Off The Vine with Kaitlyn Bristowe - Amanda Knox | Prison to Hulu: The Truth Behind Her Twisted Story!

Episode Date: August 21, 2025

#869. For years, Amanda Knox’s name was defined by headlines, speculation, and a story that wasn’t hers to tell. Now, with her new Hulu series The Twisted Tale of Amanda Knox, she’s finally reclaiming her narrative — and she joins Kaitlyn for one of the most powerful, emotional conversations ever on Off the Vine.Amanda sets the record straight about those infamous “strange behavior” moments, the coerced false confession, and what it was like to spend nearly her entire twenties under the shadow of prison and retrials. She opens up about survivor’s guilt, the toll on her family, and how becoming a mother reshaped the way she views it all.She also shares what it was like collaborating with Monica Lewinsky and Grace Van Patten, why the world was so quick to villainize her, and the memory of Meredith Kercher she wants the world to remember beyond the news coverage.Raw, unfiltered, and deeply human — this is Amanda Knox like you’ve never heard her before!If you’re LOVING this podcast, please follow and leave a rating and review below! PLUS, FOLLOW OUR PODCAST INSTAGRAM HERE!Thank you to our Sponsors! Check out these deals!Chewy: Chewy has everything you need to keep your pet happy and healthy. And right now you can save $20 on your first order and get free shipping by going to Chewy.com/vine.Apartments.com: The Place to find a place!Better Help: Off The Vine listeners get 10% off their first month at BetterHelp.com/VINE.Lady World: Come Join me for a fun weekend! Get your tickets now at LadyWorld.COEPISODE HIGHLIGHTS: (8:20) – Survivor’s guilt: Amanda opens up about carrying the weight of being the one who lived.(18:13) – Family impact: Why Amanda believes her mom suffered more than she did.(31:59) – Behind the series: Working with Monica Lewinsky and Grace Van Patten on her new Hulu show.(52:37) – Strange behavior: Amanda sets the record straight on the infamous media narrative.(1:00:13) – Remembering Meredith: Amanda honors her roommate’s life and the traits she wants the world to remember.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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Hey, everybody. Welcome to Off the Vine. I'm your host, Caitlin Bristow. and today I have someone on whose name you've definitely heard before, probably through headlines. Probably a lot of tabloids and endless speculation that has followed her for so many years. Amanda Knox spent nearly four years in an Italian prison after being wrongfully convicted of her roommate Meredith Kircher's murder. So after a long, painful and very public legal battle, she was exonerated, but the story never really left her. So now for the first time, Amanda is helping tell her own story as an executive producer for the new Hulu series,

is the twisted tale of Amanda Knox. I am totally honored today that she is here, and she shares not only what she went through in her life, but also what it took to make this series happen and the parts of her journey that we haven't seen or heard as much of in the past. So let's welcome Amanda Knox. So I knew, obviously, your story, everything.

And then I went back and I was like, I wonder when that Netflix show came out because I remember I watched it. I didn't realize it was 2016 that that came out. I was talking with a friend from Hulu and I was like, I'm pretty sure it came out in like 2020 because you know how time is just so weird the last five years. And she was like, I don't know. So we looked it up.

I was like, 2016 is when that happened. Now that's what, nine years ago. Yeah. Which is crazy because so much happens in one year, let alone nine. Absolutely. But how many years was everything before that Netflix documentary came out? Right. So this whole ordeal started in 2007.

Wow. So 18 years ago. And here we are still. Here we are still. And even just thinking about the difference between 2016 and now. Yeah. Like I had very, like 2016 was just one year after I was definitively exonerated. But like I was still processing a million billion traumatic things.

Yes. And feeling really alienated from the rest of the world. And like I was a very timid and. you know scared to be in public kind of person i hid quite a lot and then brings you into a darker place because you're isolating yourself exactly it's a prison of your own making and you know i this was before i ever it was a time of my life when i felt like no matter what i said or what i did i was always being viewed in the worst possible light and so i felt helpless like it was this learned helplessness yeah because you know so many doors literal doors

slam in your face and you can't open them, like you start to feel like there's just nowhere forward and nowhere for you to be. Yeah, I said so many times, so I rewatched it this morning. Cool. And I said so many times to my makeup artist while she was doing my makeup. I'm like, I want to jump through the screen and hug her. I just, and I said, you know, it's really sad to me. And I, you can please tell me if I'm wrong on this. But you had like such a, like you said, quirky sparkle. I called it a quirky Sparkle. And I'm like, I remember not that this story is similar in any way, it's just an example, but Megan Fox, I think was bullied so long and she was always just so sexualized and all this. She always says she lost her sparkle. And then I'm like, and she said, you know, I hate when people get just destroyed online or for anything. I hope they don't lose their sparkle. You definitely had that quirky sparkle. Do you feel like you lost it? Oh, I definitely lost it for a long time. Do you have it back? I think so. Absolutely. It probably never could be the same, but yeah, it's a different spark. now, right? Like, it's, it's not as just, you know, bright and optimistic. Like, I was, I was almost a Disney princess in the sparkled apartment. Like, I would, you know, wake up and

birds would be chirping and, like, almost landing on my finger. Like, that was my life before. Yeah, exactly. Like, everything is good. Nothing bad has ever happened to me. And then a witch gives me a poisoned apple and life is over, you know. That is actually such a fear of mine is traveling to another country and something happening where I have zero control and I can't speak the language and somehow end up in jail like there's movies about it and I'm like wow that that is my biggest fear it was not my biggest fear because I had no idea yeah you were not on my radar yeah my brain is always like worst case scenario but you were in this positive well what were you 20 I was 20 so yeah I guess when I was 20 I didn't have a care in the world I mean my worst case scenario at the time was

someone's going to steal my passport right or like I'm going to get sick or something like that Not that your roommate's going to get murdered and then you're going to be No, charged for it. That is, this whole thing blows my mind so much. Like, we've seen your story be told and told over again for 15 years. And I just feel like now you get to have creative control as an executive producer, which is so good because you get to actually have your own voice. I was thinking about this with the Netflix show because that was nine years ago.

You had already been portrayed in the media as a certain way in Italy and all over the world. Did you feel like Netflix did a good job at portraying the truth and who you were? Yeah, I think the filmmakers did a really good thing. They did a number of really good things that I hadn't seen before in the media coverage of the case. And, you know, it was a journalistic take, obviously. It's a documentary, which is a very different thing than, say, a dramatization that we have going on today. Yes. The Twisted Tale of Mananax is a dramatization.

Yeah. There's an actress playing me. Yeah. The documentary that the Netflix filmmakers made was, really smart because it was a commentary on the media. It was a, it was a lens on me that ended up reflecting back at the media itself. And I thought that's why, I mean, there are many reasons why it was a very successful documentary. One, it was hitting at the right time. Like, this is when, you know, elevated true crime was really exploding. It was one of those first documentaries that

kick started the, you know, true crime documentary revolution. And I think they did a really a job at giving every single person who was interviewed the opportunity to really represent themselves and to represent what they truly believed. And I really appreciated them because when they approached me and asked me questions, it wasn't just this litany of the same kinds of questions that I was always getting, which was, what happened? Where were you? What were you thinking? Right. Like those kind of like almost interrogation questions where they treat you and your life like a plot point for their own, you know, moral narrative. Yep.

And instead they like really just sat with me and let me reflect. What did I really think about all this stuff that had happened now that I was, you know, out of prison, but still very much processing the experience. And in fact, they interviewed me while I was still on trial. Like the whole thing wasn't over for me. Yeah, because at the end of the documentary, they say like you, they, they, they don't. decided they're going to charge you again. Right. Exactly. So, yeah, in the meantime between me getting out of prison and me being definitively exonerated in 2015, like they were making the documentary in that in-between space when I was still on trial again. Like in Italy, they can retry you even after

you've been acquitted until the, you know, the highest court, their version of the Supreme Court says, gives a definitive, you know, acquittal or conviction. And so I was on trial for eight years. I spent my entire 20s just on trial with this axe over my head, either in prison or with the threat of prison. You're supposed to in your 20s just be like traveling and like living your silly little 20 life, like making mistakes and making out with Italian men and like doing what you were wanting to do. And this has been those eight years of your 20s. Like how do you, you can't get it back. No, you don't. You don't get it back. And you know, there was there was a lot that was lost in Italy. Like two young women went to go study abroad in Perugia, Italy, and only one survived

to tell the tale. Yeah. And it's, and so like grappling with that, like grappling with a weird sense of survivor's guilt, grappling with a world that's sort of telling me that I'm not a true victim because I wasn't murdered. Like a whole world that was telling me to just shut up and disappear and here I am like, or blaming me for my own wrongful conviction. Yeah. The, It was a lot. It was a lot to deal with as a young person who had, again, like, zero experience with trauma. Right. And so, and I think part of the other issue was I didn't realize how ultimately universal my trauma was. Like, I had felt so sort of isolated and singled out as like, now you, human, do not belong to the rest of us. You are exiled.

Yeah. There's, you know, no one can relate to you. No one understands you. And I felt, I felt that. I thought that was true. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Until I started meeting other wrongly convicted people, which was good.

Yeah, that's. But even beyond the other wrongly convicted people that I met, I'll never forget the first time that I was recognized by someone who I, I didn't make friends when I first got out of prison. But I did go back to school because I was trying to get back to a sense of normal scene. So that was the first thing that came to mind would just go back to school. That's the thing I know. And I go back to school and I'm older than a lot of my classmates now. And I'm very much sort of like keeping my head down, just showing up to class and then getting out of there. But I do make friends with a girl in my poetry class.

And we start hanging out outside of class because we're just vibing each other's poetry. It's such a nerdy thing to say. I love it. We were just, like, bibing each other's poetry. And we would hang out on Saturdays to, like, just talk poetry and, like, share stuff with each other. And one day she showed up at the coffee shop and she was like, oh, my God, you're Amanda Knox. And I was just like, oh, no, what Google Rabbit Hole have you gone down? What do you think of me?

And, like, my face must have turned white because she immediately was like, no, no, no. Like, don't misunderstand. And she was like, I was raped when I was a teenager. I was gang raped. And everything that you are sort of talking about in your poetry, like the helplessness, the feeling of being overwhelmed and not knowing how to like make sense of this like horrible thing that just happened to you, like all of that resonates with me. Wow.

And that was like the first inkling that I had that this experience that I had sure was like very uncommon in a lot of ways. but was ultimately deeply universal because we all, you know, especially in our 20s, like again, are navigating the world doing the best we can and sometimes we encounter people who hurt us.

And like, how do we then approach our lives not feeling like we are diminished or are merely victims, right? How do we acknowledge these facts and help them propel us forward? And that's like Ben, my whole adult life is trying to figure that out. Are you still friends with this person?

Yeah, yeah. Oh, my God. I feel like that probably gave you the perfect amount of hope that you needed. Also, along with, like, so much hurt and sadness for her and her story. Yeah. And like a tragically beautiful connection. Yeah. And that's a similar thing that I'm hoping this series does.

It's like when people finally see it from my own eyes, it's going to be less of a voyeuristic. kind of experience and more of a deeply intimate and personal one. Like I'm, the way that we have crafted this story was intended. Like me and K.J. Steinberg, the creator and showrunner, like the idea was to put people in, literally in my shoes. So they felt viscerally what was going on with me in a way that they never have before. Wow. Yeah. I mean, it's brilliant, but that must have been hard to relive again and again. And I'm like at this point, are you numb? Are you, like, how do you feel recreating it?

You know, that's an interesting question because this isn't the first time that I've told my story, right? Like, I do a lot of ever, you know, after the Netflix documentary came out, it was the first time people started reaching out to me and wanting to know what my perspective was. Like that was the biggest thing that the Netflix documentary did was it gave people the idea. that I might have some kind of valuable perspective to share. And I started being invited to speak about controversy and about judgment to various groups of people. And so I've shared my story in that way. And one of the things that's really crucial for telling my story is I have to go where

it hurts. Like if I'm going to convey honestly to an audience what this experience was like, I have to go where it hurts. and where it haunts me. And the same process is true in the making of a show. Mm-hmm. The difference is, is that I can share, like, it's not, the pressure isn't all on me to, like, get it right.

Yeah. Now I have, like, a village of people who really care about getting it right. And I think that that was something that I didn't realize even going into this process was, like, realizing that it wasn't just me anymore, right? Like, it was Grace Van Patton. It was K.J. Steinberg. It was Monica Lewinsky, who's executive producing the show. It was Warren Littlefield, our lead producer.

It was all, you know, it was the gaffers and the, you know, the cameramen and the Italian actors who were incredible, who were coming. And all of them caring so much about getting it right. Like, I was not really prepared for the feeling of, like, relief and gratitude, I felt for this village that had come around me to help me. Because all you've ever needed and all you've ever deserved is a community of people to rally behind you and be there for you and you now have it after however many years. And that's like, that's so beautiful.

And I can't imagine how therapeutic that must feel just because as you know and went through, so many people were against you or trying to twist a story or, you know, like media does its media thing and or and to this day for the right you're like sure i'm like can you probably get scared to even do podcasts to like be like what's the headline what's the like story going to be i would be so jaded so to feel like you have almost this family just like around you helping create your your truth your story and have people care that much i'm like what a full circle like moment it is and the timing like forever but But, like, you still need this.

And like you said, you probably needed it more than you even realized. In fact, that is true. Yeah. And again, because it's just like I've been holding that torch, you know, fighting, you know, to stand up for myself for so long. And it's just such a relief to know that there are other people who are standing up for me in such a profound way. And, like, I don't know if even they knew ahead of time, like, how big of a deal it was. would be to, like, step in my shoes. Yeah.

Yeah, what were those conversations like with Grace Van Patten? I mean, Grace is so professional. Yeah. Like, she, I mean, she's been in the industry for years already. So, like, she's very grounded in her craft, which is so cool. Like, just seeing her come alive as a character, like, I'll never get the first time. It wasn't even on set. It was, they were doing, like, trying on costumes thing that they did where, like, they put

every character in costume and just had them sort of walk on, you know, into a room sort of in character. And like the first time I, she's, you know, just wearing jeans and a Beatles t-shirt, you know, whatever, just like comes into the room with a little cha-cha to her step. And like, I was just like, oh, my God, I got chills. Yeah. Just like, oh, my God, there she, there I am. Like, there she is. And so, like, it was very bizarre for me to, like, have this doppelganger version of me just, like, right there before my eyes. And it was. It was. all just like these conversations where she had really like intelligent questions that about like the nuance of character like how do you communicate nonverbally how like what do you you know when

people like accuse you of being quirky like what does that mean and I'm like well do you know the the kids in drama club at school and she's like I was one of those kids you know like perfect I think that she really related to me and so it was very easy for her to like get into my character How did you find her for that? I mean, again, like, I'm part of a huge team. Yeah, yeah. So Carmen Cuba is the casting person, like, genius, casting genius, is that what we call it? What did we do?

And she brought all of these amazing people together. I mean, Sharon Horgan plays my mom, which is just, like, incredible. And, like, for especially this, like, comedic actor to be in this super dramatic role and, like, taking on all of that. Like, I often say that what my mom went through was worse than what I went through. And so, like, people should keep their eyes on the character. You probably feel that even more. Oh, 100%. Like the second I gave birth to my daughter, I was like, oh, my God.

Yeah, it just cracks a new, like, cracks your heart open to a place you didn't think was possible and then gives you all the empathy and compassion in the world for your own mother. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, like, again, that helplessness that you and. end up being in like my mom would have traded places with me in an instant but she couldn't and so she just had to sit there and watch me suffer yeah for years and watch me like that sparkle disintegrate in front of her eyes and it's like that's my daughter's sparkle how dare you

totally and and having having to watch your own daughter also questioned who she like you were questioning yourself at moments you were questioning like did I do that did I forget my fault? Like what is this my fault? And people are probably like confused by that. But when you're not sleeping, you're under that much pressure, you're trying to grieve something. You're in a world and you're also 20 freaking years old and you're being slapped in the back of a head by cops saying, fuck you and calling you awful names. Yeah. Your brain probably goes, what do you want me to say? I'll say it. Yeah. Like it's even in the world of reality television, you get to a point of like pressure where you're like, what do you want me to say? I'll just. to say, I need to go to bed. I can't imagine. Yeah, you know, that's, I love that you bring that up because a lot of people feel like they just don't understand, like, the whole interrogation, coerced confession thing. They think, oh, I'm an innocent, if I'm innocent, I would never say anything, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But it's like, how many times are we gaslit every single day? Every day? How many times do we say things that we don't mean just because we're exhausted or

whatever we don't like we're in the middle of some kind of hostile interaction and we just need to get out of it like this is a very universal experience and yet there's like this wall that people just don't want to believe that it's humanly possible to be pushed to be broken to the interrogated yes literally to the point of like hallucination and losing your mind yeah I would do the same I really would I've I've been in much less severe situations and And I've questioned my own brain. Oh, absolutely. I mean, I think anyone who's not a, like, a complete narcissist

is going to question themselves when, especially when, like, authority figures that you trust are telling you that reality isn't what you think it is. Why do you think that system over there was so dead set on getting you? Well, I mean, one of the things that we explore in the show, is the bias that was really from the very beginning of this case. And by bias, I don't mean it in a negative connotation necessarily. Like, we all have bias. It's just that is our context, right? We have a history.

We have ideologies. We have belief systems that are all just baked into us. And occasionally, those come into conflict with the history and context and ideologies of another human being that we encounter and suddenly there's a little perfect storm. Well, this story is about a huge perfect storm of people with all the best intentions, but with completely different contexts, encountering each other and colliding in a dramatic situation in a pressure cooker and what are the consequences. One thing that KJ. Steinberg, our creator and showrunner, like her design for the whole series, especially when

talking about the, you know, the wrongful conviction part, the, you know, the investigation part, she called it the anatomy of bias. And so what does that mean? She's breaking down how one man who has, you know, a history of looking into serial killer cases and all of that comes into contact with this crime that was, you know, in many ways baffling to this small community, right? Like, murder was not something that was common in Prussia, Italy. Like, the police we're typically dealing with people, you know, petty theft and, like, petty drug dealing because it's a college town, you know, like, that's the kind of thing that they're used to. They're not used to a beautiful young girl who's a, you know, A-plus student has done everything

right, being murdered in her own bedroom. Right. Right. Like, it was, it was threatening to the community. And I think at first, baffling because, again, it's not like some girls were out partying and then someone gets taken advantage of and, you know, pulled into an alley. Like, Like, no, she was in her own bedroom. Right. Someone broke into our house and committed this crime. It was very immediately, you know, again, threatening to the community and confusing. And my prosecutor, who again is somewhat and in Italy prosecutors lead investigations.

They have a much more impactful role than they do even here in the United States. So he was the one who really crafted this, how the investigation would go down and from the ground up was constructing this. constructing this narrative of what he believed, what he truly believed happened. And he took one look at our house and decided that the break-in was not real. Right. And from that interpretation, because again, like, you know, to this day, I have conversations with him. And he's really sort of, he struggles to distinguish between what is a fact and what is an interpretation. So, like, a fact is there's a broken window. The fact is, there's my roommate's body, right?

These are facts. He then would look at these facts and come up with a idea in his mind about what they meant. So the break in is staged. That is not a fact. That is an interpretation. That is his theory. But his theory became a fact in his mind. It was the premise upon which all of his logical conclusions derived.

And that fact suggested that someone who lived in the house had stated. aged a break-in in order to make it appear like a stranger had committed this crime instead of someone who lived in the actual house. And there were not that many of us who lived in the actual house. And I was the one American girl. I was the stranger. I was the one who didn't speak Italian. I was the one who was closest to Meredith's age and, you know, and lifestyle, right? Like, she was just one year older than me. She was the other exchange student. Everyone else who lived in the house was Italian. Has anyone ever apologized to you?

People have, you know, over the years, it's interesting the people who do apologize to me. A lot of people, especially after seeing the Netflix documentary, reached out to me and like really truly distraught, like absolutely distraught that they had believed horrible things about me and not just believed horrible things about me, but like had enjoyed the experience of believing bad things about me, the Schadenfreude of it all. And like, I have so much sympathy for people because that is what the media spoon fed them. Yes. Wait, I want to go back. Schadenfreude. Yeah. That's when people find joy and other people suffering, right? Exactly. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so there was this. And that happens a lot in this world.

Oh, 100%. And in fact, like, there are certain, I mean, again, the media recognized the algorithms recognize that the one, you know, feeling that that causes people to engage with media, which is what they want, is outrage. It's not joy. Headlines are never pleasant, like, exciting things that, like, people might or might not click on their, it's their outrage. Outrage and chaotic and all these things to get people, like, that is such a thing in so many aspects of media. Yep. And this is something, and again, like, it's something we explore the series is like how are we allowing a feedback loop to tell us these to like feed us even completely made up information merely for the fact of getting us to be stimulated and engaged

with it and by stimulated and engaged we mean outrage it's scary it's scary because like how do you trust anything in the media and the media runs our whole world and the media primarily is an institution that when it is with integrity it seeks to give people the information that they should know so that they can live a life that is informed and ethical like that's that's the job of the media it's to to provide it's to democratize information for the rest of us it's to act as a filter yeah and to provide us things that we that's why we wanted it gives us information that we want to know yeah but again that feedback loop what do we want to know do we want to know the truth right or do we want to know a story

that is outrageous. Right. God, that's so true. It just gave me a little bit of goosebumps in a bad way. Well, but, you know, and here we are, you know, media professionals now.

Like, we know how powerful the media is. Yeah. We know what the power of sharing stories is. Yeah. We try to be ethical. Because there is a beautiful side of it. Yeah. Oh, 100%.

Like, again, it doesn't, there's nothing good or bad necessarily. It's just what, what are we doing? And why are we doing it? And that's something that we, you know, I take very seriously as a media professional because I've been on the other side of it. I know what it's like to be treated like, you know, a caricature, an object, you know, a piece of meat that people are just peddling. So something that like everyone involved in this project was really, really careful about was like not wanting to tell a black and white narrative, not wanting to tell the same kind of story that has been told for this particular case.

that we've seen time and time again. We've seen very, very black and white narratives about this case. How do we tell a story that grounds us in everyone's humanity? How do we understand context? God, the world needs that right now, too. I think it does. Yeah. I think it does because we are in a world where people,

we are grappling with misinformation and alternate realities constantly. Like, you can't have a conversation with people because it's no longer even about a debate about how to interpret facts, it's even trying to figure out what facts even exist and we agree on our facts. This is the world we live in today. And like my case was that problem 20 years ago. Right. And there is a way forward.

It does involve some counterintuitive work, though. It involves building bridges where you wouldn't otherwise build a bridge because the first way to try to get someone to appreciate a fact is not by presenting them a fact. It is by acknowledging them as a person. Wow. You're so well-spoken. I'm just like sitting here like I can listen to you forever because and you're so like everything you're saying. I'm just like, yes.

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join the millions of happy renters find your next home at apartments.com the place to find a place I want to talk about Monica Lewinsky, but obviously our girl. Oh, I'm obsessed. Have you interviewed her yet? I would do anything to interview her. Okay, I'll text her later. Please. Oh, I just, I respect her so much.

And she's obviously had her life defined by media headlines. Oh, G. Oh, G. Yeah. So how did you two get connected and create this? Great question. So I initially met Monica in that period of my life when I was still feeling very diminished and I couldn't speak out or anything like that. In fact, the first ever time that I gave a public talk, I agreed to do it because Monica was also going to be there.

And I really wanted to meet her. And I'm come out of prison and I'm like, oh my God, there's no path forward for me. Everyone blames me for the bad thing that happened to me. They just want me to shut up and disappear. here like I'm not allowed, you know, I just felt like I had to hide. And then she did her TED talk. And then she did her Vanity Fair articles. And I was just like awakened in me this idea that maybe there's a path forward for me.

Yeah. So then when, you know, years go by and I have this opportunity to give a talk, I asked to meet her. And she invited me after her hotel room and she gave me tea. And she really gave me like this pep talk, like this really big sister pep talk. about like taking care of myself, but also remembering that my voice matters. Yeah. And really instilling in that or in me that belief. And years go by, we stay in contact.

But I had just given birth to my daughter, Eureka. And a New York Times profile came out about me and she read it and reached immediately out and said, hey, you know, I just did this thing, you know, with impeachment. Like, I'm out there telling my story and I would really like to help you. tell yours. And I was like, girl, you had me yet. Hello. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. That's so cool. I'm like, what a, what a bond. What a strong friendship you must have and now working together. Yeah. I mean, it's been so incredible working with her because again, like she's just been through it ahead of me. Yeah. So she's trying to like forge this path to literally like hacking through the weeds. Yeah. To like make the way a little bit easier for the next person. And, you know, one of my goals in this project was

also to do the same. Like, yeah. This is a new thing that Hollywood is doing. That's giving voice and creative, you know, not creative control, but certainly like creative input. You know, like actual, you know, respect for the people who are the source. Yeah. And that's never been done before. And I feel like in a way, Monica and I are the guinea pigs to like, you know, prove, is this a thing that actually leads to better results? And we believe that is true. Yes. So, of course, we're, like, working our asses off to, like, create something smart and thoughtful and beautiful and better than it could have been without us. Yeah. So that it's easier for the next person who comes along. I love that. I mean, you, you could do that in so many different

worlds. Like, being from the bachelor, bachelorette world, like I, you know, there's like small T trauma and big T trauma. Sure. I always consider, like, going through reality TV. like I was a bit traumatized because I felt like a little bit manipulated. No doubt. Yeah. And so now I have like just this whole feeling anytime they announce a new Bachelorette. I'm just like I am here for you no matter what. Like I want you to talk to me.

I want you to call me if you need anything. We can talk through anything. Like I just feel this wanted responsibility to be there for them on obviously a much different scale than yours. But just like I understand that I. of like how hard do you want to work to because you see the benefit of how it changed your life when somebody is believes in you and when somebody is there hacking away to create the path for you you see the impact that it has on you and then you feel like it's like you want to but it's also your duty to like you know do that for somebody else and I you're obviously doing that yeah

you're doing that have you ever interviewed christine marie cadis no she's a person who also has been through, you know, a terrible big tea kind of trauma. But, like, she, which involved horrible, horrible things, including, you know, it was like cult related, bad stuff, right, like that. And she survived it. Yeah. But then she went on, she did like a discovery channel, I don't know, like it was some kind of show they interviewed her about it.

And she said the trauma from telling her story. to that outlet and the way that they represented it was more traumatic than actually going through the thing itself. And she then went on to get a PhD in studying media trauma and especially talking with reality show contestants, people who are on these reality shows, who enter into it thinking, oh, here's an opportunity for me to like put myself out there

and like, you know, be a personality. and just, you know, it's an industry where you really have to, like, elevate yourself. Here's an opportunity to elevate myself. And it might be fun, you know, it's fun. But then it becomes deeply manipulated. You're gaslit. You're, you know, coerced into doing things you wouldn't otherwise do. And then, of course, also the way that they film a thing, they completely cut it apart and paste it back together and make you appear to be outrageous for the sake of audience engagement.

And the audience loves that. And the audience loves that, but then what are you left with? Right. Like you're not the one who's in control of your own story. And suddenly you're defined in a big way that you were not prepared for. And she talks about what is called narrative foreclosure, which is the feeling that you are not the protagonist of your own life anymore. You're just a pawn of someone else's. And like the deep feeling of like dread and helplessness that comes from that.

Wow. And so again, it's these universal feelings that we have. You're right. And obviously there are certain situations that bring that out more. But even a person who's just like on the treadmill of life, like doing everything right, they become a doctor or an accountant or whatever will reach a point where they go, wait a second. Did I make any of these choices? Right. Yes.

Or am I just here and do I want to be here and who am I and what am I doing? I think like people see the blueprint of life. I just do this. I go here. I get this. I go to the next step. And then you look back and you go, did I do that for me? Or who was I doing that for? Right. And then and that's in the best case scenario. When you do everything right and you get the things that you deserve. Yeah. But then there are those of us who go about life and do everything right. And we still don't get what we deserve. Like we go to college to get a degree so we can get a good job. I mean, you're seeing that now with a lot of like computer science people who can't get jobs because AI is taking them. And they're like, wait a second. I was promised. a healthy and happy career life and that's disappeared. And that's in itself a kind of narrative foreclosure. That's itself as a kind of trauma because you're going, wait, life is not what I expected it to be. Yeah. And how do you then approach that reality? I think a lot of people get stuck in my life should have been this. Yeah. Instead of my life is this. And that's the distinction. Did you, what kind of mentality did you have while you were in prison for those four years? Like,

were you able to be like have this outlook or were you a complete different person? Because I would have crumbled. I would have lost it. I don't think I I don't think I would have made it. Like I really don't. And I'm sure you had times of thinking like that. But then do you, how do you come out of that? Like what were those four years like? Yeah. There was there was a shift that happened. It wasn't all the same, right? Like there was before I was convicted and then there was after. So the first. first two years of my imprisonment, I was just waiting for a verdict. Was that the longest two years of your whole life? It was, you know what? The first year was really long. Yeah. And then this weird thing happens with time in prison where like every single day is the longest day of your life. Yeah. But then all of a sudden a month is gone. And you're like, where did this month of my life go? Interesting. Because every day is so monotonous and routine and you don't, there's not a lot

you can do. Yeah. So it's just like it becomes this weird blur. Yeah. Anyway, so the first two years of my imprisonment, my like innate optimism that like Disney Princess outlook, um, assisted a little bit by, um, some soccer training experience helped me through. So like, you know, I've, I've had to, the toughest things that I dealt with as a kid was

soccer training. Yeah. Like I was, I was, I was, you know, it wasn't just like rec soccer. Yeah. Like I was in a, oh, okay. I was in a premier team, which meant that I had to work my butt off and sometimes it hurt. And so I knew just sort of innately in a bodily way that like pain didn't necessarily mean a bad thing, right? Like if you pushed through pain, you might arrive at some kind of, you know, valuable thing on the other side of it.

Like I had that sort of innately deep down. So in prison for the first two years, I thought this was just a. big misunderstanding and I felt like my job was simply to wait yeah and and let the adults do the right thing yeah like because I again I was a kid and I just was like I'm no one's listening to me I'm helpless I'm trying but no one's listening to me it's clearly out of my control I cannot open this door so I'm just going to hang in there until the adults do the right thing wow and that was a long time to hang in there but I had this light at the end of the tunnel, right?

Like, I'm on trial. There's going to be a verdict. And, like, knowing deep down you didn't do it. Yeah, I didn't do it. Yeah. So, like, how could they possibly find me guilty? But then they found me guilty. Yeah. And sentenced me to 26 years in prison, which is longer than I've ever been

alive. Right. So that then catapulted me into a new mentality. Yeah. Which was the first inklings of this more, you know, know, I feel like I've encapsulated a little bit better what it, like, I know the mentality better now. But at the time, it was this like, it was truly a shift in, oh, I'm not just waiting for the life that I should be living. This is my life. Yeah. Like, this is it. This is all I've got.

It gives me anxiety just to even think about. But then the counterpart to that. So yes, it involved a lot of grieving, right? Like all of these things that I thought that I would have in my life, like a career and a family, gone. Yeah. Okay, this is my life. What can I do with it? Because the one thing that I wasn't doing up to that point was trying to like do something with my life. I was just waiting to get it back. I was really just like reading books and like in my brain thinking I'm going to go back to college any second now. But that wasn't the case. So then I like started looking around me for the first time and going, what can I do that will make my life worth living? And I did go to Italy because I had dreamed about becoming a translator and I had become

fluent in Italian in prison. And there were a lot of people in my prison who either could not speak Italian or even if they could speak Italian, could not read or write. And suddenly I had a job. A purpose. A purpose and a hustle, as we call it. Yeah. You're just doing the grind in there. Yeah, I'm just grinding away. But like, I had a reason to be.

And it didn't make it happy. I was not happy. Yeah, no. I was sad every single day. But I had a purpose, which made it bearable. And then I got out thinking, yay, now I get to go back to the life that I should have. But I quickly realized that that life didn't exist. This was still my life.

Yeah. I'm still the girl accused of murder. Yeah. I'm still on trial. And even if I'm not on, even technically on trial in a court of law, I'm still on trial in the court of public opinion because everyone has an opinion. Well, and it was worldwide. Yeah. So there's like nowhere I can go.

Oh, gosh. Yeah. And social media was a thing, too. Yeah. And I feel like in a weird way, because I never had a choice. I never had the illusion of having a choice, right? I feel like one of the things that my experiences, because it was so extreme,

it allowed me to see through the idea that, like, I might be able to, like, go through life as if this hadn't happened, right? I think sometimes we trick ourselves about that. We think, oh, you know, I just need to move on and pretend this didn't happen and I'll be able to, like, be happy again. It's like, no, that's not how trauma works.

Sadly not how trauma works. No, it stays in you. It's in your body and you have to deal with it. And like from day one, I was like, well, I guess I have to deal with this because the world is not, you know, the world is not going to let me move on. So how do I do it? It literally is trapped in your body. And the way you're, I'm assuming how you do it is what you're doing now. Yeah.

And it's different for everyone. Like not everyone has the same, you know, outlet. But like for me, especially because my story and my. identity was stolen from me. It's been very therapeutic to engage directly with that. For me, I'm the kind of person who likes to go towards the thing, like go directly at the thing that hurts me. So for me, that looked like going directly back at the media and saying, this is who I am, and going directly back to my prosecutor and saying, this is who I am. And this is reality. You don't get to tell me what reality is anymore. This is it. Yeah, I just want to snap.

Yes. I love that. I think that's, I mean, you're smart and you're strong and you've been through so much. And it is your time to have your story and tell it the way that you want to and the way it actually was. Yeah. And I think you're in such a good place where like, I think the world does see through some media bullshit now. And, you know, we can see that we've been lied to. We can see that we've been lied to. Yeah. So it's, it is the perfect timing for you. I mean, I wish it would have happened 20 years ago and all the stuff. But you know what? Like, you can't take it back. No, you can't. And so you just do what good you can do from it. And I feel like now having a husband and two children, the past has probably helped shape your relationship with your husband and your children now.

Yeah. What do you think those conversations will be like with your children? Well, the fun part about that is they've already started happening. Oh, yeah? I mean, well, and because this show has sort of like kickstarted it. Yeah. Like, I was anticipating my daughter. asking me about it when she would be like six or seven but we started making this show well

we really started making this show like shortly after she was born so like but when we really started like actually produce you know filming like we're on set she's three years old and and and I'm getting footage back to overlook and you know see and all of that and sometimes she'll want to sit on my lap and see what I'm doing and she's like oh what's this yeah and I go oh, that's, you know, someone pretending to be Mommy. And she's like, oh, what's, what's she, what's the story? Like, she's so interested in stories. Yeah.

And so she asks me the story of when Mommy went to Italy. And I have to go, okay, how, being the person who believes in, like, transparency, which age appropriate transparency, I'm like, okay, how do I tell this story in a way that she will understand it and appreciate it? And what she understands right now is a fairy tale. Yeah. And so I tell it to her like a fairy tale. And in a way, that telling has also helped in the telling of this story because it's not just a courtroom drama.

Like K.J. Steinberg, the creator, she broke the mold on true crime and biopic. Like, this is a coming-of-age fairy tale. Yeah. And it doesn't, it's not limited to the courtroom drama. It starts and ends with me going back to Italy to confront my prosecutor, me making a choice, me being a protagonist in my own life again, instead of just being at the, you know, helpless and at the whim of other people. Yeah. It's a choice that I made as a character in the show. Right. And that's like that hero's journey that a person goes on as, you know, as a,

in a fairy tale. Yeah, because that's how I picture you telling your children is like, this is a powerful story. Yes. Where you are the hero, you know, and you, you do get to have your truth and like. Or if not the hero, then at least. somebody who's making some choices. Yeah. I think of you as a hero. That's how I would make it about you. But yeah, it's like it can be a very powerful story.

Yeah. For her, yeah. Wow. Yeah, I can't, I just can't even imagine because I dream of having children one day. Yeah. And even just alone thinking of telling them like, well, if you Google me. Yeah. Yeah.

And if you, so it's not just the even like if you Google me thing, but it's also what kind of world am I introducing you to. Oh. that's it's terrifying so how do i make a world that's going to be kinder to my daughter that it was to me making the path for her in a much bigger way this right here is an ad by better help and you know these days it feels like there's just advice for everything everywhere cold plunges gratitude journals screen detoxes but how do you really know what's actually working for you i've definitely felt overwhelmed by all the wellness and mental health content out there i feel like it's just like

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That's ladyworld, L-A-D-Y-World.co. But hurry up because they are really going fast. Lady World presented by Elf Cosmetics takes over Destin this September. I did want to talk about just podcast. public perception, because so much of the public's opinion of you came from what was called your strange behavior, which always annoyed me. Like, you were smiling and laughing in the infamous cartwheel that you didn't even do, right? I didn't even do, no. Like, a cartwheel, I'm just like, I don't understand how you're not allowed to grieve a certain way. Like, if you smile, if you're

happy with your boyfriend. Like, yeah. So this, I think, is, it goes back to that, like, anatomy of bias thing, because what really went on is that the police made a decision very early on that I was somehow involved in my roommate's death, and they pushed to arrest me before they had evidence, right? So they were going off of their own sort of, instead of allowing the evidence at the crime scene to guide them, right? Like, there is forensic evidence that they gathered from the crime scene. They approached the crime scene, had some gut feelings about it, and those gut feelings then informed their ability to perceive what was happening around them.

And I think that they just had a limited imagination about what my context was. So one thing that I think this show really does a good job of is showing who knows what, when. Yeah. Because everyone who looks back on this case previously has just assumed that everyone had the same information at the same time and then sort of puts them next to each other and says, well, they're crying and she's not crying and therefore she's a psychopath, right? Yeah. Well, people don't realize that everyone was speaking Italian except for me. And so in the, you know, in the initial

like discovery of the crime scene, say, I did not see my friend's body. Right. I did not see it. So when everyone starts screaming in Italian and talking over each other and one of my roommates is hysterical, I don't know what's going on. Your body went into freeze mode. I went into freeze mode, and I'm trying to, like, pick up what people are even saying to understand what everyone is so upset about. Because I don't know that my roommate has been murdered. Wow. And so when they, you know, take a video of me getting like a kiss from my boyfriend outside of the crime scene and they say, look at her making out with her boyfriend. They're not thinking, here's a girl who's in shock, who's trying to figure out what's going on and her boyfriend is comforting her.

Yeah, that's what I saw. Well, and that's the interesting thing. what do you see depends on what you want to see. This is what confirmation bias is. This is when you have a lens that makes you interpret reality a certain way. Did I kiss my boyfriend? Yes, that is a fact. Does it mean that I was guilty of involvement in the crime?

Only if you assume a certain number of things. These are interpretations of facts. And so why do we interpret facts the way we do? that is the question. And that is a reflection on who's making that assumption. Exactly. Yeah. God, there's so much of that out there.

In every, I can't even, yeah. And what drives me nuts about it, too, is like people point to my behavior and say, oh, look, she was acting guilty. And it's like, you know what acting guilty looks like? Hiding, not being at the scene. Well, yeah. Running out of the country. Sorry, this is an Italian thing where you're like, I mean, skipping out. It's like running away.

the crime that you just committed, which is what the real killer did. Like, one of the things that people don't even... Hi, he fled the country. He fled the country. He fled the country. He took on a false identity. Like, his DNA was all over the crime scene. He had a history of breaking and entering. And still nobody, do you know his name? No. Right? Nobody knows his name. And I just watched it this morning. I know, right? Like, because he wasn't the focus of the case.

He was not the lens. And he's forgotten about living in life. He's currently on trial for us. assaulting another young woman. You're kidding me. I'm not kidding you. This is what... Why am I shocked? I'm not shocked. So again, the lens. Why do we interpret reality a certain way? Why do we focus on one thing or another? These are the questions that are really at the heart of this case and at the heart of this series. Did, because now my brain is going back to what I just watched this morning because I was trying to think of that guy's name, your boyfriend, Raphael. Do you two still keep in touch? Yeah. Yeah. He's going to be here for the premiere.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So you didn't, I would hold the grudge on that mother so hard. I'd be like, you turned on me. Just kidding. Oh, no. I mean, I was in an interrogation too. You know, like we were both kids overwhelmed like. No, that makes sense. I love hearing that too because that's, well, I just like said it with you. The interrogation and your mind and the gas lighting happened to him too. Oh, yeah. Yeah. 100%. And you're scared. And you're so scared. And he's known me a week. Yeah. What does he know?

True. And he's being accused of participating in a crime. He has nothing to do with. And just because he's my alibi. Right. Like, are you kidding me? Right. So.

Oh, I'm glad he's going to be at the premiere. That's nice that you still have that friendship. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we've both grown a lot through this. And like, you know, he's had to deal with his own trauma about this because, again, he's also not someone that people really think of when they think of this case. And he's also suffered just as much as I have.

Absolutely. Have you seen any of the series yet? Did you get a screener link? No. Oh. I wanted one. Last night I was talking with the people at Hulu. I was like,

How's nobody got me to? Yeah, no, okay. Because what does it come out? The 20th? So August 20th, tomorrow. I don't know when this podcast is coming out. I'm going to try and have it come out very soon. Okay, great.

So you'll be able to see the first two episodes tomorrow. Yeah. And then if you want, you can try to sneak some screener links from Hulu. But for those who cannot get it. screener links. One episode will come out every week after that. So there's eight episodes total. And I almost feel like it's a good thing that they space them out because they get really intense, really fast. Yeah, you need like a week to digest. Yeah. I mean, yeah, made, I mean, there's so many, like, lighthearted elements in this, in this series. Like,

AJ had this amazing idea to be inspired by Amelie, which is the movie that I was watching, the night that this crime occurred. And so, like, you know, there's fun elements to it. Yeah. And the, but there's also intense things. Yeah. So I think that what's really cool about this series is that there is something for everyone. Yeah.

Like if you're a true crime nut, you know, like, you're going to enjoy the true crime element of it. But if you're just like a human, you know, story kind of person, like that is what it ultimately is grounded. And all of those things. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Okay. So we know it comes out on Hulu tomorrow. Yes.

First two episodes and then one per week. Yep. Congratulations on that. Thank you. That's a that's a really big deal and it's a really important deal. Yeah. And then I wanted to close with because I'm like, I feel like your roommate, her name has just been this headline. I'm like maybe we could talk about like a few positive things that she was. Oh yeah. Totally. I love that especially because even the prosecution like in making her, you know, in pursuing justice for her. Yeah. Turned her into a caricature. Yeah. Like they made her out to be this like uptight judgmental. person and she was not that at all we made cookies together we went thrift shopping together like she was a year older than me and a little more sophisticated so she like was making sure that I was safe like one of the things again this is like you know Meredith did everything right right like she never walked home alone she always had she was always telling me make sure you have someone walk home with you I'll walk home with you just like make sure that night she had someone walk home with her. Wow. And she was attacked in her own home. Like she did everything right. Yeah. And still,

this happened to her. She was so sweet. She liked to dance in, when she was doing the laundry. And she loved to dance. And she loved music. And, you know, she loved to read mystery novels. Like I would very often find her just like on the terrace sunbathing and reading. a book and I mean she was a real person yeah and that's something that we try to like honor in the show as well as it's like she was not a caricature yeah she was not an uptight judgmental person like she was very warm she was very welcoming and she was young and you know on her own adventure and also having fun you know like so tragic it's just so so so tragic I've I lost a best friend when I was 18 in a tragic accident and I just I

get so, like, touched by, like, you know, because it wasn't this crazy headline story, but in my small area, it shook everyone so much. And I couldn't believe how there was a reporter outside of the funeral when we were, like, carrying her out, trying to ask me questions. And I was like, whoa. And it's like, I just wanted her to, I still, to this day, I still try and live out her legacy and, like, share fun stories about her because it's important. So I wanted to end on that and share how special she was. that I can't imagine, I can because I've lost a friend, but in that way and just everything you've had to go through with it. So I don't know you, but I'm very proud of you.

Oh, thank you. Yeah, I am. It's been such a pleasure to talk to you. It really has been. I have said this maybe three times in the last eight years, but I think this might be one of my favorite interviews. Just the way you carry yourself, but also speak and just like the passion and the life that you have back in you. And it's, I'm like, I'm just really proud of you. Thank you. Yeah. I can't wait to watch and just cheer you on and all the things.

Thank you. I appreciate that. Thank you for sharing your story and continuing to do so through many platforms, which, as you should. Thank you. Yes. It's beautiful. Amazing. Thank you, guys.

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All for free on your favorite devices. Pluto TV. Stream now. Pay never. Hi, guys. My name is Hayden, and a lot of you have been asking me to start a podcast. Okay, I'm totally kidding. Nobody asked me to start a podcast. The world did absolutely not need another podcast, but I wanted to because there's no

place on the internet where I can yap for 30 to 45 minutes straight with my best friends, you guys, and just shoot the shit. Talk about all of my favorite things like social media, pop culture, reality TV, influencers. We all know I love a good influencer. And that's what you can expect from my new podcast. A lot of you have been asking. This is a space. for some real conversations with some of my favorite creators, reality stars, maybe even a celebrity or two if they answer my DM. This is all about the world behind the curtain that I really want to share with you guys. Allow me to ask the questions that you've been dying to know the answers to. And allow me to tell my guests that a lot of you have been asking.

You guys can listen to, follow, rate and review. A lot of you have been asking with me, Hayden Cohen, wherever you get podcasts.