Off The Vine with Kaitlyn Bristowe - Clea Shearer | Cancer Is Complicated: Lessons, Setbacks, and Finding Purpose!

Episode Date: September 23, 2025

#878. Clea Shearer, co-founder of The Home Edit and breast cancer survivor, is back on the podcast for a deeply personal conversation you won’t forget. She opens up about the moments that tested her strength — including a recent implant scare that felt like starting over — and the realities of treatment, recovery, and the anxiety that comes after.Clea shares how she navigated these challenges while raising her kids, how she found purpose in her journey, and the lessons she’s learned about listening to your body, advocating for yourself, and embracing life’s most difficult moments.Her new book, Cancer Is Complicated: And Other Unexpected Lessons I’ve Learned, is out today. Listen to this episode now to feel inspired — whether you’ve faced cancer or are just looking for a story of courage, hope, and perseverance, Clea’s journey will remind you to embrace life’s challenges and find meaning in the moments that matter most.If you’re LOVING this podcast, please follow and leave a rating and review below! PLUS, FOLLOW OUR PODCAST INSTAGRAM HERE!Thank you to our Sponsors! Check out these deals!Booking.com: Booking dot YEAH! Find exactly what you’re booking for. Book today on the site or in the app.Paka: To grab your PAKA hoodie and free pair of alpaca crew socks, head to GO.PAKAAPPAREL.COM/OTV and use my code OTV. Better Help: Off the vine listeners get 10% off their first month at betterhelp.com/vineReal Real: Get $25 off your first purchase when you go to TheRealReal.com/vine.Quince: Go to QUINCE.com/vine for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns.Audible: Your first great love story is free when you sign up for a free 30-day trial at Audible.com/vine.EPISODE HIGHLIGHTS: 8:06 – Chemo vs. radiation: the difference and what they do to your body.16:10 – How cancer changed the way Clea sees herself.28:30 – High-functioning women miss the signs: Clea’s advice to slow down!40:28 – The heartbreaking and powerful way Clea told her kids about her cancer.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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You're listening to Off the Vine with Caitlin Bristow. Hey, Vino's real quick. If you are listening right now, which obviously you are or you wouldn't be hearing this, can you hit the subscribe or follow button on whatever platform you're on? Please, that one simple thing helps more than you even realize it allows me to keep growing on this podcast and making these episodes the best they can possibly be obviously for That's the only favorite I'm going to ever ask, okay? It truly means the world to me. Thank you.

Now, let's get into it. Hey, everybody. Welcome to Off the Vine podcast. I'm your host, Caitlin Brissot. And today on the show, we have the incredible Clea Shearer, who I love so much. She is co-founder of the Home Edit. She's New York Times best-selling author. Emmy nominated?

Did you know that? Yeah, Netflix star, wife, mom, and breast cancer survivor. And her new book, Cancer is Complicated. It's out today, September 23rd. We dive into all things about her journey, her strength. All the setbacks. has had to go through and what kind of outlook she has moving forward. So enjoy my conversation with Clea. You have such a wonderful spirit and energy. It's just amazing. And I don't know if,

I mean, I feel like you're so comfortable talking about so many things. So I don't know if we can edit the set if you don't, but you got your drains out today. Like an hour ago. And you were like, I'm a new woman. I feel so good. And I'm like, I feel sorry for myself sometimes if I don't get like eight hours of sleep. I haven't slept in almost four weeks. What the heck? It's drains. Okay, so let me just say through, I've had drains many times. And everyone who goes through like a double mastectomy or anything like that, they get drains. And they're always afraid of drains because everyone says it's so awful.

And I always counsel them that like, it's not that bad. Is it annoying? Yes. But it's like, okay. Well, I take that back because three and a half weeks later, actual trauma. Hey, hey, Kate, worst thing in the world, do not recommend. If you get them out in like, you know, five to seven days. right it's fine it doesn't you're once and you're you know never have to do again and you're still

recovering enough in that moment that like i'm not even trying to put shirts over my head so like you know what i mean it's fine yeah i'm like in PJs yeah this was an actual nightmare oh and why this time i just had so this surgery was a really big surgery yeah and it started in my back and they there's like a shark bite basically right now in my back that car that curves up through my side, through my armpit to my breast. And they like tunnel muscle and fat and tissue to rebuild my right breast. Very big surgery, very long recovery, very painful. Wow. And because it has to do with the back muscle, I had a drain for my breast and a drain for my back. And the back just produced a lot of big muscle. Because I would never try and relate my journey

to yours in any way, but I got breast implants. I have one. Well, I had drains. And then I heard that, yeah, one of your implants leaked? I've had several problems. I've lost my implant and my right breast. I've lost it now three times. Oh my gosh. And so this last time

I had my surgery, they put in the implant and the next day, I was like bleeding out and it was really bad. Like I was, my drains were like full, full and I was even beyond that I was like bleeding through the bed. So I went back to the doctor and they were like, don't even pack a bag.

You need to go right to the ER. We'll get you into surgery right now. And it was like dangerous basically because I had a hematoma in my back and it was bulge, like fluid collection and everything. From the implant or from something else? They think that the implant was congested and like being rejected by my body. Whoa. So I went back in the next day, not the next day from my first surgery.

I had to go back into emergency surgery and they, took out the implant and put in an expander so i'm now going to have several months of just an expander in and then once i'm healed they'll try and implant again but it's like i mean i've just had so many problems it's it feels like every time i see it on instagram something i'm like why i cannot catch a break you can't i cannot it like that's why i'm so i'm just so impressed by you with sharing your journey even just showing up here today like I in just the way you show up like the way you show up online in person like you you just always have this like I don't want to sound cheesy and say sparkle about you but you

do when I feel like something like that would probably take away that for a lot of people but you just still have it a couple of days ago I was pretty rough fair I was gonna say it's probably you can have your days please for the love of God you'd be a robotic yeah I'm just like I hit a wall where I was like I am so like of this well yeah I I mean, it's every time I see something, I think the same thing for you. Like, she cannot catch a break. And it's just like, you've said it felt like being thrown right back at square one when this happened because you're like, what is next?

What's going to happen? Well, I also never thought I would have an expander again. And it mentally and physically took me back to the very beginning where I had expanders in for 20 months. What is an expander for somebody who doesn't know like me? An expander is before you can get an implant. Like, I couldn't, after my double mastectomy, I could not go directly. direct to implant because I was going to need radiation.

Okay. And radiated skin is extremely difficult to work with. And one of the reasons why I have so many problems. Got it. The radiation really messed me up. Yeah. I have an inch and a half thick of scar tissue all the way around my casing. For this last surgery in order to put the implant in that they then had to take out,

usually apparently they can just like cut through. They had to use a chisel. Holy shit. Yeah. Like absolute like granite. So, again, I've just had everything, but basically what happens if they can't put an implant in, what they do is put, okay, this is my imagination of what's in my body right now, so bear with me. I imagine like a deflated volleyball or like a small little deflated, you know, I don't know,

softball or something. Like the Pilates ball. Exactly. Like just a deflated ball. And slowly, so like once a week or something, they'll inject a certain amount of Cs, of saline into it to literally start to expand because you need your skin to be expanded. You need the cavity ready for an implant. You can't just like pop it in once the skin's all tight.

Right. So this is like the least medical way to describe this. Okay. So like I literally do picture a yoga ball in my body. Yeah. And so if they need to get up to like 300 ccs or 350 or whatever it is, they'll do like 50 a week. And so I'm currently in the expander phase, but I thought I'm telling you,

The reason why I had my expanders in so long the first time is I had them all through treatment because they put it in right at the beginning when I got my adult mastectomy. And then I had to wait a year following radiation to get my reconstruction because of that radiated skin. It's so hard to work with. So, yeah, full 20 months of expanders, which is just all. Like, I can't. And they hurt, you know, like it's not fun.

Yeah, no. I can only imagine that's because I'm trying to, I'm learning so much new stuff. So my dad has, my stepdad has been diagnosed with stage four colon cancer. He started there and then it went to his stomach. And so I'm learning that, like I didn't even know the difference between radiation and chemo. Yeah. I didn't either, by the way. Okay.

So that's, I don't think most people do. Yeah. So did you have to do both? Yes. And so let me just explain for people who, because I don't think, I think we know the terms. Right. But what is the actual difference? I felt dumb.

And then I went, well, I don't know if a lot of people. people don't know that. I think it's a very normal thing to not know. And people are like, you do one or you do both. But like, I don't think anyone's like, I never had asked the question, what is the actual difference of what it does. Yeah. So chemo is if you have cancer cells that have now floated through your body. Like for me, my cancer moved to my lymph nodes. And once it's in the lymphatic system, again, this is all in my head of what it looks like. But I picture just like a little mini fan, you know, in my armpit. And once it gets in that funnel, of a fan. Now I have cancer cells dispersed through my body. And so chemo attacks all of that.

It goes through your entire body and literally just kills like everything in sight, which is why it also kills good things. That's why you lose your hair. It's, you know, it really attacks your entire body. And radiation is localized and with a literal laser attacks where your tumors were to eradicate like any little shred. So chemo is like the full body experience and radiation is to really get into that single area. And do you have to be on chemo now for the rest of your life? No, I don't. Oh, okay. But I am on oral chemo. Yeah. And I take other drugs as well that I will be on for at least 10 years. Wow. I just already know that like the second the 10 year mark comes, they're going to be like, okay, so let's talk about the next 10 years.

Right. And maybe I'm making that up in my head, but I just can't imagine it ever ending. I truly am in in a place where I'm just like, in some ways I'm okay with that because when you're off of those drugs, I think is when it really gets scary because you're like, am I going to be okay? I think that, you know, there's like a weird Stockholm syndrome that happens with my, I had two, actually I had three different chemo drugs that I was on, so different kind of cycles. And the last cycle I had, it was the chemo itself was making it so that I wasn't producing blood cells like white and red and my doctor after on my seventh chemo session out of 12 for that one drug my doctor called because every time you go into chemo they give you a blood panel

right before to make sure that you are healthy enough to make sure you have enough like white blood cells to actually stay alive and like you know attack it and he called me and I was like oh my god I'm like in the chemo chair and he was like I think we have to call it he's like I don't think your body can take any more chemo. And at first, I was like, you thought the drains out were exciting? Imagine if someone's like, you're done with chemo six weeks early. Right. You know, I was, ecstatic doesn't even cover it.

And then I was scared. Yeah. Because I was like, what if I didn't get enough? Right. What if I didn't do enough? Right. And he was like, look, you know, 12 rounds of taxol, which is one of the drugs that I did, 12 rounds of this drug is like standard care, but in some ways it's an arbitrary number.

You know, like there isn't science to say it's 12 rounds or nothing, you know, it's, so it's kind of like this is what medical practice like suggests and we follow that. But he's like, you know, you've had a lot of chemo. There's no reason to think that you're not, that you haven't gotten enough. We don't know is the truth. But like, you know, he said at this point, your body is in danger of not producing blood cells anymore. And that risk is more important than the potential benefit of more chemo. Yeah, because that's, I'm even thinking my stepdad has diverticulitis and the chemo pills were making him have attacks with that.

And then he can't like go in the sun because of the skin and all the stuff that comes with it. And I'm just like when you, there's even through his like the last few months that he's known this, so many ups and down. sounds hope and setbacks but like I again I just I think of you all the time and I go how do you process these setbacks when you think you're finally past the hardest part well let me tell you I this last round did me in yep like mentally I so I was like okay I've been preparing for this flap it's called the latiss dorsi muscle so it's some people call it flap surgery it's known by a bunch of different things but basically they cut into your back to rebuild your chest is the easy way to describe it.

And I had known this was coming. I had a lot of complications with my implant. Previously, I had incisions open. I had infections. I, in April, they basically had to take it all out and I had to go flat until three weeks ago. And by the way, when I say flat, it's not like flat, like a man is flat. Right. It's concave.

They scoop out everything and you literally, you're just like your chest becomes a bowl. And it's really hard. It's hard to look at. It's hard to feel. It's hard to everything. And so I've had so many setbacks. And I really thought this surgery is going to fix all of these problems I've had. And it's a big surgery and it's a huge commitment.

But I'm like, I have faith that this is going to work. And then to find out the next day it already hadn't worked, I was, I cried hard in the hospital. And let me tell you. throughout my entire cancer journey for three and a half years, I have sobbed probably I could count it on one hand. No way. I cry for you. Yeah, I really, I have tried really hard to just be like,

you know what, it's a notch in the belt. It's like this is a journey. It's not going to be over like that. And some people are lucky with that experience. I have not been in that camp. And, but this last time, I just sobbed. And I was like, when am I going to catch a break? and I think that that's fine.

You know, there's no shame in falling apart. No shame at all. In fact, like, please do it more. I feel like I only see that because I fall apart a lot. And I feel like it helps me get back when I let it out. Sometimes it does. A hundred percent. And so let me say this.

I haven't suppressed anything. Oh, great. You know, it's not like I'm like, you can't cry or fighting back tears. I don't fight back tears. Are you kidding? The second tears come to my eyes. I'm like, let's go. Okay.

Let's go. Great. So I'm not suppressing anything. But I truly believe the reason why I haven't fallen apart that much, I mean, certainly at the beginning. Yeah. And then I had moments throughout chemo. Yes.

I've had a few just full come apart. But I truly believed I have a North Star, which number one is I believe that my cancer is purposeful, that I was actually like put here on this earth to experience this and try and help as many people as I can through it. It's like a privilege and an honor to be able to be that connection to people. And so for me, whenever I have a setback, I'm like, I put all of my energy into trying to explain it and trying to like write about it and talk about it and be like, look, these things happen.

Look at me. I'm still thriving. I'm still able to make it. And so that to me is like where I always focus. but sometimes it's just too much. Yeah, well, yes, of course. And this last time was like, it was just too much. Too much.

It was too much. Yeah, I broke. I truly think I did cry when I saw. I'm very sensitive. And I just was, I just felt so defeated for you because I was like, no. And I like, I feel like we're friends. And I feel like. We are friends.

I want to. I feel like we're friends. Excuse me. Well, I want to. I feel like I feel like. I'm like, I wanted to, like, call you and, like, I just don't, I know, like, some people get very easily overwhelmed, which I don't think you do. But I just think about so many things that happens in, like, even like you said, with, it's hard to look at. Like, how, because I suffer from body

dysmorphia when nothing's, oh, all the time, you know? And so to go through, does it make you have a different outlook on just like that kind of thing, too? Like, how does this whole experience affected how you look at your body? Well, it's interesting because there have been, in times of deep self-loathing. Like, at one point in chemo, I say in my book that I felt like I looked like Charlotte's husband Harry from Sex and the City, just like fat and bald. And I, which is funny now because Kristen Davis is my friend. And I'm like, oh, guess what?

There's a reference to you in this book. It's a weird one. It's a weird one. That's funny. I've had deep self-loathing at one point through chemo when I was really at my worst. like no eyebrows, no eyelashes, bald. Do you know the kid's character, Kayu? Yeah, of course.

Really annoying kid. But anyway, I look, annoying, spoiled right. Yeah, really annoying. But I looked like Kayu. And I kind of accused my husband of thinking that too, you know? And I was like, because he was like, no, you're beautiful. And I was like, but I'm physically not right now. Like I can see myself in the mirror.

And it's weird because it was really the only tension we had throughout all this. John is an actual saint and took care of me and still does and is with me at every single doctor visit, every appointment, everything. And he was like, can't you believe that I can just like see through this temporary moment? Yeah. And I really couldn't see it. I couldn't get past it. And so that was a really low moment for me.

Wow. Yeah. And then when I thought with my implants and reconstruction that I was past that point, I had like lost the steroid weight. I had my hair grow back. I mean, it's not fully back and it's, you know, deep gray, but whatever. And so, you know, it's fine. I'm like, I have hair.

I actually love the color on you. You know what? I've learned to love it too. I'm like, let's go silver. Yeah. It's fine. You know what I mean? It's like a statement piece.

Yeah. But when my implant got taken out, the thought of the trauma of, and I cried so hard before it happened, the trauma of losing my breast again was, that was one of the moments where I was like, this is too much to mentally and physically bear. And again, I didn't even know what it was going to look like. I would have cried a lot more had I actually been able to understand that I'd be inward. But the complexity of trying to stay positive and know that, like, I don't want to fall apart for my kids. I don't want to fall apart for people who count on me for even public people or the public not public people for you know my followers everything like

i don't want to be a beacon of despair right you know but those physical moments i'm sorry like it is if you can't get dressed and look like a you know if you if you're at risk of like embarrassing your kids by just wearing a t-shirt because you have one boob and one not it's just it's a it's a mental load that's really, really hard. And the physicality of it, you know, I think that it's like it's unfair for us to feel like that's like a vain thing. You know what I mean? It's not. It's like, and people now, even now, are like, why go through all this? Why not just go flat? And it's like, you know what? I deserve, if I want, I deserve to try and put my body back together. Totally. And it's not for everyone, but it's for me. And the ups and downs with it are really hard.

you know breast cancer takes your femininity you know it makes you flat takes your hair breast cancer also is like the only cancer where you gain weight not lose it so that's also very cool and you know it just is like I deserve to try and get that back because it was lost and it it was really hard yeah you absolutely deserve it my girlfriend who do you know katie thurston yes yeah I talk to her I mean we message and stuff yeah I bet I feel like you both are taking it as a purpose. Yeah. And you're getting knowledgeable about it and you're sharing and you're building community

because, I mean, breast cancer, I don't know the stats, but it feels like, one and eight women. Yeah. So to write everything down in a book, I feel like it's so helpful for not just you like therapeutically, but so many people out there who are either scared of getting it, have it. whatever stage they're at because didn't you say it's not just for people with absolutely i want if you're like a caregiver or like your best friend has cancer or something i think that this book is gives you an insight into like what it's like at least what my journey was like and i try and make it as universal in a lot of ways as possible because i understand that my experiences you know everyone has

a different individual experience but i think that there's a lot to take and you know and i i wrote it the way I sound. Like, I don't, I didn't write it in like an author. I always say I didn't write it in an authorly way and everyone's like, well, you have a few New York Times bestselling books. Like, I think it's okay. I think it's okay to now just call yourself an author, you know, but I'm like, I didn't write it like an author. But I wrote it like the way I talk because I wanted it to sound like a friend. Yes. And I wanted, you know, I was so fortunate and unfortunate, I suppose, to have so many people that I could turn to. Yeah. And I don't know if everyone has that. And I was like, I'll, I'll be that person, you know, to try and provide some comfort and to explain detailed things that

happened that maybe they're like, oh, gosh, well, thank God, that's normal or, you know, not everyone has resources. This episode of Off the Vine is brought to you by booking.com. Booking. Dot yeah. I never sound as cool as a guy who does it in the actual commercials. But here's the thing. I am particular when it comes to where I stay. I really am. I need a bathroom with good lighting because if I can't see what I'm doing while getting ready. It's a disaster. I'm dramatic, okay, and it's a disaster. And I need a big, cozy bed that I can sprawl out on at the end of the night. It's a non-negotiable for me. And the good news is booking.com has me totally covered. From vacation rentals to hotels

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So it comes out today. Cancer is complicated. It seems just so raw and honest. And like you said, you're sharing so many details. Did you ever hesitate about sharing so many deeply personal stories? No. Not for a minute.

Yeah. I, again, it was my North Star. Yeah. And it really helped actually get me through. People were like, how do you stay so positive? I'm like, first of all, I don't always. But it's not about being positive. It's about, I'm like the least toxicly positive human being there is. But for me, the purpose pushed me through. So it wasn't like I'm just like trying to be optimistic and positive. It was just like, this counts for something. Even if it's hard, it counts for something. And someone might feel less alone. Someone might be like, well, shoot, I can get through that. Or who knows? I mean, whatever, however people relate to it, I just felt like being brutally honest is the only way to go. It's just the only answer. And holding things back, it doesn't help me.

It doesn't help anyone else. No. And so I'm really, really proud of the book in a way that is so weird because I don't think I've ever been so personally proud of something I've done. I mean, of course, the company that Joanna and I built, the home at it. But I don't know, this is so deeply personal and I've never done anything like this before. Yeah. I mean, it feels like the book itself seems like you're just like cracked open and you're like,

this is, that's what I mean when I say raw. Like it's just, it's deeply personal like you said. And I feel like that does help people because I even see it in like the silly ways. Like when somebody's just raw and honest on social media, it makes me feel less alone about a silly thing. I agree. I agree. And that's also, that's where I started, obviously. Before I wrote a book, I was like, I'm just going to document everything on social. And I had such a huge response to that. People every day stop me, either because they're a survivor, they're in treatment, their mom has breast cancer.

Everyone knows someone. Everyone knows someone. And I have been told so many times that I helped. And I'm like, God, what a gift that is. So again, it makes every up and down, every setback, it still makes it purposeful to me. And so sharing on social was just like a decision that I made right away. Although I will say I announced I had cancer the day before my double mastectomy where I then went into like a drug-induced haze in a hospital for, you know, 24 hours. And so I woke up to, you know, a hundred billion messages DM. So if anyone's out there thinking that they want to win, maybe do it while you're lucid. You know, like, do it while you have some time to maybe reply to people.

Right. I really like threw that out there and then went right on. You also had a huge community before, you know, you know, so it's like you already had built such a, I feel like, loyal following too, where people really cared about you. I can't believe it. I know, I'm like, are you sure you care about me? But it was just so interesting, though, I didn't know that people were, the sound, so belittling, but I didn't know that people were really going to care about me personally.

Oh, you know, like we, we have this company and we've always shared, not even just work-related things. We share our personal lives for sure, but like not the raw, deeply emotional, you know, side. Yeah. And wow, what a shock it was. Still is, honestly, the people care. That's that thing about you though, where I feel like you've just got this, I don't know, there's a lot of people out there you know, that would care about other people in their journey, but I don't know, there's something special about you. Oh, well, that's very nice. I don't know. I appreciate that. I really, I really mean that. Maybe they just feel bad for me because I'm just like, God, I can't. I mean, that too. Nobody really wants to be pitied, but like, I do feel that people are like, why can't she catch a

break? And I know, I know you also wrote about the way high functioning women can miss symptoms because we've pushed through everything. We are taught to show up to work sick. Yeah. We are taught to, in pain. I mean, think about the things that we push our bodies through, pregnancies and all of it. And we just show up. We just do the work. And this really, sometimes I think this was a sign for me and I hope I can be a sign for other people that slowing down sometimes is really necessary. Listening to your body is key. Prioritizing your health. I mean, that's one of the biggest things that I advocate for. We need to prioritize our health over our busy schedules. Yeah.

And, you know, one of my favorite things that someone said recently is we all have a million problems until we have a health crisis and then we have one problem. And we have nothing if we aren't healthy and able to live our lives. What difference is work? What difference is travel? What difference is any of it if we can't do it? Right. You know, so I like beg anyone who will ever listen to me to just listen to the signs of

your body. And also, if something doesn't feel right, if it's, you need to advocate for yourself and, like, speak up. Like, no one's going to know what's happening, you know? And I think that we go far too long, too, without being like, hey, this is wrong. Yeah, I feel like in the States, especially because I'm Canadian. And I'm like, we just go because we don't have to worry about the bills. Right. Where you guys, I feel like people stay home and push through pain also because they can't afford it.

Well, medical costs. Oh, my God. Don't even get me started on that. I can't imagine. The amount of people that, you know, I've been connected with and everything who've lost their home because of medical bills. For sure. You know, I mean, like, it's unbelievable.

And I think a lot of people, there are a whole contingent of people who refuse chemo. And it's not only because they don't want to go through it, they can't afford it. Yeah. It's really, really horrible. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. You know how sometimes you'll unload all your problems on your mom or your best friend or maybe even your dogs. That's the thing.

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lowercase. I wanted to know if you could go back to yourself on March 8th, 2022. The day that you were diagnosed, what would you tell her? I would tell myself while I was sitting, crying uncontrollably, in a waiting room, the hospital was closing at that point. I'd been there all day. And the lights were being literally shut off around me. and I felt like it was a symbolic of the way the rest of my life was going to go,

that I was just going to be scared and mentally alone, not physically alone. I have a wonderful, wonderful family, but I felt alone and frightened and scared in my own body and the lights were shutting off around me. And I would tell myself at that moment, everything, the things that I'm most afraid of, which by the way was not dying, I 100% was like, oh, I'm going to kick this to the curb. I believed that.

I just didn't know how I was physically and mentally going to make it through. You know, like I believed I could crush cancer. I didn't know how I was going to handle myself, to be honest. And I would go back and say, I need you to know that you will actually through this journey have more good days than bad days. Your good days will far outnumber the bad days. If I had known that, I think I would have been able to gather myself more because I was so afraid of losing the quality of my life and being bedwritten and not seeing friends.

and not being able to go anywhere. And that's just, that wasn't true for me. I mean, yeah, the fear of unknown is the scariest part of life. And when you get something, that kind of news. It changes everything. It changes everything. Like, yeah, the fear of unknown is, I can't even imagine. You know, I also want to say, I say it in the book, and I have said it many times,

Hollywood has not done us a favor with the way they portray cancer. Like, you're either in movies or TV, you're sitting in like a metal cold chair attached to an IV in a room of other patients attached to an IV and everything's gray and dark blue and the patients are always bald or wearing a scarf or something or they're throwing up. Yeah. So like that is not the overall experience you will necessarily have. Yeah.

And I just am like, God, they make it, they show the absolute worst moments. And I'm not saying that those moments don't exist. I'm just saying there's a life outside of that too. Right. And that's good. That's, I feel like for people who are maybe going through it or know someone who is going through it, that gives me like a little piece. Are it does everyone have that experience?

Absolutely not. There are people who are, they find out at the end of their life that they, you know, like it is not universal at all. But I think that the majority of people in treatment, they have plenty of, of normalcy. They have plenty of good moments of moments where you're just laughing. moments where you honestly can maybe even put it, tuck away in your pocket for a minute, you know? Yeah. It's always there. It's, you know, ever present. But I just, I was, I was shocked that

I was able to laugh and smile and go out to eat and have friends come over and all of those things. You know, I was, I didn't know that that was going to be the case. And I'm not saying that that is the case for everyone. I'm just saying in my experience, which is all I can document. That was true. Those two, that's why I say the book. cancer is complicated. That duality exists throughout the journey. And look at Katie. You know, she's out there still living her life. And, and I mean, it's, I think that it's totally possible and doable. And I wish more people knew that. Yeah. No, that's, that's nice to hear. I think about Katie with that often. I'm like, she always says, like, people say, oh, my God, isn't it so scary you're dying?

She goes, you're dying too. We're all dying. Yeah, we're all going somewhere. Yeah. I was like, wow, that's a good outlook, I guess. But oh, my gosh. Let's talk about your support system and parenting through it all because also you're clearly a mom. And I feel like one of the most powerful parts of your book is how you talk about walking your kids through the experience. That was a hard one. I can't imagine that. That was a hard one.

Like, how do you do that? Well, I have a section in the book about things to potentially say to your kids, if you, to your kids. you need that assistance because I felt like, oh my God, what am I going to say that won't traumatize them, that will be honest, that will, you know, make them not totally scared of the situation. So I have a bunch of kind of thought starters and suggestions for that. But for me, I decided I was going to tell my kids right before my surgery. I didn't want them to have the fear and burden for like weeks that this was going to be happening. It didn't seem like that would benefit them at all. And I wanted to also have as many facts as possible when I did sit them down because pathology

ends up coming back and you start in then your treatment plan kind of comes together. And there was just no point in me kind of throwing it in their lap. And that, you know, my kids at that age, they were eight and 11. It's young, you know. So I decided to go for a couple things. Number one, absolute honesty. I am not going to be like, mommy has a boo-boo. You know, like that wasn't going to happen. Like I used the C word. You know, I was like, I have breast cancer.

I have a tumor. At that point, I thought, no, I knew it was two at that point. But I might have said tumor tumors right here. You know, I showed that I didn't like let them feel it or anything. But I was like, you know, it's right here. I'm going to go in for surgery. They're going to remove it. The best way I could relate it at the time was our,

our 14-year-old dog, Emmett, love of my life, miss him every day. He literally, just because we love dogs, but Emmett either sat in my lap or at my feet during the entire phase, during the entire year, and he passed one month after I was done. You're kidding me. Oh, I'm going to cry. I've been trying not to cry this whole time, and then you say that. Also, just as an aside, I was on a Zoom. Emmett was like for like a week was like losing function.

and everything and he collapsed behind me and I heard it and I was like telling John like you know but we had been able to get him back up before yeah not this time but he managed to walk over to my feet oh no I died at my feet I got to go are you kidding I am not that's why dogs to me like we don't we don't deserve them he literally knew that he had to stay alive for me and then it was time for him to go. Yeah. And I tell John all the time. I was like, first of all, no one will ever love me like Emmett. He's like, well, I love you. I'm like, not the same. Not the same. And I was like, you don't follow me from room to room. No. So what are you doing? Yeah. And to this day, losing Emmett, single saddest experience of my life. I've had grandparents, friends, I've had

cancer, fed all of it. Losing Emmett, worst experience of my life. Yep. But I related the fact that we had, you know, Emmett has gone through surgeries to remove lumps and things like that. And it's the same kind of experience. Mommy's going to go in. They wanted to know if I was the bold kind of cancer. And at that time, I didn't know if I would need chemo. So I said, I don't know. I don't think so, though.

Yeah. And we didn't know at that time that the cancer had spread. But so it was possible I wouldn't need you know. And the kids asked that. And, you know, I was like, do you have any questions? you can ask me. And Stella definitely cried, which made Sutton cry.

Not like convulsing crying. Like crying because this is like a very traumatic, scary thing. But she was okay. Yeah. You know? And I think that what she felt for me was the absolute, which was absolutely true, I'm not afraid.

I am not afraid. I'm not afraid of dying. Yeah. I'm not afraid of crushing this disease. Yeah. I have 100% confidence that I'm, going to be okay. Now, again, how I was going to get from A to Z, I don't know. How I was going to manage it, I don't know. But I was 100% certain I was going to get to the other side. And my doctor

told me that my cancer is not just treatable, it's curable. And I took that to the bank. I was like, well, you said it and no backsies. Yeah. No takesies back. Yep. And so I'm, so my kids, I think, felt that confidence. And I'm not saying to have fake confidence. and talking to your kids, but like really, the honesty. The honesty and really examine like, okay, if your doctor believes that this is a curable situation and even a treatable situation, you know, tell them that so, or at least feel that in yourself so that your kids, because if they know your energy, you know. That's how I feel about dogs and kids.

Yes. I feel like dogs and kids know your energy. I can literally see Pino's like, no's coming in under the door. I know. I'm like Pino knows that I need Pino. He does. Also, I mean, my kids, you know, they really rose to the occasion, which was in a shocking way. My first day of chemo, my kids wrote me or made me a card that said, don't let chemo make you emo.

And I was like, okay, I was like, we're on good footing, you know? Like, they're like, all right, they're on board. They know what's coming. And they were never embarrassed to be around me when I was sick or bald or anything like that. They were proud of me. one of my most cherished moments you talk about memories and stuff one of my most cherished memories we were at dinner as a family we were at brick tops yeah best love brick tops who doesn't love

brick tops no and um we were at brick tops and my son was just coloring on the back of a kid's menu and we were all talking and we actually were with a couple friends and we were talking and he was just drawing and they just handed me what he drew and it was he drew a lion like a circus lion and he wrote in this, you know, fanciful text, you're braver than a lion. And my eight-year-old baby was just thinking that in his head at dinner, how brave I am. I, you know, it's like, God, I don't even,

how amazing that he connects that. Yeah. To think that I'm brave. Like, I never said that to him, you know. And I was like, but I, but I showed something enough that he and his eight-year-old mind It was like, wow, my mom is braver than a lion. That's crazy. And that, to me, God, it gave me so.

In fact, it's the last page of the book, the drawing. I'm going to show you. No. Oh, my God. I put it in. I put it in because I was like. Oh, honey. I know.

My sweet little baby. And you're braver than a lion. He put little lion tails on the letters. Obsessed. Oh, God. I mean, that's that right there. Like, that's all you can hope for as a parent. As a parent.

I was like, I'm done. Yeah. That's perfect. That's great. You're sensitive. You're in touch. Yes. Yes.

You can put those two together. You know that I'm brave. You know I can get through this. I'm showing you resilience. You have resilience. Like there's so much happening in just that one photo. And my kids, there was one moment, only one, where we were at a wedding. It was dead of summer.

I was so hot. Yeah. I was so bald. Yeah. And I had a heavy wig on and a dress. And I was just, I had a hard time. doing, like, I was really physically kind of crumbling at that moment. I was on heavy steroids.

I felt awful. It was so hot. And we got home from the wedding and I, I sat down on the porch and I sobbed, like, shoulder shaking, crying. Like, that was one moment where I was like, I have had it. I'm sick of being sick. And my kids were not afraid. They, like, put their arms around me.

They were like, I think they both tried to, like, get me like a snack or something. Like, my kids are comforting me. Like, that's not like the way it should work. But in that moment, it kind of was the way it worked. And I don't know. We just, we have a deeper bond for it. I was good to say, like, it sounds like this deep understanding of one another of, like, kids are so incredible.

Like, they really are. They really are. But a lot of it, kids are incredible, period. And then a lot of it is parenting. And I, like, that must be such a proud moment too for you. Yeah. KU. How I like to paint a picture for you.

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So here's the best part. Your first great love story is free when you sign up for a free 30-day trial at audible.com slash vine. That's audible.com slash vine. kids for you for everything because yeah it really does it really does change the relationship with your family and in a good way like you know it makes you stronger and have a deeper bond and again a deeper understanding i feel like it really does change the family dynamic and my kids get it at this point you know this last surgery was my 13th yeah and um so i had my 12th and then immediately had to go back in for emergency surgery and so i was i told the kids like mommy has to go back to the hospital for more surgery and they know the drill so much that Sutton was like but you ate today

and I was like he knows medical protocol that I should be fasting you know he's like oh well that's actually not going to work because you had lunch you know I was like I was like they're going to do it anyway I don't know oh my gosh they're so like they just know well and I feel like that that really like they know that they can handle anything that comes their way in life too and they're not afraid of when I go into surgery or anything because they see me and they're like she's you know This one took a little bit out of me for sure, but I don't look sick. You know what I mean? Like, I'm like, I'm limited, but like they're not afraid.

Like, I'm not fragile in their mind, which is like great. That is great. How long have you and your husband been together? 20 years. Wow. Yeah. It'll be married for 17 in a couple of weeks. But, yeah, we've been together for 20 years.

Wow. And then that alone is so just beautiful to me. But I mean, it's probably changed your dynamic as, you know. You know, John is, as my mom said during all this, and my mom basically moved in with us for treatment. And my mom said to John, you know, John, you've always been a prince, but now you're a saint. And by the way, my mom doesn't like dole out compliments like that, okay? But it was unbelievable. Even my doctors were like, wow, your husband.

Yeah. Like he is like A plus cream of the crop. Like he, I mean, he was my biggest supporter, but also literally by my side for every minute of everything. Like even if he had to carve out in his day, like the doctors communicate with him half the time, not even me. Yeah. And because he is just, he's the caregiver. Yeah. He changes my bandages.

Yeah. Like, he's just, he's the best dad and mom. Yeah. Always, actually. That has nothing to do with surgery. that's just like that's John you know like he gets up every morning with the kids and takes him to school and lets me sleep yeah like he's just the actual best human being and yeah so I but I couldn't imagine loving him more yeah and then I did yeah and I couldn't imagine having a

closer relationship with my mom but I did yeah like I'm 43 years old I call my mom mommy you know what I'm not like I've always been so close to her but this experience will be change you. Yeah. And in some ways, that's why I also say cancer is complicated. In some ways, there's beauty that comes out of these moments. And, you know, when in my life would I ever, like, live with my mom again? You know, and in every single chemo appointment, it's crazy. But like, I would be in my chair next to me would be my mom needle pointing and John on his computer for work. And I would have my Kindle. And like, we just, we would go to lunch after. And like, it was just this, this, like, it was also a time that no one in the office could call me.

And I was like, this is, this is, this is, you're like, I want to enjoy this. Yeah. I was like, okay. I was like, this chair reclines. Like, I, you know, and, and so as awful, like the duality and the juxtaposition of this horrible, well, I don't want to say horrible, life-saving drug. Yeah. But with side effects, you know, and also it's just, it's mentally a lot to look. at the chemo being put into your body.

Yeah. I at one point, I posted this on social at one point. After many infusions, many treatments or rounds of chemo, I realized that my nurse, who had to physically administer one part of the drug, it's called the Red Devil because it's bright red. And she has to physically push that part up and then the machine does the other part. But she is sitting next to me in a full hazmat suit because of the toxicity. of the drug. She is like full everything, like gloves, full suit, mask, shoot, booties,

everything had to be covered. And here I am just out in the open, getting this put into my bloodstream. Yeah. Like that to me was just such a moment of like, wow, what, this is crazy that I am receiving this in, and I'm just sitting here reading a book and eating Fritos. And like this is being put into my body. When you can't even, like, show skin. It's crazy. And so, again, like those moments, but I would look over and I would take such comfort from my mom and John being there.

We watched a lot of the Food Network. I really like Food Network. I don't cook, but I really enjoy watching other people. I love the Food Network, too. Yeah, I love it. I'll watch any of it. Like, give me, like, you know, beat Bobby Flay or, like, guys, grocery games all day long. Just love it.

And my mom and I also watched a lot of Top Chef also love. and so I don't know again it's that duality it's like wow there's there's so much love that is poured into these moments and even though it's really scary and dark on one hand do you know one of my most embarrassing moments in life is I had a cocktail with bobby flay and I asked him if he cooked no no I was like so what you cook oh no oh my god did you not know who he was I mean I did I know that name oh my god you just didn't connect I didn't connect I just didn't. You're like, are you the one that cooks things? I like knew, because I

remember being like, ha, his last name's fillet. And I remember thinking that, but I didn't, I never watched his show specifically and he's friends with Kristen Cavalery and he was with his girlfriend and they came and met us for a drink, me and Kat

and Kristen before we went out in Miami. And his girlfriend laughed so hard because I was like, so like you cook? And he was like, yeah. A little. He was like, ha ha ha ha, because she also cooks and it was just a, I mean, it's amazing. We all deserve to be humbled. You know what I mean?

And I never mean to humble somebody. Well, sometimes I do actually. Actually, I love humbling people. What am I talking about? And you're like, actually it's my hobby. Wait, it's one of my favorite past times is humbling people, but I didn't mean to with Bobby Flay. But you know what? Sometimes it's good for just to get the wind knocked out of your sales.

Oh, totally. I think he loved it. He was, he thought I was so funny like by the end of it. He was like, who is this chick? I mean, who brought her? That's, well, I think that you and. I have a lot of that in common. I think people are always probably like, what the, who is, who is this person?

Do you know who you actually remind me? Or do people ever tell you that your like energy and who you are reminds me, reminds people of someone? I don't really feel like that, no. Christina Applegate. Okay, you know, she's my very good friend. You know what? I didn't know that, but.

You know she's on the back of this phone. Stop it. Yeah, she has a quote on the back of that. Yeah, she's like one of my, like, best friends. I didn't know that. Yeah. For a long time. Unless it was in the back of my mind and I did know that.

You probably might not have. She's not really like on social publicly. So there isn't. Well, and I went on her podcast. I did too. You did? Yeah. And I just, I always loved her and I fell way more in love with her on the podcast.

She's really. Just the most real thing. So real. She's really funny. She's so funny. She's so funny. She's dark as hell. She is.

And I just love her. I think her and Jamie Lynn are such a good pair for that podcast. I'm obsessed with both of them. I was. But Christina, my God. So Christina was my first phone call. Wow. And just sat on the phone for like four hours with her, just like sobbing.

And then while I was in surgery, it was supposed to be like a four to five hour surgery. But because they found more cancer than they thought, it was a nine-hour surgery. And she was on the phone with John for like four or five of those hours. Wow. Bless her. Just talking to him and reassuring him. But Christina's not out there to just reassure, which I love her for. She's like, let me tell you the, the, the way.

worse things, too. Yeah. Yeah. Like, she's so real. Yeah. And, yeah, we've been through a lot together. I bet. My gosh.

I mean, yeah, talk about she, she made me who cry on her podcast. I was just like, I love you. But it's not, it's not even like, yeah, there's something about even your mannerisms to me. Oh, remind me. I love it. That's like the best compliment. I can't wait to tell her. Yeah, I just tell her I really did follow more love with her on that podcast.

Well, I just want to say thank you for being always so open and vulnerable and just. Always. You really are, even in your downtime, you're alight. And I just thank you for writing this book and just for being you. I love you. CIS Origins or watch the hilarious hauntings of ghosts, all for free. Full seasons of the CBS shows you love, this month only on Pluto TV. Stream now, pay never.

I'm Justin Sylvester, and I'm Blakely Thornton. Join us for Yestergays, the podcast where we break down the most pivotal pop culture moments in history and give them the queer love that they deserve. The things that got us riled up during dial-up, those makeouts that should have been Breakouts. And the drops that were cemented in pop. I'm talking Benefer. Tyra versus Naomi.

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