Off The Vine with Kaitlyn Bristowe - Lauren Chan | Sports Illustrated’s First Lesbian Cover Star on Breaking Barriers & Coming Out!

Episode Date: September 4, 2025

#873. Kaitlyn sits down with history-making Sports Illustrated cover star Lauren Chan — the first out lesbian and first Chinese person to land the SI Swimsuit cover.Lauren gets real about discovering her sexuality while married to a man, turning heartbreak into pride, and why representation is the driving force behind everything she does. From “gay audacity” to being trolled by Ben Shapiro, to falling in love on set with her now-partner, Lauren doesn’t hold back.She spills about her time on Canada’s Drag Race and The Traitors Canada, admits she’s gunning for a spot on Real Housewives, and reveals her dream of hosting a queer dating show.It’s raw, inspiring, and laugh-out-loud — and by the end, you’ll see why Lauren Chan is a voice we all need right now.If you’re LOVING this podcast, please follow and leave a rating and review below! PLUS, FOLLOW OUR PODCAST INSTAGRAM HERE!Thank you to our Sponsors! Check out these deals!Nutrafol: For a limited time, Nutrafol is offering our listeners $10 off your first month’s subscription and free shipping when you go to Nutrafol.com and enter the promo code VINE.Pura: The Fall Harvest Sale is on at Pura! Head to pura.com and save up to 25% before the season slips away.Lady World: Come Join me for a fun weekend! Get your tickets now at LadyWorld.COEPISODE HIGHLIGHTS: (4:20) — How She Made History: From fashion editor to SI’s first lesbian cover star.(10:45) — Coming Out Shock: Realizing she was gay while married to a man.(24:30) — Reality TV Secrets: Behind the scenes The Traitors Canada + her dream queer dating show.(32:45) — Ben Shapiro Called Her Ugly?! Lauren breaks beauty standards and shuts down critics.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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For a limited time, Nutraful is offering our listeners $10 off your first month's subscription and free shipping when you go to Nutraful.com and enter the promo code, Vine. Pura, the fall harvest sale is on at Pura. Head to pura.com and save up to 25% before the season slips on away. And Ladyworld. Come join me for a really fun weekend and get your tickets now at ladyworld.com. You're listening to Off the Vine with Caitlin Bristow. Hey, Vinoes, real quick, if you are listening right now, which obviously you are or you

wouldn't be hearing this, can you hit the subscribe or follow button on whatever platform you're on? Please, that one simple thing helps more than you even realize it allows me to keep growing on this podcast and making these episodes the best they can possibly be obviously for you. That's the only favorite I'm going to ever ask. okay, it truly means the world to me. Thank you. Now let's get into it. Hey, everybody. Welcome to Off the Vine. Today, we're joined by an absolute force, one of my favorite people, someone who has spent her career redefining what fashion, media, and representation should look like. She's a model. She's an editor. She's an entrepreneur.

She is now making history with Sports Illustrated. And how would you describe the podcast? I just feel like we got into everything today. It's just like a little, it was my third interview of the day and it just got a little chaotic. And so what you see is what you get on this podcast, but I think people like that. I would like to listen to this podcast I just did. So I think you will too. Yeah. It was fun.

It was fun. Oh, my God. I'm coming for the men this week. Something is in the air with the men this week. Why do I agree? Everywhere that I have gone. Have you not been hearing this on every one of my podcasts? Oh, my God.

I've been in two countries this week. And every single place I've been in both countries, a man has been yelling on speakerphone. Oh. Disrupting everything. And it has been driving me so nuts. Yeah. I posted it and everyone who is a beautiful lesbian witch in my DMs tells me that it's Mercury Retrograde and that's why.

When is it not? I don't know, but they're especially feral. They're especially feral right now. I feel like life in general is feral right now. Wait, a man asked me for my smoked cigarette butt while I was smoking it yesterday. He said, was he homeless? Unclair, don't care. Couldn't see past the tunnel vision.

of, uh-oh, this man is going to snatch this out of my face. He said, before you step on that, can't have it? Shut up. Yeah. I immediately called my fiancé to just have a distraction or, like, a barrier. And she was like, eat it, swallow it. Eat it. Right now.

You got out crazy to crazy. I didn't, but I wanted to. Yeah, you thought about it. I thought about it. Oh, that's bad. Yeah, that was bad. And, like, I, that was nothing to shame a homeless man because I work with homeless youth. And it's just more of like a, that would maybe give me like a bit of

hope for men. I, I mean, I'm, I'm pretty anti-man this week. So I'll cross the board. Fair enough. But I have since thought about if I could make money with that. You know, I'm not a footpick girl. The piggies aren't that hot. Yeah. But the cigarette butts, a little lipstick, little gloss. Oh. You think it could be a side hustle? I think it could be a side hustle. For someone that's like trying to quit, but they're just like they need a little hit of something. Well, Lauren Chan. Businesswoman. Remnants. I'm a less work for more money kind of girl. Yeah. It's hard or not harder. Yeah. That is amazing. I mean, you literally have figured it out somehow because think about your life. Just think about it for a second. Think about our life. Yeah. Can you just close your

eyes and take me back? My body, like, you're so mommy to me. You said that and I was like, this is what we're doing. Mamma Sita. I'm a mommy. But, I mean, think about just the waves. Sports Illustrated, I pictured you in the water, but like the waves. Sports Illustrated, have you heard of it? Yeah, it's my goal. What do you mean?

You did it? Yeah, but it was. You did the panel. You did the birthday shoot, girl. Yeah, but now my next one is I want to be in. Okay. Speak it. I do.

It's happening. I was just trying to channel my inner sports illustrator. a diva and I felt so good you got so diva you dunked the hair I did you were like oh I were doing a wet look I bought this house I don't need to fly to the Bahamas I'll do it in my backyard period I own this one I can never say period without sounding like an idiot you like own it like you're like period I'm like yeah period I can't say it but I mean let's talk about you making history okay I mean that does do you ever think about that you're like I made history do you think about it what is or is it more like the both time a little bit of both I guess I feel like my career has been

spent trying to break down the standards of how women are allowed to exist in society by way of who we represent so I was first a fashion editor at glamour I was focused on size inclusive fashion and there I tried to blow up the size ideal and expand product offering content for people above the size of the standard sample in America. Right. It was amazing. I had such a good time. I then started my own plus size business, which was acquired.

And then I came out in Sports Illustrated Swimsuit, and I'm now the first solo lesbian cover. And so I feel like all of those things are important to me in terms of changing the dynamic. That kind of win doesn't just happen. It's not like you just made that win and made history. It's like you've been doing. so much. I've been trying. Yeah. But I, but to answer your question, I think that I care

deeply about my work because of the purpose that it has. And it's never just a picture of me or an article about clothing or what have you. It has the representation of including people who have been left out. And that is of the utmost importance in everything that I do when it comes to work. So I don't necessarily like register or feel that I made history, but I feel that I have the ability to make a difference. And that's what's important. And you are. I mean, you know, you really are. And you're, you're also a light. Thanks. So are you. Thank you. I, I, thank you for your honesty. But I mean, it is, it's just like, sometimes I wonder, like, did this fire always, was it always in you? Or was it something that as you grew older, you realized

the world needed? I think it's always been in me. I grew up playing basketball and was really competitive. Someone recently on a podcast told me that when I told them about the incidences of my life when I was playing basketball, I was doing this job, I was getting this promotion, I was selling this company, what have you, that actually it's called gay audacity. So I don't know if that is something. You had gay audacity? I guess. I mean, I can understand it in the way that if you are not, if you are different in some way. Yeah. And you don't necessarily then believe the structures that exist because you're proof that they aren't absolute, then you have a little bit of the way this is done, audacity, and have the confidence to go do it a new way. Does that make sense?

I love gay audacity. I love gay audacity. You have honorary gay audacity. You have a lot of audacity, highly complimentary. I felt that into my kneecaps when you just said that. That just hyped me right the fuck up. You got gay knees. Gay knees. You got gay knees. I do. I'm two of Oh my, I almost just screamed it in the microphone. I didn't want to follow the audio, but I think we can cut it there. That's probably the best joke we're going to hear all day. Yeah, my knees were outed and that is a plus. Oh, my God, my little gay knees.

That's so funny. That's amazing. Gay audacity. Yeah. So that makes sense because you're like, when the world tries to tell you that it's supposed to be a certain way and you're like, I am living proof. that it's not. So I will fight you on that. And now it becomes your mission. And then it becomes your career and then your passion. And then you get to be the representation that you never had. And that is cool. Yeah. It gives me like a reason to keep doing it. Yeah. I just think it's so

impressive everything that you've done. And like when you were younger, did you ever see yourself as a cover swimsuit? Oh my God. No. I thought I was going to be in the WMBA for sure. Did you really? Yeah. I played pretty high level basketball for a Ontario, almost made the Canadian Junior National team. My teammates, a few of them, went to the WMBA. They were like 6'4, and I used to want to be 6'4 so badly. And then I went to Western with an athletic scholarship. So I really thought that I was going to play professional basketball.

Oh, do you miss it? I do. I think that we, I just talked to Ashlyn Harris about this on her podcast. I just had her on two days ago. Perfect. We're all in the family. She also has gay knees. But what we were talking about was that after college, usually if you

don't go pro you like fall off this cliff in terms of athletics where you don't have the ability to then go out and be physically competitive be a leader be be coached right et cetera et cetera and you kind of just get thrown into the real world so I definitely miss it yeah I still play with my fiancee outside in Brooklyn and she's currently playing in a league that I'll probably play basketball too yeah cool so it's a we play like in a really fun way I love her yeah sometimes I push her around when I when I met her at the New York at the other panel I was like She's a vibe. Oh, my God, she's the best.

Yeah. How did you do me? On set. She's the director, so. Oh. Oh, that's cool. What, on set of what? What are you doing?

It was a fashion commercial. Oh, cool. Oh, that's cool. And then I really, really physically responded to being what told what to do by her, which took me very much by surprise. Like in a good way or bad? Well, I didn't know I was gay. Right.

So I was, yeah. You were married to a man. Yes. Yeah. So I, Haley and I had met yours. prior. At the time, I didn't realize what was happening in my body was desire. And so I What is it confused for? I don't know. I had a mental block. I had a mental block. It was like a wall came down. Yeah. And because I, in hindsight, had all these moments throughout my whole

life. Like, I was really obsessed with supermodels in fashion. Yeah. I like certain TV characters or shows. Um, I gravitated towards queer space. Things like that in hindsight were little gay glimmers. I just didn't think anything of them. Yeah. And yeah, I think I have really learned in the past few years to get in touch with my body and how it's feeling and be able to connect that with my thought process and emotions. So I was horny, basically. Yeah. I didn't know. I was a horny lesbian and I didn't even know it. That, well, what could happen to anyone? It really could. I hope it does for me next. What, like, at what point were you married in your life, what age and then into where you're at now what what is that transition period been so i was married in 2017 and realized that i was

gay within the marriage thanks to covid and having the world shut down and being in intensive therapy and then came out to my husband got divorced that was end of mid to end of 2022 yeah And then came out in 2023, started dating Haley. Yeah. Wow. And I have so many questions. I just love this because I just, of course, in life, no matter what it is, it's never too late for anything.

Yeah. But so many people I know were like, oh, I always knew I was gay. And they were either trying to suppress it or they fully expressed it. And they were. So what kind of moment do you have where it's like, oh, I'm gay? I'm like, that's fascinating. Yeah. In hindsight, I know where they.

were if I had just had the mental ability to break through. Yeah. But in reality, it was a really slow burn. So it was COVID. I had been in therapy just as a human being in therapy, and I had a business at the time. I was super stressed about keeping that business alive. Yeah.

It was really working on that in therapy for the first six months of COVID. I mean, I'm sure we all remember the furloughs of this, the production of that, yada, yada, yada. once the business was in a good spot, we were still in lockdown and isolated for probably at least another six months. And COVID as a concept and a way of living went on for probably another year. And so what I mean to say by that is there wasn't a lot to do. Couldn't go to work, couldn't go to the gym, couldn't hang out with friends. And so you kind of were, sorry, I was really forced to sit with myself. And so I leaned really hard into therapy.

I tried to really grow there and through that process started making some connections. Yeah. It's such a like the pandemic was obviously so traumatic and so hard. And for a lot of people, I feel like they went one of two ways. They either like leaned into being like looking inward and doing therapy and getting comfortable with being uncomfortable or they like got angry because I always call anger a mask for being scared and they just got really angry. And a lot of people, like, I still, to this day, feel like they're traumatized and still continue to be angry instead of, like, just leaning into, you know, that was a really scary time for a lot of us. So I love that you were like, I'm going to really figure out who I am. Trust me.

It would have been easier to never know. Right. But I'm so glad because it was so worth it. I feel really aligned. I feel like my life is one that I built and chose. I feel so proud of myself and what I represent. And, yeah, I'm so lucky to be in love with Haley. So it was definitely very, very, very difficult.

I mean, divorce is the saddest, hardest thing. Of course. It was heartbreaking. Absolutely heartbreaking. I loved my ex-husband dearly. He's definitely my chosen family. Yeah. So it was very, very sad.

Now, are you still able to have a friendship relationship or is that too hard? Yeah. I mean, we don't have, we're not like super in touch. I feel like if, yeah, we're not super in touch, but we're on good terms. Yeah. Yeah. Which is all you can ask for. Yeah.

What I did have an aha moment for was when I realized I was, gay and not buy or pan because when I was thinking I was queer and I wasn't sure where I really felt most aligned on the spectrum and I thought I might be pan. In that case

I could have stayed married, right? Could have opened up the relationship, had a conversation, what have you. There would have been options to not change my life so drastic. Right. And I cried really hard the day that I realized that that wasn't the case and that

everything would have to change yeah that was scary yeah you really that's letting go of a big part of your life of who you were thought you were yeah you were yeah yeah both personally in that relationship but also in the world yeah right like it is so much harder to be accepted when there is no common ground amongst people who don't identify on the spectrum of sexuality when you're on the further end of it besides hard and scary and all the things that you went through when you were like, okay, this is who I am. Did you like have so much fun

fully leaning in and embracing it? Yeah, I'm in a really good spot. I feel that I always call my pride hard earned because it was not without difficulty. Yeah. But it is so worth it. For every point of difficulty, like for every like, yeah, for every point of difficulty,

the reward is as is a little higher actually. Yeah. I'm going to say as high. but a little high yeah i mean yeah it's there's something so magical about feeling aligned in life it's just like you just breathe different yeah yeah you exist different and it's the best yeah okay i know i have and you've probably been the same where you see a million ads for hair growth products and thought okay like that's not actually going to work and same i totally get it but then of course you know i've been a big fan of neutral and it is different it's physician formulated

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nice. Now's the time to stock up. These fresh picked scents won't stick around forever. So head to pira.com and save up to 25% before the season slips away. Your Instagram post when you were like, what did you say saying about like, I'm a power bottom or something? I was divorced and now I'm a power bottom lesbian and I was. It was like, a trend that says, you look happier. And I said, thanks. I divorced my husband and became a power bottom. That's what I mean by alignment right there.

And that to me was just like such an honest, brilliant, real. Listen, I got a DM about that that kind of asked if I was embarrassed or concerned with embarrassing my ex partner or what have you. comes to that and I'm and and and this person you know what I did when I read this DM I did the brittany broskey kombucha face where at first I was like yeah and then I was like because the DM later turned into someone explaining that they two are married to a man for a number of years and have realized that they are likely gay and you know help what do I do how do I get to this point of posting these like funny self-liberating posts and I basically said give it time you know I got divorced in 2022 and everyone loves this TikTok that I put up today and it's it's it's mid 2025 by the time I'm like

making a lighthearted joke about it centering myself my own experience yeah and and and and not disrespecting anybody else no I wouldn't have yes you got to give it time if you're if you're in the situation don't don't don't rush yeah yeah you'll get there that's yeah that's I think that's good advice because I mean look at a lot of people that you look up to you're like how do I get there yeah oh my god and everyone's advice would be like, take your time, it doesn't happen overnight, and that goes for even a relationship or where you get to in your life with your sexuality. Like, it all takes patience and time and understanding and learning.

That's good advice that I constantly try to think about when it comes to work for me. I feel like we see everyone's highlight reels and we think, God, I could do that. I would love to do that. Put me in, coach. Yeah. And we have to remember that in, you know, in your case, say, you know, you know, in your case, say, you know your podcast is what eight years running and you've you've got you know shows in the works and all this stuff and it's like well yeah how you've been at it right forever yeah and to see the end

product and the glimmer um and to feel any type of way about it doesn't make a lot of sense i mean it's it's it makes more sense to to study the path there and to focus on your own path there yeah i talk about a lot about this with manifesting everyone thinks so i manifested everything that i have and I'm like, that doesn't mean I didn't work my ass off for it. It doesn't mean I didn't have all the patience in the world. It doesn't mean the thing that I manifested. Some of it, I wrote down 12 years ago. That's not overnight.

That is over a decade. That I wanted my own radio show. That I wanted to go on television and be an entrepreneur and have two golden retrievers. I wanted a Bronco, afford Bronco. Oh, my God. Yeah. Girl, you might be, you might be gay. Okay, because I have a.

Stop. Okay, so I'm a little gay. I always, you know what? Just the knees? I'm so glad to hear that. Yeah. I, I, I, we, it's a win for the community, I'll tell you that. I always wanted two Dobermans and a G-Wagon, and I got my black rescue shepherd pepper and a wrangler.

And Haley, so I think it levels out. You know what I mean? I'll take it. I remember a girl asking me at a conference once she was like, well, I want to quit my job and not be this and do this. And it's not happening for me. And I'm like, when do. Did you decide this? Yeah.

It's like last year and I'm like, I wanted what I have now 12 years ago. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like something that I recently have been telling myself because I'm kind of in an era of uncertainty when it comes to work. I've kind of always been either in publishing where the, you know, the promotions and the advancements are really clear or I had my own business, which obviously the goal is to have that acquired. Yeah.

And now I'm kind of free floating in this like model, TV host, public lesbian kind of way. and there's no clear next step. And so what I've been telling myself is that the best thing I can do is to focus on what I'm doing and consider it an audition for the thing that I don't know exists yet. And that's tough. But it is true. It's like the Megan Markle clip that went viral or she's like, I haven't seen it yet.

Yet? Do you know what I'm talking about you? No. She's like, it was one of those like, not everybody should have a podcast. And it was a woman asking her like what her next plans are. She goes, I don't know yet. And then the woman was like, the power of yet. And then they were like, yeah, I don't know what's happening in my life.

Yet. And they like really. So easy to be comfortable with that when you never have to work. I will say, I do wish for that. I want to win the lottery so bad because I'd be so happy. I don't think so. I think you like working. I would, but I would still work.

I love to work. I love what I do. Listen, it's like a what comes first, the chicken or the egg. I work in what I work in what I. I love doing, so I love to work. Yeah. But I wouldn't be so stressed about where the next bag is coming from. I stress.

I was so chill in my 20s about money that I would have $5 in my bank account and I would go, I don't know how I'm going to pay around. I'll just figure it out. More money, more problems. And now I'm like, why am I stressed about money now when I've worked so hard to get where I'm at and I'm, it's not like I'm quitting tomorrow because I can afford anything. No, I'm still working really hard. But I'm like, why do I stress? Yes. The world at large is very stressful. Okay. You know what? Fair enough. Fair enough.

Scary times. And then people are always like, go back to Canada then. And I'm like, that's also. Yeah. Also scary over there. I really thought about, listen, I would love to live in Toronto. I wish that there was more creative work there. I also want to get to a point where I feel mentally allowed to leave New York. Yeah. Really? I'm just waiting for it to dawn on me one day that I feel like. Well, I do feel... Good job, kid. You can go now. I do feel like that's a thing. Yeah. I hope... I'm hoping so.

Because it's such a grind and it's such a, like, draining city in the best way. But, like, just so much. And then you, I think you do get to a point where you're like, oh, I think I'm done here. Yeah. I'm like a sub in that way. I really have to be told or feel that I can do something. Yeah. You can't tell yourself that? That's, I mean, this is for another... This is for another podcast. This is for therapy. Like this is for therapy, not for Off the Vine. Got it. I want to talk about you being on screen. Okay. Again, you keep saying this and I go, okay. All right, let's go there. You were on Canada's drag race.

Yes. Cool. Good morning America. Yes. And then Traders Canada. Yeah. Wait, that, right? I got to get back on reality TV. So I'll take your recommendations. Yeah. You like it? Okay. I say it immediately out of the jump because it's not that I have. have to go back because I'm like obsessed with being on it. It's that I learned a lot after two years that I would do it so differently. What would you do? So so differently. Has it aired in Canada yet? Yes.

Yeah. I was the runner, one of the runner reps. Shut up. Yeah. Who else was on that I would know? Netta from Big Brother Canada. Yeah. Melinda from Drag Race.

Yeah. And then one of my other friends on the show was Trana Winter, a comedian, Canadian trans comedian. Amazing. And then I had a few other friends. One was called Kira. One was called Dylan. I love that you're Canadian, obviously, because I am.

But what made you want to, like, go explore the entertainment space and in Canada? Okay, wait, I have to finish my thought on before we got. Did I cut you off? No, shy about Sarah. Okay, so I went and I played the game really hard. I'm, like, so competitive. And so I was like, I had 60 pages of notes. Really?

Oh, my God, bitch. I was in the forest doing rope shit with a firefighter. I was, like, fighting with men. then, which they cut to make me softer, and I'm so sad. So if anybody has the clips of me fighting with men on TV, I need it for my housewives audition. Please send it through. Housewives of what? Toronto?

Toronto. Oh, fun. Brooklyn, New York. I'll move anywhere. I'm looking at all the cameras. You really want to do that? I don't know which one's on me. Yeah, I would love to.

Really? Because now I realize the point wasn't necessarily to play the game. It was to have fun. I want to go. have fun. I want to fight over Sauvignon Blanc. Okay. That's what I thought we were going to do today. Oh, damn it. Damn it. I, why didn't I think of that? Anyways, so I wanted to do reality again because I really want to go and take the piss out of it. Have fun. Enjoy myself. Be more of a representative of who I am as a human, who I represent. And maybe if it wasn't a competitive social experiment game show, I wouldn't focus so hard on the game. Look, you say that you'd go back and have fun,

but you'd be just as competitive again the second time, if not more. Because I think... But I'd say funnier one-liners, I think. Yeah, okay. I want to host a lesbian, queer lesbian, something like that dating show. Yeah. I think that would be really, but... I've always thought they need, like, queer, gay bachelor.

Yeah. I do feel like you also have magnetic energy, which is good for TV. Oh, thank you. You do. And? And, were you always comfortable in front of the camera, or is that something that you had to grow into? I'm really comfortable in front of the camera now, but it came from a place of self-consciousness. So I think that I, it's different with modeling than it is being on TV.

I was going to ask the difference. With modeling, it came from a place of insecurity because I was so self-aware and self-conscious of what I looked like from every angle with every movement that it actually trained me to know every muscle. my body and what the camera was going to pick up, how the clothes would lay, which are all the things a model needs to be considering. And so now that that turned itself on its head and it makes for good modeling, I feel relaxed and confident about having that skill and can then lose the self-consciousness that that started from in the first place. I think on TV, my job is to, as I learned with traders, as I have been applying with drag race, some other fun shows that I've filmed that are coming out in the fall. And with live TV on E-Talk and the social.

My job is to have fun and have the people watching have fun and say the messages that I care about in terms of representation or challenging stereotypes, whatever. And so if my job is to just be myself and have fun, I can do that. What a dream. What a dream. It's the dream. I talk about it on so many podcasts. Like to be successful and do what you love and just be able to be you is the dream.

Right? Yeah. So I filmed something this week that has to do with fashion and I wore a really crazy. crazy outfit. And one of the folks who was also filming with me said, you look, you look so fun. I love this. And I said, thank you. I put it on my body so that I felt fun and could show up and like be in that energy. Yeah. Oh, I totally believe in like what your, how you show up. Like, for example, Bailey. She was in Nashville and I was like, oh, you can totally wear that. It's so Nashville. And she goes, I don't dress for cities. And I was like, I do. I go to New York and I put on things I would never put on

in Nashville. I love putting on different outfits for different cities. Like I am so, I smoke cigarettes in Europe, for God's sakes, and I don't smoke here. Well, the gluten doesn't hit the same over there. It doesn't hit the same over there. That is wine, gluten, cigarettes, everything hits different over there. It's so true. But I, what you on the panel that one day, God, did you ever look fire? You had like done the eyebrows up here. How do you do that? Did you do your own makeup? No. My friend Alex Levy does my makeup when I really, pull a look. And so that day, well, I showed up to Sports Illustrated this year after having dressed a little more queer, a little more drag inspired by queer designers last year. And

with the cover this year, really wanted to turn that up. And so the place that we took it there was with the makeup. And so my friend Alex Levy had bleached my eyebrows, blocked them down a little bit, and drawn a single black line of a brow on top of it. I was wearing a suit. I had my hair slicked up and had a big wide tie on. And so I wanted to feel like myself and I wanted to feel different. Sometimes when I get in those environments, I feel really insecure because I'm not the same as most of the folks there and I'm not necessarily the same as what that institution has represented and who that has been for.

And so actually, if I lean more into the fact that I'm not, I can draw more confidence instead of trying to focus on the ways that I can be like that. That makes so much sense. Yeah. And what I actually really have been loving about Sports Illustrated over the last few years is just how much they are celebrating more people. Oh, yeah. You know, like it has changed so much.

Like, Victoria's Secret is like a dying breed because we're all so sick of seeing, not that there's anything wrong with those women. They're beautiful. But we want to see more relatable people and more diverse people and like so much. And I feel like Sports. Illustrated has really gotten into that. Yeah, I agree. Age wise, too.

Everything wise. I wrote an essay for the issue this year that is called for the girls. It's basically about who Sports Illustrated swimsuit is for and how that's changed. Because when my images were posted this year, I usually don't, I'm not too bothered by trolls and I eat them back up with something funny. But one comment really, really got under my skin this year because a man said, who are we even doing this for anymore? Women, this makes zero sense. Sir, you know, it lived rent-free in my head because it wasn't like the usual fatphobia, transphobia, racism that I get. It was a really esoteric question of like, you are for men.

Yeah. This is for men. You are an object for us to perceive and we don't like this. I see what to throw up. Listen, we can do that in private. In public, we educate and we eat them up. And so the essay is really about how that brand has changed who. they're for over time. It's for women now. It's totally for women. Yeah, it's a vehicle of

inspiration, of representation. Yes. And it's come a really long way. So I'm really, really proud of that. I'm proud of you for that. Thanks. You're part of it. Likewise. Well, I, you, that comment would get under my skin. Right. But I mean, I just can't imagine the comments of like women who are supposed to be for the men. Oh, God. Because they've built that audience, right? that audience is already built in. The Sports Illustrated swimsuit audience is now majority women. Good. And listen, men don't like that.

They really don't like that. Ben Shapiro made a real calling me ugly when I got my cover. I don't know. Oh, yeah. And it just sounds so stupid to me. Good. I really don't. It basically says that because my whole thing is to break down the beauty ideal or the beauty standard,

he said that only ugly people try to do that. And then use the example. I think that that's like a stupid person trying to break down the concept of intelligence. And you know what? I think you did, sir. Yeah. I think you did, sir. Yeah.

Anything mankind has ever learned in the history of time comes from obliterating the concept of narrow-mindedness. Thank you. We've never moved forward as a society by not expanding our minds. Yeah. The earth was flat. Electricity didn't exist. Period. Period.

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Tickets are available now at ladyworld.co. That's ladyworld, L-A-D-Y-world.com. But hurry up because they are really going fast. Lady World presented by Elf Cosmetics takes over Destin this September. I do want to ask just a couple things about you being an entrepreneur. Okay. Because I do find... Okay. There she goes. I do find it like interesting how your life before you were like kind of changing the game behind the scenes and now you're like in front of the camera.

Yeah. And I just like that transition of everything because you were, I think we talked about the fact that you were an editor at Glamour. And then you become a founder of your own brand, Henning, right? Is that you say? Okay. So I feel like you've been championing body inclusivity. Body exclusivity. I was going to say exclusive. Cancelor.

Cancelor. Don't even edit that. Let's shut the lights off. Let's wrap. Let's wrap. We should have ended up. My publicist is a shirt in the car. She's over there doing this.

Inclusivity. Before it was trendy. You're going to hear first, folks. People never forget, Caitlin. Well, never forget. Well, guess what? Hey, editor. No.

We got to keep that. That was so funny. I love you. I knew that you would never say anything. You can also hear the panic. in my voice, you rewind, and here when I went, your lip just trembled. How did you do that?

Wow, she's an actress. Oh my God, the acting school of Bristol. Wow. I did take acting class once. Wow, that's really good. You know, another thing that I should have known I was gay is that one of my favorite scenes ever is the first scene of killing Eve.

Jody Comer has this moment where you're supposed to, as the audience, understand that she's a sociobi or a psychopath. And all she does is twitch these labial muscles. I can twitch those. Did you just get turned on? Do it. Okay.

Oh my God. Yeah. That was okay. We're going to do take two. I hope they zoom on that way. So you're going kind of dead in the eyes? I was totally going dead.

Oh my God, we're not just go. Girl, I don't know if you want to know. I don't know if we should know. I wasn't anywhere. I was disassociated. Yeah. And I was living through here. No, that was clear.

That was clear. There was no subtext. This is how I know I'm on my last interview of the day, too, as I started getting so delusional. It's fun. It is fun. Wait, can I try it one more time? Yeah. It's your podcast.

So what? She twitches, was I even doing? Okay, so I will say, if I could give some notes, if I could give some notes. Okay. I'll take the feedback. I believe if my surprised canis is serving me right, Jody twitches the muscle one time. Oh. And so we're getting more of a vibration over here, which I'm sure has its moments of use. Trust me, make of that what you will. I was trying to channel like an inner, like bunny rabbit. Like, yeah. Okay, so you said you do Pilates, right? Yeah. Let's go with this. Try to isolate. And just give me a one rep. There you go. But I went somewhere else again. Oh, you take direction well. Thank you. Yeah. Okay. Good to, good to know. So you being an entrepreneur. What the fuck is happening? Oh. So about that supply chain. How'd you figure that out? I like interviewing, but I like more of like just conversations happening. I hear you. And seeing. where it goes. So the fact that this started off by me accidentally almost saying exclusivity into like trying to... A real recession indicator. A real recession. We're deep down

now. Yeah. I mean, we've already been recording for an hour. I can wrap anyways. But I do want to know what are you the most excited about right now? Oh my gosh. What are I the most excited about? You know, I'm going to say this so that it codes in my brain. Yeah. I'm the most excited about not knowing what's going to happen next for me and not knowing what strategy exactly I have while holding space, hold my finger please, for the fact, how many funds or meme lines can we put into one sentence? Holding space for the fact that all the things that are great in my life right now, I couldn't conceptualize. I didn't know we're coming. And so hopefully that's more TV, more queer representation, maybe a little writing, and creativity, and a whole lot

of being myself. I just feel like you're already doing all of these things, but like I think taking the pressure off what's next with strategy is so something that I'm working on too, because I'm like, when I'm not trying so hard is when I am free and like, and then find myself to, doing all the things that I love to do. Yeah, listen. And the best thing... I'm also tired.

Yeah, well, oh my God. I really could go on such a tangent here, but I think that we live in a world that's totally made up in every way, shape, and form. When you're queer, you inherently know that because we got told that one of the major institutions of this society is heteronormativity, where proof that that is not absolute.

And so if you apply that to other institutions like capitalism, marriage, what have you, you know that there's wiggle room there for how you're allowed to exist. Yeah. So I think that anyways, I actually forget what I was talking about because I'm trying not to go full conspiracy. Well, I just went to your, that ring on your finger. What were we talking about? Thank you.

What are we talking about? Are you really going to ask me after I said I'm brain dead after three interviews? This should be the highlight to get people to watch the show. This whole episode is just going to be called Caitlin. Not everybody has to have a podcast. No, because I, it's worth really hard to be here. No, I totally think you deserve that podcast. It's got to be one of the longest running pods on the market, no?

Yeah, really, yeah. I mean, podcasting, you started producing podcast 10 years ago, Miles? Yeah. So, and I've been doing this for eight and a half, so. Yeah. This is how I end the podcast. If you were to write a book, what would you write about? If I were to write a book, I would write a book about, like,

lesbian love and compulsory heterosexuality that helps people understand that society is set up in order to encourage you to be straight. And because of that, a lot of people don't have the wherewithal self-awareness, safety to consider to challenge that. They might be queer. And I think a lot more people are queer than say that they are, then know that they are. And I think that we need more material in the world, whether it's like a funny TikTok or a book or a TV show or a conversation that helps awaken that in people because, you know, if people are really living to the best of their ability to be true to themselves, their lives would be better and the world would literally be a better place. Be gay. Like, be gay. The book is going to say,

be gay. Or Caitlin. You know, the dedication. Yeah, please. For Caitlin and her knees, drop the joke, Caitlin. It's not funny anymore. My girlfriend was going to a drag show the other day and she was like, I'll never understand people, what is wrong with this? People like having the best time entertaining, being themselves, literally just like being the, and I went, well, it's because they're gay. They're just mad that they can't accept that they're gay and they don't know how to process that they're gay. They're just gay. They're really scared of us. They're really scared. Everybody who has a stake in controlling what society looks like for their own benefit or the benefit of upholding their small group of generally like wealthy,

white, cisgender, straight men is really scared of everyone who is able to buck the notions of everything that you're supposed to do to be considered normal and successful and safe in order to be free. Yeah. And so that's why, in my opinion, there's so much effort put into. controlling trans children not being able to participate in sport, limiting the ability of trans people to identify how they want to on their documentation and literally travel or live that way to now they're, you know, thinking about repealing gay marriage. Whatever they can do

to scare us, they're going to try to do. And we need to know that we have the power to resist that, that joy is part of the resistance, that intersectionality is part of that. And that resistance and we have to just keep showing up we've always been here we're not going anywhere yeah like how do they think they can put a lid on that it's crazy to me no they won't they just won't um well thank you so much for just being you and for having thanks for having me i encountered a lot of men on the way here so thank you for saying thank you you're welcome for coming i'm so glad i'm not a man right now because you would have not shown up here today no there's no way tell everybody where they can find you what was i what yeah where people can find you i don't remember after that

what is who am i where am i what is your instagram my l c chan because l l c chan is such a common name everything is taken yeah so it's l my middle name is caroline if anybody actually if you actually cared about me it's gonna be my first question because i cared and i forgot it's l c chan l c chan i was why did i think it's l l chan yeah yeah it's your You're a good follow. You're a good person. Thank you. You're making a difference.

And I love you. I love you, too. And your little duck boots. I'm not even wearing a choose. Okay, somebody take me off the mic. Bye. This September, CBS hits are streaming free on Pluto TV. For this month only, streamful episodes of Madlock.

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The CBS shows you love this month only on Pluto TV. Stream now, Payne Never. I'm Justin Sylvester, and I'm Blakely Thornton. Join us for Yesterday's, the podcast where we break down the most pivotal pop culture moments in history and give them the queer love that they deserve. The things that got us riled up during dial-up. Those makeouts that should have been breakouts. And the drops that were cemented in pop.

I'm talking Benefer. Tyra versus Naomi. Tom Cruise jumping on that couch. And so much more. So please rate us, subscribe to us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or anywhere you get audio-related content. We also take Memo. And cash-up. ACH?

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