Off The Vine with Kaitlyn Bristowe - Grape Therapy: Clayton Speaks Out

Episode Date: March 10, 2022

Kaitlyn is going straight to the source as The Bachelor himself, Clayton Echard, joins her on the mic to talk about what we all saw on our screens this week. It definitely hasn’t been an easy journey for him, and in this episode he is opening up about what he was thinking and feeling in the moment versus what he now thinks watching it back. Kaitlyn is asking the questions we all want answers to: What would he have done differently? Did he pick the fantasy suite order? Is he happy? If anyone can relate to the light at the end of The Bachelor tunnel, it’s Kaitlyn. Then, the ShrinkChicks (licensed therapists, Bachelor fans, and podcasters) join Kaitlyn to break down her conversation with Clayton and interpret what we’ve seen so far this season. MERRELL - Shop outdoor gear on Merrell.com.  TALKSPACE - Sign up today at talkspace.com and get $100 off your first month with promo code vine.  PROGRESSIVE - Get a quote today at Progressive.com . See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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Drink to your confessions and hear what you have to say about anything Bachelor. Let's shake it up some more. Here's Caitlin. All right. Welcome to Grape Therapy. I'm your host, Caitlin Bristow. I am really put in the therapy in grape therapy today. you know, one of the most dramatic weeks in Bachelor history, and I had the opportunity to go

straight to the source, the little sad source. I feel so sad for him. In this episode, I break it all down with The Bachelor himself, Clayton, in all seriousness, this was a really tough week, and it was so good to sit down and hear his side of the story and work through some of his emotions with him. We talk about what he would have done differently if he got to choose the fantasy date order, how he's getting through all of this. And Clayton lets me know, know if he is happy or not. I could tell you in this moment, he's not doing so well, but I think he's going to be okay, which is truly all that matters. And then we have a little bonus at the end. I talk to Emily and Jennifer, they are licensed therapists and fans of The Bachelor to break

it all down. They had some really incredible advice. I really hope Clayton listens to this. They also have an incredible podcast called The Shrink Chicks. So please check that out. They're incredible. Before we get into the interview, I just want to say, be kind. Give people grace. I, too, experienced, you know, falling in love with more than one person, intimacy with more than one person. And it's just so difficult being the lead role. I think Clayton is trying to handle everything as best as he can. But I don't think he's ever experienced hate in his life until now. And he's the kind of guy who, you know, of course he wants to be loved. And I don't think he's feeling that right now. You know, TV is not fully reality people. So there are two sides

or more than that to every story. So let's hear from Clayton and then stay tuned for what the therapists think when they break it all down. Hey, Caitlin. How are you? Not good.

Yeah. I didn't think it was going to be this bad. I'm so sorry. Like, I only have 30 minutes with you and I want to actually talk about how you're doing because I don't want to make this about me because it's not at all. I just want to tell you how much I can relate

to you because I was like really not okay with my season. I was in a very dark place. I slept with more than one person. I hurt people's feelings. I got dragged on the internet. I was like a shell of myself. And it is the hardest thing to go through. And people have no idea because there's so much more than what you see on TV and it's taken out of context. And it's just such a hard thing to try and navigate and then to be on so many interviews having to go along with this narrative not be able to like tell you know like what's happening because we all don't know yet and i'm just so sorry that you're going through such a hard time and i hope you know that it will pass do you feel that there's light at the end of the tunnel or are you not feeling that yet oh there's always

light in the tunnel i mean i'm a very positive person uh so i know that ultimately i'll be okay I've learned a ton of life lessons. I've said it all throughout the season, although I couldn't talk about specifics, but I am a happier person because of the growth that I've experienced. And this is certainly probably the lowest of the lowest points that I've had in this entire journey. And I know that I just have to put my head down and take the beating. And if I do that, I'll come out the other side stronger.

And so I see that and I know things always get better. You know, they just sometimes get worse before they get better. Oh, yeah, absolutely. I mean, you can only go up from rock bottom. So there's that if that's how you're feeling. But it's just, it's so hard. And I'm, I thank you for even like doing this with me today because it's probably the last thing you want to do is talk more about it. But I just like giving people a chance to have their own voice and talk through some things.

And maybe by the end of this, you could feel a little bit better from everything. But you said you just want to keep your head down and take the beating. Are you feeling like you're getting a beating? like online is it from the women like how are you where are you getting it from yeah well right now again i just i can't i can't even open social media i can't at this point i mean people are in my email at this point people are getting my phone number somehow uh and i'm just being attacked on all ends right now and again i'm not i say attacked i don't want to sit here and i'm not the victim i'm not a victim so i don't want people to sit in and think i'm trying to make people feel bad for me

I'm a grown man. I can ultimately handle this as well. And this two shall pass, like you said. But, yeah, I mean, a lot of it to me, it is frustrating to see, I get if you're upset with me. But for you to sit here and say, you're a POS, you're a, you know, I can't even say the words, F you, go die, like, and just all of these comments coming in every two, every minute. I'm getting 100 messages a minute in my DMs. And it's, there is some positivity.

There's people saying, hey, I get where you're good. you were coming from but 98% of it is just people telling me that I'm a terrible human being I don't deserve to be on this earth I don't deserve to be around these women I just don't deserve anything and they hope they wish that the worst falls upon me and that's tough can I can I like beg this of you can I can I ask you to do something what is that stay out of your DMs do not go shopping for paying no I know that's why I was I know and I've I've backed off it the tough part is is that people are getting a hold of my number and email now and no I I have definitely had to step away and I a thousand percent after last night I told myself okay that you

really actually need to step off now and I and I could handle it reading the DMs but at this point like no it was putting me in a bad spot I was getting a major headache I was getting into a depressed state and I realized like now you can't read these comments you're going to spiral even even down farther yeah yeah exactly it's just it's sad because I don't know if people hold the bachelor to a different standard than they used to I don't understand where all of this hate is coming from it's like but it's it seems to be every year people just hate on people on the bachelor and bachelor and it's so crazy I don't think it's ever going to stop and it'll just be like it's you, you're the target right now. It's an easy target for people. And then next season,

it will be another one. Obviously, there's so much to unpack from like the last two nights. And I don't want to spend too much time on the women tell all because it just felt icky. And there's a lot of nasty things happening there, which is a whole other story. But I just have a few questions and want to give you the opportunity to obviously answer them the way you'd like. But if you could go back and relive your date with Susie, what would you do differently? I wouldn't have been so emotional. And granted, yeah, I mean, that was probably three-hour conversation and they showed what they could in the 20 minutes. They captured. They did a good job of capturing the essence of the entire conversation. You know, we were very cordial at the start. We were. We were back

and forth talking, understanding each other's perspectives, or hearing them out at least. But then as I continued to try to see if she would work past it and she told me I just can't, Clayton, like I cannot see myself moving forward with you. After the third or fourth time, I realized that there was nothing I could do, that this connection was over. And at that point, I felt, I did feel that she wasn't fighting. Again, this is, and I'm just saying from what I felt then. It's different than how I feel now. But how I felt then, I felt that she wasn't fighting for me. She wasn't trying to make it work. And as she stepped aside and I went outside, I had these dangerous thoughts creep in that I was afraid from the day that I came at was a lot of people

come here for their own personal gain. They don't come here for love. They come here to push their careers to get more followers. And so I kept telling myself, I'll weed them out. I'll weed those ones i'll be able to see it from a mile away and some of them were blatantly obvious some weren't so obvious and sarah was somebody that i still at this day i mean she i think she made she made a mistake of lying to the women to try to get them to leave i don't know what her true intentions were if she was trying to get them to leave so that she could like her meet the two of us could be together to give her a better chance or if she was trying to get them all to leave and then she's going to leave on her own as well but i she fooled me and i and i and i at that point i'm like wow i almost

part of the hometowns she was playing this game so could anybody else be playing this game and so when i went outside and i was away from susy that's that thought came rushing in like dude the reason why she's not trying to fight for you is because she doesn't want to be here she's trying to find her out and she realized that since you just told her you love her she's like oh great the only like he's going to move forward with me unless i cut this off now that was my thought then that is not how i feel about it now that's not even how i felt about it later that that that night as I had time to reflect. But in that moment, I convinced myself that the reason why she's doing this is because she has her own agenda. And once I got to that point and I

walked back inside, you could see it in my face. My demeanor changed. I was, I had shut down at that point. I asked her one more time if she'd be willing to work through it. She said, no, I just can't. And then I just went into this downward spiral. And I said, I, then that's when I got to the point of saying, I don't believe anything you're saying anymore. I don't know who I'm looking at and we're done because I just was like, I can't hear anything else that you have to say. You, it's over. And people say that I ended it, but to me, her saying I can't work through.

It was like she ended and I just realized we're not getting anywhere. I need to, we need to just stop because I could end up saying something more hurtful. I could end up, you know, we could both end up doing something more that we regret. Let's just stop this now. and just be done. Yeah, it's so scary when you're in the position where you're thinking about, you know, like either intimacy or proposing or like spending your life with someone and you're trying to compartmentalize each relationship and take them as far as you can to really know the person. So when you're questioning, like if you, if you have questions in the back of your head,

you don't really have time to like, you know, reflect and like navigate on those feelings. You kind of have to react in the moment. So if you were like, maybe this girl is, is here to become the bachelorette and maybe she's used me this whole time and maybe she's gotten to where she needs to be to exit. Like if you're in that moment and you only have a certain amount of time with her, emotions are running so high. Things are said. Things happen. And like you said, you had time to reflect on it later. And then you're like, no, that wasn't the case. But at that point, it's too late. So it's like, how do you move forward from that? And if you knew that intimacy was a deal breaker for Susie, would you have not been intimate with the other girls?

Yeah, my answer to that as I thought that through was, I don't think I would have been intimate with anybody. Yeah. But with that, I wouldn't have proposed to anybody because I'm not going to get engaged to someone if I don't know if we have sexual compatibility. Physical intimacy is critical for me for a long lasting relationship. I think anyone that says it's not, I don't agree. And maybe some people find a way that to have a long, loving relationship with

out physical intimacy, that's just not how it works for me. And so I could have, I believe that in that moment, I would have said, okay, I'm just not going to be physical intimate with any of these women, but I'm not going to get engaged now to any of them. I'm just going to walk out of here, dating, and then we can see if we have that other side of this relationship, that get compatibility. Right. Yeah.

This month to celebrate International Women's Day, Merrill wants you to get outside. It's the most simple form of self-love and self-care, getting some fresh air and movement makes all the difference. Merrill wants all women to take some time for themselves and to get outdoors this month. And we heard a rumor that later this season, Merrill is launching an awesome hike club to show how women take it to the trails. We can't wait to learn more and are keeping our eye on Merrill.com while also shopping for our favorite outdoor gear there. Now back to Off the Vine Grape Therapy. It's so hard because I, like I was so in the moment with each relationship that I wasn't thinking about the end.

I was thinking about right now where I'm at. This is how I feel. I owe it to each relationship to give it my best to really take it as far as I can because you do care about these people. And it's not like you're like, oh, get away from me. I'm done with you. Like you actually care. You've gone this far with them.

You actually have love for them. And you become intimate with them. And you're trying to literally find someone to spend the rest of your life with. So to me, it makes so much sense, but you're not really thinking about, like, okay, now I have to go, you know, like, especially if you didn't know, these, these boundaries were not set for all of you before the fantasy suites. Like, you guys should have talked about this before that happened. Did that conversation just not ever come up? No, it didn't. It didn't come up. And, well, I had all three of the women said, I want you to explore the other relationships fully, almost verbatim. So I felt that that, I assume. And this is where I made one of my biggest mistakes. And I wish going forward, what I learned was ask more questions and never assume because I assume given the environment that we are in, me being a bachelor in this environment dating 30 women, that these women, the real world rules did not apply.

There was some leeway because this is a very particular environment. And so I looked at it like if these women will stick around and watch me kiss other women in front of them, which that would never be acceptable in the real world. And these real world boundaries are kind of set aside, and there's a new playing field in this environment. And if you're going to date 30 women, you owe it to compartmentalize the relationships and be with only them and think only about them when you're with them. And then when you go to the next woman, you give your all to them as well. And you don't allow thoughts of another woman to creep in your head when you're with that person. And I compartmentalized, I guess, too well to the point where I was just all in with these women. And that was the thing as people said, oh, you know, he's, I saw this last night.

He's saying the same thing to multiple women. I'm only one person. I mean, I don't have a different vocabulary depending on who I'm talking to. Yeah. So I felt these feelings of love and they were genuine. If anything, I felt so similar with every one of the connections that that's why the same things were being said because I felt that way genuinely. And the danger was that, yeah, as I stepped aside and when I was away from the women,

And then it hit me. I'm like, when I was sitting alone in interviews, when I was sitting alone in my room, that's when it hit me. I was like, you're in a deep spot. You're in a really bad spot. You've told three women now you're in love. And how do you think this is going to end? But in that moment, I thought, you're the batch.

Like, this is acceptable. These women are understanding. Susie was not. And as I look at it now from an outsider's perspective, watching it back last night, I watched it and I was embarrassed. I was shocked that I couldn't see her side. I remember thinking when I was there living it real time that she was emotionless, that she didn't care.

And that's the way I remember it. And as I watched it back last night, that's not the case at all. I'm like, wow, she's emotional. She's thoughtful. She's struggling a lot. But I couldn't see her perspective in that environment. But as I have now stepped outside of it, I'm like, dude, it's clear as day where she was coming from. And I feel terrible because I question this.

and woman of incredible character that should never have been questioned to that nature. But I let my emotions and I let the environment influence me. And what everyone saw last night was the result of that, my own actions and things that I now regret more than anything, the way I handled myself. Well, that's the thing is everyone is a victim to the environment that they're in. And when you're in that environment for as long as you are, without the people that ground you, without anything that makes you feel like you're, you know, making the right decisions and being able to bounce it off friends or talk through things with your family, when you don't have that and you're just day after day being produced, that is, I mean, that's the show. But it's, that's why this show has worked for so long because everyone gets into this position that by the end, they are struggling mentally. And that sadly makes for great TV, but it really affects you as a human being. And when you're removed from it and now you're home and you're watching it back and you're

able to see more clearly who people are and what they deserve and like how they reacted. And it's it's so different watching it back than actually experiencing it and so tough to relive at the same time. I also wanted to know if you got to pick the order of your fantasy suites. The answer is no, I didn't. But I don't know how to answer that question. I got asked out on an interview recently. They came in and they said,

we think you should do it this way and they convinced me. And I said, okay, and I believe that they're like, you need to keep your other options open. You need to keep everything open. So just like, don't close off because if you,

if Susie goes first, we're afraid you're going to close off. So I said, okay, then I will, I finally let them convince me. So if we hop back in this, I suppose again,

I'll say, like, yes, I did have a, I did have a say in it at the end of it all. Of course, you will always have a say it's, but you probably would have done things differently, maybe, because if you had taken Susie first and she set that boundary with you, things could have been so different. I believe that they would have been completely different. I really believe that if she had said that, I would have two things.

I would have either said, okay, I respect that. Thank you for telling me. And then I wouldn't have been intimate with anybody, including her. Yeah. Or I might have said, you know, I don't know if that's fair for you to give me this ultimatum. And if you can't see past that, then, like, we'll, we'll just have to leave. Like, we're just going to have to cut this off right, right, right then now. Yeah.

And it wouldn't, it would have been respectful in a way that we both could have said, okay, like, we're not on the same playing field. We, I believe I would have done the former, not the latter. But I at least know that it would have been a mature conversation through and through. Because we had the last fantasy suite, my actions were already, had already been taken. And at that point, all I could do. was tried to fight for her and tried to convince her

I didn't want to convince her that she had the wrong mindset I was just trying to convince her to give me another chance and that's something that I was very frustrated with in fact I'm almost fuming at it as people using this term gaslighting I look at I am so angry at the fact

that people were trying to say I'm a gaslighter because it couldn't be farther from the truth I was not I looked at the definition and it's that it's when you try to convince someone that their reality is not factual and that couldn't be farther from the truth. I did not try to convince her that her reality was not factual. I was just trying to convince her to give me another chance

and understand where I was coming from. Not once did I say the way you're thinking about this is wrong. You are in the wrong feeling this way. Never once did that. And that's something I do feel adamant about that I'm like, it does frustrate me. It does really strike a nerve because people throw these terms around with not even knowing the real definition.

And I'm like, go read the definition of book. gaslighting is quit using this word so loosely because you're using it correctly and I did not gaslight her. I did not manipulate her. I was immature in my approach and I allowed my emotions to come to attack her and I wish I wouldn't have done that. I became very, I was very upset and I let my motion get the best of me and I was, I'm a thousand percent the wrong for that. And I really wish I had never acted that way towards her. But I did not gaslight or manipulate her. And that is a thousand percent of fact. Yeah, that's fair. See, that's why I love podcasting because I'm like, I love that you can sit here and say that because so many people do throw that term around and so many people try and like, you know, label you as certain things. But they don't really know how many hours were actually in that, you know, filming moment, how you actually felt the fears you had, the insecurities you had about Susie being there to possibly be the Bachelorette or whatever you were feeling in that moment.

we didn't get to see that part of it. So I like hearing, obviously, your side of the story. And I don't know what happens because I'm watching spoiler-free. But apparently this, well, apparently the season is unspoilable. So by next Tuesday, will we know the outcome? I don't think so. Well, I'll say next Tuesday, sorry, after it all. Yeah, like the finale.

Yes. Yeah, people are going to have an answer. Yeah, it'll be at the end of next Tuesday. there will be a defendant answer. Yes. Yeah, because I've, I mean, I can't help but notice that I haven't seen a preview of the typical bachelor engagement scene. And you can't say much. But I know you're going through absolute hell right now. And I know a lot of it is words heard and people are trying to hurt you with their words. Please, please stay out of your DMs and stop reading things. But I know you're going through it from the episode and from watching back. And that was, you know, a couple months ago now. But right now in this moment in your life, like, I know. know you're having a hard time with social media, but are you happy in other ways if you put,

if you took social media out of this, are you happy? Yeah. And I've been saying this all season. I mean, again, I already lived all of this. So all these actions I took four months ago, I have already come to terms with them. I just have to be reminded of what I did now. But overall, I learned, I say, I really feel like I learned had five years of growth packed into two months. I was, I'm being held accountable for my actions. I had to accept responsibility for my actions, being in the role of the bachelor at the end of the day. And I want people to understand this. I am not making excuses. I take full blame. I don't want anyone to think that I'm trying to say, make an excuse. I'm just providing explanations right now. So people can understand what my

mindset was then and what it is now. But my mindset now is that I take from start to finish. everything I did was under my own volition. I made these decisions and I had to pay the price for them. But through all of that, I've grown stronger. I've learned from my mistakes and I'm a better person for it. And because of that, I'm happy. Yeah, that makes me happy for you. I'm excited to see what happens and just for it to be all over for you so that you can

move forward with whatever. I don't know if you're single. I don't know if you're working through things. I don't know if you're, like, whatever it is, I don't, I don't know, but I just am excited for you to, like, move forward and put this behind you, even though, because you will, I promise you, I was in the same position as you. And, like, people used to have to come and, like, try and drag me out of bed. And I'd be like, I'm not moving. And it has changed my life for the better. And you will look back on this experience and be like, that is a time in my life where I didn't think I could grow as much as I possibly did. You will learn so many life lessons. You will, it, it will be. the most pivotal thing that's ever happened to in your life and you will learn and grow from it and you will you will look back on it it might take a few years with grace you will yeah no i think uh perspectives everything and i just perceive it the way i do today but i believe that when i look back on this this will be one of the single greatest moments of uh character development of growth

that i've that i'll have ever experienced in my life and i will i am mentally stronger for it today even though I'm in the dumps maybe temporarily today, ultimately I will be able to look back at this and realize that it was maybe one of the best things that I could have ever done for me and for my relationship. You know, my relationships going forward. Yeah, absolutely. What advice would you give the next bachelor? Follow your heart. I did it. You know, and I think I know through all my actions at the end of the day, I have no regrets. I wish I'd have done things differently, absolutely. But my journey was 100% authentic. I did what I thought was best at the time. Absolutely. I wish I would have done it differently, now watching it back and seeing what happened.

But because I followed my heart, I stayed true to myself. And if you stay true to yourself, you can live with your actions at the end of the day. If you don't stay true to yourself, if you make decisions that aren't your own in that role, that will eat you up until the end of the day. You always wish that you never listened to anyone else other than your own because I was by myself in that environment. I had nobody else besides Jesse, which I trusted Jesse. but Jesse, again, couldn't be there for every conversation. I didn't have my family around.

People will see coming up here once I have my family, guess who keeps me, puts me in check, yesterday gives me a great perspective and really shows me that, hey, listen, man, you've got into deep, my family. Like, people are going to see my family hold me accountable. And because of that, yeah, I just hope that going forward, future bachelor, bachelor's, just stay true to yourself,

follow your heart, and you can always forgive yourself for that. but I think if you don't follow your heart, you'll have a hard time forgiving yourself and accepting accountability for your actions. Yeah, I went through a big shame spiral where now I was like, I shouldn't have made myself feel so bad for what I did because it led me to where I need to be and everything, you know, like even though I know you probably would go back and do things differently, you can't. So you have to react to what, you know, the consequences are now. But what are you doing to take care of yourself? What are you doing for your mental health right now in this stage of your life. I'm going to the gym right after this. One of my best ways to release stress is the gym,

such a healthy addiction. So I'm going to go there and I'm going to have probably one of the craziest workouts of my life. And then just taking my mind off it, I've been working on my personal training certificate. So I have about 25, 30 more hours of online course work. And I'm just going to dive into that and take my mind off this whole experience. Obviously, I'll answer the questions when I have to, but I don't want this to consume my thought process 24-7. I have to allow myself to decompress at certain points and just step away and focus on things moving forward that are going to benefit me. Yeah. Is there something you can, like, tell us about the next week to come, like something you could say about the episode that, I don't

know if it could be like a tease or what we're going to think or what we're going to feel watching the finale? I think nobody has the slightest. clue of what's going to happen. Again, I'm online a lot. And I'll just say that I haven't even seen one person get it right. So that's, I guess, the way I'll tease it is no, everyone's making these judgments and no one is even close to correctly pinning what happened. So I think I would just tell people to reserve judgment until they see the full story. And then they can, and then I think people will understand why I've done everything that I've done. Yeah. What do you think is something people don't know about you that you wish they did?

I just wish people understood that for me that I'm somebody that just loves and gives all my love out and sometimes it gets me in trouble, but I really just want to be a shining light around everybody that I, that I interact with. I want people to feel that having me in their corner makes, you know, is a good, is a good thing. And I want people to look, you know, turn to me for advice. And I want to build a strong support system of just love. I just want to spread love.

positivity all throughout. We all make mistakes for all human. People see that with me right now. And I just want people hopefully to see that through all of this, I will come out of this stronger. I will continue to be positive. And I won't let a temporary situation be the death of me. And I want people to understand that. Like, this is what I hope to show people is that no matter what you go through the lowest of lows, you can always come out of it. And that's what I hope people see. I mean, Clayton, you didn't murder anybody. Okay. You didn't murder. heard or anyone. The mistakes that you're making and dating are mistakes everyone would make while dating. You're just doing it on national television and it is the like biggest show for people

to watch and judge and poke fun at. But like you're being hated for following your heart. And at the end of the day, that's, I hope you could look back on it, be like, that's actually just silly. Like people are hating me for following my heart and making mistakes in relationships. like anyone try and date 30 women on national television with these incredible women that you're of course going to fall in love with you have three well now two incredible people left and like you're just trying to do your best so don't let the people who are hating on you for just trying to like do your best bring you down this hard i know it's hard it's easier said than done but like you're literally just falling falling in love and following your heart you're not

killing anybody. Goodness head I better myself. You hit all the nails in the head. So, yeah, I just hope people give me a little bit more patience and then cast your judgment when you see the full story is all I would tell people. Yeah, absolutely. Everyone has a right to not like me, but at least see the full story all the way through before you decide to make your final judgment.

Yeah, absolutely. Well, I'm thinking about you. And if you need to talk to anyone who has been there, I'm here for you. And thank you. I know it's so hard to like put yourself in a position to just keep talking about the same things when you're like feeling so low. But you just go crush that workout and there's anything else you wanted to say or get off your chest. Now is your time. Otherwise, I will let you go.

I think I've said most of, yeah, what I can say. Right now my words really mean nothing to anybody that was that's watching. It's going to be my actions that speak the loudest. So I'll let my actions speak those. speak for me going forward and then I will you know at AFR I'll use my words after everything's all said and done then I will let my word speak yeah absolutely okay well hang in there you're going to be okay and uh this will all just be a thing of the past soon and it's it's all going to be okay yeah I promise I know I believe you thank you Caitlin it's good talking to you

yeah of course anytime you just go uh go sweat it out good one. Okay, bye, Clay. Okay, a quick break to talk about something that's very important, and that's our self-worth and self-esteem. I think it's safe to say that we've all struggled with self-esteem before, but there's no one approach to facing all those challenges and works for everyone. Whatever challenges you're facing in your mental health, whether you're struggling with low self-esteem, body image issues, anxiety, or pretty much anything. There isn't a one-size fit-all solution, but there is talk space. Online therapy that gives you unlimited access to a licensed therapist so that you can set aside some time to put yourself first and work on whatever

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That's $100 off Talkspace.com, promo code Vine. This episode of Grape Therapy is brought to you by Progressive. What's one thing you'd like to purchase with a little extra savings, maybe a weighted blanket, smart speaker, that new self-care trend you keep hearing about? Well, Progressive wants to make sure that you're getting what you want by helping you save money on car insurance. Drivers who save by switching to Progressive save over $700 on average, and customers can qualify for an average of six discounts when they sign up. Discounts like having multiple vehicles on your policy. Progressive offers outstanding coverage and award-winning claim service. Day or night, they have customers support 24-7, 365 days a year. When you need them the

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So I just finished recording with Clayton and it like broke my heart. It was so heavy. He is not okay. He was really upset. He's taking everything like really hard. And at one point my internet cut out and my producers were still on the line and it like almost felt like he was going to cry, but he was scrolling his deal. DMs and he's just absorbing so much of what everybody is saying on the internet. He's really hard

on himself, but very self-aware. Everybody's calling him like a gas lighter, which that term's being thrown around. So I don't, I feel like he tried to go through each relationship individually, like really put his whole heart into each single person, which is what you're supposed to do, because that's, it's not real life. Real life rules don't apply. So how do you build a foundation with your partner when the foundation is just shit from the beginning. So, well, it's interesting, right? Like, obviously, this is not a typical dating situation. But we did notice something that really blew up this week, which was like, what is the

expectations and the communication, right? Because as everyone knows, we are couples therapists. We fucking love talking. We want to talk about things. We want to talk it out. But the situation we have here is, like, at no point is there like a conversation of like hey if you sleep with somebody else that's a violation of my trust right or if you do this thing a b and c and because there's not actual space and i think also

because everyone wants to be kept in the running right so no one wants to feel like they're being jealous or controlling so we don't say these things also as women in general we don't we tend to not say this because we want to be the cool chill girl totally and so in this situation it does have to be saying the thing you're so scared to say, which might be, I need you not sleep with someone else. But we're so worried about saying that. And what are the expectations here? And it sounds like from what we were watching, it sounds like maybe Susie didn't even realize what kind of unconscious contract she had until they got to the fantasy suites, right? You kind of see her in her own mind, especially being the third fantasy suite date.

Right. You see the anxiety and you see it kind of coming up for her. And the fact of matter is, and we see this a lot in couples therapy, is sometimes you don't even realize until you get to an engagement or until you get married, what kind of unconscious contracts you have in your relationships. And so you kind of are watching her figure that out as she's going into this. And what's really tough about this unique situation is that there is no time to have that conversation with him where in a typical relationship, you might call and be like, hey, this is coming up for me, right? Like, let's have a quick conversation. I'll shoot you a text where that's not an option. Yeah. Yeah. They're just literally sitting in their own thoughts and overthinking and assuming because they

can't have that conversation. They have to assume what's going on in the fantasy suites or assume he's, You know, if he picks me, he's not going to sleep with the other two. And you just start spiraling in your own mind about all these assumptions that you have one opportunity then to talk through it. And then when it's not what you thought it was going to be that it blows up. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. And I think it was also so easy to relate to Susie as she was spiraling. You know, just for the viewers to like watch that happen. Like who hasn't experienced that in a relationship in which the person that were. dating isn't even dating other people, right? Like we're watching her spiral because he's dating and possibly having sex with other people. And I think it was just so relatable to the viewers. Totally. Oh, totally. And she seemed to handle it just with so much grace. And like, what did you think about the end? So when I just talked to Clayton, he said it was like so out of context what we saw as viewers. Because what he was experiencing was Susie coming into the this date. And he was thinking, I think this girl just wants to be the bachelorette. I think she came here

for Instagram and to like have a platform. And he was all in his head about that. So when she didn't fight to stay, he was like, yep, she just proved me right. She's leaving so easily. She's not fighting for this. She clearly is here for the fame. And so he got a little defensive and angry, but no one really knew what he was truly feeling because they probably edited that part out or blah, blah, blah. So he was able to say, no, that's what was going through my head. Did you think it was gaslighting how he was speaking to her? It's not. So no. So gaslighting, and that's the thing is that gaslighting is a term that gets thrown around. And so what gaslighting is, is it's more of a deliberate and conscious

form of manipulation that's happening over an extended period of time. Right. So it's someone who's very consciously doing this. And what we saw from Clayton is actually really similar to what we saw in the first episode with Sally, which is he doesn't do well with rejection, right? We watched it happen in episode one. He wanted to give her a rose. This girl's coming and saying, I can't do this. This is not for me. He's like, let me give you a rose right here.

Please. Like, stay here. Holy shit. Here I am. I'm already being rejected. And we watch it happen. As soon as he said to Susie, I love you and she said, you know, I adore you, you watched everything switch. And he starts going internal, smiling down.

And let's be honest, who of us, when we are feeling, rejected, don't get defensive and angry. I think it's really easy to shit on him right now, but I want to talk to one single person that has always been their best self in a relational dynamic, because I sure should know, this is my job, but I can't do it. Yeah, 100%. I'm like, I thought the same thing. Like, you could see that switch flip for him. And when she didn't say it back, every one of his insecurities was confirmed. And he again was feeling rejection. And he got defensive because all he wanted was her to fight for him. It was,

you also see such a vulnerable moment, right? Like he's, he's getting to this point where he's allowing himself to open up in his relationship with Susie. And it's clear just as he is opening up to each of the women that he's like really working himself up for this. And so he's allowing himself to be really vulnerable. And then I think, you know, in any relationship when we, we get ourselves to the point where we can be that

vulnerable, then being shut down can be that much more painful. And so what we see is him going into this very kind of protective mode, right? Like he goes right into like, I need to protect myself right now. And that's where you see the anger response. Yes. Oh my gosh. So true. I feel so bad for him right now because he really is such a sweet, sweetheart. Like I always call it, I think I've told you guys this before, the shopping for pain. The thing he's doing online. Like, how would you advise someone who's navigating these feelings of regret and shame and getting caught up in what social media is saying to him? Like, how do you tell somebody to not care about what other people say when it's like millions of people say things? Well, it's impossible. It's impossible to not

care because we genuinely care what other people think about us. That is a human behavior. Because the other thing it does when we start to feel like we are being villainized, it's what that is, is the rejection and isolation. Yeah. If everyone hates me, what will I have in this life, right? And so then you see it really, really start to play out. So the advice that would give us one-stop reading all of that. That shit, when you have a rough day, does it help to read any of the worst parts you write yourself?

Because even if he's getting 500 amazing complimentary ones, that one negative one, that's stick it out. So the first thing we have to do is we have to physically remove ourselves. I can't interact with these DMs. I would imagine as part of his contract that he can't stay off social media. So I'm not even going to give that recommendation. And with a typical person, I'd say, hey, delete Instagram for a week, get off for it. Now, I'm sure he has requirements he has to do.

I wouldn't go through the DMs. And I wouldn't interact back and forth. When you try to fend yourself, it's like you start being your own PR person. Like, you're just like sitting there. Like, I got to Olivia Pope this shit. I got to defend myself and I got to go out here. And it's just not helpful because it drives us crazy. And that's what he's doing to himself.

And this is someone who's in pain. Yeah. And we're not built for that. not built to have so many different opinions and hear so many so much criticism. And so just as you're saying, he's just taking it in and taking it in. And I can't imagine what that's doing to his mental health. Oh, you could just see it in his, like, I was, I'm worried about him. And I told him, I was like, Clayton, you didn't murder somebody. You didn't run over somebody's dog. You, like, you are trying to navigate relationships on national television with everyone having their

opinions, you're not a bad guy. Stop reading the comments because these people would make mistakes while they dated on national television too. They're literally giving you death threats because they have their own problems in life. Yes. This is the difficulty of parisocial relationships, right? They really think that he hurt them in some way by how he hurt Susie. And there's this other thing. I know, and I hate to talk about anyone's dad, but we watch this interesting promo clip for next week. His dad's pretty harsh on him. So I would imagine all of us have this internal voice. A lot of times it's from our parents, right?

And maybe he has a dad that's more like, all right, this is you. You got to self-advocate. You did this to yourself. He says you screwed the pooch. I think that's a very funny phrase. But it's also like, I'm not going to give you a lot of sympathy and gentleness. So what we're saying to Colon right now is, hey, be easy on yourself. But he's not getting that messaging anywhere else.

And in general, the reality is we're going to get hate for this. We believe no one's bad. we believe everyone deserves unconditional positive regard and I don't think he's really getting that right now and guess what that will really make you spiral of fuck out oh my gosh especially yeah coming from the people that are supposed to be you know grounding you and reminding you how loved you are and that yeah and this is a TV show at the end of the day and our romantic relationships bring up and drudge up all of our shit from our childhood right so like just to imagine just one relationship, one deep vulnerable relationship, drudging that up and times it by

three. And then put it in front of millions and millions of people. An edited version. Edited version, right? And so, like, that has, you know, I'm just to think about his end of it, that has to be so, such a mirror, but also there's so much pain in that to watch that through. I know. And just like, I think like going through, I think he talked about this. on the show or maybe I just knew this. I can't remember, but like how he didn't feel confident all growing up. He felt rejected all growing up. He had body dysmorphia. He, you know, like so many things that are probably, like you said, coming out now in this dating experience where you literally are just surrendering to a TV show, your whole, like all of your insecurities, all of your, like everything

that you're feeling, you feel so exposed. Yeah. Yeah. And everybody's just watching. thinking it's just a TV show like let's send him a death threat huh and it's like dude he takes all of those so seriously and he like it's it's almost like he knows he didn't do something that wrong but like he's like do I belong in a dumpster like because that's what people are saying to him and it's so sad to watch him spiral like this right and I think it's confusing I don't there's no set rules here right if you are dating in a relationship I highly recommend if you're listening this and you're someone who's currently dating set rules for how you're you date. It's important for me to be monogamous. It's important that if he say, even if we're not

monogamous, that we're not sleeping with other people, right? The reality is there's no set rules here. And when we don't have rules to go by, we don't have guidelines, it is very easy for us to then attack ourselves that we did something wrong. But there's no shoulds here. There's no right or wrong. This is just people that are trying to have this relationship in a totally bizarre manner. And then for our entertainment pleasure. Right. I know. I almost feel guilty as of you are like, what? Yeah. I'm like, I'm buying into like the

what, you know, what they're doing to us. I'm part of it. But this shuts down in the defensiveness, right? How many of us have done that in a relationship? So if my worst moments were filmed, I do not think I'd feel good about that. No. And we might, we all might get death threats too.

Everyone would. And do you think, and I keep asking this question to, I guess, social media or I'm going to ask to you, do you think We hold these lead people, the bachelor and the bachelorette, at a higher standard than like a normal human being because these are just regular people trying to navigate their way through relationships. Why are we expecting them to be like this perfect human who has no trauma, no shadows, nothing to work through and they're just going to like breeze by easily and do everything right? Like why do we hold them to the standard? Well, I think, I think when you're on a TV show, it's so easy to dehumanize the purpose.

person and just say, oh, this is a character, right? That it's so easy to be so separate from the person and watch it just like it's entertainment. And you hear them, you know, having these real relationships, having these very vulnerable conversations. But as a viewer, I think it's so much easier to just dehumanize in order for it to be entertaining for us. Yeah. Yeah, you're so right. Nobody knows the ending because it's, it can't be like it can't be spoiled. Apparently no one will know until it airs. So let's assume that he picks somebody. What advice would you give to that woman who's probably hurting that he had slept with other women for trying to start now this healthy relationship? We have to repair the rupture first. So of course, they want to go and be on social

media and see everyone how happy they are and oh my gosh, look at my ring and we're engaged and things are great. First, we must repair. Because if we just gloss over ruptures, they will become larger and we will have resentment. So first we repair. Hey, there was this betrayal that occurred. Let's talk through how we want to repair this together. Let's fix that first and then we move forward. And create a boundary around your relationship. Before this, there has been no boundaries around your relationship. Everyone is involved, right? Everyone's opinions infiltrate their relationship. And, you know, when we're talking to couples, we talk to them a lot about creating boundaries around their relationships like in their extended family, right? Like with your mother-in-law who keeps showing up

at your door. But with this, there's so many more opportunities for people outside of the relationship to be infiltrating the relationship. And so they're going to have to create a new boundary around their relationship where they get to know each other and they get to connect with each other and repair that rupture separate from other people. Yeah. That's such a good point. I wanted to talk about the shocking behavior also on the women tell all because I thought maybe we were above that at this point in the show. But then I think about all, like, even the one I was out with all the men, I'm like, this is embarrassing. Were you guys shocked by the women's behavior? Okay.

I feel like everyone tries to keep it together on the show and then they get to the reunions and they're like, I'm letting it fly, baby. Like, you really, people let it all out there. way less contained way than they would ever do during the actual season. Yeah. And you could tell Jesse Palmer was terrified. Terrified. Shut. He was like, oh.

He didn't know what to do. I got nothing. But yeah, but I also think you saw so much of Cheney's behavior on the back end of things. And so they watched that back and then didn't have the opportunity to confront her. And it was just like all hell broke loose. But there were so many times where, you know, as we're. watching this and we're a therapist in my head. I'm like, oh, God, I wish I could jump in

because I'm just like, nothing's going to get accomplished by just yelling at each other. And you really couldn't hear most of it for because everyone's just screaming at each other. So it was very entertaining. But I didn't really see anything getting accomplished through the conversation. Nothing got accomplished at all. Everyone's screaming at each other. Right. And like Genevieve, like you saw her hold it together that entire season, right? Like, she really tried to hold it together and not let it. You can see that she manages her emotions. We saw it within the therapist episode.

Yeah. And so I think when you get to something and you're, one, no longer so worried about getting the guy, right? You're not exactly on your best behavior. You're not managing as much. You still let a little bit out. It's real hard to rein it back in. Yeah.

Right. And there was so much support for it, right? Right. Everyone on social media, you know, all the girls were banded together, right? it was just like this like mom mentality like let's get her yeah i know i was thinking about that with the you know i was thinking about you too watching an episode that have therapy episodes on it and i'm like i don't know what is your thought on the therapy episodes i mean that's not what therapy is right where you're like like i mean especially this season it felt like it was i mean that is something

a psychoanalysis would do is like totally call it out like you're kind of full of bullshit yeah that being said though like it did feel a little bit like they were on trial yeah and and he really and they were they also were asking the girls the women to open up so much and not him yeah right and in couples therapy the goal is for it to be balanced right that you your couple is the the client is the relationship and it's not just one person and so it was so off balance right and so i like the idea of trying to normalize couples therapy but i i wonder if it went just in the opposite direction. It acted more like a lie detector test.

That's exactly what I felt. Yes, it felt way more like a lie detector test. They might as well have just like slapped a lie detector test. Totally. They do that sometimes on the episodes, but they're like, oh, let's do a new approach and like therapy is so in right now. Let's do that. But then they really just like, I don't know.

It felt like they were cornering the women and like, it was scary. They had to stay on brand right there like because it had to be Freud because of where they were located. Most people when doing a couple's therapy are not. going to a psychoanalysis. They're not going to a Freud trained person. They're going to actual couples therapists that are trades into this. But I like something that stays on brand. I appreciate that. Right. They gave it a shot. They did. Fair enough. What do you think as therapists watching Sheney? Shanae. Shanae. Yeah. Wow. Watching her behavior. What do you think is going on there?

So we can't necessarily diagnose her. But, you know, what we do see is, there really is no ability to acknowledge her own part in any of her relationships. And we do see a lot of manipulation in the way that she is reflecting on situations. And if she's being questioned in some way that she, once again, is not holding herself accountable. And so once again, we can't diagnose her. But it seems like it would make for a really difficult relationship. You're also wanting somebody to care when like she was actually quite honest from day one that she didn't right like she like had said from day one like I'm not here to make friends like I don't know why all these girls are so supportive if you get a one-on-one I

don't right and you know what she did say that from day one yeah yeah and you gotta give it for honesty is that some people go into here and they are not here and I think it's so awesome when the girls become friends and become supportive I love that because like I believe in community over competition but not everyone does and she had a different value system and that's what she went for and it's almost it's almost like the unconscious contracts that we're talking about is also coming out in the relationships with the women yeah right because there's a lot of them are going into it like oh I'm going to be friends with these women until like I'm off the show or until I get engaged or you know until after the show where some women are going into it completely different they're like

I just you know I'm here for a fiance and we'll see what happens yeah oh my gosh if she was going to go to paradise who would you pair her with oh God. Jen's a bashmaker. What do you think, Jen? Maybe just some of the shrimp, you know? Like there's a lot of crabs in paradise. I think that might be really helpful.

She should just hang out with the crabs. Hang out with the crabs. I think she has a lot of work to do on herself, if I'm being honest. I think there's a lot of self-reflection that she's going to have to do. Do you think she's going to paradise? Of course. Right. Of course.

Like, why wouldn't they bring her? Yeah. Of course she is. And maybe, you know what? Maybe after this, she will reflect. Like, maybe she will do some, you know, deep diving into her soul. And you, you know what? You have seen on past seasons that the villain has gone into paradise and everyone's

like, oh, they're great now, right? Like, that they have done the work. So I really, really hope that for her. Yeah. I hope so, too. Otherwise, I don't know. She's putting on TikToks now dancing with shrimp behind her. So like, I don't know what she cares.

Like, once you can't. Like, I don't think she cares. I don't think she does either. I really don't. Right. Did anyone watch those, like, TikToks or reels or whatever, just drip in the background? And you know what? Like for her. She's using it.

I honestly, I hope that is her being true to herself. Yeah. And not just like her trying to like, you know, project or bury some demons. Like, I really thought that's just like she can do. Oh, that's amazing. Okay. Last but not least, what would you say to Clayton if he was in front of you right now? Let's say give yourself some grace, some compassion, take yourself to therapy to reflect on

some of those deeper things, the wounds that were coming out and that are currently coming out and to learn how to nurture yourself through this time because it sounds like he's going through a really tough time. Yeah. I think he has cracked the surface in some ways, right, of understanding that he doesn't do wealth rejection of understanding like how, you know, personally he's really taken this he understand that go to a deeper level it seems like his shame is coming from how he reacted in the situation that he got a little bit cold towards her and he said at one point like i'm sorry i raised my voice i like right like and so he has this acknowledgement in the moment so i would say talk about what part of yourself was so injured that you needed to push her away right

what was it about her vulnerability and honesty that made you feel like you need to shut down and go right to self-protection. And how are you with giving kindness and softness towards yourself? And if you haven't learned it yet, we are never, ever too late. Oh, I'm ending it there. That was amazing. Yes. Everything you both have said, yes. I'm going to force him to listen to this part of the podcast. I honestly think it's going to help him so much to hear from professionals that like, here's gas lighting. Here's what you were doing. Give yourself some grace. Like you're going to be okay. I think it's going to really help him. So thank you for jumping on this little quick pod today to help us navigate his feelings for him. It was so good to see you. Thank you for having us.

I'm Caitlin Risto. Your session is now ending. Thanks for listening to Off the Vine, Grape Therapy. Tune in to hear new mini-sodes every Thursday and check out new full-length episodes every Tuesday exclusively on podcast.1.com, the podcast one app, Subscribe on Apple Podcasts. Who's done with OTV? In a world where singles are no longer meeting IRL, live one and one-seven live bring you plus one. A reimagined live stream dating show for singles looking to make a genuine connection.

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