Off The Vine with Kaitlyn Bristowe - Clayton & Susie: The One About the Breakup

Episode Date: October 4, 2022

It’s a raw and emotional episode as Clayton and Susie join Kaitlyn for an exclusive interview following their very recent breakup. While it's of course difficult to open up about what went wrong and what’s next, Clayton and Susie do not hold back as they share the details behind their decision to separate and whether there is a possibility for reconciliation moving forward. Will they continue to be friends? What role did social media play in their relationship and their breakup? Was their decision to move to separate states a breakup “soft launch?” And, what advice do they have for future couples of The Bachelor franchise? They leave nothing off the table as they answer these questions and more, getting deep about both the darkest moments of their relationship and the brightest ones that kept them going.  Thank you to our sponsors! Check out these deals for the Vinos: European Wax Center - Make a reservation today — your first wax is free. Progressive - Quote at Progressive.com to join the over 27 million drivers who trust Progressive. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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a new state of smooth at European Wax Center. Make a reservation today because your first wax is free. And Progressive. Quote at Progressive.com to join the over 27 million drivers who trust Progressive. Caitlin Bristow. Get ready to laugh, connect, and feel empowered with Caitlin and her guests as they sip wine, lots of wine, and get candid. They say vulnerability creates connection. So save the highlight reel for Instagram, because when we're among Vino's, there's no filter. It's time to unwind. Here's your host, Caitlin Bristow. Welcome to Off the Vine. I'm your host, Caitlin Bristow. Welcome to Off the Vine. I'm your host, Caitlin Bristow, and I'm not going to lie. Usually I have some sort of funny little intro where I just like, you know, talk about everything. We talked about the jokes that were made and how funny it is. This is definitely more of a serious episode. I don't know how many episodes I've put out there in my life, but it's been about five years of me doing this. I think I've cried three times on a podcast. And this was one of them. It's hard to navigate a breakup in your own world. And when you have to put it out there for the public after the public has already beaten you down, it's got to be really

challenging. So for Susie and Clayton to come do this together, showed just how much love and respect they have for each other. But I'm not going to lie. I'm really sad about this breakup, but I also got a lot of closure. And I'm rooting for them both. And I think you will have a lot more of an understanding about the breakup after listening to this. So here's Clayton and Susie. I feel like such a door for these in right now. It's like, cool. I know. I know. I don't even know. I look, you love it. I mean, it doesn't look bad at the gym, but, like, they're going to be like, what has he got in his ears?

I know. I'll have to tell Caitlin that I gave this to you as sabotage. Well, you know what? I mean, and I also, like, don't like to, like, clip this. I think it's, like, it's, like, restraining me. So I'm like, I'm just going to let him fly. It's going to stick out. No, stop being, stop being cute, you guys.

Oh, stop, Caitlin. How's it going? I'm good. How are you guys? we're good we're on a phone call before this and I think we were like having a lot of conversation

and yeah I mean like good good because good stuff for the most part I didn't get to tell you but I apologize I think I get just it's like the realization

sometimes like we have I'm like gosh like why am I realizing the stuff now what do you mean like what well just like I think conversationally speaking like as far as like our communication styles we usually find a way at some time or another to like figure out what each of us are trying to say

but it takes us like three hours yeah yeah that's okay and then i think that's like where i i'm just like man this like we were just like we were just like we were just you know i've been able to get to these points in 20 minutes um and so i think i i just it's like it's upset it's sad you know it's like oh man this sucks like why and i don't know i think communication styles like i always i wish i guess i could be a better communicator it's just like tough when you're like we spend hours and hours and hours and like there's a lot of hurt in those hours but then we get to this end point like oh that's what you were trying to say and it's just like like dang why couldn't i've said it that way i guess at the beginning or why couldn't we have understood at the beginning well is it too late i mean okay well get i'm like such a hopeless romantic for you guys but okay so first of all thank you for coming on and talking about this because i'm telling you the emotional maturity y'all have i was talking to my producer about it and i'm like i couldn't have done it like i could not have gone on a podcast through a public breakup granted i i honestly

clearly didn't have like the respect that you two have for each other which i think is nice which we will talk about because i just have i have so many feelings because i love you guys so much and i care about you both individually so much you know that and as a you know together and now a part that's okay too but i mean you were both just on a podcast back in July. So I guess that was a little, my podcast, a little while back. But I do remember you were, you've always been super upfront and honest about your relationship where it stands. Like even if you're like, yeah, right now we're making it work or this has been really hard and we're going through this. You've always been really open with your struggles, which I think a lot of

people appreciate. So is that still important to you moving forward, um, right now in what you're feeling? I think it is. Yeah. I think it is. Yeah. I think it is. I think we talked before this podcast, and we both kind of agreed, like, obviously we want people to know that this is very loving and we love each other. And there's things that are private to us that we probably will never talk about. And, like, that's totally normal. And I think that's, like, healthy. And that protects our mental health and the things that we have struggled with. And at the same time, we're very much open books.

to some extent. I mean, we met on a very open platform, a television show. And then, you know, we've opened up on social media and podcasts. And we've always been pretty up front about, like, it's not easy. I don't think any relationship is, but especially coming from a television show. So, yeah, I think it's important to be transparent, but also, like, we have things where we're like, yeah, we want to respect even each other's boundaries of like, I don't want to talk about this or that's not comfortable for me. So that's just so, I mean, I just, it makes me realize how immature I was in my last breakup. Like, I was like, like, biting my tongue on everything. I could totally throw them under the bus for, but like you want to take the high road. But like, it does come across. Obviously, you both just like love and respect each other so much, which is incredible. And I know you guys have said even before you've considered a breakup, but you wanted to work through it because, you know, being together essentially was better than being apart. So can I ask how long this conversation had been going on between you two?

We had these talks because there was so much going on and there was so many factors at play. This wasn't a traditional relationship. This was a relationship that was broadcast on national television. And so, and there was so many moving parts that, you know, we, especially I can speak to this, I wasn't really sure of what my next step was going to be once the show ended. I had uprooted myself. I had sold my place.

I was like, okay, I can go wherever. but as far as what I end up doing, am I going to go back to corporate America? Am I going to go back or am I going to chase these my passions? There were all this unknown. And I think like it put me in a place of instability. Plus with like the backlash from the show, it became very overwhelming very quickly.

And so what I think ended up happening was, is like I was trying to figure out what I was my next step was. I started questioning who I was because of all the negativity. So I started to believe some of what was being said about me. And I now look back at it and realize, like, I couldn't be that stable, secure man that I needed to be to really be able to give my own relationships. So much of what I was struggling with was self-identity. I lost my identity, I think, through all of this. And I tried to take everything on my shoulders and say, I need to fix all of this because you're a complete wreck.

because look what everyone's saying about you. And so I say all that to say, I feel that a lot of the pain and everything that I was experiencing made it very challenging for me to just be myself. And in that, I think that's where a lot of strain was caused. And our relationship was, I was telling, you know, Susie, hey, once I get past these things, once I find my confidence again,

once I love myself again, then I'll be able to love you, but just give me three more months. Just give me three more months. And I just couldn't heal in the time that I thought I was going to heal. It was just kept stretching. And then there was more commentary in a new season and more comments for being said. And my name was constantly on Twitter. And I was like, I am trying so hard to heal because I know that if I don't,

then how am I supposed to pour into this relationship when I am struggling to know what I truthfully want and where my future is going to go? So these conversations popped up a few times just in those instances. And I was, because it was hard to say, like, we both saw each other hurting. And there's so much love. And I was like, I want to fight so hard for this relationship. But I feel like the more I fight, the more I tear her down. Interesting.

And I'm like so emotional over here. I'm so sorry to cut you off. But we just talked for like two hours. And I was, we were fine. I wasn't crying or anything. but I think just hearing that and like yeah I think a lot of it was just like self-identity and and I think that he was looking for stability and there were times where I didn't provide that as well because I wasn't I just wasn't sure you know I was like you know I can't wait three months

I can't I can't promise three months or whatever and I think that's really hard in a relationship too when you know I'm on the other hand like why you know I need security and I need you know I need this or that you know i want to be two whole people um so just even hearing that back just i even think just seeing clayton i haven't seen your face oh my god this is so dramatic that i'm crying it's not dramatic at all i'm sorry i honestly i i swear to you on everything like i'm trying not to cry because again freaking back to like having this platform where people were invested in your relationship so you feel this responsibility to share with everyone listening right now,

like your true feelings. And it's sweet to know that, like, you know, it's sweet to see how much you guys still care. And you haven't, this is so real to me. And you know how much I love authentic people and real emotions and feelings. And it's just so real. And thank you for being able to just, you know,

share with us your emotions of what you're feeling. Because I can't imagine how hard that is, even just seeing, you know, like you guys clearly have, like, a solid not foundation because no one does after that show um but like a solid um like almost friendship that you wish it could be more but at this point in your lives it can't be and that's hard to accept you probably don't want to accept that especially you know with everybody watching and it was it's crazy too because you know you guys weren't the favorite couple that's

ever come out of the show and then people quickly turned and were like you two are hilarious together and you see like how special your bond is and people were really rooting for you so that's another like added element to everything of the stress and you know that's got to be hard on both of you yeah i think that was something we kind of noticed well when these conversations started like we've visited the topic of do we want to break up and like heal and and see if this works out later or we've you know visited are we just not compatible and then it kind of was like a quick turn where you know we were moving out we had to have the conversation But that was one of the things we talked about where I was like, wow, like we've overcome so much.

And there was so much pain and like so much hatred towards both of us individually and then together. And then some people like Tim, some people like me, very few people like this together. And then I do feel like we'd even acknowledged like in our conversations, we're like, wow, it's crazy. Like it feels like the tides are just now starting to turn. And, you know, we're taking the steps that we need as people to do. better in our own personal lives and to do what's right for us and that like I think we are both somewhat fearful of like the backlash of like oh is this going to as are the tides going to turn and one of us are going to be you know hated again or whatever but yeah it's just been an interesting

roller coaster of how people didn't embrace us then did and yeah I think ultimately we just want everyone to know that like we want everyone to support both of us like we don't want it to be ever to be teens well i can see that like that i mean just the fact that you two can show up together for a podcast to talk about this speaks volumes about that it's just yeah it's really tough because we saw the tides turning but the damage was done already and i think that was what hurt more than anything was uh it's really hard when if you take six months or this really this last year i guess technically since we started talking off the show it's been a year at this point um and it's it's, well, if you add up all of those days and you think how many of those days were dark days

and the sad thing is, is like a lot of people saw all the happiness online, but like we had a lot of dark days because if it wasn't me going through it one day, it was her going through it. But one of us, I feel like at every, at least for a stretch of a week, one of us was taking heat for something in our DMs. And so we had to be there for each other. But while that was happening, we also were taking heat in our DMs. And it was. All of this chatter and noise and all the unknown, I think there's this misconception that people like, you know what you signed up for. And it's like, no, we don't know what we signed up for. I could have never imagined that I was going to get thousands of death threats in my DMs.

I couldn't imagine that I was going to spend the vast majority of my relationship trying to convince, you know, Susie, that like, hey, I'm going to be better once I heal. like just please give me time and the thing is is yeah it's it's really just tough to be in a relationship and try to be mending your relationship that has damage mending your public image that's completely in shambles and then to like please everybody around you the show the fans your relationships like like your interpersonal relationships your loved ones all of that like trying to explain to everybody, but you know you can only say so much about certain things because some things we can't talk about. And you feel, I felt like there was this vice grip on me

or these, like, where I couldn't basically just breathe a sigh of relief because I was like, there's always something that we're combating. A cheating scandal. That was that was treacherous and like to our relationship. That really hurt us because it was just one more thing that piled on. And I think if you took any of these things and you just isolated them, I think we would have gotten through it with flying colors. But we were just, it was like one thing after the next. And then the show came on. And then it was like, you know, Clayton sucks. And it was all these, you know, talking about this, that and the other.

And it's like that hurts those comments. You know, because what that does is that then brings the focus back on to us. And then people online are like, yeah, he does suck. And so it's like, even if it's all. Opening wounds again. Yeah. Even if it's all in good fun. and it's like, oh, it's just mindless entertainment.

It's like, no, that still has impact because people will take that comment or that video and then they're going to go on Twitter and they're going to tweet about it. And I had everybody tell me, and again, I think this is just where it falls on my shoulders. Everyone's like, a lot of people that had been on the show prior, like, get off social media. Do not read into it. And like I just, well, like we, I just couldn't do it. I couldn't do it. I find, like, people don't really understand the impact they have on you.

even if they're strangers. And people tell me all the time to get over trolls. And it's like nobody, like you said, your loved ones even are not going to fully understand. Even people who have been on this show, like myself, I could easily say to you, why are you letting the noise get to you? But I know firsthand that it's not that easy because social media also becomes not only part of your life, but part of your job and your work and opportunities are in there. and being like a presence on social media is important and connecting with people is important and you just happen to see all of these things and people do not understand the damage that it does to like it's soul crushing especially when you are this fresh off the show I too like if

there was a podcast podcast wasn't really a thing when I came out of the show Instagram stories weren't a thing and I remember a feeling like like I didn't have a voice because I wasn't able to like go on and talk about this and you know like that i wasn't able to explain myself and say how much people were hurting me i you know i could only use small opportunities in little interviews here and there but i always try and say like it's it's so hard because you two are very relatable people but it's hard for a lot of people to relate to like well we broke up because the noise and people were hating on me because it is so easy for them to say oh my god ignore it like you're throwing away a beautiful thing just ignore the noise and you could be happy

but it's just not that easy. And I've heard you guys, you know, and it's not just you. It's just you have both been super vocal about how much that has affected you personally and in your relationship. But I do want to point out, and this is something that I wanted to talk about after my last breakup was just because you saw all those happy moments doesn't mean they didn't happen. Like those happy times were happy times. The stuff you were putting out, you guys did have that beautiful, laughing, hilarious relationship where you could joke with each other. And those were happy times. And you want to share those. And a lot of times people aren't going to see those dark times. So you do keep those to yourself. But just because, you know, people,

I hope they're not saying, oh, was that fake or whatever? Because those things still really happened. And those joyful, happy moments were still there. Yeah. Definitely. That's like, I mean, that's almost the most shocking, uh, maybe comment or like response that I see is like people who say, oh, they're just, like somebody said, like, oh, there's six-month contract of us up. I was like, first of all, there isn't one. Second of all, like, that wouldn't stop me from anything. But, you know, I also think, I'm like, do, I mean, I don't know. Maybe some people could, but I'm like, I couldn't, I couldn't fake, like, the joy and the happiness and, like, the laughing until you pee your pants that we had together.

Like, we truly, and that's the thing is, like, I look back at our relationship and we had so many just, like, fun. moments and that was like after we decided that we were going to break up we were on the couch one day and you're just sitting there and Clayton said some comment that was so funny to me and he busted out laughing and I busted out crying and I was just like I'm going to miss this so much and like I just couldn't help my tears and I think Clayton was like holy crap like what the hell was that you know like he was like thinking we were about to have like a moment of like laughter and I just was like sobbing because it's like I'm going to miss like having so much fun with you. So yeah, it's not like there wasn't real or wasn't there.

And you're having to go through, you know, the grieving steps of losing somebody. And so you're going to have times where you're laughing and you're okay and then you're going to be mad and then you're going to be sad and then you're going to be resentful and then you're going to be happy. And you're going to go through all those things. And it's what's hard is because I know you two have such a good friendship foundation that you would usually be there for each other during those ups and downs. And so that's got to be really hard. And just for you know people out there that are listening who saw like you're moving to different states and everyone was like this is a soft launch for a breakup which it probably was but you

people have to understand that that timing had to be right for you two to come out and say this together and you two had to process a lot together did you like no moving away from each other you knew it was you know not going to continue at that time no and this is one that I think we just had this realization, I'm not kidding, you probably an hour before this conversation, it was a misunderstanding and a miscommunication is that what led us to being on different pages of like what we thought was happening and why. And so like we were planning to move together to wherever first. And we kind of talked about New York. We talked about, originally I thought East Coast because I was like, oh, you know, I figured she wanted to stay close to her family.

She had mentioned it. But then she said, hey, how about, you know, West Coast? And I was like, oh, like, you would do West Coast. And she was like, yeah, absolutely. And I was like, well, what about, you know, Phoenix? Because I have brothers in Phoenix. So, or a brother. And so I was like, you know, that I think, like, I would definitely, we could do that. So then I was like, okay, we're moving together. And then, like, this is where, like, we just came as realization. I was like, man, like, we did so, we tried so hard to communicate everything, but we just missed it like we just didn't fully talk it out I guess like as far as I said that I at one time I needed to like have stability back and I was going to go back to corporate and so Sue's solid is like okay he's going to have stability I will follow him with this stability back into corporate America I'll follow him to Scottsdale but then I went back on it and said well maybe I'll chase my passions of mental health speaking like I'll just chase that so I won't go into corporate because that'll take away from my ability to do just the mental health speaking took back that stability that I was talking about having and then I think

that's where Susie again so you can jump at any point I think she was you know thinking like okay hey if you're going to kind of go search in these next couple months and figure this out um then like I will also maybe like I'll go check like some things out and see like also figure out what maybe the next chapter of my life looks like and we can do this and figure this out and so I'll go to L.A. You can go to Scottsdale. We'll both work on these passion projects. And then when there's more stability, we can kind of come back together. That was, is that kind of, I mean, Susie, I'm still trying to like make, this is one of these things that we just talked about this like an hour ago and we're like, oh, I think we still have these conversations. We're like,

oh, that's what it was. Because I think we just, there's so much that happen with this relationship that like we've tried to make sense of so many things. And we still today after being broken up are still making sense of things that happen because too much happens. Okay, so some of my favorite things in life are the things that make me feel a little more confident, okay? I just want to feel great in my skin, you know? Who doesn't? Well, one thing that always gives me that feeling literally great in my skin is a wax, to be

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a little bit more time and this like emotional security will be there and this what like Clayton was kind of and I don't want to speak for you but I felt like there was kind of this like once I have this stability here then like I will have you know this emotional and like mental stability back and I felt like there was this like promise of that and it was one night where he came to me and was like I want to, I think I want to go back to corporate and I think that the best thing is to like invest in a property in Phoenix and, you know, I'd have connections there and I can get a job and I was like 100%. Like if that's what you need in this season of life, like I'm cool with that. Like I don't need to, you know, be traveling around or be in New York or L.A. or whatever. But I think when, yeah,

when the decision wasn't to be in corporate anymore and it was to kind of still be in this like limbo, And Clayton knows, of all people, like, I'm the one that's, like, literally go for your dreams. Like, I am the first person to tell everybody, like, go achieve whatever it is that your heart desires. And, like, I believe, like, everyone can do it if they want to, if you really want to. But I think, like, for me, I was like, it doesn't really make sense for me to pick up and move my life to Phoenix without knowing what this is going to really look like. If there's no, like, promise of that stability that I've been hoping for or that we've been hoping for, you know, emotionally that emotional stability and so it was kind of like okay you go figure out what you want to do like where you land if you get a house that can be home base and i'm going to get a studio in

la and we'll go back and forth and we'll see if this makes sense and um no i don't even i'm like i don't know what i'm doing i don't know where i think that's and that's how i think we both are now is we're both like we realized we don't really know i mean it sucked because when we had this conversation hour ago, I was like, so if I would have just picked the stability route, could that have changed things? But I also was like, Susie was helping me chase my passions and not just go back to what I've known. That's been safe my entire life. I mean, my entire life, I've played a lot. It's safe. And I realized that like safe doesn't bring you happiness sometimes. And so as I started doing these one-off speaking engagements, I realized,

I'm like, this is my calling. This is my passion. These kids are DMing me telling me that, like, they that i've given them a new lease on life and that they're no longer suicidal and people have reached out to me about bi dysmorphia how i've talked about it and it's made them feel more comfortable and not alone and i i realize i'm like i can't give up on this dream and this passion of mine how do i find enough stability mentally that i can provide for susy but also like i don't want to take away from me chasing after my passion that truthfully is giving me life just chasing and and reaching these kids and making a major difference bigger than i ever have so why am I crying?

Why am I crying? That's so like it's just it's emotional. It's emotional and it's like I just like think that's so it's huge and it's so confusing and it's so hard because you have one life and you're making a difference and Susie's the number one person to say go after your dreams and Susie you have such a beautiful career that you enjoy doing and you both can do that from different places and when people when people are not healed themselves they cannot be who they need to be for somebody else. but the problem with that is I don't think going back to corporate America and feeling stable would bring you joy and so then it's like sure you would be more stable financially but that doesn't matter in life like I know it's nice but like being happy don't you think that like you have a better chance at making things work between the two of you if you actually just go separate ways heal chase your dreams and then realize like holy shit that was just a season that

we had to get through and we did it and like do you think there's a chance for you too to get there or is it too soon to tell? I think we both realize like we there's again there's so much ahead that we aren't sure like we're taking this day by day. I mean there's so much there's healing. It's sad because I felt like I felt a sense of peace almost since like we ended things not because I mean I miss Susie. I miss our relationship. Obviously there's still so much love there. but I felt like I didn't have to answer to anybody anymore. I didn't no longer were people going to message of me saying, when are you guys going to get married?

There was no longer the pressure. When are you going to have kids? When are you going to do this, this? Oh my gosh. I would post content about mental health. We want more Susie content. There was all this pressure to like to be something for all these, the masses, like this audience. And like right now I'm in this place where I'm like no longer is there pressure for me to be

anything other than myself and chase after what it is that I want to chase after. And I gave too much weight to others. That was something that I've learned since. I'm like, I have to live this life for myself and only make those that I can, that are around me that my loved one's happy. I can't give the power that I did to the people on the outside. We said, hey, is there a chance down the road that this could, you know, we could work things out? Like, yeah, we're not going to say there's not the possibility. But there's still a lot of pain that came from. from the entire situation itself that I think we can both say we are kind of far off from healing from right now.

Like we need more time. I don't know if that's three, six months a year, two years, whatever, but like the damage, it's still too fresh. And does that, so when you heal yourselves individually, because you have such strong love and respect for each other and you clearly like we're talking an hour ago, does it look like you two will be there for each other as friends during this? Or do you have to like cut it off and commit to being apart? you don't even know yet i mean i've reached out twice to clayton the past week but i mean i feel

like i could be friends but i don't know maybe clayton i don't know but do you do you feel like you would need more space like i get the sense that you need more space like i had a fear of coming on this podcast just because like i don't have all the answers right now i like we talked about coming on this podcast like in doing it a day or two earlier and i was like no i backed out of it And then I almost backed out of it like an hour leading up this because I'm fearful of like I don't have the answers today. And I'm like, I don't even know if what I'm going to say on this podcast is how I'm going to feel tomorrow because it feels like such a moving target with everything as far as just more the more of making sense of it as time passes and reflecting back as things that finally slowed down to be able to really like give my whole focus into like, okay, let me dissect each of these things. Yeah. I think people expect that though of you.

like I think that's so real to say like I it's scary to come on a podcast or it's scary to talk about this. We already have this responsibility to share what we're going through with people when we probably would have kept this more private. And if it wasn't for so much speculation and people feeling like we owe them something. But I mean, what I keep hearing is that like like you're just you're still worried about what people are going to say. But if people listen to this and even just me listening to this, I'm like, that's so real. That makes so much sense to me. Of course you're still processing this in real time you could feel different tomorrow you can feel different an hour you can feel different a year from now it's that that's part of the process of a breakup is going through

different phases of how you feel and it's scary and I think that's why it's so cool that's stupid word to use but like to be able to like use a platform to talk about it because you can't like go into the depths of like this kind of conversation on an Instagram story like that's my podcasting to me is so much more real and authentic because it's like an on conversation for however many minutes of just like real talk and that what you just said makes a lot of sense to me yeah and i guess to answer that sus i can give you an answer to the question like again i think we haven't talked like we said you know should we keep in contact should we check in once a week should we still send each other funny memes that oh susie was more the one that did that

she sent me a ton of tic-toks and and memes like every day i'm like i'm like susa barely go on ticot why Why don't I have 100 messages from these videos? No, literally, I was going to say, you need to check your TikToks because I've been sending them still. There's a lot of things. I have not one on. Yeah, TikTok in a minute. But I think it's really hard because when we first broke up, I was my first initial feeling was like, I felt abandoned. Like that was my first feeling was like, oh, we're just going to end this.

And so I was upset and I didn't want to even like, I didn't even want to look in her direction because I was like, if I look at you, like the hurt is going to just like tear me apart. He was very sassy. I did not. I was like, oh, that's how we're going to do it. And that lasted, you know, yeah, that lasted like half a day. And then I was like, I can't do this. Like, I'm like, I can't ignore her for this, you know, next week or so. Like, I'm like, I can't do this.

I don't want to do this. Like, there's so much love here. Like, I want us to end on happy terms. So then I apologize and was like, hey, like, I want us to be happy. And then we were happy for a few days, you know. But then like, we started crying. And to the point where we were like, should we're like crying nonstop because we're like, wait, we're having so much fun now. Like should we not break up?

So then we're going to talk about not breaking up. And then we just like, I just, I don't know. I don't have, that's something I don't have the answer to. I'm like, Susie has reached out. And I feel that I'm like, well, I don't know if I should, should we keep talking? Like, I, it's tough because it's like, I told Susie, I said it was what hurts about relationships is that I can only pull from the previous. one. And like in my last relationship, we kept talking after it ended. And it dragged our relationship like over a year where like we were still kind of keeping in contact. And those

feelings didn't fade until we cut it completely off. It was like we were basically holding on to like the possibility. And so there was always like those feelings just persisted. And so I think that's where I'm like, okay, that was just that relationship. Can Susie and I find a way to like still keep in contact but not hold on to this like feeling of what can this work because what happens if it doesn't like I don't want to be crushed and hold on to hope yeah and then all of a sudden it'd be like no this isn't going to work you know six months later and it's just like then it just destroys you a second time so I think that's where like that's something as we haven't discussed this and as it was this question's asked and it's like it's a day to day thing I'm like I I mean

every time she calls I get happy I'm excited like and I pick up and I'm like okay like I want to see how she's doing and make sure she's doing okay with then i'm like every time i get off the phone and even like talking now it's like oh could maybe this could work so like we have to separate but so like so it's like i don't know where that balances and i think that's where we're just like we i don't have the answer to that right now and i don't know like that's that's hard that is hard because again i'm only going off what you're saying but like it does sound like if it wasn't for this you know whirlwind of a show and the aftermath and the social media like you two probably would have a really beautiful thing um but if you think about it you probably had

all this work to do on yourselves like both of you that this really brought to the surface so it's like a blessing in disguise at the same this is why it's also hard and confusing because you're like well i probably needed to go through this in life to like be able to fully heal and dive deep into my mental health and do things that better me so that I can be a better partner for somebody down the road. So timing is always everything. And this is going to be either a really easy question or a really challenging question. But what role do you think that social media had in your relationship? Yeah, I think, and that this is where we kind of differ. Like, I think that I have a lot more experience being on social media in general. And I mean, I love social media. I think

it's so fun. Like, as a videographer, a big part of my job is on social media and I like to consume content. I like to create it. And I think coming from, um, I competed at Miss USA and I competed at Miss Teen USA when I was 17 and it's like, I've had people shit on me for my body and say that I will never, you know, be competitive and I will never, you know, look the part. And I've had people literally like say horrible things about the way that I look. And by no, means is it okay and nobody should ever do it but like i think that there is like a tough skin from that but i think the the social media that really hurt me were the things that um like attacked or not even attacked but like really um affected like my character you know people saying like i got

dm saying like you're anti woman and by being with clayton that i'm you know being degrading to all the women that he hurt along the way and things like that and that was the stuff that was I was like, damn, like, is this the narrative that people believe? Because that's so far from who both of us are. Like, nobody's perfect. And you cannot be a lead and be perfect. Like, I think all three of us sitting here, I mean, I've never been a lead. But, like, I have compassion for the people in that position because it is fucking hard.

And you can't do it perfect. And, like, that is one thing. Like, I know Clayton's heart was genuine and in the right place. But, like, the backlash from just being with him. I'm like, that was, that was painful because it had to do with my character. And I think that was like a, like a new kind of hate that I hadn't experienced. I don't think that really affected my relationship with Clayton. But I think that it, I think social media in general, like, played into the struggle of our self-image.

And, you know, questioning just how we view ourselves. And that's something that I've really focused on even the past week of being apart is like, I just really need to rebuild. my self-image and my self-esteem as a person, as a woman, like, I need to regain that for myself because I have let some of the outside voices get in and affect me. I'm not going to lie, I love, I do love to troll people back and, like, I don't know that that's going to stop. Like, it was really hard on our breakup post not to go in and just, like, rip people, like, in a funny way, never in a new way. You don't have to explain to me. That's me, too. That's exactly why I am. I just love it. Like, because, and I've always been like that. Like, I mean,

I just think like I'm unhinged on social media like I'll take my pants on a moon everybody and put it on my story and think it's so funny until like I'm in trouble the next day on the news like and like I just I don't give a shit I just think it's fun this week's off the vine is brought to you by progressive insurance let's face it we all know it multitasking can be overwhelming like when your favorite podcast is playing and the person next to you is talking and your car fan is blasting and you're just trying to find that perfect parking spot but then Then again, sometimes multitasking is easy, which we love, like quoting with Progressive Insurance. They do all of the hard work of comparing rates so you can find a great rate that works for you even if it's not with them. That says a lot about their confidence. So give their nifty comparison tool a try. You might just find that getting the rate and coverage that you deserve is easy. Now, all you need to do is go visit Progressive's website, get a quote with all the coverages you want, like there's comprehensive and collision coverage or personal injury protection. then you'll see Progressive's direct rate and their tool will provide options from other companies all lined up, ready to compare, so it's simple to choose the rate and coverage that you like.

So press play on comparing auto rates, quote at Progressive.com, to join the over 27 million drivers who trust Progressive. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliates, comparison rates not available in all states or situations, prices vary based on how you buy. I mean, Clayton, for somebody, you know, you're so incredibly passionate about mental health and people's mental health. Are you able or do you think you'll be able to get to a point where those, when those people are saying something to you that you can maybe look at it from a point of like being compassionate and say something is mentally wrong with this person who's saying these nasty things to me and then hold a different space for trolls? because Susie and I think, and let me tell you this took me a long time to get here. The clapback for me is so fun, but sometimes I actually have to be like, shit, that person's probably like not well. I know.

And so I don't want to like, you know, like bully them. But at the same time, sometimes they make it so easy. But I wonder if you could get to a place where you can look at a troll and be like, I actually have a lot of empathy for them because they're clearly struggling so much in their life that they need to be so miserable over a fucking season of The Bachelor. Like, do you think you could get to that point? Yeah, and I think I'm almost at that point. I've realized from this experience, it's like, what did I learn?

One of the biggest things is like my weaknesses came to the forefront from the show. I was a people pleaser. I cared too much about others thought. And this is like, this is a whole other discussion. And when I talk about a lot of my speeches that I give, this stems from childhood, this feeling of not ever feeling good enough. I also want to let you know how great it is that you're a year out and already having this kind of clarity because a lot of people wouldn't. And it's such a beautiful thing to have, it's messy at the time, but it's such a beautiful thing to have all of your insecurities brought to the surface and be like, holy crap, I have a lot of healing to do. Because think of like 10 years from now. 10 years from now, you both will look back on that experience and be like, thank God that happened. And that, We went through all this crazy thing because you would have went through your whole life,

probably continued to bury certain things or not acknowledge certain things or repress certain feelings. I thought I'd healed so much before I went on that show. And then as we all know, it takes you out at the knees again. And then had to build myself back up. And I had to do like going into my child like self kind of therapy and like heal a lot of wounds. And I was like, oh, I would have never done that if it wasn't for everything that I had gone through. So the fact that you can both have, you know, Susie, you're so you're even, you're just,

younger than I ever was on the show. And to have the kind of awareness that you both have for your mental health and to do the healing and to get to where you need to be, to be better partners, like, I hope you give yourselves credit for that. Yeah, no, I think you said it really well. I think it takes time to heal. And I had no business being the bachelor with the person that I was then. And I think, like, unfortunately, I'm like, yeah, if the person I was now would have handled things a hundred times better, but to your point, so much growth, I tell everybody, I got five years of growth packed into a year, maybe even 10 years of growth packed in two years. Some of these things I would have never addressed, my shortcomings and weaknesses never would

have come to light. I wouldn't have been held accountable if I didn't, if I wasn't placed in a spotlight where everyone could see every single corner of who I was, every piece of me. So, but it's like, I do think it all happens for a reason. I think I wouldn't have been able to get through what I got through with anybody other than Susie. Like she was the only person that was going to help me see what I saw. And she was the only person that was going to keep me from going off the rails and doing something extremely drastic because I had very dark thoughts from the show. And like moments where I said, I should just, you know, it'd be better off.

I just ended things. Yeah. And the fact that I had her with me as I was thinking that, I'm like, what if I didn't have her? You know, where would I have been then? So. Yeah, you both are just on like the right path. I say this all the time. I've said it to you guys.

Everyone on my podcast is like, shut up, you broken record. It's like the biggest time to heal in your life is 29. Like going into your 30s with the kind of knowledge that you guys are going to have about yourselves and who you are and what you want out of life is going to make for like the most, 30s are already the most beautiful years of my whole life. And to go on the path that you're both on right now of this self-love journey and like going

through rock bottom to like where you're at. and seeing that like you can get through anything it's so freaking it's incredible and I'm just like I'm excited to see where you both go from here and I always say and you know it um as much as I support the franchise in certain things it does not provide a healthy foundation for relationships at all so what advice would you give you know the next lead Zach um or any future leads in their final rows gabby and Eric for going through this roller coaster that you both have experienced As soon as you want to take this one.

Oh my gosh. Yeah. That's a hard. I think it's a hard one. Yeah. There's no perfect way to do it. So I think just, yeah, like prioritizing each of your mental health, prioritizing your relationship and your joy and your happiness, like those things are so important.

And yeah, don't lose side of like who you are and what you want to do. I think that's so important and you can get so caught up in things and like, you know, the internet, your phone can bring you so much on happiness if you want it to, but there's so much life to live out there. So, you know, there's no easy way to do it and to navigate it. Just, I guess, try to, you know, have your priorities straight. And, and, like, ultimately what Clayton and I are doing, I really believe is for the best. And if that's what it takes, like, don't ever let.

public pressure of staying together or breaking up, determine what you're supposed to do. Like, you've got to do what is right for you always. Especially as you navigate this environment, any couple going forward. It's like, do what you feels best. And if you've found the right person, they'll support you through it no matter what. Yeah. So live your life of yourself. Even if you don't find the right person, like I feel like you two have supported each other,

you know, in certain ways. And like, I believe that Clayton, you just spoke before this about what, you know, you're taking away from Susie and the relationship and how she supported you and how, you know, you're going to continue to do your passions. Susie, what do you think you took away from this relationship? I think that I really was forced to learn how to communicate my feelings and my needs a lot more than I ever had before. Like, that's something that I've kind of learned in this relationship where like, I need to be more up front with my needs and like my expectations in like Clayton in a really positive way like we've we've had some

really tough conversations and kind of like what we were saying at the beginning I don't know if it was when we had started recording or not but when he was saying like we would have these like three hour long conversations and then finally we would like get to the root of something and I think going through a lot of that it forced me to develop like really a lot more clear communication based on like what I'm feeling and how to verbalize it and what I'm experiencing needing and how to communicate that effectively to a partner. So I think that I'm going to walk away with like just better communication and also knowing what I need, you know, like knowing where my needs. Yeah, more clarity for myself. And yeah, and I think that when it comes to like a

partner, we've both kind of experienced like in this relationship, like both. of us have brought a lot to the table in different ways. But there's also been areas where like our expectations or our needs weren't met. So I think like both of us having that clarity of like this is what we really want and this is what we don't want. Like I think we both have clarity on both of those spectrums. So, you know, whether it is we rekindle down the road, we know what our expectations are of each other and ourselves or if it's with somebody else. Like I have clarity on that as well. I feel like ending this podcast, I'm like, I feel more closure. Like I feel better. But I think it's just I'm just so grateful for you both coming on and

talking about that so openly because that is a really hard thing to do. But I think it goes a long way for especially for you too with because you have been so open and honest about your struggles and your relationship this whole time. I think it's, you know, people. would expect you to just have an open honest conversation about it now. And hopefully it can make them leave you alone a little bit too in that way. But I just, I appreciate you both coming on and being so vulnerable with me today. Because vulnerability, you know how much I love that. Yeah. I was going to say, like, I just want to say thank you to you. Like, I know we said it last time too, but like you truly have been, and I'm going to get emotional.

again because I just feel like this is really hard like everything that we've been through it's hard for anybody coming off the show I think even people that go home early it's like a blow to your self-esteem it's like all of the experience like you just put yourself out there for the world to judge and and they do it's a hard thing so coming out of it like we both had individual struggles we had you know a struggle as a relationship but like you've always been somebody that has been so supportive of you know our mental health as individuals but also supporting us as a couple or separate like I and I know how much like you have helped Clayton as well go through like this the deep struggles that he was going through so I truly can't

thank you enough and like I can't imagine doing this anywhere else but on your pocket I mean that was the thing is we didn't want to we didn't want to go have separate interviews like we just were like let's show that like we're an open book but we're not going to go talk crap on each other anywhere like we want we want to show that this is love you i i love that and thank you for saying all those kind things i just you know you can when people come off the show you can really find the good ones and the real ones and the people you want to be there for and you two are both people that i'm just like oh i just i've been there it's always going to be different for each situation but i can just relate to the the stress and the the you know hate and all of those things and i just there's people i

believe in when they come off the show. And even if that doesn't mean as a couple, just individually, I believe in both of you. And so I really, really care about both of you and your, you know, mental health and you're going forward to what you're going to do. And I'm just here to support no matter what. Yeah. Thank you so much. I can also, yeah, reiterate how much. It's been great. How much you reached out. I didn't think that I would be able to find someone that was going to understand. Obviously, very few of us that went through it. So, like, you reached out and checked in so many times and so many times it just made me feel again not alone which is the biggest thing as people navigate through all this is they just if you're ever in a place where you don't know like how to

proceed forward because you've never experienced it that that's when it's important like great to have individuals that have went through it before and I think you have a incredible understanding of it all so I would also say thank you so much because yeah we felt very comfortable I mean I'm still like this is I was extremely uncomfortable coming on this particular conversation topic you know talking about it today because I'm like we are still healing I still don't know if my mind that won't change tomorrow. Like, I'm in this fluid state. So I'm scared, you know, of what, you know, tomorrow holds and what I'm going to be thinking of.

But I do feel that, like, this is the most important thing was for people to understand that this is not cut and dry. This wasn't simple. This wasn't like a business relationship. This was a very, very loving relationship where, like, we support each other and we, but we just have to, you know, we're, we don't even know. Like, maybe this is what's best. Maybe it's not. And time will be the only thing that we'll tell. so sadly yes time is the only thing which is the hardest part because i'm a very impatient person

but um time you're you know everybody everybody is uh able to have the benefit of hindsight when you get there and um i'm just rooting for both of you so thank you and whatever happens next in your life i'm here to support yeah thanks so much taylor thank you i'm kately bristow and i'll see you next Tuesday. Thanks for listening to this week's episode of Off the Vine. Don't forget to rate, review, and follow on your favorite podcast platform. And we'll see you next Tuesday. I just casually looked towards a canal and I saw what I thought was a mannequin.

August 2nd, 1998, the body of a brilliant young scientist is found dead near the campus. of Georgetown University. It was a gruesome scene. Walking up to the body, it became apparent that there had been a sexual assault. For more than six years, D.C. police had no leads and no suspects. Then another disturbing discovery. She wasn't his only victim. As these cases went on, the more the victims resisted, the more violent he became. One man committing a series of heinous crimes against women, but then he just stops. Ten years go by. Then, 20 years. money, what would it take to finally crack the case wide open? I'm Paul Wagner. Join me for Unknown Subject, Season 3 of WTOP's American Nightmare

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