Off The Vine with Kaitlyn Bristowe - Michelle 'Mace' Curran | Only the 2nd Woman Ever to Fly Lead Solo for the Thunderbirds!

Episode Date: September 2, 2025

#872. From flying fighter jets to inspiring audiences worldwide, Michelle “MACE” Curran’s story soars above and beyond. Once a shy small-town kid battling social anxiety, she went on to become the Lead Solo Pilot for the U.S. Air Force Thunderbirds—one of the most elite positions in aviation.In this episode, Mace shares what it really takes to become a fighter pilot, the near-catastrophic flight that earned her the call sign “Mace,” and the reality of often being the only woman in the room. She and Kaitlyn dive into her new book The Flipside: How to Invert Your Perspective and Turn Fear into Your Superpower, unpacking the tools she uses to turn fear into confidence and why boldness is built—not born.From high-G turns in the cockpit to captivating keynote stages, Mace proves that bravery isn’t about being fearless—it’s about showing up anyway.If you’re LOVING this podcast, please follow and leave a rating and review below! PLUS, FOLLOW OUR PODCAST INSTAGRAM HERE!Thank you to our Sponsors! Check out these deals!Progressive: Visit Progressive.com to see if you could save on car insurance.Better Help: Off the vine listeners get 10% off their first month at betterhelp.com/vineWayfair: Cozify your space with Wayfair’s curated collection of easy, affordable fall updates. That’s WAYFAIR.com. Wayfair. Every style. Every home.Lady World: Come Join me for a fun weekend! Get your tickets now at LadyWorld.COEPISODE HIGHLIGHTS: (4:03)– The Moment She Knew She Wanted to Fly Fighter Jets(24:00) – The Story Behind the Call Sign “Mace”(29:30) – Becoming Only The 2nd Woman as Lead Solo Pilot(51:35) – How Mace Met Her Husband on Bumble(58:25) – Turning Fear Into a SuperpowerSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Okay, listen up if you love a good slow burn romance, and let's be real, who doesn't? You need to check out the new Audible Original of Pride and Prejudice. It's an intimate performance that literally makes you feel like you're right there swooning with Lizzie Bennett and Mr. Darcy. Marisa Abella as Elizabeth and Harris Dickinson as Darcy, I'm obsessed. So whether it is your first time with Jane Austen or your 50th, this version is such a fresh, fun listen. go to audible.ca slash jane austin to dive in this episode of off the vine is brought to you by progressive visit progressive.com to see if you could save on car insurance better help off the vine listeners

you're going to get 10% off your first month at better help help.com slash vine wayfair cozify your space with wayfarer's curated collection of easy affordable fall updates that's W-A-Y-F-A-I-R.com. Wayfair, every style, every home. And Lady World, come join me for a really fun weekend. I might even be performing a couple songs. So get your tickets now at ladyworld.co. You're listening to Off the Vine with Caitlin Bristow. Hey everybody, welcome to Off the Vine. I'm your host, Caitlin Bristow. And today we have a total badass on the podcast. She is a true trail. blazer. Her name is Michelle Mace Curran. We'll find out why we call her Mace in this podcast.

She has shattered barriers as a combat fighter pilot and became the only second woman in history to fly as a lead solo pilot for the U.S. Air Force, the Thunderbirds. It was so cool hearing all her stories and now she is completely pivoted from a military career to a best-selling author, a motivational keynote speaker, LinkedIn, top voice, an advocate for helping women redefine fear and embrace boldness and own their power. So as soon as I saw that she was doing that and had a cool story, I was like, I know my vinoes are going to take a lot away from this conversation. And it's just a good listen. So I hope you enjoy my conversation with nice.

I have so many questions. I don't even know how I'm going to get through all of them. Perfect. Because I have like eight pages of notes of things to ask you because it's fascinating and impressive and all of the things. So yeah, I did a lot of homework on you. Oh, uh-oh. Nothing bad. If you Google me, if you Google you, it's like, whoa, impressive. Cool. If you Google me, it's like, a lot of weird stories happening there. I'm serious. Um, okay, so I always love knowing people's origin story and like, as a little kid, did you dream about doing what you're,

what you did? Like, were you like, this is what I was born to do? No, not at all. Like, how did the dream of becoming a fighter pilot first take place? Yeah. So I was a very shy, I was a super shy introverted kid, but I was also like type A as far as really driven to perform. Yeah. So I was a straight A student. I always wanted to do the best at things. I had this adventurous side. Like I loved playing outside and I loved roller coasters and climbing things and jumping off of things.

And I was, you know, getting good grades. But I had like social anxiety, didn't like to get in front of people, didn't like to speak up in class. Yeah. So I get to high school. and at that time I wanted to be an FBI agent. Oh. I swear it's because I love the X-Files. Oh, yeah.

You know, the most accurate representation of what FBI agents do. Yeah, I used to want to, this is like not even that long ago, but from watching criminal minds. Yeah. I'm like obsessed with criminal minds. And you're like, that's totally not accurate, but it looks like a great career. Like Grace Anatomy. All the nurses are like, no, that's, no, bitch, that's not how it works. Yeah, okay.

The doctors do not look like that. No. Or the lighting. Like I was in the hospital. other day for a fibroid removal. And I was like, it's depressing in here. This doesn't feel like gray's anatomy. Yeah, this is not great for my skin color. Yeah, no, no, no, yellow lighting. Okay. So I'm in high school and I need a way to pay for college. Essentially, my parents are like, hey, you're a straight A student. Let's cash that in. Right. Like all these years of hard work.

So I looked at scholarship opportunities. Long story short, Air Force ROTC rose to the top. It seemed like a way to get out of the small town I grew up in in like central Wisconsin, a town of 4,000 people, farming community. I was like, this is not my life. I'm not staying here. Which some people do like, like to stay in their comfort zone, but sounds like as a child, you were like adventurous. Absolutely.

I wanted to travel all over the world. I wanted a challenge. And so therefore seemed like a good fit. But my plan was to go be a criminal justice major, set myself up for the FBI, do four years on active duty to pay back my scholarship. And then I'm like, great, I'll have military experience on my resume too. Now the FBI will surely want to hire me. Right.

I'm like 17 years old. I'm like, this sounds great. So I get an ROTC scholarship. 17. I was like picking my nose at 17 and be like, I hope I graduate. Yeah. I'm probably doing both of those things. So I go off to college.

The Air Force pays for it. I commission as an officer the same day I graduate, but partway through college we visit an Air Force base down in Florida, Tyndale Air Force Base. It's like on the Gulf. And while I'm there, I get to see two fighter jets take off from the side of the runway, close up, full after burner, like in your face. jet noise and I'm just like, how do I go do that? Forget the FBI. Oh my gosh. That was it. That was the

moment. I just remember like having this physiological reaction of excitement, goosebumps, and just being like, I'm already in Air Force ROTC. Right. I'm already on the path. All I have to do is have the courage to put my name in the hat. Right. When they ask who wants to compete to be a pilot. And you have that courage. And I did and I got a pilot slot and went off to pilot training from there. And what were people's reaction to that? Like your family and friends were like, she would. Or was it like, are you sure? My parents have I was just been like, yep, that seems on brand.

Really? Go do your thing. I think my mom was, I was very encouraging, but I think it made her nervous as it most moms. Like, oh, my kid's about to do this very dangerous job. Yeah. I think my dad was just like, hell yeah, this is awesome. Really?

That's crazy. Yeah. From all of my close support network, I think was just excited. Yeah. And they're like, if you say you're going to do it, we have no doubt you're going to do it. The odds of becoming a fighter pilot were definitely not in my favor. And because I had that moment of inspiration that was from fighter jets specifically. And I loved roller coasters and I just loved this thrill seeking.

I didn't want to be just an Air Force pilot. I wanted to be a fighter pilot. Why were the odds against you? So for a class of 25 when I went through the Air Force's undergraduate pilot training, it's what it's called, that everyone comes through initially. And then you split into like different tracks for different types of aircraft. 25 students, we had two spots for fighter aircraft available. Whoa. And we didn't, we didn't know how many we had, but we knew historically classes were getting like

one to three fighter jets. So you're competing against 25 people to be at the top of your class. And you got it. And I got it, which is still kind of crazy to me. But here we are. What age were you at this point? Yeah. So I mean, I graduate college.

I'm like 22 years old. go into pilot training and I graduate, I think I'm like around 24 at the time. And then I go to learn to fly the F-16, which is a fighter jet. What was that first solo flight like? Surreal, but also very stressful. So I feel like you don't have the time to be like, right? That's kind of what it's like where you land and you're like, I don't remember what just happened. Right. You don't have the time to be up there and be like, I can't believe I'm doing this. This is this huge milestone because you're just like, so much going on. What is my altitude? What is my airspeed? Who do I need to talk to on the radio, oh, what's next?

And so you're just very task-oriented. Yeah. After you land. I would fail miserably. It's a quite, I didn't come in day one and fly a fighter jet. Of course. Yeah. What kind of process was that like to get there?

Yeah. DA 20 for anyone that's listening that likes airplanes and might know the different types. It's very small. Like propeller flies 80 knots. You sit next to your instructor and our Velcro on our flight suits was like stuck together because it's like some big dude instructor and me and you're like, we're very close. proximity. But that was like the Toyota Corolla, right? Like this is like learning to drive. Yeah. And then we moved up to an airplane that could be aerobatic and go upside down and

pull six Gs, which is six times the force of gravity. That was a steep learning curve jump. But the Air Force's training program is built to take someone with no flight experience to graduation. So they take that into account. It's just little by little increases. I was like 22, I think, did this, but I was like Googling what to do for a date on like with the guy I was dating. I was like, what could I give him for his birthday for like a fun date? And it was like go up in one of those little propeller. And so we went and we got to like fly around Vancouver in this tiny little propeller plane. And then he kind of like let me do the like driving. Do that we call it flying? Flying. Yeah, driving works. What do you call it flying? And we did this thing where it's like you

hold a pencil and then the plane dropped and the pencil floated zero gs yeah zero gs yeah yeah so like we're like the same pretty much basically yeah yeah yeah we did the same thing that's crazy is there misconceptions about that people have about what it takes to become a fighter pilot oh i mean so many top gun is such a like cultural phenomenon that the general public has based their entire concept of what fighter pilots are personality wise job wise all the things on those movies yeah Which is some pros, some cons. Right. And people generally know it's competitive.

Yeah. But I don't think people quite realize just, it's about a three-year process of just like grinding nonstop through these formal training programs. Every flight you do is graded. Every simulator you do is graded. You're taking academic tests. It's like going to med school or something. It's just super hands-on training, really intense before you even get to go to your first operational unit. Yeah.

And then you get to your first operational unit. and you're like, I did it. I did the thing. I have arrived and you get there and you're like, oh, I know nothing. Really? That was the tip of the iceberg crap. Like, it's going to take years to be good at this. Oh, my gosh.

So, like, how do you prepare mentally for something like that high stakes? There's a couple things that I was told as a brand new student. And one was that, like, you have to learn to compartmentalize airborne. Every flight, there's going to be things that go wrong. They could be super minor things. Well, everyone that's listening. And it's like, I'm never flying commercial again. I know.

It's a thing. I mean, like, you'll make a minor air like you're 10 knots off airspeed. Stuff that is inconsequential. Okay. But when you're being graded and you're a student and you're trying to perform at this high level, you will never have a flawless flight, right? Like there's hours little things where you're like, oh, I should have done that better. I should have turned earlier.

I was laid on that radio call, whatever it is. And if you let that get in your head, it just snowballs. Right. Because there's no point during the flight in that environment where you have time to just chill and reminisce about how you just mess something up. Right. And if you're thinking about something you just messed up, you're messing something else up that you should be doing in that moment.

So compartmentalizing, does that help you do that in real life too then? 100%. That's great. That's a great skill. I think it could be unhealthy in some regard. Actually, that's true. I put things in a box and I don't take them out mentally for years. And I'm like, ooh, that's traumatic.

Yeah. Right. So I think there's like two sides to it. And it's like somewhere in the middle is good where you can compartmentalize for a short amount of time when you need to perform. Yeah. versus like never dealing with it yeah and we had a very formal process like we are still airborne we're still executing like we got to set that aside we will talk through after we land when we

go debrief and so that kind of gives you this routine of like when you're on to perform you're on yeah and the show will go forward I was just thinking about like you on dancing with a start like surely you had nerves oh I was shit in my pants every time right yeah but you probably won like the music starts in you execute execute because you're very focused on the next thing you need to do. Yes. And if you let the nerves be the focus, you would just be messing up left and right. Yes. That's like I saw someone do it. I think her name was Sky Jackson. She like messed up one step and it just snowballed from there and she couldn't keep it up because where I think I had the training from growing up dancing that if you screw up,

you pretend you didn't and you just keep going. For sure. Yeah. So that like really helped me. But that's that makes a lot of sense. Yeah. So that mentality just I think it serves me well now. Like if I get on a keynote stage and I'm in front of this massive audience and I skip an entire paragraph because my brain just transitions to the next thing. And then I realize it, I have this like very quick mental timeline of like, oh, I realize I just missed that. They have no idea. Right. They have no idea. That's the thing I was trying to remember too is they have no idea. With keynote speaking, I feel like could you or would you ever be like, I fuck that up. I'm going to rewind a little bit. Because I feel like people love the honesty.

They do. And that's what I tell a lot of people who will come to me and be like, it looks like you're crushing it in keynote speaking. I'm so scared, but I want to do that. I'm like, honestly, the worst thing that can happen on stage is you have the brain go blank deer in the headlights, which is every speaker's nightmare. If you just stand up there, like, wide-eyed and like the whole entire audience, like, here's you swallow as you're just like, oh, no, it's going to be awkward. But if you're just like, you know how you lose your train of thought? Sometimes that just happened. Give me a second. Then they're with you and they're like, oh, I get that. I'm glad that. I'm glad that's. that's not me. I do that all the time with podcasting, but the good news is we can just edit it. But I do it all the time. I'm like, what was I just saying? Totally. And that's like a normal human thing. And I think if anything, as long as you can come back from it, like even if it takes you 30 seconds or whatever. Yeah. They're like, oh, she's so relatable. Exactly. I feel like it's so, nobody wants perfection anymore. And I just feel like when people mess up and own it, it's so, it's not only relatable, but it's like, it makes me feel, oh, I don't know see this i'm doing it right now but i feel like the the vulnerability of admitting like i just screwed up

or something creates connection in that room where now everyone feels like we're on the same level we're we're all we're all the same people and um i feel like it makes them listen more too yeah because i think we're speaking so much of it the most important thing is the connection with the audience yeah yes and like you could say the same exact thing in two different scenarios but in one the audience sees themselves in you they're relatable you're vulnerable they have the connection piece and in the other they don't and the impact's completely different this episode of off the vine is brought to you by progressive insurance now you know what feels real good saving money on things that you have to pay for anyways like car insurance so when you switch to progressive you can literally save hundreds and

honestly who would be mad at that people might even start calling you financially responsible which is one of the best compliments in my eyes progressive makes it easy with discounts for paying in full owning a home and more and when something does come up their customer service is actually there to help so you know your money is doing the most for you so if you're sitting there wondering if you could save why don't you just go check it out go to progressive dot com and see progressive casualty insurance company and affiliates potential savings will vary not available in all states or situations this episode of off the vine is brought to you by better help now who do you usually go to when you're dealing with life problems maybe the group chat your mom maybe you overshund share with a complete stranger at the nail salon been there and you know what sometimes that does work but the difference with talking to a therapist is that they're actually trained to help you like clinically trained and licensed not just your bestie giving questionable advice while sipping wine even though that is so much fun better help has been around for over 10 years helping people

find the right therapist match and you guys they've got a 4.9 rating out of 1.7 million client session reviews. So that alone pretty much speaks for itself. They've also got over 30,000 licensed therapists, so no matter what you're going through, you can find someone who gets it. It's all online. It's super flexible so you can pause whenever you need to and your therapist, if it isn't the right fit, you can just switch at any time, no extra cost. And as the largest online therapy provider in the world, BetterHelp gives you access to mental health professionals with a wide variety of expertise. So find the one with BetterHelp. Our listeners, you're going to get 10% off your first month at betterhelp.com slash vine.

That's betterhelp.com slash vine. I have to ask about Mace. Oh, yes. Because I thought that was your real name. I mean, that would have been cool. My parents weren't that creative. I was like, she was born to do that. Like, that's like such a name for like doing fighter jets.

I'm like, Mace. But I obviously have to ask about it. It sounds like, whew. I've heard there's always a story behind people's names, and sometimes it's not what you'd expect. So where did Mace come from? Yeah. So fighter pilot call signs in general. Again, Top Gun has failed us on this front.

Yeah. Like we have all these cool names, but they never tell you why they're called what they are called. Right. So you don't get to pick your call sign. It is given to you generally based on something dumb. You did it as a young pilot. It's, I wouldn't call it hazing. It's a right of passage to get your call sign.

Yeah. Yeah. So no matter how, I mean, I think Mace sounds like a cool call sign. Yeah. Most people think I pepper sprayed some guy in a bar. That's what I thought. Which I'm kind of hoping I get myself in that situation just to bring it full circle. Yeah.

So far. You should just make that happen. Right? Do you carry around Mace? I know. Can we get some over here? Well, how's it's it supposed to happen if you're not carrying it? I know, right?

I have some downstairs. You can take it. I don't think TSA lets me go through the airport with it. But I'm sure if it's under three ounces. Honestly, they let a lot of things go. They shouldn't. So I could probably sneak that right through next to my moisturizer. Oh, wait.

Before Mace. Are you like, no. to see more things with travel and air and things happening with airplanes or are we just seen it more so there's a massive spotlight on it right now because there have been some big mishaps right like super sad scenarios loss of life and that happens so so rarely and since like the one really big one here happened in the u.s and dc now the media is like highlighting any aircraft why do they do that to us because it's sadationalism yeah because it's like clickable I think so because like the worst the headline and the more people like are like, oh my gosh,

I can't believe that happened. The more clicks and views and everything. I hate it. And I hate that they do that. I don't think the safety standards have changed. Yeah. I think it's great that we're looking at it and air traffic control and the FAA and all of that is being evaluated like we probably need more people.

People are burned out. But I don't think that aircraft are suddenly inherently unsafe. Okay. And everyone I know that flies for the airlines, they're so good at what they do. And air traffic controllers are so good at what they do. Their job is so stressful. The most stressful. Yeah.

Like that's a lot of pressure. Yeah. Like, don't run these things together. Yeah. So I think it's just got the spotlight on it. I don't think people should be any more nervous or scared to fly than they were before. Okay.

That's so comforting. You should be afraid to drive on the interstate. Yeah, I am. I'm scared, but I'm scared of like so many things. Okay. So you never sprayed somebody with Mace. Go on. Okay.

So we'll table that. I'll let you know if I do. We can do a follow up. Please let me know. Yeah. So it's a very pilot jargon heavy story. But to give you the long story short, I get to my first operational squadron in Japan. I am very much in the thick of, oh, I just did the thing I have arrived to the, oh, shit, moment of, I know nothing.

This is way harder than I thought. What am I doing here? So my second flight in country is practice dog fighting. So everyone generally knows what that is from, again, the movies. So one aircraft versus another. It's me and one. I'm by myself, solo aircraft, or solo pilot in the aircraft, and my instructor in the other. And my whole goal for the day is to maneuver to get behind his aircraft and shoot him with a gun,

which is saved up. There's not rub bullets in it. Don't worry. So that's like the training scenario. So I had learned that in the F-16, a lot happens very quickly. I need to do things to take decisions off my plate as much as I can. And so in training, I had just pushed the throttle all the way up, lit the afterburn, So that was like the flames coming out, the back.

The jet is going extremely fast, accelerating very quickly. And now I can focus on all of the other things. So I was like, cool. That's what I did in training. I'm going to do that here. And now I can worry about everything else. So I do that. A few seconds later, I roll and I start pulling back on the stick.

I experience nine Gs, which to explain to people, nine times the force of gravity. So however much you weigh, multiply it by nine, that is what you feel like. That is the force you are under. I always use 100 pounds as an example. I don't weigh 100 pounds, but, you know, jokes about math in public and not embarrassing ourselves. So 100 pound person feels like they weigh, you know, almost 1,000 pounds. Oh, my gosh.

For how long? Well, this is where I get myself into trouble. Normally it be, I don't know, 5, 10 seconds, which still feels like a lifetime. And with Gs like that, they're going from your head towards your feet. And they're so much stronger than your heart. Yeah. So the blood gets forced out of your head. And so you can pass out.

I was going to say. Yeah, G-induced loss of consciousness. G-lock is what we call it. So that is very bad when you are the one flying the airplane if you're sleeping and not flying the airplane. So it's a serious threat. And so we do, we wear a special suit. We like to do this G-strain thing where we flex our muscles all to help push that blood back up. So I'm doing that.

I'm pulling nine Gs. And I know what should happen is a few seconds of that, the jet will start to slow down just because you're losing energy and as you're turning. And I'll be able to gun mine structure. celebrate all the things. Right. So I'm just pulling and pulling and I'm G-straining and I'm not getting to the point where I can point at him, which you have to be pointing at him to shoot the gun. It can't like turn corners.

Right. I'm like, what is happening? Why is this so hard? And I start to get gray out. And then I start to get blackout and tunnel vision. And within a few seconds, I am completely, complete light loss is what we call it. That's so terrifying. Like you're like, and in your head are you going, this is it for me.

nine. In my head, I'm so young and dumb. This is my priorities. I'm like, oh, I am right on the verge of a G-lock, but I can fight through this. I need to win this fight and achieve the mission because I'm here. I need to prove myself. I need to prove that I deserve to be here. And that is more important than my own physical safety in this moment, the dumbest thing ever. Like with hindsight, just a massive misprioritization. Right. But again, I'm trying to prove myself in such a high-performance environment and I felt like the only way to do that was to like achieve the things that were set out to do on the mission at whatever cost that came with. So I'm, you know, on that verge, but despite losing my vision completely, I can still hear. So I'm not unconscious. I'm just

very, very close. And my instructor who's like looking over his shoulder waiting for me to try to gun him so he can defend himself is just like, what is she doing? Just twirling your thumbs Oh, why is she not pointing at me? What is she doing? So he makes a radio call to knock it off, which is like our code to like, hey, something's wrong. Let's end this fight. Yeah. So I hear that. I pull back the throttle. The jet starts slowing down. The Gs start dropping. My heart catches back up and my vision comes back. So I am kind of confused what just happened. Because I'm like, why did I not point at him? Why did I not win? Like what? Why was that so hard? I'm out of breath. But as I look around. I'm like, okay, I'm airborne. I'm okay. Like that, like, nothing happened, no harm,

no foul. Yeah. So we go, we land. And after we land, we go debrief where we pull up the recordings from our cockpit and we like look at all the numbers, our altitude, our airspeed, all the things. And what I should be seeing after I lit my afterburner right before I rolled and started pulling is for my mock number, which is, you know, Mach 1.0 is supersonic. Okay. It's just like another way to measure how fast you're going. I should get to about 0.9 mock. before I roll pull and that should be like the fastest I get

and then I start to slow down. As we watch that I hit 0.9 and then 0.95 and then 0.9 and 0.0 so I'm now Supersonic and I'm still accelerating. So now this aircraft that I'm like anxiety just like hearing about.

I'm like I'm going to faint. Yeah, it did not set me up for success. So I'm going supersonic and when I roll and pull now the aircraft has so much speed and power that I could just pull forever. Like the only limiting factor in that airplane is my physical body. Oh. Not the ability of the jet to like maintain enough energy to hold nine Gs. So I hold nine

Gs, nine times force of gravity for a full 360 degree turn, which was like three times, four times longer than I'd ever done before, which is why I was like barely conscious. Yeah. And all of this happened to get back to the call sign because I didn't adjust some. The engines I was flying in in that operational squadron were a different variant than I had learned to train in. Okay. And they had more power. But I'm just young and dumb. So I don't realize I need to adjust what I do airborne because of that.

So I'm just like, full after burner. Cool. Now let's worry about everything else. Yeah. So I went supersonic. So Mace is an acronym. It stands for Mock at Circle Entry. It's so pilot jargon heavy.

But it's basically because I broke the speed of sound. Yeah. What I didn't mean. Not only was I not supposed to, because. now I'm going so fast I can never turn tight enough to point in. Right. So I am just like trying to make a turn that requires 30 miles an hour at 60 miles an hour. Like if you imagine in a car, you're just never going to make it. And so I'm going to lose. But I think the biggest thing is I almost Glocked. Like that could have been really

bad. So how many people do Glock? How like, what do they do if this does happen and you're completely blackout and you're just like floating in your plane? Yep. And it has happened several times. So around the time I came in, the Air Force developed new technology for the airplane to recover on its own. Like if the computer sensed the jets pointed straight at the ground, it's too fast, too low, it will initiate a pull-up. Those systems I did not have in my squadron in Japan. It was in the midst of being implemented then. Yeah. But several F-16 pilots have had fatal crashes. Oh, sad. It's a big deal. It is like the, I would say, the highest risk in that type of jet because it's just so powerful it turns so quickly the Gs are so high and we're not really

going to combat these days and like fighting other airplanes right we're just not in those situations right hopefully it stays that way yeah so there's more danger in training honestly yeah yeah no kidding it's it's something that a it hurts like you feel like you're being crushed right but be it has like it's life threatening yeah damn man yeah I could never my anxiety would be like yeah I probably should have just pepper sprayed someone yeah Yeah, you definitely. Truly, that. I was like, when I saw it, I was like, can't wait to hear that story. That is scary. And I know it's intense. And it's hard to explain because it is like so pilot and technical. Yeah.

But, yeah, it was not super fun, I'll be honest. No, it doesn't sound fun. Yeah. That's not the word I would use. Yeah, no. And then the Thunderbirds and lead solo pilot role. That, there's hearing the Thunderbirds gives me like goosies. So you're familiar. Well, of course. Isn't everyone? You'd be surprised. Oh, really?

I feel like it's two camps. People who have seen an air show at some point or a flyover. I guess so. Whether it's the Thunderbirds or the Blue Angels, like we kind of do the same thing, same mission, just different branches. Yeah. And they're like, oh my gosh, that's so cool. Or it's people that have like never been to an air show, never seen a jet fly. And they're like, la, la, la, what's a Thunderbird?

Oh, okay. It's like. Yeah, two different groups of people. That's true, I guess. I feel like I wouldn't have known until I moved to the state. I'm Canadian. I feel like we don't know. You have the snowbirds.

Are you familiar with this? You have your own demo team. Actually, yeah, I do know that. I didn't even think about that till right now. Snowbirds, yeah. So I've done tons of air shows with them, and they were my favorite team to hang out with, like personality-wise. Really?

Because we're Canadian. Yeah, you're so nice and fun, and you say open, sorry. I'm from northern Wisconsin, so I'm like, these are like my cousins. You're like honorary. But you know what's so funny is I was just with a group of my Canadian best friends in Cabo. We, like, went there for my 18th, 40th birthday celebration. and my girlfriend from here and then my other girlfriend who's from Kentucky

came with us and they were like dying because they're like talking like this they're like hey you got that itch stick from my bites and they're like talking and then my girlfriends all went oh like they would start their sentence with oh thank you are you okay like oh what are we gonna do today and it was just so and I've been in Nashville for 10 years so I was so I was like seeing both and I was like

oh my gosh I see it now like yeah the Canadians versus but it's so funny because the Canadians also can hang and like go for it and have a good time and then be like so polite and kind yeah yeah it's funny I like it I feel like they're just the most fun I also love people from Wisconsin we're good yeah really good people what more can you ask for that's about it yeah truly the first time I ever went my girlfriend um who used to be my producer shout out to Alicia I miss you um she was like, okay, we got to do all the Wisconsin things. So she took me for beer and cheese. Yeah. She's like, check. Okay. And I had to get like the squeaky cheese curds. Yeah. Which I'm like, well, we did this with Poutine. Like I love a cheese curd. Yeah. So it was like hilarious though.

Because she's like, okay, you have to have this beer. It was something with a cow on it. Oh, yeah, spotted cow. Spotted cow. So good. So good. And you can only get it there. And the cheese curds, the squeaky cheese curds. And what else? There's something else. I won't drink the milk, but brots. I don't know. That's like the other thing. The Packer, the Green Bay Packers. Those are the things, Wisconsin. I went to a game. Oh, at Lambeau Field. Yep. It was very cold. It was in January. Oh, you went full experience. I was like, I'm Canadian. I can hang. And then I like had to go early. My beer was frozen. Yeah, it's about right. I like did the, but I got the memo. I sat on the like foam and put my feet on foam so that like the metal from the bleachers like didn't. Yeah. It was. It was. crazy, but man, people are awesome there. I really had a great experience. But anyways, back to the Thunderbirds. Oh, yeah, we digress. I digress. You weren't just in the squad. Like you, you were the lead solo, which I feel like is so next level. Yeah, it's just one of the pilot positions.

It's kind of unique because for people that are familiar or aren't, so the air show is six jets. Yeah. Like they fly in the, looks like a flying Dorito kind of formation. That's called the Delta when all six jets are together. And numbers one through. four are the diamond. They make a diamond shape when they're flying. So Thunderbird one who leads the entire squadron is out front for that. And then you have the two wingmen and the slot pilot who's behind. On the far left and right wing are the solos. And that was my job, which it's great because you don't have to fly in tight formation for an entire demonstration staring one direction at a jet next to you, which like your neck starts to hurt and you don't

get to look around at all because you're just like, well, I will stay in position. So we get to split off. And we get to do single jet maneuvers to really showcase like the power of the F-16. So we get to go just under the speed of sound because the FAA doesn't let us break the speed of sound at air shows. We get to pull eight to nine Gs a bunch of times. There was one maneuver where I did a climb from 150 feet off the ground, which is very low, up to 15,000 feet and like a climbing spiral in like 20 seconds. Whoa. So when I think about back to being a kid and loving roller coasters and imagining that fighter pilots must be like riding a roller coaster every day. That wasn't so true in the operational like combat squadrons.

Yeah. But in that squadron as a solo pilot, it was like, this is why I'm here. This is why I wanted to do this. This is so fun. Did you ever get sick? I have never gotten air sick, knock on wood. I will say if I'm in the back seat of an airplane and someone else is flying and it's hot, I don't feel great.

Right. So for people that do get sick, that's kind of normal. I couldn't even sit in the back of the bus and. Mexico going to the dinner. That's crazy. I get kind of car sick, too, so I don't know. Which is so interesting. Yeah.

But, okay, so you were only the second woman ever to fly in that role? Yeah, so the team has been around since 1953, so a hot minute. And I was the fourth woman at all to fly for the team in history. So the first one was 2005, so I feel like we're a little behind the eight ball on that. But then as far as the lead solo position, there was one woman before. me, Samantha Weeks, and then myself. And actually, the third one ever is on the team right now. Wow. How does that feel? It was one of those things where I'd be like, is it not clocking to you that I'm standing on business? Bieber, shout out. It was one of those things where it was

like a lot of people thought I was the first. So I was constantly correcting people. Yeah. Because I don't want to take like unclaimed, I don't know, valor or whatever stolen valor from the women that went before me because they really paved the way. And some of the, stuff that Fifi is the call sign of the very first woman. Some of the stuff she had to deal with makes me so mad. It makes me like, I was going to want to punch these people in the face. Like what? Just people being like, what are you doing here?

Yeah. Like literally she would fly in air show land, go to the autograph line to meet fans. All these people are coming up, kids, adults, whatever. And it was usually older guys. That would be like, are you lost? What are you doing here? How did she react? Do you know?

She's like very calm. centered. That's when I would mason. And she said that her mantra was she would look at them. And then there was I was kids around them. Yeah. And she would just tell herself that is not my target audience. Yeah. And she would start talking to the little girl who was just in awe, you know, having that inspirational moment. And so I tried to do this thing thing. Oh, bless. That's a great. This is where I need some growth. Because there's trolls. Oh. I mean, you like, I was going to ask you about being in the wanting to be in an FBI. I was like, do you have those skills? Because I've got someone I think I know who's my biggest troll. I think I know her. You're like, we need to deal with that person. Yes.

Yeah, trolls on the internet now, I think mess with me more than they did when I was on the Thunderbirds because I was so focused on. You're just super busy. One air show to the next. You're on the road 240 days a year. Right. So you don't have time to be. People troll you online. Oh, yeah, for sure. And especially like recently with with the highlight in aviation and some of the mishaps that have happened, they're like, oh, you're a DEI higher or like. Oh, God. you're not in the cockpit anymore because we would crash like all this dumb stuff and I'm like have you ever seen have you been to an air show have you seen the flying that we did yeah no shit my guy oh my guy like if I wasn't meeting standards they're like this would you would not be capable of

doing the job it's just the margin for air is so small and it's it's very frustrating to take you know decades of working my butt off yeah and just like striving for these things so hard making so many sacrifices and then I get there and I get there because I know I have the capability and I executed it for three years. Right. And I do that with no issues at the highest level. And then you just have someone and probably a lot like you. Like you spend a lot of time when you become this like public figure online like curating your page to be a positive environment where you get to have the impact you want to have. And it feels like someone just stepped into your living room and just like assaulted you yes or insulted you but sometimes you're just like yeah i feel like

someone just slapped me in the face totally and that's the price you pay to be out there right but it still makes me mad sometimes i would just like list out my resume if how's you i would just like put it in writing a lot of times my other followers will be like uh sir do you know who you're talking to and it's always better to let them do it rather than me see that would piss me off more i just have like like these like women who just hate if it was a man I think I'd hate it more it's sad that it's women but it would make me angry if it was a man it is so interesting because all of my 99.9% of the people I get told by our men I think it's because I'm doing this thing in the male dominated field I'm like defying what women should do yeah and I think you're crushing it

in this space like that's more dominated by women so you run to the jealousy oh that's a good point that's a really good point and like I'm sure your goal when you're creating your content or doing whatever is not to make other women jealous no it's to inspire them yeah once in a blue moon I'll get sassy and want to piss them off like I think it's it's one thing to clap back yes right yeah yeah yeah yeah like we're humans for the most part like my intention and my like what I want is to yes I want to make people laugh I want to make people smile right inspire people to be more themselves yes that's so true And I think intention is a big thing that gets overlooked.

Like you put something out and it's received in a certain way by someone and they condemn you for that. Right. Like, how dare you make me feel bad about myself? Yeah. I should go to the gym and I hate you because I didn't. Yeah. Yeah. Like your intention matters in that scenario.

But for them in that moment, it doesn't. And it's frustrating. Right. Oh, my God. I didn't even think about how you could get trolled by men. That's crazy. But I do have, I mean, I have so much written down here about like the pressure and the role and and what that took to be a woman in that space because it is so male dominated.

Like, you obviously felt pressure. For sure. And like the trolls is one thing. That's like its own animal. But when you're the actual pressure while you're in the role is totally something different. And a lot of that took place before I was even on social media. And so it was kind of twofold. Part of it was just the pressure I put on myself.

Yeah. Part of it was like little nuanced things the people around me would do where it felt like the spotlight was on me more than it was on anyone else. Yeah. Yeah. And there was like this room waiting with baited breath to see if I would succeed or fail. Not that they wanted me to fail. No. But they're all just like curiously waiting like, oh, how did her flight go? Yeah. And that added pressure when you're already in such a high performance, high repercussion environment that inherently has so much pressure. Right. It's just like the straw that breaks the camel's back. You're like, I can't handle that every person in this squadron immediately will know if I have a flight that's not great.

Right. Because they're going to be like, oh, all female fighter pilots aren't good at that. Because it's obviously all men. So they were like, yeah, they were just paying closer attention and like waiting almost. Yeah. And these are my friends too. So I don't think it was like male intent. Okay.

But when you're, when they're like collecting data on stereotypes about other humans, as we all do, like we all, a lot of us, you know, will take our personal experiences with someone and we end up making generalizations. It's a flaw that we all have, I think, to some extent. And I am their data point of one. Yeah. So if I crush it on something, they're like, hell yeah, female fire pilots are great at insert said skill. If I struggle at something else, they're like, female fighter pilots just really aren't good at insert other skill. And that feels like a lot of pressure. Totally. Well, it is. You're creating a stereotype for an entire demographic of people. No kidding. And I think one of the other things that I really struggled with was knowing when to speak up or just like try to fit in. And I, wanted to fit in and not rock the boat and just be one of the guys so bad, but things would be said

that may be really uncomfortable. Yeah. They were just like inappropriate, and they would know it. And so people would be joking around. They'd say something and every head in the room would turn and be like, oh, is Mason here? Wait for her reaction. Yeah. And I don't want the responsibility of my facial expression or whether I laugh or I don't, setting

the bar for what's acceptable as the culture in this entire squadron. That's not my job. Right. But you also like have that part of you that wants to be like, you can't say that. You do. But when I was young, I think the part of me I wanted to fit in was stronger. Yeah. Now it's a very different situation because my confidence has grown and my credibility in the field. Totally. But when I was brand new, I would just laugh along at anything pretty much because I was like, I just want to fit in so bad. Aw.

But then it feels super inauthentic. Well, I'm just like relating to this in a much, much different way because I, you know, used to, I hate when people are like, I was just a guy's girl. I find myself to be both. I feel like I have a bit of masculine energy and feminine energy and I can lean into both. And I always liked being around guy friends. Yeah, same. But I would struggle with that too because I would be like, I want to laugh and fit in, but like this doesn't feel right or authentic to like what I believe, but I would do the same thing. Right. And I think it's especially when comments are said that are like demeaning to women in general. And I know my experience was they were never said to me. Yeah.

Because I was one of their peers, right? I was one of their friends. I'm like one of the cool women. But when you say something about like all women in general, right. I feel like I'm betraying all women in general if I'm just like, oh, yeah, totally. Yeah, totally. I agree. Yeah.

Yeah, that's confusing. It was confusing and it made me feel like I went to work and I played dress up. Like I put on this persona to be something I wasn't and I pretended to be super type A and assertive. and one of the guys and laugh at all the jokes and like fantasy football and all the things. And then at home I'd be like, I just want some girlfriends to have a glass of wine with. Like, this is not really my entire personality. Yeah, because you don't want to like shrink your femininity, but you almost do just to like get to where you need to. But I guess in doing that, in hindsight, it was like what you needed to do to get to where you're at.

And now you're able. You're like, like you said, you've got the resume behind you. confidence behind you and all the things that you need to be like, I've arrived and I can stand up for both now. I think so. And I don't like look back and be like, oh, I wish I would have done that differently. Yeah, yeah. I try to give myself at that time like grace, be like, you had a lot of pressure on yourself. Like you did what you needed to do. But I think it gives me some great perspective now where I can kind of help other women who are in that situation and be like, look, here's the pros and cons of doing that. And here's, I see you and the pressures you're under. Here's the cost that comes

with that. And often I think we build up the repercussions of what will happen if we show up as ourselves as much bigger than they actually are. Always. And a lot of times you are welcomed into the fold and accepted more than ever if you're just like, screw you guys. I'm just like, this is me, take it or leave it. And they're like a little bit of shocked at first. And then they're like, oh, we actually like you. Cool. Yeah, because who doesn't want to be around somebody just you know, being who they are. I just feel like it's so obvious when people aren't. I agree for sure. And I'm like, and maybe again, that's age and life experience, but I can just tell immediately when someone's not being authentic and I'm just like, bye. Once I did a lot of

therapy on myself, but also shifted my mindset to think of other women as inspirational instead of like, they have what I don't. It changed everything. Exactly. And I recognize this shift happening because I would, you know, be the only woman or one of two occasionally in whatever unit I was part of and I would if there was another female pilot in my squadron we were I was like best friends yeah and so we would go to some big exercise where there's all these different units from around the world that come together and I would immediately see the other female fighter pilots right and I would be like oh is she prettier than me is she more experienced than I am is she a flight lead and I'm only a wingman and how does she interact with the guys in her squadron is she like welcomed into the

fold and I would like have that physical feeling of jealousy yeah and and and that was my insecurity. And there came a certain point where I was like, wait, all of the female fighter pilots that I've gotten to actually know, whether I was in the same squadron with them or I just ended up spending time with them, have become my best friends. Yeah. Because we get it more than anyone else will ever get it. And it can be such a missed opportunity to bond and, like, have that sisterhood with other women who know what you're going through and who deal with what you deal with and to like get creative and think of, you know, like it's, you need that sisterhood. And how, I mean, if you were I always think about giving advice, like, if women are listening or girls are watching or certain things where they're like, I am such a jealous, insecure person. And I do do that. I compare myself to this. And I get jealous of like the other girls in the room. What would your advice be? Just try to get to know them. Like what's the worst case scenario? Go up. Instead of eyeing them across the room, whether that's like at your office or on a sports team or whatever. Like go up, introduce yourself. Be friendly and welcoming. Like be like, where are you from? Whatever. Make small talk. Doesn't even matter what it is. I would say nine out of ten times.

that like facade that they're also probably putting on will just melt away totally and all of a sudden you're like oh like instant connection or they'll be like cold and shut off and then you go oh i'm not i wouldn't have bonded with you anyways and then your insecurities can go away because you're like oh they aren't very nice kind of a jerk so yeah i don't want to be like them anyway yeah i agree it's so simple to like go up and i like you said nine times out of ten i bet you would find something in common you'd find something that you like about them and then it would feel good. I always think about how it feels walking away from those situations too. Like if you are comparing yourself or being jealous and you're looking for things to not like

about them, you feel like shit after. Where if you go up, you ask them a question, you get to know them, you feel inspired by them. You're kind. You have a nice conversation. You walk away. Just feeling so good. Yep. Like you're lighter. You're brighter. It's just like it's so simple and effective. Yeah. And so many of us don't do it. Right. We just do the side eye from across the room. Yeah. And turns out the person's a lovely person if you just, maybe they have resting bitch face. Okay, I'm usually better than weather talk. But now that the weather is cooling down and the days are getting shorter,

I'm like in full on make space cozy mode. Candles are lit. Blankets are everywhere. Hot coffee in hand. Wayfair is my go-to for all of it. They seriously have everything you need to coesify your space for fall, whether that's like a big comfy chair you never want to get out of, maybe warm bedding or those little autumn touches like throw pillows and pumpkins that just make a room feel like fall they even have espresso makers you guys so yes you can make your own latte at home now i just grabbed a super soft throw blanket and a little cute lamp for the podcast studio what that does to a room is incredible the blanket is basically the softest thing ever and then the lamp just makes the whole space come together and feel warm and cozy while we record and shipping is always so fast and it's free and it's free and

And honestly, it makes me that much more excited to be in the studio now. And the best part about Wayfair is that they've got something for every style and every budget. So you don't have to shop in 10 different places, you know, furniture decor appliances, cookwork. It's literally all in one spot. So Cozify Your Space with Wayfair's curated collection of easy, affordable fall updates. From comfy recliners to cozy bedding and autumn decor, find it all for Wayless at Wayfair.com. That's W-A-Y-F-I-R.com. Wayfair, every style, every home.

The ultimate grown-up summer camp is officially coming to Destin, Florida, September 26 to 28, and it's called Lady World. Headliners include Hannah Burner, comedian and star of Giggly Squad, Stasi Schroeder, Lady Gang, Girls Got to Eat, Chicks in the Office, Justin Sylvester, Rachel Lindsay, Caitlin Bristow, and so many more plus music from the main, and pop 2K members of InSync, B, B, B, Mac, O Town, Mark McGrath from Sugar Ray, Ryan Cabrera. Ugh, it's just our dream lineup. Three days of activities, three nights of shows, all for $300.

Tickets are available now at ladyworld.co. That's ladyworld, L-A-D-Y-W-Rold.C-O. But hurry up because they are really going fast. Lady World presented by Elf Cosmetics takes over Destin this September. Your resume, like reads like a superhero's. You have over 1,500 flight hours, 163 in combat, and this is not just flying jets.

It's life or death missions. Yeah, that's accurate. I look at, you know, you're such like even kill. You're like, yes, I did do that. I am a superhero. I just want to know, like, what exactly, first of all, what were your missions in Afghanistan? Yeah.

Yeah. So the mission we had there was close air support, which essentially means we are the airborne support for our troops on the ground. So we have, you know, Army, Marines, all those guys are trying to complete some sort of mission. Maybe it's clearing a village or they're looking for a Taliban leader or whatever it is. And they can get into pretty bad situations pretty quickly with a firefight, getting out gun, getting pinned down. And so we owned the skies there. We call air superiority.

And it was all American aircraft or ally aircraft that were doing Overwatch. Okay. So we have, I was people airborne. we, you know, can get places pretty quickly. And so if something happens with those guys, they will call in for air support. We show up and we're talking on the radio to some guy on the ground. And he's like, this is where we are. This is where the bad guys are.

Like, get your eyes on them. And we have a pod so we can zoom in because we're up at like 20,000. Yeah, yeah. And then we try to get clearance like, do we need to employ weapons against the bad guys? Right. Do we need to just drop super low and fly over super fast, very close to them, show a force and just scare them away, sometimes that works. So yeah, it was a lot of boring, mundane waiting with a few very stressful moments that would occasionally happen. And when the stressful moments

happened, how do you remain calm? Is it the like adrenaline and the compartmentalizing that you're talking about earlier? We would train so much for those specific deployments. Like the entire months and months leading up to them, we were running scenarios that would be very similar to what we experience in a deployed environment. And so you've already done those reps. You've already done it 100 times. So you're like, okay, this is real real real. I mean, you would get the adrenaline, though, especially the first few times or if something

was, you know, American troops are super close to where you need to employ your weapon. Like there's a danger there. Yeah. And I think every fighter pot's worst nightmare is dropping the wrong people on the ground, right? Innocent people, civilians or friendly troops. Like that is the worst case scenario. And so that is a thought that you have, but you learned. set it aside and you're like the way i prevent that from happening is to be dialed in and

focus on what i'm doing and then how do you like stay connected to yourself in an environment that can feel like so dehumanizing yeah no totally like that was to me i don't even know if you do stay connected to yourself i think you find this really great camaraderie with the people you're there with the other people in your unit who are having these same experiences and from what I've seen, no one goes out and is like, I'm so excited to kill people today. Right. They're like, we're here to do a mission. Yeah.

We like know what we're standing for. We know who's good. We know who's bad. We know why they're bad. And it's like what we've signed up to do. And you get really close with the people you work with. I think you also develop some routines to protect your like sanity. Like everyone works out a ton when they're deployed.

because there's not anything else to do really you eat you sleep you go fly a mission well that's a healthy way of doing it because i feel like you know people who want to numb some things that like are pretty dark yeah like working out is a good way to do that of the option it's like a healthier one right and i i would never compare what we do to the men and women that are like in the thick of it on the ground face to face the sounds the smells all the things yeah i'm married to a marine so like he has experienced that. Oh, okay. And he'll give me a hard time sometimes because like my deployments were inside of the protected base. Right. Or I was thousands of feet in the air. So they were very safe relative to those guys. But they're still very high risk, high repercussions. Yeah. Like you still

have the pressure of doing the mission correctly. Wow. That's how long have you and your husband been together? Six years. Oh. Yes. That's cute. And you met through that world? We met on Bumble. Obsessed. Yeah. It's. It's a story I tell during my keynotes because it's the most relatable thing. I was literally flying for the Thunderbirds and I was on Bumble, but I didn't have that in my profile because that would just attract all sorts of weird people. So I had Air Force pilot, but not fighter pilot and not Thunderbird pilot because we don't want to go down that path. And I think Bumble, like you both swipe right, you get matched up, but then only at that time only the woman could send the first message. Oh, yeah, I do remember that.

message you. And you have a 24-hour window to do that or that match just vanishes forever because they're trying to get people to take initiative. And so I swipe right on him. He swipes right back. We get matched up. And I find him so good looking that I'm like intimidated to send a message. And I talk now about like taking calculated risks, being bold, like believing yourself, taking action. But not on bumble. And this was like such a classic example of where I had that like, oh my gosh, this guy's really attractive, oh my gosh, I should send him a message. I really don't want rejection. So we'll just not even try. Like, let's just let the match disappear and find someone uglier. Like what? What's my goal? That's funny. What am I doing here? Let's find someone

ugly. So he used an extension where he paid extra to get that 24 hours to be 24 longer. Oh, cute. And that was like enough for me to be like, oh, maybe he didn't accidentally swipe right on me. Oh my gosh. Yep. And now we're married. And how long have you been together, together, not married? Oh, we were only dated for six months before we got married. Oh, I love that. You knew. Yeah.

Well, I guess I'd do everything fast, apparently. Okay, so then what made you say that's time to do something different? Yeah, so, I mean, several things. Well, A, I had gotten married, and I now have a stepson, who was six years old at the time. Yeah. And being active duty military and moving every few years and having, like, no control of where you go or when. Yeah. Just didn't fit well in our family situation.

The family equation changed. So that's number one. Number two, I was in constant back pain from pulling nine times force of cavity, like 10 times a week for three years straight. I'm never complaining about my back pain again. Turns out a little compression on your spine. So I was like, I don't know that doing this for another seven years to get to a 20 year retirement is worth my body being so beat up that I can't go for a hike when I'm 50. Right. Right.

So that was a factor. And then the third thing, and I think this is why I don't. pivoted to what I'm doing now and not to flying for the airlines, which is like what all my friends do. It's a natural transition. I had these moments throughout, you know, three years there. I get there initially to the Thunderbirds and the flying is the most fun part. It's super exciting, super fun. It's challenging. Eventually I get my arms around that and it becomes kind of routine. Yeah. Still not easy. You've got to be focused, but you've done it a thousand times. And then I start to have these interactions with these little girls at air shows. And as the flying, I kind of got control

of that, I could focus more on enjoying these interactions instead of feeling like they were distraction from the flying. And so by my third year, you know, I would land from an air show. I would go up to this autograph line and so many parents, a lot of moms would drag their little daughters up and they would be like, look, like these kids are like eight, nine years old. They'd be like, look, she just flew those jets you just watched. Remember that one that did the spiral up in the sky or the one that was upside down that you loved? That was her. And you would see this little kid connect the dots that someone that looked like them that they can see themselves in just did this thing that seems like super superheroess and they would light up like

in that moment what they saw as possible for them in the world just got bigger cool that was the coolest thing I ever got to do and I wanted to keep doing that yeah and so I think speaking and writing and creating content allows me to connect with so many people and now that I've been doing that for three years I'm getting their success stories like they will follow up with me years later yeah like I saw you speak at this thing and because of that I actually just saw a guy last week he saw me speak two years ago and he's like 50 and he went back to get his PhD cool and he's almost done now god knowing you have that impact like must feel so surreal it's wild yeah because that's huge that's like life changing for people and you know you had this dream and you fulfilled your dream and then it must

have come with a grieving process stepping away from something that you were tied to with your identity but then to have those kinds of things it's like you kind of are living out two different dreams in one life and I think now I get to completely be myself yeah I don't have anyone else's talking points to follow I don't have any boss telling me I need to make this decision or that decision. Yeah. And so to get that cup filled over and over and over by feeling like I get to give this gift to people, but also feeling like completely aligned and authentic and like I get to just be myself. Yeah. And there's no performative aspect to it. It feels so amazing. I bet. I feel like like a major pivot in life like that can be so scary and like you question everything. But it sounds

I can correct me if I'm wrong, but it just felt very aligned for you. It did. And I mean, it's still a roller coaster ride, right? Like going from a military job security, set paycheck benefits, all the things to an entrepreneur where it's like feast or famine. You're like, wow, this really cool opportunity is happening. I'm so excited. That's going to pay the bills for. And then, oh, it's not happening anymore. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Now what's happening. And some of those moments are so exciting and so fun. And the opportunities that come in that you could have never imagined. Like, I just think about like your journey from. the bachelor to now? Yeah, yeah. Like, what? It's tuck. I also like roller coasters apparently. Right.

Yeah, it's the ups and downs and the all arounds is, but I love it. I love it so much. I feel like I was definitely meant to live that kind of life. But it's, yeah, it's just a big change after, you know, something that you are so tied to. And then it's like, what's scary? You're flying 500 miles per hour upside down or giving your first keynote speech. Oh, I mean, I think the keynote speech. as far as like concentration of fear in the moment.

Yeah. Because I didn't go just fly 500 miles upside down day one. Right. Like I kind of eased into that. There's no way to give a keynote speech without just giving a keynote speech. Yeah. So it's like there's a live audience out there. Rip the Band-Aid off and you're like, why is my mouth so dry?

Yeah. Oh, my gosh. I'm sweating so much. And then you obviously wrote a book, the flip side. I feel like that's obviously a powerful title and concept, turning fear into a superpower. So what inspired you to write the flip side? I had all of these stories that I was sharing in these little, like, bite-sized snippets on social media or little anecdotes in a speech, you know, a 45-minute keynote speech. You can tell a couple short stories, but there were so many more.

Yeah. And it wasn't, the goal wasn't just to create a book full of fighter pilot stories. It was like every one of these were transformative in my career and taught me a lot. And I, like, went through some pretty hard trials and tribulations trying to fumble my way through learning from them. and there's so much that other people can learn and some of it is just the wisdom and growth that comes with learned experience and some of it is the tools that the Air Force taught me

about compartmentalization. Oh, that's cool. About like an emergency happens in the jet, what do we do next? Like how do we navigate that where we can create a pause between this bad thing happening and this adrenaline rush that we're going to get?

Like fighter flight's going to kick in because we're people, we're human. Right. But how do we pause and then choose to respond in a way that doesn't make it worse? Yeah, the power of applause, man. Yeah, we can use that in internet trolls, in a conversation during a keynote when you forget what you're going to say. Yeah.

Someone cuts you off in traffic. Like there's so many things that all those tools translate to in day-to-day life. This is not written for other pilots. Yeah. Yeah. It's written for, especially other women, honestly. Yeah. You know, a whole customer avatar thing, like, who are you speaking to?

Mm-hmm. I'm like, I know people that love Jets are going to want to read the book regardless. Right. But my target audience are other women who are going through big pivots or going through change and they're doubting themselves and they're letting their fear hold them back, whether that's a new college grad going into the workforce or it's a mom going back to work after being off or it's a career pivot or it's someone retiring. Yeah. And I'm like, I want to help those women believe in themselves. Oh, that's amazing. Oh, I want to show everybody. I don't know

which way it goes. I know, right? Every single person is like, is this upside down? I'm upside down. The words right side up. Perfect. Nailed it. What does it mean to invert your perspective in real life terms. Yeah, right, because the cover is all fun, me being upside down. I flew inverted a ton as the lead solo for the Thunderbirds. I was upside down for the crowd more than anyone else. So it's a fun play on that. Cool. But I think it's, you know, reframing fear is, you know, a huge part based on the subtitle. It's pretty obvious. But fear is our primal reaction to try to keep us safe, right? Our brain's like, we don't like this. Yeah. If we do this, we're going to die. Yes. Most cases, not my previous career, like being an exception. Usually that's not the actual case, right? We're not physically

in danger. We're in danger of judgment or failure. We're embarrassing ourselves. And when you can recognize that fear, zoom out, get perspective on what it actually is, that it's this signal and that it doesn't have to mean, stop, don't do this thing. It's just a data point. And instead, you can often use it to be like, oh, this is something probably worth doing. This is something that's going to push me to grow. This is something that's going to have a lot of opportunity associated with it. You know, higher risk tends to come with higher reward as well. And so reframing not only fear is a stop sign, but as just a data point and a signal that we can then step back and be like,

okay, what is my long-term goal? Okay, what's the worst case scenario? Yeah. A lot of times if you sit down and tell someone, like, hey, I'm thinking about doing this thing and I'm kind of afraid, here's the worst-case scenario. Just saying it out loud, you're going to be like, well, I guess that's really not that bad. No, that's so true. I just had this conversation with my sister because she has an insane feeling.

around the dentist and I was trying to talk her through it because now she had to get a root canal and I'm like if you would have just done something scared in the first place you would have got through it and now you wouldn't have had to have a root canal this is a very dumb example but I mean like it's that short term like fear people have to do the easy thing where if you just my one of my favorite sayings and I want to get it tattooed on me is do it scared yeah because every time you come out of doing something that you were afraid to do you grow tremendously from it and learn so much. And usually it's benefited you in some way, even if it ended in a quote unquote fail, you've still learned so much from it. Still learn something. And having people recognize that

even if they don't get the result they wanted, it still created resilience. And it created confidence and it taught them these things. And I like to say, don't let your short term emotions get in the way of your long term goals. Yeah. Because so many of us do that. Yeah. I mean, again, that can be something this small is going to the dentist or something. as big as changing careers. Yeah. What are tools or practices that you use or talk about in the book when fear shows up? I like to, so I think a lot of people associate fear with their inner voice, like their inner

voice of doubt. The two get all like mixed together. And so I have some different types of inner critics in there that I talk about. One is the fear critic. And that is risk of like physical harm. Like I said, if you do this, you will die like that feeling. But I break it down into some other ones. It's like the reputation critic, the friend critic.

Like if I do this, I will be excommunicated from the tribe. Like I will no longer fit in with the cool crowd. Yeah. Or if I do this, my friend won't like me anymore. The wrong critic, that's like if I say this and I can't defend it like a college thesis, I'm going to be wrong. And I don't, I should just keep my mouth shut because I can't be wrong. And I think that's especially true with like different world events and stuff.

Like you can't have an opinion if you don't know every single thing. Yeah. Because how like God forbid you be wrong. in regard. Yeah. And so when I break those out for people, almost everyone will be like, that's me. Like I, that is why I get my own way. And just creating that perspective for them where they can identify with it.

Now when they're in the middle of it, they're like, oh, wait, that's the reputation critic. Mm-hmm. Oh, yeah. Just naming it sometimes, like being able to name it and say that's what it is, is helpful. It is. And I give my, like, inner critic its own name, his name, his name is Stan. I was going to ask. Okay.

Yeah. And like doing that. My brain sometimes her name is Katrina and she's a bitch. Yeah. And once you name it, it can like separate it from your identity. So now you're like, oh, cool. Thanks, Stan. Not helpful.

Like you can sit down. I'm going to go do this. I'm going to do it scared. Yeah. Even though you're saying I shouldn't. Yeah. Because Stan is not me. Stan is just a data point.

My friend Brie, my best friend, her real name is Brian and her brain is Brian when he's being a dead. Love it. Yeah. It's so fun naming it. I mean, I named my fibroid. I got removed. It was Fiona, but then I was like, why did I not call her Felicia?

So now she's Felicia, but she's not here anymore with us. RIPP, Felicia. I feel like as long as I started with an F, it was a win. Pour one out for Felicia. She's gone. But yeah, that's, I love that. And then what's a message from your book that you hope really sticks with all the readers? Yeah, I think the biggest takeaway is that the key to progress is having the courage to start something.

Yeah. Even when you don't feel ready, just believing yourself enough to know you'll figure it out along the way. Believing in yourself goes so far, even if you like, I always tell the start. to people, even if you lie to yourself, like, just believe, just say it over and over again until you do. Because you have to do it. Yeah. You have to do it when you don't know how to do it.

Yeah. Or you'll never learn how to do it. Yeah. It's something that has really actually changed my life is thinking that way. But it really, like, if you truly adopt that mentality, yes. And the people that make fun of it, they're like, wait, that is actually true. Yeah. Yeah.

No, for real. I said last question, but I actually want to know, how do you help others reframe the stories that they tell themselves? because we do all have that inner critic. Is that what kind of what you just said with the different, like, labeling it? Yeah, the inner critic is a huge part of that. And I think really assessing the rewards that can come with taking the risk in a more objective way and trying to pull your emotions out of it.

And there's some other great tools in there. One of them is called the dream team. And that is, you remember like back in the 90s, the what would Jesus do bracelets? Like WWJD. Yeah, of course. So like in a moment of what do you think this says? Just kidding. morality should kick in. You should not punch that kid in school of the face. Like, Jesus would not do that. He would not. So it's kind of that idea. But instead of one person, it's an entire group of people, your dream team. And it's so it's picking people not in real life. You don't go out and find them that exhibit the strengths you want. And when you make it a team, each one of those people can be really skilled in one area. And they can be people you personally know. They can be celebrities. They can be people that are alive or dead or whatever. And so the example I use is,

Let's say I'm at the gym and it's leg day and I have one more set of squats left and I'm like, I really don't want to do these and I'll be like, what would Dwayne the Rock Johnson do today? He'd do eight more. Right, eight more. Not just one more, eight more. The Rock is not skipping a set on leg day. No, he doesn't. And so when you pick people that you admire and you actually name them, it gives you this like mental

reference of someone to look up to as a role model in that moment. And so another example I use is like, what if your grandparents have been married for 50 years and they have this great marriage and they're, very forgiving with each other. There's so much empathy and love. And you have that moment where you're like, why did my husband leave the cupboard door open again? Like who leaves the cupboard door open? And then you're like,

what would Mima do in this moment? Yeah. And so it can just give you concrete examples. And that's the dream team. And you can pick whoever you want for it. That's such a good idea. It's just, again, it sounds cheesy, but it's so useful.

No, I'm going to think of that. My grandparents were married for 70 years. Which is that insane, like to conceptualize that? They like met in kindergarten. garden and fell in love and then they were best friends and then they dated and then they got married and then they stayed with each other until like it was crazy but I'm like yeah they always let the small stuff go and they flirted with each other and they like the bickering was like flirty right they kept like their love is a priority like I'm letting you know I didn't love that you did that yeah I still love

you but then like a tap on the butt that's I like that I'm going to put together my dream team I think it works great for speaking as well because I'll be like who do I want to emulate on this stage who do okay who is your dream team when you think about being on stage I think... Bray, duh. Yeah, Bray's hilarious. Yeah, I know. Which is like unexpected.

She is so funny. Right? She's an academic and then you're just like one funny joke, dry sense of humor after another. Or maybe it's like Mel Robbins. Yeah, she's funny. Like so relatable to you. I feel like my message aligns with her a lot.

Actually, in my book proposal, we started off with if Mel Robbins flew fighter jets, she would write the flip side. Oh, funny. Because we're like, this is my target audience. It's like who she speaks to, right? Self-doubt. leave, do it scared, let them, go do the thing with confidence that you might not deserve yet, but you will get it once you go do the thing.

Yeah. Oh, that's cool. I just feel like you've lived 10 lives in one and you just are so wildly inspiring and it's so cool what you've done and relatable at the same time. So everybody go get the flip side. I can't wait to read it. Thanks. I mean working on it for three years.

So the fact that it's like, and I recorded it. Yes. Yes, okay, because I have a 12-hour drive on Friday. Oh, nice. And I'm almost done my first audiobook. That's what I'm listening to. Recording an audiobook is intimidating. Oh, my gosh.

Well, it's, I know so many people that have done it, and they say it's just like the most draining, but like vulnerable. And like you have to pronounce things the right way. And it's just hours and hours of doing it. And you want to like say it in your voice and like to carry through the way that you said it. It's hard. It's hard. It's hard. And then you realize that you've been mispronouncing a few words your entire life. And you'll say a word. And then the producer who's like in the headset is like, that's not how you say it? And you're like, I've been saying that for 38 years wrong. How is that? It's like I have food in my teeth this whole time. No told me. Yeah. I know. That's I always now from living in the States, I listen to my mom talk. And she says genuine instead of genuine. She says process instead of process. I feel like that's a super Canadian. Yeah. So many things and I'm like, she says it wrong. But when I watched, rewatch my season back of The Bachelorette, I said drama instead of drama. Like there's so much drama in the house. And I'm like, drama. Yeah. What am I doing? And tell everybody where they can find you because I'm sure that's where they can find the book as well. Yes, because I'm pushing it nonstop as any good author does. Yeah. You have to. So Mace underscore Kern. So call sign underscore last name is Instagram. And then Macekern.com is my website. And you can Google me and there's.

a ridiculous amount of things that pop up, like an embarrassing amount. I'm very easy to find. That's great. Are you going to do like a book tour? I'm going to do a little bit of hopping around. We're still trying to nail that down. Yeah, it's a lot. I think I would love to do something at like the Smithsonian Air and Space Museum.

Oh, cool. Right on brand. So yeah, we're still figuring all that out. I'll be in New York City during launch week doing all the things. Cool. Oh, that's awesome. Well, congratulations. And thank you so much for coming on.

Yeah, this was like just chilling with a friend. Oh, good. Oh, good. That's like the best compliment. I've always wanted to be like that. So thank you for saying that. We nailed it. Do you guys have fun? Is everybody in the room? Let the people know at home. It was fun. This September, CBS hits are streaming free on Pluto TV.

For this month only, streamful episodes of Madlock. I'm a lawyer like the old TV show. Fire Country. Ellsbeck. I do love a mystery. NCIS origins, Watson, and ghosts. What the hell? This is the most amazing sight I've never seen. All for free.

The CBS shows you love this month only on Pluto TV. Stream now, Payne Never. I'm Justin Sylvester. And I'm Blakely Thornton. Join us for Yestergays, the podcast where we break down the most pivotal pop culture moments in history and give them the queer love that they deserve. The things that got us riled up during dial-up. Those makeouts that should have been breakouts.

And the drops that were cemented in pop. I'm talking Benefer. Tyra versus Naomi. Tom Cruise jumping on that couch. And so much more. So please rate us, subscribe to us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or anywhere you get audio-related content. We also take Memo. And Cash App.

ACH. Or credit card number as well. We're malleable. Yeah, we're gay today.