Off The Vine with Kaitlyn Bristowe - Dr. Maya Shankar: Here to Change Your Mind

Episode Date: August 17, 2021

OK Vinos, get ready to put on your thinking cap and get to learning (but in a fun way, obviously). Dr. Maya Shankar is a behavioral scientist whose credentials are incredibly impressive and possibly too long to list; she even created her own job to serve in the White House… no big deal. Maya shares how a major career pivot led her to realize her true passion lies in connecting to those around her and understanding human behavior. She shares priceless advice on how to find yourself after a major life change (based on science!), describes how the human brain works and how we can spur behavioral change based on scientific tactics, and gives her thoughts on some listener-submitted parenting and relationship scenarios. The two dive into just how complex and powerful the human mind really is, and Maya may just change Kaitlyn’s life and relationships (and yours, too) based on her studies and findings. To keep on learning, make sure to check out her podcast, A Slight Change of Plans (@aslightchange ).CROCS - For that year-round summery vibe that’s stylish, easy to wear and comes in 5 different colors, head to crocs.com to buy y ours! STARBUCKS - What gives you energy? Find your Starbucks Tripleshot Energy online or at your local store. EUROPEAN WAX CENTER - Visit waxcenter.com to book your reservation today and check out the new line of products — remember, your first wax is free! GEICO - Go to Geico.com , get a quote, and see how much YOU could save. RENT THE RUNWAY - Use promo code VINE for 30% off! Valid for a limited time so visit RentTheRunway.com today. Terms & c onditions apply. OXICLEAN - Visit Oxicleancoupons.com right now, where a coupon is waiting for you. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Okay, listen up if you love a good slow burn romance, and let's be real, who doesn't? You need to check out the new Audible Original of Pride and Prejudice. It's an intimate performance that literally makes you feel like you're right there swooning with Lizzie Bennett and Mr. Darcy. Marisa Abella as Elizabeth and Harris Dickinson as Darcy, I'm obsessed. So whether it is your first time with Jane Austen or your 50th, this version is such a fresh, fun listen. Go to audible.ca slash Jane Austen to dive in. Hey, everybody, you're listening to Caitlin Bristow's podcast, Off the Vine.

Take it away, Bree. Wine. Lots of wine. Hey, be on the mic, turn it up. Let's go. Hey, ramen, Pino, ready for the show. Everyone's welcome. So come on in because OTV, it's about to begin.

Welcome to Off the Vine. I'm your host, Caitlin Bristow. First of all, Vino's, I need to tell you that. I've realized I'm getting old. I had to ask my team to ensure any document they send to me, which I'm not able to edit, are size 16. So I can read them. Oh my gosh. Maybe I just need to eat more carrots or get glasses, one of the two. Okay, but what makes me feel good about getting older is that I'm getting wiser, especially when I have an extremely smart guest, like today's guest on the pod, to keep my brain from going to mush. And I don't know about you, but I just always feel more

accomplished in a day when I'm learning something new. So today I have a very intelligent yet funny and relatable conversation with Dr. Maya Shunker about how you can change people, how you can change their minds. She served in the White House for four years under President Obama. And during that time, she founded and was the chair of the White House's first behavioral scientist team, which I found so fascinating because that job did not exist before. And she cold emailed somebody and created that job for herself for Obama and got it. It's amazing. She is a graduate of Juilliard, a premier concert violinist for over 15 years. She got her BA from Yale in Cognitive Science. And if that wasn't enough, she got her Ph.D. at Oxford as a Rhodes Scholar. Then, because she obviously

just wasn't smart enough with all of those credentials, she got her postdoc in cognitive neuroscience at Stanford. I mean, I'm just exhausted by saying those titles out loud, let alone. everything she's done. But she's just fascinating. She's been featured in New York Times, Forbes, and has her very own podcast, a slight change of plans. She interviewed Hillary Clinton. I was just truly kind of intimidated to talk with her, but she really is the sweetest, most humbled, down to earth, crazy smart, human. So put on your glasses, tighten your due, because we're about to learn some new things. Hi. Hi, Caitlin. How are you?

you. I'm good. It's so nice to meet you. I'm a long-time fan. Thank you. Oh, my gosh. So nice to meet you, too. Absolutely. You are, you are forever the best bachelorette. Oh, my gosh. Thank you for saying that. That's so nice. Both my husband and I are on the same page about this one. So you've got two votes from the Shunker Lee family. Wow. That is amazing. So I got the warm fuzzies. I'm all about the warm fuzzy. Yeah, during quarantine, I like, yeah, I rewatched your whole season. And I was like, stop. Stop. The best one. So there you go. Do you know what? I actually have never rewatched it. And when I came here, I'm filming for Michelle's season right now. And I had to quarantine for a few days. And I rewatched my season. And I've never done that before. And it was so strange because

I thought I, I mean, obviously I watched back and cringed a few times. But I was actually proud myself in certain situations. I was like, wow, like, those six years ago and I kind of like knew what I was doing. That's awesome. You were very composed. I forget what that jerk's name was. Was it Eric, Eric? The Princeton guy. Ian? Ian. The worst. You were such a jerk and you were extremely mature in your response. So well done. I was biting my tongue extremely hard there. I remember just being like, so many things going through my head. But anyways, thank you for saying that I, so I usually, I'll record my intros like all about you after the podcast. So you won't hear the introduction, but holy crap. I mean, it's a long list of extremely impressive

education and credentials and the publications that you've been featured in is absolutely incredible. And something I heard you say in one of your interviews that I really kind of clung to was that all the information in someone's bio is just a highlight real and that it wasn't all just seamless for you. And I mean, I know you had a significant change in your career path and we'll get into that in a bit. But in a general sense of that quote and the fact that you were a doctor now in behavioral science, how does a bio change someone's perception of somebody else? Yeah. I mean, I've always felt like in the same way Instagram is just the highlights real of your life. I think with a bio, you only see the success stories from a person's life.

You don't see the failures, but I think even more importantly, you don't see all the anxiety in those inflection points that that person had when they didn't have the clarity of what the future would hold. You know, it's so easy to look back and think, oh, yeah, of course I was going to figure out my way. But at so many points along the way in my journey, and as you know, I've been through many different phases of life, I was a concert violinist, and then I was an academic, cognitive scientists for a while and then I was a public policy person in the Obama White House

and now I work in tech and I have a podcast. I think at every point I've definitely struggled to figure out what would come next and I just I always want people to appreciate that that's the case because otherwise I feel like life can just be really intimidating if you don't feel that that's a normal part of the process. That's true that it like your bio is kind of your chance to pump your own tires and be like this is all but it's not like but I also had anxiety. in there. And I also struggled to get this. And it was really hard and I almost didn't get this chance. And that's, I mean, that's kind of what the bio is for is to obviously impress people. But that's a good point. And I like that you make that and compare it to Instagram the same way. You know, that's

obviously highlight reels. I wanted to talk about kind of a major turning point in your life and a huge part of your story is that you were a very serious concert violinist. And that came to you a halt when you had a hand injury? Tell me what happened. Yeah, I know. They don't really think of playing the violin as an extreme sport, but I managed to seriously enter myself. Oh, no. So when I was six years old, my mom went up to her attic and brought down my grandmother's violin that she had brought with her all the way from India when she immigrated to this country in the 70s. And she had just expected to show it to me. But Caitlin, when I opened up that instrument, maybe you had a similar experience with dance. I don't know. But when I opened up the instrument for the first time in the

pace and I looked at it and I touched it and I played it. I just completely fell in love. And my mom says she never had to tell me to practice. She knew that this was genuine passion. And so when I was nine, my parents had no connections in the Western classical music world, right? My dad's a physics professor. My mom helps immigrants get green cards to study in this country. And so they knew that I had this really big ambition when it came to being a violinist, but they didn't know how to help realize that. Yeah. And so one of my big goals was to study at Juilliard. That had been something that I'd been eyeing from the time I was a little kid. And so one day when I was in New York with my mom, we were just walking by the Juilliard School of Music. And my mom goes, why don't we just go in?

And I'm like, what do you mean? Why don't we just go in? That's insane. Like I, we don't have an invitation. I don't know anyone there. She goes, look, we've got your violin with you. Let's just go in and see what happens, see if we can make some connections. So we walk into the building unannounced, uninvited, and she strikes up a conversation with a fellow violin student in the elevator and her mom and simply says, you know, my daughter is an aspiring violinist. Would you mind if you just introduced her to your teacher after your lessons over? And they were so generous and kind and agreed to make the introduction. And I ended up auditioning for him on the spot. And he accepted me into a summer camp and I prep that whole summer as a boot camp for my Juilliard audition. And then

I ended up getting accepted. And so it was really like my mom's spearlessness that unlocked this whole opportunity for me. But that really put me on the speed train when it came to the violin. It was like every Saturday I was getting up at 4.30 in the morning. My mom and I would drive from Connecticut all the way to New York. I was in 10 hours of classes. And when I was a teenager, my violin role model and idol, it's like Pearlman, asked me to be. his private violin student. And for those listeners of yours who are not in the classical music world, you know, he's considered the best violinist of our time. And so he really gave me that vote of confidence that I maybe had what it took to become a pro. And then, as you mentioned,

when I was 15, on a single note, I overstretched my finger and I ended up tearing tendons in my hand that just overnight ended my career as a concert violinist. And- Wait, that's heartbreaking. Yeah, it was so challenging and you're so frustrated by it. Like, you're, I mean, as you can tell, I know so much about you because I'm obsessed with you. But anyway, with your dancing with you're dancing with the stars, you had your own injury with your foot. And you know how incredibly heartbreaking and maddening it is to go through an injury. And I think the reason for that is when you're a go-getter type, who's always willing to work as hard as you possibly can, when suddenly you're confronted with an experience where hard work's not.

going to be the solution. It can be maddening. And I remember I resisted the doctor's diagnoses for weeks and months and I kept continuing to play through the pain and I kept committing myself to these performances that I wanted to do. And finally, you know, reality caught up with me and I knew I could just never play again and and I had to pivot. But it was it was absolutely heartbreaking. If that injury that I had, you know what, I wouldn't have been able to do it if it was longer than the time that I had because I also injured my ribs. And like they, a lot of the doctors were like, you probably shouldn't, but obviously you're going to. Yeah. And if I had to, you know, quit in that moment, I, that would take, like, I would have to grieve that. That would have to be like a long process for me to get over because, especially because my childhood dream was to be a dancer and all this stuff. So what helped you grieve the loss of your dream as a violinist? and what were like some turning points to pursue a different career? Yeah, it's a great question. I mean, in psychology, there's a concept called identity foreclosure

that I think really helps me to understand that experience better in this stage of my life. And it refers to the idea that we can get really fixed in a certain identity in adolescence. And it can continue through adulthood, but especially in adolescence, we tie ourselves to a very specific thing and we latch our identities to that thing in a way that when we lose it, it can shatter your own sense of identity. And I think what that experience at 15 taught me is to see my identity, it forced me to see my identity as more malleable than I had beforehand. Because before I was thinking, I'm first and foremost, a violinist.

Like before I'm even Maya, I'm a violinist. That is my sole identity. You know, to this day, like my right shoulder is a little higher than I left. And my spine grew into the ergonomics of the violin just from spending. many hours, you know, practicing every single day. And so it really was such a formative part of my childhood. And then when I lost it, like I said, I was forced to see my identity as as more malleable. And I think that served me really well as I've gone through the twists and turns that my life has taken ever since. Because one insight that I had, and I wonder if this can be helpful

to your listeners who are going through a big change, especially an unwanted change, and are trying to figure out how to navigate it, is that if you had asked me, as a kid, what is it that you love about the violin? I would have said, oh, I love, you know, the way that it feels. I love the sounds that it produced. I love, you know, just perfecting a phrase and have it play out exactly in this particular way. But what I realized is that actually the thing that really made me fall in love with the violin is that it allowed me to forge a deep emotional connection with people I had never met before. So as a little kid, right, I'm going on stage. There's thousands of people in the audience. We're complete

strangers to one another. And yet, within moments, I can make them feel something they've never felt before. Yeah. And that is intoxicating to feel like you can connect and bond with people that you've never met in this really beautiful way. And I think what that helped me appreciate is that it's actually humans that I'm obsessed with. Like, it's actually that emotional connection drives me. The violin was an instrument, no pun, to forge a connection. But it actually was that. And I think what that helped me do is, is to find the features of the pursuit that made me love the violence so much in other activities that allowed me to, to move forward. So, for example, you know, I ended up studying the human mind, duh, because I'm assessed with humans,

right? And how we work. And so understanding what makes us feel things and how we make decisions and how we develop our attitudes and beliefs is an expression of that passion. And then in creating my podcast, a slight change of plans, you know, I have the ability to go really deep with people. You can cut through all the pleasantries. And, you know, as you're talking before, I can just enter a room and say, hi, Hillary Clinton. So apropos of nothing, what was the hardest moment of your life? You know, what's your biggest insecurity? And you cut right to the deep kit. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. And so I feel like that's been the through line through all these twists and turns, which is, you know, when you lose something, you learn, okay, I should never have

attached myself to that physical thing, to that actual hobby or pursuit. I should figure out, what it was about that thing that really made me light up and then try to figure out if there are other things in life that can tap into that same passion and love. That's very helpful, actually. I think a lot of people will take something from what you just said. I did, but I feel like that's, I'm kind of similar to you. I always thought dancing, which again, it did like moving my body in a certain way to music, of course, but it was the performance for me. I loved performing for people and I loved making people smile and I loved like even goofy dances of making people laugh. Like I, I just love the performance aspect of it because I liked that connection and that made

a lot of sense to me when you said that. That's so interesting and such a great point for people who are lost in change right now. Yeah. You know, the lucky among us get to go through life just exclusively following their passion, right? Like Taylor Swift will probably always write amazing songs and sing them. So fine, she gets bad. But a lot of the rest of us will be forced to pivot. in turn. And, you know, you'd asked me earlier about, you know, were there any specific turning

points? And the most important thing that I did for myself during that period was to keep as open a mind as possible about what was out there in the world. Because again, up until this point, it was almost as though I had blinders on, like the music blinders. That was all that existed in the world. That was the only path I could see for myself in the future. And so I started reading a ton of books about, you know, that were not required to. school, just like random stuff. I started talking to lots of people about what jobs they had. And then I just got lucky. So the summer before freshman year of college, I was helping my parents clean out their basement as a dutiful daughter does. I was supposed to be in China touring

with my classmates playing the violin. So, you know, equally cool summer situation. And I stumbled upon a book on how the mind works. And I was just enraptured. Like I opened this book and I'm reading about our ability to comprehend and speak. language and how that's the result of this incredibly complex cognitive machinery. And at once, I just felt completely an awe of the human mind and all that is capable of. You know, it's like, well, this is what's behind language. What's behind our ability to make really complex decisions, to love? You know, like, what's behind all of it? And I just, again, remember feeling that awe and also thinking, you know, as humans, we're all so hard on ourselves all the time. We're always

critiquing. If we only knew what our brains were doing every day, we would feel like we were crushing it every single day. We would feel amazing to understand the full depths of the range of our cognition and every, in every moment, all the stuff that's going on. And so that was such an inspiring moment for me. And that's when I realized, okay, I want to study this incredible organ that we have and figure out all it's capable of. I mean, you're like the definition of pivoting. And I want to get more into what you were just talking about, but how did you get the opportunity to work at the White House. Like, how did that come about? Tell me everything. I basically used my mom's Juilliard cold walk-in method many times since that happened. But I love that method. The fearless,

just making connections. Yeah, it's what you got to do. Yeah, you know, you're never, you're not always going to have the silver flatter put in front of you. So you just have to create it. So basically what's happening is at this point in my journey, I had, you know, studied cognitive science, to study, study the mind for years. I did my PhD in this. I did my postdoc in this. So, At this point, I spent almost 10 years prepping to become a professor, prepping to become an academic. And I remember there was this moment, Caitlin, where like, shit hit the fan. So I'm, like, sitting in the basement of an fMRI laboratory. So basically, you put people into these brain scanners and you look at images of their brain and you try to examine their decision-making

and how that maps onto brain activity. It's all very complicated. And it was very hard work. And I remember I was in about the windowless room because, of course, I was in the basement. And this guy comes in and I was probably in my fifth hour of scanning people's brains. It goes into the scanner within moments I'm peering into this dude's brain. And I'm thinking to myself, you know, given my personality, I think the order of operations is a little bit off here. Like, I don't know if this guy has kids. I don't know what his favorite ice cream flavor is. I feel like I'm too social for this.

Like I just, I want to be having conversations with human beings as the primary part of my job rather than doing this like very technical work. And so, but at that point, I, you know, to our earlier conversation about these pivots and how they can create anxiety, I was thinking, I just spent 10 years of my life, you know, prepping to be an academic. And now I'm going to jump shit. Like what, what possibly comes next? So I was looking into, you know, general management consultant positions just like completely leaving the field. And then fortunately for me, I had kept in touch with my undergrad advisor. And she told me, Maya, I heard about this incredible work that's happening in the Obama White House right now where they're using insights from human behavior, so insights from our field to literally change people's lives. And this particular story involved what's called the National School Lunch Program. So basically the government offers free or reduced price lunches to kids who can't afford lunch so that they can thrive at school every day. And what was tragic about this program is that despite the fact the government was offering this program to millions of kids, millions of kids were going hungry every day.

at school because they hadn't been signed up. And so they did a behavioral audit, let's call it, of the program to figure out, like, what's underlying such low participation rates? And they found at least two factors. One is that the form was extremely burdensome. So we are asking parents who are already strapped for time and resources to fill out a document that requires, you know, referencing multiple tax documents and it has to be mailed in exactly by the state. And if you, you know, enter in any information incorrectly, there could be a penalty associated with it, right? Like, We weren't creating the right environment for this form to be filled out. And two, there was a stigma associated with signing up kids for a benefits program.

So I remember when I eventually did get to the White House, I talked to principals who said, you know, these parents in my community, they work really hard for a living and they don't like the idea of depending on the government to feed their kids. So what the government did is it leveraged an insight from behavioral science around the power of defaults. And basically what that says is if you change a program from an opt-in program, to an opt-out program, it can dramatically increase participation rates. So they changed the program.

They tweak the policy so that now, just as the defaults, all eligible kids were enrolled in the school lunch program. And now parents only had to take a proactive step that they wanted to unenroll their kids from the program. And as a result of that small tweak in the way the program was designed, 12.5 million kids were now eating lunch at school every day. And, you know, it seems like such a small change, like, oh, it's just, you know, it's out versus opt in. But that's make or break for millions of kids. And so I was so emotionally moved by the story.

I was like, that's what I want to be doing. I want to be taking insights about human behavior and these small tweaks that we know can have a profound impact on behavior and the way that people engage with our government and to apply them to help improve people's lives. That said, there no job for a behavioral scientist. So this is where I use my mom's method. I send a cold email to a former White House official basically saying like, hi, I'm Maya. I have no public policy experience. I publish nothing of significance. Please give you this job opportunity. And I even remember saying in the email, I know I'm not cool enough to work with the likes of Obama, but if there's a state or local government opportunity, that'd be great. And thankfully for me, he ignored all

the insecurities that were seeping out of his email and just wrote back and was like, Thanks so much for your note, Maya. Here's the president's science advisor's email. Go for it. I'll let him know that I sent you along. And so within three days, I was interviewing for a position that I was, that didn't even exist. I was just trying to convince them to make it. And within a few months, I packed up my bags in California and I moved to D.C.

And I was working for the Obama White House. It was an extraordinary experience with a lot of good luck and chance involved. So. Well, I mean, yes, good luck and chance, but also fearlessness and you being you and everything that's happened in your life and who you are as a person to get you to be able to do that. Like you created your own role for yourself in the White House because that's who you are and you're a passionate person. It's not just. Okay, I'll give myself a little credit. I mean, the stars had to have aligned in some way in the sense. You know, Obama had to get reelected for his second term. So all those things were rolling. It's not. Okay. I'll give myself a little credit. I mean, I mean, the stars had to have aligned in some way in the sense. You know, Obama had to get reelected for a second term. So all those things. Right. So all. Right. Right. So all. So all. So all. Right. to place. And, you know, I was very lucky to join an administration that was so focused on science, right, in evidence and, and saw a role for a behavioral scientist to play. Yeah, I mean, I would take that role in my life. I could have you in my back pocket at all times. That would be great. I'd be like, I just, there's so many, I mean, all my listeners have some questions for you that I'm like, yeah, how do I change my fiance's mind on this? Did you get to meet Obama?

Oh, yes. Oh, my gosh. My husband gets annoyed because When I was briefing him in the Oval Office, I came out and I was like, oh, my God, Jimmy, that was the best day of my entire life. And he's like, you do know we got married this year, right? And I was like, oh, right. Yes, of course. That was the best day. Obama was number two. Yeah, he's an incredibly magnetic presence. And one thing that's so extraordinary about him is that despite having had so many, I mean, it's unimaginable the level of stress of president. basically. And yet he is so present with you when you are in the office with him. It's an extraordinary ability to compartmentalize, which I don't have, for example. So just a quick anecdote about Obama. So the night before I was drafting his briefing document for the meeting. So I had this interesting vantage point of both leading the meeting because I was leading the team. So prepping the president for the meeting and then also being an attendee of the meeting. Right. So getting to see how it actually unfolded. And so I was pulling together all the bios of all of my teammates. And I got to

my bio. And I remember reading the last line and being like, oh, yeah, there's this part about me having been a violinist. Like, can I even include that? That's so weird because it's not even relevant to this public policy stuff. And then I was thinking, you know what? The president's not even have time to read this anyway. So like, who cares? I'll just keep it in. Right. The door of the Oval Office opens. And the first line out of the president's mouth is, I can't believe you studied the violin with my buddy, it's not Pearlman. He played at my inauguration with Yo-Yo Ma. And I was so touched in that moment. I'm like, not only did he take the time to learn about me and all the people in the room, but he needed a point to just make me feel so special and like, and that my

past mattered as well as my present contributions to the administration. So it was moments like that that just felt incredibly special. That's, that also like validates you as a violinist too that you probably were like, yes. I was indeed at one point. Exactly. Wow. That is actually incredible. You have some pretty great stories. I'm really hoping you can give me my listeners some solid little nuggets of thought provoking and thought changing information from your little smart brain that we can begin to chew on. So let's dive into what I've been waiting for and what you've touched on, but behavioral

science and the idea kind of behind how you can change people or change someone's mind because who doesn't want to change somebody's mind on certain things? Like, I won't get into my list, but I'm sure Jason wants to change my mind on things too. But let's just start with what exactly behavioral science is. Like if you can explain to my listeners, almost how we can use it to make better decisions. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. So behavioral science is the study of how our minds work and how we make decisions, how we develop

our attitudes at beliefs about the world, how we build motivation, like you said, how we can change other people's minds, how we can change our own minds. It's really this umbrella category that captures so many parts of the human experience. And the reason why I'm particularly fascinated by behavioral science is because it teaches us that some really surprising factors can influence our decisions that really ought not to. So a really good example of this is we like to believe that when we go into a voting booth, we're going to vote for the person we'd most like to see elected into office, right? That's just common sense. Like, of course that would be the case. Right. But research shows that the order in which the candidate's names appear on the ballot has an outsized impact on voter behavior. In fact, in Texas, they found that when a candidate's name appeared first on the ballot, that candidate got a 10 percentage point boost in vote share relative to the candidate that was listed last. And so when you understand these kinds of biases that exist, this is true, by the way, if you go to a restaurant, people are more likely to order the first item on the menu.

then we can design public programs or policies in ways that account for it. So in the case of the voting booth example, a lot of states will now randomize the order in which the candidate's names appear across ballots so that there's true fairness across that system. And then there's other examples of other factors that can, again, have a huge impact on our behavior. So one that I really love has to do with social norms. There's research that was trying to get people to save more energy, right? That's such an important thing right now, climate change, et cetera. And they tried all sorts of tactics, Caitlin, to try to get people to use less energy. So it's like knocking on doors, financial incentive, canvassing, you name it. The only thing that worked was telling people

when they were using more energy than their neighbors. So basically like pure shaming. Like, hey, Bob down the roads. Yeah, Bob down the roads, been using a lot less than you. I guess he's a little more environmentally friendly than you are. Nothing like a little neighborhood rivalry. Exactly. Like everyone's comparing their lawns, so maybe they should compare their energy usage. So that's another example of an insight that can have a profound impact on our behavior. And a final one that I love to talk, but there's so many, but we can sprinkle them in throughout the course of the conversation has to do with what's called identity priming. And identity priming refers to the fact that when we attach ourselves to a specific social identity or aspire to have a certain social identity, we will act in ways that align with that. identity. So, for example, they find that if you were a voter at some point, reminding you

of your voter status, like, hey, Caitlin, you're a voter, can lead you to be more likely to vote in upcoming elections. Or the Red Cross ran a study where they reminded people of their status as previous donors to the charity and found that not only did they become repeat donors, but they increase the magnitude of their contributions because they're thinking to themselves, like, oh, I'm a really charitable person. Like, I have this really robust identity. That's important And it can definitely motivate pro-social behaviors, like I just described, like, donating to charity. But it's also something we have to be really careful not to use when it's not appropriate. So one project I worked on when I was in the Obama White House had to do with supporting formerly incarcerated individuals.

So they were leaving prison and, you know, we're acclimating back into civilian life, trying to get work, trying to reintegrate into their communities. And we were creating these reentry guides to help them with every step along the way, like, you know, getting your driver's license and, you know, figuring out what higher education might look like, et cetera. And we scrubbed that booklet and realized that harmful identity labels were being used, like former convicts, ex-prisoners. And so instead what we did is we used forward-looking identities, like community members and job seekers. And so you want to use these identity primes that align with people's aspirational states when they are, in fact, wanting to depart from their paths.

Yeah. I'm so fascinated. I'm like, my brain is just processing everything. I'm like, yeah. Wow. It's just so fascinating, like just simple little things that you have said throughout this whole podcast that can, you know, shift something in such a big way. Absolutely. And I think, you know, when it comes to changing people's minds, this is one of the most elusive coveted types of change. It's incredibly hard to get people to change their minds. Yeah. One story that really inspired me was on my podcast called A Slight Change of Plans, and it's about this black jazz musician named Daryl Davis who ended up convincing hundreds of people to leave white supremacy groups and directly led dozens of people to leave the Ku Klux Klan. And to me, that was an example of the fact that

if you can get someone with the most vile, reprehensible views to change their mind, there's potentially a lot more hope when it comes to changing people's minds than we think. And what I learned from Darrell's story is that a lot of the techniques you used were in fact corroborated by the science of actually effective tactics for changing people's minds. So there's this research in motivational interviewing, which talks about the importance of increasing your question to statement ratio in a conversation. So rather than just continuing to talk at the person and being like, this is what's right. This is how you should think. You ask them questions about how it is that they arrived at the views that they have.

What evidence might change their mind? And I love that question because it presupposes that they ought to change their mind in the face of new evidence. Other tactics that are really effective and it comes to changing people's minds is recruiting their own sense of agency in that conversation. So one thing I love that Daryl said is, I don't think I change these clan members' minds. They change their minds. I just inspire them to do that.

So you want to make sure that that change is coming from within and that you're arming them with the right way of thinking about things such that they arrive at this new conclusion because we know from research that that's a much more durable way of engaging in change is to arrive at that conclusion yourself. Wow. I know cognitive science has a lot to do with our habits and also our anxieties and obviously our opinion on things, which can be ingrained by our parents, traditions, communities. So I had a lot of my listeners submit some situations that they're in with their partner or best friend or whoever where they disagree on something or have anxiety tendencies over something or cannot change their minds. So we're hoping you

can provide a little insight or a place for them to start at least with how to begin to see eye to eye or make some changes. So one that I want to actually start with just because it was such a main one that a lot of people actually said. It was the vaccine. Like there's a lot of couples out there that like are really split on like absolutely hell yes i'm getting it no i'm not touching that i'm sure you've heard that one before absolutely i'm so glad that your listeners are asking about this because i mean it's a life or death question right i think the most important research coming out of my field in this space is called cultural cognition and it refers to the fact that people don't decide what they believe in based purely on facts right right we like to believe

believe, oh, the reason they haven't seen the light yet is because there's an information gap, right? If I just help them understand what the science says. If I just beat them over the head with all the data, that's going to move the needle. But we all know from our own experiences dealing with people we disagree with that that's clearly an incomplete picture of what's going on. And that's because people arrive at their attitudes and beliefs in large part based on their tribal identities, their group membership, their community membership, and what values that community has. Yeah. And so something like wearing a mask, you know, in my mind, I'm thinking,

it's just a damn piece of cloth. Right. Wear a mask. It'll keep you safe. Like, why is this such a big deal? But it's a great empathy builder when you realize to someone who belongs to a community that doesn't believe in mask, that, like, wearing a mask can threaten their membership to a group that they feel is a sacred relationship in their lives, right? Because that that group is on the road saying, like, you know, we're anti-mask. And then they wear a, mass, it's a public affront. And so when I learned more about the fact that we don't actually develop our attitudes and beliefs just based on facts, but are really influenced by these other

social factors, it can help generate some solutions, right? And let me just give, for the listener who asks this, I just want to give one small anecdote, a research study actually, because I think it's a really poignant illustration of this point. And it actually has to do with watching football matches. So, okay, yes. So there was, this is research from the 1950s, but basically there was video footage of controversial referee calls from a football match. And they had people from opposing teams watch this footage, watch these controversial referee calls and judge those calls. And what they found is that people who were on opposing teams came to very different conclusions about those calls, right? They tended to think that the referee calls were unfair when they were against, their own team and vice versa. And the reason why this is so compelling to me is it, it's not like these folks are watching thinking, yep, I'm biased. I can't see reality with any objectivity. Of course that's not what's happening. Like they absolutely believe their visual systems are not betraying them, right? And that what they're seeing is true. But it shows that when you

feel this loyalty, when you feel this kind of group allegiance, it can absolutely cloud and color, your objective assessments of situation, can literally transform what you see, right? Like your perception of reality. And so that can be the case. Then of course, people will have views about the vaccine that are not evidence-based. They'll have news about mask wearing that are not evidence-based, et cetera. So there is some hope on how it is that we can change people's minds. One of my favorite bodies of work is called, comes from this area of research called moral refraining. And it basically says, whole people's values is fixed. Don't threaten their entire worldview, their entire ideology. And instead, just reframe the message in ways that actually

affirm their values rather than threaten them. So let's take the environment, for example. With liberals, you might focus on the fact that investing in climate change can help unlock opportunities for low-income people. It can help, you know, bridge socioeconomic divides, etc. For conservatives, you might talk about the fact that, you know, investing in environmental reform and preservation is a way of displaying patriotism, that it is patriotic to preserve our natural resources and our nation's beauty and our history. And so in both cases, Caitlin, the end goal is getting people to give a crap about climate change, but you are leveraging their values and their underlying principles and you're holding those as constant and you're framing the message in a way

that can align and actually help elevate their commitment to those values. Wow. Speak in their language. That's good to know. And like, I mean, with everything, that could be even in an argument in a relationship or a conversation between, you know, like you have to kind of read your audience and know who you're talking to. Absolutely.

I mean, when it comes to like, you know, a disagreement with a partner, you might in that moment say, look, I know we might disagree on this particular topic right now, but I do want to remind you, you do pride yourself on being willing to admit when you're wrong. So like just a reminder, that is one of your values, right? And I feel like that can help create a safe space for that person to say, okay, yeah, maybe I should have a slightly more open mind because now you need a partner who actually does value that. You can't make it up. But in fact, if Jason, for example, actually is willing to, and he's wrong, just reminding them that that's the value they hold near and dear to their hearts can be really assisted in those tense moments. That's such, that I think you might have just changed my life and my relationship

there like that might be something like because that was a perfect example for jason specifically he is so good at admitting he's wrong in certain situations and there are times where i'm like how can he not admit he's wrong like he knows he is why is he being so defensive i'm going to give him that little friendly reminder and uh see where that goes that's actually really smart and a few others actually commented the same. I feel like a common question between couples is buying a house together first versus getting engaged first. So many of my friends have been annoyed at the male partner because they think the house comes first and the woman thinks, why would I get a house with someone who hasn't given me a ring yet? I've seen this happen in, you know, so many

relationships and things. But it happened with us listeners before they were married too and curious of your thoughts. Yeah, I mean, there's so many idiosyncrasies and relationships and the kind of sequence that ought to make sense. But I actually think the most helpful way to think about it is not that there's a right answer, but that there's a right answer for any given couple. You know, for some people, they need to make that big investment in the house and like test out how they navigate such a big life moment and such a big life experience and how they feel on the other side of making such a large emotional and financial commitment to one another to know. if they have what it takes to get that engagement. And then for other people, they see it as

the reverse, right? It's like, I'm only willing to buy the house if I feel that we already have this deep, firm, long-term commitment to one another in the form of an engagement. And so I think rather than searching for, quote, the objective, right answer, it'd be great for this person to, you know, have a frank conversation with her partner about given where they're both at emotionally when it comes to thinking about the relationship in the future, what are the things that matter most of them? What are the kinds of signals that they need in order to launch forward along any of these paths and then see if they can find some unity there? Okay, that's good advice. Same person also says, also, if she can help me change my husband's mind on the fact that toilet paper belongs

on the toilet paper holder and not the floor, that would be great. She's laughing, but she said, but basically any advice on how to get them to actually understand where she's coming from and how these little things impact her without her seeming like she's just nagging all the time, which I feel the same way. Like I'm particular about certain things. And oftentimes I feel like I come across as nagging. No, first of all, toilet paper does not belong on the floor. So she is actually just objectively right in this case. And her partner is objectively wrong. So there is the case where you want to look for the objective answer. So one thing that I, you know, the types of conversations I have with my husband is that, you know, even though we feel very

similar. We are particular about different types of things. And actually, I think we just had this conversation recently where we were talking about a trip and what we wanted to, well, it got canceled because of the Delta variant, but whatever. It's relevant still. You know, we were talking about what it is that we wanted to prioritize on this trip. And I wanted to prioritize food because obviously what you prioritize food. And yeah, exactly. It's like, I love trying to provide food. And my husband just like didn't quite relate to this. And, you know, it's kind of like, like a light example, but it was one of those cases where I had to be like, you need to understand, like in my mind, like when we signed our marriage contract, like food was still number one.

Like you were always in second place. Like this really matters to me. Heels are sacred in my mind. And it was actually really important for me to draw parallels. It was like in the same way that you like absolutely need to play squash when we go on this trip because he's obsessed with playing squash. Like I need to make sure we're getting in those. whenever possible. And again, it's a lighter example, but I think if she can find that parallel

that where he demands something of her that she might see as kind of trivial or small, that can be a nice antidote, right? It's like, okay, I do ask you to not have toilet paper on the floor and put on the holder, but don't forget, like, you really care about the bed being made or maybe he's not clean at all. I mean, if this guy's putting toilet paper on the floor, I don't know if the bed's getting made. But like, you really care about, I don't know, the fridge being full or some random thing that he cares about. Something that means something to him. Because I think sometimes we can like judge one another for their preferences,

like their specific preferences when actually all they're expressing to you in that moment is that they care about something. And I feel like it's better for couples to be when the thing is not harmful, to be rather neutral about what the substance of that thing is and just know that it matters to them and then want to act on it. I've been having this conversation with my girlfriend because she needs sleep to function. She's a better mother. She shows up as a better partner. She just feels better overall if she gets like a couple extra hours of sleep. And her husband is an early

riser. So he's up anyways and he's, you know, that's just him. And he makes her feel guilty for those extra hours that she's sleeping. And she's like, I don't think he understands my level of passion for those extra two hours. Like it makes me a better person. It makes me a better wife. It makes me a better mom. And it's something that I need to like, like, you know, go through the day. And I said, ask him what's something that's so small and simple in his life that he just like, you know, even if it's that 45 minutes where he gets to play a video game before like he goes, like something that's just so simple to him that's like mindless and that really makes him feel better and ask if you'd ever make him feel bad about that. And she said he isn't good.

Complaints since. That's wonderful. That's exactly, you know, the expression of what I just described. And I think, I think, Caitlin, like when you study behavioral science, too, it is the greatest empathy builder because you start seeing mental states as just being universal mental states. So in many ways, it's like if something makes my husband anxious, even if that thing doesn't make me anxious, I know what anxiety feels like. I know how threatening anxiety can feel. I have my own things that make me anxious. And it is so helpful, I think, to think through that lens rather than focusing on the nitty gritty or the specifics of that thing. Yeah. Yeah. So true. So true. Okay. This one was actually a very popular topic as well. People just want parenting advice. Oh, gosh. I don't have kids yet.

But even just, yeah, even just like a few pieces of cognitive behavioral advice that you would give to parents in how to raise, you know, or teach them something, like all, like tell all the parents, you know, to raise the best kids to listen, to clean up after themselves without them having to yell, something science-backed that might help them. I don't know. So my favorite recent idea that I, that I've been reading about when it comes to the science of child development and parenting has to do with helping kids keep open minds about things from the time that they're little and valuing having an open mind. And so one of the ideas that emerges from this is asking kids to do multiple drafts of things.

And Adam Grant talks about this in his book. Think again, but basically he's talking about the fact that, you know, when you have kids do one draft, the impulse is to be like, oh, my God, that's so amazing. Great job. Well done. And then kids see that as the final state. They don't see that there could have been many versions of this thing that were better or worse along many different interventions. And I love that because it shows kids.

is that, one, there isn't a perfect state, like for kids of any perfectionist tendencies, it helps them rid themselves of that notion. But then, two, it allows them to see that there's many working models of the world, right? There's many versions of the world that can exist in the form of this painting or this letter that they're writing or this story that they're writing. And I think that can really breed a healthy mindset around, you know, future examples of willingness to change one's mind. You know, Jimmy and I don't have kids yet, but when we do have them, One thing that we talked about wanting to do, and I think this is going to be the moment where my kid is like, oh, my God, my mom's a cognitive scientist. Like, she's, why do I have a cognitive scientist mom?

But I would love to have a dinner tradition where we compel our child to say one thing that they did, one thing they didn't do well that day, right? And create that space for them to admit that they're wrong about something. It can be something like, I felt like I was a little bit mean. to the kid that was sitting next to me in class, or it could be misunderstanding something or laboring under a false belief about something. It could be, you know, I don't think I tried my best. Like, I pretended I tried my best. And it could be something like, yeah, I lied to my teacher. Like, whatever it is, I do believe that so much of the divisiveness that we see today stems from the fact that it's so tempting as humans to just double down on our beliefs and ourselves. And in many

ways, it's because we tie our beliefs to our identities, right? And so when we, when we threaten what we believe in, it can be a global threat to our sense of self and our identity. And the more that we can kind of disentangle ourselves from any individual action or behavior, I think the more sturdy we can be in the face of change, in the face of new information that ought to lead us to update, et cetera. I don't know if that resonates with you, but I kind of wish as a kid I had developed more pride being wrong about totally I while you're saying that I was just nodding my head being like that is such a good point it creates a safe place to talk about it that you can make mistakes and how you're going to change them instead of kids and I did this as a kid you want to

hide that and not let anyone know because you've disappointed yeah absolutely and I think certainly in my marriage like one thing that um it's so interesting it's like well I'm a behavioral scientist. My husband's a software engineer, but I feel like he's a pseudo behavioral scientist because he lives with me. He hears about all the research. But one thing we really pride ourselves on in our marriage is admitting that we're wrong. It is a willingness to say, oh, my gosh, you're right. Like, I'm really sorry about X or Y. And we naturally did this. It wasn't even intentional, but we, like, really compliment the other person when they admit that they're wrong. It's like, we like give them a huge pat on the back, you know? And I think that that is an incentive.

It does create a safe space to know that, okay, either I'm right, which would be great, or what I did, I'm wrong. I get this huge, like, praise for my way because it's like, I'm so proud that you're really me that you're wrong. And so I think incentivizing that kind of behavior in a relationship can be really helpful. That's so true. Well, I feel like I just learned so much just in this. You should add life coach to the resume. Like you, tell me about your podcast and where people can find that and listen to it because I feel like I'm going to add that into the mix for myself. Oh, I'm so touched by that.

So, yeah, this podcast has been just like labor of love situation. So in 2020, I was feeling really overwhelmed by the rapid pace of change that was happening around me. Oh, and by the way, I wanted you to know, it was around that time that you went public about having had a history of like anxiety and were really forthcoming about that struggle. And I think there were so many of us in 2020 who were kind of caught off guard with. just how vulnerable we felt. And I hope you know how reassuring it was to hear your story and you're being so vulnerable and so open. Because that can have a really positive impact. Like I remember sharing that article with so many of my friends who are having insomnia or anxiety attacks or what have you. And you made a huge positive difference in the world. So I just want to separately to say

thank you, Caitlin. Thank you for telling me that. I think society relies on people with platforms like yours to really get these positive messages out there and these vulnerable messages out there. That's another thing that I like part of the performance thing. It's not always necessarily like song and dance performing. I like the platform aspect of it to relate to other human beings and create that connection of like we're all going through something or have our struggles, no matter if you see the highlight real. It's always important for me to be extremely like transparent and authentic and sometimes share too much, but that's okay. But that's just who I am. And it brings me comfort sometimes, even if I'm crying on Instagram, people are like,

you're just looking for attention? And I'm like, no, I'm looking for connection. Like, that's, it's really different. Yeah. And I think it can reassure people when you're that candid about a mental health struggle because it is so stigmatized. Yeah. So anyway, yeah, in 2020, I was feeling really overwhelmed. And I was noticing, of course, how worldwide people were feeling overwhelmed by the pace of change and the fact that it was such a salient moment of realization that we are really not in control. You know, we carry around this illusion that we're in control. But man, 2020 was a reminder that we are not. Yes. And then I put on my cognitive scientist behavioral science hat and I realized, you know, while the specifics of what

2020 through our way may have been unprecedented. In many ways, our minds are built for change. And so our ability to navigate change is not unprecedented. Like we've done this rodeo so many times. And so, yes, there were novel challenges that we faced globally, nationally, on a personal level last year. But this is not the first time that we as humans have had to deal with large change moments. And so, you know, when you look to the science, there's no textbook that says,

okay, you're in the middle of a, you know, X horrible change. Go to page 92. There's your answer. And so I realized that it was so important for me to marry storytelling, like insights from people's real lives with the science around what we know about change. And that when in marrying those two worlds, that's what ended up building this idea for my podcast, a slight change of plans. It's an interview show where I interview people like Hillary Clinton and Tiffany Haddish and Casey Musgraves and Tommy Caldwell. I love Casey Musgraves so much. I love Paisy Musgraves, too. Oh, that's cool.

Yeah, so you should start with that episode because she actually previews new music from her album on the episode. So you can get the sneak peek. But I'm completely obsessed with her. And she was incredibly warm and generous and shared so many amazing insights about her psychedelic trips and how that, of course, a creative process. Anyway, it was a total joy. But anyway, so I had these interviews of folks. And I'm basically mining their stories for insights that can help us as listeners think differently about change in our own lives and i've learned it's been such a humbling process katelyn because as

someone who you know studies change for a living i have learned so much from my guests yeah about change that i never would have thought about otherwise and it's changing the way that i live you know and i feel like that's such an empowering process to to learn so much from people um through this experience so yeah i love this show i'm so kind of also obsessed with it that is i mean yeah I feel like everything you do, you put your heart and soul into. And I'm sure you do that with the podcast, too, especially if you love people and you are obsessed with connections with people. A podcast is definitely the right place for you to be having these conversations. So I can't wait. Is it on like basically anywhere you find podcasts? Yes. So Apple, Spotify, I heart radios for everything. Okay. Amazing. I'm definitely. I'm actually going to put that on right now because I have the rest of the day off, which is very weird in this world. I'm like, don't know what to do with myself. So now I'm. I'm literally just going to do that. And I have a Peloton bike in my room. I would love to hear any thoughts you have. I'm going to. I'm going to like, what is your social media also? Oh, yeah. So it's the show name. So it's our Instagram is a slight change and Twitter is slight change on. Okay. I'm resisting the like personal social media thing because I just don't know if I if I have. If you can use it strictly for your work and for the podcast, that's enough. Like it's it's a lot. It's a lot. And I think it's a healthy choice. Okay, well, I'm going to go follow that and listen to the podcast.

And I'm just, it was such a pleasure talking to you. And I could have talked to you for hours and hours more because you were the most fascinating. And you know, you're fascinating yet you're just so easy to talk to. You're just a very down-to-earth, humble person and who is just like also a genius. Well, that is so nice with you to say, Caitlin. And I would absolutely love to keep in touch. So, yes, we will. I will make sure of it.

I will make sure of it. Good luck with Michelle season. on kately bristow i'll see you next tuesday thanks for listening to off the vine with kately bristow get new episodes every tuesday exclusively on podcast one dot com the podcast one app and subscribe on apple podcasts