Off The Vine with Kaitlyn Bristowe - Ruby Rose | Hollywood, Healing & Her First-Ever Podcast Interview!

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Starting point is 00:01:07 Welcome to Off the Vine. I'm your host, Caitlin Bristow. Today, my guest is Ruby Rose. This was her first podcast she's ever done. She is someone who's never really fit into a box. And I love this about her. I have a feeling she prefers it that way. You know Ruby Rose from Orange is the New Black,

Starting point is 00:01:23 Batwoman, John Wick, Chapter 2, pitch perfect three, and about a million other things. But she is now doing something that she has never done before. which is reality television. She's putting herself through special forces, world's toughest test, which means no character to hide behind, no stunt double,

Starting point is 00:01:40 and somehow voluntarily agreeing to be dropped into the Malaysian jungle and put through military-style training. Now, Ruby has been incredibly open about identity, mental health, fame, walking away from things that were right for her and what it looks like to keep reinventing yourself when the whole world thinks they already know who you are.

Starting point is 00:01:58 We do get into her childhood and how she went through some traumatic events, but that all shapes the woman that she is today. So please welcome Ruby Rose. I'm so excited. Let's just talk about it. You've never done a podcast before. Never done a podcast.

Starting point is 00:02:13 How come? You know, I put myself in a weird position where first I was like, I want to make a podcast. Okay. So I was like, I'll not go on anyone else's so I can make mine. And then I was sort of in the middle of making it thinking, you probably should have gone on some podcasts. know what they are and how they work.

Starting point is 00:02:32 Yeah. And a couple of people reached out to me who I, you know, love and appreciate, but one of them was like a very big podcast and I was like, I, yeah, I don't want to, you know, this is like many years ago. And I didn't have anything I really wanted to talk about. Yeah. And I sort of thought, I'll wait until there's a better sort of time. And then you knocked on the door and went like, clear.

Starting point is 00:02:52 My timing was perfect. Yeah. Wow. Well, thank you so much for doing this podcast. I really appreciate your time. and for you saying yes. I'm very excited to be here. I listened to some of your pod to like,

Starting point is 00:03:03 you know, and I was like, I like you. You've got a really good head on your show. I mean, I'm sounding like, I'm 110. You've got a really good head on your shoulders, love. And I just like the way you, there was a couple of podcasts that came through in the one offer and yours was the one that I picked. Wow. I said this out there.

Starting point is 00:03:21 I was like, it kind of makes me emotional just because there's so many podcasters out there. And I respect every one of them for how. they do it and why they do it. But I really just genuinely love conversations with different people and naturally headlines happen when they happen. Sometimes they don't. Sometimes they do for the weirdest reasons. And I've just learned to be like, I don't care about any of that. I genuinely enjoy having my phone down and just connecting with somebody for 45 minutes. It's just so special to me. And I feel like I have just taken so much from so many different people over. the years. And I wouldn't have got that if, you know, like, so many of us, our job is on our phone

Starting point is 00:04:02 and some of mine is as well. But this is just such a rare opportunity that we get to put our phones down and just connect. Yeah, it's awesome. I really love it. And there's this like eye contact aspect. Would you don't get, yeah, you don't even get that in a radio interview because most of the time they're reading through the scripts and sort of, you know. I don't even like looking down, like I know I have to ask questions, but because I, I love hearing people's stories. I feel like you have quite the story and you've, I don't know why I feel like you've lived so many lives. Well, I'm about to find out. But to me, it's crazy because before America really knew you as an actor, you were pretty famous in Australia already. You're modeling, MTV, hosting. So when you were

Starting point is 00:04:44 doing all of that, was acting always the thing that you actually wanted to be doing? Oh, this will probably blow your mind. But I never wanted to be an actor. You're joking. Never thought about it. until the minute before I decided to be an actor, which was odd. You know, most people, as young girls especially, you know, grow up wanting to be a singer, an actor, a performer. These days it's probably like influencer and podcast. And I just wanted to be a child psychologist. That was it.

Starting point is 00:05:14 Yeah. I had no interest in fame, no interest in movies. Hadn't really seen my version of myself depicted on TV anyway. So I'd sort of lost that connection that some people get. But my whole life, I studied psychology like somebody would have, you know, the same kind of emphasis on being famous, right? Like being in the mirror and holding up like your hairbrush and being like, this is an Oscar, like, didn't happen.

Starting point is 00:05:41 But I would spend all lunchtime reading psychology books at school and, like, thought that I was going to be the world-changing child psychologist. And on my first day at psychology, you know, about to start the rest of my life that I've been waiting for, you know, 18 years to do. A woman, I'm sitting, getting ready. A woman walks in the room and she's like, lights up when she sees me and she goes, Ruby, my goodness, it's me, Anna. And I was like, ah, wonderful. Hi, Anna. Like, I did not know this woman, but I was convinced that she did know me. Like, I really believed her reaction. And she was like, you know, we went to Errol Street primary together. We went to the same school. We lived in the same area. We were best

Starting point is 00:06:24 friends for three years. You know, I really, yeah, I really missed you. I'm like, I miss you too, babe. I've never met this woman. I mean, I have, but I didn't know. And basically, I, in that moment, real, my whole brain just like, when the session started and he's like, okay, everybody, get to your suits, you know, attention. I was like, how am I going to get through? My brain is eating itself right now. How does this woman know more about my life than I do? Why is she so happy to see me? And you didn't remember? And how do I not remember? Yeah. Wow. It's like, I went home and I asked my mom, who I was already terrified of. And I was like, look, I met somebody today who really claims to have known me as a child.

Starting point is 00:07:01 And I'm just wondering if, do you remember this person? And she did. Yeah. And remembered everything about Anna. And, you know, I had to acknowledge then and there that maybe I needed to do a little bit more work into my history and my childhood before I could become a psychologist that would help other people. And that's all I wanted to do was help other people. But when I realized that I probably needed a bit of help myself, I just. could not go back into that class and sit next to a girl that I, that knew so much about me

Starting point is 00:07:29 and I just didn't know her. And I wanted so desperately for her to now be my best friend because that's all I wanted. So I'm like, you mean to say I had one? And that she was amazing and like she's excited to see me after like 10 years. Oh, I'm going to get emotional. And I didn't get to remember her. Like that's wild. Wow. And I, what's so wild is that my mom had put me into modeling from a really young age. So I wasn't by any means a child star. I was just the, but I definitely had like the cameras and the face, the auditions and stuff like that. I just didn't make it. And I hated modeling and, you know, couldn't wait to get, I hated it so much. I was not good at it. I didn't like it. I hate cameras. I felt that a lot of the men were very predatory and I'd already had spidey

Starting point is 00:08:10 senses of that. So it just didn't feel like the place for me. Right. And I don't, I didn't care. Like, just, I didn't want the attention to be honest. And it wasn't how I'd been. I was really interested in the insides of people. Yes. I felt the whole thing was a bit odd. Yeah. And one time I was sort of in there ready to quit. Like I'd now got into this, what was I, 17?

Starting point is 00:08:30 And I was like, I can get, like, my mom can't make me do this anymore. Yeah, yeah. And walked in, there's like a, we're all lining up. It's one of those casting agents. It's like four foot tall and, you know, has a strong accent and he's like, your eyes are too close together. No good. You know, you're too short.

Starting point is 00:08:44 You're too fat. And I was like, you better. Like, you just come to, when he gets to me and he says, I'm just going to lose it. Like I was just at that point. And when he got to me, he was like, you're not a model. And that moment of like, I'm about to quit and love the. And he was like, you're a movie star.

Starting point is 00:09:02 And I was like, what does that mean? Like, is that a compliment? Is that an insult? Are you going to hire me? Are you not hiring me? Just give me an answer. What are you saying? Yeah.

Starting point is 00:09:09 What are you saying? Yeah. And he just walked on to the next person. And I'm like, I guess I'm not being hired, but also what does he know? Right. But also, I don't know what I want to do because the only thing I've ever. ever been good at and wanted to do with psychology. Why don't I just do what this weird guy says because he must know. And I went and save money to go to acting class and that's what I did.

Starting point is 00:09:30 You're kidding. And this was at 17. This is at 18. 18. Oh my gosh. So did you go back and do the like inner child work on yourself to then be able to, you know, put yourself out there for acting roles and do all that to move forward? A little. It had to happen kind of at the same time. Yeah. You know, so it was like, on the one hand, I was doing investigations into my family, like, I'd never met these people. Right. And also trying to figure out, what exactly does an actor do? What, you know, what, and because I didn't get into acting as the first role. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:10:00 Like, we were all told to kind of go out, audition for films. Melbourne didn't have a huge film industry. It's more like a Sydney thing. But we do have shows coming up, and MTV was doing a sort of find a VJ. And I was like, I don't know what MTV is. Like, I'd never had it. Oh my God. to pay for it in Australia. You know, it's like I didn't have pay TV. We grew up like pretty

Starting point is 00:10:20 broke. But I knew it had to do with music, like obviously. Sure. And walked in and auditioned in front of like 2,000 people or whatever and was like, I don't even know. What did you have to do for the audition? The audition was a series of different tests. So you'd go on and they'd say, I'm Madonna. Now, interview me. You know, and you just like, oh, hi Madonna. I'm, you know. Oh, wow. Yeah, it was full on. And then like, they'd get you up with somebody else and get you to interview each other. like really like job stuff. But I feel like you being so curious about other people and helping other people and

Starting point is 00:10:54 psychology probably helped you in that area. It must. Yeah, it probably did. I didn't even think about that. Yeah. I mentioned it. But I was and always have been so interested in people. I'm like, why am I so wanting to know that are you still close with Anna?

Starting point is 00:11:08 Do you keep in touch with Anna? I, look, if Anna is listening to this. She probably is. Anna. Anna, if you're listening, whichever camera I look at, I have not stopped thinking about you. This is Anna. Okay, sorry, Anna.

Starting point is 00:11:19 I have not stopped thinking about you since we met when I was 17 and three quarters, like two weeks from my 18th birthday. And I have been desperate to get in contact with you since. So if you do somehow get this, please contact me. Really? Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. Because you have studied, I'm sure you know the answer to this. Is it because when you go through anything traumatic, you do black it out?

Starting point is 00:11:40 Like, this is so, this is so, I'm not comparing. I'm not saying it's anywhere close. But I went through something just on TV, like when I was The Bachelorette, I got so badly manipulated by producers. I really believed that they were trying to help me. I didn't know anything about being on TV, making TV. Right. You know, I was so naive. And I'm glad I was.

Starting point is 00:12:04 But at the same time, I was so manipulated. And I tried to watch back my season for fun. And I actually cried and felt so sad for that person. because I blacked out so much of it from just like trust issues and manipulation and certain things that happened. Do you think that's what happened for you? Or why were you not remembering parts of your life? Okay.

Starting point is 00:12:28 And I, the thing was, I'd known everything that had happened to me in my life up into a certain point. And the whole thing about becoming a psychologist was like, if I can survive. Yes. Like, till I'm 18, we're good. Like, that's it. Then I'll become a psychologist. I'll help my parents.

Starting point is 00:12:44 I'll help myself, you know. And then when that didn't happen, it was sort of like the only reason I could become famous, for instance, because that's not what I wanted. And it's also was very scary because I didn't want, like the more eyeballs made me feel more in more danger, not more safe. So I can tell you another crazy story. Yes. I first learned about dissociative amnesia when I was 15. It didn't happen to me. It happened to a seven-year-old boy.

Starting point is 00:13:09 But it ended up with me being accused of murder. You're joking. I'm not kidding. You were accused of murder. At 15 years old? At 15 years old. And how? So basically when I was 15, my mom was an artist.

Starting point is 00:13:23 She had an art gallery showing two hours away from the city. After the gallery opening, they had like a, I guess, after party to sort of celebrate or whatever at the gallery owner's house. Yeah. And out in the bush, so the backyard's huge and there's like play equipment. And a woman had come. She brought her kids and she hadn't been out of the house in many years because she had a husband that was chronically ill, so we were all sort of supporting. I didn't know them, but, you know, I was 15. She had like two twin kids and then an older kid that was about seven. And as sort of the nights going on, you know, she's sort of, everyone's telling her to calm down and stop obsessing

Starting point is 00:13:59 over her children and sort of drink and have fun. And she hadn't, she kept being like, where are my kids? Where are they? And at one point, my friend and I went outside, we decided to smoke a cigarette. We had never done that before. We took one puff and we're like, oh, that's horrible, never doing that again. looked up and I saw something on the play equipment and I went, oh, I thought it was a doll hanging. Oh my gosh. And my friend also, we looked, locked eyes and we started walking towards it. I'd known my friend Myra for like my whole life.

Starting point is 00:14:28 As we got close enough, we could tell this was a real human, like a four and a half year old. There was blood coming out of his ears, nose and mouth. It was very traumatic. My friend Myra can't handle that. So she ran back to get the adults to come and rescue. I ran to the child, picked him up. and I thought I'd saved his life because there was a big deep breath and I was like, oh my God, like thank goodness, you know, got him back to the house. They went to do CPR, trying to keep him

Starting point is 00:14:54 alive, call an ambulance, all that sort of stuff. But unfortunately, he was brain dead for so long. It just wasn't. Oh, my. And then because you were there at the time, so no one knew what happened. So I ran in with him. They started doing CPR. We call the ambulance hospital all of that. As I'm sort of going home, he's gone out with the ambulance and I'm thinking like, this is good. You know, like he's going to be okay. Then I got a call saying that he probably wouldn't be okay. They were keeping him on a machine, but it didn't look great. And I just sent love, obviously, to the family.

Starting point is 00:15:23 And then the police turned up at my school. I'm like, so sorry. Or a thing too, because that's, of course, so traumatic for you. You're trying to help. Then police show up at 15 years old at your school in front of everyone to take you away and being questioned for murder. Yeah. Wow.

Starting point is 00:15:41 And, you know, I guess the thing was my best friend, Myra, her mom was like, you are not going back to school tomorrow. Like, you witnessed something horrific last night. Let's get you therapy and get you some help. Right. My mom was just like, off you go to school. Like there was no. So I'd gone nonstop to school. And then eventually once the police and all the rest and people were like, baby, you know, killer or whatever.

Starting point is 00:16:02 Like, I was just breaking down left right and center as like, help. Like I cannot go to this school and I cannot be bullied for something like everything else. I didn't care. But this. And what had happened was the mum had, what I think had happened was, I was quite obsessed with the mum. Yeah. Because she was young like my mum.

Starting point is 00:16:20 She was beautiful like my mum. But she seemed to really care about her kids. And I just was fascinated by like, wait, you're also cool and young. And like, what's, how do, maybe you like me, you know? Yeah. And I remember a few times meeting her eye as she was drinking on my mom was like pouring alcohol into it. True.

Starting point is 00:16:38 And I remember giving her a weird look because I was more shuttered. over my mother's behavior. You know, when she's saying, where are my kids? I just want to check and my mom's like, don't worry. And I was like, why would you listen to my mom? Right. Right. Listen, like you've got the right idea.

Starting point is 00:16:51 Yeah. And I think what it was is she mistook my curiosity and kind of admiration for her as being a bit of a weird kid. Oh. You know, which, you know, I guess I was. What child is not a weird kid? What child is not, exactly. And what did eventually happen was the older brother remembered.

Starting point is 00:17:10 So he'd had dissociative amnesia. Didn't realize. You know, he'd pushed his brother down the slide. The brother had been caught, trying to get him off the nail that he was caught on, his sweater, puts him to the side and then freaks out when he starts to see blood and ran and just had no memory for like two weeks. Wow. Finally had the memory, went back to the police and thank goodness told them because, I mean, they didn't think it was me anyway, but that doesn't always happen.

Starting point is 00:17:35 Yeah. The, you know, parents could have been like, we don't want you to go and say that, you know, or maybe that isn't true. But he, you know, he remembered. And then I was cleared, but she still didn't want me at the funeral. Oh, my gosh. So everyone else went except for me. And that's a stays with you.

Starting point is 00:17:53 Like that, that is, especially 15. I always talk about the fragile years of just teenage years. And things like that happening at 15, like that just, that doesn't leave your body, you know? And forgive me for not knowing this, but do you have a relationship with your mom? today? I do not. You do not. No. So you did not have a healthy, obviously, relationship with her. No. Especially because I heard you say that you wanted to get, you know, have psychology under your belt and you could help your parents. You wanted to help your parents. Yeah, I wanted to fix, I thought you could fix people back then. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:18:29 And then I also, because the thing about when you don't have particularly healthy parents, whether it's because they're abusive or they're addicts or there's a myriad of reasons. We don't get sort of the raising that we might deserve. Yeah. Oftentimes it's still mixed with some version of softness. Yeah. So it's like that you might get beaten, you might get neglected, you may not get fed, but then they may give you that hug. And so it's really a confusing.

Starting point is 00:18:53 So we had a relationship for far longer than we should have because I wasn't willing to address the reality of the situation. And I also thought that my life is so blessed and charmed now. Like, you know, I came from nothing. Poverty. My dad's, you know, he's dead now, but was in and out of jail. All of my uncles are pedophiles. Like just a really wild hereditary situation.

Starting point is 00:19:15 Yeah. Then I'm thinking, okay, at the age of 17, now you're going out for auditions at 18 and probably subconsciously looking for validation from people. But people weren't, like I read somewhere that you weren't getting, like managers weren't signing you. Like people weren't. I still can't really get a manager. What?

Starting point is 00:19:36 Like apparently I have one, but I haven't spoken to him in like three weeks. and I wrote to him like two weeks ago going, dude, I need to like get glam and, and, uh, outfits and what are we doing? Like we've got a press, my first press day in like, what, five, six years? I'm like not in this world. I don't, you know, want to be that much. So, but this is a great opportunity and let's go. And then nothing. I mean, I haven't, I don't even know if they're alive. Hello? That's so, you just want someone that, here's what I remember is every agent I had or manager earlier on in my career before breaking my body, we got like a Christmas card or a birthday card. or a birthday card or if my dog died, I'd get flowers.

Starting point is 00:20:10 And I would send them flowers if, you know, their daughter's first day at school or whatever. And the last couple of years, I can't even get someone to respond back to an email. So it's still just the same shit. It's different day. Whatever. Oh, my gosh. Well, you've just taken it upon yourself to just be your own.

Starting point is 00:20:26 Just do it, man. You don't need these people. These are gatekeepers. A lot of them are not great people. You don't actually want to work with them or for them. And you would know. Bad realization for me. I grew up in Canada thinking everyone.

Starting point is 00:20:37 wanted what's best for me. And then I like at the age of 30 got thrown into reality TV and was like, wow, this is a rude awakening. All right. If you have doggies, you know that there is no panic, quite like realizing you suddenly don't know where they are. And knowing Pino and Ramen, if they ever got out, I don't exactly trust them to be the ones figuring out how to get themselves home. So that's why I was excited to try FI. FI makes the world's smartest GPS and health trackers for dogs and cats, trusted by millions of pet parents worldwide. FI answers the two things that you want to know, where they are and how they're doing. Now, I love that I can see where Pino and Raman are in real time, even if I do know where

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Starting point is 00:22:58 How did this happen? On Batwoman. No doubt about it. Did x-rays beforehand to get ready for stunts and stuff like that. so I know exactly when it happened. And I can tell you where it is on the first episode because it was in the pilot. And it was after we'd already done, you know, 15 hours of shooting and I'm doing all the stunts in this one day and we're just sort of finishing off the end.

Starting point is 00:23:19 And we don't have a stunt director. He had to, you know, quit and we have a guy that has never directed any stunts. And everyone wanted to do something different, including like in the, I was basically, oh, sorry, I was basically lying face down on the cement, head to the side as like a knocked doubt version. I get lifted by two rabbit goon guys, but they kept getting the lifting wrong. So I'd be like half up, half down. We did that bunch of times. Finally, we got a good take and then we reversed coverage. And they wanted me to be doing it all, even though I wasn't on camera. And I was like, guys, I can't, I'm hanging like from my neck and my arms, my feet aren't on the ground. And then I'm

Starting point is 00:23:58 getting hit in the head with the baseball bat. Like all of this is hurting. And I was like, I can't feel my body. And they're like, well, bring you down. And we'll put you back up. And then when I got down, I was like, I can't go back. I can't get this off and put it back on. We either have to like do one more take or, you know, and then they try to do like 10 more takes. And then I remember the moment somebody else grabbed my head, which was not rehearsed. Yeah. And lights went off.

Starting point is 00:24:22 You're kidding. No kidding. When was this? Pilot 2018, so March 16th, 2018. How do you feel from that? Oh, you don't really. Yeah. And you especially don't when some, when the person that has injured you or the production

Starting point is 00:24:40 that's injured you says, you know, don't, we don't want this getting out. We're in the middle of a merger, you know, merger with discovery. We're going to handle this in-house. Like, you're our family. And I was like, please recast. Yeah. I can't recover, bounce back in this time. Like, you've just broke my neck and you're telling me I might be paraplegic.

Starting point is 00:24:57 Oh my gosh. I'm not that keen. Yeah. Like, I'm moving forward. Wow. And it wasn't like the first safety issue. I'd been stabbed in the eye, like, with a butterfly knife. inside the costume like I think like that much closer I'd be blind so I was like I don't need to do

Starting point is 00:25:11 this like I love that woman and I want so desperately but not that much oh my gosh yeah I like my life more I like my life yeah yeah so then that probably I mean we'll get to special forces because your body probably is like how did you I don't even we'll get there we'll get to the to the special forces I always bow down to people who do that show because I don't think I could do it you haven't done it I don't think I could. I really don't think I could. I really don't think I could. I say all of my friends and people who have done it who I know are like, yes, you could, Caitlin.

Starting point is 00:25:44 Because I know as soon as I show up there, I would get in the game and I know I would do it. But I just have such severe. I never had this until recently, claustophobia. Oh, yes. And I never had that until, honestly, like the last like three years. Wow. It came out of nowhere for me. I don't know why.

Starting point is 00:26:03 it never bothered me before and nothing happened to have. Interesting. Yeah. I don't understand it. So then I just go, oh, I'd freak out. And I'm sure everybody does at that part in the show. There's only that one part, though. Like, you don't have to.

Starting point is 00:26:15 I was more worried about the heights and that ended up being like all the parts. Yeah. Did it, was that kind of like exposure therapy? Yes. Yeah. And honestly, and you'll probably get, if you do it, which I think you should, you'll get the same benefit of going, walking in and you won't realize it, unless you do it, but you'll be like, wow, is my biggest fear of

Starting point is 00:26:33 really that they're going to treat me as bad as a bachelor? Yeah. That will be your, like, you'll be like, am I going to be manipulated and like, you know, whatever your big sphere from that is? And mine was like, are they going to kill me on this set? Because I've already signed a waiver saying like, all good if you do. Yeah, exactly. Thanks, you know, for having me.

Starting point is 00:26:50 I was going to say, it's probably in the contract. It is, yeah. Of course it is. It was in the bachelor contract, you know, because you never know. Because they're putting you, I've seen people do. I don't know. I didn't have any, like, too scary a dates, but I've seen people like scale building and go bungee jumping and like, yeah, you have to sign your life away on all these kinds of shows.

Starting point is 00:27:07 Not for love. No, no, no, for anything else, but not for love. But I did want to talk about what you created yourself, break free. At the time, I watched it. It's powerful. Thank you. You created, it, directed it, did all the things, produced it, everything. For people who don't know, could you explain why you did that video and what that video is?

Starting point is 00:27:29 So break free, wow. How many years ago? Many, I guess. Yeah. Yeah, I was, I mean, it went very viral. It did go very viral. And I basically had about three weeks left of my US visa, the first and only one that I'd probably ever be given.

Starting point is 00:27:44 Because if you come to the States with a visa and you don't work, you can't really say, can I come back again? Like, I'm such an extraordinary alien. They're like, but you didn't work. Right. So you've got this sort of one chance. And I was like, two, three months before my visa would be over and I'd have to go back to Australia and that would just be that.

Starting point is 00:28:01 And I was like, no, I'm going to make. this film that I've wanted to make forever, which was sort of based around, A, my my sort of experience with gender neutrality and gender fluidity, but also that I just didn't feel like anyone ever knew what to do with me. And I just sort of thought, how can I sort of explain? Like, it's not that hard. Right. This is what you do with me. Like, there's more that I can do that I might not be the like super pretty, super femme, super, you know, whatever. But that doesn't mean, there's not like so much interesting stuff about me that we can't still bring to, you know, screens and represent different people. And, you know, and so I just thought if I get this out,

Starting point is 00:28:39 if it does okay, I had maybe 40,000 followers from like a 10 year, you know, experience in Australia and thought, even if just every person watches it or like half of them do, that's, I've done my job, that's all I needed to do. And then it just went gang, but, I mean, I couldn't believe that it went so big. And like 100 million views on Facebook very quickly. and then I added it to YouTube. Yeah, on YouTube it was like 500 and some million. Yeah. Wow.

Starting point is 00:29:05 So I really, but more than anything, I mean, I'd used almost the last cent in my bank account, you know, to put that thing together. Everyone worked for like nothing. I was a director, but then the cameraman I hide ended up being like, I'm not giving you the footage unless you, like, say I'm a director and I'm like, oh my God. So I couldn't get the footage. I was like, you know, so young here.

Starting point is 00:29:26 Yeah. So I was like, fine. So we did that. But then when we won a bunch of, awards, I refused to go on because I didn't want him winning as a director because he didn't direct. So I was like, no, we don't need to do that. Or, you know, I don't need to do that. Right. So there was some, like, I always wanted to be able to tell more of a story like that in a different kind of way. And I think like, Orange called and we're like, hey, is she

Starting point is 00:29:47 interested in maybe auditioning for this? And I'm like, that's the only show in the world that. I love that. Yes. So because of that video going viral, that's how you went on Orange's New Black. So after so long of it, you're on your last cent. You're putting it all into this one video. You're giving it your last shot. Otherwise, you're back to Australia. You do it.

Starting point is 00:30:08 It goes so viral. And then you get a call to go on Orange's the New Black. That's amazing. So what did the audition process look like? Well, first, I didn't think it was real because I had to like, I didn't have an acting agent or anything at the time. Yeah. How did they get a hold of you? They went to my DJ, like, hosts, manager person in Australia.

Starting point is 00:30:26 And he was like, Orange is a New Black. Have you heard of it? And I was like, yeah, I thought it was like maybe an orange is a new black like block party DJ set or something. And I was still excited. I was like, maybe they're there. Like maybe. And then I opened it up and it was a script. Wow. And I just, I mean, what do you even do? Like, well, I was ecstatic, so excited. Did everything you shouldn't. I literally wore a jumpsuit. Like, I didn't know. Yes. Yes. Yes. But I had like a, you know, Park City. You committed to the spirit Halloween.

Starting point is 00:30:59 Yes. Spirit Halloween. Eye drop here. The orange jumpsuit. I love that. They loved, I mean, they, they hired me, which is just, and that was so wonderful. Genji Cohen and the whole group and all these amazing women. And like that was, you don't get a better first opportunity than that, I don't think.

Starting point is 00:31:16 That's incredible. And what are you drinking? Coconut water. And I don't want to hear it from anyone. It may look like rosé, but it is not. You're like talking about like your trauma and you're like, it's drinking a rosé. Yeah, right? And they're like, well, she's really.

Starting point is 00:31:27 letting things out here. It's coconut water. That's, yeah, orange is the new black. Okay, was there something that you had to do to prepare for that level of fame that you didn't expect? Like, what happened? Whatever it was, I wouldn't have done it. It, you know, it was weird because on the one hand, I knew that I'd worked for 15 years, like in a different country before even kind of coming here, and I knew that I'd achieved some kind of success, but nothing of that level and certainly not the, like, virality of it all. Right. And it was. tough. Like, I don't know. I guess what were you, what were you not prepared for?

Starting point is 00:32:03 Wasn't prepared to be sort of fetish, fetishized. Fetisaged. What am I doing? Fetish. What do we have happened? Fetishized. Fetishized. No? Is that it guys? Where's a producer fetishized? That's so funny because then my brain, I was like fetish or ches. I don't know. But I was so unprepared for it. I can't even say it. Yeah. Yeah. The kind of being sexualized on a massive, where people sort of saying I,

Starting point is 00:32:27 gay for her and that sort of thing. On the one hand, I was like, wow, the thing I've been bullied about and people didn't accept about me is now being like highlighted and supported. That's awesome. So, healing. Explain that more. What do you mean? So like when I was at school, I'd get bullied for being gay and for having, you know, the single parent and all the things that they do. And then it was kind of interesting that after sort of not having success, doing break free and then Orange comes and they're like, do you want to play the first ever gender neutral or gender non-binary person? You know, it was just sort of like, wait, we're celebrating the thing that people have hated about me. And now, on a global level, like there's all these people posting like I'd be gay for or what I can't

Starting point is 00:33:07 remember exactly, but it was like just a big thing. And on the one hand, I was like, yes, because it doesn't matter if it's a fad or people are just throwing it around in my opinion, because it's still taking away the like nastiness of people using those words in a derogatory way. But at the same time, I didn't get to experience like a closeness to any of these people because. it did feel very based on like my appearance, which I'd never really taken much interest in because I look like my mom and my dad. Like eye splitting image, you know, and so for me, I just see, for many years, just saw them and just wasn't interested in highlighting it.

Starting point is 00:33:41 You know, that's why I've always shaved my head, tattoos, short hair, pink green, whatever. Yeah. And now, actually, now that my dad just passed away, and I, you know, very sad about that, we didn't have a great relationship, but towards the end, the last few years, I decided to, like, just see, you know, and so we had some communication. Oh, I'm sorry. No, but I think it was right.

Starting point is 00:34:00 I think it was how it was meant to be. And he lived a huge, he lived a big life. You know, he was a gangster. Really? Okay, a little Pinot and ramen. They somehow always find new ways to make me question what they're doing. I swear I'm just constantly watching them. Like, should you be eating that?

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Starting point is 00:37:08 Okay, I want to talk about you had this period where everything got very big, very fast, but more recently, you did almost the opposite. You became much more like selective about when we saw you, what parts we got to see of you and what you chose to be a part of. So was stepping back something that you consciously decided to do or did life essentially kind of make that decision for you? Life made the decision for me, I believe. Yeah. Or maybe the industry itself kind of made the decision because it's such a specific thing. I had great people, great opportunities, worked with some of the greatest people in the world.

Starting point is 00:37:48 Like lots of wonderful things. But also there's a toxicity of the whole entire industry that's just unavoidable. And if you're, if you're self-aware, if you've had experience in the past with predatory men or predatory women or you just have a pattern recognition or a way to sort of get to that place quicker and meet someone and go, oh, I don't like, this is bad. And you don't have much of a choice at that point, you know. And so when I did sort of get treated so badly from that batwoman situation during the merger or whatever, because I didn't want to be an actor with my whole heart from a young age, it was just like, I guess that's, sun now. Like maybe it was, the purpose of that was to get me out of the house because I was still getting beaten at home, get me into a different city and then I got to get into a different country and get survival and get some time and some experience behind me. And then maybe I'd go back now

Starting point is 00:38:42 and become a child psychologist. And that's sort of where I feel my heart's more at, whether it's a podcast in addition to that. And we talk about, you know, I get to talk about child abuse or how to like support young people or older people that are dealing with their, you know, history. that stuff I could wake up every day and do. Wow. Like no problem. So you're fully going back into that. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:39:03 That's awesome. Like I think that I think I was meant to leave sooner. I think I was meant to leave before Batwoman because I didn't actually want to do that at the time. I knew it was time to go back and do my stuff, my like self-good stuff. And so I think I was meant to leave then. Yeah. I just, elderly dogs. I didn't want to leave them.

Starting point is 00:39:20 I didn't, you know. And there's sort of that thing of maybe if I just wait, someone will be like, wait a second, that situation wasn't okay. But, you know, it didn't happen. And because it wasn't a dream, I don't feel that brokenhearted. Like, that's good. Okay, I like that you don't feel brokenhearted. And do you feel that you need or got any closure from it?

Starting point is 00:39:39 No. No, from like the accident. No, I'm still paying for all the surgery. I just found out that the discs in my neck have been recalled. Gosh. So they're exploding. You're joking. No.

Starting point is 00:39:51 And in the state, sorry, in the UK, they find you, they connect with you. they send you the information saying that, you know, your neck is now being recalled. You should go do these tests that don't cost anything to monitor. In the States, I don't tell you anything. It's just like not their responsibility. So someone from the UK had to write to me and tell me, because she'd come to the States to get my exact surgery because I'd gotten it. Wow.

Starting point is 00:40:13 And so now I'm feeling guilty because she's got these two bad discs. And I was like, this can't be right. Google it. It's a massive story. Oh, my gosh. And nobody even called me to say, hey, by the way. You know, so I went and got some extra. phrase the other day and they're all in the wrong spot and they're all pinching things and one of them's

Starting point is 00:40:28 been grown over and it's like who's going to pay for this me again like are you kidding and there's nothing you can do from my experience no oh my gosh but there has to be like this shouldn't be legal but there's no one that's like hello hello sag they haven't like won't respond it's so bizarre mourner brothers was a giant conglomerate now they're being picked apart and like sold for parts and so they should yeah yeah oh my gosh that's just that feels illegal. It is illegal. It was fully illegal. Yeah. Yeah. Still. Legal. When you step away from the kind of machine for a while, what do you start realizing about yourself that you couldn't see while you were in it? How much more value I can offer the world as a human and as a resource and as a support that I could not

Starting point is 00:41:14 even do in this industry? Like I wanted to and I, but was never given the opportunity. Yeah. The only films that made me think, oh, maybe I could was girl interrupted and seven. I'd seen seven when I was like maybe 10. Yeah. And my mum had like the drag me in, you know, to watch it illegally, obviously. And I was like, whoa, I didn't know that people told these stories. Yeah. And then girl interrupted.

Starting point is 00:41:38 I was like, oh, wow, maybe that's like cool. That'd be a cool job. But I'd never be able to do it, you know. Right. And so then that was it. But then when the psychology thing didn't work out, I was like, maybe I could do seven and girl intro. You know, and I've just really run around with guns for every film and been like, pow, pal, pow.

Starting point is 00:41:53 Yeah. But with not that much. I could have done, I think, a lot more had I maybe just started something else earlier. Right. I don't know if necessarily you even cared to grieve that part of your career or have you. I think it'll always, I don't need to grieve it. Because even though I don't have money or anything anymore or any of the things that I was worked really hard for, it was still, it still saved my life.

Starting point is 00:42:15 Right. And then try to take it again. But for the most part, I probably wouldn't be here if not for it. So I kind of have to be like, all right. That's true. Thank you. That's true. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:42:25 That's a hard, I get what you're saying. But that's really, that's a beautiful place to be where you can look back and say thank you for that, even though it. Yeah. There's no mistake in the fact that like I didn't, no one really deserves, no offense, but like nobody deserves to be red carpeted and on film sets and flown here. And like, it's, if you get that opportunity, you're very, very lucky. Yeah. It doesn't even happen to the most talented. It doesn't even happen to the, like, there's people in the world that will never get the opportunity who are way more.

Starting point is 00:42:55 interesting. Oh my gosh. I think about that even just like going down Broadway in Nashville seeing the amount of talent that is on Broadway where people deserve the world because of their just vocal talent. Yeah. And then other people get it because they look a certain part and this manager like the yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So it is. It's really it's too bad. When you did step away, there's obviously speculation about where you went and why. Did it bother you watching people fill in the blanks when you know that there's so much that they didn't know? No, because I know how the brain works. If we have an unanswered question, we have to fill the answer. Like, it's just, otherwise we can't like move on to the next task. So people sort of wanted their own closure of like,

Starting point is 00:43:40 well, I guess this must have happened or, you know, but there was a lot of stories. The main story just kept being from the papers saying that I'd moved back to Australia. Is that they said? Yeah, like seven times. They even have photos of me in front of someone else's house. No. An Airbnb that I rented like twice and they're like here she is at a brand new property. Yeah, like three times. And I was like, see whatever they want. I've not even been back home. It's been COVID. I haven't even entered the country. Like, is this, are you guys trying to make everyone think that I've left so that I don't get any more work or like, what's the point? And then they've released it again last year saying that I've, same place. I'm like, guys, I still haven't moved into this poor person's

Starting point is 00:44:16 house. Like it's just having their, you know, house violated and all these internal pictures. Oh my gosh. Yeah, what is your relationship with the media? The people in the media, because you're technically in the media, I'm technically in the media. Some of them are incredible, wonderful people. I just think that, unfortunately, the heads of the heads, the conglomerates, the, it's just not viable. It's not like a conducive environment for truth-telling for getting to the bottom of, you know, helping society. And lots of gimmicks and lots of clickbait. Lots of it doesn't matter if it's true or not.

Starting point is 00:44:56 Doesn't matter who it hurts. Doesn't matter. No. What's the point? It's so disgusting to me. It's like I understand that that's that is a machine and a business, but it is so disturbing. But like why? I know.

Starting point is 00:45:06 I always wonder how people like lay their head down at night if they're part of that and seriously. I feel good about what they do when they're. Because I get journal it. Like that was maybe if I wasn't so keen on psychology, I could have maybe gone into journalism, you know? It seemed like a really good, incredible career to like make change. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:45:23 Yeah. How do you do that go to school and then end up at like wherever.com being like, oh my God, is such and such gained weight or have, you know, like, you know, how pathetic that that's what people care about. Like, you know, if you went into journalism and you want to make a difference, you're not getting the clicks. Yeah. You know, the clicks are the sad like before and after photos of females and what they, like, gosh, what is, what is the worst headline that you've ever seen about yourself that actually bother you? I don't even remember. There was one that was really weird at one point that was quite not solid, but it went viral, which was that I was born a man. And I was like, well, then why would I go into all this trouble?

Starting point is 00:46:01 What do you mean? Immorally, bastards. That's so true. But no, but I will tell you, and I was worried earlier today I had to do a whole bunch of press for special forces and I haven't done press in, you know, 100 years. But I was nervous because I've spent a good part of the last two years coming for them and standing on their necks. Right.

Starting point is 00:46:22 And mainly my issue, it's still nothing to. do with me. It's got to do with the way they were word things. If they're wanting to tackle serious topics, which I am so far. I was like, people, great, us, great. Do it. Like, do talk about pedophiles. Talk about, you know, school teachers and whatever's going on here and the industry or whatever. But if you're going to do it, like have the same level of care as like a real journalist. Like, don't be like we can just talk about this as the same way. Like, you're going to have to use the R word. You're going to have to say rape. You cannot say that a 55-year-old man, had sex with his 12-year-old daughter.

Starting point is 00:46:55 You cannot say that. It is not legally possible. And I will come for their necks every single time. And then I was like, oh, I wonder if the in-person people are really close with the, like, social media people or not. But, like, either way, I don't regret it and I would still keep doing it. Absolutely. Why are we doing this?

Starting point is 00:47:12 This is so embarrassing. And they're often women. Of course. Like, what? It doesn't make any sense. I can never wrap my head around it, but how did it go? I think they were pretty good to me, actually, because I think that they, know that I just don't care.

Starting point is 00:47:25 Like, I'm not going to be like, hi, please say nice things about me or please. See, but that's good. That's making a difference. That's standing up for yourself and that's being strong. And I know like, I think so much of your public identity has been about being strong. But that must be exhausting too. Yeah. And I think I was strong in sort of ways.

Starting point is 00:47:44 It was basically when I got MTV. I sort of had a moment where they said, okay, so you're gay and how are your parents, you know? And I'm like, my mother and I don't talk, because at that time, I was ready to make the move. And I would have had they let me. But I didn't because they wouldn't. So they sort of said, gay, that's big. Do you want to say your bye? And I was like, no, because I came out when I was like 11.

Starting point is 00:48:08 People are going to call and be like, this person is a lesbian. Like, we know. And a liar now. Yes, and a liar. So I was like, no. And they're like, you'll lose half the audience, maybe men, whatever. I'm like, don't care. Then they will like tell us about your family because that'll be.

Starting point is 00:48:22 another big, you know, like your mom, your dad. And I'm like, okay. Wait, why? Because they were about to do a big, you know, when you sort of explode over night, so to speak, which I had in a role that really hadn't in the past exploded like that. But it just became, I guess, a big deal because I had tattoos and was a lesbian. Yeah. Whatever.

Starting point is 00:48:42 And I didn't have a manager either at that time. I just auditioned them one. So they were sort of like, we want to protect you. You'll need to get a publicist, but we've got in-house people at the moment. But you don't really want to. if you say these things, all of it, then it will distract from your, like, job. Like, you just got the job. You're going to learn how to do it in front of people.

Starting point is 00:48:59 You're only 20 years old. Like, you don't need to, and it may not be the best thing for you to do. Like, people may not, they might use it to hurt you. And that all kind of made sense. But I was like, yeah, but I'm gay, so that's fine. But I just won't do the parent thing. Yeah. And we, like, went back and forth talking and they essentially gave me a piece of paper,

Starting point is 00:49:15 which I agreed to that just sort of said, how was it? It was like, it was my mom and I against the world, like us, against, you know, us or nothing. And my dad wasn't great. I think I was just like, my dad wasn't great, but we left when I was young. And that, I've just been saying that same story. Wow. Every single time for the last 20-something years.

Starting point is 00:49:34 Yeah. And none of it's true. Wow. So, you know, I was like, wait, I don't want to lie. I need people. And then it's like, I'd have to end up telling the biggest lie of all. And that is what killed me because every time I stood out, you stood up for bullying, mental health, for domestic, you know, violence.

Starting point is 00:49:52 sufferers or anything. You know, I felt like, but how, I'm still not telling them anything. Like, I'm telling you, like, I know what it's like to be depressed. I know what it's like to be suicidal. Yeah. But I still haven't, I'm not even telling you my story and all I want to do is tell you. And they, you know, because it wasn't something that they thought would work well or the public wasn't really ready for that sort of information at the time as well.

Starting point is 00:50:14 So long ago, I think it actually started to eat away at me all the way until, you know, recently. Yeah. I just went, oh my God, I cannot do. Why am I doing this? Yeah, yeah. And I think it was probably turning 40. Was a big part of it.

Starting point is 00:50:27 Isn't it so, when I turned 40, something shifted in my brain. Yeah, so you're 42? I'm 41. Hi, I thought you were younger than me. Well, really? Yeah, I thought you were like 39. Oh, I'll take it. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:50:37 No, something. And my girlfriend and I talk about this all the time, how something just shifted. Like, it was like the moment I turned 40. Yeah. And I'm like, oh, people talked about this, but I didn't know it really. I didn't either. I was like, but it is an actual. feeling and like something happened in my brain.

Starting point is 00:50:55 It has to be physiological. It has to. It has to. It has to. Oh, I'm here now. I have arrived. Truly. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:51:05 Truly. So did that feel like the right time to do something like special forces? Because I find it interesting that, you know, you become so protective of yourself and what is important to you. And I love that. But I do feel like a show, this show basically you have nowhere to hide. And that is, it can be like exposing in a scary way, but it can also bring so much to light that like you've dealt with, that you can deal with that you can send a message out. Is that kind of what you were thinking, saying yes to special forces?

Starting point is 00:51:36 No, but it was like that was the gift, you know, the never ending gift. But I really, look, I loved it when I saw the first season. Yeah. And I was hooked. And that's in Australia. So then, you know, a cut forward. Then we have it here. And it's like everything I've ever wanted in a show.

Starting point is 00:51:51 I love the nature. I love like mud and getting, you know, like just I'm an off-road kind of girl. And I've done those sort of survival stuff by myself. Like, love it. And then sort of hoped that I would feel safe in the production had to like really say to myself, what happens if you don't? You're just going to have to like, bye guys, you know, do the right thing. Don't push yourself too far.

Starting point is 00:52:10 All those things. Only to sort of think I knew why I was there and only learn why I was there when I got there. Completely different. Completely different. Really? Yeah. So. I'm going to ask why, of course.

Starting point is 00:52:24 Which I think it'll come out naturally in these conversations. But were you more nervous about letting cameras capture you as yourself? Because you're kind of like used to being, you know, a character sometimes. But it's a very raw version. When I got MTV, which was just to audition through like films and stuff, but we didn't have that many films. So I went to MTV, got that job as a host. And I was the whole time, I was like, I want to be an actor.

Starting point is 00:52:46 I don't want to be a host. Like whoopsie Daisy, but Lisa got me out of my house. but like there was too much of I'm reviewers and it was always this you know mask that you have to wear and I just wanted to be anybody else at that moment you know and there was a bit of an oversaturation and it felt that way for me and then I was like I can't do this anymore like guys I didn't want to be a host or like super famous I was like I was had a radio show a clothing brand I was hosting the Olympics like I didn't know what I was it was just too much and I was like I just want to go back to what I thought I was going to do which is acting yeah and they sort of went that's not going to happen

Starting point is 00:53:19 in this country because, and they were kind of right, I was like a Ryan Seacrest, you know, the radio show and the clothing, and they were like, no one's going to believe you as an actor. Like, it's just not. And the person that told me that was casting for Wentworth, which is like the Australian version of Orange. And I was like, no, but like my mom taught in a prison like that, she's worked in prisons her whole life. My dad's been in prison, you know, whole family. Yeah. I was like, that's, I would actually be able to tell this story, like from a real point of you, you know, and, like, carry that level of sort of attention. And they're like, eh, and then I got to the States and it was orange. That was the first call. Like, it, that's incredible. Yeah, it, it is.

Starting point is 00:53:58 But then, but so, but special forces, like, now I don't want to play another character ever again. Really? Because unless I get to play someone that's three-dimensional or, you know, like someone that's real. Yeah, yeah. Which I have had the opportunity a few times, but far and few between, I think. And did you feel that you got to be real and authentic in special forces? Yes. Yeah. But I just want to, I love to do that show again. Like, I just loved it.

Starting point is 00:54:25 Yeah. Okay, well, that's amazing. Yeah. It was really good. Was it, what parts made you the most uncomfortable? Having to ask for help. Ah. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:54:36 Very, very uncomfortable. And that was some of the stuff I learned. Like, seeing how easily and. And with like no skin off their back, people could sort of ask for help or ask to be accompanied to the bathroom or, you know, the things you have to do in the show. Yeah. And that I would be panicking at the thought of it. Like, no, maybe you just don't have to go to the toilet. Like.

Starting point is 00:54:56 Because you didn't want to ask for help. Wow. And having to come up against that only to obviously be met with like, of course I'd love to help you. Yeah. And it's like, oh, okay. Oh, we can. Yeah. You like, it's like your little child comes out where you're like, you know.

Starting point is 00:55:11 So what was it? that surprised you in the show of what, like what broke you down? What made you go? This is not what I thought it was going to be. I kind of was what I thought it was going to be. Well, okay. When you said earlier, you thought a certain thing. Oh, because, okay, I'll tell you why.

Starting point is 00:55:34 Yeah. When you watch the show, like, there's only so much you can imagine yourself in that position. Yeah. So you kind of do mentally be like, yep, got it. Okay, if we do this, got it. But then when you show up. on the first day, you quickly realize like, oh, we're hot, we're in wet clothing, we don't get any food. Like, it suddenly dawns on you that like, oh, this is going to be very hot.

Starting point is 00:55:55 Yes. And so then you kind of can see having watched other seats, you kind of go, wow. So no, how did those people do that? How did, you know, like people that I was very impressed, like even Denise Richards. Yes. Jumping from a moving boat to a plane at 52. Like what? I know. Bad ass. Like, the whole, everyone that's almost sure I'm like, you're badass. And I thought it was badass until I then like was in it. And I'm like, not only that, those backpacks are heavy. Yes, I've heard.

Starting point is 00:56:23 It just, so everywhere that I, that affected me and maybe more or less than another person. Yeah. You know, I'm vice versa because we're quite different. Yeah. It was kind of like, yeah, I guess this makes sense. Okay, you know when you're in the shower, your brain suddenly decides now I think is a good time to investigate something. completely random. So my latest shower thought is why do we say sleep like a baby? When babies are famously terrible at sleeping. Like who came up with that? You know, why are we still saying it? Why am I

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Starting point is 00:58:56 Now, these styles sell out fast, so don't sit on it. Don't do it. That's ZENNNI.com slash podcast promo code, podcast 15. Who did you find yourself connecting with the most? Probably Colin, like because we have a bit of a similar experience since our home, you know, previous home life. Yeah. But we, I didn't know anything about him before. It was just, we knew. What is his backstory? Kate, John and, I don't know what the show is.

Starting point is 00:59:26 I don't watch, but John and Kate Plus A. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Colin is Kate's son. But he has got an incredible book coming out about the experience of being like forced into reality TV, having an abusive parent. Yes. Oh, my gosh.

Starting point is 00:59:41 Okay. so you two connected. Yeah, that's, I feel like the show is obviously physical, but so much of it is also psychological, which, um, do you know anyone personally that was on this season? You know who I know is, and I just met him for the first time. And of course, I'm blanking on his name. He used to date like Pamela Anderson. He, um, it's a Baywatch guy.

Starting point is 01:00:01 Yeah. And he was lovely. And I didn't know he was, I didn't know who he was. Yeah. He was just a, um, it was my friend's parents boat that we were just having dinner with them. And he was there. And then at the end of the night, he was like. like, and I'm on special forces. And I was like, what? I was like, who are you? And then I just had it. But I just, but I know

Starting point is 01:00:18 people from the past like Sean Johnson who won last season. I know her very well. And I just find it like, I think mentally it would crack me open, which obviously is part of it. But what did they figure out about you before you wanted them to? Bastards. Like I genuinely think everything. Those men, I mean, and I take my hat off. They are superb. And that's the only reason why I would recommend this to anyone that ever comes to me because they really, they won't, you know, they're going to be yelling at you, but no offense, if you think you could finish a special forces course without anyone yelling at you, just in silence, like, go on now, complete. You wouldn't, you just can't.

Starting point is 01:00:55 You need them to be like yelling at you so you can walk across the type rope up in the sky. I mean, you need to be. So I loved them, but they, you just know, sometimes they'd even just look at you and you'd think, what do you know that I don't know? Isn't that crazy? Yeah. I feel like they just see right into your soul. And I think, yes.

Starting point is 01:01:13 And the interrogation, what is it? It's not the interrogation, the mirror room where they bring you in and sort of, they knew things that I'd never said before. Really? Yeah. Like what? Well, the first thing they asked me was, how do you think you're doing? And I, when I answered, which is my honest reaction, they were sort of surprised, but then they already knew why I thought that way. I thought that way.

Starting point is 01:01:35 I just didn't think maybe I was doing that great. And they sort of thought I was doing okay. Okay. And they already knew why. there was a discrepancy in our feelings on how I was performing. Wow. Yeah. And I was like, are you guys for real?

Starting point is 01:01:48 Come on. They really surprised me all the time with, it's a deep show. I mean, it really is, it really, it really cuts to the core of you. You're obviously someone who's learned how to survive really difficult things in life. Did you discover any coping mechanisms on the show where you realized, I've been doing this my entire life? Animals. Really? I have to, like, that's how, when people sort of ask like, how did you get through your child?

Starting point is 01:02:11 Like when people do know my story, I always say animals. Like that was it. I rescued birds, you know, spiders, whatever it was, loved all of them. Really? Had pet rats, had pet, like everything. And just loved them. And so, you know, even when we got, they were like, there could be alligators in the water. And I was like, really?

Starting point is 01:02:28 You're going to look at all the shit out of them. What sides are they? Like, oh, my God. And like, seeing a spider, for instance, like, that was where we were, it was the shower was sort of a situation. And obviously, as we're coming in and out, the water's just like, muddy. And I saw a couple of scorpions and spiders like freaking out because they're going to drown and like that's their. They live there. That's their habitat. We're there for like one week.

Starting point is 01:02:50 Don't, you know, and would get them on the little leaf thing and I'd walk them over and have a little chat as I put them down. But I realized how weird that was. And also I almost went at Shady because Shady was like, no, no, man, kill them all. You know, and I was like, don't you kill any of them. I would like, like, I must have been one of the smallest and he was one of the biggest. Yeah. But it's like it didn't maybe how much I would protect something smaller than me is a how I get through things. And obviously that's, it's, I'm wired that way. Yeah. But also it didn't allow me to maybe get as close to people for many, many, like it took longer. Because I'd be like, am I just talking to like bats and frogs instead of where's my recruits? But that actually makes sense

Starting point is 01:03:32 if you think about it. And also, um, I've learned that about myself is, uh, like what can't hurt me, I love even more. Like my dogs, I rescued both my dogs from South Korea. And I'm obsessed with them. And it's just this unconditional love that I can never describe. I mean, some people get it, of course. And people who have kids get it. But I'm like, it's another level of love that has just destroyed me in the best way possible.

Starting point is 01:04:00 But I feel like that's probably something for you with animals. You feel like you can take care of them. You can protect them. And they won't hurt you. And they want, well, I mean, unless it again, Spiders and Scorpeons. But not emotionally. That's right.

Starting point is 01:04:16 And if they do, it's because I must have been doing something wrong. It's not because they want to, you know, handpick me and be like, get that girl. I heard she's been through some stuff. Yeah. Yeah, with an agenda. Yeah. That's so true. Did you go into this with something you felt like you needed to prove either to yourself or other people?

Starting point is 01:04:34 No. And I think that was something that maybe surprised. Maybe it didn't. I don't know. But they was sort of like, and you know, this is a very. great show for people that want to like change the narrative or correct, you know, or show the world who they really are. And I was like, oh, that sounds wonderful. But I just really want to do this for myself. Thank you, but like, like, I had been so long since I'd chosen something that I wanted to do.

Starting point is 01:04:54 It really helped that my manager had sent it with a, this is obviously a pass. Yeah. So I could click it and be like, I am obviously doing this. Yeah. Immediately. Yeah. Because I, you know, it was like, okay, he doesn't want me to do it. I really want to do it. Like, you know, always wanted to, but now it really does feel for me. Yeah. And he's not going to, no one seems to care about what I'm doing anymore. So like, let me just go live my life. I cared when I saw that you were going on, I was like, yes, I can't wait. Yeah, no, that was. I really was excited and I felt like I'm, I don't know the ending and I don't know, but I was like, oh, this is going to be good. I did cry a lot? Did you? I did cry. I was surprised and it only sucked because you have to

Starting point is 01:05:32 have like nine liters of water a day to combat the amount of sweating. Oh, wow. The humidity was like 90%. So like you just, you drink and you're like, oh, so between the crying and I was like, oh, cry. I did blow my nose on my own clothing a few times. They got to do what you got to do. You got to do what you got to do. Was there anything that you shared or allowed cameras to capture that you would second thoughts about once you got home?

Starting point is 01:05:56 You're like, oh, I shouldn't have shared that. I mean, you're so vulnerable in them. Yes, but I don't even know what they're using or not using. Yeah. I do remember many things said and done and you don't. there's no escape. Like I knew that it would be tough. I never once thought it was like a, you know, they kind of help you when you get, I knew that it was. I know Carrie as well. Carrie Hart. So I'm like, I know this is legit. What did they capture that you're like going to

Starting point is 01:06:19 look back on and be like, oops, I was so vulnerable. I didn't mean to say that. Well, it depends on what they use. And I'm certainly not going to tell you in case they obviously don't use it. And then you're like, hey, we're going to get you back on the show to talk about the penguin situation that didn't make the air. Good point. Okay. I will say that when I walked. back into see people. Once you go from like the mirror room, you know, obviously go back to the course. And I do remember walking in and people's faces, they kind of looked and then they did the second look, are you okay? And then I just, I remember saying something like, no, I'm good. That's just

Starting point is 01:06:51 what happens when people ask me about my family. And they all just sort of like, don't know what to, you know, but that was what was magic because you do get to walk into a room full of people that are there doing the same thing as you and like, you know, yeah. And everybody's got a story and Everybody has a story. Did you find that there was some like therapeutic moments coming out of that? Yeah. Talking about everything. Yeah, but I think even more so like once you get home and you like reassess, like then you go back and side.

Starting point is 01:07:18 And I think once it airs even more so. But I today got to remember all the times Colin really helped me out. And he's a 22 year old guy. Yeah. Like he just knew how to demystify some things where I was going to make the same mistake I've made every time. Yeah. In my life and push it too far. And he'd be like, do you need to?

Starting point is 01:07:35 See, when people like that are forced to grow up really quick. Yeah. Yeah. And so I was like, oh, I guess I don't actually have to do. Yeah. Well done, boy. Well done, boy. And I love that.

Starting point is 01:07:46 I love that you had the same like epiphany as me from turning 40. And it's just like you do step away from being more of like if you're a people pleaser at all. You step away from that. So what happens when a lifelong people pleaser finally start saying no? She's practically unemployable, guys. I just feel like, don't you, and maybe this is just me, but I feel like you feel the same way, you like yourself more.

Starting point is 01:08:12 Yes. Yeah. Yes. And actually that was one of the things, the DS sort of said to me was along the lines of, huh, we wouldn't have thought that you lacked self-esteem. That wouldn't have been something we would have, you know, saying in you, have we not seen it. Right. And I remember sort of thinking, why would you expect me to have self-esteem?

Starting point is 01:08:33 or confidence. Those are feelings that I guess I had and that's what maybe helped me get through being like, wow, I did this thing, go me, there's some confidence, did this film, go me, that, you know, but that's not really indicative of like who I am or anything like that. And I didn't get to say it when they sort of brought it up because obviously you're like so distressed and can't get the words. But what I remembered and realized in that moment was, oh, I did, because he's like, have you always been like this? And I was thinking, yeah, sure. You know. And then I remember like, oh, maybe now that I've got self-compassion,

Starting point is 01:09:07 I actually can't have self-esteem because, you know, in that same, like, they're going to fight with each other. Yes. If I want to be compassionate to other people, which is most important, but also to myself, then there's an acknowledgement that, like, maybe I'm not as capable in certain areas. Maybe I'm not going to be as easy to, like, make a huge group of friends because I've been abused for, you know, most of my life. But, like, that's sort of, does that sort of make sense?

Starting point is 01:09:30 It makes a lot of sense. Yeah. It makes a lot of sense. And there's something else that you've said recently that really caught my attention when you realized you got into acting, you thought you wanted to tell stories, and you've realized that you might actually want to just tell your own story, you know? Yeah. So what made you realize that your own story was the one you wanted to tell?

Starting point is 01:09:49 And how are you going to tell it? Yes. I think I knew, well, when I was eight, I thought I was going to write a memoir. I thought it already lived like a whole life, right? And then I found out that another kid had already, it wasn't a memoir. but they'd written a book and now they were like the youngest bookwriter and for whatever reason I was like, that's it for me then. Really? Yeah. Funny. And then like by seven or eight when I'd been to a psychologist for the first time, then I wanted to be a psychologist all the way through. And then

Starting point is 01:10:14 when I sort of got like maybe I just go to the movie star thing, you know, maybe that's possible and I'll get out of the house quick. It was sort of like, but I don't want that, but I could turn it into the same thing where I get to tell my story and that's how I get to help people my age and younger. And so it was always in the back of my mind. And then as like new managers, like even when I got to the States, I was so desperate to tell the truth. Like I had to lie early Australia days, but maybe now I get to tell the truth. But no. The new team, the new man, it was the same thing. We don't think you should say that that will distract. People want to know less about actors, not more. And so I sort of thought, okay, yes, just for this initial part. And then I just kept begging and

Starting point is 01:10:54 begging until they were, you know, finally said a couple of years ago, yeah, I think you've gotten to a place in your career where you can finally live your truth. So tell me how. And they were like, because I was about to go on Jimmy Fallon and I was like, I don't want to do this again. I cannot go back on there and be like, my mom and I, so I agree. And they were like, okay. And so Jimmy's pre-producer calls. And they're like, we've got some questions. And I'm like, I am ready. I am boundered. Like, you come for me. Let's go. And very politely was like, oh, actually I think, I've already spoken about that in the past. I think we can probably move on from that and maybe less family questions.

Starting point is 01:11:27 And she was like, hey, what about these? And they were still about my mum. And at one point I just sort of went, sorry, I think there's a misunderstanding, but like I really wouldn't. I'd like to not talk about my mom. And then she was like, oh, is that because? And I was like, because what? And then she was like, because Jimmy would really like to talk about your mom.

Starting point is 01:11:46 Jimmy's mom just died three weeks ago. And I was like, okay, let's do it. really yep and so i just had to say the same you know because i didn't feel like there was any more leeway and i didn't know of now was the time to like i wasn't going to have that conversation because that'd be too serious for jimmy fallon yeah yeah i was just hoping to not have to do the whole it was great we had a fantastic you know yeah and i regretted having to lie and plus jimmy and i got along so well yeah and i was like we don't have a friendship it's built on a whole lie about us mutually loving our parents so much you know and like i don't feel like i've been

Starting point is 01:12:20 honest with you. Yeah. Or that you really seem me, even though I feel like you do. Yeah. It just, you know, and that was sort of the lot. And I was like, that's it. I'm not doing this. I'm just going to from now on, however we figure it out, book, podcasts, youth groups.

Starting point is 01:12:34 I mean, I've told people in youth groups and, like, fans at different stages of my life when I visited schools and done, like, anti-bullying and stuff like that. But never on a proper public level. Wow. Okay. So are you finally living a life that feels like yours now? I think I'm there. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:12:51 Like I'm not doing the job yet because I still want to do the study and I want to get in front of like young people. Yes. But I'm on that mission. So I feel like fulfilled and I feel like myself and which is scary. You know too right. So when you wake up in your 40 and you're like, this is me. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:13:05 Awesome. But you're also kind of like, whoa, who am I? Yes. No, that's like one of the most beautiful parts about 40 in my opinion is through your 30s, you're really getting there. You're really like on your journey of self discovery and acceptance and all these things of what you've gone through in your life and where you are today. And then 40, you're like, okay, I feel like life is starting now. Yeah. You know? Which is, it feels like a start.

Starting point is 01:13:29 Yeah. It's crazy. It does feel like a start. Oh, I feel like I could just ask you a ton more questions. But I'd ask them. Yeah. But I just, I really, really appreciate you coming on and just you know, being vulnerable and allowing yourself to do your first podcast. I know. Guys, I did it. I know. We're all so proud of you. you. Yeah, one down, none to go. So was it that bad? It was actually quite fun. You're very, I knew. This is why I chose you. That's so nice. I listened to you and I was like, she is very good at this job. That's like, that is incredible way that you can maneuver and question and all different kinds of people and all different parts of their life. And like, you just join them

Starting point is 01:14:07 where they are. Like, that's a skill. I hope that, um, I hope I did it in a way that you feel good about. Oh, I don't remember any of it. So, you know, I feel right. Well, you did amazing. I just, I thank you for trusting me with just a conversation because I know that that's always, you know, putting yourself out there and doing that after, you know, you're, you said you choose now what you want to do. And I'm honored that you chose to come on the podcast. It genuinely means a lot. And you're even like cooler than I imagine.

Starting point is 01:14:37 So yeah, I'm very glad I did too. I'm like geeking out up here, but I'm going to play it cool. I'm going to play it really cool. Everybody, you can watch Ruby on the new season of Special Forces, World's Toughest Test, and we'll be keeping an eye out for the documentary whenever you are ready to give it to us. I will... That's going to...

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