there was an Augustine commission on your board game multiple children are raised uh I moved back to Seattle Rob moved back to Seattle so yeah uh there were some periods of hiatus where not much happened and then once yes on again yeah but there's once Rob moved back and then we were like together again it was a lot easier to collaborate and like the big sticking point is like honestly

a lot of the rules hadn't changed much but it was like missing art and that was like the last thing when we figured out how to make art for the game that like got it to well okay now we're done now we can finish up and polish it and yeah yeah we also benefited greatly from the fact that as adam's kids got older he suddenly had live-in playtesters and got a lot of additional playtesting cycles in and and his oldest kid carston is the reigning world champion of the game in dutably so this is a mock-up the oldest one made is like a gift he took an old iPad box And he made a cover.

No way. Cover for it. And then with the hubris, it only comes from being one of my children. They put helpers and put their names on the end there. That's awesome. What iPad? Was that iPad third generation with lightning connectors? Oh my gosh.

So old. Yeah. Yeah. So that's actually an Apple prototype box. It was an Apple Newton box. That's from when they started working on the game. I have a bunch of the old cards laying around here that were printed on your old cricket. Oh.

Right, you guys know what that is? Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is, like, very popular now these things. How old was, how old was cricket? I've only learned about this recently. Trying to get the rounded corners and everything, so they would shuffle easy. So hand-making or, you know, printing and cutting out on the cricket. Yeah, that was one of Adam's chores for a few years.

Yes. It's very labor intensive. I mean, the thing was old. I had it in Huntsville, so, like. That's crazy. All right, so now you've got this game. We haven't even told anyone what it's called. So I think we probably should put this up on screen and you should describe to us what we're experiencing in this very long journey.

So the name is space, which we back her name. We actually had a different name, which I like, but then somebody stole it. So it's scoundrels and pirates affiliated with criminal enterprises. So that's the name of the game. We have a board game geek page now. We put that up. It's pretty excited about that. But yeah, I mean, the premise is like there's a little game board.

Rob will describe more of that because he designed the game board. and it has not changed. It's like the only name that never changed since the first prototype. It was a captain of a ship. From square one. Sometimes it happens. You're the captain of a ship.

You start with nothing. You have a ship, the hyper drive, a blaster pistol, and that's it. And things happen in the game. You get encounters that come up, contracts come up,

and you're basically smuggler. You go pick up contracts. You drop them off. You get paid. You get new weapons. You get cool stuff for your ship. You get crew who joins. So it's got a very kind of firefly vibe to it.

Like you just get a job, keep flying sort of thing. And there's ways to fight the other crew members. You can steal their stuff. That's the vibes. Yeah. I think one of the important things to lean on too, Adam, since you're mentioning, you know, intellectual property universes, right, is when we started designing this, they hadn't published really a game like, you know, Firefly or like the Star Wars,

like, out of rim thing, right? And then it turns out those games are really focused on trying to simulate the experience of being in that universe. And that really wasn't what we were going for at all, actually. Like, one of the big system engineering things we talked about up front was like we wanted the most elegant mechanics we could come up with, right? But we really wanted the strong theme that is associated with more traditional American, you know, style board games, right? We didn't want super sparse, like, math with a slight layer of, well, actually, this is about, you know, farming cotton. I don't know. Thinking about, like, whatever Euro game you played that was really boring, right?

I have some that I'll fault if we want to go there. So, like, you want to tear rank? No, there's no money. Sorry? You want to tear rank it? We can do other. We can tear rank them. We could.

We could. We absolutely could. You know, we want to say no money. You don't want to get paid in money. You don't want to be counted. lots of little chits you don't want to be counting hyperdrive crystals and all this mess that would be you know very similitude for how a particular fictional universe works we really wanted to focus on that feeling of climbing a slippery pole and like you know not being able to trust that you're even working for the

right guy you know and there's no rewards to loyalty if you've chosen the wrong master so you know how do you navigate that kind of crazy situation um so yeah that's you know less of a less of a of, you know, being Mao Reynolds or Han Solo and really more of this actual textured experience of trying not to be the bottom guy on the heap at the end. With whimsy, you know, a lot of, there's not a whimsy in the world anymore. So like this is, there's jokes. Like we reference Firefly, but like, there's a, there's a JZ joke in there. Yeah. Yeah. wide-ranging reference. If you don't understand, if you think there's not a reference,

it's just probably too obscure. We swear it's a good reference. Some of them are very obscure. We swear it's a pop culture reference. Yeah, I swear it's a reference. And so you've, all right, so you said you've worked this, you had the system worked out for a long time. Art was a hold-up,

and now you are producing an actual thing that doesn't involve you doing manual labor. Is that what I'm looking at right here? That's correct. Turns out there are machines that exist and companies who print board games. And that was another big. We reached out to a couple publishers and had interest in the like two fell through for totally random reasons.

One, the company just like imploded on itself for reasons that have nothing to do with this because we weren't involved with them yet. And what was the other one, Rob? I don't remember. They were just like, the company that you're getting involved with. I don't know, man. We probably shouldn't. We probably shouldn't name names.

But the other one is a fairly significant, like no name. but they were getting bought and we had sent by prototype and everything just got lost in the shuffle of getting bought. I imagine whoever we were working with left the company and so nobody cared anymore and it's the kind of thing that happens. And so that was where

like, oh, if you get a development company then they'll have an artist and they can finish the game and they're like, okay, we're going to have to do it ourselves and Rob found a company. It's actually in Vancouver, Washington. Sorry, not BC. And that's where it's getting printed and both that meant we had to finish it ourselves and make sure we had enough money to do the initial run.

So we just finished the closed of pre-orders and just placed the first order. So we should have everything in the next couple of weeks. We have extra inventory if you know, you didn't know and you want a copy. We're happy to sign one. So how much, how much of like, I mean, this this obviously sounds very kind of space fantasy-esque in a way. But like how much of like real world space stuff do you end up having leak into this game? Like, you know, just from from being fans, from your jobs, from whatever, right? I'd say it's a game and it's meant to be fun.

There is one. So it's nothing like work. Yeah, it is nothing like work, with the exception that there is one very important fact about space that is at times extremely salient and it is the fact that space is big. Is it hard also? Sometimes. Nothing happens at hard to think so. Like if you like board games, like people who like to play board games, you pick it up super fast, right? Like my eyes find a huge like nerdy board game person.

So she's like, there's a lot happening right here. And the kids are like, uh, it's fine. So. Can you, next time you do a print run of boxes, can you blurb me on the box with the quote, space is not hard? Just troll everybody out there that knows that I hate the phrase. I understand your hate for the phrase. It seems like an excuse us.

Lots of things are hard. Making iPhones are hard. We make lots of iPhones. It's fine. I'm reminded of the line from Christmas vacation when she's like, Grandpa, he worked really hard on it. And he's like, so do washing machines. Like, that's how I feel. That's my vibe on it.

I think the addition of that blurb will be a great way to tell first run from second run. Yeah, it's true. Yeah, I love being in the real world. Yeah. Yeah. And so that'll be good when that rolls around in 2046. I'll be pumped to see that on the second edition that you guys have been working on.

All right. Now that you know, I'm giving you so much shit, but you know how many stupid projects I've never released. You know, I think personally, probably, like,

it's so much dumb shit that I worked on that's not out there. So I give you credit for making a thing with physical atoms, which I've never done. Yeah. There's so much work once you think you're done to,

which like anyone who started anything knows this, but like, oh, you got a kind of company, you file paperwork, and you're going to make a website and you got to, you know, anyway. Lots of long-tail activities that are incredibly time-consuming, especially if you don't make websites for a living, which we do not.

I still don't. Adam is totally responsible for the cool website. I feel like this one of those. I tell him things I've troubleshoot and he's like. Whatever. Go ahead. Is that a JVZ reference or is that the thing that you're working on? Yeah.

The last like the last 5% of the board game project to like get it sold feels like must be like the hardest one. Like just the aligning all of those work streams and just the last last little. I mean, it's true for any project, right? But it feels like a board game would be exactly one of those things because you have a mix of all the software and hardware and operate. Like everything, it's got everything, right? So it's like. Yes. Yeah, I feel like that's how it is.

That is what makes a day job fun. like real things in the real world. Yeah. All the enormous quality assurance. Boy, if I ever, if I ever look down on a quality guy, I take it back, right? I take it back in space. Yeah. You get hung up by the silliest things.

Can you talk actually about playtesting? Because this is actually kind of fascinated me about any kind of game design. It's like the, I feel like, because game play play play is in a sense. it's like very non-deterministic. Like every time you play it, it's going to go down a different path. And so you can't always like reliably test. Like you change one mechanic, you know, in a game.

You can't reliably just say like, did it make the game better? Like you kind of have to play it like a thousand times and then see if you, if you like it more. Right. It's funny. It's funny because, um, so I have really vivid memories of when Adam and I were like sitting down at his dining

table very, very early in the process. and trying out some mechanics. And originally the concept, like, we had not landed on the whole, you know, smuggler working for competing nefarious organizations that are all trying to, you know, race each other. And instead, like, we, I don't know, we had some sort of like 4X kind of idea of like, oh, you will want to design your own spaceships and, you know, they'll fight. And, like, I mean, it was, you know, one of my big things that I look for when I'm looking at

the back of a box is like, does this feel like they designed a computer game and then just accidentally made it a tabletop game instead. Because that's not fun for me, right? And so we sat down with some of these mechanics and started testing them out. And I remember within just like two minutes of like stepping through comma, we said, well, this is totally broken and this is a complete waste of time. Nope, we're never doing this. And it was a huge pivot from there.

You remember it too. Yeah. Mm-hmm. So, yeah, little chits and moving things around. As we have in the chat, we have a great, a great, great, quote for you in the chat, which is this is why we play test. So that's another one that comes back around. You're totally right, Jake.

Like you learn stuff, but it's hard to know, you tweak this, but you could play five games and that card could never come up or whatever, right? So there's little tricks. Like when the kids got old enough that they're like, you know what I want, a character named after me? You're like, sure, we can do that. So they come up with their abilities, right? And they're the most opi thing you can possibly imagine.

So you're like, okay, we'll play a game where you get your O.P. character and you just start with them, right? So you don't have the random luck of the draw. And you're like, do you see how that ruined everything? And I'm like, oh, yeah, it's too good. It's like, all right. So you down it back a little bit. So there's ways to like reduce the chance for the purposes of science or whatever. But we played a lot and it helped a lot. Another one that comes to mind like a very discreet design choice, you know, because you can say, okay, is turn order always the same or does it change somehow, right? Right. And we experimented with would you? So there's a first.

player token, right? And we experimented with, would you pass first player to the left or would you pass it to the right? And like playing just a few, I think we just played a few rounds each way. And it was immediately clear that like, well, one of these ways works and the other one is a complete disaster. It's so subtle. Please explain. That doesn't, yeah, I'm trying to. Yeah. It was because you go first and then last or last than first. It was the emergent. It was the emergent. phenomena of it. I don't, Adam, do you, how would you? But are you, when you pass it the direction, you're, you're going opposite, you're either going with or opposite the direction of turns, right? So you're passing it to, you become second or you become last as the. Correct. So we're playing. It's like,

your first, second, third, four, so you move in order, right? Well, if you're fourth, then you pass the token the other way, then next turn, you're first. So like, there's this mechanic where you can go visit the dockyard. Like, if you don't have anything to do, you need to soup up your ship. You You go to the dockyard. It's a safe place. You hang out. You could attract extra cards. You can trade.

But it ends your turn. The other thing it does is if there's no like contracts on the board, you know, one gets revealed. Well, you go first next turn. So there's this natural thing where if you're going last and you have nothing better to do and there's no contracts, go to the dockyard, reveal a contract, then you have the initiative on the next turn and you can go get it. So like, but that mechanic totally breaks if you have the turn order backwards. So like there's all these situations like that.

And there's something that's sort of relatively. new rule of where you can, you know, steal contracts and people right at the point of the delivery. Like, you're hanging out outside the bar and they're bringing in, you know, the hallucinogenic spices. And you're like, yep, we knew we're here. We're waiting. And you ambush him and you steal it. But you have to have the right initiative for that to work. So it gives you a chance to like, well, if you know you're going to ambush, you can weigh a little bit and then you'll have an initiative. And, you know, so those are like two tangible examples. But they just totally break if you do the other order. Like the mechanic is just gone completely. We also encountered this with the

combat rules, and this is where space is big becomes so important, right? Because the rules for initiating combat are totally driven by, like, orbital mechanics, actually. Not that you have to do any orbital mechanics, but it's really just based on the principle that if you got to the planet first, you're going to be able to tell when the other guy arrives, right? Whereas, if you're out in space, well, space is huge. People don't even have to try to hide. They're just going to be really far away. So it actually takes more work to try to intercept someone in space than it does to ambush them, right? Because if you get there first,

physics is on your side. Gravity well choke points, yeah. That's right. Yeah, you just wait. Best place to shoot someone is when they're going down or coming up. Yeah, so another big simplification we made is there are like different phases in the game. You know, you draw cards. It kind of sets the vibes of the turn.

And then we had this thing we called upkeep where like everyone's kind of ships got repaired and you got healthy and then you'd move and then you'd deliver contracts. And I just remember over the course, we used to play a lot with the folks east work with the spaceflight when I first moved back to Seattle. And that second phase was just so boring. It was like, everyone would just go around and like, all right, flip all your things over and like kind of reset the board.

And you just kind of fly through it. And it just felt so perfunctory, like in the play. And I remember sending Rob a note being like, you know, the last few times we played, something seems wrong with upkeep. And I was like, what if we just got rid of it? And he was like, well, how would that work? Because then your ship would be busted ass all the time.

And we're like, wait a minute. Hell yeah. Your ship being busted ass all the time and flying around the galaxy with its sputtering gas out the back is totally the vibe we're going for. Let's try it. Yeah, it's better. Right. Why am I always hurt?

Exactly why. You do. You'll end up with a character because everybody can get injured before they're like, you know, really out of play, right? And so you'll have somebody, you know, one of your crew members will be struggling with like a limp for half the game because you just never have time to find them a damn doctor. Right. That's the vibe. You got some busted-ass hyper driver on your ship and you just can't fix it, you know, unless you have an engineer in your ship and then it's very easy to fix things.

Couldn't find them doctor was the least Obama era administration thing you could possibly have injected in this game. No wonder. He released this eight years later, I guess. Yeah. No free health care in space. No free health care in space. Or in America anymore. Yeah. That sounds awesome.

Honestly, I always love games that have a little bit of like, games that you can't, you can't play perfect are fun to me. Like, that you can't just, you can't get so good at it that you can, that, you know, there's no limit to how good you can get because there's always something wrong and something to fix and something, you know, I like that. Those were some of our very first, like, high-level requirements. You know, we wanted no player elimination. And we wanted the whole thing to be about navigating a shifting opportunity landscape.

So not just like, I have my strategy. I sit down. I build up. I attack left. Right. We didn't want to reward that. We wanted to make it so that, you know, you just had to do the best you could with, you know, a really fluid situation and try to maximize your opportunity.

your opportunities as you go and make good, good tactical calls about when is it time to change loyalties? When is it time to, you know, keep my word and when is it time to break it? And I think it definitely gives it a different, it gives it a different temperature for sure when you're playing. Like it doesn't, it doesn't feel like it's just about, you know, trying to get to a certain number of cargo deliveries. It doesn't feel like that to me.

Yeah, there's not a lot of rolling. I mean, there was more earlier and we went to a more. Yeah, we did a lot of work to get rid of rolling too, yeah. Yeah. Axis and allies chess sort of thing where it's like you have weapons and they have weapons. And once you know that, you just count quickly. And then like, that's the damage everybody does. And there was rolling before and it just added a lot of tedium to it and too much luck.

Right? It's actually kind of cool that you can see you look over the other person's ship and like, do you have a laser over there? Then I'm not going anywhere close to you because I can't do anything about. that. And so a lot of times, you know, there's there's not fighting, but it's the threat of fighting that colors what everyone does in the game because you're like, well, I know I can't beat you. You've got a fact stack of med kits over there, I think. So that's just hopeless. I need another strategy. And you're kind of constantly having to evaluate it, which is why you don't know how

you're doing until the end, but like Carson is the better player and he normally wins because he's just very good at all these little machinations. It's very annoying to the rest of us. what was the gun from the expanse like the rail gun or whatever what was the thing that they had that was like it was just a rail gun right they flipped the ship and it was like obliterating everybody else that one was

that was the OP thing that that that injected in like anyone comes here us to turn everything off roll this thing and just Gatling gun them to death yeah yeah you have that card sometimes something I need that I should have got that this weapon

really nicely yeah yeah it was good yeah sometimes something you can be fun in small doses so so one of the other one of the other things is that there are these things called bribes so when you start rising in reputation and become an actual significant contributor to one of these criminal organizations they'll give you something a little sweet on the side to help you out down the way and you might have the opportunity to fake your own death or frame someone else for something or get some really sweet, extremely illegal tech, right? But, you know, some of this stuff might also only be something you get to do once and you better, you better time it right, you know? That's really the key. It's like the bribes you get are kind of random, right? They're just

cards you drop from the deck, but knowing how to play it and positioning yourself to be able to use that bribe, right? If you've got a movement bribe, well, you get to put yourself in a situation where movement is going to be the wind you the game. If it's a, you know, may like, combat bribe, then you got to put yourself in a situation where you can use that. And the thing that's going to win it for you is, is combat. And, you know, that's what, that's what, that's what, that's what, that's what, that's what Carson's get at. Carson shot first.

That's the situation here. Yeah, that's right. He's your cautious. He waits till the end and it swoops in. Yeah, the, the character with the, uh, the shoot first, ask questions later ability is definitely my daughter. Um, she's got an ability called F this noise. And basically, if she gets in a brawl situation,

she gets a free round of just peep, pooh, pew, pew, pew, at anything she can see. Because that's, if you knew my daughter. Checks out. Yep. Yeah, so all three of the kids have their own, have their own characters whose abilities. Track with their personalities, let's call it that way.

All right. And they know this, or are they? Oh, yeah, they were heavily involved. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. And actually, there are blank cards included. We realize the fun of being able to make your own stuff is,

definitely part of it. Maybe you're writing pencil because it's harder than it than it sounds to come up with a good card that's not O.P. You can ink it after 10 games. There you go. Yikes. How about these these syndicates?

How did you come up with these names and logos? Yeah, tell us some of the lore here. Give me some lore, yeah. Oh, man. Well, yeah. So, okay. I think the first syndicate name that I came up with was definitely Smyorka, which do we know the reference?

The name, the word sounds familiar and I'm blanking on what it actually is. Is it like a, like a helicopter or a boat or something? No, it means good old number seven. Okay. All right. Good old number seven. It's the R7. It's Soyuz, guys.

Semiurka, okay. Oh, yeah, that's, that's what I was thinking it is. It's, yeah, it's the actual name of the R7, isn't it? Yep. they called it good old number seven so we named simyorka after that and it's a you know sort of kind of a russian mafia vibe with what they're doing you know each of these orgs has their own sort of flavor of contracts that they are looking to get delivered to their destinations to implement their nefarious plot right or whatever it is they're up to um let's see so like uh fidanza that was

really conceived as more of, you know, Italian mafia, Kosanostra, you know, what have you. They're more into, they're both in device, but Fidanzas is more in device. Semyorka also has some shadier gun running and stuff going on, I'd say.

Anubis, they are basically like a bond villain. There are a lot of sort of secret military shenanigans going on with them. And then Almacht was more, industrial and technology focused, as I recall. Adam, do you remember any other details to that?

That's basically, I mean, Anubis is obviously an Egyptian thing, but that's more like kind of got a yakuza flare to it in the details. And it was just kind of like, oh, it's Italian. Almock is like the Alex Jones column. Weather projectors, armaments, mind control slugs. The Tcha-coms are the leather projectors and the mind-controls. I'm getting an Alex Jones. They're all mocked.

Yeah. I love it. Yeah. I love it. Yes, it's like a Russian eagles and purple. You know, it was just experimenting around with like different shapes and drawn stuff. Like those are some of the first things that were done with the logos for the, for the syndicates. They didn't change.

The map connections didn't change in a long time. Most of the things being smuggled, you know, it's like you sit down over drinks and you brainstorm. All right, what can we smuggle? You're like, I don't know, alien exotic dancers. How about some hallucinogenic spices? Always spices. control slugs all the spice yeah yeah oh that was another one of the big that was another one of big uh sort of play testing things right although i don't remember if we actually play tested it or just in

trying to work out the math of the engine i identified it as a problem and we we changed but do you remember early on when we envisioned there'd be two classes of deliveries like we thought you'd be working as just some small timer UPS guy doing milk runs and then periodically would do like some really rewarding delivery to pay really well it would really affect your rep and it was like wow that's going to be unfathomably tedious like milk runs are boring and tried barking up that tree right yeah it was like this is yeah you're just wasting everybody's time no one wants a board game where you it's a feels like you're just leveling up for a while it's like no let's cut to the chase straight to the fun

yeah no I had not thought about that in years I remember drawing the map out on my driveway in chalk so I think the kids were out there doing chalk art there were no iPads yet or you know styluses back in there were no iPads yeah

it was a while ago it was barely an iPhone you know the iPhone barely existed I think we're I think I had a 3G I barely existed that's true you did didn't. No. I did not. I had I had like an LG slider that fit in that tiny little inner pocket. Dude, the chocolate? Are you talking about the LG chocolate? No, what was it? Like a LX370?

I was talking to somebody that worked at LG the other day. This show's going places. This is great fully work. We've got props here now. I got a whole box of old shit. Look at this. He pulled out like a check of like old phone. I don't know why I have this. I legitimately don't know why I have this, but it's the dumb thing. I'm picturing somebody with a trench coat, right? Dude, it's even, you're on. You're on point because all these old devices, I don't,

I legitimately don't know why I'm wearing an Apple Watch, but these are in a Rolex box. I don't know why I have a Rolex Xbox. That's amazing. All right, I've got, I've got my original iPhone. There it is. Wow. I have the LG chocolate.

Okay. Yes. Yes, like that. Yeah, it's the chocolate. LG chocolate. Look at that thing. Got a keyboard. That's exactly right.

iPad Mini. iPad Mini. All right, kids. This is what phones look like. Yeah. I think this was my wife's. iPad. Was this the original iPod video?

Wow. Or something? What was that one? Scratch the back is. iPhone 3G, 8 gigabytes of storage on that baby. Why do you have all these? Look at the bezels. You see the bezels on that thing?

their key. Yeah, iPhone 4? And no cracked screens either. 4S. Oh, no, the original one's cracked. The original one. That one's great. This one's shattered. I don't know if you can see that. Yeah. You can't take better care your devices, Anthony. iPhone 4S.

What was the one with the bumper? Oh, this one shows you how good the bumper was. This one is totally blasted. This is the antenna gate phone? Yeah, what was that one? I don't remember. I don't know. Four. Yeah.

There you go. Oh, I got one of these ones. What was this one? A nano? That's a nano. Yeah. I really feel like you should have this collection of the shit.

Yeah, I haven't broken this box out in a while, but I was talking to somebody that works at LG the other day. And I was like, you got a Zoom in there? No, Zoom. No, Zoom's. No Zoons.

The way that you like open that and close that phone with like a flick of the finger. So satisfying. I can tell that you use that phone for real for like a significant right. That was just like I texted on this and I just did this all day. Yeah. Oh my phone is a fidget spinner. Hello, it's Anthony. Go for Anthony.

I don't know, dude. We had a rotary phone in my house growing up around. When you started this working on this game I think you had one in the house too. I still had a landline when we started working on this game. I did not. I think San Jose was my last landline. Which was the number for

a Korean dry cleaner that had gone bankrupt. No, no, no, not the number. We're talking about your phone now, not the syndicates in the game, okay? Yeah. I do feel like we missed an opportunity to have a dry cleaner encounter in the game. Oh. I mean, we do have stuff like, you know, you, oh, you had a long night. with an old flame and you lose some movement because you got a late start the next day or like

yeah you know sometimes there's consequences that sort of thing too and you know it hurts when i pee now i've got an injured crew member right you know but i really feel like yeah we should have we should have thrown in a dry cleaner visit somehow especially since you had that connection expansion i'd forgot about the korean dry cleaner yeah i mean that's really annoying to get Facts calls. Buy movie or something. Yeah, like, you know, somebody calls you and they're like trying really hard to give you a code word to something. And you're like, I don't know.

Activate the winter. Not a cleaner. I don't know what you're looking for. No, I need, you know, I need the blue shirt cleaned, Adam. Yeah, from the white horse. It rides at sunset. Yeah, I don't understand. You're trying to call Harvey.

It's not clear. Yeah. All right. What would you rank in your, give me like a, a. shooting from the hip, ranking of, like, top games that made you fall in love with games enough that you made a game. Ooh. So my big one growing up was Axis and Allies, even though it violates many of the rules here. Like, you have to change the rules, so it's fair.

There's so much money. There's so much bookkeeping. But, like, I play that game more than, more than probably anything else. I put with my dad, so much bonding. Like, over that, I learned how to, you know, not throw dice when you get angry. that took a couple years disappointed a thing so that was my big high school game

of just like getting into board games how much you Rob so this is this is definitely different than answering like my all-time grades list but for me honestly diplomacy really stands out

I loved diplomacy but it also awful to play that with so nobody yeah everybody refused to play with me like I remember that's right And after that, everyone's like, we're not playing diplomacy with you anymore.

Watch your bag. I can't believe you say that tracks. You said it so quickly. Well, he said, even before you said that, he said you would be awful to play that game with. Yeah, he was front running your story there. Yeah. So we, I told you at the beginning, I said we used to play civilization together over email, right? And we have this great game with two friends of ours.

So there are four of us playing this game. So you play a turn, you email it, right? So the game took like two years or something like that? Yeah, I was going to say, what game did you finish first? Space or that game of SIV? I don't know which. Well, when we started, we were playing SIV 3, right? It was SIV 3 when we started.

And then we did play Siv 5 later on two together, I think. But we had this alliance where, like, I built a railroad through his territory, whatever, and I had this massive empire, it's destroying all his friends. It was so much fun. And then I opened the turn one day, and he had, like, stabbed me in the back, cut the empire in half, taking my capital. I was like, I was so legitimately real world angry at him for like three days. Yeah.

I had been planning that for literally months, like laying all the groundwork, getting all the pieces ready. It was a gigantic operation. Yeah. No thanks. So anyway, I play with our other friend Paul now. I'd, uh, Rob fell off the wagon when he had, when he had his kids. The payoff of that kind of maneuvering when you've been playing via email for months is unbelievable. That's crazy.

Yeah. Yeah. Both of us got our big win. I bombed the friends into oblivion and then he dismantled my empire from the inside. How do you do that, though? How do you maintain context in that way? Because if I have a game of Siv going and I, like, go from one weekend to the next without playing, I'm like, I don't remember what I was doing. I might as well start a new game.

And I'm back in the game. I mean, we were doing a turn a day, right? That's great. You did a turn every day in order to keep the pace. Yeah. Which was good. I mean, the maps were huge. So, like, you know, turn might take 15 minutes or something.

Like, so it was a good, nice, and it kept you from spending too much time. You're like, oh, I'm done. Turns over. I can't do anything. Yeah, yeah. Uh-huh. Email it on. Although, I will say, trying to build a wonder.

And you know how one more turn is. And you've got some wonder you really want. It's going to take like 37 damn turns. When those 37 turns are over a month, man, you lose sleep. leap over that wonder. Like, that is rough. You lose sleep. I was fine. I slept like a baby. I was not fine. Yeah. I mean, so those

I had big plans. Yeah, yeah, fair enough. Like games that I like now, small world is fun. We've been playing that recently. You know, we played pandemic. A little two on the nose maybe. But it's fun. That's a cooperative one. So that that's good. We've got a little, little cabinet downstairs. Kids like games. So that's a great part about having kids. You've always got people to play board games with.

Yeah. Yeah. They just knock mine over at the moment. Well, yours is little. Yeah. A couple recent favorites. A design that I am super, super impressed with is Jaws of all things. Has anyone else played it?

I think that was. I have obviously at your house. Yeah. Oh, yeah, we did. Of course. So it is a really successful two-phase thing that really gives you the experience of the movie of like first we have to try to find the shark and people are getting eaten and it's a great big deal and then okay now we found the shark we're going on to the orca we're going hunting out on the water

the shark is attacking the boat um it's fantastic and actually so we went to orcas island for spring break this year um so my six-year-old daughter and we're sitting in the sunroom looking at the water and i've brought jaws we pull it out to play it and we have the most legendary game of jaws we're like I mean, the shark is hurt, but like, you know, two of our people are dead. It's just her. It's down to like Hooper in the water with a hammer. Like, I'm gonna kill this shark. And I'm like trying to soften her like, man, this, the odds on this are not good, kid.

You know, this is a big, big role like, you know, because she doesn't like to lose. And so she's got that dice. She's blowing in her little hand. Like, okay, here we go. Roll that dice. And she gets the shark with that hammer. Man, she was ecstatic, the shriek. Oh God, it lives rent free in my head.

It was one of the best gameplay experiences of all the time. Are we talking about this game? We still talk about it. This game of Jaws? No, not from 1975. No. Oh, that's beautiful. I got to, yeah, look at that thing.

I mean, Jesus. Different Jaws. Yeah. Can't have components like that anymore. Not this? It would be $300. That is tremendous. But no, we are talking about one that was published in the past couple years, I would say.

I got to find that one, I guess. Yeah. But we're talking about this. This is the IP we're talking about. Jaws. Oh, yes. Oh, it's definitely Peter Benchley,

Jaws like Roy Shider in the movie, Richard Dreyfuss in the movie. That's my one that people tell me that I look like is Roy Shider. That's the one that I get sometimes. Yeah. I can see it. I get somewhere between that and Lynn Van Well, Miranda.

If I, oh, that's the range. That's the range. I'm in, yeah. We're on a big Hamilton kick here, so.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I don't hate either of these. I mean, I mean, Jake is giving hoop a little bit. I could see it. Who?

I can see it. Hooper. Richard Dreyfus. Yeah. Oh, okay. I get it. Yeah. Yeah.

The reference went on my head because I've never seen Jaws. You've never seen Jaws. That's great. What's the space movie you've never seen that you're embarrassed to tell us? The space movie. Well, there's bad ones I've never seen. I've never seen. What was that one where they're like dune buggy racing on the moon with like Brad Pitt or

whatever. Dad Astra. Dad Astra. Yeah, I've never seen that one. I've never seen that. Ad Astra? I love that movie. No, Ad Astra was great though. What other kind of movies are there? Have you seen Moonfall? Oh my God. No, I'm thinking of Moon.

You're thinking of Moon, which is a great movie. Moon was good. Moon is properly good. Moonfall is bad good. No, I don't think I've seen Moonfall. How about Star Flight? I mean, you love the never landed or whatever. You would love moonfall. Yeah.

If you want to dust off something really old, now let's talk about, has anyone seen Journey to the Seventh Planet? I thought you were going to say, what was the one you liked, Jake, Journey to the Center of the Earth? What's the thing that you like? The core. The core. I thought I don't know why that was called the Journey to the Center of the Earth for me. I mean, the Corps is at the Center of the Earth? What's the Journey to the Seventh Planet?

What is that? Journey to the seventh planet. It's very jarring. He's putting your shirt right now. What's the guy's name? I know. He's like totally off brand here. John Agar is in it. And it's a bunch of like Danish people who are badly dubbed. And they're going to Uranus.

And like there are mysteriously voluptuous Danish women greeting them on the planet. But then they discover that maybe this stuff is an illusion because they're detecting some sort of like force field. Wow. It feels like. I remember the guys were saying, there's some kind of air. cushion. So then they go through it and realize, oh, whoa, no, we're in this like alien planet situation.

There's some cave. There's some terrifying monster down here that's effing with our minds. Yeah, production values, not high. Great, great theme song over the closing credits. Really terrific. Kind of a lounge singer thing. So you're going to watch the whole movie to get to the one good part. This is my takeaway from that story. Say what?

You got to watch the whole movie to get to the one good part. That's my takeaway. Or you can just watch the credits on YouTube. is worth it in itself. Rob has very like a dumbbell taste in things. Great, but then you love some awful, awful things. It just blow my mind. This movie sounds like one of those. Definition of that. I've never heard that as the...

Sci-Fi on the sci-fi dune. Rob was a big fan of that. It was awful. Yeah, that little miniseries from early 2000s. It was incredible. Drek. what do you think is a thing that would not hold up if you went back and watched it? Like something that you think is, your brains like that was so good.

And then you would go back and watch it. That's probably not that good. I kind of wonder about Armageddon? Oh. You watched that recently, didn't you, Jake? Oh, wow. Yeah. I haven't watched Armageddon recently.

I recently watched Deep Impact, and it was real bad. That's what you watched. Yeah. Very, very bad. Those are basically contemporaneous, right? Yeah, yeah, they both came out The two Astrid movies So that's interesting

Because I remember liking Deep Impact at the time But I haven't watched it Yeah, I liked it a lot When it came out And I watched it did not hold out And it was like, whoa It's not good

It's not good Even at the time I remember thinking The shuttle can't do that Do you know what held up unexpectedly well What a perfect time for a pause Right, seriously

What is it called? Maroon I've never heard of it Maroon Maroon. Maroon. I don't know that movie. Yeah.

So it was sort of an Apollo 13 thing, right? It was like they debated in the late 60s, I guess. And it was, oh, these astronauts are stranded in orbit and we have no way to rescue them. We've got to find a way to rescue them. Which sounds like a, you know, it could be a pretty pulpy premise, but it's actually really well executed. When did this come out? He said it was an Apollo 16, or Apollo 13th thing.

It was November 10, 1969. They were like on it. They were, they wasted no time. Literally. Apollo 13 hadn't happened. That's what I mean. Yeah. So they were just totally on it.

Yeah. It was life-initating hard. Yeah. Paul 13 is a good movie. That one ages well, I'm sure. I haven't seen it in years. I guaranteed ages. It ages well.

Gracefully. Yeah. Unlike Capricorn 1, which is stupid movie, but hilarious at the same time. Unjustingly maligned. I really like passengers. I love passengers. Which one's that? I haven't seen it.

That is Chris Pratt and Jennifer Lawrence. Jennifer Lawrence. It's good. It's actually really good. Yeah, I like that one a lot. Yeah, he's on like a generation ship and wakes up. It's pretty old.

I remember watching it. I was just like I was on TV. So this is like the actual version of idiocracy. Is that what we're doing here? In passengers? Yeah, that's the theory. Like he falls asleep for a while. and wakes up when he should instead of like they forgot about him and well he's alone on the ship though

right so everyone else is in cry asleep and he wakes up when he's not supposed to so he's alone on this ship and he's got 20 years or something before he's supposed to land and it's just like him going crazy and figuring what to do and eventually she joins him and like you know obviously they develop this relationship i would also try to find the pod with jennifer lawrence in it as well that's probably what i would try to let's just like have a good no no no more spoilers for that movie you just need to go watch it. It's good. That was an era though. That mid-10s era, I feel like, was a really hit or miss patch, right? We had gravity was in and around that time, which was a hot mess. It's okay. Oh, it's terrible. You should go back and watch that one. It's a

terrible movie. I like gravity. That was the one that triggered me the most as a space nerd of like, this is terrible. This is a horrible movie that is completely nonsensical. You can't fly from ISS to Tyeongg on a fire extinguisher, whatever she had. This is a ridiculous concept. You shockingly get that a lot of work. And the debris wouldn't come back around. It wouldn't be back at you 90 minutes later if it was moving a different speed than you. I was very annoyed at that.

Like, why can't we do this? Orbital mechanics? Can't just do 70 degree plane changes whenever you want? No? I love suggestions like, well, why don't we just shoot it into the sun? Yeah. Yeah, I mean, sometimes it's a good question, but mostly not. It turns out.

That's a lot of Delta V, guys. That's a lot of Delta V. Yeah. Oh, you know what? Okay, so movies that, well, forget about not holding up. It was trash to begin with. Did anybody else see Mission to Mars? Oh, yeah.

That's the one of the weird sandworm things, right? Yeah, yeah, and the face. Yeah, terrible movie. Yeah. No. I wanted that one to be good, too. I was really bitter about that. That came out in like 2000.

2000, exactly. If you really want to punish yourself. It's a rough time. I mean, imagine, imagine like M&M's floating in zero gravity in a vaguely formed double helix and somebody saying, that looks like human DNA. Let's do a quick check on what you think the tomato meter is at for mission to Mars. On that description alone, 23%. Oh, shit, dude.

That's exactly. my guess, Adam. It's 23 exactly. I had not looked that up. Yeah, it's 23 exactly. I did not look it up, I promise. No, I didn't either. I was thinking 23.

As soon as she said it, it was like, 23. Thanks. There's so many bad movies that get made. I'm still annoyed the challenge isn't on Rotten Tomatoes. That's the one I want to know. The challenge was the movie that they made by going to the ISS, the Russian movie. with the actress that went up with the director who went up

and uh we could have had a cool Tom Cruise movie if you guys didn't get it killed yeah much like your bartender we tanked that one so do you know the story Rob Apollo 17 was it Apollo 17 or

it wasn't 18 Paul 18 was one Apollo 18 was a movie Paul 17 happened yeah it was a real 17 the goats. Yeah. Yeah, no, not yeah.

Apollo 18. Thank you. Apollo 18 was like they, they were actually what, there were zombies or something. It actually happened, but they covered it up. It turned out that there had been a secret Russian landing

and there were some things. Yes. Surrounding that. Yes. I mean, it's a creature feature. Yeah, it's not, you know. That was a, it's a good premise to start.

for all mankind with that's true that shows great yeah yeah it is so easy to explain like i i've talked to a couple of people about it who'd never seen it and like what's it about it's like the russians landed on the moon first like all right i got it yeah yeah exactly show so good yeah it's a sea dragon 40 years of good old number seven achieving things that's right all right so before we're done here worst thing about for all mankind is the that souped up nuclear space shuttle. Oh my God. Terrible.

Lay off the space shuttle, man. Geez, slowly. Well, no, it's, nothing has enough propellant volume on anything that they do. There's that. No, no, except for Sea Dragon.

Well, that's a thing. That's why I give science fiction movies a pass, right? If I'm going to require every science fiction movie, obey the laws of physics, it'd be super boring because everything's really slow. Space is big. It's like, nobody wants to watch that.

I'm here to be entertained. Like, give me, you know, 65 million. Regular space movies would be immensely complex and high risk. Is that what you're saying about space movies? Is that your take on space movies? That would be shocking if that was your take. Well, well played.

It's possible to build, you know, some sort of architecture. That's too complicated. Yes. Sometimes they have wings and external tanks and solid rocket boosters. Sometimes? Yeah. Next time I promise will tier rank nuclear powers. shuttle. We'll put that in the list.

Okay. Oh, maybe you should do that. Maybe we should do, yeah, maybe we should do a movie spaceship to your ranking, Jake, once we finish the other one. All right, sounds good. Rob's going to do that weird ship from 2010 in there. Oh, yeah.

Old a Lillian. I love Jupiter or whatever. Yeah. That's a great movie. No, it's a great movie. That's okay. Hey, do anyone, is any, if anyone's listening, do they have any say over their life if they

can get this game in their life or not? Or are they screwed? They do. If they go to Apogeebogames.com, they can contact us to order. We can ship as soon as we've got our stock. That apagyboardgames.com,

people. Design a whole other logo for that. So that was like a whole load project. Yeah. Branding, man. It's a time sync. Yeah. Pretty excited how it turned out.

It's like the Washington State University logo. They got like WSU hidden in the, hidden in the cougar. First time I saw it, the FedEx logo has a spoon in it. Yeah, exactly, with the arrow hidden. It's basically as good as the FedEx logo. That's what, I think that's what you're saying. I agree.

Probably costs a lot less. Probably. It's accurate, yeah. That is accurate. But yeah, there's a button on there. It'll send us an email. and then we'll contact folks if they're interested. We have some extra stock.

We bought extra stock, so we're going to start doing, you know, game nights at local game shops and trying to get them, you know, games out in the wild and invite your friends over to play. And then they'll want a copy. And that's how you spread word of mouth. Oh, yeah. That's right. That's how we get to a second edition with a blurb on the back, right? About how space is not hard.

That's right. A couple presidents from now will be in business. Yeah. You want to blurb. You got to help sell out of inventory. All right. This is it. Get out there, anomalies.

Get out there. Hey, thanks for hanging out with these guys. You're great and you put up with our bullshit. And Rob was completely not ready for this, I think, which is great. Because now we know he's the goat. So that's what we want. With occasionally bad taste of movies. Yeah, yeah.

Perpetually exquisite taste. I think you mean. Can work on the movie, guys. You can work on that. Yeah. All right, y'all. I love Star Trek 5. Not going to be ashamed.

We're going out on that. That's the way to end this show, Jake. We won't get any email. There will be no email this week because of that take. I don't even know which one that is. It's Apollo 17. It's Apollo 17, yeah. All right, y'all.

We'll see you later. Bye. Bye, everybody. Take care. Thanks. Bye. 2345-5-4-321, end of death.