Off The Vine with Kaitlyn Bristowe - Emmanuel Acho: Uncomfortable Conversations with a Black Man

Episode Date: July 27, 2021

Nigerian-American former NFL linebacker and Author of “Uncomfortable Conversations with a Black Man”, Emmanuel Acho, joins Kaitlyn to provide a very open, honest and insightful discussion on race. After being interviewed by Matthew McConaughey and Oprah, Emmanuel landed the position of Host of “After the Final Rose” on Matt James’ season of the Bachelor which was ultimately defined by racial controversy. Attending an affluent White school while he was growing up and unknowingly being subject of racist comments and with an intention now to change the world, Emmanuel is using his voice to be a powerful bridge between Black people and White people to address questions that many do not want to answer. Emmanuel also shares publicly for the first time his thoughts on Matt James and Rachael Kirkconnell getting back together despite the controversy. You can find Emmanuel on IG at @emmanuelacho And the concluding segment on this episode is a mini interview with June’s Pump Your Tires LGBTQ2+ Small Business winner @projectopenbooks! CROCS - For that year-round summery vibe that’s stylish, you gotta check out the tulum sandal by Crocs. Head to crocs.com to buy yours. TALKSPACE - Go to talkspace.com and use code VINE to get $100 off of your first month. CREDIT KARMA - Go to creditkarma.com/winmoney to sign up for free and start winning instant karma. STRAIGHT TALK - Tune out the nonsense and tune in to Straight Talk Wireless. Straight Talk Wireless. No contract. No compromise. GEICO - Go to geico.com and in 15 minutes you could be saving 15% or more on car insurance. OXICLEAN - Visit oxicleancoupons.com where a coupon is waiting for you. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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Take it away, Bree. Wine. Lots of wine. Hey, be on the mic, turn it up. Let's go. Hey, ramen, Pino, ready for the show. Everyone's welcome. So come on in because OTV, it's about to begin.

Hey. Welcome to Off the Vine. I'm your host, Caitlin Bristow. Today I was extremely lucky. to speak with a man who is helping to voice the injustice of black people, educate the world, and use his platform as a bridge between black people and white people. I had the honor speaking to the author of Uncomfortable Conversations with a Black man, Emmanuel Acho, who is a Nigerian-American former linebacker who played in the NFL and is currently working as an analyst for Fox Sports

One. But many of you were likely introduced to him when he became the host of after the final Rose on Matt James season of The Bachelor, which was ultimately defined by racial controversy. Emmanuel is an extremely busy man, so I'm very honored that he was able to give me, even a half an hour, maybe 40 minutes he spoiled me of his time to speak with me. I packed in as many questions as I possibly could to make this a very informative interview, and so that as a collective community of Vinos, we can continue to educate ourselves, our loved ones, and always be working to do better. I really loved this interview, and I hope you do as well. So let's start my uncomfortable conversation with a black man.

We finally meet. What's up, homie? How are you? Yo, I love the bright color. Oh my gosh. Thank you. I honestly, you know when it's like so hot outside and always so cold inside, I'm like, my packing job is so confusing because I go, all these hot places and I bundle up everywhere I go because it's so cold inside. It'd be like that. Where are you from? Okay. So I'm actually from like a really small town in Alberta, Canada. And so you'd think I would be used to the cold, but I'm not. And then I moved to Vancouver when I was like 19 to dance like in a like hip hop ballet company. And then I lived in Vancouver for like 10 years, moved to Nashville. Now that's where I live. But I'm in

L.A. right now. Where are you right now? I'm in L.A. I'm like Century City, Beverly Hills. Oh, okay. I'm in Burbank right now. We just filmed Mentel All. Got you. Yeah. Got you. I love it. Oh, my gosh. It's so overwhelming. But anyways, I know you're a busy man and we have 30 minutes and I'm just like, I want to fill it with as much digestible information as we can possibly get out of you. I wanted to say, first of all, thank you to you for so many reasons. But seriously, thank you for using your voice. And I know so many people have said, you know, don't rely on your black friends to tell you this information. Do your own research. And not that we're not, but thank you for also using your

voice and making everything so approachable and easy to understand and using so many modern day metaphors to help understand and relate because it's really, really impactful. So I wanted to say thank you. I appreciate that. It's been an honor and a pleasure. And it's so good. I see like your background and I'm like, it's so funny because I'm like, you've been like talking to like, Oprah and like so many bigwigs with that background that I'm like, yeah, and Caitlin Bristow. And Caitlin Bristol, ladies and gentlemen. Yeah. Oh my gosh. So thank you. And before I dive into some questions about your upbringing or how that has led you here, I think one of the most common questions. And again, forgive me because I know you are probably on like repeat mode. You probably

get asked the same questions, but always just as impactful with a new audience. So I hope my listeners take a lot away from this today, but one of the most common questions I feel like people ask and have a bit of maybe a misunderstanding about using the term African American to a black person. And I know the answer to this because I've watched your interviews and I understand. And I think you say it in a way that, again, is so understandable. If you can help my listeners understand. Yeah. Well, one, it's awesome to be joined by you virtually. I guess it'd be much better if it was in person and Or normal. But yeah, this is a common question. And here's why I think, though, Caitlin, this is a great question, one to kick things off with and to lead with. I said this, I believe it was to Oprah. I said, if you don't know what to call somebody, you can't say you're really friends, right? After I first met, no, I usually try to answer questions and story form just to keep you all entertained. After I very first met Oprah, it was maybe the second or third time we talked. And I emailed her now. And I said, hey, should I call you? your majesty, your honor, queen.

True story, Caitlin. I shot her an email and I said all this. And she said, call me Oprah. Because Oprah's right-hand woman who discovered me, she calls her, oh. So I was like, oh, I don't know. Maybe I can start calling her, oh. You know, it has a good little ring to it.

People call me E. I can call it O, it's all fun of games. But she was like, call me Oprah. I was like, okay, Oprah is. Oprah is, it's fine. Okay, it's Oprah, Oprah, people. So black or African-American, I always say that black is safest and it is

most accurate. For example, I have two passports. I got a green passport and a blue passport. Blue passport makes me American. A green passport makes me Nigerian. If you were going to be accurate, then I'm Nigerian American. I'm not from the whole continent of Africa. Whereas black is simply an adjective describing one skin color. And so I think black is safest, most accurate, and least offensive because several black people got their African heritage stripped from them during the course of slavery. Names were changed. Last names were taken away and given. And African names, if you will. Now I have to speak generically and say African

because I don't know the specific tribes and countries that each individual is from. But African names were changed. And so black is safest and that is the why. And I think that's why people love hearing you explain things because you do it in story form and you give so much information while answering a question that you could just say this and it's less offensive.

But you have a story behind it and it makes you digest it easier and you're like, oh, wow, that makes so much sense. So thank you for clearing that up. I mean, I just love watching your interviews. I mean, I've watched them. When were you on Kelly and Ryan? You were telling your Oprah's story. That made me laugh because you were like, always answer private numbers because it could be Oprah.

That's crazy. It was a great. I don't know if you want that story. It's amazing. Please tell it. So when uncomfortable conversations popped off, and I would assume your audience is familiar with me from the Bachelor and hosting after the final rose. But the only reason they ever asked me to host The Bachelor and After the Final Rose was because I wrote a New York Times bestselling book and comfortable conversations with a black man. The only reason I wrote a bestselling book is because I had a video series, uncomfortable conversations with a black man, where I answer preemptively questions that I know my white brothers and sisters have.

Questions like, why can black people say the N word, but white people can't? Well, what is white privilege? What about black on black crime in Chicago? Why is nobody bringing that up and want to talk about police brutality? and why Emmanuel are black people rioting. So, Caitlin, you know this, but for your listeners, I answer those questions. And within five days, I have 25 million views. 25 million views.

To put that in context, that's like a season of The Bachelor. That's like eight seasons of the Bachelor. Like, just to put that in context for our listeners. Now, after five days after the first episode dropped, Caitlin, true story, I got a call from a no-caller ID number. I pick it up. I'm sitting at my dining room table. The first time I pick it up, I say, hello, Saturday morning, I'm meeting a bowl of Cheerios.

I say, hello? All I hear is this, Acho, McConaughey speaking. I want to have a conversation. I'm like, huh? McCona? Like, like Matthew? And that's a distinctive voice. Like, you know he's not lying.

Yeah, you can't fake that. No. And I knew there was a chance because McConaughey's wife had DM'd me the day before. Okay. And it was like, hey, I love your video series. Just want to say, thanks for all you do. I was getting hit up by it. was random. Like Jennifer Anderson had followed me, Reese Witherspooned Reed. Like, it was just crazy.

So I knew it wasn't a lie. I pick up McConaughey's call and I'm like, yeah, let's record episode two in three days. He said, let's do it tomorrow. I'm like, oh, yeah, McConaughey wants to do it tomorrow. We do it tomorrow. So I record episode two. True story. I record in an all white studio for those that have ever or never seen my episodes. But because McConaughey wanted to do it on a moment's notice, the studio was painted all blue, Caitlin. it was painted all blue so now I'm scrambling I hit up the owner and we rolled down a white sheet of paper and sat in front of a white sheet of paper and we cheated the camera to make it look white it was not white it was a blue studio I'll show you the footage when we end this conversation nonetheless after I do episode two with McConaughey I got a call three days later it's another no call or ID number hi Emmanuel this is so-and-so from Oprah Winfrey's team do you have time to face time Oprah later today? Hey, I'm like, do I have time? Can you imagine saying no, actually?

Exactly. So I call a FaceTime Oprah later that day. She's in her kitchen in like normal clothes. She's not giving out cars or anything. This is just like normal Oprah. And Oprah and I hopped on a call. First question she asked me, Caitlin, and I encourage everybody that's ever done anything with anyone to start with this question.

She says, Emmanuel, what is your intention? What is your intention? I said, Oprah, my intention is to change the world, and I truly believe I can. I'm currently working on writing a book. She cut me off. She said, books? I love books. And that is how the comfortable conversations with a black man became to be.

That is how I end up getting discovered and asked to host after the final rose. And that is why I am talking to you now. Now, is that something, was it like after George Floyd was murdered? Was it like your last straw? Or is this something that you had been working on? It's a great question. Caitlin, people always ask me, Emmanuel, what was your inspiration

for uncomfortable conversations with a black man? And I pause. Because, Caitlin, there wasn't an inspiration. There was a devastation. See, after George Floyd was murdered, I was devastated into creating. I put it like this, and Caitlin, I know you can relate.

People like us that are quote-unquote in the industry. I hate saying in the industry. What does that even know? Like, I hate living in Hollywood. You have to use, like, Hollywood terms. It's the worst. I get it. But people, people, we have publicists.

or assistants or producers, et cetera. And Caitlin, I'm the type of guy who I will relinquish responsibilities to my team. But the second the ball gets dropped, I always do what I assume you probably do and say, you know what, don't worry about it. I'll do it myself. See, when George Floyd got murdered, that was my, I'll do it myself moment. Because I'm like, you know what, police, I'll let you all handle it. Y'all can govern America's, you know, civil rights leaders, I'll let you all handle it.

you know um those that protests i'll let you all handle it but after george floyd was murdered and we all had to watch i was like you know what i guess i'll just do it myself and so true story i reach out to a wedding videographer this was not some sort of high level production Caitlin i reached out to a wedding videographer i found an abandoned studio in austin shout out to the owner and i reached out to my best friend an olympic gold medalist and it was us three that sat in the room and shot uncomfortable conversations with a black man so it wasn't as though i'd been thinking this idea up for months and weeks and years. Oh, and my first call was actually Rachel Lindsay. Oh, yeah. Because Rachel's my, my girl. I love her. Like, when I say I ride for Rachel Lindsay,

I do. But Rachel was my first call because it wasn't supposed to just be an uncomfortable monologue with a black man. First episode, Caitlin, I'm sitting by myself. I wanted to have three black people, three white people sitting around a table. My white brothers and sisters reach into a fishbowl, they ask the question, and we begin dialogue. That was the objective. Problem was, Rachel and Brian were in Miami. I was in Austin, so I couldn't get everybody together. That is what led me to ending up doing it myself. And I love that you just address it, like, in the title. It's, you get the elephant out of the room. It's uncomfortable conversations. Like, we all just start by knowing that, and it just kind of gets that out of the

way where you can put that aside and just go into the, like, levels that you need to go in. Grab a coffee and discover non-stop action with BudMGM Casino. Check out our hottest exclusive. Friends of one with Multi-Drop. Once even more options. Play our wide variety of table games. Or head over to the arcade for nostalgic casino thrills only available at BetMGM. Download the BetMGM Ontario app today.

19 plus to wager, Ontario only. Please play responsibly. If you have questions or concerns about your gambling or someone close to you, please contact Connix Ontario at 1866-531-2600 to speak to an advisor free of charge. But MGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with Eye Gaming Ontario. How uncomfortable was it, though, to sit and I watch this interview with, I love that you did this. You brought in a bunch of white police officers and had this conversation, and you said, when the last time you had people over, like a black family or black friends over, to have a conversation with black people.

And they were honest, which I respected, that they were like, I don't know that I have. So let me preface with what you said, because so many people insinuate, Caitlin, that I asked for all white people. The episode that Caitlin's referring to, I sat down with a group of police officers from Petaluma, California. Petaluma, California is right outside of Oakland, population of 60,000 less than 2% black. They reached out to me. And I said, hey, I'd love to sit down with your department. I didn't know they were going to be all white. I just figured there's going to be some cops.

Right. I show up and everybody's white. So I'm like, okay, guess we're talking to all white officers. Black men surrounded by all white cops in 2020? Not a great comfortable feeling for your boy. Now, to your point, I led with this, Caitlin, the very first question I asked, which I'll ask every listener listening, and I will not ask you, but I'll say something that will make you think. I asked the cops, I said, when was the last time you had? lunch or dinner or a meal with a black person. And their response, honestly, Emmanuel, I don't know that I

have next person. Well, Emmanuel, I can't say that I really have. So what that meant was that the first time they are apprehending a black person might be their first interaction with a black person. How you think that's going to go. Now, with those listening and Caitlin, congrats on your engagement. I see the ring on your finger. I always say this. I always say this to people. I say, because they're like, I have black friends. I know black people.

I asked them this question. Listener, ask yourself this question. I say this, how many black people were at your wedding? That's what makes people think. Because people are, oh, I know a black person. I cool with black people. But the second I say, how many black people are at your wedding, they start counting in their head, like, especially if they're white, obviously if they're white,

they're like, it's just a reflection. And I don't say this to say, like, we're racist. No, I say this to say, you can only know what you're exposed to. Right. Whether person, whether planet, whether country, whether creature, you can only know what you're exposed to. Yeah. And you know what?

It's interesting that you say that as well, because I think about my upbringing. And you, I had a really aha moment watching some of your interviews because one really hit me where, you know, you want. want to think, I'm not racist. And I remember my family. I remember doing book reports on racism. I remember being taught about racism at a young age that still, I have, you know what Matthew McConaughey said, the white allergies. Is that what he said? Yeah, right allergies. People need to go watch this interview to know what I'm talking about because it made so much sense to me because I'm like, I did book reports. We had family meetings about racism. And still,

I remember saying, I don't see color. And you said it so perfectly where you're like, it's great. You know, obviously that families are going to try and have conversations with their children and that, you know, oh, they don't see color. But it is important to see color. And I loved your explanation of that if you could share that with my listeners. Yeah, I always say, Caitlin, if you and I were to walk outside in an overcast day, and clearly we couldn't be in Los Angeles if it's overcast because it's always sunny. But if we were to walk outside in an overcast day and I would say, Caitlin, look up. look how beautiful that rainbow is. Imagine how

asinine it would be for you to respond and say, I don't see it, Emmanuel, I don't see color. What? See, the goal is to see color, appreciate color, appreciate what makes different colors unique, what makes different individuals unique. It's very well intended to say I don't see color. The intention is, I don't discriminate against you because of your color. But we have to do a better job of being proactive with our words in society. Caitlin, let me have a real moment for a second.

growing up i went to an affluent all-white private school the number one school in texas called st mark school of texas from grades five through twelve all boys school wore uniform and people would always say amenel you're black but you're not black black people would say i mean they're black but they're not i mean they're black but they're not really black you know what i'm saying what they meant is they are black by skin color but they are not black cultured right by what is stereotypical of black culture. It's a very similar premise when you say I don't see color. It's not intended to be offensive, but if you peel back the layers, use all of your words, because all of your words are, I don't discriminate against you because of your color. It's not that I don't see it. I'm just

choosing not to discriminate because of it. Yes. And also, it's kind of saying, you know, acknowledging somebody's black is also acknowledging the history and everything, that's gone on before, you know, the times that we're living in and still in the times we're living in, it's kind of brushing that off if you say, oh, I don't see color, because you should know color and you should know the history of that. And it really opened my eyes when you had said that. And I love the saying about the rainbow. Like, I just love all of your, what is it, a metaphor, like for everything. It's always, it really hits home when you say these things and do these comparisons because I'm like, how did I not think of that? That's exactly right. That's exactly right.

And I know you from, you know, listening and doing my research and following you and everything that, like you said, you grew up in the school where people would say things to you, like, what did they say about the Oreo? You're like an Oreo, black on the outside, white on the inside. And you didn't even realize at the time how wrong that was. When was it for you that you started acknowledging that that was wrong, how people would say those things to you? In all honesty, probably my sophomore year in college, I went to the University of Texas, played football at Texas, so now I'm immersed in black culture. And at that point in time, when I just reflected on, wait a second, back when I was in high school, people would tell me you don't even talk black.

But now that I'm immersed in these all black spaces, I'm like, these black people don't even all talk alike. We don't all talk alike. So what the heck does talking black mean? Because I'm like, my homeboy from East Texas, he sounds real country. my home boy from the city he don't sound country I went to private school

I don't sound like either of them so I'm like what is it to talk black and at that point in time I realized oh I didn't sound like Little Wayne circa 2006 like that's what they meant to be black was to be like Nelly

without the bandaid under his eye and so that's when I realized like you know what this train of thought is all wrong now we'll get into the difference between being racist racially ignorant and racially insensitive. Same thing I broke down with Rachel Kirk Connell

at the end of last season. Because there is a difference and I want to make sure your listeners understand there's a difference so we can dive into that later. But that's when I really realized. That might not stop beeping. It's a rice heater because I'm heating rice.

Honestly, don't even edit that out just so y'all can know. I'm domestic. Your boy be cooking. Okay? I be cooking. out here. I'd be cleaning two. I'm house trained, but

no, honestly, I should probably go check on that rice so I don't burn. Keep this rolling. I'll be right back. Nobody likes burnt rice. I'll have a sip of my rosé while you go. I'm in quarantine mode over here. I can't go anywhere, so I'm doing the quarantine thing where I have a glass of rosé at 3.30 in the afternoon.

As you should. As you should. I hope you'll keep following that. Is the rice okay? Oh, yeah, it's on the timer. It's on a timer. We're great. I'm not that pro, right?

I use a rice cooker, okay? Don't get a twisted, ladies. I was going to say, that's so funny. I've got minute rice over here for living that hotel life. Can't do it. You're better than me. Gosh, I'm about to do it for a while. Anyways, where were we?

Difference between being racially ignorant, race,ly insensitive, and yes. So, and for those. missed it and I'll just kind of rehash when I did after the final rose and I just wanted people to know that you can be racially ignorant and not necessarily be racist. How do I know this?

Because the 12 year olds that I went to middle school with, they couldn't even define racism. They don't know what racism is, but they were the same 12 year olds that were saying, Emmanuel, you don't even dress like you're black. Emmanuel, you're like an Oreo, black on the outside, white on the inside. That's racially ignorant.

That is being ignorant to the aspect of It's being ignorant to the fact that there are varieties of black culture, black people, black things, black speech. So you can be ignorant of something without being racist. To be racist, I believe there are three primary components. Power, privilege, and prejudice. Power, privilege, prejudice in order to fully have and display racism, particularly as a group of people. So we have to better understand as a society. That's why if you didn't notice, if you rewatch or re-listen to my comment,

conversation with Rachel, I never said racist. And even when talking to the producers, I edited out racist. Because as you know, doing shows, scripts are already written for you. And whenever I saw racist pictures or racist remarks, I said, no, we are going to change that. Because I wanted to make sure the world did not think, especially coming from me, that she was racist. And there has to be a distinction made at all times in society. People can for sure be racist and when they are call them out for it 100% of the time. But there has to be a distinction made. Yeah. Yeah. I actually loved watching you do that by the way and welcome to the Bachelor family. I hope we see you again because you were really good at it. And again, the same way people watch your YouTube, the same reason

freaking Oprah's team is reaching out to you because you draw people in in a way where I like, I want to learn more. And you're somebody who just breaks it down in a way. where it makes so much sense. And it was so cool to see you up there having these conversations in the Bachelor world because there's been years and years and years of people wanting these conversations, but nobody doing anything about it. And yes, they've made changes and change. It doesn't happen overnight.

But to see you up there having that conversation with Rachel and Matt was so powerful. And I know, like, in that time, I remember you asking, and I'm sure you've answered this before, but I remember you asking, is this something? that you can forgive and move past to Matt, and he said no, and now they're back together. I wanted to know if you have thoughts on that, but I'm sure again, you're... Do I? Yeah, I need to know. And I mean, my listeners are obviously Bachelor Nation supporters.

And, I mean, you were actually a big reason why I said yes to the hosting role, because it made me think that I am being part of a change, that they will have more important conversations, that they will move in the right direction, and that I could be a part of that. so thank you. And also, how do you feel about Matt James? So I haven't commented on this publicly yet. So this will be, I guess, my first public comment. I was like assuming you've talked about this. Okay. No, I haven't. I haven't said anything on. I've hit up Matt privately, hit up Rachel privately, but never publicly. I'm happy for them. And I'm happy for them because, and Matt, he won't be mad at me. And if he is, it's all good. Because, man, I knew they at least needed to be together in the interim.

And why? Because he fell in love with an individual. And he fell in love with an individual not cognizant of the individual's past actions. Now, the individual's past actions don't necessarily define the individual in the present unless that's still who she is. Right. And so as I'm sitting there asking Matt, all these questions, I'm just like, He's not going to be with her right now because he can't, and I will say what Matt couldn't say, and maybe Matt wouldn't want to say, but as a black man, y'all don't understand, and I say y'all being non-black men who are listening to this, if you decide to pursue a relationship in that climate with this white woman, with the whole world calling her races, now everybody's calling you all types of names that I won't even utter on this. Matt's hands were tied.

His hands were tied. I tried to untie them, you know, I asked the question, I don't think they ended up running it, but I asked like, hey, would you be in this relationship if not for pressure from the black community or like, what is the pressure from the black community that's causing you to be in this, that's causing, keeping you from this relationship? Like, I tried to let the world know, like, hey, Matt, blink twice. Like, because I feel like, it's impossible. And I'm speaking as a black man. It's, it would have been impossible for him to leave the stage with her without getting crucible. But what people did not see is after the cameras cut, they left arm over arm. Like they walked off the state. Now, she was crying and he wouldn't console her in front of the cameras. But as soon as they left, it was his arm over hers and there was still so much affection.

Right. So I'm beyond thrill. I posted their pictures on my Instagram story the other day. Like, it's just, it makes me happy to see them happy, obviously, and let's me. make sure we say this, Rachel, continuing to do the growth, continuing to learn, continuing to grow. It's by no means the end for Rachel and her progress, and I think she would admit that. But I didn't want the polarization of racism in our society to keep them from being together.

That is so fair and very well said. And I mean, like you said, if she continues and she is continuing to do all this work and And, like, obviously, Matt is there to support her and she's there to support Matt. Like, you can't fight love at the end of the day, you know? And if people are growing and evolving through that and they can do it together, that's really impactful. One more thing. Like, was it a book first or did the show turn into a book, right? The show turned into a book.

Okay. And now you have written a children's book through it. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. I just, honestly, in this, when this airs, I have a segment after this with a non-for-profit called Project Open Books, where they have conversations about giving books to people who need to read and connect to a character that's bisexual, gay, lesbian, and trying to get it into schools. And I think it's important to start with children's books. And I think it's so great that you did a children's book. a difference between conversations with a black man and a black boy? So uncomfortable conversations with a black boy is what I, the conversations I wish I could have had when I was around 10 to 14, 12 to 16. After I posted, Caitlin, how so many people told me, Emmanuel, you're like an Oreo, black on the outside, white on the inside. So many members of the Latinx community reached out and said, well, I used to hear I'm like a coconut, brown on the outside, white on the inside. Members of the Asian community messaged me and said, I heard I I was like a banana, yellow on the outside, white on the inside.

I was like, Caitlin, this is wild. Like, here I am thinking I was the only one, or black people were the only one subject to this kind of insensitivity, maturing itself into racism. But, like, we're all going through it. So how does it differ? It's essentially a conversation that I wish my white brothers and sisters ages 12 to 16, 10 to 14, knew of and could have. And it's those lessons that they would have benefited from. It's the words that I couldn't say at 12 that I now can say at 30 in 12-year-old comprehension. That's incredible.

Congratulations on that because, again, there's hope, of course, so much, you know, we've come a long ways, but still so much to go. The conversations really do start with our next generation. And so to write a children's book, I think is obviously going to be impactful. And lastly, I think just in general, What can, you know, I always want to know what I can be doing better. I always know, want my listeners to know what they can be doing better. You know, we all like to believe that we're not part of the problem, but that's because of our white privilege.

And I want you to share what we can do better, maybe resources, books, anything that you think, even if it's just a simple like having the conversation, whatever you think. If you go to business school, Caitlin, or if you ever take a marketing class, One of the first lessons you will learn is find a need and fill it. It's like the first lesson in business. You want to create something, find a need, fill it. It's how Uber exists. It's how taxis exist.

How hotels exist. How Airbnb exists. Find a need and fill it. So what can you, the listener, be doing better? The same thing you do in business. Find a need and fill it. It's too easy if I just say, oh, go buy my book, which you should do. But I don't necessarily need you to anymore.

Right. But like, you know, we made the New York Times bestsellers list. Thank God. We're there. But like, as you should. Like, those are things, but that's easy. Caitlin, what is the need? It's finding.

Because my, how do we have been an ally to me after episode one of uncomfortable conversations with a black man? My friend who's a producer, Katelyn, text me and said, Hey, I saw that you've been doing this yourself. I'd love to help you. So they helped me lay down music for episode two. My friend, who was a wedding video. said, hey, we'll do it. Better than yet, the studio space is owned by a white woman.

And she said, as long as you're doing your projects here, I will make it free. Incredible. Find a need and fill it. All these different people found needs. These needs look different. One was helping me produce. One was lending me your space for free. But guess what?

Now we're primetime Emmy nominated, and I made sure to reach out to the studio owner. And because of her willingness to lend me her space free of charge, she helped contribute to potentially winning a Emmy for some meaningful project. Wow. Being an ally looks different, but it's all about finding a need and filling it. I mean, you're just the best. I just listen. I get like emotional just listening to you talk because everything you say is powerful,

and I feel like that's a word that gets overused with you. Everyone's always like, powerful, powerful, that's powerful. But I truly mean it, like, I feel something. Every time I watch any interview you're in, I can't say it enough, just how. awesome it is to just have your voice in this world. And I just thank you. And I want everybody who isn't following you. I'm sure they all are already. Where can they find you? Instagram, Twitter, at Emmanuel Ocho, E-M-M-M-A-N-U-E-L-O-C-H-O. And I'm around. Just turn on the TV and hopefully I'll be there sooner or later.

I see you everywhere. It's incredible. Thank you so much. I know you're so busy for taking the time to talk to me today and for, of course, just always continuing to do important work and share with us what you know. Kaylin, it's great to finally meet you. Until next time, my friend. Absolutely. Thank you so much and I will see you around. Hey, Vino's, don't leave yet. I have something else extremely important you need to hear. And that's the winner of June's Pump Your Tires, LGBTQ2 plus small business with an overwhelming amount of nominations, Project Open Books. Okay, I'm so stoked this business one because it's also a not-for-profit. Like, talk about doing good in the world. Project Open Books promotes access to age-appropriate LGBTQIA plus books and stories to create

more inclusive spaces. So whether that be in a home, a classroom, an office, or in a place of gathering. I had the absolute pleasure of talking to the president and founder Joshua Lambert and hearing more about his past, his struggles he had growing up, not being able to relate to most of the reading material available to him and how when he did find that, how it changed his perspective and his mission with Project Open Books. He is such a doll. I just really think this is a really important conversation. Hi. Hello. Oh my gosh, how are you? I'm doing really good. How are you, Caitlin? Oh, my gosh. I'm so good, and I'm so excited to meet you. I'm seriously so inspired by you and this non-for-profit you've created.

Like, first of all, it's so nice to meet you. You are so sweet. And congratulations to you and your business, like Project Open Books, literally had 100 plus nominations for our June, Pump Your Tires for LGBTQ2 plus own businesses like you have the most incredibly supportive following yes i i i want to say i'm shocked that we had that many not that many nominations but i it doesn't come as a surprise because our our followers my family my friends professional colleagues are so supportive of project open books that um we were nominated by somebody who i don't know which i think i'm most excited about And I saw the notification come through and I was like, I'm going to just share this.

Let's just let's see what happens. Let's do this. And we had just such a great response. It was actually really exciting to watch. And thank you for, you know, even making this possible. Oh, of course. That's awesome. I like this is one of my favorite things to do on the podcast is give people a platform that

are just so deserving and spreading the word. And obviously you're doing an incredible job on your own with that. But tell me more about you as a human being. And why are you so amazing? Like, how did you grow up and how do you have a really supportive family? And just tell me kind of about your background and self-discovery and everything. Yeah, absolutely. So my name is Josh.

I use he-him pronouns. I am a cisgendered gay man. And I am from a small town in Connecticut. I have a super supportive and accepting family. And I think that it's important to say that, you know, because I'm going to share a story with you that you might even think, like, well, why were you so mysterious in your teenage years in terms of your, you know, identity and your sexuality? But I think everyone's journey is super unique and that process to kind of coming to terms with perhaps your sexuality or even a gender

identity is a very intimate experience with yourself. And it took me a little while to be able to come to terms with who I was as a person and how I was going to live my life very openly and proud. And so when I was in high school, when I was questioning, I'm super small town. I went to school, public school, 18 years with the exact same 118 people. Wow. Not much change. I know there's smaller towns out there, but even that felt like I was living under a microscope and everybody knew everything about each other.

And so as I was starting to question who I was and if I was gay or not, I often looked to the internet for resources. I often would truly Twitter and Tumblr were like my go-to for everything under the sun, especially when I was in high school in the 2010s. And I ended up one day realizing that there's not a lot, but there are books out there. Wasn't a big reader, but I was like, maybe it would make sense for me to pick up a book, perhaps with a gay lead character and see how I can connect or relate to that. Like what level of connection might I have with that experience? that's being written and shared by the author. And so I started to, once I had my own car and my own job and my own debit card,

I started to purchase books online back pre-pandemic when like buying things online and then picking up in the store wasn't super popular. And I started to buy books at Barnes & Noble. And I would drive the 15 minutes across the river to go to Barnes & Noble where I would run to the store, run right up to the front desk, like hoping not to run into anybody. I'd pick up my order in a very ambiguous bag that just had Barnes Nobles on it. And I would go home and at night I would stay up late reading these books. And I just completely fell in love with characters.

And it helped me process what I was feeling. And it really gave me, I feel like, a very positive light and perspective in terms of, you know, what, how was I feeling and how can I process those thoughts? And it was a very, I think, a healthy step on that journey of self. discovery and identity that I had. And so I know that was kind of a long-winded answer. No, I love every second of it. I'm like, this is amazing. Yeah. So I basically just started buying books on the side as I was trying to figure out who I was. And it took me about two years to actually come out publicly. I left my little town in Connecticut. I went to Florida Gulf Coast

University in Fort Myers, Florida. It was actually the very first place that I was never closeted. I just showed up. And I was like, I'm just going to be me and, you know, should. certain things come up. I'm just going to be super open and honest with myself and with those around me. And it really was a positive experience. It was, it was quite, it was nice. And I know that's not the case for everybody, which is part of the reason why I wanted to start project open books. Like, I look back on my journey, my own experience, and I see the privilege and the opportunity that I had. But I also feel super grateful and lucky to be surrounded by a really supportive family and friend network that when I was ready to publicly come out to them, it was like nothing

changed. It was very, very supportive and really nice. So I'm trying to take my experience and use that to lift up other people who might be struggling in their current situation. That is beautiful and I love this. And I mean, did you find it challenging to find that kind of material in high school? Is that part of the reason as well? Yes. I'm so happy you said that. So yes, yes, and yes. One of the reasons why I wanted to start project open books was because I recognize that access to age appropriate LGBTQ plus content is really scarce. It's scarce in your school libraries. Your teacher might not even have inclusive literature perhaps to this community in their classroom library. If you're not out, you know, maybe having those books in your house is a little bit of a red flag for you. Like,

you're not yet ready to share that side of you. You're not yet really, really ready to be open and honest with those around you about that part of your life. And so I wanted to be able to create a space where people could come, you know, project open books and request books for free. And we would send them to you. No, no cost. It could be in discrete packaging right to where you are. So if you don't have a Barnes & Noble that carries inclusive literature, if you aren't in a school district that's socially progressive and open and accepting to the LGBTQ plus community that you can find comfort in these stories and they can just be sent to you. And so, So when we were starting Project Open Books, though, I was like, I really want to find some

concrete research about children's literature, young adult, all the way to children's picture books for the LGBTQ plus community. So statistics sound like diversity inclusion for the community within children's literature. And there's actually this study, there's this library that's part of the University of Wisconsin network. It's at their Madison campus. It's called the Cooperative Children's Book Center. And they produce diversity statistics. They've been doing this for many years since the 90s, but it wasn't until 2018, 2019 that they decided to extend their diversity statistics to be inclusive of the LGBTQ plus community. So everything from stories with gay characters, lesbian, non-binary, transgender, gender queer, asexual,

intersex, all of those identities within the community. They started to survey the books that they were receiving. So in this particular year, they received 3,500 books. Wow. And they were looking at all those children's books and they were then begin to pull out ones that had significant LGBTQ plus content. So that could be like a main character. It could be a secondary lead character in a book. It could be perhaps a character that has two dads or two moms or something under the sun that's very inclusive, but it has kind of a strong presence to the storyline.

And what they found was that out of their 3,500 books that they surveyed that year, again, these books range from children's picture books all the way up to young adult novels, that only 3.68% included significant LGBTQ plus content. And so out of 3,500, when you really start to kind of break down the percentage, so yes, 3.68% included significant LGBTQ plus content. Well, the LGBTQ plus community is really diverse and quite large. And so when you really start to break it down, only about 16 books that year that they surveyed included significant content inclusive to the lesbian audience. Only 14 was inclusive to the gay audience. 16 to the bisexual audience and only four books to the transgender and non-binary community. And when you really start to hone in on a microscope to get a little more granular with that data, you start to see, well, if that's the access level at this massive cooperative children's book center, what does access look like for somebody who lives in a more perhaps a conservative community in the South? Or

what does it look like for a person who is maybe at a Title I school that's underfunded in a city? anywhere truly. So when you start to think about that, access is so null. And we've had many conversations, wonderful conversations with incredible educators out there. We are glad to work with teachers and other youth service professionals to help them diversify their own libraries within their spaces. But a lot of them will tell us their districts, you know, are trying, but there's not enough money. Or their districts uncomfortable about talking about sexuality, sexuality and gender identity or there can't possibly be children's books that are that are appropriate for this conversation and so through those conversations uh what started as you know project open books

just trying to send a book to a person who might be home we've been able to collaborate a lot with teachers and educators to have really awesome conversations to be able to talk about the wonderful children's books the wonderful middle grade books and then of course the incredible young adult novels that are out there. And so one of our roles is to help educate people on what is available. That was going to be one of my questions was how can you and like even myself advocate for getting these books into schools. And that's interesting that you say some people just, you know, feel uncomfortable. I don't know why that shocks me. Of course people are going to have those thoughts. But that's that's so incredible that you're able to have these conversations and open

it up to open their eyes a little more to that as well. Yes. So, you know, we have over 120 books that we have brought in and out of our library. And that's all available online at our website, patrickopenbooks.com. I think one of the biggest things that we can do just as regular people is support queer authors. Yeah. Oh, yeah. We need to show them that we need to one respect and uplift queer authors by purchasing their novels and their books to show them. and that this is a profitable avenue for them to go down. And I know it sounds, of course, we don't, using the word profit and then marginalize readers and writers sounds kind of off.

But I want more people writing queer stories. I don't want more than 3.68% of books that, you know, go through these studies to be representative. You know, I want more representation. So let's support queer authors and let's advocate. Let's have conversations with our teachers, with our student teachers, with our, if you of children, you know, have a conversation with the teacher. Ask them, you know, what do you have for queer literature within your classroom? You know, how can I be a, how can I help you?

How can I help connect you with project open books? You know, I think it's also important to just like, in general, advocate for the LGBTQ plus community. There's still so much work to be done, and I'm sure that's a kind of a common thread that, you know, it said often, we're not, we got marriage equality, we're at the top of it. We need the equality act to ask. We need people, you know, out there fighting in general for just inclusion and equity within the community. But I think books is such a great place to start, especially within shared spaces, because if a young person who might not identify within the LGBT post community, if they have positive exposure to what it means to be non-binary or what it means for someone to have two dads or two moms, that just creates a more

equitable and inclusive community to live in. And I think that those are building blocks that can kind of start for people at any age truly. And there's really a lot of wonderful books that just do just that and are perfect for any age. I love reading LGBTQ plus children's books. They're just the cutest ever. I'm trying to remember one of my fiancé's friends from like back home wrote a children's book for on all of this. And it was so I actually still have it in my podcast office back home. I'll have to send you a picture of it because I'm.

Oh, I would love that. it was i read it probably five times being like this is incredible and it did get my brain thinking a little bit more that way for because you know i could think about so many things for when i have kids and how you know i'm i'm interviewing emmanuel a cho who is just does these interviews on uncomfortable conversations with a black man and i had the biggest aha moment today with because you know i want to think about how i'm raising my kids and i always thought in my brain or when i heard people say it like i don't see color or I want my kids to be colorblind. And he was like, I actually don't agree with that because I think it's beautiful to see different colors and different types of people and acknowledge, you know, the unique differences. And I was like, wait, that's incredible. And I think that's, you know, having those conversations with their kids or having them read books. I think that's huge. It's so important. And I just wanted you to break down, like, if you were to describe to somebody what the project Open Books is, like, how would you describe it?

Yes. Okay. So project, and it's always, it's funny because this is like something I've been so close with for the last year and a half. And I always am like stumbling to explain what it is. That's good. So Project Open Books, we are a non-profit organization. We are committed to improving and promoting access to LGBTQ plus age appropriate books, books and stories for all people. We want to remove costs as the barrier. So we provide books for free. We're completely individual donor and small business funded and our ultimate goal is really to just give the give the gift of a book that could be directly to a person to an educator to another youth service professional all all with

intent to create more inclusive spaces for people so that they feel accepted you know on their own journey of self exploration and that they feel welcomed and connected to other people who might have experienced something similar that's amazing I just I love that you're doing this and I know that on Instagram you you were saying you can hardly keep up with the demand, which is an incredible problem. So, I mean, how are you able to meet the demand or where do you get your funding from? Yeah, so we're completely donor funded, which means that all of our money at this point has come from people who believe in our mission. There's a couple different ways to participate with project open books. We're on Venmo and PayPal. We also have an Amazon book

wish list of books that are requested frequent, pretty frequent. So we can kind of keep up with the demand there. We have had some small business support too, which is greatly appreciated within some specific communities who would like to see more resources like this become available to people within their community. But since mid-February, we've sent out 400 books to people in 17 states in three countries. And we, you know, we're small, but it's just not slowing down. I have 10 more books coming in this week to then send out to people in five states. And what's really most exciting about this is just to see, you know, how widespread this could be. You know, should we be fortunate enough to be able to continue to receive funding from people who believe in our mission

and really just to see the spot on the map begin to just like fill in of all the different places that have heard of us and that have, you know, gone this step into requesting a book or to sending us a nice message. And our favorite is hearing from people that have had an experience. That was very impactful to them and why representation matters to them. And I think it's so important that we share these stories because I think that that's like truly at the end of the day what makes us all, you know, better people. But what really creates a community and community is so important, especially, you know, when there's so many, you know, different, you know, there's a lot of intersectionality out there in terms of identities and people's relationships

with themselves and with other people. And I think it's, you know, there's power in that. There's power in hearing each other's stories. There's power in like truly listening to each other and banding together to just make this really incredible awesome space for all of us to live in. I love that. I am all about connection and community and finding your community and empowering others to, you know, think outside of their own community. So I love that. And, like, where can people find this information for everything that you're doing? I mean, I know you have Instagram a website so that they can see your Benmo,

participate, share their stories, everything like that. Yeah. So everything is on our website. It's www. www. projectopbooks with an S.com. And so project openbooks.com. We're also on Instagram and Facebook at Project OpenBooks.

But our website really has everything. You can go there. You can browse our library. Again, we have about 120 book titles that are on the site that are available for requests, ranging from children's books, so ages 0 to 8, middle grade, which is 9 to 13 years old, young adult, which is 14 up. And then we also have an adult section for adult novels for our adult readers. And so we're super excited there.

You can learn about ways to contribute also on the website. You can learn about some professional resources that we have are available. and if you want to just chat about a collaboration or you want to share a story with me, I think there's a form you could fill out to contact me directly too. So it's really just all the websites there. You can find our social handles and we would love to chat. Amazing. Wow.

I love it. Thank you for the work that you're doing. And I'm glad I could, you know, share your voice on this podcast. And it's so cool to see how many people nominated you. So thank you again and good luck with everything. and we'll definitely keep the word out and keep it going. Thank you so much, Caitlin. I really appreciate it.

I know you're very busy, so I really appreciate you taking time to chat with me. Oh my gosh, of course. I'm never too busy for important work. Thank you so much. And again, good luck with everything. Thank you so much. I'm Caitlin Bristow.

I'll see you next Tuesday. Thanks for listening to Off the Vine with Caitlin Bristow. Get new episodes every Tuesday, exclusively on podcast1.com, the Podcast One app and subscribe on Apple Podcasts.