Off The Vine with Kaitlyn Bristowe - Liz Plank | Redefining Masculinity, Dating Dilemmas, and Embracing Aging!

Episode Date: April 23, 2024

#730. Step into the world of Liz Plank as she joins Kaitlyn Bristowe for a lively chat on Off the Vine! Liz, an acclaimed journalist, author, and activist, shares her journey into feminism and activism, tackling the complexities of masculinity head-on. Get ready for eye-opening insights from her bestselling book, 'For the Love of Men: A New Vision for Mindful Masculinity.' Explore Liz's real-life experiences and social media adventures as she challenges gender stereotypes and advocates for vulnerability in men. From shaking off outdated ideas about masculinity to exploring the modern dating scene, Liz's wisdom shines through! And don't miss out as Liz dives into the topics of aging and overcoming Millennial Imposter Syndrome , offering empowering advice for listeners on their journey of self-discovery! If you’re LOVING this podcast, please follow and leave a rating and review below! PLUS, FOLLOW OUR PODCAST INSTAGRAM HERE! EPISODE HIGHLIGHTS (4:40) - Insight into Liz's journalistic background and her motivation behind writing "For the Love of Men: A New Vision for Mindful Masculinity." (23:09) - Liz challenges societal biases by highlighting women's roles in prehistoric times and their contribution to their tribes. (33:21) - Liz shares her experiences and challenges in dating while being knowledgeable about masculinity. Does it help or hurt her? (39:06) - Kaitlyn opens up about her new dating philosophy and desire for a deeper connection before fully committing to a relationship. (47:15) - Liz shares insights on millennial imposter syndrome and discusses the fears and perceptions surrounding aging. Thank...See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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If you have questions or concerns about your gambling or someone close to you, please contact Conix Ontario at 1866-531-2600 to speak to a advisor free of charge but mGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with i gaming ontario off the vine hey everybody welcome to off the vine i'm your host katelyn bristow today we have liz plank on the podcast who i have been dying to get on the podcast for so long i went into my dms to tell her how excited i was to have her on the podcast and realized that i like

fan girled over her a while back was like you've changed my life and i think she's going to change yours too from this podcast She is a feminist and we talk about how difficult that might be to be a feminist talking about masculinity when you're a woman talking about a man. But we dive into all of that. We talk about dating in this day and age. We talk about her book. We talk about gender equality, all of the things and buckle up for this one because these two women are going to teach you about men. You move to L.A. And it's like you have to start doing like green juice and saunas and like go gluten free. It's like a thing. I've become the person that I could not not stand.

Like a year ago, if I met me, I'd be like, I'm not going to be friends with this person. And I am fully that person now. It's very weird. It's not okay. Like, it's not acceptable. But I'm doing it. Hey, I actually have a question about this. How do you find out that you have black mold in your body?

Okay, so you go to like a really expensive doctor that is like, okay, so she's a functional medicine. Basically, the true end of it, the truth of it is that I got long COVID. And I didn't know that I had long COVID. I just had all of these really wild, you know, issues and had like all these vaginal health issues, which I would have never thought was connected, but can be. And so she ran a bunch of tests. And then through running the tests, she was like, you, did you ever grow up with mold? I was like, yeah, our basement had full on mold.

Like, it was just like a known thing. And she was like, you have had mold in your body since then. So you have to do these. P sample like you have to like do like pee poop like they you you go for it yeah like you are UPSing your samples to some some person who's then going to diagnose you but it's um I don't know I don't recommend doing it like finding out because once you do it's like a year of your life you have to take binders you have to yeah sauna it's like a nightmare I mean I hope it helps and I hope it makes you feel better but that's like me with this new aura ring like I got it and now

I go down like rabbit holes of why my sleep score isn't where it should be like my blood oxygen level like I'm going down like a slippery you know too much yes yes oh my gosh okay well I'm never going to get it and you never find out if you have mold and we that then that'll be it we're just going to live in that world where ignorance is bliss but not the world that you're in I okay this is what I was going to tell you before because yes I'm like a little bit embarrassed but also I'm telling you so how embarrassing can it really be but with the the first part of it isn't embarrassing. It's actually quite sweet, but the second part is. So I don't remember when I started following you, but I was like, I need to have her on my podcast. Like, this is somebody that I, I feel like I've maybe even reached out before because I've wanted to talk to you so badly. And then I realized today when we were talking, I went to DM you or say something about excited. And I had sent you a DM. And I had said, like, I just want you to know that you've changed my life. And like I said, but, but we. Which is sweet, and I meant it because I got so embarrassed that you were going to see it.

I deleted it today because I was like, she's going to think I'm a psycho. Caitlin, why would you delete words of affirmation as I love language? Now I'm never going to get to see it. That's, first of all, I want to apologize that I missed this amazing message. It sounds wonderful. And I can't, I'm so glad that I was helpful in whatever way that you now don't even remember, but that at the time felt, you know, meant something to you. it makes me really happy. It's not embarrassing at all. Well, I'm embarrassed that I deleted it because I was like, why did I get? Like, why did I delete that? And well, now I'm telling you. So here are your words of affirmation. You have changed my life. I love what you're doing with your platform. You're so, I love having knowledgeable people on the podcast in things that I'm passionate about because I always say that what I think and feel, it's sometimes really hard for me to articulate. And you articulate things and the way that I feel so perfectly and beautifully. And that

It just makes me very excited to have you on the podcast today. And just for those that are listening, I wanted you to maybe just share with us a little bit about your background and kind of what inspired you to pursue this career that you're in. Wow. Well, thank you so much, Caitlin. I'm very, very hardened by your kind words. Yeah, so I, you know, basically have been a journalist for 10 years. I wrote a book about masculinity called The Love of Men.

I always have been really, yeah, I've always been very infuriated by the state of things and just by the fact that we live in a society that is so unequal for so many people and particularly for women. And so, yeah, back in 2012, I was living in London. I was doing a graduate program in gender and social policy. And I, like, started this petition around, like, the Olympics. They wanted to force female boxers to wear skirts in the ring. and like this was the first time that email that female boxing was even going to be a discipline

which is wild that that was like it took until 2012 um and then i started this petition and with like send it to like my 33 twitter followers and was like i'm so annoyed and then it yeah i wrote a piece and the piece went viral and then like they changed the rule like it like worked and so i became really excited about the internet i became and really excited about digital journalism and just social media and how I could use it to need people who were making things happen and how we could all use it together to change the world. So yeah, since then, I feel like that was kind of, I was a one-hit wonder. I don't know if I've done something as big as that first thing. I did randomly. You have probably without knowing

it though. Like you probably have done so many big things. Like you don't even know some of the lives you are touching and you might not see it as much, you know, that one. thing that you did but it's it's it's really cool because i always say that the internet and as you know can be such a blessing and a curse and you talk about the power of social media and like falling in love with the internet and finding you know like a big enough platform to make a change and then you see that you one person can make that difference by you know like getting people to rally behind you and i i was wondering this while you were saying it does the internet now have the same impact you do you get excited or do you do you get on there and

and go, I'm feeling hopeful for our future? Or do you get on there and go, I am scared for our next generation? All of the above. I think that it's definitely become more complex and complicated. It's become bigger, right? I think the pace of technology has definitely outweighed our ability to regulate it and to ensure that it's not used for nefarious. things or that it has, you know, bad impacts on us.

I wish that our government was awake and, like, wasn't sleeping, you know, at the wheel around this. I think it's, you know, again, there's a million theories about why. One of them is probably because they're, most of them are balding old white men who maybe aren't, right? The primary targets are, or aren't the most vulnerable with an unregulated internet. But at the same time, I do think, I don't want to be doom and gloom about it. You know, I think that we, there's so much good that happens on the internet. There's, you know, at this point, it's just the space, right? It's like, and humans are in that space.

And so blaming just the environment and is sort of, I think, unproductive. But I think that, no, I think there's so much potential that we can do with it. I mean, even we're talking, we wouldn't be having this conversation if it wasn't for the internet. So it's so become, I think, an integral part of our lives that we don't even notice it and sort of notice the ways that it is, that it does improve our relationships and our lives. So no, I, as much as I think we're witnessing what happens when there's no guard whales, I do still believe in the internet making the world a better place for sure, yeah.

Yeah. And it helps me to just think that way, too, because you can always look for the bad and find the bad. You can always look for the good and find the good. And it's depending on what your appetite is on the internet, you can really like, you know, you can do research. You can, it can be educational. It can bring people together. It can be a really beautiful space if you want it to be. And I feel like that's kind of what you're doing. And I do want to talk about your book. But you said something that made me think where you said, you know, it's these old balding white men who are. are just like they don't get it and they don't get it in a lot of ways. Like I'll never forget seeing one of, I can't remember even who it was, but when they were doing the banning the IVF in, I can't even remember what state. That was Alabama? In Alabama.

Yeah, recently. Yeah. And this one man said, like, I know it must be really tough. And I'm like, I can't even do it. But I'm thinking, okay, they're old, sadly people die. So do you think that generation, like,

will actually be gone and then this new beautiful generation will come through or are these people passing on these messages to the younger generation like I just I guess I'm searching for a little bit of hope yeah no I think that there's plenty to be hopeful about you know something that that's that I did try and do with my book and that I that I try and do with all of my writing you know on substack and and even with the post that I do like I really really think that apathy is our biggest you know is is apathy is the best gift that we can give to these balding old white men, right? Is thinking that we don't matter

and that what we say doesn't matter is that's the greatest threat, I think, to justice and equality. So I really try with all of my writing to have a framework of solution-based journalism to make sure that I am not just depressing people with the things that I'm writing, but that I'm actually, you know,

and even there's sort of a difference even between like high-rass emotions and low arousing emotions like low arousing emotions or sadness or you know um you know again apathy depression uh but even if you make someone angry if you make someone like that already to me is better because that makes them more likely to act right it makes them not more it makes them more likely to get out of bed and to join a movement or to you know look in their community and sort of look at who who needs help um so i i really really try and show people yeah i really try not to to depress people and try with every piece of writing to either make them feel better about the

world or make them feel better about themselves. And I think that mental health actually is a political act in that way. I think that taking care of our mental health and making sure that as a collective, we are taking care of each other and ourselves makes us more, you know, better citizens and more engaged citizens. Because, yeah, I think a lot of the barriers to action is, yeah, us believing that nothing's going to change when, like, things are constantly changing. And even your, you know, mention of what happened in Alabama, the internet, right, people responding, people like you, people, you who are listening to your podcast, you know, being

activated, whether it is online or in person or, you know, when they're, you know, writing into their newspaper, whatever it is, right? politicians were shaking in their boots like like rickie haley at first you know supported it and then literally a few hours later pulled back um there are people um you know there was one particular congressman who a congresswoman i'm forgetting her name now but um she literally like realized that this was bad and it made her look bad to support it so she was like oh this is awful like IVF is this beautiful thing and then journalists went into her voting record and she had supported a person Amendment and actively fought for it for the last two years, which would make IVF illegal, right?

And she got IDF herself, right? And so to me, there's a lot of power in these stories. And, you know, and again, like from a media perspective, what you think and what you say really matters. Like, it used to be that, you know, social media would be a reflection of the news, but now the news is a reflection of social media. So what you're saying out there in the time in the town square is what journalists are paying attention to and going to be reporting on and you know probing politicians about so it really you know yeah the the worst mistake you can make is underestimate your own power as a citizen of the world it's interesting too because your book you know you explore masculinity and gender equality and it's an international

bestselling book and went into its fifth printing, which is wild because you were saying that it was selling, it's selling more now than it did when it came out in 2019. Now, I can guess why that is, but you tell me why you think that is. I mean, it's funny because when I wanted to write it and I was bringing the proposal around to different publishers, I was told, you know, no, I literally was told word for word, no man will buy this book. Like men will not buy this, by, by, by this book. And I remember at the moment at that time, I don't know if you've ever had moments like that in your life where you're like, I'm going to remember this quote so that when I'm on a panel, when I'm on an amazing podcast, talking to someone about my book being so successful,

I'm able to say that someone said that to me, right? Like where it's almost when you're told no, it's almost like a dare to get a yes. You know, right? That is so me. Yes. I. That is so me. Yes. I did the same thing with, I was told no, the, everybody knows the story that listens to my podcast, but I'm going to repeat it just for you. But the creator of the Bachelor and the Bachelorette, he did not like me. He always wanted like more of a girl next door, all American sweetheart and like, didn't like my tattoos, didn't like that I was more outspoken, didn't like my sense of humor, like nothing. But the world that watches the Bachelor was craving like a different kind of person coming into this role. And so he had to, you know, just kind of surrender to me being

this lead. And then after he let all of the men who were the bachelors go on dancing with the stars. And when it came time for they asked me to go on dancing with the stars, he said, no, I'm sick of you wanting fame after the show and all this stuff. And dancing is like in my blood. My mom was a professional ballerina. It's been like, that's my favorite show on television. I dreamt one day of dancing on that stage. And when he told me, no, I went, you watch me. And I did not give up that dream for five years. And the internet rally behind me. And I went on five years later and won.

Wow. Oh my God. Wait, what? Yeah. And I was like, but that's the best story ever. That's crazy. So you know, I know what you're saying.

So, okay, continue. Sorry, I had to tell you that story. Wow. I love that. I love that. And I love that you share it and you should share it as often as you want. and can because we all you know again it's hard to remember that right when you're in the moment where you're being told by someone in a position of authority right like i've never written a book

i've never done this before it was really hard even just writing the book proposal felt like it was trying to like kill me and this person's like you should write a different book you should do this this won't work this won't you know so and just to like one more little story uh related to that is that one of the people that passed on the book was a very big, one of the top publishing houses. And I went on Morning Joe, the morning my book came out to talk about the book. And her boyfriend was like getting ready

and leaving earlier than he usually leaves. And she was like, why are you in such a rush? She was like, oh, I have to stop by Barnes & Noble before I go to work. And she was like, why? He's like, I have to buy this book. I just saw it on Morning Joe. It's like, it's called for the love of men.

And this woman was like, That's the book I passed on. Like her boyfriend was, and so she texted my editor. I still have, I should frame this. Where she said, I never knew. She said when Liz, you know, presented her book to us, I couldn't imagine the kind of guy that would buy this book. And now I'm dating him.

You know, it's like, it's just, anyway. I mean, it's like, it's just believing in your, in yourself. And I think men obviously are indoctrinated to believe in themselves. I think beyond even their capacity. and abilities. And I think actually that comes from a place of feeling inferior. I don't think the whole thing about men being confident and like I'm really interrogating that whole structure and and sort of that whole idea because I truly think that that they're

not confident. They're they're cocky, right? Like they're told to inflate and to sort of, yeah, inflate their abilities and their capabilities, but people who do that, it's not because they feel great about themselves is because they're not feeling good about themselves, right? So having a healthy sense of who you are, I think is very different from sort of this, yeah, sort of macho model that we sort of have out there from a lot of white men. But I don't remember what your question was, but I'm glad that we're talking about these kind of stories and that we're, you know, I think we have to remind ourselves of those

moments in our lives so because it you know hindsight is always 20 20 but you know there's a version of that right now for you in your life right like of someone telling you you're not able to do something or you you know questioning yourself and it's important to think of like future you know and and sort of yeah what's possible outside of that framework yeah because it is scary it's it's scary when you are speaking up for what you believe knowing that the higher power can shut you down and shut you up and and not give you what you deserve and so i remember not even thinking twice about calling this person out knowing like i'm under contract he could sue me he could literally do whatever he wants and take everything away from me and i still took it to the internet and twitter

and i was like i called it and i yeah i was just like sogeny is real like i was just so angry but it it it felt like something that i couldn't hold back and i just think i think it's so cool now to know that men are buying that book. You know, you are now on these panels talking about where your book is at and where it's going. And it gives me a lot of like excitement too because I think when you are a feminist, people think you hate men. And it's really like, you know, you probably have faced a lot of challenges in your, in your space, being a woman speaking on masculinity. Have you had a hard time with that or have you faced challenges like that? Yeah, of course. I mean, it's, and at the beginning, I think I faced resistance from men who were like, why are you writing about men? You should write about women. And then women who are like, why are you writing about men? You should be writing about women. But right, like, from a different perspective of both sides being kind of upset that I was, that I was, yeah, focusing on men. And again, I get, I get why these publishers were like, your audience is female. Why would you write a book for men? Like, why would you write a book about men? If it's, it's, it's, that's not your audience. But I really couldn't help myself. And I found that, you know, putting love in the title, right? Like for the love of men was,

and just throughout the book really coming at it from an empathetic and sort of compassionate perspective. Did help a lot, like a lot of men would, yeah, sort of see my stuff or see me on an interview or even just talk to me and be like skeptical and then read the book. I mean, even like, it haven't me in Quebec. I'm from Canada. There was a journalist that had me on the, wait, really?

Yeah, I'm from Edmont. I'm from Edmonton. Oh my God, no way. Okay, that's why this is, again, now we, Canadians are clicking. Connection. Oh my God, no way. But I had a journalist, when my book came out in Quebec and French, I had a journalist, you know, your book comes out, you have a bunch of interviews that, you know, that first week. And it was very combative. It was, it was kind of weird, right he he wasn't he's not a right-wing guy but but i went in expecting it to be kind of run-of-the-mill and it was much more he was very skeptical and i love that and you're being like okay whatever and then a few weeks later he wrote a column in a newspaper where he was like i actually read her book and i changed my entire mind about it like like i having not read it and like regretted

kind of you know doing that kind of having that kind of interview right so so i think that those really, you know, meant a lot to me. And, and again, like, I want there to be friction and discomfort. And, you know, those are the conversations that are worth having, right? And same with race and, you know, some of the best growth that I've experienced and seen and sort of witnessed, you know, with conversations around race are, you know, conversations that were really challenging or, you know, that I didn't want to have. have um and so and so it's yeah i feel good about the fact that it's making and it's made me think right like there's things that i talk about in the book i went like on a chivalry diet like i was like

okay wait i'm writing about how men are obeying you know sort of obeying all of these dating rules about you know approaching dating in a very transactional way but i'm kind of approaching it in transactional way if i'm expecting them to pay and to do all these things and so i just was like okay, I have to, I also have to make some changes. I still now have to come around that I think men should pay on the first date and maybe the first you. But anyway, that's kind of for a different conversation. But yeah, that's the same way. Why do you think that guy should pay? Well, I actually don't know the answer to this, but it's, I'm so hard to please. I was talking about this example the other day where I'm on an airplane. And if a, if a guy gets up to help me, like puts my

bags up, I'm literally like, I can do it myself. Like, I don't, I don't say that out loud, but in my brain, I'm like, I can do it. And if they don't, I'm like, a chivaler is dead. Get out of your seat, you asshole. Like, I'm so hard to please. So I don't know where that is. I feel that same way with paying the bill. I'm like, I don't, you know, I want to be like, no, I can pay for it. But then if they didn't, I'd be like, oh, embarrassing. Like, you know, I don't know. I can feed myself. It is. I know. I think it's good to, like, laugh about it and to recognize it, right? That, you know, the ideal that we have of ourselves and our relationships and our gender dynamics are different from the way that we, you know, maybe feel currently because we are raised in a patriarchy, right?

Like, I mean, I think it's the same thing with women and, like, dieting, like, or getting Botox, right? It's like I would love to not be, you know, brainwashed by our society's, you know, sort of pressures and expectations to look a certain way. And I, but I, you know, do participate in, in these rituals. And is it really just because I want to do it for me? Probably not. Right. I think we have to also be like, give ourselves some slack.

And, you know, the change is hard. Like, it doesn't happen overnight. And I think, you know, I think we have to have empathy for. our for each other um but also for ourselves and in you know slowly getting there yes but i'm the same i i i'm i'm i'm not like yeah i'm i'm i'm so difficult i'm i confuse myself all the time like but it's we are you know we're all conditioned to to just even the way we're raised i think at this point in life we know how much of an impact our parents had on us growing up and men you know they grow up being told that boys don't cry. They grow up being told that dolls are for girls and hide your feelings

and you're the breadwinner and your masculinity must constantly be proven and we're taught to stay quiet and all these things, which I now see, you know, there is a shift happening. There really is. But I just feel like it's so fascinating to be self-aware and know, like, know that that's what has happened and wanting to make a change. And just having patience with it, I guess. Like you said, it doesn't happen overnight and having the patience to say like, okay, we have, I actually asked this in another interview. It was a sex expert. And I, I wondered back into like even caveman days of our men wired and programmed that way to, you know, breadwin, go out, get must feed family, provide women, stay here, do this. Like, is that like, is that like,

ingrained or do you think that's taught? I mean, I think so many things. I think that first of all, we, and it's a really great question. I think that we analyze cavemen eras and cavewoman eras in a way that reflects current biases, right? Or our current structures in society. So even this idea that like men are the ones that go out, women were actually the biggest, in terms of just proportionally, in terms of how many calories they were, you know, providing for their tribes. Women were actually the ones that, with, again, you know, picking fruit. And, I mean, yes, sometimes there would be like an elephant that they could eat or whatever the animal was out there.

But most of the time, right, like 80% of their calories were actually being provided by women. So even, you know, I think that we, yeah, sometimes, and again, a lot of this is because a lot of the people who are studying evolutionary theory and who are anthropologists and who are doing a lot of this research are white men. And so it reflects their own sort of biases, right? Even this like lone wolf, I talk about it in the book a bit, but, you know, this whole lone wolf, you know, sort of idea, right, is not even accurate. Like wolves, wolf packs are led by a male wolf and a female wolf. There's two. And it's like, it's not one dude at the front, right and it's not um anyway and then there's monkeys and like people tend to latch on to these

theories about us being naturally patriarchal because chimpanzees are uh patriarchal but we actually share the same amount of DNA with bonobos as we do with chimpanzees and bonobos are completely matriarchal so women run the show and bonobos have actually eradicated violence against female bonobos um because of female uh alliances and so there's There's so much cool stuff about bonobos and just ways for honestly us as humans to inspire ourselves from them. So, yes, like I would say, of course, there's biology and hormones and all of those things. But very often the way that we're interpreting those results is actually, you know, reflects our social programming. I'm even thinking about how we on social media, like even how I could do better with gender norms.

Like, you know, like the, what do we do on social media that I think, that people could maybe just be more aware of that we're like actually feeding into it like what are certain examples i'm trying to think of something like i can't think of an example right now but something that we do that we might not even realize that we're doing i mean i in general we still pay more attention to men's voices um we we sort of take men more seriously i mean there's so much i mean there was a piece of research i think this is a few years old but like even on stories about reproductive rights like men were more likely to be quoted like there's just like radical crazy stuff out there that that just sort of reflects our biases i think that there's still a lot of

harassment i mean women online being a woman being a woman of color is even worse um right uh LGBTQ right like all of these identities intersect to um create a lot more more uh sort of backlash right and and sort of intimidation of women who use their voices online i mean And my comments are constantly filled with reply guys who are, or threats and people building like crazy antilist planes. Like, there's some wild stuff out there. I can't imagine. And I'm not even, yeah, the worst.

And so, yeah, there's a lot of silent things of women. And so I think when men really amplify the voices of women online, when white people, I've amplified the voices of, you know, black women. online, I think that those things really make a difference. Yeah, that's actually really great advice. In your, I don't know if you're single or dating, but in your dating life, like, do you find it challenging because you are so knowledgeable about what, what, you know, like, is it like hard for you to find out there that could, yeah, okay.

Yeah, I would, I would think that's challenging because I feel like it's rough out there anyways, but like, you know. It's just you've got to be, like, so aware of topics of masculinity and it either could hurt you or help you, I guess. It probably helps, too. What's your take on dating? Because I think it's become insane. Like, I'm legitimately worried for us as a species. And obviously, there's a lot of data to support this, but, like, half of young men don't even want to be in a real, like, prefer to be single, aren't even dating or, like, looking to.

date at all. One in four women under the age of 35 hasn't had sex in the last year. Like there's like really concerning, you know, sort of trends going on. And I'm, I'm experiencing it just firsthand. I'm out in the field. And I'm just like, I find that men and women are extremely annoyed with each other and like and don't have. It's almost like there's all this accumulated resentment. And truly, I think on both sides, I think men feel like they can't win or that the expectations are too high. And women, I think, are finding that they're not able to find anyone to meet their, you know, to really meet the standards that they hold. And so it's just causing a lot of like situationships and just like ghosting and I guess all the things that already existed.

but I feel like are on the rise right now. And I certainly like, I've had, okay, so I've had instances where, like, I'll meet someone. This happened to me like last summer. My friend's like, oh, hey, he's like, oh, he's my friend at all. And I'm like, hey, he's like, and I'm like, oh, you kind of look familiar. He's like, yeah, we matched on this dating app. And I was like, oh. And he was like, yeah.

But then when I saw like the title of your book, I unmatched you. He said that to you? Ew, you're like, I would have unmatched two to you, bro. That's the thing. I mean, first of all, he was not hot enough for, like, to be that much of a dick. And second of all, yeah, I think the first thing I think I said was like, glad you unmasad, glad you never, you know, talk to me because you wouldn't have, like, your skin is way too much to date me.

Like, yeah, yeah, it's a, it's a gift. And it is. It truly is, though. Like, I don't ever, there's no part of me that ever wants to compromise, you know, my, my, my voice in any kind of way. And in a way, it kind of creates this, you know, barometer because it means that, you know, I'm kind of weeding a lot of guys who otherwise would not be a good fit out of the way, like sort of right away. So, but I'm sure, yeah, yeah, what about you? How's your what's what are you seeing out there? I honestly going into any relationship that I'm going to take seriously.

I honestly want to date somebody for a full year like casually before I'm like I know who you are and I'm I'm I trust you like I want to date somebody for a full year and date around even if I see other people in that same year just until I really feel safe and seen and heard and in love in a year like I want to still I don't want to be tricked. I'm very scared. I love this because I was I'm so I'm working on a book proposal whatever probably not supposed to talk about it but like I'm very interested in gaslighting and because I was I went through a very similar experience and it was I'm recovered but like I don't think I told like it it's I think it takes years to really recover from being in a relationship

where there's so much deception and manipulation and it and it makes you really not trust like trust yourself after that and and that part i think is really scary but it's important to remember that like so i met this guy like at a wedding like recently sort of after i was going through coming out of that relationship and i was like what makes someone like fall for like a gaslighter or like fall like because at that point i was just like i'm an idiot like like i'm just like like it's my fault right and he was like he was like it's something called truth by it apparently, which is like because you tell the truth, you assume that everyone else tells the truth, which is like a beautiful quality to have.

But right, isn't that? Like, it made me so emotional when he said that to me. And I think that it's important to, you know, sort of realize that very often when people do that, they're doing it because you're a good. Like, it's happening because you're a good person, like, right? And people who aren't kind or generous or empathetic or whatever wouldn't have stuck around, but you did because you believed in the best version of that person, you know, even though they couldn't meet that potential.

I love that you have a new podcast on the armchair expert umbrella called Sinkt because, first all, I love Monica. I love her so much. And that's obviously your co-host. And it's a podcast where you get to talk about different topics, but you also get to take listener. Like I would call in every day if I could to ask you questions. stuff. You're great. I want to ask you questions. Oh my gosh. Well, we're fast friends now

Canadians, so you can ask me anything. But I love that you can have listeners call in. And I just like sometimes I thought of doing that. Like, oh, people should call in and I can answer their questions. But I actually need so much time and space to think about an answer where I feel like you are so good at like right away being able to have an answer. Like, is that something it just really comes naturally to you. I don't know. I just feel like you give great advice. Thanks.

Oh my God. It's so funny because Monica, you know, if I had things, we're doing things my way, I would be taking weeks to think about, you know, every question. And she does it where we don't see them. Like we're literally when we're reading them out loud to you, it's the first time we're reading them. So credit to her, though, for, you know, wanting to do it that way. I think it does kind of make it more conversational, right?

like and and like we're just hanging out and you're telling your friend you know for the first time something and then they get to sort of react to it but um but i mean i mean but i appreciate it i i don't think i'm i don't think i give good advice i think i i think i'm you know probably from years of being a journalist like i think i'm good at like knowing well being a good journalist basically is being a good listener obviously is like very very important but knowing what's not being said in what's being said is really really big and that is something that i think if you can do more of that with your friends and with your family or just with conversation it makes you i think uh yeah sort of like again i'm not calling myself a superior communicator in any way but

But I think that it allows for more in-depth conversations and sort of a deeper connection because I think it's so special to get to be mirrored by someone else and for someone else to see those little, to notice those little gaps and to ask you more questions about them. Yeah, that's true. And so, yeah, I love, but I love doing it. I think it's, I mean, I love Monica and Dax, and it's such a fun show to do. And I'm glad that it's helpful to people.

I mean, I'm honestly shocked anyone's taking our advice. Like, that's always our kind of joke. Like, we're just like figuring it out. Very unlicensed advice. But it's real and it's honest. And you're right. Because of your background and everything that you know and everything that you're passionate about, you are able to ask the right questions that people need to ask themselves.

I think that's part of giving really great advice. And before I take, I'm like literally could talk to you for the next five hours. But lastly, it was your birthday this past week, wasn't it? Yes, it was. Amazing. A happy birthday. I know you posted on social media about aging and millennial imposter syndrome. And I just found that so interesting because I think a lot of people can relate to the thought of aging, how it can be scary.

I always try and like remind myself that aging, I get so scared for so many reasons. One, I'm like terrified of death. I'm scared of the people around me dying. I'm terrified of looking old. I'm like, you know, all of the same things, but then I just always tell myself the alternative is scarier. Dying is like not aging is obviously the alternative and that's scarier. But it's, you know, we all try to like deny that aging happens. And I, you know, there's beautiful parts of that and, you know, not so beautiful parts of that. But I saw, you were talking about coming up to your 40s,

you just turned 37. I'm 38. But you were mentioning how your 30s were better than your 20s and you believe that your 40s will be better than your 30s. Just before I let you go, I just want to know your insight on this and the millennial imposter syndrome because all I've heard ever is how great 40s are, and yet I fear them because it means I'm getting older. Yeah, it's really funny because the day before my birthday, if we were talking the day before my birthday, I would not, I was freaking out, kind of. Like, I don't know why 37 was this difficult number for me.

Yeah. And particularly with the life circumstances that I'm in, right? Like when I was a kid, when I imagined 37, I did not imagine me at all. And I still like, there's a wild discrepancy. When I think about my parents at 37 and I think about me, there's a wild discrepancy. It makes no sense. And so really recognizing that, actually instead of thinking that I can change those circumstances by like working harder or going on more dates or dating more losers and lowering my

standards like you know what i mean like you know just having a baby with whoever because i just want a baby like that's not helpful right yeah what's really helpful is being in like radical acceptance of what is and that what is is different from what was and thank god like like they you know i wrote this call about a millennial imposter syndrome because it was helpful for me to realize that i wasn't also alone right like it's not a personal failure if our entire entire generation feels the same way you know it's like it's it's the things that were possible for our parents uh for many of us are not possible and we know we just happen to be alive at this wild moment in time we're in the part like there's going to be so many movies about this like our lives right now there's going to be

so many or whatever podcasts are in 20 years from now like there's going to be documentaries there's going to be so much about all of the things that we, you know, went through and being really compassionate with ourselves rather than thinking that somehow we should have been the exception, you know, and that we, I don't know, again, like have like godlike, you know, abilities to sort of change major life events that have happened. It is not. And so what I really try and do is like redefine what success looks like for me and be not just an acceptance, but like, celebrate the fact that it's different from what it was for my parents or from what it is from you right um in so many ways i'm you know not where i thought i would be in a sort of negative

way i guess where it's like oh i thought i would have kids and own a home but there's so many other things that i couldn't have imagined my wildest dreams that have happened that i wouldn't want to change for the world and so i try and realize when i'm being like in that scarcity mindset when i'm just thinking about the things that I don't that I wish you know thought I would have and that I don't have instead of realizing there's so many things that I thought I would never get that I already have now and so those are the big ones and then like your thing a little bit about dating like I know I'm going to meet the person I know I'm going to have the whole thing and like the thing when I'm going to look back on this moment right now I'm just going to wish that I had more fun

while I was like you know in that moment right and so and that's how I feel about everything in my life. Like even when I think about my, you know, 20s, there's so many things I was upset about and that I, you know, thought I needed to achieve that I hadn't achieved. And like, when I look back, I'm like, that was so fun. Like, that was so amazing. So trying to have that mindset. Yeah. I don't know why it's so challenging to have that mindset because if I really, if I really think about what success means to me, it is breaking the cycle. It is breaking the cycle of like, you know what, I could have been, I've been engaged twice and I chose to get out of those relationships because I knew it wasn't right. And I, the success, that could look like a

failure to people, but I really think of it as like, success to me is breaking the cycle of doing what you think you should, but actually doing what makes you happy and, and not tuning out the noise because it's always going to affect you, but being able to hear it and move through it. And I keep thinking about, I keep thinking about situations or this is going to sound really harsh, but people or situations or thoughts or the noise, I keep trying to think of it as roadkill, where I just want to swerve and move on. It's dead to me. It's there and we'll acknowledge it, but just like swerve and move on. And that to me, I'm that success. I love that. Yeah, you don't have to give them that much importance to those thoughts, right? It's right.

And you're in charge of your life and in charge of what you want to pay attention to. And so, yeah, I love that. I love that. And you're amazing. I mean, it's incredible. All the things that you've done and are doing. Thank you. And I already feel so inspired.

I love the rule of, like, dating casually for a year before even making a decision about someone. I love that for you. Yeah, I'm going to carry that to you. Yeah. I'm just, I've literally, I'm talking to somebody right now who's. 40 and I'm like, how do you meet people if you're not on the app? Sorry to interject, but like, no, just mutual friends. Okay. Mutual friends, I mean social media, which basically is like a dating app, you know, it can be. But I'm just like, I'm all for a divorce say who's just been

some life experience, who's done therapy and just like, I just, it wants to do good in the world. Like that's kind of just nothing crazy. I just, I want to be like, you know, obviously attractive. to them. I want them to be doing good things in the world. And I want them to have seen some shit. Yeah. I think that's great. I love a divorced dad for you. I like love that. I love that. I agree. I was with a divorce dad. It was the best relationship of like my life. They're like and and yeah, divorce will like force you to deal with some shit. And so I, I welcome divorce men. Absolutely. Yeah. I think it's usually a better sign. And now after this podcast, I am now my eyes and ears and everything is peeled because I want to find you like a incredible human that I can

introduce you to. I'm a matchmaker. I'm truly a matchmaker. I've like introduced people who are now married and I'm like, I wish I can do this for myself. Yes. Wow. I love that. I love people like you and like truly it means like I it's such a talent. It's such a rare skill actually. I actually think I'm good at it. It is. Yeah. Okay. Where do you live so I can do it for you too. Okay. So I live in Nashville. Okay. Okay. Yes. I'll think about that. I'm less connected in Nashville, but now I'm going to start looking through thing. Well, it feels like everybody and their dog are moving to Nashville. I obviously did too. So we'll keep our eyes and ears out for each other. But I just truly enjoyed every second of talking to you. I think you're just such a wonderful human and doing really

wonderful things in the world. And I'm really grateful for your time today. And I will, I'm going to resend you my message, just so you, the words of affirmation are in your DM. I want it. Thank you, Caitlin. You're the best. This is so wonderful. You're such a great interviewer. And it's so fun to talk to. From a journalist that I look up to. Wow. Thank you so much. And tell everybody where they can get your book and find you on social media and your podcast and everything. Yes. So I'm feminist, fabulous. One word on Instagram, a list like on TikTok and all the things. My book is called The Love of Men and my sub-sacac is called airplane mode you want to subscribe um my podcast is called synced um if you follow the armchair

expert umbrella you'll get it in your feed every wednesday and then i also have another podcast called man enough um which uh you can listen to wherever you get your podcast awesome thank you so much and i'll be seeing you in the dms real soon yes i can't wait i can't wait thank you kately i'm kately bristow i'll see you next tuesday See you're next to be like. Pluto TV has over 300 channels and thousands of TV shows and movies for whatever mood you're in. Just open the app and something good will already be playing because it's curated by people who love. TV as much as you do. So if you're in the mood for comedy, there's eight