Off-Nominal - 58 - Wet Dress Rehearsal Dinner

Episode Date: April 22, 2022

Brendan Byrne, of WMFE and Are We There Yet?, joins Jake and Anthony talk about Artemis 1 and its “Wet” Dress Rehearsal, Axiom-1 on the ISS, and other goings-on in space.DrinksMoon Boots - Sideward Brewing Co. - UntappdHop Horizon IPA - Tröegs Independent Brewing - UntappdTopicsOff-Nominal - YouTubeEpisode 58 - Wet Dress Rehearsal Dinner (with Brendan Byrne) - YouTube1 2 3 4 5 Sixers - YouTubeLegislature votes to repeal Disney World’s self-governing Reedy Creek district in Central Florida - Central Florida News - 90.7 WMFESchedule effects of SLS rollback still uncertain - SpaceNewsNASA to Discuss Status of Artemis I Moon Mission | NASAFirst all-private station mission set to come home, splashing down off the coast of Florida - Central Florida News - Space - 90.7 WMFENASA advisors call for a visit to Uranus, plus more science during Moon landings - NPR News - Space - 90.7 WMFECatching up with NASA’s administrator & keeping an eye on the planet’s health - Are We There Yet - Space - 90.7 WMFEPrivate space station missions, Amazon’s big rocket buy and NASA’s next budget. Here’s a rundown of the latest space news stories - Are We There Yet - Space - 90.7 WMFET+214: Andrew Maximov, Founder of Precious Payload - Main Engine Cut Off119 - Cryovolcanism on Pluto (feat. Kelsi Singer)Follow BrendanBrendan Byrne (@SpaceBrendan) / Twitter90.7 WMFE - Public Radio for Central Florida – Primary provider of NPR and Classical MusicAre We There Yet? : NPRFollow JakeWeMartians Podcast - Follow Humanity's Journey to MarsWeMartians Podcast (@We_Martians) | TwitterJake Robins (@JakeOnOrbit) | TwitterFollow AnthonyMain Engine Cut OffMain Engine Cut Off (@WeHaveMECO) | TwitterAnthony Colangelo (@acolangelo) | TwitterOff-Nominal MerchandiseOff-Nominal Logo TeeWeMartians Shop | MECO Shop

TLS and go for main engine start. What is this music? What is this music? Everyone's loving this music. I was waiting to catch some hot shit for coming into this. It like totally rocks, man. It's a great song. It's a great song.

And the Sixers were up 3-0. Got to the game Monday. It was a great week. What's that the lacrosse team or which one is that? Jesus. You were just like, you were ready to just like bleed and just enjoy it. I feel so good. I got the whole music going.

Brendan, Brendan, we've never had you on video version of Off Nominal. Really? Isn't that embarrassing? Even he doesn't even realize it. Very embarrassing of us. And that's why we needed to fix it. I was thinking, it must be because like every time we're like,

you know, Anthony and I will meet and we'll be like, okay, who are we getting on the show this month and we'll put stuff together? I'm like, oh, we should get Brendan out. And we go, nah, Brendan's on all the time. Let's try someone new. And then we just keep saying that. And then eventually it just stops being true because we never actually followed through. It's been like 10 years, I think.

It's been a while. It's been a while. Actually, I think we did have you on when we were doing very shitty streams on Twitch, just playing around. I think that was an actual, I think we did back in the day. I was your guinea pig. And we assumed that you were just horrified by that experience. So we waited all the way until we had our shit together. Oh, and I just thought you, I was.

very disappointing and my invites were because of my performance. So, I think you have better communication. Let's just agree to that. Yeah, I guess you're on the Twitch episodes. I call those the lost episodes because Twitch doesn't store them. So there's just like somewhere on an Amazon backup server somewhere. There's a video of it.

I think one Jason Davis made it to YouTube. Like I think I uploaded one when we made the switch, but I think that's the only one that survived. Yeah, yeah. Because it was monthly back then, so they rolled off the 14-day archive. Yeah. Yeah. I'm sure I didn't say anything important, so it's fine.

Well, the audio is captured, so the embarrassing part is there forever. Don't worry. Oh, okay. Did you, uh, Brendan, you probably have some beer or something with you, because it's been a big day down there. Oh, I do. Just outside the outskirts of the Reedy Creek Improvement District. You're having a real humdinger of a week down there in Central Florida. It's been a real unbelievable kind of week, so I was, I was not a,

upset that I had to leave the house and pick up a fresh beer for, for, uh, for this conversation. So it was nice. I got, so I went to my local brewery. This, uh, they opened up after you guys had been here. Uh, this is from sideward brewing. Uh, they're huge, uh, space fans. And so they've got this, uh, drinking their IPA moon boots. Um, I love a little, little guy there.

I like that a lot. Yeah. So, cool. They used to have some other space theme one. called Space Camp and also Citranot, but a few cease and desist letters make that no longer the case. So that's what I'm drinking. That is incredible. And because you always have to have your branded material.

We work in public radio in this wonderful branded pine glass that has a logo. I assume you can get one of those with a nice donation. Yes, I believe it's $75 a month. We will send you one pint glass. Per month? One pint glass per month. No, no, no, no, no. And we actually switched to pine glasses.

We stopped doing tote bags and we have pun classes now. So it's actually pretty cool. It's solid. Just encroaching a little bit. I'm trying to get the end up your change. Jake, did you make a fancy cocktail? Did you go to the beer company? What did you do?

I made a cocktail and I kind of made this one up a little bit because I wanted to have a theme one for the show. Oh, nice. So I'm calling this one the wet dress rehearsal. And so it's like basically you take a margarita and then you add the orange juice, okay, because orange is the best color. Bonus points if the oranges are from Bill Nelson's farm. And then you just get the biggest, most powerful, strongest glass in your house and fill it up halfway. That's the white dresser.

54% of the way. Yeah, they're roughly right there. So there you go. Cheers. Jesus. Artemis one. Spicy start. Spicy start.

You need some betters in that for how you're feeling about things. I got the fancy expensive ice cubes too made in all 50 states. Gridegeny. Perch with helium in nitrogen, right? That's the liquid version of this. Anthony, what do you got? I have a seasonal trogues. This one called a hop...

I saw this in the store and I was like, I haven't tried this one. It's called Hop Horizon. And it is honestly one of the most delicious ones I've had from Trokes. It's like very flowery, a little bit fruity, which I'm usually not into, but it's not overpowering. Like it's just a little, nice little kick to it. Like the hoppy flowery? Yes, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's really good. And it's an IPA, but my wife even likes it and she hates them usually. But she was like, oh, this is good. And drank a whole one of the ones that I got out of the fridge for myself last night. I've been a hopped out these days. And I've been to been hopped out. So this is the first IP I'm having a while just because it's got a space dude on it. So I'm enjoying it.

I might be back on the hop wagon again. They don't do them very well in Mexico IPAs. They're still learning. And so when I went home a couple weeks ago to Canada, And it's like the first thing I did was went and bought a big big jigsized bottle of the fat tag IPA that I love. And I was just like, oh, I need this. My life again. So, yeah, I know how that feels.

All right. So where do you where I don't know, I don't really know where is. I wrote notes. You wrote notes. I added a few things just like talking points. But so we were we were talking. It was like, yeah, we want to talk about wet dress rehearsal. But how do we do a show that isn't just a huge rant?

This is like just like it could just be a huge complain fest. So we're going to try like really hard to, um, I don't know, be, be smart about our criticisms. I think it's, it's one of those situations where like, I mean, all right, I'm bored by SLS talk and new Glenn talk and like the things that's always the same theme over and over again. And those are always on the SLS side about like policy and politics and general thoughts on whether the government should be building a big vehicle or whatever.

But the stuff that's pissing me off right now is like communication strategy, general expectations, and like lower level hardware strategy, like only having one unit to test with. Program management. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And it's just like nothing about the rocket itself being a bad vehicle or, you know, everyone's like, SLS, it doesn't do anything, doesn't do this. It's like, it's not even about that. It's just about these other things that are visible. You know, they were behind the scenes for a couple years because it was just still in development. But now it's front and center that it's an actual, like we're into operations.

So now that part is unraveling. I don't know. Brendan's probably got a more front row seat to some of this stuff. But there's some real, there's like some dodginess still. Even now they're going to roll us back to the VAB and they're like, you know, we'll fix the couple things we know wrong. But there's a couple other tasks we might get ahead on. And I'm like, what are the other items? Why are there other items that you need to fix?

You didn't tell us about that. Is there other stuff to fix, too? Is this? So I assume you've been able to crack into this a little bit to some extent. No, absolutely not. No. Yeah, no. You're on the Reedy Creek feet at this point.

I'm on the Reedy Creek than Banana Creek at this point. Yeah, right. That's a very niche joke. And I wonder if anybody got that. Very local humor. Super Central Florida joke right there. It's only been 10 years since I've lived there. It's fine.

I express those same frustrations with you. I mean, communication has been frustrating. I have to choose my words wisely here, but yeah, it's been frustrating. But yeah, it is what it is, right? This is what reporting is not being able to get information that you need in a timely manner or from the same person. So there it is. Yeah. It's frustrating.

Yeah. Yeah. This like, you know, this like most recent, so we're Thursday. So it was last weekend, right? So I think a week ago is when they wrapped up that third attempt and it didn't go well. And so this is what happened. And this is why I'm like super frustrated. So they scheduled a press conference for Friday, like the day after.

And they said, hey, we're, we're going to roll back. Right. Oh, no. So I'm already losing my time. I think they said they didn't know they were going to roll back yet. They said, we're going to have a press conference to talk about the third attempt. And then they had that press conference. And they couldn't really say anything because it had only been like 16 hours or something.

And they're like, so all the answers were like, yeah, we haven't figured that out yet. Yeah, we haven't figured that out yet. Yeah, we haven't figured that out yet. So like the press conference was like what, not really that useful. But I think they just felt like they had to have one because we'd all yell at them if they didn't. And then 16 hours after that press conference, they decided everything. And they were going to roll back. And I was like, well, why don't they just wait like, you know, even just like a tweet that was like, hey, we're evaluating everything. We're going to schedule a press conference for Monday.

And we're going to have all the answers for you there. I think everyone would have been just like totally fine with that. Like, yeah, we get it. It's only been a day. You got to figure out what to do. We have the press conference on the books the next business day. Like, it's totally fine if you do that. But they had to have one.

And then they rolled it back or they decided to roll it back on Saturday. They had a second press conference on Monday. And on Monday, they didn't know what they were going to do when they got back. So the press conference didn't add anything more than the release. It was just like, we're going back. We've got a few ideas on what we want to do in the VAB. We don't know which one is right yet. We'll tell you later.

And it's like, what are we? Now, all these reporters have like, you know, two hours of their time wasted on these two press conference. And there's no extra information. I was like, ah. So I was super frustrated after the weekend in terms of like, I don't know. But it's also not. It's one of those situations where it's clear.

that they're not able to be honest in the communication of this stuff? Because, like, if I'm in charge of this, right, last week, even after the first or second issue when they had, what my line would be like, look, we're in testing, we're going to test as far as we can to find as many of these issues as we can so we can fix them all at once. But instead, it was always had to be couched in this, like, optimism around, we're still going to be able to pull everything off.

We feel good about this path forward. We feel good about this thing. where does the like is it is it just a pure like large organization thing that everything has to be couched in optimism or like what is the I don't know because it's like hey look we're testing a thing we found issues that's not no one is going to be mad about that as a general state of affairs if you're honest about it yeah yeah I think it comes down to there's there's just so many layers of you know the communication and management with with a project this big right I mean this extends to multiple NASA centers and multiple layers of people who work at NASA. And yes, the people on the ground want to just give all the information. But, you know, this is a new vehicle, right? They're absolutely learning.

And I'd be happy if they came out and just, you know, said that, you know, or, yeah, I think that that's kind of the issues. There's so many people and so many things involved in this that it is difficult to have that cohesive messaging that, you know, NASA strives for, right? They want to be able to tell their own story their way and here we are. Yeah, yeah. Here we are. Yeah, there's, there's like, there's the seeing, we're so used to seeing the way that, you know, kind of SpaceX operates where, you know, we're getting all this information, you know, in practically real time as they're testing Starship and we kind of come to expect that that's the way NASA should operate, but they're two different organizations and they don't operate that way. And I kind of, I kind of

kind of have to reality check myself sometimes and it's frustrating but it's my two sense it's interesting too because like the the uh and i know anthony you're going to have a lot to say about the the hardware in terms of like how how much there is but you know this if you if you do want to do this very tired comparison to space x i'm sorry but i'm going to do another one here though but but like this is this if this was starship this is both the the finished product that makes it to orbit for the first time. the one that hasn't come yet. It's that and it's like SN4. It's like and those are the same vehicle. So this is the vehicle that we're excited if it explodes on the pad and devastated if it explodes in the pad. It's the same vehicle. Right.

So it's really difficult to like, you know, I don't even know how you come up with a messaging strategy for that. Right. I mean, it's at a point where you're doing a calm strategy for a very impossible engineering project, right? And I mean, that's why they're having so much trouble with it, right? Yeah, it has to be successful, right? I mean, if this is not successful, this is a huge, huge, you know, punch to the gut of NASA and what they've worked on for, you know, more than a decade at this point. Like, it has to go right. And that's why the messaging is being so

carefully crafted because there are a lot of critics, not, you know, not just us. but critics that fund NASA in their other programs. So, you know, there's there's an immense amount of pressure to make this work and look successful while it does it. Yeah, yeah. And that's probably, Anthony, like, you know, thinking about what you said, like, why weren't they just be upfront, but like, hey, this is the test and we're going to find everything and be really excited and optimistic about our really, you know, innovative testing strategy.

Like, look how ahead of the curve and cool and chic we are. Like, they can't do that because this is the same vehicle. But they only say it about what they just did find. minutes ago and not what they're going to do in five minutes from now. Yeah. That's the issue. It's not that they don't have that outlook because they do, like they said it multiple times in this press conferences.

We're glad we found it now and not on launch day. It's like, well, you wouldn't have found it on launch day because you had to find it to get the launch day. So that's kind of a bullshit statement. But they don't take that same frame and say, so what we're going to do is keep filling it until we can't. And if it breaks, we'll find a whole list of things to fix because that's, as you just saw, like, we found these valve issues.

That's why we're going to do it. But they're like, no, it's next time, we're going to nail it. gonna nail it on this next one because we found all the issues now and it's like that's never going to be the case because the things are that complex so it's that that's the issue that I have is that they are taking that approach in communications but only for the immediate past and not for the near future because they the green what I don't forget the names of stuff the green run the green run it was the same thing right where they had the the first one one that didn't go well and then they ran it again and it was like you know now we

don't even think about that. Like, nobody really remembers that. And it was a month of delay in between. But they went into it. I mean, even when the first test ended, they read off like the and we're going to ship at the Kennedy Space Center, you know, like they only had the success scenario prepared. Not the like, yeah, ooh, figured something out there. We're going to have to go back and rework it. Oh, that was so funny. I'm now remembering that. Yeah, it ended in a minute. And they were like, here it is. It's coming to you, Florida. Yeah, yeah. Oh, man. No, I just, I don't know, it's, I guess it's, yeah, it's, it's super frustrating. Because they, they, they, just like you said, they're not being upfront about the, the extra work, right?

Because it seems to me like they're really trying to like just get the milestones. Like, if we hit the milestones, then that's how we know we're being successful, right? And so they keep pushing work down, which is why we're so confused. like what do you mean we have to do more work when it gets back to the VAB like you just fix the valve and the things we found there's more work to be done on this and it's like oh yeah it's not it's not ready yet like you know they did like the minimum viable product to get it to the wet dresser or so and there's still more VAB work to do but they and that pattern's been repeating because they if you remember when it was like finished at Michoud they're like it's going to Stennis

it's all done ready to be test and then they got to Stennis and they had to like build stuff on the had on the test stand. And then when the green run was done, they said it's all finished. It's going to Kennedy's Base Center. And then it sat on its side in the VAB for like a month and a half while they finished building it. You know? So like there's really like they keep doing that where they try to get the,

the milestone before the actual success criteria that gets you the milestone. It's really bizarre. I don't know. It's, I guess it's just because it's such a high profile thing. And again, I don't know what I would do entirely differently in terms of like calm strategy. But yeah, it's not a good look. And it does seem like it's like the comm strategy is coming from these different centers, right?

So if I was reporting on a story on the Green Run, I had to talk with somebody, you know, martial or status or whatever it is, if I'm worried about the or want to do a story on the wet dress, I've got to talk to somebody at KSC. But if it's a particular aspect of this mission, I got to talk to this person and get the answer that I need to have to liaise with someone else. So there's multiple, multiple layers of it that does make it so difficult. I mean, and NASA has been criticized for, you know, those different swim lanes, you know, and other projects, right? I mean, the whole fact that the workforce is spread across. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. That's a big one. So, you know, we're starting to see kind of, you know, these told you so moments. Like we should have something like that. Yeah, yeah. And this is where, so it's really interesting because, you know, beating up on SLS is everyone's favorite pastime. We're going to do it for an hour today, apparently.

And the common refrain, like the number one, number two and number three argument against SLS always seems to be that it's really expensive. And, you know, it's like a political pork barrel, whatever you want to frame it. But like I almost want to think like you would have way more success taking down SLS if you just talked about the program manager. Like, okay, the cost, we can't control the cost. Congress is going to spend the money. So now you have a rocket program. You have this much money to spend on it. Like, why isn't this thing the most amazing rocket ever and flying five times a year?

And why don't we have a moon base? And, you know, like, there's like, you could say if you would take in that money and spent it differently, forget the top line, but just like the actual program management of it. Like, that's where I think there's a huge avenue of criticism that could be much more, I guess, competent. I don't know, like it would punch harder. It was also like hard to do that while it was not in operational phase, right? When everything was in paper rocket phase for SLS and all of the things that are your competition with SLS and your hypothetical fan fiction, it's like, yeah, but this one is the one for funding at the moment.

But now it's in operations. And if this delays the whole program six months, it's like, well, that three billion line item is not going away in the budget. So, like, I don't even really understand how the accounting works. It just keeps going into, like, an SLS bank account. Like, what's the, how's that work? Because if it's just a year for your delay, but you didn't do $3 billion worth of work this year because it was delayed. How does that go?

There's, like, the government funding, you know, mystique around it that is confusing as well. Magic accounting. I don't know how it works. It goes somewhere and we make up for it later. But that's how everything is, right? Like, we allocated all these trillions for COVID and, like, half of it didn't get spent. And it's like, so is it, does it exist? did we make it?

Is it out of the printers yet? Or is it just like in a database somewhere? I don't really understand. Yeah. But no, to your point, like now that you have actual tests to point to, and it's like, why didn't any of that work, even though you told us it worked

and you were congressionally mandated to tell us, because a lot of this is about NASA being beholden to the way things go. So to compare to the Starship stuff that Brennan was talking about, like, we see it all in the open, but SpaceX doesn't have to scramble to arrange a press call,

at the end of a Thursday when it didn't work. They're just like, well, shit, that didn't work. Let's try to get tomorrow, which is the way you wanted to be. But NASA also has to say we have to be accountable. We have to report all this stuff publicly. So the constraints there make it impossible to manage in that way. Yeah. Which is, again, to like, is this the bad incentive side of why this project is not a good fit

for this kind of, you know, industry makeup? I don't know. I have a different rant. I have a hardware rant. But no, Brandon's got a thing first. My rant? I want to do my rant now. I've got a quarter of my beer, so I feel safe saying. I wasn't even expecting to cover them.

But do it in the Bill Nelson voice that you're really good at. Actually, we've only got 37 minutes up. Yeah, we got a deadline here. I wasn't even planning on covering this. So let me show you how optimistic I still am after doing this for almost 10 years. I was going out of town at the end. end of March for a wedding for a friend of mine, who you guys know, Emily Speck. I saw the tweets.

Good thing she didn't try to, yeah, good things she didn't try to, you know, plan her wedding around space stuff. But we both said to each other, you know, I guess we're not covering this. That's fine. And, you know, then it was like, yeah, we're still covering this. Like I got back a few days before her and was like, yeah, I have to cover this. So I didn't do like any prep work, any planning. Because I'm like, as is off my, I don't have to do this anymore.

You were going to the wet dress rehearsal dinner is what you were going to instead of the wet dress rehearsal. Exactly. And we both thought that Axiom was going to go while we were there. And I remember it was delayed at her wedding. And I looked at my phone and I'm like, I'm not telling her that she's going to go back and cover this. So that was my only thing. Like, this was supposed to happen. It was off my plate.

But it's been out there a long time, man. It's over a month now, right? You want to know like a really crazy stat about the wet dress rehearsal pad time. The Artemis 1 rocket has literally watched four Falcon 9s fly past it. That's wild. Isn't that crazy? And it's not the one this morning is not going to be the last one at sees either. So that's like, oh, my goodness.

I know that I know. There's going to be a lot of people on those too. Yeah. And I know they're like different wrong. I know. It's an optics thing. No, it's an optics thing. It's an irony thing.

It's like all this stuff. The press. The conversationing, it's an optics thing because it's a government project. The optics of a bunch of astronauts flying by you is not great. It's just not a great look. Our friend John Krauss down there is trying to take pictures. He's like, man, how many more shots can I get with Falcon 9 in front and Artemis one behind it? He's like, I'm kind of bored of this composition.

We've got to come up with something new. I've got four different ones now. And it's just like, oh, my goodness. So, yeah. There's a real cool of Ben Cooper just shared with the, with the crew four and the Starlink Falcon 9 launching behind it. So it's really wild to see those composition shots. Like, you know, it's awesome.

It's so cool to see that. Yeah. Yeah, it's nice to see two rockets on the pad. And I totally forgot about Starlink today. I just, that's what we're talking about? I look. Yeah. That's a nice.

How cool is that? That's a dirty rocket. Yeah. That one's been, that 12. Seen some shit. Yeah. Yeah. It's been around.

Yeah. Okay. So, all right, you feeling, feeling better? Are you getting rants off our chest? Who's ready for my hardware, rent? Who's ready? I'm ready for it. This one's been like eight years in the making.

You've been like refining. It is, but I've got an even better angle to it at the moment. Okay. I think because I think one of the earlier episodes of Off Nominal was when they dropped the locks dome and it set the whole program back months because they had one of them. Like they literally had one dome and they dropped it and they were like, got to make the second one. we always knew that SLS was incredibly hardware poor. They're working on one stage to both test and fly.

They, to their credit, seemed to be a little quicker on the second and third stages. Or the second and third stages. They're like in progress, right? There's photos of them coming together on a quicker timeline than it seemed like the first one was. But it's always been a very hardware poor program. They had the static test article or like the,

what's the, is that the right words? that I'm looking for. Is that the one that they blew up with the... No, well, they had that one. Structural test article that they had. Yeah, that they brought in with the boat. I think you were there, Brendan, when they rolled that out. And it was just like a...

Oh, yeah, the Pathfinder, right? Yeah, it was just like a fake looking thing. A wireframe one? Yeah, it was, but it was like the right weight and balance and all that. Yeah. So they had enough planning in the program to make those kind of test articles. And not enough to jam in a couple other flight-like tanks to do tanking tests on. because ideally there's a bunch of stuff that goes into the actual flight unit that you wouldn't need to do to just test the ground systems out.

And my issue is if, like, if you want to take the tact that SLS is a jobs program and the idea is to create a lot of jobs, do you know it would make a lot of jobs? Making like four times the amount of tanks that we have. So if this is purely a like pump money into my Alabama district, pump money into your Alabama district and make four other tanks. and test them. Like that would be, that would be the proof that this is a jobs program because you're not doing anything

with the tanks, you're just filling them and throwing them out, putting them in the rocket garden. So it's kind of like poking some holes in the hole. This is just a, you know, slush fund for Alabama thing.

Unless, hear me out, if you scale it much more, do you have to invest in more automated processes and keeping it at one it's all made by hand by people? Just keep it super craftsman experience. All right, putting my tinfoil hat.

But no, still, to hire four times the amount of people. That's my point. It's a jobs program. You've just, there's a new factory. You've built a new factory now. Now you have, doesn't outfit the whole factory. There's a bunch more tooling. You have to, like, it is a way to manufacture a lot of jobs and a lot of money into your district.

So even if that is true, if that argument is true that everyone levies, like, let's see it. Pump those rocket stages out and test these things before it's the one that has four engines on the bottom and is ready to fly. you know, in two months or whatever. I think it was a jobs program. And now you're getting to the point where Congress is just like, okay, this thing needs to launch. We've already given you this amount of money, do something with it. You know, if they made that case early on in the program, yeah, you know, I think that'd be right. But you can't come to it and say, you know, well, we've invested, you know, how many billions at this point.

We're going to need a few more to build some test tanks. Don't worry. We're going to create some jobs where, you know, Congress is now like, well, listen, you've got. SpaceX now is coming at you with so much, you know, cheaper costs. You're not getting your four tanks. Like, you know, Anthony wants. Just get this thing fine. But like, and I think that's a valid argument in 2014 or whatever.

Yes. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, the job program thing is, is a lot more palatable when it's in like the PowerPoint stage, right? Because it's just like, yeah. Yeah, we're paying a bunch of people. They're inventing stuff.

And, you know, going through a lot of reviews. And they're like doing some well. test. You don't have to really show anything for that. That also, the timeline-wise, that is the time in which the line was like, this is all shuttle hardware. We're doing the same thing shuttle was. So it wouldn't be logical that you needed all those tanks because we just filled a bunch of external tanks and launched them. So it's almost like the fact that this has spanned those eras is it didn't set them up for success because they couldn't make those arguments then

that we know they needed, but they couldn't politically then, and now it's coming back to bite them in the new era when it is obvious that there are like 13 super heavy articles in Boca Chica, and they're just throwing some out because they made too many. Yeah, yeah, SLS is really the opposite of the head of its time, right?

It's like just missed, it's like the last step in the wrong time, right? It's got its one arm, the old world and one arm in the new world and it doesn't know who it is anymore. But yeah. Yeah. And I guess like, you know, because that's, and that's a good point because they always have that, there's always been that weird like cognitive dissonance with what it is, right? It is both like legacy hardware, nothing new. You can count on it. It's reliable. It's cheap because we just grabbed all the old stuff. And it's like cutting edge never before seen amazing, brand new, 3D printed bolts on the RS 25.

Like it's, you know, you've never seen anything like this. Like, this is why we test, right? Like, you know, it's both of those things at the same time. And it's like, it's such a weird line to walk when you're trying to do. Like, actually, I have, like, sympathy for the people that have to speak on behalf of this program for those reasons. Because it's like, yeah, we got lots of experience with this and we've never done it before. Yeah, it's not easy. It's tricky.

It's tricky. Space is hard, right? space is hard. Space is hard. I don't know. You reframe my thinking, though, like how all the decisions that should have been made were had to be made in an environment

where all the arguments were different. So we're, it's kind of like presentism, right? Like, we're arguing about a program that was a decade ago, but we're arguing it with today's eyes, which is completely irrelevant. But you can still fix that in the moment, right? just except by scaling up.

You can make the exact same thing. Just make more of them and like, let's go. Right. And, but they don't, right? So, like, I just, you know, how much criticism would there be of SLS and Orion? If, like, there was Orion on the pad right now, one at Gateway, one in orbit of the moon. There was, like, two landers on the surface. Then, you know, there was like a production facility.

They had to buy another Pegasus. They're, like, shipping. If all that activity was happening, like, if it was that level of thing, we're like, wow, like look at all this moon. I know it's expensive, but look at all this moon stuff. It would be such a different conversation. Totally.

And they could do that with that much money. They could. It's possible. So you could have the same amount of spend, but with a better program. And that would be, that's, that's the hardest thing for me to go to bed with.

I just can't just like, oh man, this rocket could be so much better without changing anything about it. All of it needs congressional funding. You have to navigate, you know, the Congress to get, the money for all that stuff. And it's extremely difficult to do that, especially over multiple

administrations that have changing priorities and what they want to do. I've covered Bill Nelson, you know, since I've been a reporter when he was a senator. And, you know, he's like, it's not rocket science. It's political science. That's the line he uses all the time. Or no, no bucks, no bucks Rogers. That's what you get to him. And it's true. I mean, all of the, all these Great idea is, but you need to have money. Yeah, yeah. And Biden, no wonder they're friends. They just call each other out and they're like,

give me a good one. Give me a good one, Joan. He's like, have you used malarkey lately? I don't know. I don't think they have any new ones. They're all the same ones. I forget. For 10 years, it's the same lines.

Yeah. He called him out. He's like, Phil, tell me about that homestead again. Where was that, in fact? Could you see it when you were on the, you're trying to get in the, could you see it from there? I haven't heard that.

story in a very long time. I just talked to him this week too. He didn't bring it up. He did mention my beard was longer than it was the last time he saw me. Wow. At least he remembers me. I'm glad he remembered it. Yeah. He didn't see his memory is still intact. All right. You're not shaving until Artemis launches, right? No trims. No, I think I might have to. No trims. I was doing a TV thing next week. So I was saving the the, uh, the, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, beard trim at the barber till next week and then you called and I was like no trim for Anthony

and Jake I'm sorry guys it looks it looks very well well kept though I have to say it looks like you've brushed it maybe put a little oil in it I have a fantastic barber who sets me up for success so I'm just going to say that so luckily you probably won't be out waiting for Artemis one to launch in the middle of summer at this point so yeah maybe want to keep it so that you're a little warmer when it's like late fall or winter and we're out there. Should we do predictions? Like should we talk about predictions for a wet dress and for launch, given everything that's happened?

What do you think? I'm always game. Yeah. Friend is probably more scared. Okay. Okay. So let's do it like this then. Okay.

So first prediction, do they go back to the VAB, then go out, do a second wet dress attempt, go back to VAB again? and then launch, or do they, when they go back out for the second, what dress rehearsal, do they do the rehearsal and launch all in the same pad visit? That's the first prediction. What do we think? I think that. I think the second one.

They do, they take their time in the VAB and then head out there based on absolutely nothing. Is this prediction not that they actually pull it off, but that that was the intention? That's the intention. I'll leave that off the prediction. Okay. What happens? I don't know. That's based on absolutely nothing I know.

So that is just a gut thing. I like the second option the best. Because they did mention that as a possibility, right? They were thinking about whether they were not. Yeah, I think that was there was three options. And that was the final option that they had there. There's no way that's the one that happens. I don't think so either.

No. I'm with Anthony. So who gets credit if they meant to, but it ends up being the first option? Because I could see the positioning being the second option of we're going to go out and do it and launch. But having other things happen that has them coming back. Who gets credit? Yeah, because what gets tricky there is because they have that stupid flight termination constraint, right? Yeah, right. And like, we got to send Phillips-Loss article to everybody again to read about all the different launch constraints.

But once they're in the VAB, they have to, like, write a checkmark on a checklist about the flight test or flight termination system. and that checkmark expires in like 20 days or something. So like, yeah. Yeah. So once you get out there, if you do any amount of work at all, it just like eats your launch or weather. It's Florida. Yeah.

Anything blaze you at all. So I guess the question is, will they be like, oh, we've, we've re-evaluated the check mark and now it lasts for 40 days instead of 20. They could do that. I don't know. But, yeah. That's something good to dig into. I think you like to worry, Brandon.

Yeah. I think you might be right, but I'm going to still keep my prediction in case there's the long shot that I am right, and I'll have bragging rights over you guys. So that's what I'm doing. That's my plan. Next prediction then will be an NET for completion of the white dress rehearsal.

So that would be, I'll define completion as like gets to T zero. April 21st. It's going to be back there in a week. How long in the VAB? maybe like four to eight weeks. They said weeks. They said on the order of weeks.

Yeah. And granted, it took them a while to get it ready to roll back, which is a whole other part, right? Like it's a seven or ten day process to get it ready to roll back. Yeah. And the weeks kick in. So then they're going to have to get everyone's schedule organized for the second rollout to do another round of speeches with whatever Apollo astronaut they can find

that's in the area. There will be 19 press conferences in between. That's a good one. Over under, on how many press conferences before it launches? So you think, you think like maybe it rolls out like early July? I was thinking net July.

July, yeah, July. For the rollout, to go back out. For the wet dress completion, T-0. Redress completion. I don't know, man. One's T-0 for wet-dress. Vacations and. July 20th.

Graduating and... I got stuff to do in August. It'll be... My mental mindset is like this thing has a launch attempt in the fall, which requires wet dress to be in like July or August. That's wrong, Matt. All right. I can get behind that.

I can get behind that. Although I'm no person to say that. Like, when I first started covering space, it was 2014. The first. mission I covered was EFT1 and so that was at the end of it was December 2014 and I remember talking to my editor and I'm like we got to prepare for this man this this thing's launched in 2017 that's everyone's story I'm at least five years off I'm at least five years off here so and he still he still reminds me that I made that bold prediction whenever I come in with something so

I'm going to sit this one out I think I'll leave a team you make the prediction to launch. Yeah, that's the next one, launch, right? So do you say September, NET? Let's say they finish, let's say they finish July, and then they got to roll back, and then they got to checkmark the flight termination system. Late October.

Late October, yeah. Like we're watching the World War Series when this thing's going. Oh, man, okay. Do you know what that is, Jake? Are you aware of that? They do have Canadian baseball teams. Much like the Canadian basketball teams that we beat, and that's why I played the song of the being of the show that you did not know about.

Didn't the Raptors win something recently? I don't know. There was a big, huge thing. Yeah. Yes, in the COVID bubble. Actually, in the Reedy Creek improvement district. Yep. In the Reedy Creek Creek District.

Oh, man. It all comes back to Florida. It all comes back to Florida. Jake, when are we going drinking around the world at Epcot? That's really what the bet is here. Yeah, nobody knows, right. Will Eric Berger's prediction come true? His 2017.

20, 23 year. Yeah, that was, I got to find that. Somebody put that in Discord the other day. Very famous tweet that he got a lot of crap for, and is like so close to becoming true. Do you know what the one we're talking about, Brendan? Do you know about this? I think so.

Remind me, though. I'm going to pull it up. it was, was it that long ago, Jake? I think it was a while ago. Like, it was years ago. But he sat down with some unnamed source who was an industry insider. And that insider here was, yeah, an unbiased. Oh, my God, it was the night before EFT won.

No, no, no, no. Oh, no, 2014. Oh, no, that was 2014. It was the night before the three-year anniversary of EFT1. If I could read dates, correct. But still, like, that was, that was like, you know, so 2017, I think the nominal, the nominal launch date was supposed to be like, 20.

Was it to 19 at that point? 19. Yeah. And so, so what he was calling like a three-year delay on at that point. And it was like, he got, like, you just, you could probably just scroll the replies and see if we can find some of our favorite Twitter people in there. To tell us who this was when it launches? Like whenever it is that lifts off, that he announces it.

Yeah, yeah. Because by that time, it's probably not going to be an industry, unbiased industry source anymore. They're tired. I thought you meant they'll be biased. Or yeah, that. Like maybe it's Lori Garver or something. Who knows?

The unbiased part is the problem I have with that riddle. Because I'm like, who's not biased about this program? Who is neutral on this program? I don't understand how you could be neutral. I'm biased. Even if it launches today, he'd be closer to his prediction than my prediction. So I think Burger beats me at least. EFT1 was also my origin story because I was at that NASA social.

And I was like, okay, three years, that's a little bit away, but it's not that bad. Like, I get it. That's a solid amount of time. It's a new rocket. You were so young. You're so naive. I found somebody who tweeted a photo recently from that and if you look in the photo it's like all of people that you know from space Twitter today were at the NASA social and I'm like wow that

was a lot of that's cool yeah I got to find that actually I was like I was stuck out I was doing fox pop so I was interviewing people that went out to watch it so that was the first time I ever met Ozzy Osband at Spaceview Park. The local folks know who that guy is. Amazing. Man, I watched them launch at Space View Park. That's a great place to watch a launch.

It's a cool place to watch. There's bathrooms there, which is nice. Which is helpful. Yikes. All right. Well, that's our predictions. And I guess we have September, October is what we're looking at here. It would be nice.

Disney would be a little less busy than normal, if it exists. That's true. I don't know. Okay, I'm moving back to October for one particular reason, though, because you're going to get into hurricane season and that'll guarantee you will push hope or something. Yeah, that's a good point. That's a good point. Guarantee.

No one can tell me that SLS is like a really hurricane robust rocket. And it was like, yeah, we're totally fun. Like, no, it's going to be. They're going to wrap the VAB in like a plywood and duct tape just to make sure that that thing is safe. That's incredible. Yeah, they mentioned that all of this comments. Every time the wind blows, there's a bending moment on this vehicle. So we're watching that.

I get that you need to write that down somewhere. But like, is that a high? What's a level of concern on that? Is that a one to ten? Is that a ten? Is that a seven? Like, where are we at? Because it's not the least windy place in the world, especially on the beach.

Yeah. Yeah, no, you definitely don't want to be. We've had a few pretty close hits there. I want to say Hurricane Matthew a few years ago, kind of skirt in Brevard County and Michael, I think, another one. So what they do at Kennedy Space Center is pretty cool. They have like a whole rideout team that, you know, locks down the place. And it's pretty cool what they do. But yeah, hurricane season is a good point. Yeah.

That's October thing. Should we pour one out for Air Lequide in the last segment of the show? Erlequide, they have my, like I mentioned on the last show, my never-ending support as someone who says water ice. Erlequide is really just coming through as like a hero for me, not being alone in that two states of matter situation. So, okay, so if the listeners don't know what air liquid is, so this is the gaseous nitrogen provider that has been the subject of the, the last few days of SLS coverage. So this is the one that they threw under the bus completely in the press release. I don't know if you want to,

do you have that press release, I think it's brutal. Probably. I can paraphrase it. It's fine. But when they decided to roll back, they were like, that was the headline.

It was like, because they had, so there was three problems, right? So the valve on the ICPS broke. That's the upper stage. The, they were having a bunch of like temperature limit hits with the fueling.

And so they like, they couldn't get that much stuff in it. it. They had this hydrogen leak on the ground systems. And then this gaseous nitrogen supplier. So this is like, they use this nitrogen to like purge stuff, but it's supplied by this contractor. And so all this other stuff broke. But they did with this due to upgrades required the offsite supplier of gaseous nitrogen. They're going to take advantage. They're like, hey, no big deal. You know, you guys, contractor, you guys do your thing. We'll just like, we'll just roll back and just do a little extra work on the rocket. No big deal. You know, we normally would have skipped this, but since you are

in trouble and you need to fix your stuff, we're happy to just take advantage of that time and, you know, fix the rocket. It's totally fine. So this was a real classy thing. I thought, cherry on the communication strategy. They never named it, right? I remember in the press conference, and I can't remember who it was. This is the best part of the whole story. You know who it is. If you're driving in the gate, it's this, and I was like, oh yeah, I know exactly where that is. That's this massive, I just, I love how they're like, we can't tell you who it is. Here are their GPS coordinates, if you want to look it up on Google Maps. Like, how is that different than just saying the name? Picked up credentials, know exactly what it is. Because you pick up your badge.

The shady parking lot where you get the badges, you know, it feels like you're doing a drug deal, but you actually get a press badge out of the thing with a weird shack that definitely hasn't been touched in 70 years. Right there, there's a big sign. You have to look, north, but if you look north, there's a big tree. So if you want to walk out to the road and then look left, and there's the opening. Okay, thanks. That was a lot more words to say, Erlequide. But we're not going to name who it is.

We can't tell you who it is, but it starts with Erlaqqis. My favorite theory is that they didn't know how to pronounce it. So they just described where it was. Or they would pick some pronunciation and only 30% of people who shared that same pronunciation, whether it's Air Liquid or Erliquide or Erlequide or like, I. Eireliquida, you know, there's like a hundred way you can say it, depending on what language you were familiar with. So, yeah, that's probably why they avoided it, right?

Yeah. Oh, that's fantastic. Anyway, so shout out to the early key team. We know you're working hard. Sorry about that. But why? They didn't really say, like, why did this just get discovered? And then they're like, though, the work's done.

They just need to make it part of the system. I'm like, that doesn't sound like the work's done. It sounds like the, work is still open if it's not part of the system. Because they made it sound like there was an upgrade coming, but it wasn't necessary to do the wet dress. But I guess it wasn't if it worked the first time, because they had to do three wet dresses.

Yeah, maybe that's what it was. But basically once they got in the wet dress, like, okay, yeah, it does not meet requirements. So, yeah, it was a little bit messy. So another classy move in the Com strategy. for the SOS wet dresser. This does sound related to like, this is probably Phillips Sloss article

where this information was out there, but on launch, launch campaign, if they go to launch, and they need to scrub, it's like a two-day scrub, and then if they need to scrub, it's a three-day scrub because it's all about how much

propellant they need to replenish and all that. So maybe all of the systems were based on that schedule, and at the wet dress, it was like, oh, we'll try again tomorrow. Oh, we'll try again tomorrow. Oh, we'll try again tomorrow. And that wasn't, it wasn't ready for that?

It could be, yeah. Because I think they said, like, basically have, like, they have a big storage. And there's just like a, it's like a, because it's just pulling air and pulling the nitrogen out, right? So it's like got like a constant stream. Or is that the current thing? It's like, well, I think they, they supply NASA. Like there's like a constant input of a certain amount of nitrogen. And so if you need a lot of it, you got to let it like build up like over a few days.

Like you got to build, you know, charge the. battery, so to say, and then you can expand a lot quickly. So I think that's that you could be on to something there, right? I think that's right. Fill the tank was right there for you. And you went with fill the battery, charge the battery. You know, why

why say the real thing when an allegory? You got to fill the thing that's actually, if you go to the pad and just take a right, on the right, there's things there that we are filling. This episode is so off the rails. This is why. I'm never invited.

Yeah, yeah. Friendly, what is your favorite space story at the moment? Please bring us some joy. What is your favorite thing? Is it that we're getting a Uranus Explorer or whatever? Yeah, I think so. I think so. I mean, that's cool and all.

I'm super excited about crew four. I'm doing a profile on Jessica Watkins. And I'm talking to some folks that know her. And I'm really excited. This is like a really fun crew. Like all of the crews seem to be like getting like more and more comfortable with, you know, the media attention they get and interacting with the press. Like this crew specifically is, seems really awesome. So I'm super excited to see them go.

And I got approved to actually be there for the walkout. So this is the first time I'll actually see the astronauts walk out of another quarantine. Oh and C building. So I'm like all in for crew four. So that's super exciting. and yeah that's what I'm looking forward to because that should happen

on time right yeah up to the weather at this point it's up to whenever the splash down weather it should yeah although a great week for the axiom crew

up there because they're just like ah crap weather oh man all my duties are done I guess I'll just sit in the people too bad I'm super bum though because the original landing date was

was going to be like a sunrise kind of date. And the ground track for reentry is right over my house here. So I was going to go early in the morning and try and do a time lapse of the capsule coming in. Just to see if I could see anything. It's coming up. It's coming from south. Yeah, south towards Florida. So it'll go over the Gulf over Mexico.

So I was like so excited for it. I have my GoPro's like ready. And then they're like, yeah, we're moving to a few days later. I'll be in the middle of the afternoon. So I was wondering if they have to pay for the extra days. they don't. It's part of the deal. So if you are a million or billionaire and you want to go to the space, you want to book a flight, and then you want to fire up your weather machine and do it in hurricane season. Yeah, exactly. For sure.

Well, hang on though. So I saw your tweet about that, Brendan, because you asked like, do they have to pay for it? And the answer you tweeted was it is part of the agreement, which doesn't actually answer the question. They might. The agreement might say if it goes over, you pay this amount per day, not if it goes over, it's on us. Yeah. Yeah, I've got to follow up on that. But I assume that you wouldn't cut off their air. You know, well, you guys have outstaged your welcome.

So no more food and no more air deal with it. That's why you pre-agree. It's like there's an overstay tax. It's much per day. You sign here before we send you up that you're going to pay that, right? Someone was sleeping in the airlock. It would be. Yeah.

Do we know who it was? in the airlock? I want to find that out because I want to have them on the show, whoever it was, sleep in the airlock. I remember when, I can't remember if it was crew, crew one. It might have been crew one. Someone had to sleep in the airlock because they hadn't put all the beds up there yet. And the commander said that,

no, he slept in the airlock. I think he slept in Dragon. Oh, in the airlock. Someone slept in the airlock this time around. I would not want to be that person. Which is like the bottom bunk. That's the bottom bunk of the ISS. sleeping in the airlock.

Can you imagine it's kind of floating around and accidentally hitting the button? It's just, yeah, it's like, that's the ISS equivalent of, of sleeping on the torpedo, right? Yeah, totally. Yeah, yeah. Sleeping with the airlock, definitely, sleeping in the airlock is like the sleeping with the fishes of space. It's like a, it's a euphemism waiting to be happening. If someone said, hey, Brendan, we can, we're going to send you up there, but you have to sleep in the airlock, like, no questions. I'm going.

So. Oh, Martin. Yeah, not agreement. Oh, man. Okay. Brendan,

what are you working on these days? So we're got that, that story that's going to air ahead of the crew four launches I'm really excited about.

I've been next week talking about the Decatal. So, David Jones, Airlocker is great. Excellent work. Yeah,

and that's pretty much That's pretty much what I've been up to. I mean, what are you guys excited about? You guys? I feel like I was excited about being on your podcast recently. That was a pretty good episode. That was fun. That was fun.

And I do have to appreciate you flexing after someone canceled. And I told you the morning of, hey, Anthony, can you do all 24 minutes of the show? Said individual was within the Off-Nom universe, so it's totally fine. Not a big deal. I wasn't mad about it. I always go long. I give you plenty of content to cut out. I usually have to cut, I usually have to cut, cut you back.

He's not like me, right? I just give you like, I just like one take perfect. You just slot it in and it's all good to go, right? Jake, there's no editing with you. Yeah, you're, you're, yeah. I have to like, I have to get to fit my show into this, into this, you know, this on-air slot. So it gets, it gets difficult.

Yeah. Yeah. One day we will convince you to also quit your job. Okay. Yep. It's going to happen. He's like, why would you tell me to do that? I'm just saying we will eventually convince you to do that.

The Blazzing the Trail, the Independent Space Podcast. You will have to sit in the back of that press room with us. That's the unfortunate part. You don't get a seat. I've got standing where I am. I'm not sitting back there with you guys. I got a desk. We don't have tense.

We don't get physical space at the press sites. but you know I actually I get a desk at KAC when when Brendan goes to the bathroom it's true if it's within range I think we sat on someone's desk last time we were there for a little bit

we were supposed to have a desk and I don't know what happened there but like during COVID we couldn't be in there so I started working out of my car and I like that because nobody bothers me out there so you can have the WMFE desk that can be the independent podcast desk I love that

good take advantage of that Man. Anthony, you put out some episodes out recently. You've been a little productive lately. What's going on with you? I have. Yeah. Everything happened at the same time. What did I do recently? Oh, I did a show last week about Amazon. That was the thing. Oh, this past week I had Andrew Maximov on, who was the founder of Precious payload and a member of the Offnom community. So it was very cool to talk about. An anomaly. It was an anomaly. Yeah. I remember a couple years ago when he posted in the Discord, launching this new company. So it was to like get the full story. That's awesome.

Today, earlier today I talked to Brad Cheatham, who's the founder of advanced space, who is flying Capstone. So that'll be out, I think on Monday I'll put that show out. Really good conversation talking about flying around the moon. Really cool mission. I know you, Jake, you've obviously been curious about it because of the implications of larger planetary exploration, but it was like, because they pitched it to NASA. It wasn't like a thing that NASA was looking for.

Oh, interesting. Okay. They went and they were like, we got a good idea for this mission that also helps you out with Gateway. Would you like to fly it? And they were like, yes, we would. And so that was a very cool story to hear. That's great. I didn't know that about that. Yeah, it's really cool.

I can't wait to listen to that. How about you? Anything fresh? So, yeah, so I snuck out an episode right before the decade will drop and it just got swallowed up in the news. So I'll probably repost it again next week. But I had the deputy project scientist from New Horizons. on. So Kelsey Singer, we talked about Pluto. So this was like my first like deep science dive into a non-Mars place.

And so I felt pretty out of my depth. But I think we had a lot of fun. And there's man, cryovolcanoes. What a weird thing, man. These are like like I still, I'm like shocked that these are real and not make up from like five things like like just volcanoes that spew this like goopy water toothpaste stuff. It's wild. So you got to listen to it.

It was pretty fun. And then, yeah, my whole week has just been to Cato survey. I literally have this report open in three different windows on my computer so I can like cross-reference things as I'm reading through it. And it's it's 780 pages, man. It's not nothing. So that's, that'll come up on the next episode. I'm going to have Casey Dreyer come on and talk about that with me.

We're going to, we're strategizing on how to make it an episode that isn't three hours long. So that's what we're trying to figure out. I'm tackling mine in 28 minutes, Jake. Nice, nice. Okay. So it's going to be 12 minutes on Uranus and then five minutes on Enceladus and then all the other stuff sprinkled in. Caesar's back called Sponged crocodile.

I've got Paul Byrne coming on. So it should be quite fun talking about the burnus. The Burns. Yeah. And then Amy Williams from U.F. will be on to talk about some of the Mars things that we're in there. So it'll be fun show. So it's super exciting. Like this, this decadal is really cool. So this is first one I covered. It's awesome. It's super interesting, man. So I don't want to get too much away because we're going to talk

about it on different episodes. But it is definitely, like it's definitely, it's different than the last ones, like pretty significantly. And I think like way better because of it. So I'm, I'm pretty jazzed for it. Yeah, I'm excited to listen to that, that conversation. Casey's awesome. So that'll be a good show. Yeah, yeah, he's fun to talk with. And we can just go, me and him together, like, you got to cut us. So we just keep talking. So we'll figure it out.

We'll figure it out. But, yeah. Brendan, thanks for hanging out with us. This is awesome. Thanks for having me. This was fun. I'll see you guys in five years when I get invited again. I didn't know if you're talking about us or Artemis.

Jesus Christ. Both. Do you want the song, do you have the Sixers song in the way out? Are we doing it on the way out? Please. Let's do it. All right. See, everybody.

Bye, everyone.