Off-Nominal - 249 - Peeing Out Your Bones (with Ethan Barajas and Jamie Palmer)

Episode Date: July 24, 2026

Jake and Anthony are joined by Ethan Barajas and Jamie Palmer, co-founders of Icarus Robotics, to talk about—what else?—robots in space! Topics Off-Nominal - YouTube Episode 249 - Peeing Out Your Bones (with Ethan Barajas and Jamie Palmer) - YouTube Icarus Robotics Icarus raises $6.1M to take on space’s 'warehouse work' with embodied-AI robots | TechCrunch Voyager and Icarus Team Up on ISS Robotics Demo Astrobee - NASA Orbital hopping maneuvers with Astrobee on-board the International Space Station - ScienceDirect NASA: Let’s Ketchup on International Space Station Tomato Research - NASA The Case of the Missing Space Tomatoes - YouTube Follow Ethan and Jamie Ethan Barajas | LinkedIn Jamie Palmer | LinkedIn Follow Off-Nominal Subscribe to the show! - Off-Nominal Support the show, join the Discord Off-Nominal (@offnom) / Twitter Off-Nominal (@[e-mail]) - Spacey Space Follow Jake WeMartians Podcast - Follow Humanity's Journey to Mars WeMartians Podcast (@We_Martians) | Twitter Jake Robins (@JakeOnOrbit) | Twitter Jake Robins (@[e-mail]) - Spacey Space Follow Anthony Main Engine Cut Off Main Engine Cut Off (@WeHaveMECO) | Twitter Main Engine Cut Off (@[e-mail]) - Spacey Space Anthony Colangelo (@acolangelo) | Twitter Anthony Colangelo (@[e-mail]) - jawns.club 🐘 Off-Nominal Merchandise Off-Nominal Logo Tee WeMartians Shop | MECO Shop

TLS and go for main engine, start. Go at throttle up. Negative return. Hello, Jake. It's quad box today. Quad box, four square. We got it. We got it.

What an app that was. The app to check in? I'm the mayor of Off Nominal, Jake. They're back, by the way. Foursquare's back. They keep emailing me. I don't know what it's for, but they're in there. Did you check in on them?

No, no, I'm not touching that. For the true nerds, we'll remember Gawala. Gawala was the goat, Jake. Goala. I've only seen that in legends. Shit, we're the old ones today. This is now the second conversation in the last five minutes. It's not made me feel like a very young person, so this is good.

Thank you very much. The voice you're hearing there is Ethan Barajas. How's it going? Going awesome. We're excited to join you guys today. And we got Jamie Palmer on the line. How's it going down there? going, folks.

Look at you. You're not that far away from each other. You're like, you're in separate rooms but near each other. Is that right? Yeah, we're both in the office here. We're based in the Brooklyn Navy Yard. I think he's on the first floor. I'm on the second floor.

Nice. All right. Good stuff. Good stuff. Well, you made Jake nervous about robots at the ISS, so welcome. Yeah, we're excited to talk about robots and how you guys probably have a very cool product. but I mean, it's probably, it's probably, you know, like not quite as good as what we build up in Canada, but I imagine it's pretty good.

You know, I imagine it's not a bad little system you guys are working on. So I'm excited to dig into it. I'm excited for our robot to, you know, get on the $5 bill here in the U.S. You know, that's right. Hell yeah. That's what I'm talking about, yeah. Can you name the first one Abe in an effort to get on the $5 bill? We should.

It's actually named. joy after a blade runner. That's the first robot. Hell yeah. Yeah, right. Did you develop a whole line of names? Are you,

how far out are we working? Or is that this, you're doing it one at a time? We've been doing it one at a time. Okay. We've got so, we had some pretty bad names in the past. We've had some pretty good names.

And yeah, we spent a lot of time thinking about. Initially, the company wasn't even called Acorous. It was called ORA robotics because we were embodying our, I was in space. I remember someone said it back to me and Ethan,

our stomach's turned. We were like, we cannot build a company as cool as this and call it aura. This is terrible. Yeah, it's not good aura. Yeah. No,

bad aura. Awesome. Did you bring any drinks with you today? Do you got anything fun to share? Well, I think we do. I think we do. So we've gone for today.

I don't know if you can see that. Oh, yeah. IPA, very on team. Very on team. We'll go ahead and we'll get into these as we go. What do you guys have today? I've got a summer love.

So there you go, very thematic. There we go. It's been a big baseball time down here in the Philadelphia area. Did not go to Home Run Derby. It was way too expensive, but it was in Philadelphia. Jake doesn't have any pins about Home Run Derby. Couldn't be found dead at a Home Run Derby. Derby.

Don't know where it is. Is that race cars? I can tell you. Yeah, so I have a friend here who's Brazilian and they went home for a trip last week and brought me back this stuff. I can't say it. I've tried to pronounce it like a hundred times. But if you're Brazilian, you'll know what this is. It's like they're kind of like rum, but it's like a fermented sugar cane stuff.

Carri. I'm not going to be able to do it. What does that say on it? I don't know. It's got a bunch of weird Brazilian letters. So I don't really know what it's like that. That is the tiniest bottle you've ever had on the show. I know.

The man known for large bottles. He brought the little airplane liquor bottle. So I made it. This is the traditional, someone in the chat will help me out here. But this is the traditional cocktail you make with it. So you put like a little bit of lime in the bottom with some sugar. And then you just pour a rice and mix it around. That's all it is.

So it's like a really simple kind of thing. But it's really nice. It's a different taste than rum. I like it. Soccer team was drinking too much of that and got bounced early. That's what happens. they had the big bottles yeah they had that full size bottles whenever we come back we'll have to decrease the size of our our drinks they're comically large everybody comes tiny little yeah

airplane bottles only yeah yeah cool awesome well i mean let's let's dig into it guys i'm excited to hear maybe just kick us off with like the pitch right so you're here with icarus robotics what the heck is icarus robotics and what are you guys making yeah on orbit robotics for space station maintenance and logistics and then eventually orbital ops so our very first robot just attacks you know a few core problems right now astronauts they cost a lot of money to keep alive it's about $130,000 an hour it's kind of ridiculous and most of it actually isn't in the cost to get them there it's all the training it's all the ops mission control quarterbacking them through the day now upmass has been decreasing in cost over time and so when you have an asset like that you don't

want them unpacking cargo bags and doing seal inspections and just keeping this like 30 year old Toyota Corolla International Space Station running, right? You, uh, you want them to be doing the things that like generate revenue. And so we're in this like weird transition period where like the ISS is going away. You have the commercial stations launching, you know, now that CLD is back. Um, thanks, Jared for that. That's pretty cool. It almost wasn't there. We'll unpack that later. Yeah, thanks, Jared. But you said that was about the passion that they brought it back with. You were like, it's back.

I don't know. It's back. You know, make about what you will. You still don't know what it looks like. You know, there's no RFP out or anything. Like, we'll see how it shapes up. But I do think, like, super key for America to just not have another shuttle situation or you just can't get to Leo or can't have astronauts in Leo.

I think that's a foothold we shouldn't give up. And I think some. some folks came to their senses on that one. But the commercial entity is taking it over from NASA, they just, they can't foot that bill. They have to be generating revenue. And if their astronauts, you know, every 90 days are moving three and a half tons of cargo, you're killing your customer interaction and how many payloads you can move. And so we're deploying with the folks over at Voyager to the ISS National Lab with the NASA like astronauts and everything, Q1, 2027 for full-scale ops, moving around those cargo bags, taking care of some of those maintenance and logistics bits.

and doing some of that science. And actually, even more exciting is in about 40-ish days here, 45 days, we'll be doing a parabolic flight, testing the robot out in six degrees of freedom beyond just lab tests for the first time. So that'll be really awesome. That's kind of crazy. Is that ever been done on a zero-g flight? That's all going to be some weird pictures.

Yeah, I don't think anything like this has ever quite been done on a zero-g flight. It's, you know, we joke. It's like an over 20 degrees of flight. freedom in this system. It's quite an unusual thing to get going. So yeah, we're having to do some kind of clever things on the zero G flight to make it work. And I know there's definitely people look at it and think it's a little bit crazy, but, you know, I think we can pull it off and it should be pretty exciting. I think the other thing with the zero G flights too is do you guys know that company zero G, the one that did all the American flights? That plane isn't definitely grounded.

Yeah. Since September of last year, they haven't been flying. And so we had to work with a bunch of different partners to be able to even do these tests. So we started working with some of the folks over at NRC in Canada, the National Research Council over there, Canadian Space Agency. Chris Hadfield actually helped connect us to them and get us set up. So another national treasure for you guys, just like Canada are. I'm sure it was actually just espionage for our cool robot test. You can carry on. Don't let them touch the robot.

Yeah, exactly. they're going to be taking a little too many photos. But the other folks as well are the folks over at Star Lap, the people make in the station. They said, hey, we got a plane. We're running out of Switzerland, come, you know, and test the robot out in Switzerland. And so we've had to work with. A sentence you literally can't say no to. No one would say no to that sentence.

Fly to Switzerland, test a robot on a plane that I have. All right, I'll be there. No problem. Yeah. So those are going to be a lot of fun, and there'll be some pretty cool videos coming out of it. And this is, did I pull up the right screen here? This is, this is Joy. Yeah, so Jimmy can tell you more about the new one, but this is one of the old context.

Let me keep his return for the new one. Yeah, so. Maybe put on the home page of your website, if I could provide some real-time fees. Wait and see you. I don't think, we've got a pretty good rebrand coming. I don't think this is Joy. It's an abstraction of joy, you know. It's like it helps you imagine joy.

But yeah, we have a thankfully, thankfully, you know, we do have a pretty cool rebranding coming as well. You know, I think I have a personal love for the old branding too, but there's some exciting stuff. And the new version of joy will be front and center on the new website. But the new joy is quite cool. So it actually has eight thrusters. It's laid out really nicely in terms of you have to balance the sort of mass and inertia

of this kind of very unusual. dynamic system that's going to be going into microgravity. We have two high degree of freedom robotic arms on the front of it that can do human-like tasks in kind of a very high dexterity way. And you can control this with a human operator, get the human brain behind the wheel of the robot in the same way that you go to a construction site and you can have like a human behind, you know, the caterpillar or you can go, you know, somewhere else and have a human behind a heavy piece of machinery.

We're getting the human intelligence behind the wheel of the robot. That robot's going to learn from that. And then we're going to build fleets of autonomous robots. for the space industry. So the new one, the new one is pretty cool. I've never personally, I'm pretty big into robots. I've spent a lot of time looking at a lot of robots, and I've never seen one that looks like ours. So I'm going to be pretty excited to share the work that all the team and also have been working on. So what is like, I'm, I like to zero in on like the actual operational task here. And so if moving cargo is sort of your, you know,

your first sort of thing you're taking on, like what are the weird engineering challenges that come from that. Because I think that sounds super straightforward. It's like, yeah, you're just moving boxes. Okay, like, whatever, right? But I imagine, like, I'm just, I'm suspicious that there is probably something very weird that you guys had to solve to make that actually happen. And it's not as straightforward as I think it is. Oh, definitely. There's a bunch, there's a bunch of just really unusual things. I think the first thing right off the bat is the fact that if you're doing cargo on the International Space Station, your robot has to be mobile in microgravity because you have to end.

enter a visiting vehicle. You've got to take the cargo out and then you've got to bring it somewhere else. You know, you've probably seen like some examples of like some Boston Dynamics robots where maybe a like a cargo truck will pull up and you know, you'll get this static robot pulling boxes out of the back and it's, you know, it's really high throughput. It's really amazing. We have one that's not only mobile, but has to be mobile in space, which is just from a dynamics point of view, very, very hard. And then there's a whole host of other sort of difficult things as well where these bags are they're compliant. You don't know the mass of the bags. They're going to, you know, compress and pull apart in your hands. And then again, just to put the cherry on top, you're in space. So the thing

is floating away from you all the time too. So there's so many little bits in pieces that make this simple problem, you know, challenging. But I think the exciting thing is it's just so worthwhile doing because it sinks, you know, you're talking about weeks of astronaut time. And they're literally just white gym bags that they're just passing back to front, back to front and stowing stuff away. It's not to be fun though. Come on. That's a fun thing to do. Get a bag and throw it through the whole space station.

That's always looked. Like, you see those videos and I'm passing it through and like one guy's at the node and he's like sending them down the next hatch. That does look kind of fun. In the 90 degree, yeah. So I unfortunately, they're just going to be doing that with joy. Like, see if you can keep out with this. Exactly.

Exactly. You can team with it. If you ever want like a lot of fun, you can go watch the videos of astronauts failing to do things on orbit. So they'll like try to put a handrail in the wall for a new team. touch point and they'll kind of miss and they'll just kind of float backwards and be like whoa and a bunch of these different things where they'll just like miss a grasp or something like this and I think that also talks a bit more to like how hard some of these like seemingly innocuous tasks are like moving bags around like everyone just forgets like the the couple dynamics that happen in space like

if you pick up something too heavy like that thing is going to move after you move if you put your arms forward your body's moving backwards like if you pick up something you try to move to the left, you might just spin in a circle around it if it's sufficiently massive. And the cool thing is we get to like solve this very hard robotics problem inside of the space station where it's relatively protected, you know, compared to the outer like EVA kind of environment where you deal with the vacuum, the radiation, the temperature swings. And when we solve that robotics problem in the dynamics problem that come with like moving these objects of unknown mass, that same intelligence layer that we build with all of that data and all of those hours of operations scales immediately outside

to the vacuum. And now it's just a hardware challenge of can you rad hard in this thing? Can you make it work in the vacuum? And we've been doing that, you know, look at the Canadian $5 bill longer than most people have been around. So if you can solve this much harder problem, it scales to this much more massive thing. And we're just doing it in the easiest environment possible where people actually care about the problem where we can solve the hard thing first and focus only on the hard thing. You're the only person who's ever come on any one of my shows and said, inside the ISS is the easiest environment possible.

No one's ever said those words in a row, not the ISS. I get your point, but everyone else is like, oh, man. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Relative ease. Relative ease. I was going to say that the, like, I imagine the variable weight is just like a exponential problem in zero G, right? because you've got to be able to, again, that equal reaction problem that you have to deal with,

you can't just plant your feet on the ground and pivot things. So if something is twice as heavy, you got to whatever thruster you have further back to spin has to go twice as hard, or you've got to put it twice as far back. I don't know, put an extender arm on your thrusters or something to get the leverage or whatever it ends up being, right? There's like the weird little dynamics you have to kind of program in there. But that sounds, I don't want to solve this problem. Now, I'm thinking it through it. I'm like, I don't want to write this software.

I don't know this is that funny more Jake Come on Luckily luckily That's the sort of problem that folks on our team Absolutely love Because it is just that there's so many ways You can try to solve these things Like when Jamie and I were first

Like on the whiteboard about this And this is crazy We're like we're on the whiteboard Thinking about how to do this stuff And this is maybe a year and a half ago That we didn't have a company And we're just thinking this stuff out Talking as many people that we can

And within two weeks time it'll actually be up there doing the ops on like an actual mission, which is just like from whiteboard no money to actual ops on orbit is kind of a crazy timeline, especially when you look at like the robots that have been up there before, this will be like the robot with the most compute ever that's like free flying on the inside of the ISS. It'll be doing some of the most dynamic operations and some of the hardest operations. And we just haven't seen this level of manipulation before. But I remember, and I'll never forget this, we were sitting down talking to someone,

in the C-suite of a very large space company just kind of talking about like this robot and what it could look like. He said, oh, just put massive tungsten cubes on the back and then just chuck them out on linear rails when you pick up something super heavy to balance out the mask.

And so he's gone from ideas as crazy. Sounds so safe. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. It's weird problems, man. It's cool, though. So the propulsion of this thing is is it thrusters or is it propellers fans? Like what are we working with inside here?

Yeah, we're dealing with fans essentially. So again, you know, they're eight laid out. So by having eight of them and having them at each corner, you basically need like a very, very small amount of thrust for something, like as big as what we're doing. You know, it's like the fraction of the size of a human. Robots like roughly yay big with two 500mm arms on the front. So you actually really, really don't need much to move that around.

So the fan control gives us like a nice control authority that we can control it really sort of we can stay on top of it basically nicely. And then it also means that, you know, we don't have to be having something like a gas truster, which obviously I don't think anyone in the ISS would be happy about. And I don't think any of them would let us run us. And then the other option there is to basically crawl around. And if you've ever tried to don't do like goal specification for figuring out how to crawl around, A, that's ridiculously hard, and B, you also need to be able to assume that there's

handrails everywhere that you want them to be. So I think that the most elegant solution, at least I'm saying that now, I think it's got to be the fans for at least IVA. So I mean, that essentially just makes it a drone, right? This is a drone that's operating in zero-g, so it has to not just thrust down, but also in all the other direction. Yeah. Yeah.

I think when you think about it that way and you frame it that way, you realize that the reason why we say like some things are super helpful is that you know drones terrestrial they constantly have to fight gravity so in space we don't have to do that and that allows us to get that much longer operation life and so there's certain things that do play in our favor with this sort of architecture and then other things like you know just picking up something super heavy and having a relatively low mass vehicle that makes it a lot harder to manipulate in the way that you would want and so I think we try to you know where we can like use the environment to help us as much as possible and when we can't just come up with really clever solutions.

And then obviously, with thrusters, no consumables. You can keep operating over and over again with something like cold to ass or like that. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So, you know, you can just harvest off the ISS and plug in. So AstroB, free-floating camera that we got up there right now, it just has a little dock. It goes, docks at the end of its ops, once it gets down to a critical battery percentage. And then, you know, as soon as it's charged back up again, it can continue operating.

And so when you're with big infrastructure, you can use that infrastructure. But then when you move out to the EVA side of things, if you need really high delta V, you're probably looking at some sort of chemical or cold gas propulsion. But if you can be around infrastructure, you can get away with Halifact or ionic and things like this, because you can just keep harvesting energy and operating in that one area. And so what happens when that infrastructure is up there gets really exciting for us. but then also in general, like what happens in 10 years when people start to take the base cases, oh, I have an extra set of hands on orbit.

I can now build this thing that I never could have before. And that opens an entire new part of the industry that we really haven't seen at this point. And we just see this as like kind of the nexus of you start with the easy, low-hanging fruit, the things that people actually really care about right now, build out the core capability, and you see what other people can build on top of it, the same way that like, and I hate to use this example because it is SpaceX, but, you know, the same way that, they democratized launch and made it easier from people to launch business cases that no one could never dreamed of popped up afterwards because people now had access to that thing.

So we see it as very foundational, especially as stuff starts coming back down. That's a whole other conversation in the end of itself. All right. So I was going to ask about Astrobees too because they, you know, we, you can occasionally catch headlines of what they're up to on the station. A lot of it does, you know, it seems pretty academic in nature in terms of like, How does it interact when we're doing this task? How about this task?

I remember one thing they tested was instead of using fans to get around the space station, they were like trying to swing between handrails the way that an astronaut would and think of, you know, new ways of, I don't know if you know anything that was going on that front, but that always seemed intriguing to me in terms of like, is that, like, it's good for humans, but it doesn't feel like it would be good for robots. But is there, yeah, so I'm just trying to figure out from, you know, The era that we have before us, you know, this 20, 30 years on station, and how many years has it been now? 25? 25. No, more than that, right? Yeah, 25. It's great with human.

With humans, yeah. So what were the things that you look back and you say, well, if we're going to do a, if we're going to do Echorus, we have to do better in these departments? Like, what are those unique elements that make Icarus obviously the better choice for where we're going in the future? Yeah, I think there's a couple of core bits that are super just key to philosophy and how we're actually building this company. I think the biggest one by far is the idea between sort of classical manipulation and kind of like modern robotics and modern robot learning where that's going. So over the past like only really only like three years call it max, we've seen this whole new like boom in robotics. And you've probably noticed maybe in other industries like humanoid's popping up everywhere and kind of a whole bunch of funding going into. to robotics. And the reason that this has been happening is essentially because we realize that

the large model sort of laws that we all have with AI actually carry across to robotics models. And now for the first time, instead of actually having to program a robot to reach over here and grab this beer, and if the beer actually happens to be over here this time, it just misses and comes back, now you actually have a robot to understand this is a beer, this is my hand, and we're just complete this task. I need to grab it and move it away. And the reason it knows that, we're able to use machine learning. We're able to feed up video, we're able to feed information about its own body, and then we can use that to essentially train behaviors. So not only does the robot learn how to carry out a task, but it learns like what completion

of that goal actually means. And this means now you can use a singular piece of hardware, a singular robot to do many, many different types of tasks. And space is just really the perfect environment for this because the barrier to entry of getting hardware to orbit is so high that if you can have huge, like across the board utility with one piece of hardware. It's a no-brainer in a way that doesn't necessarily always make sense terrestrial. You know, if we were to go in and put like a really expensive robot in a supermarket with, you know, a really expensive operator behind it to collect teleoperation and manipulation data and train that robot over the course of a few years, you know, you just just put a human there. That makes way more sense, right? It just doesn't make

sense yet. But in our case, the opportunity cost is you can either have this robot do it or essentially nobody do it because there's probably a handful of astronauts in space at a given time and you doesn't really open up the field to doing large scale labor just because it's so hard to do human spaceflight and so expensive today. So I think the robot learning aspect is one of the biggest aspects that we're able to push forward for it for sure. Yeah, it's super exciting to see how it'll go and people are starting to do similar things in satellite dynamics too, sort of an oropod and things like this and using sort of like vision methods to actually go and control satellites too. So I think we'll see it proliferate across the whole space industry very soon.

Yeah, I imagine like the sort of the way you described like the flexible nature of these things where you can make one device that does many tasks. That feels like just absolutely critical for any kind of like frontier space. environment, like whether you're, even in a well-characterized environment like the ISS, you're still going to be, like, doing experiments and things that are just weird, and we've never done it. And like, no one's invented a thing to solve that yet. And so being able to take tools and just sort of like apply them dynamically to those problems is going to be important. And if like we go, you know, if we go to the moon or go to Mars or whatever and do more stuff there and try and

live and work and do things there, like, the weird shit we're going to have to like figure out is going to be like, it's going to be so useful to have stuff like that we can just be like, solve this. You know, the way we use LOMs today in everyday life where it's like, I have this weird question and I don't, I search for it and, you know, there's like some one Reddit thread from 12 years ago, but I can just ask the LM and it'll figure something out, right? Like you can, you can go at problems that are like very niche and bizarre that way. Yeah, I think like the other thing that's so key, especially when you look at like previous

platforms in the past generation, like you take int ball, you take Astorby, Simon, these are kind of the free flyers from, you know, jazz. Japanese Space Agency, the German Space Agency, DLR, and ESA, and then, you know, United States with NASA. These operated off single board computers, not much compute. They can't really do much inference on the edge. And then also, if you look at the manipulation capability that Astrobby had, which was actually, it was a guest science payload. And they made this, like, underactuated three-Doff gripper. And this was never meant to be a platform for manipulation. Like, for us, the key thing that we care about is, is the next step beyond these large-scale primitives that you see things like Canada Arm do.

You're grabbing this massive spacecraft and you're birthing it to the ISS. And even then, the last mile, you have an astronaut inside of the station, teleoperating this sometimes, right? And so when we look at the core competency of what comes next to build, whether it's on the moon, on Mars, or on orbit, or service a satellite, you know, MRV, MIV just launched. And so we're seeing this whole new generation of things come. But even that, that's installing these large jet packs on geosats, which are huge. People don't realize the scale of how big geosat is. But what we're talking about is doing really fine grain manipulation, the way that a human does,

or you're flicking switches, you're plugging in and plugging out mill spec power and data connectors, and these sorts of things that will really allow us to operate at a scale that we've never been able to do before on orbit. And so I think that manipulation piece is just so key. And like Jamie said, the techniques that we're using to be able to do that just didn't exist. And I think the other thing that the public probably gets wrong a lot of the time is like space is the frontier of technology. And this is where like the bleeding edge is. And a lot of cases it is. But when it comes to environments with people and humans, it's the exact opposite.

Everything is rooted in deep, deep flight heritage. It's been proven to the utmost that it won't explode. it won't break, it won't hurt anything. And I think... And it will have worked for 10 years, which means it's 10-year-old technology out of minimum. Yeah, yeah. Exactly.

Exactly. A great example. Astroby, they started developing it in like, I think 2015, and I don't think it even launched until 2019. And they made it with a board that I think it went out of production in the early 2000s. So that's kind of the time scale. They're just getting good deals, man.

Listen, they're buying these components. Another way to sort of like hammer that point home. This is not zero G, but it's still space. I think a lot about the Insight Mission, right, which had this problem with the, they had the little mold that was supposed to go down, right? And it didn't really work. Oh, here we go.

And they were, well, but listen, like, they had basically zero tools to solve that problem, right? They're like, well, we're going to like, the knobs they could turn, be like how fast does it hammer? How hard does it hammer? And they were just like, how about this? How about this? Does that work? And they're just like, and they couldn't get it. And it's like, all they have to do is just go down like two meters or whatever it is, right? And so it's like not a difficult problem. Talk about the solar panels. Well, this is where I'm going, right? And so the other. The other topic is these solar panels that were covered in dust and everyone's like, why don't they just put a windshield wiper on there or a little thing of gas? And it's like, well, because, you know, it costs a lot of money to operate to.

missions and that was not in the budget window and then you got to make this whole other thing and test it and then that costs a bunch of money and you know like it was fine it was a two-year mission and it worked and they did what they wanted to do with it but if you have one device that could simultaneously figure out how to clean the panels off and also fix the drill thing because it's got you know just sort of some generic manipulators and like a AI model to run it now the the cost to add that extra hardware is half for each problem right because you're solving two for one. Increase that to three, four, five, six, ten problems.

Now, like, all of a sudden it makes sense to send a little helper robot with, you know, perseverance to fix whatever random shit comes up that we're never going to be able to predict, right? And so, I don't know, I'm just making you... So what Jake's question is, is what positions are you hiring for that he could probably get in on? I don't know. I think we're looking for a new CEO if you want to join.

I mean, like, that was pretty compelling. Your company is 100% cleaning solar panels at Mars from now on. Other than that, yeah, if you're open to that, then Jake's your guy. I'm going to go watch this back and actually steal that pitch right there. And the next time we go out, it's going to be word for word. Watch this. As long as you call him a highly respected fan blogger, then you'd be good. By us, you'd be fun.

An industry watcher, yeah, playing a fan blogger. I think the funny thing is, like, the government is just finally coming to this conclusion now, whether it's civil or defense. Like the word that we've been using for so long is the word logistics, a bunch of people have been using it. And this is very much the argument of like, if you have a car, you can spend millions of dollars engineering this car to run for millions of miles because it cannot break down. Or you can spend a lot less money because there's a mechanic shop right around the road and they can fix it when like that one or two parts hit their 300,000 cycle or whatever. And so it just decreases all these exquisite platforms and all these programs that,

you know, once you just couldn't do anything on orbit to fix them. And like another one, like this gives me nightmares. One of like astronomers's first satellites, they go, they deploy it, FOD gets stuck in the solar panels, doesn't fully deploy. And now they have this geosat that has to be turned in this really funky manner that only gives them, I think it's like, they don't even get a full 24 hours a day operation on this satellite. And they use it for, tests on their other avionics and stuff. And so the more we can cut down on risk like that, the more risk you can take on your engineering and the prices of these things,

just decrease in the capability increases like crazy. Yeah, the Lucy spacecraft had the panel that didn't fight quite open, right? Got to like 98% or whatever, and they couldn't fix it. So it's just kind of a little bit less effective. That's another example of that, right? And don't they talk about Swift? Yeah, yeah. Swift?

They did that on a shoestring budget in like a year. Yeah. And don't they like don't they always talk about, you know, when they're doing. Can we define out who they is in this sentence? Yeah, they, they, they, the Lindsay Graham and they, right? No, the, when NASA does like their exploratory math, we're like, okay, if we were going to do a human mission to Mars, what does that look like? Let's start, like, adding up, you know, packs of Doritos or whatever we need to get to Mars and get all the way back. and all the different supplies they need for this six, seven, eight, nine month run and all the way back and the mission on the surface, blah, blah, blah, and one of the things that comes up, it's like, well, you need spare parts, right? Because you got all this shit on your spacecraft.

Something's going to break in a year and a half. You don't know what it's going to be. And so you have to have like a little bit of everything and it's like, okay, you need this many flight spares. And then that increases the fuel you have to bring. And then it gets, ship gets bigger. You need to add more components and then you need more spare parts for those components. It's like the rocket equation, but for stuff, right? and then this can solve that too, right?

If you can kind of reduce down to tools and supplies that are multi-use, you can dramatically decrease the sort of requirements you have for a mission like that, right? Entirely. A robot and a 3D printer and we're cooking. Yeah, that's what I'm saying, man. Just a bucket of filament and then one of these things with a 3D printer, done. Solved it. Bring back made in space and we'll call it a day.

Yeah, man. But then we'll get into like, oh, the AI model wanted to just print a bunch of shit and it wasted all of our filament because it broke out of a sandbox and started printing shit. Open the door, Howe, right? Yeah. It's like, geez. Print the hammer, Hal, print the hammer. It printed so much it can't get to the rest of the spaceship now.

It stuck where it was on the other side. It did the whole little like rocky like window thing, right? Walled itself off from the... I printed another robot. so I don't have to work. Man, that gets into a whole other conversation of where the future is going to go. It's like these self-replicating spaceships. You go to one of these graveyard orbits.

There's a bunch of components out there that still work. You go grab it from there. And like this is this is something that like folks from the DOD of pitch, like, hey, we have all this stuff up there that's not coming back. A lot of this stuff still is just fine. You know, they're basic core components. or can you even just have these core components and something that's akin to a garage? And they even released some of this stuff.

The servicing mobility and logistics group was talking about it in like Space Forces 2040 vision of what space looks like. And I think the more that we do kind of solve coming back, we saw SpaceX with Starfall recently and that whole deployment, and you see inversion and how many VARTA clones do we have now that have been working on this same sort of problem,

the more mass that we have going up, on orbit and things like Starship, New Glenn, and the more mass that we have coming down, now the problem becomes, what do you do in the in-between, between the up and the down, what are we bringing back down? And what can we do with it? If we're bringing stuff up and down all the time, can we just be upgrading stuff? Can we be fixing it? Can we not have these exquisite $100 million, $200 million, $300 million platforms? And I think like that becomes really, really exciting, just a future to imagine. It's like talking about the moon base. The fact that we're alive right now, and we can talk about that seriously.

And that being actual problems that we're working on, it's just, it's amazing. You're building the harvester. You're building the shipbreaking robot that can go out and sort through shit like Ray and Star Wars. 60 portions. You roll up to the duty satellite. It's like, here you go.

That's that guy. For right now, it's not nearly as sexy. It's just a, it's gym bags right now. We'll work our way on. Well, the other job, I wanted to go through the series of like jobs that are done on the ISS today and which ones are easy targets. You got like Roomba mode on this thing? Is there, are you going to go around to clean the space?

Like, can you take janitorial services away from this spacecraft very quickly? You know, it's funny, actually. We were doing, we were like fulfilling some demos for potential customer. And like one of the things that actually asked us was we have, we're going to have this big window on our platform in space. Can you guys actually, like, go and clean it? So upstairs in the office, we have this, like, this is procurement to its finest. We basically managed to get, like, from a playground, like a big, massive, like, plastic window.

Oh, the playplace window. Yeah, yeah. So now we can go and, yeah, we can practice cleaning windows with the robot. But I think there's like a whole host. What are you cleaning it with? You got a sponge? What are you doing with don't? Like, he can't use a squeegee on a dome.

Can't use a squeegee? Can't use a squeege? What's the one from Shark Tank? What's that little one called it? The Smiley Face. Scrub Daddy? Scrub daddy. Scrub daddy.

Scrub daddy. Scrub me daddy. Yeah, she's scrubbed daddy. The robot is the scrub daddy. I think you're getting mistaken. That's the name of the second one, actually. Yeah, yeah. Joy and then Scrub Daddy.

We'll be heading up. I do have to say that you're as smooth as gravel, brother. You know, this big domed window of this one. potential. I wonder. I wonder who could be. All those companies flying big domed windows, you know. Well, listen, the cupola is not that far off.

Coupola, you got, the good pros on Coupola is you could use a squeegee. Yeah. That's good. Yeah. I'm thinking like, you know, cleaning out, cleaning out the air vents. Because those get pretty jammed up with all sorts of stuff. You got, so, you know, the idea. I don't know what.

Well, that's actually a genuine thing. Yeah, because their robots are getting sucked across the space station, and they're like, why do we keep ending up in this corner? Yeah, you put a little microphone or something, you catch a leak. But I think, yeah, the filter in the toilet, this is one that, like, genuinely without even joking, like, it's, like, clogged up all the time. So there's, like, a whole host of, like, horrible, like, janitorial jobs. So the second robot's called Mike Row.

That's actually who you're naming it after. All the dirty jobs up there. Yeah, yeah. We can get a little like janitor suit or something as well. Get it to put it to work. Yeah. The water filters are just nuts up there. That was like one of the first things.

The ops planners mentioned. They were just like, guys, these things get calcified like crazy so quick. And it's just, you just peeing out your bones up there. Like, you know, the calcium just goes out and just fills up the filters. Because like you go into straight oscioporosis. saying you literally mean that. It's not like a way that, I don't know, we're old now, Jake,

on this show. So I thought, that's just what you guys, Gen Z, I guess. You know, that's what you're saying. It's peeing out my bones. But no, you literally mean it. Yeah. No, it's a big problem up there. You know, they lose all their bone mass. And it just goes straight to the filters. And then you have this

big clump of calcium on there. So you're switching them in and out all the time, you know? And then like the other things. So many bones in our filters. Well, you know the other thing, and this still is just nuts to me for no matter how long I've known about it, is the fact that they just lose stuff up there, they have like this big lost and found list. And they're like, you know, I would kill to just fly this thing around and go look for stuff because we're missing so much up there. We had one person from NASA, she was like, God, I would kill for a Borscope, just sneak it around up there, see what I can find. And we're like, this can't be that big of a problem.

It's a really small tin can. You're telling me you lose stuff. There's not many places to lose stuff. There's literally a limit to where this could be. That was crazy to hear about too. Well, you laughed, but one time I filed a FOIA request for tomatoes that got lost on the ISS. Do you remember how much? I had to put an amount of money that I would pay for them to do this FOIA request, Jake.

Do you remember how much I put? I think I put like $200 something? $250, yeah, $250, maybe. I told the U.S. government that I would pay $250 for them to find photos of tomatoes that got lost on the ISS that were eventually found. And then after I filed that, they posted a photo of the lost tomatoes. So I'm assuming that it was because of me, that they were like, people want this information. Definitely because of you. There could be some sort of like small, I don't know, like interest group maybe.

and there's loads of people the tomatoes at one time, I don't know. Well, the plants in space. It was lost for eight months, by the way. Eight months, these tomatoes were floating around the ISS, and Frank Rubio found them. Or no, people thought that Frank Rubio ate the tomatoes, but then they found the tomatoes.

Frank Rubio lost the tomatoes, and then they showed up. Again, no, this was the one that didn't have pictures of the tomato when they found it. I got to find the, they did post a photo of the tomatoes in a bag. Eight months sounds like enough time to regrow the lost potato. I think it's like, I think that's kind of suspicious. That's kind of suspicious.

That's some JSC spirit stuff right there. Oh, here they are. These are the tomatoes. They bagged them up as if evidence. Like they're going to do a trial. Exhibit A. We've learned you don't mess with the plants up there. They do have a fan club.

We were talking to the ISS National Lab folks, and we're just getting the whole task list that everything these guys do. And what does the day-to-day look like for just an astronaut? And they have it broken out like five-minute segments. It's crazy. But like the one thing they're like, do not automate the plants. Don't water the plants. The astronauts love watering the plants. Like that's the one thing that keeps the same.

It's their friends. Don't touch the plants. That's later time. Don't give you that. They don't touch the plants. Don't make the LLM do the art. There's definitely a Facebook page that was up in arms for about eight months on that one. So how do you rank when you get that list and you guys are trying to figure out what tasks you want to focus on?

What is the power ranking in terms of the things that would be most useful to replace? Is it the ones that happen the most frequently or the things that need the biggest chunk of time? so they take up half a day when we need to do this versus it happens a lot, but it takes five minutes when I need to do it. Like, how do you sort them? There's kind of two things. Oh, yeah. Yeah, there's like, there's basically two things that you want to consider.

First, it's like what's globally taking the most time. So that will be a mixture of like how long the task actually takes and then the frequency. So we have some tasks that are quite important that are high frequency, but they don't take so long. And then we have some that are like the cargo resupply where it's only happening a couple of times. a year when it happens, it's like it just takes forever. I think the other interesting waiting then that we need to be applying is, you know, what is going to be useful in the future too? So what is actually going to be around forever, no matter what way we think about it. Something like logistics is just very clear to us that ultimately we're going to be doing this. In the same way, we have to

move things around different countries all over the planet. We're going to have to do it around space. It's going to be super important. So putting a lot of time and effort into getting really, really good that doing, you know, logistics work with a robot feels sensible and doing anything as well that's like high-dex-30 work with, you know, general interfaces, like these kind of things feel like quite important. Things like getting good at doing science and swapping out payload containers, they feel quite important. But then there might be other ones in the future, you know, something specific like swapping out the filter that's like an ISS specific thing that they're going to scrap in future stations, like something like that we might look at and we might be like,

okay, that takes a lot of time today, but maybe that doesn't necessarily make sense for us to do. And if you focus your time, your time on doing those other things, then I don't know if the individual astronauts really care that they are losing a particular task. They're pumped that they're gaining that time. They don't really care, which it's just like, please help us at all, right? I mean, we heard so much talk about how much that fourth crewmate helped the science. It went from like 100xed the science capable because they were just. just all three of them are so busy. Because it takes 2.9 astronauts to maintain the space station.

So there's like that one person and X's year. It actually worked out. I think that the addition of the crewmate made it so that the other three just enabled the fourth to do all science. Like that wasn't exactly that by crew load, but by hours spent, that was how it broke down. So I think they'll just be thrilled that anything is getting taken off their plate, not that they still have to do that one ISS specific filter. That makes total sense.

Yeah. not linear. And like the only other thing I'll say that we really like wait very heavily for us is the tasks that scale beyond the station. So very much so that logistic aspect, that's not just an inside of the station problem, that manipulation of those cargo bags or objects that unamassed, the scales out well beyond the station. And so we take the people that care about the commercial stations and, you know, the tasks that, you know, give them either the most astronaut time back or the most revenue by, you know, hundreds of experiments in a row. And so, you know, or whatever it might be.

And then we take our own internal future plans and we wait these against each other. We kind of move in that direction for what develops the most tech and keeps most people happy to work with us and the stakeholders happy that we're doing what they care about. Yeah, that's the job, eh? Balancing your own needs against your clients. Clients. That's cool, yeah. I mean, it sounds like you guys are pretty interested in getting outside of the confines of the station.

point, right? Yeah. For sure. I think like important, like everything that happens in space, the vast majority of it is not in a pressurized volume. There's only going to be, you know, we're super excited about persistent platforms, like things like surface bases or, you know, anything going around in Leo, but like the vast majority of stuff is just not going to be rated like that. So I think getting really good at that enables you to even, you know, make bigger persistent platforms in space, make, you know, bigger and larger surface habitat. So if you get really good at navigating the whole environment of space, we can then lay the infrastructure and lay that layer for even humans to come afterwards and actually be sustained long term in space, which I think is really exciting. Big misnomer that a lot of people make is they think space is just going to be full of robots.

There's going to be no humans there. It's going to kill the dreams of all the children. And like we entirely entirely disagree with this. Like we think ultimately in order for like, you know, all of us to be able to actually go to space, you need to have the infrastructure there. that's like the limiting factor. If you can have robots up there doing the dirty work, getting up there, laying the ground work before the humans ever get there, such that we can land to a perfect space Hilton by the time that we get there.

You know, I think this is like a really, really exciting future. So we always say like more robots in space equals more humans than space. And it's a pretty simple equation for us to get behind and to really, you know, drive. You're not finding any doubters in us because Jake and I talk about LLMs too much in the Discord. and people get mad at us, but we're very much in the same mindset of like, no, no, no, this isn't about like, it's going to do all the jobs. It just like makes you, it enables you to do so much more in these other areas that are really impactful for humans to go do.

Or just that you like, go plant your plants, tend to your garden, you know. Except for you, Frank. Stans off the tomatoes, Frank. Not this time, not this time. But I know they're like, we get it. He's going on Artemis 3. You got to watch. this guy will steal the tomatoes, all right?

We'll keep an eye out for him. No tomatoes are going up on Art of his three. No, if a camera missing or something. Yeah. Jeez. Hold klepto Rubio, you know? I never know what's going to go missing.

He's going to steal the whole. He's never coming on the show. We're ruining our whole opportunity here, Jake. at that on in post. That's two Rubios we'll never have on this show. Oh, dear. All right. Yeah. We're jumping the shark now. That's for sure. All right. Walk us through this first mission. I want to hear like, tell me the story of the mission. It's going to fly up. It's going to be

unpacked. What's going to happen? What is it going to fly up on? How's it get unpacked? I also want those details. Yeah, definitely. So we're going up. CRS 36. SpaceX. So that's in the beginning of next year. So it's March-April timeline. They haven't exactly manifested it. It looks like April is the window right now,

but we'll find out, obviously. We're going up there. Obviously, we have to wait for it to get unpacked by an astronaut. And then once it's unpacked, we were pitching, could it unpack itself? And this was a big no-go. Yeah, they were like, absolutely not.

JSC put the kibosh on the moon, An astronaut. That's an RR table right now. Yeah. You should have seen the hassle with the batteries, man. Oh, that was ridiculous. But once it's up there and once it's unpacked, we then have to power it up.

So it would be charged, plugged in, like any other piece of equipment. And then at that point, we'll be able to actually have a set operation window. So for a one week period, we're fully crew-tended, and this is the first initial slot of testing that we have. And it'll go through,

basically the first half will be us initializing the robot doing all the health checks the telemetry checks making sure it's working not off nominal but everything is nominal um and then from that you it's fine it's up to you yeah we'll we'll pull on into the lid or something but then again it might be flammable so who knows it's true yeah yeah but uh at that point once we're comfortable in the operations we know everything's working as it will be we'll go into our first tests so these first tests span the most basics of, you know, while I actually perched on a piece of actual physical hardware, handrail, the test setup that we have Voyager setting up in the Bishop Airlock for us. We'll be doing the manipulation primitives, so making sure the arms are working, we can actually

grab things, and then from each point, we'll be stepping up fidelity and what these tests actually are. So the first ones will be the cargo movement of A to B. So moving it from visiting vehicle or replicated simulant of this at first into the node where it's needed. So you think gem, Columbus, something like this. And then after this point, we'll move to the actually unpacking of these cargo bags where we're unzipping them. We're pulling the cargo out. We're categorizing where a cargo is and we're staging, you know, scientific experiments for an astronaut to operate on. And then we'll bring that experiment back into those cargo bags, repack it as if we're sending it back down to Earth. And then also we have this really awesome kind

a board, a task board of all these common interfaces that will be flying up as well. And so these common interfaces look like the millspec connectors with the cabling that you'll see on those payloads, on scientific payloads. You'll see the types of switches. It's going to be a USBA thing and they have to figure out which way it goes the right way the first time. Yeah, and we'll keep flipping it about six times. And it'll be like, I promise it's a robot's not bad.

The robot's not bad. It's the port. And then, At the end of that week of those sorts of tests, where we have the next generation on the commercial stations, there are cargo tabs for their closeouts, things like filters and representative hardware there. We'll start to, we actually have the ability to append different test weeks throughout the entire year that we're up there. And that's when we start working with some of the other partners and customers we have across biological sciences and the rest of the works on the station. That's rad.

The year you're up there. Then what? You coming back? they're getting kicked out you're getting spaced they're throwing out the airlock this thing didn't work we have a better one so that's the whole point

we're taking all that data to actually inform our new design of what went right what went wrong and that's when we very much get to send the productized version up there but you're definitely coming back there's not an option where the astronauts are like we love this thing joy shall never leave

we're signing an extension we take it we take it I want a hard committee you were to coming back. I don't know if you guys wanted her back. If they can take an SSD out and they can send the SSD down, they can keep the rest of the thing. I need something that's about this long and this thing.

I mean, if Frank Rubio flies up, he might not see it again. He might just take it with you. Where's the SSD? Maybe if I put a tomato sticker on it, he might bring you back down. All the sudden is on Orion. You're like, how did this get an Artemis 3?

Frank, on back the dragon that came back. that's a whole new MSR right there, Moon sample return. Hopefully that one doesn't get canceled. I'm going to have to put this in as a risk. This is definitely a risk. You know, go into shareholder, I know it is for sure. I mean, like, I definitely want the robot back no matter what. Like, even if they're super stoked with it, like, and they're like, oh, we want to keep it on there.

It's like, this is the most optimal kind of point we can be at. It's like, hey, we'll just give you a new one. You know, we'll set up a new one. But give us this one, I just wanted like a little glass box just like next to the desk or something. And you just look at it. Yeah, our robot was in space. This is the robot, yeah. I love that, yeah.

Yeah, this is very common in robotics. There was little robot dogs. I'll leave you with this little anecdote. There's little robot dogs, I think it was Sony eyeball dogs. And they would send them out and they get broken. And then basically what people would do is they would go and send them to Sony to fix them. So then you would send them a fresh one in a fresh box. And they'd be like,

what have you done with my dog? Like, bring back my old one. I don't want my dog. So I don't know. We might have a bit of a fight with astronauts. And Ethan has that right now. He has that going on right now. He's like, no.

I think it's really fun. I was a steady model for the robot, you know, I'm telling you. This is in Fido. Yeah. Mike Robot. Why didn't I think of that earlier? Mike Robot. Come on.

Come on, folks. Slowing down. We're slowing down, man. We're not getting it anymore. God. God. It's funny when you think about it. It is.

This is fun. Yeah, this is cool, guys. It sounds like really fascinating stuff. I hope the mission goes well, and I hope that the astronauts don't want to give it back. How's that? Final question. have a final question. Likelihood that Joy tries to fight an astrobi.

What's the personality dial we've got on Joy here? Is it, are you guys going to be scrapping? There's going to be robot fights up there? What's going on? All I'm saying is if they let me on the controllers. It goes into fast arm mode. I think Joy's boxing one of the astrophies? It's like, yeah.

It's like, they're like, what was the thing? Flies past the window. What is it called? Rockham Socom robots? Is that it? This is more of a right half of the screen thing, Jake. I wish Soros still around. We say it every week, but I wish Soros still around.

Just before it starts fighting, it says, this town's only big enough for one of us. Do you know, you already know, so if you, you know, T.S. 36, you probably know, an astronaut or two that's likely to be on the station. Is there, do you have a, is there a caretaker already determined? Like, who is the human that is tending this thing for the first week? We actually don't quite know.

So there's been a lot of crew shifts and, like, CRS mission shifts in last, like, I want to say six months here. They had the stuff with, obviously it was like crew 12, 13, that whole thing. Yeah. And then there was the rollout solar rays that they were sending up. Exactly. That they need to figure out. Yeah.

Shift in a bunch of stuff. around. So we're actually not totally sure. But you're pretty, it doesn't really matter who is the person that is going to be working with y'all. It's not, there's nothing that like you needed to be training with this one particular person because of the tasks that are involved. So the cool thing is we get to work with the ops planners and give them kind of our con ops of what we need done and what operations look like. And then they go and they'll take it and distill it down for the astronaut trainers and the astronauts. So they get these manuals of basically every single action that they need to do with the robot or every single operation. And like the great thing about astronauts are they are the highest trained workforce in the world.

Like it really doesn't get better than these folks. They all come from crazy backgrounds. They are the top 0.0.01%, you know. So we're very confident that with how easy we've made our robot to work with people or they're not interacting, with it too much. I think anyone can plug in and plug out the robot and press a power button and an e-stop. They should be able to handle it.

Yeah. I can do it. But it will be exciting. We should probably go ask the folks and just say, hey, you guys know who it is. Yeah. Who's our friend? We'd love to say hello. Shoot him an email. Awesome stuff. Yeah. That's rad. Cool. Heck yeah.

Yeah, this is really great, guys. Thanks for coming on. We really appreciate you spending some time with us. This is a cool. cool project and yeah we're going to have to keep an eye on that flight. Yeah, it would be super exciting. Anything you want to plug? Are you hiring? Do you want, do you, are you collecting people? Always. If people are always tired of people. Hold on a second. I've buried the lead. Can I come visit Joy? I'm so close. You can come visit Joy. I'm so close. Yeah, you're in city.

Of course you can come visit Joy. I'm not even in Philly. I'm across the bridge into New Jersey. I'm weaving one state closer. I'm touching your state. You can come anytime. Yeah, okay, great. I gotta go, Jake. The best time to come will be just before September. We'll be doing all the testing before we're doing the parabolic. So you can just see it kind of operating on the air bearing table. I mean, I could come to Switzerland too if you need a, if you need anyone on the flight to just like hold stuff.

You need an embedded, an embedded lowercase J. Journalist. Yeah. Yeah. It records audio of a very visually interesting thing. Great pitch, shaking. If we could bring you with some meta glasses going, you know, you can film for us. I'll bring the Vision Pro, I got it right there. There we go.

There we go. Yeah. That was a big problem for us, figuring how to get depth perception. You know, because you'll have an option. Throw Vision Pro in there. It's probably as expensive as anything else you'd send up there. They're great, but they're so heavy. Very heavy.

They're really, they mess with your neck a lot. And then like, I don't know if it's me, but like a few folks, like, I get the headaches from that stuff. Like, I'm not really too good in VR. Oh, you're going to be great on the parabolic flight. But we stole from, we stole from surgical robotics. So they have like these 3D displays that everyone can just wear like, you know, the movie theater kind of glasses. And you can kind of just get death perception from the display itself. No headache.

No, like really heavy. thing and you get the added benefit of looking really stylish. Oh, yeah. Well, I can't wait to put that on. It's going to be great. Hell yeah. Nice. All right, guys, thanks so much for hanging out with us.

This is awesome. We don't have anything to plug next week for next week yet, do we? No, we're trying to figure out our holiday schedule here. Yeah, we'll have something coming. Stay tuned, everybody. All right, y'all. We'll see you. Bye.

Bye. Take care. One, two, three, four, five, four, three, two, one, end of death.