Off The Vine with Kaitlyn Bristowe - Grape Therapy: Taylor Nolan

Episode Date: June 4, 2020

Former Bachelor contestant, professional therapist and host of her podcast, Let’s Talk About It, Taylor Nolan joins Kaitlyn and Jason on the show to continue the conversation about racial injustices in the world. She shares how to learn more about the history of oppression, white privilege and resources to use to enable change. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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policies at GEICO.com slash give back. Podcast One presents Off the Vine, Grape Therapy. Caitlin Bristow is going to answer your questions, drink to your confessions, and hear what you have to say about anything Bachelor. Let's shake it up some more. Here's Caitlin. All right, welcome to Grape Therapy. Today, Jason and I are joined over Zoom with Taylor Nolan, fellow bachelor alum, professional

therapist, and social media voice on mental health, sexual health, and race issues. She is also the host of her podcast. Let's talk about it. Last week, her episode titled White People featured the author of White Fragility, Robin DeAngelo, and another fellow bachelor alum, Vanessa Grimaldi, where they talked about reverse racism, white fragility and their thoughts on race in recent news. I thought she would be a great voice today to help me continue the conversation, continue learning myself, and with all that's going on.

And Jason and I thank you so much for being part of this podcast today. Yeah, thanks for having me. and being open to have these uncomfortable conversations open yes more than ever and again just like thank you for you know so many people shouldn't have this responsibility to do it but it is good to have the conversation uncomfortable or not you know it's just what we need so first of all how are you i'm tired yes i'm exhausted i was up till 5 a.m last night barely any sleep uh my whole body just feels like it's been physically beat up. I, yeah, I'm just overall exhausted, as I think many people are. Yeah, yeah, of course. You have an amazing podcast that's called Let's Talk About

about it, where you use your platform to have sometimes uncomfortable conversations, which I think is incredible. So when and how did you decide to start this podcast? I mean, after the show, I mean, you know, you can only have so many stories live on your page before it gets annoying and I always have more things to say and I always want to continue the conversation so creating the podcast let's talk about it was just a very natural segue into deepening the uh the conversations around mental health around sexual health around privilege around fragility around social justice um around even environmentalism around the food systems um i i love having these taboo conversations and so it just seems like a very natural

fit for me. Do you find that because of your, you know, your work that you already do and then having the podcast on top of that is probably another reason where at the end of the day you just feel so drained from all these kinds of different conversations, but all important conversations, right? Yeah. So it depends. There are some conversations that I'm very personally impacted by that become triggering myself and provide opportunities for me to work. And others really are just me learning and providing a platform for other people to share their voices and share their stories. So it's, I don't, it's rare that I feel exhausted from doing psychotherapy with clients. A lot of the times I feel like with more energy after clients, which is not usually something people think of

for therapists. But it's a balance. You know, I have days specifically set aside where I do psychotherapy and then I have days where I'm specific to recording the podcast to try to maintain a little bit balance but some days it is chaos because i know you are like all about uncomfortable conversations but when something comes up that is triggering for you how do you deal with that as like the host of the show are you just vulnerable to having those kinds of conversations about being uncomfortable because i i imagine for myself as something is triggering for me i tend to you know not know how to i always try and direct it back on my guests which i probably shouldn't do but how do you deal with that if something is triggering for you yeah so thankfully and in a lot of

ways I'm aware of these triggers. Going through school to become a therapist, you do a lot of that personal work through that program to identify what those triggers are so that you can be aware of your biases and potential trigger points for transference with clients. So a lot of it I try to stay open to if it is something I'm triggered by. And typically, that's if I'm having a conversation around verbal or sexual abuse within relationships, emotional abuse, emotional abuse, and then race talking about being biracial, talking about racism. Those are two areas that can be really heavy for me to discuss. But I do try to stay open to that when it feels triggering.

And also, I'm a talker. I heal through conversation. That's also why I am very passionate about psychotherapy. And so for me, I try to speak about it in a way that is healing for me. So sometimes that is me being very honest with where I'm at and not sugar-coding it, you know, as a host, I'm not on there as a therapist. I'm not on there, even necessarily as an educator. I'm really just hosting as me, and I'm going to allow space for all those parts of me to come through.

I love that. One of the interesting things, like when I got off the show, I noticed that if I walked literally the wrong way on the side of the road, I would get, our following is just super hypersensitive. So like when you dove right into these taboo subjects right from the get go, sexuality, all these things. You know, what kind of feedback were you getting and did it empower you or were there times where it almost derailed you? You're like, you know, is this even worth it? Yeah. So first I'll say just being on the show itself, I already received a ton of that criticism. So going into the podcast, I knew that there were going to be people that felt that way about me. But at the same time,

what I started off the podcast with was mental health. And mental health is an area that does have, have a lot of awareness and where people really have opened up their minds, too, to supporting. I think people feel a lot of guilt these days if they don't show up in supportive mental health. So in that area, I did not receive a lot of criticism. But at the end of the day, I mean, you can say or do anything to upset anyone. And for me, the biggest thing I've learned coming off of the show is to just stick with what you believe in and don't say shit that you can't stand by and don't act in a way that's not in alignment with your values. So everything that I say, I stand by is rooted in my values.

Every decision I make, every action I take, every episode I record, every statement I say, and that is all rooted in my values. And those are all things I can stand by. So someone can disagree. Someone can, you know, shame me for it. They can say all kinds of things about it. But if I know I'm staying true to myself, then I frankly really don't give a shit. And there's a real difference between someone trying to offer you constructive feedback, right? That's a very different thing than like, you know, oh, my God, you'd be a terrible therapist because you, you know, whatever it was, because you shared a picture of you in a bathing suit. Like, okay.

There's a big difference there. And it's not that I'm not open to that constructive feedback. But again, one of the things that Bray Brown says is, you know, letting people into your space who have earned the right to hear your stories. And so I'm not taking criticism and feedback from people who don't know me and don't know my life. And you're creating a space for people to come to you and listen, right? So a lot of people are coming to you because they want to hear what you have to say and feel like you, you know, what you have to say is important. So that's another reason I love podcasting is because nobody's going to tune in to listen to you talk for an hour if they don't

want to hear what you have to say. And so there is, there is mostly constructive criticism, but it's always, you know, there's always the one random person. But I was going to ask how hard it was for you, um, with your background and profession to go on the show and have them try and coach you through therapy and like that kind of thing. How hard was that? Because, you know, that's their kind of thing as producers to do to you. And I just, I was naive to it. And I can only imagine that you were not naive to it and how did you deal with that so that's what a lot of people think and going on the show i was repeatedly told you know you're going to do so great like if anyone's prepared for this it's going to be you and i think i mean in some ways yes but in a lot of

ways no because no one can prepare you for that kind of experience um i had just turned 23 like during casting. I was fresh out of my graduate program. I was looking at this as like a learning experience. I was thinking, you know, everyone was going to have my back. My producer was like my friend. It's not, it doesn't work the same way as the real world works. And I was definitely expecting it too.

And I think one of the things that, you know, is a misstep on my part and something I've reflected on and learned from was that, on the show, I very much took on the position of being the observer, and I felt like I wasn't allowing myself to be subjective in that, that I was very much kind of just watching everything happened around me and, you know, experiencing it and reflecting on it. But I wasn't letting myself be present in it. And I think that's sometimes something that people in the helping profession can struggle with. So I think I was very naive going in and definitely fell flat on my face. Well, I mean, we, you know, we all don't know what we're getting into in that situation.

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white fragility so it was an amazing conversation what what did you what made you want to do that episode and what topics did you cover in it yeah so honestly part of me did not want to do the episode at all part of me the beginning of this episode or I guess the initial reason for starting this episode was because of Hannah Brown using the N word on her Instagram live and feeling like you know I'm tired of having these conversations and how do people not understand this information yet and part of me felt like this is not where my emotional energy needs to go I get this this isn't a conversation I need to have but also knowing that my listeners would be benefit from this. And I do feel very strongly that if you have a platform, you have a responsibility. And so I asked Robin D'Angelo to come on the podcast to kind of talk about white fragility. It's something that I've talked about, you know, the last two, three years, probably more so on my Instagram and tried to educate people on just as I shared my own experience as a woman of color in this world. When Trump was elected and all these things

happening in the world just me sharing my experiences and being met with white fragility i was saying okay let's try to have a conversation about this you know let's try to i want to help you to better be able to hear me on some of this um and so it just felt like it was about time that i had robin on the podcast because she coined the term white fragility she wrote this book and people of color are not always the best people to teach white people about their experiences about racism And nor should they. Yeah. And it's like this is the piece that I think people get confused on because, yes, we want to amplify and we always want to uplift black voices.

And we do want you to listen to us. But we also know that us talking about race is really difficult for white people to hear. And so Robin doing some of this work, I think people receive it in a different way. way. Hearing it from another white person, it resonates differently. The defenses are a little reduced. She still is met with some of that. But in the episode, she talked about white fragility. We talked about reverse racism, which is not a thing. And tried to really just expand people's minds on what racism is and how you can actually kind of start to work to do some of this anti-racist work. I then had Vanessa on the podcast in the same episode because when all of this

came up in Bachelor World, which she doesn't like to comment on. And I was like, I don't either. But I was like, but we got a responsibility here. And she didn't even necessarily want to come on the podcast to begin with and was very nervous about it. And I said, why don't we let this be an example of how to have an uncomfortable conversation? Granted, we had had many conversations before that. But, you know, talking about race and racism is not an easy conversation. and when that white people are not going to get 100% correct. And I think oftentimes that keeps people in a place of fear, but that's not helpful for anyone.

And so I was really happy that she did come on the podcast. She's happy she came on the podcast. And overall, I think it's been a really helpful episode for people to listen to. Do you think that's why people have been silent is just because of being uncomfortable? I think that's a very large part of it. I think there's layers to it. I think it's uncomfortable about maybe not being educated. I think it's uncomfortable out of fear that they might get attacked.

I think it's uncomfortable that they might say something wrong, that so that they don't want to mess with their money, right? That their platform is how they make money and they don't want to step outside of their brand. There's so many pieces of it that are rooted in this discomfort that causes white people to just totally step back from the conversation. So how did you, so you said Vanessa obviously was scared and fearful of that. So I'm just curious, like you guys are such good friends. What was it that, like, you were telling her to have comforted? Like, how did you encourage her to be like, no,

you need to be a part of this? Even if it is uncomfortable. Even if it is uncomfortable. What did that message sound like? Because I think that's a message that if anyone hears, it's certainly impactful. Yeah. Well, I basically told her. I said, this is not rocket science. I said it's like you're you're making it way more difficult on yourself than it really needs to be like you I was like you know what the right answer is here like you know that you do care about people like George Floyd right you know that what happened to him is wrong you know that what happened to Brianna Taylor is wrong you know what happened to all these people the list goes on and on and on you know that that was wrong and yet you're scared to say that

why and so we had a conversation about that and i really did too just encourage her that what you say is not going to be perfect but that's okay it we don't expect like people of color don't expect that to be perfect but if we do then say hey actually can you add this piece on there or like you know this actually doesn't really match with what you're trying to say that actually causes more harm than to just be open to that and know that it's not as attacking you it's not me saying that you're never going to do anything right. And she was really open and receptive to hearing that. And I think it also helps to zoom out because often when we're having these conversations

around race and just the phrase white people, just that phrase, white people, can create such defensiveness that it's this good, bad binary of what a racist is, that automatically, oh my gosh, I'm a racist, but I'm not a bad person. but you know I want to do good but then if I'm labeled as racist and it's zooming out and recognizing that you've been conditioned and raised in a system that's based in white supremacy that this system has been built intentionally to benefit you and intentionally to oppress black people specifically so when you zoom out like that it's not even specifically about you yeah oh you're so right And like what are your thoughts on the media and how the media is presenting this?

Because I find that they're showing all of the, you know, the riots over the protesting. And I just feel like they're doing the classic media thing of and not helping the situation. Yeah. I mean, I think we have to be really intentional about where we do consume our media. So, and I think, again, to the quantity of media that we also consume. and to really check yourself on those biases that come up and on those judgments that come up when you do watch media. I think for me personally,

I have had to take a step back because this is, like none of this is new. Yeah. This is all stuff that we have seen time and time again throughout our history. And it's, we know we're going to have the people that are protesting. and right now that are actually rebelling and starting a revolution, which is a moment in history that we're witnessing, that we are a part of, hopefully.

And then we know that we're also always going to have people that are opportunists, right, that are seeing this as a gateway to just cause chaos. And people have been, you know, locked up in their homes. We have been sitting in this COVID pandemic, you know, social distancing, staying home. And for some people, this is just, oh, we all get to go out and, you know, break shit and whatever. And I will say there's, it's really disappointing because most of the time it feels like people are only getting half the story. They're getting, oh, well, people are rioting. And immediately people associate that with black people.

That black people are these animals destroying their communities. this isn't their community Black people are not destroying their communities they have never been made to feel that they actually have a true community in America to begin with and you know that's not where the focus should even be

on people rioting like we you might see that piece in your media but think about why even say that there are the people that are in the rebellion and that are protesting and that are not just opportunists opportunists, but that are stealing and looting. Let's think about why. Why would they even,

why would they be so angry? And why would they go to that extreme? Well, let's zoom out and look at history. I know. It's as simple as my, my girlfriend posted, like, this wouldn't be happening if cops weren't killing innocent black people. Like, these riots wouldn't be happening. You know, so. Yeah. And I think to your point, Taylor, is that like, I loved Will Smith's quote when he said racism hasn't gotten worse. It's just gotten videotape. It's just being documented. I mean, it's just being documented for our visibility now.

Yeah. Well, and that's not just now. That's Eric Gardner was six years ago. Yeah. Wow. And that was when, really, when Black Lives Matter started. And we're just now waking up because now we watch George Floyd. So it's, yeah, it has been being filmed.

for the last six years before that we had photographs we did have documentaries we had films it was film then too we so it's it's on one hand yes it is now being filmed and we can see it but do we really need to do we really need to fucking watch that to be able to say that that's not right do we really need to like traumatize ourselves in watching innocent black people get murdered to actually say oh yeah we should probably have some police reform like what i was watching like you know where there's so many conversations about the right thing to do right now and i was watching one um ig tv and she was saying like black people don't want to relive this don't post the videos of of this stuff happening we know it's happened you're just witnessing it now not us we don't want to relive that post you know

the where to go resources certain things like we're telling you what we need but we shouldn't have to. We'll be right back with more off the vine, grape therapy. So, LeCroy, sparkling water that delivers refreshment flavor and sparkle with an innocent twist of zero calories, zero sweeteners, and zero sodium. Our fridge is jam-packed full of these. It's our favorite. There are 27 LeCroy flavors. The newest additions to the family are Limoncello and Pashtake, and you guys already know I love these new flavors. I talk about it all the time. Limoncello has the perfect hint of lemon, tastes like a vacation to me, and pastique, which is French for watermelon, is just the most refreshing beverage ever and makes me feel like it's summertime every time I drink it.

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follow or to get information or education yeah so part of what's happening right now with this mute the white noise and amplify black voices people are starting to tag um black creators that are providing resources that are just providing, you know, experiences in their life. You know, it's your typical blogger, but she's black. And so that content's going to be a little bit different. So people are sharing that, and I think that that is helpful. I listed a few of those people on my feet as well. Erica Hart is a great resource.

She has courses available on her Instagram, Rachel Cargo. also has some courses available from the Great Unlearn, which is also fantastic. Tamika Mallory, she had a fantastic speech about the, quote, rioting and looting that's happening. So she's also a fantastic resource. Sean King provides some really specific action steps for people to call and take action. And I think that's really helpful. But, you know, through all of this, those are just a few.

but I will say that I hope that people are not just expanding their social media feeds to reflect the voices of color, but that they are doing that in their everyday lives as well. Yeah. Let your social media feed become more of a mirror for your everyday life because if this is just new to you now because it wasn't a part of your every, you didn't have diversity in your everyday life, let alone on your social media feed. If you're going to start on your social media feed, then at, at least try to work towards that reflecting in your everyday life too.

It's so well said. I want to give you credit for your profile on your, you know, as today I'm doing my part, doing research and educating myself on your profile right on your link tree. First thing you have is all this information of resources, podcasts, classes you can take, books you can read. You must have, you know, 50 plus resources. So anyone learning, I would say, go to Taylor's profile, look at her link tree. It's the first thing up.

and there's so much you can educate yourself with. Yeah. And I will say this too. All the resources are out there. So for people listening, if you happen to have a black friend, if you happen to have a black colleague, don't go to them and ask them for resources. Like, don't. Yeah.

Yeah. The resources are out there. And if you are going to share or ask a black content creator for resources or if you're going to benefit from their work, then credit them, continue to share them, engage on their page, don't just follow them, engage on their page. And if they have a resource available for you to pay them, like a Venmo or a PayPal, pay them for their work. Because the resources are out there. They've been out there for decades, centuries, generations. And it's not something to beat yourself up over that you haven't used those resources yet but to maybe just sit in

that place and realize yeah the system has still benefited me i have not had to ever be made aware of these things i've never had to do this this education for myself whereas black people literally have to on their own learn their own history they have to go and figure out those resources you know the education that we get in our school system it sucks when it comes to the history of black people it's terrible and black people have to sit there and learn all about the white history right and i just yeah um and i know as we're talking about things that are right and wrong to do um i had it written down here you know like a lot of us want to reach out to the black people on our lives but don't want to ask things of them right now um and i know a lot of people

are posting this week about blackout Tuesday while others are concerned about the implications of this what is your take on that so well first i want to touch on reaching out to your black friends and like seeing if they're okay um it's it's like it's a little late for that and i think what is more helpful is to be reaching out to your white friends and asking them if they're okay and saying whoa did you realize we were doing this shit did you realize we were part of this like we need to talk about this because black people have been having these conversations they've been talking about it um and yeah it it feels like i don't even know how to put it into words because i've had friends message me and be like hey how are you doing and i'm like how do you

think i'm doing yeah and why why why are you just now bringing this up like it feels hurtful that that that the pain and the history and the reality of how black people live in America has just been so so out of your viewpoint. In regards to the, sorry, you were asking, your second piece of that was about the Blackout Tuesday. Yeah, like all these posts about Blackout Tuesday and some people are like, why, if we can still use our voice or, I just want to know your take on that. Girl, I got a lot of thoughts on that.

First, this is not to silence black voice. so it's black people don't black out Tuesday your voices need to be raised a be you know this started off as a thing for white people to just simply not post and to intentionally follow and share the content of other black creators it then turned into white people flooding the feeds announcing that they were leaving to mute themselves, which to me is a little performative and it's supposed to be in solidarity with the Black Lives Matter movement. But in what way does that show solidarity? And with everything in life, but especially when it comes to topics of race, I think we need

to look at intention versus impact. and those are not always going to be in alignment. So there's some great intention behind Blackout Tuesday. There's some great intention to show your solidarity with the Black Lives Matter movement and to want to amplify Black voices. That's a fantastic intention. But maybe ask some more questions before just jumping to the trend, before just jumping to what you're seeing everyone else doing and then thinking,

oh, shit, if I don't post this, like I'm going to. to get attacked or I might get called out like really dig deep first and ask yourself how is this going to help with the cause that I care about and how is this going to be an alignment with the intention I want to come across and I think it's been a bit problematic especially considering that blackout Tuesday is on the day of a primary election for several states that that information is being lost in the midst of white people posting a black. photo of nothing with at the started out and using the wrong hashtags and yeah yeah there was the wrong hashtags which just really actually does the opposite it silences the movement and I'm sorry I know

some people are feeling like oh well we just can't do anything right then like we try to do this but then you're telling us this and it's like well if you really want to be doing the good work then like just listen and be okay with that say oh shit I didn't realize that my bad okay let me change it um but we were like people just respond with so much defensiveness and it's like no if someone's letting you know that it's because they see you trying like for me i'm like i see you trying and i want you to keep trying but like here's maybe how it could be just a little bit better and the whole point of muting and do that is to learn and get that feedback and get that education that's the whole point of it so you can't be defensive and not listen if that's what you're posting

Right. Yep. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And it's, I just, I think it becomes people reacting out of guilt because I think people do feel so stressed out right now. They do feel so so burdened with this pain. I think they feel like they're blaming themselves. They're feeling like they haven't done anything up until now. And gosh, does this mean? they've been like a bad person beating themselves up over it and I will tell you a lot of black creators and activists give zero shits about coddling you through this work and I'm like this is the therapist coming out in me that's acknowledging this but like personal Taylor is like I don't give a shit how you feel you're right yeah because it's you know we're giving you feedback on how to edit your post on social media right take it and shut up and yeah and like People are literally getting murdered and you can't handle just that little teeny tiny bit of constructive, helpful feedback. So all around, I think it's a little stressful because everyone's kind of feeling defensive.

And again, I think zooming out and looking at this, having a deeper understanding about racism itself, about our 30,000 microsystems that are based. in this can help you to put some of those walls down and know that once you can just acknowledge that and say, yeah, I have been conditioned in this system, you know, I haven't been taught these things. I do have biases. Like, I do. And I have a lot to unlearn. And I'm going to be open to that. Then you'll take, you'll be fighting way less energy within yourself to like prove some point that you're not racist because what is that? What is that doing? Just. show us how you're going to be anti-racist. Yeah, that's, well, that was something I was going to bring up because we've been hearing a lot

about anti-racism versus just not being racist lately. And I mean, I know this, but could you explain to my listeners what that means to be actively anti-racist? So there's a link in my bio with the guide to allyship. And that is a very helpful resource that people should check out. There's also a book called How to Be Anti-Racist. I'm totally blanking on the name of the author. Those are two resources, I would say, to check out.

If you are not acting, living in a way that is intentionally going against the systems of racism in our society, if you are not upholding the voices of black people, if you are not standing up when you see these biases and when you see this prejudice and when you see racism being. upheld that's I mean that's the work of being anti-racist being an ally is something that you practice every day it's not a ally ship is not posting a black photo on your feed that's that's just not that's not being an anti-racist it's not yeah yeah and I think so like being an anti-racist I also think it goes back to like your comment about like Vanessa right like Vanessa is clearly anti-racist but like you can't be pair to your point you can't be paralyzed by fear like you you you right you demonstrate day in and day out all these things and you can't be paralyzed by fear that's a

big takeaway because people are always so afraid of what other people are going to say to them you know like and i do that with politics you know it's like oh i don't i don't have enough knowledge to speak on this well too bad like you know now's the time to to there are all the resources in the world to use and there's so many especially right now always has been like now's that's okay to feel fear but do something about it and and don't project that onto others and just do the right thing yeah yeah and part of what you're saying there even of like you know well I'm not an expert in this you know I don't know about this that was another part of my conversation with Vanessa where I said well you know a feeling like

well I'm not black so I shouldn't be but I shouldn't be a part of these conversations right like i just need to like stop and listen which yes there is a time and a place for that um but then i asked her i said well do you have special needs you're a special needs you were a special needs teacher yeah do you personally have any kind of special needs that you struggle with are you like but you advocate for that right you know it's the same thing with with women's rights right like we we advocate for women's rights um on a day-to-day basis and if you're feminist that's really something that people like uphold that they are like, I am a feminist and I stand up for feminism. So like if you really value black lives and stand up as being anti-racist every day when

the opportunities arise and I think it's more there is more fear around this specifically racism because there is such a divide because there is such deep, deep rooted history between white people and black people. There's so much pain there. Um, so it's understandable that you feel freaked out, that you feel scared. Um, but also know that you don't have to be an expert in this. You don't have to be black to speak up and say, that is not right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's, I mean, and I'm sure this is driving you nuts. But when you see the hashtag all lives matter, I just want to jump through the phone and strangle people. Ignorate. And I just want people to stop that hashtag. I've seen it on, my page, I've seen it on every page, and I just want it to stop. And for people, that's a clear sign right there that you have not done any work in looking into this or, you know. That's everything we're talking about. It's useless defensive mechanisms that have absolutely nothing to do with what's going

on in the movement that everyone needs to get behind. And it's, it's outrageously, outrageously ignorant. It is. And so, Caitlin, I'll ask you, though, when you see that people do comment that on your feed, how do you handle that that's an opportunity for allyship that's an opportunity for practicing being anti-racist i totally agree with you and you're absolutely right it's i see more so i've tried not to read my comments which again is me just being a pussy apparently but i've seen on other and i just i already see so much conversation around people teaching them what what they're saying is wrong but you're absolutely right it's it's always an opportunity for me to step in and and have those conversations you're right yeah and and it is important coming from your voice too like

i've had many conversations with people about this when everything in bachelor world came up and it means so much for this stuff to be personal like a a quote a black photo um it's not something that people can relate to but like people follow you because they resonate with you they've seen you share your personal life they understand how you you you somewhat move throughout the world. So hearing things personally and your own voice as to why all lives matter is not appropriate to say or why that is damaging and hurtful to say. You know, it might not be something that you necessarily need to comment back to. But if it's something you know, a lot of people are saying, that's an opportunity to put it in a post,

to put it on a story, to talk about it in a podcast episode like we are now. Because people relate to you. A lot of your following from the show is of other white women. And again, as I talked about with Robin, you know, it's much easier for people to learn and to get on board with this stuff when it is from someone they can see themselves in a bit and especially someone that they look up to. Like, that's a big, a big thing. Yeah. And this might be a touchy subject, but with Bachelor Nation like do you think they're going to make a change moving forward because we all know they should well ABC put out a statement where they were like we support black lives matter mm-hmm yeah I didn't see that there was a statement um released by ABC

and yeah it was on their Instagram um I'm totally blanking on the specifics of what it said but it was it was a blanket statement of like you know we stand with black people but i don't i don't think think that they explicitly said that but that was the point of what they were saying and i was like okay um i think there's been some small efforts right but clearly not enough and i've said this a lot the show is a mirror of society there's so many issues and topics that are presented in the show that are so real in everyday life and it does provide us with a lot of learning opportunities if we are

open to it, which is the key. Yeah. You're right. We'll be right back with more off-divine, great therapy. Let's take a quick moment. We all want to do the right thing to keep our bodies healthy in the long run, but even when we do our best to eat kale, drink the smoothies, do all those

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What are some real ways that people can support the work you are doing or make sure they're contributing right now beyond education? themselves. Oh boy. Beyond educating themselves, I would say having the conversations. So following other black content creators, following me listening to the podcast, I think going out of your way to be an ally is really where you do actually start practicing being an ally. So, you know, one of my clients that I work with actually, she shared today that she shared today that she's starting a book club with her with her co-workers and you know that she wasn't seeing that that diversity represented within her workplace and was taking that as an opportunity right so it's

small things like that that are you putting this education into practice um i think you know signing these petitions making these phone calls making it personal but really like a lot of this stuff comes right back home. You know, it's not to go back into Bachelor here, but, you know, when everything happened with Hannah and she mentioned in her live, you know, oh, no, that's probably my brother that said it, right? It's like moments like that where it's like, yeah, this is not just you. And so these conversations need to be spread throughout. So coming back to your family members, coming back to your friends, coming back to your coworkers, sharing the education, that you have been learning in your own words and challenging that.

It's going to be uncomfortable. People might be like, what the f*** are you talking about? Like, stop. But if it's something you really truly believe in and you really are passionate about and you want to fight for it, then keep having those conversations and vote, vote, vote, make sure you're registered to vote, talk to your friends about voting. We cannot have this helpless, you know, nonchalant attitude towards voting because, This is all these teeny tiny systems that we need to be changing day by day, step by step.

And voting is a huge, huge part of that. And I would also just say, pay the black content creators that you follow. If you see people putting in emotional labor and you see black women especially putting in emotional labor to have conversations with the white women, white men, whatever, white people in their feeds. and you're going to share their work, pay them for that because that comes at a price for them and it's time that you haven't taken throughout your life. So again, be humble and all of that and be open. But those are definitely just a few pieces of action you can take.

Yeah, that's incredible. I will say I have a book club with my girlfriends and we were all doing the research of what books we could read next given the situation. And everything is sold out, which I obviously, is great to see. So, I mean, I hope this movement is just. Yeah, I was just going to say,

remember Amazon's not the only place that you can buy books. I've gotten a lot of messages too about that, about like, sorry, that is actually what I was going to say. In the group chat, we're like maybe there's some small local businesses and certain things in our community that we can do also sold out. So, but yes, good point. That was something I had in my notes to say that it is about not just going to Amazon and beyond and looking into your community and how.

you can do it there too. Thank you for reminding me of that. And thank you for having this conversation and for having your podcast as a platform to have uncomfortable conversations because when people get uncomfortable and have these, that's where growth happens. So I appreciate it. I hope something that I've said here has helped create even maybe just a teeny tiny bit of growth or challenging or thought for either of you. And if you do, I hope you share it. Absolutely. Absolutely. For me, like you cannot, like if you are silent, you are participating in my opinion in racism and you cannot be silent. You have to speak up. And like for me, you said a lot of very, very impactful things. But I love when you said, use your own words. Because to me, there is nothing more transparent than when you are probably reading what a PR team probably, and I apologize for making an assumption created by a bunch of white people and you're just reading it. Like there is nothing behind that, uh, regardless. of you know what's happening and I just don't think there's any justification for that so you you touched on so many things I think all of us can really take home and imply to our lives

like now this second so yeah yeah now and like going forward and going going forward like this isn't like you know one thing that does worry me with the you know blackout Tuesday or whatever mute the white voices thing is that this will be a week and then people will just slowly start unfollowing those black content creators and getting back to the same old same old and it's like I really hope this doesn't just fade fade away you know and we're another six years out from George Floyd looking back saying oh yeah well we saw this happen then too right I am hopeful that it's not that this is you know I that's just me being hopeful but again yeah we'll need a little teeny tiny bit more than hopeful from you though yeah yeah i while we're talking about i know you're wrapping up but

like what do you think it takes to really you know it's not just a week i've been thinking about this a lot people are muting from june june 2nd to june 7th then then okay well it's to hopefully gain i understand right i get the point i'm totally behind it but the question is how do you create like what can what is your kind of like your your your speech your your motivation to make sure that this isn't a weak thing. This isn't a two-week thing. That this is from here on out. That's up to us. Yeah, I know. It's up to everybody. But I'm curious. I'm like, I don't have a choice. Yeah, no, no. I'm curious like what, you know, your words of wisdom are for that, right? Like, what are your word? Like, you know, what can everyone do?

Just keep the conversations going. Keep doing all the work. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's very similar to, you know, how we saw people fight for women's rights. Yeah. you know, people really got dedicated to it, right? How many people showed up in the freaking vagina hats, right? Yeah. The pink hat, like, there were so, so many people showed out for that. And it's a cause that people still, still are very passionate about.

And I'm just like, for change to happen, you not only need that education, you not only need those conversations, you not only need that action, but you need that fire to be. lit in you, you need to be as passionate about black lives as you are about your own, as you are about your sisters, as you are about your moms, as your daughters, as the people that look like you. To me, I think this really comes down to a value thing of being passionate about your values. And I truly think, and I think I've seen this, I don't think it's just me personally, but white people do have a bias to see black people so differently. And that's because of because of everything, right? And so it does take a lot of unlearning and learning new things and putting yourself

in uncomfortable positions. How many times have you been in a space where you're the only white person? Probably maybe never. I can think of several, you know, but exactly to your point. But it's very few. it's very few and you probably have had intentionally intentionally take that step correct yeah correct so yeah but it's it is a long road it's not like uh after this week like this is work that people will have to continue and keep that fire lit inside you to be passionate about these causes

and for whatever forever it is like i agree with you it's not a day it's not a week it's literally the rest of our lives and i think it's incumbent it's just leader And I think when you think about leaders, you have to think of every single damn person has to show up to vote. Like you have to vote. We have to know who our leadership is and the impact that has. And I think the biggest reminder here is that we are all leaders in our own way, right? Like Taylor, you lead your community and your podcasts and things that you do. And Caitlin has such leadership.

And there's things that I do that I lead. But leaders have to remember your job isn't only to lead. your job is to also be led, right? And for me, it's just like, it just screams. We need leadership from every damn angle, and it can't stop. It just can't stop. So, yeah. So how are you going to be a leader, Jason? Yeah, so I think I'm going to, I'm going to listen to exactly the words I just preached. And it's, it's, I always consider myself, like, I need to be in control and I want to lead people. But the thing is, sometimes you got two years in one mouth and you just have to shut up and be led. And, like, this is a huge reminder to me, like, hit the brakes, you know, you know, like, be led, listen, be better.

And what can, you know, you do every, it's not just like a moment. It's not just an, what can you do every single day to put your head to rest and say, like, I've learned, I've impacted people, I've made a difference. But not a day, not a week, like forever. It's something that you teach your children, something that you go forward and you look back on this time saying, I was part of that movement and I did something and put you know teaching your children about it yeah for sure and I think it goes back the reason I was so intrigued and kept bringing you back to the Vanessa conversation as I guess I think for me you know uh paralyism like being paralyzed by fear is a real thing um and there's just it's something that I have to you know I look in the mirror and and this is

such a a wake up call like if you are silent you are participating in it and that is not who I am that's not ever the division I have and you cannot be paralyzed by silence so for me it's just such a huge wake-up call to get active to make a difference and I agree like I love what you said about intent and impact like it's not the intention it's in bad what are you doing are you doing the book club are you having how are you promoting these writers and this information and it's the impact I think that will create longevity yeah and for myself I always think about how dedicated I am to like women

empowerment and having that same dedication now to something I want to see a change in too and using my time wisely to do so. Yeah. And has that women empowerment, that feminism been intersectional? Right.

Right. That's something I need to look at as well. And I have so much learning and growing to do. and I'm so committed to doing that and to asking myself those hard questions and and having these kinds of conversations because that's that's the way to grow yeah well good it's the good work to do and I hope I hope to see some more people of color some more black people on on your platform and on on the podcast as well absolutely you know I

definitely feel like y'all are y'all are in it you're ready to ready to start start learning. Absolutely. Yep. And thank you so much for using your voice. And I hope to talk to you again soon. And just thank you. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for having me. Of course. And just just for everybody listening, where can they go to find you in your podcast? Yeah. So they can find me on Instagram at Tamoka. T-A-M-O-C-H-A. And it is not because I'm brown. Like people always ask me that. They're like, oh, Tay Moka, because you're brown, because you're like black. And no, it's because I'm like a crazy cat lady. And my first cat, her name was Moka Joe.

And she was like my sister. So I just combined her names when I was younger. I was like, we're Tay Moka. But yeah, Tameoka on Instagram. And then the podcast is, let's talk about it. You can find it on any major podcast app. And we also have an Instagram page for that, which is let's talk about it underscore podcast. Perfect.

Awesome. Thank you so much. And I know everyone's, going to take away so much from this podcast so we appreciate it yeah thanks okay have a good night taylor thank you so much thank you too okay bye thanks for listening to off the vine grape therapy tune in to hear new minisodes every thursday and check out new full-length episodes every tuesday exclusively on podcast one dot com the podcast one app and subscribe on apple podcasts with OTV.