Off-Nominal - 255 - Sorry, Reno (with Matt Gjertsen)

Episode Date: September 4, 2026

Jake and Anthony are joined by Matt Gjertsen, Founder of BUILT, to talk about his book, Minimum Viable Manager: Three Essential Skills for Leading Technical Teams That Solve Big Problems, the recovery of Starship at Christmas Island, and Starbase Louisiana.TopicsOff-Nominal - YouTubeEpisode 255 - Sorry, Reno (with Matt Gjertsen) - YouTubeAmazon.com: Minimum Viable Manager: Three Essential Skills for Leading Technical Teams That Solve Big Problems: 9781774587270: Gjertsen, Matt: BooksAgainst all odds, SpaceX finally tugs Starship into port after 24 days at sea - Ars TechnicaPhotos by SpaceX (@SpaceX) / XSpaceX intends to invest up to $100 billion in massive Louisiana spaceport - Ars TechnicaUS12234039B2 - Repeating ground track orbits for a reusable launch vehicle - Google PatentsFollow MattBuilt LeadersEasily listen to Leadership Launchpad – Team Development, & Performance Improvement for Aerospace & Technology Managers in your podcast app of choiceEasily listen to A VC, a Headhunter, and a Trainer Walk into a Bar in your podcast app of choiceFollow Off-NominalSubscribe to the show! - Off-NominalSupport the show, join the DiscordOff-Nominal (@offnom) / TwitterOff-Nominal (@[e-mail]) - Spacey SpaceFollow JakeWeMartians Podcast - Follow Humanity's Journey to MarsWeMartians Podcast (@We_Martians) | TwitterJake Robins (@JakeOnOrbit) | TwitterJake Robins (@[e-mail]) - Spacey SpaceFollow AnthonyMain Engine Cut OffMain Engine Cut Off (@WeHaveMECO) | TwitterMain Engine Cut Off (@[e-mail]) - Spacey SpaceAnthony Colangelo (@acolangelo) | TwitterAnthony Colangelo (@[e-mail]) - jawns.club 🐘Off-Nominal MerchandiseOff-Nominal Logo TeeWeMartians Shop | MECO Shop

TLS and go for main engine, start. Go at throttle up. Negative return. Jake, here we are, buddy. It's kicking it in your old stomping grounds, talking about management. I got a book that says the word manager. Is this giving you PTSD? Oh, minimum viable in the same sentence?

Ooh, I just got goosebumps. Check the index of this book. We'll see if parking lot appears or... I didn't hear any of that. I was listening to the book. Crucial Conversations. Yeah. None of that bullshit manager speak was in this book as I listened through it.

So maybe the audible version cut that out. But you'll tell us, Matt. Welcome back. Yeah. Hey, good to be back. I'm excited. Yeah. No, that's great.

I didn't try to cram every agile phrase in here. Oh, thank God. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. That's good. I'm glad. I'm excited. We did it.

We did it. New shirt this time. You didn't have a shirt the last time you're on. the show. Yeah, a little rebrand since you've been on. Yeah, new shirt, new rebrand. Yeah, built now we're specifically focusing on leadership development for hard tech. So that's, it's kind of what I had been doing for a long time, but now we just like made it a little bit more formal. And really it was just, I got tired of saying better everyday studios. Like, hey, you want to email me, Matt at better every day. It's just, it's just too long. Nobody,

nobody wants to type of. I said it a lot. So I agree. Digital branding. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot easier. I didn't realize about the day after I rebranded, I first heard of the, like, what is it, like, the rent to own company or something called built? Oh, it's spelled BILT. Yeah, right, right. Yeah. Yeah. So I didn't. Yeah. That was an accident. Have you tried it, though? Is that shirt one of those? Is it a rent the runway situation or is it like a, what is built? I don't even know if I know what built. Like, I know it exists, but I don't know what product. it is that it's renting. It's like a quantum scape situation, kind of the same idea. That's awesome. Are they up?

Did any other founding members sell all their stock this week, Jake? Have you checked? I have not checked. I will admit, yeah. It's down a buck since we checked in last week. All right. Don't worry about it. Which is a lot for that company, right?

It's, yeah, I mean, 20% of its value. So, yeah. Anyway, stocks. Jake's, I'm winning, so Jake doesn't want to talk about it. What do you bring in to drink over there, Matt, West Coast to time, so. Yeah, and I got a couple client calls after this, so I decided to just go with the tea. I got some, I got some peach tea that I'm drinking. What kind of mug is that, though?

That's interesting. It's like a stealth mug. Oh, it's an emberature. It's an ember mug. So it's the kind of mug that heats itself. So it can keep the tea or the coffee or whatever it is at the right temperature. That doesn't sound like technology, Matt. That sounds like magic.

You never seen this thing, Jake? Yeah, exactly. Self-heating mug? What is it? Would you plug it in? It's got an app that you can like set the exact temperature you want and everything. I don't know if self-heating was the right description, but heatable, I would say. Fair.

Yeah. There's other hardware involved, right? Yeah, you charge it and then... Oh, I thought, didn't they used to sit on a little mat? Wasn't it like a Chi charger for coffee? Or was that never a thing? What kind of port? What do you charge them on?

You got a USBC? What do you got in there? No, it's like an induction charger. So it just sits on it. So it does sit on a mat that charges it, yeah. It would be great if it was like an Apple charger that you had to flip the mug all the way over. Yeah, mouth stop.

Yeah, it's like it on the side. Yeah. There's a USB inside the mug. Totally. Using the waterproofing of it, yeah. That would be good. What do you got, Jake? What do you guys got?

I went for the other Merida brand today, Seba. What is that? I don't think we've seen this one before. Ambar Mestisa. So we'll see. A nice amber ale, you know. I've seen that one. Yeah, I mean, more of a

Petito guy, but I figured out that's the same. The same brewery or you're just saying those are your locals? Competition, yeah, those are two big ones here, right? So this is the other. Nice. I got a sunshine Pilsner

trying to channel that California in my life. It's been very rainy here. It's not sunny here today. It's been like storming so hard. I thought I was losing power a couple of times. So today's fine. We should be all right for the show.

It's nice. We got a lot of topics. We got to talk about the book. We got to talk about there are. It's funny because I feel like when you came on Miko recently was after we talked about Psyche on this show. And then I heard the section of the book that made you think of it when we were talking about psyche.

And I was like, ah, there it is. That was the thing that Matt told me about months ago. So we got to talk about that. We also, on the account of you being here, we have some SpaceX topics we haven't gotten to yet, like Starship at Christmas Island and Star Base Louisiana, which we did sort of talk about not that long ago, but now I'll just take a victory lap, I guess. So, that's good. Yeah.

I love it. All right. Give us the rundown. People may not remember that you were, well, I don't know if, when you were on the show last time, it was a while back. I don't know if you were writing the book yet, were you? You probably were. I think if I was, I was in the early state, very early stages of.

it because I yeah I started about 18 months ago so it was probably a thing that was going on I probably hadn't centered on the minimum viable manager yet but yeah it's just um this is a book that I had been thinking about for years after my time at SpaceX and then going out into industry working with a lot of startups about I'm still of the belief that in this whole hard tech boom that's happening there's so much investment happening one of the key things that's going to challenge the growth of organizations is how much they can grow their management capability, right? They have lots of funding. They have lots of technical excellence. But then when we try to make those engineers, people managers for the first time, if they don't get the skills they need,

then their teams don't know what to do. Their teams aren't getting any feedback. Their teams don't have a sense of the mission. And so this is a book to just try to give. The reason why it's called minimum viable is just like, no, these are like the first three things. Like you got a lot to do. You got a lot on your plate. So here's the first three. things to get started so that you have a strong foundation. There's some of the tent polls, I would say, that you point to, right? There's a couple ones, which I feel like we've talked about before of specific to the psyche thing was how much the team trusts each other, what the trust culture is like,

and the ability to raise issues and not have that reflect poorly on yourself. That that was, I feel like that was a prime thing of the conversation the last couple times we talked. it made me think though, right, that this is a lot of learnings from SpaceX and then everywhere else that you worked as well, and kind of comparing and contrasting that, historical stories as well. I wonder if you have a sense for how evident those emergent principles were to the people that you worked alongside that weren't necessarily managers, right? Like, would you, like, you probably should go hand this to a couple of people that you worked with and be like, by the way, this is the thing we did right. Whatever you think we did right, this is actually the reason that our team work.

worked well, whether or not you know it, because it was my job to think about it. And you just said, like, wow, we did great. We must have been so smart at that project. Yeah, I think it's a fair point because I think it is something that a lot of people miss, especially in organizations like SpaceX that are really intense and really high pace and are kind of willing and able to iterate their culture and leadership just as much as they iterate their product. And so there can be like these emergent properties that happen where it's just like all of a sudden you're good at something and it wasn't intended, right? Actually, months ago when I was talking with Hans Konigzman about this stuff, I kind of asked him, you know, how do you make a team where people are willing to,

are able to talk about problems without it being about the people, right? Because that's kind of a big part of having a trusting culture. And I got the sense that it was almost, it wasn't a deliberate thing. It was just they brought in a lot of really high caliber people and they had this like really intense vision that they were trying to go after. And so it just kind of almost happened. But that's not going to be the case at most places. At most places it needs to be more deliberately built, I would say. So yeah.

I don't know if they necessarily knew it. Yeah. I was going to say that was probably the kindest way anyone has ever explained firing people until everyone agrees with you. I don't know if it's firing people to everyone agrees with you. Burning them out until everyone agrees with you. You're placing people until you get exactly copies of what you want. Rapidly iterating our culture. But that's exactly like I felt I felt called out on at least one page of your book when you were like, a lot of people ask,

what does SpaceX get right that no one else can replicate? I was like, I feel like I've said that a 90. thousand times, but that's specifically one thing I want to dig into because in the IPO and the post IPO conversation right everyone's been saying all these people are going to go out and found a million companies because now they're bajillionaires and then they're going to obviously create the next great thing that tackles a problem in a different industry and it isn't just because these people did great work here that they're going to get the exact right mixture of things there and I feel like more often you can learn the wrong lessons you learn the lesson and

or the lesson you think you learned is actually not the one you need to go apply in your new role and these people might be going off to found something and we're not in those positions of leadership at another company they just are really good at some aspect of engineering

and that's the part that I feel like your book is written about is like read this before you go do that because you need to think deeper about why your team actually worked well. Yeah, because there's a lot of people who I know people who left SpaceX with a team of SpaceX

is to go start another company and they just assumed the culture would transfer and it didn't. And yeah, it's because, and the tricky part with all of this stuff. And I, and I hope I gave kind of a pretty big caveat at the beginning of this and that, you know, everything in the book is, it's a lot of techniques. And those techniques don't apply everywhere, you know. And so I think when you go to a new situation, you have to re-figure out what is the, how do we build trust in our team? How do we make things work?

Because, you know, I think generally the SpaceX way is like the way you build trust is almost more through just an intense belief in the mission. Like, it's kind of like the military in some ways in that sense. Like I often say how sometimes when I'm talking about trust and everybody starts to think, I'm thinking about touchy-feely things if we all get to know each other and we like each other. And then I show a picture of Air Force Academy in Doc where there's like a guy like standing three inches, from your face, like spitting on you and yelling at you. I'm like, that's the way the military builds trust, right? Like it's by putting people, by putting everyone through these really intense situations, that's also a way to build trust.

You know, but then if that's how you build trust at SpaceX, and then you go form some other company that isn't as intense, that isn't working on the same kind of mission that is just, you know, some random offshoot, there's no reason to believe that that trust or that culture is going to transfer. And so that's why kind of the thing that I sell on the book, even though it's not going to work everywhere, when I talk about this idea of just getting to know one another, like having more personal conversations about the things that are going on outside of work, it's not that that's the only way to build trust or the way to build trust, but it's the simplest thing that you

can do as a leader. If you just aren't sure if everyone's being willing to talk, I can almost guarantee you that if you know a little bit more about that other person's personal life and they know a little bit more about yours or about what you care about outside of work, it's probably going to be a little easier for you to have honest conversations. Do you have five facts about your people you manage, Jake? Test this theory. Five facts. Yeah.

Well, I'm trying to have to divulge too much personally identifiable information on this public show, but. If they trust you, it won't be a problem. It's 100% true. It's 100% true, right? Like, you have to, yeah, you got to find a way in there. You feel that even like on a, on a. non-manager to employee level,

but just like peers at an organization where... Yes, I'd work for... Especially working remote. Like, I worked remote since 2014. When I had a full-time gig, I was working remote for a company based in Salt Lake. We would fly out four times a year or something like that. And it was, like, flying out there was never actually a good moment

to talk about work with other people. It was just like, I stayed up too late with these people out at some weird joint in Salt Lake, and we talked about nonsense, but then we went home and worked better together because we had all that. And the company was so remote-minded at that time that that was like, that was the point. Whereas a lot of people are like, let's get the company together to talk about, you know, work stuff. And it's like, no, we do that all the time. Actually, all the other stuff is the is the intangible aspect that makes the rest of the year actually work well. Yeah. Yeah. I tell us to about that. Go for it. I was going to say, we did the exact same

thing when I worked at a corporate job, right, with Best Buy. We always had to fly out to Toronto for various events. And like it was always like, you know, a gong show. Like I, I, I feel like I'm divulging secret company stuff here. But like, we would often just go there and like every night, we just get really drunk after work. Right. Like it's just a stay in up way too late, getting up way too early. You had like Vancouver jet lag. I got three hours of sleep at night for an entire week. And then you come home and you're just like dead. And it's like, did you get anything done? You're like, not really, but also a lot. Yeah. The next three months will be easier. Yeah. I got no work done, but I came home with 30

new best friends. So I know everyone's feelings on Connor McDavid now. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, it's a thing, right? It's a, it's got to go and be vulnerable with people sometimes. Yeah, there's a story in the book that I tell about when I was at SpaceX and these two teams merged and the teams had animosity for various reasons.

And it's still my belief to this day that like there was just one night where I stayed a little bit later with folks just kind of shooting the shit. it was a couple of people who had a lot more experience in the industry in me, and they were just kind of telling war stories, and I was talking about stuff that I remember from flying the KC10. And it totally changed. It just changed our relationship. It wasn't perfect, but it changed our relationship.

Come on. Tell us the story. Why was their animosity? Come on. See, Chris. See, Chris. No, it was, there was a big, you know, there's a lot of big reorgs during the time I was there,

as they were restructuring to prepare for, Starlink and Starship. And my team, which had been HR, in HR, got merged with a production training team. And we got put under quality. And so we were just two teams that were kind of doing the same thing, but from different angles of the company. And so it's just natural. And part of this was, I was very inexperienced as a leader at that time.

And so I was probably doing a poor job of managing those relationships to begin with. But then we got pushed together. And so we had to figure it out. That's all. It's really basic office politics. I thought it was going to be like the avionics team had it out for the engine TVC or something. They left a fish in my desk. Yeah.

They're the ones that put the wrench in that piping at Boca Chica. Whatever happened that one time there's like all that random hardware down there. Yeah, the Gatorade bottle at the bottom of the tank. Yeah. I mean, that stuff happened too. different teams different teams the intensity thing that you're talking about too right is I wonder for

SpaceX had so many of those stories where people were in far-flung destinations with like no resources and a lot of the company lore was that and yeah is there was that a component of like the initial DNA that that caught hold at SpaceX or just weird in that they decided. I would think so. Sounds too relevant to like yelling each other's faces

and living rough for a couple of days on Omalik Island or whatever. Yeah, no, I'm sure it was a big part of it. I'm sure it's a big part of why so many people did and still to this day have been there for so long. I don't think there's a lot of companies that have gone through the kind of growth that they have and held on to as many early senior leaders

as they did for for so long. And it's, I got to believe a lot of it has to do with that, that early intensity. Yeah. The forged and fire. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so the challenge is it's just like, that's why it's so hard to replicate.

And so important to think about if you're, you know, because one thing, most people don't want to do that just straight up, right? Like most people don't want to go through that kind of intensity. And so if you're, you know, when you're thinking about how do we create, these intense situations to build trust and bring people together. I think that's a big part of being a manager of thinking of knowing your team, knowing what they're willing to do, knowing what they're not willing to do. I mean, one of the phrases that I think I used when we talked on MECO was kind of what I think

of as the other end of this. If there's minimum viable, it's like the first things you do, what's like the extreme edge of this stuff. And one of the things is making people uncomfortable. You need to be comfortable making other, or you need to, make people comfortable being uncomfortable. How do you create that kind of environment? Because for all those early SpaceXers,

they kind of self-selected and like they had a really high pain tolerance. They were willing to be pretty uncomfortable. That's the aspect that sounds more like the military stories that you write about, right? Yes. I was wondering that too. Like going into that experience, there's an aspect of knowing that that's the kind of interaction that you're getting

into and that like, I don't know, when you're enrolling, enlisting, and you're going through training, how much, how prepared did you feel for that, that you knew that was going to be the interaction method method and that you couldn't, I don't know, I assume you did take it personally sometimes, but like, did you, were you able to separate that at all even from the early days? Well, I mean, on the one hand, yes, I absolutely knew that is something that, that's, you know what that's going to deal, that that's what you're going to deal with. Two, it can still be personal. Yeah. There are still people who are going to make it personal. But the point you bring up, I think, is really important in that anybody who's interested in making an outlier organization

needs to broadcast that they want to be an outlier organization. You know, I think that you want to, you almost want to advertise. This is something that Netflix actually did. like the point of the Netflix culture deck when they released that back in like the mid-2000s was to make it absolutely clear that if you didn't like this culture, you weren't going to apply. You know, they emphasized the things that made them different. And so that's a thing that I think is clearly true at SpaceX is clearly true at a lot of companies. The only reason why I think the air in this is when you have, you know,

recruiters with really tight deadlines of needing to sell people on a dream. and they sell a culture that isn't real. That's never going to work. But as long as you're open about it, you want to impress those things that are going to be different about you if you're trying to create an outlier culture. Yeah, that's a sufficient hiring too, right? Because then you can weed out the interviews you don't want to actually take, right?

So, yeah. Yeah. Forget just making culture. You got a lot of people to hire and you want to do it in an efficient way. It's like the culture version of it. of posting the salary range, yeah. Yeah, no, yeah, it's true, it's true. But the trick is separating, you know, from the person that might want to work there,

separating who's just saying this to who actually means it and isn't just using it as like an aura of like, I want to, I don't know, like, are you saying it because it is or are you saying it because you want it to be? And there's a fine line between you want it to be and you're just very early and you haven't done that yet, or you want it to be and everybody, knows that it's not how it is here, you know? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's definitely there, there's, I'm definitely not the expert in hiring.

I know a lot of really amazing recruiters who are, but yeah, that's the, that's the, those are the things. What's your real culture? What's the reality of the person who's, who's trying to come in there? But, um, but yeah, that, that's where you start building the trust is being open and honest about your culture. I feel like, uh, this is the SpaceX team going through it right now. laying on top of Starship in Christmas Island, which, Jake, I don't know if you had,

I feel like you said you hadn't known about Christmas Island before this whole situation. I think I've like heard the term before, like the, I've heard of this place, but I knew absolutely nothing about it. Like I couldn't put it in the right hemisphere if you asked me. Like it's like that, that level of a knowledge on the same spot. Yeah. I feel like I. pictures are just incredible.

I got to Christmas Island because of like the reefs around it as being known as like a really interesting place or I don't know, whale sharks breed there and I feel like I've probably watched a whale shark show with my son at some point and that stuck in my brain. Deeply see. Yeah. The big ones hang out by you, Jake.

The big ones, but. I think they're in season right now too. I think they're there right now. Go check one out. You should do that. There you go. You're not going to do that? I really want to, but it is one of those

tourist experience that is now overtured. So it's like, you go to the dock and you get on a tour boat. And you're like, cool, this is awesome. And then you start driving out and you realize there's a flotilla of 200 boats going towards four whale sharks. Four angry whale sharks. Okay. Yeah.

Okay, in the water, you get 60 seconds to swim and take a picture. Then you get out and then you start your back, right? I'm not doing that. Well, these things look freaking enormous, also like whale sharks. A lot has been made about the size of this ship that's shipping Starship. do either of you have thoughts on how gigantic this thing is? The Starship shipping ship? The Starship Shipping Ship.

Is this the same one from the meme of the ship shipping ships? Shipping ships or whatever? Okay. Maybe it is. I don't know. I think there's quite a few of these. I mean, ships are just huge. Like actual, they're just enormous.

Like, there's so many of them. There's ones that, you know, they can't fit through the Panama Canal. It's crazy. Yeah. I mean, this thing's getting towed or not towed anymore. Now it's on. I haven't checked in on this boat. Where's this boat at?

Yeah, where is it? Are we, I want pictures of it going to the Suez Canal. Yeah, sure, let's do that again. Is it doing Suez or is it doing Panama? Which direction is it going? What's shorter? I think it's going to the straight of Hormuz just to flunt a little bit. Just for fun.

What's the handle for space offshore? There we go. Our boat guy. Marine engine cutoff, as it were. There you go. Not a lot of updates. I don't know. What's the shift called?

Does it have it on the tweet somewhere? Got to zoom in on this boat. It's got a weird name. Someone in the chat. Tell us what this boat is named. Yeah. Chat, tell us the boat name. There are a lot of boats on marine traffic.

Matt, the stories of these people flying out to Christmas Island had to be the most early SpaceX sounding story. any of us have heard in a long time of like you have 10 minutes pack a bag you're getting on this plane and going to a little island in the Pacific does this instill a great sense of nostalgia for you well no it's because by the time i feel like i did all my time doing that before at spacex like i spent my time out in the desert when i was in the military i you know i've worked 70 days in a row without a day off and uh you know i i did all that when i was in the military so um luckily i joined SpaceX when it was a little, you know, because I think about that a lot. You know, I'm talking to all the,

now I work with a lot of startups. I'm talking to a lot of people. Like, would I, I want to go that far? Like, I don't know if I could anymore. I think now I'm going to a different person now too. You got children and stuff. And I think now I'm, yeah, you wait until after your kids are out of the house and then you get like a new renaissance, you know, when you're in your 50s and then you go do it again maybe. But for now, I'm good. I don't, I don't know if I'm getting on a plane to Christmas Island. I think we should go and just hang out that Christmas Island. It seems like a rad place to hang out, but it would be. Did you see the pictures of like the school kids that they brought out there? How cool was that? I don't think I saw that. They did a little doer. Yeah,

there was like, because there's a school on Christmas Island that it looks like it's, you know, filled with people who were probably from all over the, all over the world. And they did a little boat tour with them out to tool around Starship while it was still before they picked it up out of the water. It looked pretty cool. That's pretty cool. that's the thing that I think SpaceX has gotten the best at and this goes to everything that they're doing with Louisiana as well

I think they are just some of the best in the hard tech world about thinking about the bigger picture like PR landscape of getting people on their side versus just like I'm sure there's an angle of the story where it feels like they're just steamrolling everything but I think they're they're putting a tremendous amount of effort into they have like the the amazing PR benefit of just like just being competent you know like they don't have to spin anything they're

just like hey kids you want to see the biggest rocket that's ever been imagined we made like 30 of so here you go like here we don't have to we don't have to make any information up it's just literally this is what it is like you know and they continue to replicate that and so the PR just remains easy and easy and easy and all the time. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's true. I think that's true. All right. Jake sent me the map of Forte, by the way, if we want to see. So it is on this very understandable map. It's not that far away. I think it's going under. It's going all the way around. They're saving the money. They're not spending those those Suez Canal fees. Oh, they're going under the Cape. Capa good hope. Is that that one? Right. Yeah. Yeah.

And then do if that's a long. Take it up there. I mean, that's just about as opposite side of the world as you can get. What is the, I got to look at it. What's the antipode from Starbase? What's the antipode of Starbase? Yeah. Because it's close. This is close.

Actually, I think Christmas Island is probably close to my antipode, right? Might be. I'm going to see. All right. Let's see. I mean, if it's, you know, given that it's basically just a ballistic trajectory, it should be pretty spot on.

I look at you doing sensible math and stuff here. Logic. Yeah, yeah. Okay, right now, actually, as we record this, so yellow is the antibodal point. It looks like it is almost exactly there.

Like, based on where this circle is, right? We got the Maldives here. This is a terrible map for trying to explain things to people, but it's, Do south of Sri Lanka. So let's see.

It's zoom in here. It's almost exactly at the antipodal point at this moment in time. So it has one and half of Earth to go to get back to this. That means that it went the long way. Right. Well, I mean, around Earth. Yeah, it went. There was a shorter line, but it went through the canal.

Did the Panama can. It's not cheap to go to the Panama. And what? They don't want this back in California? It would have been too much. to access to land it in Canada and in California or something? I don't know. They'd be waiting outside.

We're not shipping it anywhere if you land in California. That's true. Put it on the high speed rail. Shoot it up your way. Get it right up in your neck of the woods. Don't talk to me about that. Too personal. What do you all think?

Why do you think they're bringing it back? What are they going to learn from it that they haven't learned already? Or is it just like just because? It's 40. 99% cool factor and 51% well I may as well look at the tiles while we got them. Yeah. But Matt's point is you could just,

they're wet laying on top of them out there. They're looking at them. Yeah, they've looked really close. That's the thing that I'm really intrigued about is what are they going to still learn? Is there more to learn or is it just, well, just in case.

Maybe there's something else we can claim. I feel like it's so we got to get it back thing. Yeah. Yeah. Has anyone calculated the. cost of this? What is the cost of this recovery operation? I can't even imagine.

Getting, I mean, getting it back is rad. Right? Like, that's a cool. It's at least $2 for sure. Yeah. How much it is to ship something to you, Jake, from my house. Not even kidding. Yeah, I mean, putting this on display at Starbase is that's going to look,

it's going to, because it's also going to be so ratty when it gets back. It's going to got, it's going to have barnacles and weird shit, right? Like, that's going to be a vibe. Yeah. It's funny to think, though, like how quick watching that landing, how quickly did they have the reaction of like, oh, we got to go get it. Oh, shit, it's intact. We got to get it.

It seemed like it was a slow process, though. Like, it seemed like they assumed it would, you know, sink or something because it was weeks before it seemed like they were committed to getting that. because I thought the ship was already in Australia. It had been there for a while, but it was weeks before they actually, you know, got that one and brought it up. So,

yeah, it seemed like it was a process. Maybe it's just cheaper than blowing it up, like whatever the ordinance would be to actually sink this thing. Maybe nobody would let them. Is there any kind of like, what would they, what would it take,

you know, to get, you know, to get those kinds of explosives? You can't bring it down. You're not allowed to bring it down there. You might find the missing airplane. So,

That's a great point, honestly. It's true. It's true. It's just killing it on the content today, Jake, on the references to things. That is still a crazy story. Human tragedy. Yeah, that's still unbelievable. And the CNN was like, did it, did a black hole emerge and suck it into black hole or whatever? What a moment in time.

Can't count it out. It's true. The weirdest part of the story is it is like, it seems like no one wanted to accept the very, obvious thing that it just fell in the entire ocean and it's hard to find the airplanes in the ocean. Yeah. Like that's it, guys. It's just, it's in the ocean. Ocean is big. I can tell you exactly where it is. It's in the ocean. Yeah. Well, Starship will not be. Yeah, I mean, I guess I assume they were just like, oh, it'll sink. It'll sink. It'll sink. It'll sink. Shit. It's not sinking. I guess we got to

get it. And then at that point, you know. And then they were, they were tugging it back first. they got the tugboats first, right? And they were like, and they were bound for Australia. So I think originally they were hoping to tow it to port. And then something changed. Like they were, did they have rough seas or something? And they couldn't,

they were like stuck. They couldn't make a lot of progress. Yeah. It was just too much. Yeah. So I think they pivoted at that point, right, to go to Christmas Island and then find the ship, right? Yeah.

Yeah. They iterated. It's a nuts. It's a nuts storyline. Yeah. Also, by the time they get it back, like, will be well on the way.

The next flight will have flown probably by the time they get this thing back. Yeah. I'm anxious to know where the next flight is going to splash down now. Do we know officially that it's not in the same spot? They're filing for a catch, right? Yeah. No, I thought they're not. Yeah, I thought they said now they're not doing that.

The booster is maybe, but the ship is a no, I think. Yeah. Oh, I thought it got cleared for the ones around. No, they backed off that really, really quick. Oh. Which, yeah, always felt like nonsense to me, but I don't know, man. Like, they're nervous about bringing the booster back right now because they don't want to harm the launch site. Like, part of this does feel to me, like, they should have had a catch area and a launch area separate from the start and then put them in the same thing.

Like, because they seem very nervous. I mean, the booster, I don't know. Matt, you know better than we do. Does it feel like, as you would expect? They just feel very tentative to both go to full orbit and then also catch this booster because they keep having these things happen. Yeah, I think they're being careful. You know, you always want to think about what are, you know, what are the risks you're willing to take? It's like the, you know, one-way doors and two-way doors kind of from Amazon speak of making decisions. And, you know, it's. Yeah, blowing up your launch pad is a pretty one-way door. Sure is. Yeah. Versus just letting it splash down. So, I mean, to me, they've entered a new phase now where after the last flight, I do not care how long development takes anymore because as long as they can go orbital

and launch V3 SATs every launch, it's a money-making machine. Right. Right. And that money-making machine is only going to get bigger as, First, I would be surprised if they're not, if they don't reuse a booster before the end of the year. Even though they haven't even captured any, like the experience from V2 boosters says that they kind of know what's going on and they can turn it. They'll probably be able to turn one pretty quickly. And as long as a launch costs less than 20 Falcon Nines, pretty good to go.

admittedly is how the rest of the industry also feels. Well, we're only 2019 Falcon 9s. It's not that bad. No, you're right, though, because exactly how I felt that they've now, we got to the point where now testing looks like what Falcon 9 testing looked like, where it does a thing that's useful and then does a test. We've made it there finally. So that's good news.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The only weird thing about it that you all have touched on several times on the show is, you know, that I've been thinking about. I think I actually posted something on X earlier is like, no matter is that this is going to be really successful, this is all going to keep growing, they're all going to do all this amazing stuff with Starship. And it's going to have approximately zero ramification on the rest of the space industry, which is weird.

It's uncomfortable, for sure. Yeah, yeah. I feel like in the last We'd be launching so much into space. Yeah, the last six months we've like moved to a place where we're just, we have no idea what to think about SpaceX. Like it's just like, I mean,

I know what I think about them, Jake. I've been very clear from the get-go. I've been unshaken on this. Yeah, but like even that, like, your, your, your take on SpaceX for a while now has been like, they're unquantifiable. Like, you know, so like you were just there earlier than.

Yeah. And now we're like, you're like, you're right. But I don't even know. I'm trying to quantify it. Now, the market's trying to quantify it, and it's going like this, and no one knows whether it's funny now. My wife's been very annoyed at me because I will read any article written about SpaceX

and, like, can we justify this valuation on Starlink alone? I'm like, no, they're going to be the largest producer of natural gas. They're going to produce most of liquid oxygen that gets produced on Earth. They have decided that to do anything they want to do. They have to be the largest company in several industries. So, like, that's the analysis is if you think that they can do it. but they have stated in no uncertain terms, we must, because of all the things,

the decisions we've made, we must be the largest company in many industries to do any of the things. So it's, but I keep seeing people saying, like, is it even feasible to grow this thing to that thing? And I'm like, they told you already that, like, the Tam wasn't joking. I think people just read the Tam as like,

that means Starlink subscribers and AI usage. I'm like, no, also all these other things that they have to do because no one makes enough chips or natural gas for them. That's ridiculous. It's a stupid idea, honestly. The thing that I think makes it difficult isn't so much figuring out the valuation of SpaceX. It's figuring out the valuation of every other space company because they're so completely disconnected.

And I think the thing that I think is interesting is, you know, there were all these people in the industry who said reuse doesn't make any sense because of how many flights it would take to make up that money. And maybe they were right because if it had. been for Starlink, the average Falcon 9 core would have flown about four times by now instead of getting some of them up into the 30s. And so the interesting thing is that we're talking about a crunch in launch. I actually think there's a crunch in things to be launched, right? If we fast forward a few years and we have Taryn R, New Glenn, Neutron, Nova, all these rockets flying

in order to make the economic case for four reusable launch vehicles to be flying, we probably need to at least 10x, if not more, the amount of stuff wanting to go into space. Yeah. And there's some people starting to talk about the man. For all those times, we're like,

oh, we can't do anything more in space because rockets are so expensive and there aren't enough of them. And it's like, okay, here you go. Oh, shit. I don't actually have anything. Let me find a cube set or something. What are we going to send? What engineering units of my Mars rovers, Jake? Yeah, exactly.

Oh, shit, we got this old rover here and I'll send it to the moon, I guess. I got to. Why not? Yeah. Yeah. But that's the weird. In the equation that I think, when I was at SpaceX, I remember thinking my worry was that we're going to get Starship to work and there's going to be nothing to play.

in it. You know, like, we're going to be ready to go to Mars and we're going to have nothing to put on Mars. And I think that's kind of more of the situation that we're potentially going to be in. But everybody that wants to argue about it in that era was like, SpaceX isn't even working on X, Y, Z thing that they need to put on Mars. And you're like, no, our thing was like, we just want to fly a rocket there. What goes in it is not our department. But everyone it is like, but it is your department. And then you're like, no, it's not our department. Yeah. So. Yeah. Yeah. Well, the joke was like, there's going to be a first pizza hut on Mars.

Listen, the most depressed I've ever been about going to Mars is when I was in Reno, Nevada, and I was like, this was like, this was when I got engaged in my wife. So this was 2015 driving through Reno. We were going to Lake Tahoe. And I was like, Reno is probably the ultimate version of what I could expect Mars to look like in my lifetime. Like, there are fast food restaurants, some hotels, and a couple people live here, and it looks brown as hell. Like, this is as good as Mars gets. Yeah, I'm like, that's terrible. That's not interesting at all. You either want to be like the first 30 people when you have a cool science lab or, yeah, but you want to be the first 30 people that get to work in the cool science lab that looks like a fucking Lego set that you would have built when you were a kid. Or you want to be like the one absolute one millionth person on Mars when there's like a sports game to attend.

It's like anywhere in the middle is just not that fun. On today's episode of Offnominal, Anthony discovers that being a pioneer sucks. Bad lifestyle. Like my East Coast living out here. Take us from a guy who grew up in a place that never understood what people meant when they were like, I left town. I'm like, that's not possible. There isn't the end of towns.

You go from one town to the next till you get to Philly or New York City. Those are the two options. And maybe Atlantic City if you go the right direction. Like, those are the options. And then when you leave there, there's more towns until the water on the other side. Like, how do you mean you leave town? And then I road trip through the West Coast and Utah. And I'm like, oh, I get it.

You're going really fast. And now you can only go 30 miles an hour. I get it. So, yeah. We've broken good ground here, I think, today. Well, I want to ask specifically about the stress of, are we going to have anything to launch? Because we've ruminated for what feels like long. enough that we feel very prescient that SpaceX at some point will stop being a launch services

company because the value of them launching their own things is so much higher than whatever else they would launch. Was that thought at all in the in the in the in the air at SpaceX historically? Or do you think that's something that has set in more and more as they've as they've watched the rest of the industry do what it's doing? Yeah, I don't think so. I mean because I was you know, I was the time I was there was when in the middle of that pivot like when we put when when Starlink became a thing when Starship became a thing. And Starlink was very much, I mean, that first, I don't know how much, I have no idea how much of a joke.

I mean, it was clearly a joke, but it was the first IAC presentation when Elon was like, how are we going to pay for this? We're going to steal underpants. Yeah. You know, like, there was clearly like, we don't know where this money is coming from. We got to figure it out. And, you know, at some point that came to Starlink. But I do not remember that at all in a thing back then.

It was always very much where you are. a launch services provider in order to make life multi-planetary. Like we're building the trains to take us somewhere. And yeah, and so it's, to me, it seems like a big shift, which will be interesting how that, how that plays out. You know, it's like imagine, I don't know, what's a good analogy? Imagine for the first 10 years of railroads, all they moved were phone poles. More railroads?

Or more railroads. Yeah. Like, that's all they did for 10 years is move railroads around. And they never moved people. You'd be like, what, like,

what are we doing here? But that's kind of, you know, the case that it looks like we might be in. Yeah. Other than Artemis. Artemis will be a thing. I guess you have to try to make like the,

you have to extend your imagination to a point where like, eventually if you take enough railroads, you get to the other side, and then you make the town and then everybody wants to get there. And then you're all set up. right. That's probably the town is just Reno. And you're like, shit. Sorry, Reno.

I'm sure someone out there lives in Reno. I apologize. You can apply for a plot of land from the Elon Musk Commission of Land Grants and then, you know. Jake, I hope no one emails us saying, I live in Reno. We have zero listeners in Reno. I really do. You may get one email from someone from Reno who's like,

no, you're right. It sucks. Yeah, right. I wonder, though, the impression that the rest of the industry takes from this, that, like, I guess we got to build enough to launch our own shit. Like, the idea of operating a launch services company, that the shine wore off that a couple of years ago. Probably around the time when Rocket Lab openly expressed,

yeah, we're a space services and components company. I feel like we all kind of grew out of. the phase of our life where we're like, well, a true launch services company has never been tried. It's like the thing that we might say, right? But it's just not that good of a business. Yeah. So when we look at people trying to actually compete with SpaceX on launch services, that gets really complicated then when you're no longer competing with them because they've exited the launch services business in that way. And then what do we do? Reset the clock until another one achieves escape velocity

and, you know, a rocket lab constellation goes well or Blue Origin and Amazon sort out who's doing what and who's on first and then they get a consolation and then they achieve escape velocity and we kind of have this farm system of space companies who might put it all together end to end enough to then move into the next tier.

It doesn't feel healthy, but I also... Space is weird. It doesn't really have the analogs to the industries we might have... We might write storylines where, how is launch services similar to commercial air travel and air shipping? It's like, well, it's not that. How is it comparable commercial sea shipping?

It's not really that. It is so unique because the margins and the tech level that you need to do it, it's always been unique. But that's frustrating that we can't make it like those other things. Well, and the unique thing is the thing that we're still waiting on, and, you know, Jared and NASA have talked about this before is like, I think the thing that we're still, this came up for the last time we were on the show, or I was in the show is what's the thing that makes it worth it?

Like what's the market you're transporting to? You know, and so communications has always been a thing. Ground observation has been a thing. Tourism is like a super like kind of a thing, hopefully. But even, you know, from what I hear, you know, Vast is struggling to get a lot of people to sign up for that kind of stuff. And so what is that other thing that's going to make it really worthwhile? because, you know, scientific exploration is only going to provide so much more money. So we got communications.

I think there's a really good case to be made for data centers now that it's getting really hard to build them terrestrily. And so that totally makes sense. And that'll be a whole new thing. I think I've heard rumors that that was one of the reasons Eric Schmidt bought relativity to begin with because he was already thinking about that in the future. Like computers. So, yeah, they're going to do.

And so what's the thing? Is it going to be mining? Is it like they're neat? Because in every other case, there's always been an economic reason to go to that place. The transportation itself wasn't the end, right? We were trying to find a spice route. We were trying, we needed to find new land.

Like there was some economic or cultural reason to be out there. And I think there's, you know, for these other launch providers, SpaceX has gotten big enough now where they can kind of write their own ticket, whereas many of those other launch providers still need that nugget that people want to go after. I kind of wonder sometimes if, like, what we're seeing now with data centers is like the beginning of a new trend, because, I mean, like, you know, Bezos has talked a lot about moving industry into space, right?

That's like part of the blue origin ethos. It's like, well, take all this like shit that we don't want to happen on Earth, and we move it to space, and it's like, okay, well, that kind of makes sense. but also moving entire industries is like a hard thing to do, right? Like I can't just like go and just take all the factories and put them in space. Like that's just, you're just never going to do that. It'll never make sense from a capital allocation stamp. Right.

But data centers are a new thing. Like we've built some, but we want to build a lot. They don't exist yet. So we have the choice now to like we could put them on the ground or we can now take this opportunity because we have this infrastructure to get to space. That is now an option on the table, right? And so is data centers like the first of many new industries over the next call it 100 years where, you know, we just from the beginning, we just say, no, they start in space and that's what we're going to put them. And that's just how that goes, right?

And then the stuff on earth doesn't get moved. It just fades into irrelevance. Then we shut them down. Right. So it's like you don't move them. You just transition in a sense, right? It's the same thing that's happened in energy. You know, from what I understand, I think the world is.

still producing about the same amount of energy as it ever has from coal. It's just a much lower percentage of the total energy that we create is made from coal. And so it's that same thing as over time. Finally reaches end of life. You don't replace it. Right? You just sort of, okay, shut it down, you move on, right? Yeah.

Yeah. Nothing's clean cut, right? Yeah, and that's where a lot of these, you know, you had recently on, you know, talk companies working on reentry vehicles. That's where, you know, making it so it's easier to come back, becomes more and more of a thing because the more we're producing out there. And then ideally, if we're producing it there, I can't imagine this ever like taking raw or and pushing it up into orbit

so that we can smelt it and bringing it back. So you just do that. We're getting that stuff up there. Yeah. So there's tons of opportunity. But, yeah, there just hasn't been, you know, it's kind of similar to the discussion on heat shields. is just there hasn't been a lot of investment into a lot of this stuff for a very long time.

We haven't had a lot of thinking about, you know, what's the tech tree to a true space-faring civilization? Like, what are the things that need to get unlocked along the way to make it? Unless you're China, you don't get to plan out the tech tree and tackle it one by one. Like every step on the tech tree needs to be a self-sufficient goal under its, like, you know, unto itself, right? So that's the really hard part is you got to invent a use cases along the way. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and this is ultimately, you know, to selfishly bring it back to the book, like this is kind of the intro to the book of why I wanted to write it is because I think there's so much potential for the future, so many amazing things that we're getting ready to unlock.

And we need hundreds and thousands of new companies to be formed and grown. And the, a little bit of the little challenge in that that I'm trying to help with that I want to help with is that all those companies need great managers. All of those companies need their engineers to have some people management capability in order to be successful. You know, because you all have Dr. Z on and you talk with people where normally, I mean, if you look at every space disaster, aviation disaster in history, it all comes back to culture and leadership is why they happen, right?

It's never or rarely a technical thing that's the root cause. It's some kind of people problem that's causing it the vast majority of the time. It's people all the way down. That's my bitch. Ohio meme always has been. And I'll tell you what, Louisiana is going to have to have some good managers to build out this big thing. Speed run this. Give us a thought.

Starbase Louisiana. We need speed run thoughts. No, I think it's awesome. I think like the, they're doing all the right things. I'm a big believer in, you know, my time at SpaceX taught me that, you know, and exactly what they focused on in their announcement video. It was like rebuilding the Gulf Coast, bringing all these great blue collar jobs, like creating lots of economic prosperity.

I think it's really incredible. And the one thing, the question that I've been thinking about is like, how much is this them hedging their bets on just how reusable Starship is going to be? Because like if Starship truly could launch every hour, would they need that many launch sites? Or is it more like we're going to have a bunch of launch sites because we are kind of thinking that like maybe it's going to take a few days or a week to turn these things and the pad requires a good amount of rework. and it's just we're just talking about so much force that in reality from a pad we're going to launch once every few days for a ship we're going to launch it every few days.

And so that we then need 10 so that we can launch, you know, three or four times a day. I could push back on that point real quick, very, very lightly, is that in the grand scheme of like all Starship operations, if you build a few pads and then never use them, it's like whatever. It just gives them the flexibility, right? They'll build the first one and start flying of it. And they're like, we still need more. So they'll build the second one. They'll start flying it. And then they'll reach a point where they go, this is enough and then they'll stop.

Or if they go one too many, whatever, it's fine. If it gets better reusing, okay, we just close one down. It just doesn't matter. We built six and that's all we need. We're going to stop now. Yeah, no, totally. That's a good point. Not that a Gulf State loves more, Jake, than an unused test stand, baby.

We're going to finish that thing. We're going to leave it there. It's a monument. Rusted out infrastructure. It's going to fit right in, you know? Yeah. The thing that I keep thinking about is just imagine what boat travel and air travel is going to be like around the Gulf with that many rockets going over that same trajectory straight south over Mexico. The whale sharks are going to be pissed. They're going to be so mad. They're going to be furious. I think. I can't catch a break. It will be interesting because marine traffic is an issue there. There's more marine traffic. Like, flying out of Bocahika is more disruptive to marine traffic than flying out of the Cape, believe it or not.

So it's like, it's a big deal. Sure. I believe that. That's your problem, not ours. No, it's yours. It's all ships going to bring in Galveston, man. You're crossing the Panama Canal Galveston. It's not what the issue is, right?

All those cruise ships, all the poop ships are going to get rocket rained on. you know. I did a Redux version of my, uh, the show that I roped you into on this here feed, however many weeks or months ago, Jake, where we talked about,

uh, Louisiana is a good site for launching and then 12 hours later landing, uh, the same starship. Um, uh, out of, out of nowhere,

uh, I stumbled on U.S. patent number 12,000, 234,000, 339 B2, uh, which is, uh,

a repeating, ground track orbits for a reusable launch vehicle that describes methods for a reusable launch vehicle to launch and then have once a day opportunities to land at the same site. Okay, and this was for mid-inclination as well. I just want to throw this out here as

not just the sun-synchronous thing I was thinking. Here's a very helpful workflow, what is this? A flow chart? Whoever made this flow chart is an excellent flow chart maker. launch to target orbit enter target orbit perform operations in target orbit maneuver to a repeating ground track orbit enter the repeating ground track orbit i don't know why this had to be broken out so specifically

but that's the u.s patent system uh received go ahead to land yes you can go and land no stand by for one day and come around again so this idea is out there not just from the sun synchronous uh patent on orbital mechanic yes a patent a u.s 12 million 234 000 93 patent that i will or not a not 39 patent that I will leave totally unaffiliated with any other person or company. This is an idea that exists. I still think Louisiana is a primarily, like, I'm so mad, Jake. This is really what this boils down to is that I was given a riddle way before this Louisiana news came out that I should have known it was Louisiana and I didn't guess it.

And now I'm looking at this. I'm like, this is such a perfect location for what they're interested in doing that I remain enthused by it with the one caveat that we've got some, what's the denominator for Louisiana residents. Louisianaans. Cajuns. Cajans, I guess. Gulf people.

Louisiana residents. I'm curious to like dig into that a little bit on. Louisiana. Not an interesting. Especially now with the fact that we have the Bocahika storyline to go on, right, where when it started out and then, I mean, SpaceX was building out like wildlife viewing platforms and stuff. Like they've been through a lot of these storylines.

and there's this interesting balance with people begrudging that this is going to be built out on that coastline, but also that coastline is one of the most eroding coastlines in probably the world, right? Like that's losing the most land annually of anywhere. I'm like, well, there's an interesting tension in that. So what I've stated is they desire for this company to be the world's most, you know, the largest company in many industries. The vested interest in them not having the coastline erode is an interesting kind of push and pull there. The company that wants to have all the money in the world is probably the right one to actually help the coastline not erode and have a vested interest in not eroding.

So that's a weird thing to then like, how do you shake out on that? I don't know. Tricking. When you brought up Bocca, too, because it's interesting, if you think about the longer timeline of Bockechika, like that was supposed to be a Falcon 9 launch facility originally. You know, it was going to be the world's first private launch, launch site. And then it just kind of because Falcon 9 kept iterating and kept changing, they didn't have a reason to do anything. And so just sat there as land. And there was actually a brief moment from what I remember where there was a lot of animosity between the local community and SpaceX because there hadn't been any investment.

Like part of the land had been granted to them because they're like, we're going to bring these jobs. And then they just and they didn't for a really long time. And it wasn't until Starship operations kicked off. They're just like, oh, we can't do this at the Cape. like we need another place to do this. And then all the investment came in and that and that's when we really got it. So I think it will be interesting to see how it plays out in Louisiana. There's so much farther down the down the road.

But will there be a period where it's like, is this happening? Is this not happening? Like how much is happening? Or is it just like, let's go. And it's just full steam ahead right from the beginning. Because, you know, Boko Chica went through a long period where there was just nothing going on. Yeah. I kind of forgot about that era.

I remember the visualizations on the paperwork. I believe many new hires at SpaceX. It's just like, look at this, this thing we're going to build. We're going to be launching all these rockets from here, and then it just kept not happening. It was really weird. Typical SpaceX. Typical.

Scrubx. Yeah. Impossible to date. Matt, plug to the book. People, I'm going to ask you where people should buy this, but people should buy this on Amazon because it helps you the most by getting it way up the charts. I'm just going to say that.

Yeah, exactly right. Yeah. It's available in all three formats. You can get it, you know, in paperback. in digital and audiobook. My daughter even has a little blurb in it where she's recorded on the audiobook, which was a whole lot of fun. And you narrated it. This is one of the rare narrated by the author audiobooks. So that's how I listened to it. It was excellent. You did a great job. And I think other people should check it out. Thank you. It was a lot of fun to narrate it.

So yeah, you can get on Amazon. You can also get it on Barnes & Noble if you're an anti-Amazon kind of person. I also want to plug that as part of this, I'm going to be putting together a special like six-week accelerator workshop series that goes through a lot of the lessons in the book. We're going to try to put it together before the end of the year. So if anybody is a people manager right now or they're thinking about being a people manager, go to builtleaders.com forward slash accelerator.

And you can sign up for updates as we, as I plan that out. all virtual so you don't have to worry about travel or anything I'll take the high speed rail up to Matt's house no yeah don't get on that Jake I'm looking at our calendar and I'm realizing that as we talked about on the pre-show which you can get off nom dot com slash discord which we literally never plug

the fact that you can join our discord and support the show and also hang out with great people and hear our pre-show I have a, I would say off the wall theory about Jared, Jared Isaacman and what the future may hold. And we were talking about it and I was like, we probably should do this on the show at some point. So we decided that unless other news occurs, I should just roll this out. And we should, I don't know, dig through his recent long form Twitter posts and figure out. I am really excited to do this. Yeah.

Yeah. So that's happening next week, I think, Jake, unless something else intervenes. Yeah. We have to do one of those, one of those episodes, we leave a hole in the calendar just because there's, there's stuff building up in our backburner, and we got to let it smell out somewhere, you know? Mars telling Communications Orbiter,

I need some thoughts from you on that. Yeah, that's a whole thing. I'm so mad. All right, you got a good one next week then. Matt, thanks so much for hanging out with us again. Always, always good to hang out. Yeah, thanks for letting me come back on. It was great.

See you all. Buy the book. Get the book. Bye. See ya. Bye the book. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, end of death.